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Telerad Vs Employee vs Private Practice RVU rates
It seems there are primarily 3 types of rates you get as a radiologist, the lowest being telerad pay per study rates which are about $20/rvu. Private practice groups seem to average $60/Rvu. I am not too familiar with the employee type gigs for the big corporates like rad partners, envision, etc…but it seems those are $40/RVU? To add to the confusion, some of these corporates pay you telerad rates $20/RVU for reading at your own work station, but also offer employee onsite jobs at rates of $40+. Telerad at the 20/RVU is horrendous, but I wouldn’t mind doing some at the $40 rate, and $60 rate would be jackpot to me…What is the best way to find these kinds of jobs? Anyone have experience with these jobs? I assume most are overnight shifts? I know everyone says to find a private practice group and do telerad for them, but those jobs seem non existant? Anyone who has info on telerad for private practice groups or doing it at employee type $40/rvu rates, pm me please – whether you know of any job openings or if you simply have experience doing it.
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67 Replies
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Hard to pay 60/rvu for telerad. Why would the partners commute and deal w all the hospital inefficiencies and pay out same rate ?
35-40 can be reasonable in some cases. Id take that rate for telefad.-
Envision is closer to $20/wrvu. RP is mid to higher 20s. Dont think they get much higher unless you are IR.
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Radiology is such a mess. Full of dysfunctional, understaffed collapsing and selling out groups. Its so treacherous and crappy out there that I dont blame all the groups from selling and partners securing their future.
They can only squeeze us so much before we want to get out with our sanity preserved. Finding a stable position with ability to collect your Billings and wont burn you out is getting impossible in many areas.
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Best option. Join a private group. Prove your worth. And then negotiate a teleradiology deal.
60/rvu is a dream. 20/rvu is awful.
Reasonable reality in between.
We had a partner leave for unwise reasons, her choice for personal geographic requirements. But came back, and a compromise telerad deal established. Known quantity. Good person. Cant see a PP hiring someone out of the blue for this kind of arrangement unless completely desperate.-
Would love to do tele for my new group, but think we are well staffed in tele…
Hoping to reach a semi reasonable FI number then go tele, rates be damned.
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I talked to a large private group recently about telerad. Was told CT abdomen pelvis $36. Can you imagine? Read 20 and get $720?! I told them no way. These are final reads. Seriously who is reading for that?
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Quote from Cabinfever
I talked to a large private group recently about telerad. Was told CT abdomen pelvis $36. Can you imagine? Read 20 and get $720?! I told them no way. These are final reads. Seriously who is reading for that?
Ouch thats low … I get $45 and still feel robbed…. -
This 20 something per rvu final read thing is enabling all the cluster F situations in radiology now. I believe that the job market will not improve significantly until that changes. But how will it change? Is their ever going to be not enough people that dont cave and agree to that? How much slack is in that system? This might be the new paradigm.
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I make $15 per RVU at my current job in Salem Massachusetts
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Many telerads are working at abysmal rates, averages out to $20/rvu. Thats already well known. What I wanted to know was about doing the telerad at the $40+/RVU rate. Is this only for nights kind of jobs and is anyone currently doing this? Anyone know of any corporate entities that do this?
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Are you serious? That’s the lowest telerad rate I’ve seen so far.
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Im just happy to be working after that incident with one eyed willy at the lake.
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$15. That would be the lowest pay of any doctor. Nurse anesthetist and radiology PA make more than you. Ass
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MY point is except in rare instances fair paying remote reading gigs (30s per) dont exist. And furthermore its the reason the job market is still not good despite an sparent rad shortage.
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I agree, remote reading rates are too low. Sure, it is nice to work from your home and telerads is much more efficient than boots on the ground radiology, but the rates have gone too low. People seems are still willing to do it, however.
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maybe when rads decide that there is life outside of socal, the bay area and NYC.
but nope gotta live with all the hippies and make 20 bucks a CT. good plan your funeral -
rates aren’t too low when people are willing to take it. It just means they’re more desperate than you
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You have to read at least 100-125 telerad ct’s per 8 hour shift to make the locums onsite rate of 2-2.5k per shift. That’s an average of 13+ ct’s an hour. That’s extremely exhausting, not doable for me. I have no idea how you telerads do it and why you do it when there are so many unfilled corporate jobs available that pay better. Stop taking $20! Minimum should be $30.
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The normal bust pace of 100 exams mixed modalities is probably 60 wrvu
So for that you get $1200-1300 dollars. Thats just so unfair.
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Do what you have to do, I understand. But reading for those rates is holding back the job market big time.
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There is so much variability with telerad setups (practice setting, efficiency of software and Radiologist workflow, support staff, case and modality distribution, prelim vs final read, pay structure, etc) that it is probably easiest to compare how much $/hr you can make as a telerad rather than $/RVU. As long as you are in the range of $250-$300/hr, I would consider that a decent telerad gig, especially if you are reading outpatient studies during the day/evenings (not overnight).
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Has anybody tried their hands at daytime subspecialty remote reads as an individual (no middle man subcontracting)? Is there a market for it/rates? Sustainable?
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I know someone who does that for an outpatient imaging facility. It took him awhile to get it going though and a lot of cold calling around the country to make it happen. Not sure what he makes, etc.
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I know someone doing this as well, remote daytime subspecialty outpatient reads (can be read at their leisure with no specific time constraints/work hours), averaging ~$300/hr. Allows some fantastic flexibility and decent pay. You need the right contacts to get this setup, but once you get one of these gigs, it can be a great way to supplement income, work part time, spend more time with family, etc.
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I can read at a rate of 10 rvu per hour final reads with descent workflow. But I just cant sustain that for eight hours. Prelims would maybe could. Statrad for example reports are like a few sentences or a paragraph at most. Not sure what they get paid. Prob not much because that nighthawk work is all low bidder crap. Then you have the issue of every case double read by the Monday morning quarterback.
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My rate with my current tele gig is similar. Not a very integrated system. No speech software provided. web based RIS, etc.
Setup with day time work is much more optomized with PS360 and McKesson. Can go quicker.
Stamina is an issue. 3-4 at the above pace wears me out. To make good money, need to do around 180-200 hours of work like that, mostly nights and evenings.
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really – this argument again ?
RVU’s are measured differently in different practices. utilizing that as a criteria for assessing the pros/cons of teleradiology is just ignorant. [b]Plain Film [/b]hit the nail on the head. Way too much variability.
Lets say a brick and mortar radiologist works/commutes 2000hr/yr — 9 hr work day. 30 min commute each way. 50 hr/week. 40 weeks/yr. 12 weeks vacation. no weekends and no call…
I can speak for 4 of my telerad colleagues cause I have seen their 2018 1099.
1 guy is a nut. Superfast, good reports and quality – Only works 1500hr/yr 9 hr x6days/week//26 weeks/yr) – Made $512K.
1 guy is above average – worked 1728 hrs and made $414K.
1 woman who I know well has exceptional quality and reads at an above average rate. She actually works 2200 hrs/yr and made $492K
1 rad works only 1200 scheduled hours but works lots of extra weekends and holidays for better pay and cause he has personal reasons. Worked a total of 1850 hrs and made 487K.
so to cabin fever, IR27 and striker79 — telerad can be a wonderful and lucrative existence. If it is not for you… so be it… but 20wu doesn’t look so bad from where I am sitting. $30 or $40/wu would be lovely . Sorry if you all feel it is the demise of radiology… I will let my 4 co-workers know. -
almost forgot —
To cabin fever — I love having 50% of my stuff overread by a “Monday morning quarterback”. Better for patients and I get to learn from my potential misses. Win win for everyone. -
That is some serious BANK for working only every other week. Mind sharing what states they are reading from?
The numbers that are purported on here are you’d be lucky to make $250-$350K a year if you are a good teleradiologist. $500K? How are these teleradiologists’ quality of life? Do they seem stressed? Are they working days or nights?
An extra $200K at the expense of a nice life or worsened mental and physical health, I personally wouldn’t do. In any case, very impressive. Numbers that high would want to make one reconsider early retirement! 😉
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RadRunner, your post raises some questions:
– Are these rads at the median? Or, are they outliers for your teleradiology company? Seriously, if one joins vRad or StatRad, the question should not be, “How much can I make?” It should be, “What do people actually make?” Show me the money… Distribution, that is.
– 1099. Benefits? Profit sharing? Bonuses? Yeah, benefit of write-offs, etc, etc, understood! But in many brick and mortars, one can also write off business expenses pre-tax through the practice. (For most newbs, the write-off sell is non-existent to a wash)
– Brick and mortar v telerads, point made about hours, but for the cases you reference, days, evenings, overnights, or (god forbid) rotating through a combination of all?
– wRVUs on standardized CMS scale. Your point is very important though! When you are comparing jobs by productivity, make sure you understand the RVU scale. Get an idea of case mix and shift volumes too.
In a “solid”, “brick and morter” practice, in the “right” location as a partner and even employed, you can easily do as well or better than figures quotes above, especially with benefits, retirement, profit sharing/bonuses:
– Overnight, 1 on, 2 off (122 shifts x 9 = 1089 hours)
– Evenings, 1 on, 1 off (182 shifts (high end for evening packages) x 9 = 1638)
– Days with evenings and weekend call (190 x 9 = 1710)
Of course, you can also do worse, much worse, if any of the qualifiers I used are not present.
For me hours are an important consideration, but I also need to know when those hours occur, how busy they are, and what the pain factor is (think results communication, number of workstations, EMRs, professional autonomy, etc, etc). In addition, with recent family medical issues, having access to SOLID group benefits, particularly insurance, is also a VERY important consideration (Not you Re3iRth, you are financially independent and may end up with TriCare and a pension for life)! This fact is so important in our reality that taking employed or government jobs may be a really good strategy for some. Self-insurance, especially now, can become a real liability.
There are many great reasons to do telerad, particularly location and side-gig, but though far from starving, it is not the way to maximize compensation per hour or per RVU for the vast majority of us reading at reasonable rates. I respect the individual’s decision. Different strokes for different folks. But, please, let’s separate the sale from the reality. -
Telerad at 20/RVU is not for me and the majority of radiologists would do better elsewhere. Perhaps the top 10% would make more in telerad, but at a higher cost – 2-3x the amount of work done for the same pay and im sure those rads are exhausted every day. You talk about 30 min commuting each way as an average, you could spend 5 minutes commuting if you found the right place next to your job. I rather spend time commuting than working at 10 RVU’s an hour which only comes to $200/hr, you need to do 12 RVU’s an hour to get to the average radiologist pay of $250/hr. Telerad at $40/RVU I will take, $30/RVU I would do a little on the side to supplement income, $20/RVU No thank you! Getting back to the original post, where are the $40/RVU telerad jobs or who knows of the best compensated telerad gigs per rvu?
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If its the demise of radiology its for this reason. Envision et al are offering full time IR docs and full IR call to the smallest hospitals. Hospital then can hire easier cheaper hospitalists and intensivists and ED docs. Cost shift to radiology. A PP cant afford to pay someone 500k plus to generate $800 a day in revenue maybe at these small places. Its an amazing gig for an IR doc so they get them with ease. They are making that up and still generating a corporate profit off twenty something per rvu telerad.
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And btw the mega pp groups are playing this game to compete with corporate. Certain one in AZ comes to mind
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to be clear. This isnt about doing prelim overnight reads. Thats a necessary service to keep the whole system going.
This is about final reads and the random names on reports that make us all just a commodity that has been pirated by the corporates to enable their scam.
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Re3iRth — stressed and quality of life are subjective terms. We certainly read a lot more cases a night but the workflow and technology and support staff are so good it doesn’t feel stressful at all. Also – take break whenever you want for as long as you want (within reason…..). Work and live where you want…, no commute, no work hassles, greedy cherry picking partners etcetc … Important to some, not important to others.
NO ONE IS SAYING IT IS THE MOST LUCRATIVE JOB… was just pointing out to the many haters, doubters and unknowing folks that 250-300K may be the “average” but many rads make far more and have the lifestyle they choose. While others are commuting, dealing with meetings, protocols, angry consultants and other distractions and BS during the day — we get to read films. it is what we are good at, what we are trained to do and what we chose as a profession. as has been said — different strokes
NYC – always respect your posts… Not trying to compare salaries.. just pointing out that many rads do very very well at $20/wu and get to chose and control their lifestyle a little more than most. Not a sales job at all — [b][u]it is definitely not for everyone[/u][/b] — just clearing up all the BS and falsehoods people throw out on these blogs.
Striker — Commute away – I’ll take 4200/hr sitting in my house anyday of the week — guesss I’m part of the problem…sorry y’all -
that was a hopeful typo — $200/hr
If you do find a $40/RVU telerad job.. be careful and read the fine print. Could be 80% plain film. Could be bad platform, RIS or support. Could be lots of empty cue time. Good luck on your quest and keep the rest of us informed -
Just to clarify, for those examples you listed earning $400-500K per year, they are being payed ~$20/rvu? $200/hr.? Or something different?
I guess the conclusion I can logically draw is that this board paints a lot of things in a more negative light than they really are. -
I’d take $150/hour in heartbeat, then I will hug the person paying me. If I can earn that while in a different country enjoying myself, all the better. I would obviously expect more if they expected me to be stateside or go to a physical location that is not in my house.
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Radrunner, I respect your posts too. You speak for decision you have made for yourself and regarding a job I feel you genuinely like.
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I can see benefits of what your doing radrunner, but doing telerad during the dead of night is a deal breaker for many. Its 1 on 1 off plus additional shifts from what I have read. Seems like this model is phasing out with the improved market and becoming 1 on 2 off. Night work should pay a premium but doesnt in most cases.
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Completely agreed! And that is where the model has gone.
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Drrad – agree100% – as I have said many times before — I WOULD NEVER TAKE THIS JOB IF I HAD TO WORK GRAVEYARD SHIFT… unless geographical or family need…. You would do much better going in house (and avoid traffic and all the BS distractions that day rads have to deal with.
RE3iRth – rads read at different speeds and take different breaks and have different skill setsand different dictation styles. Some read 5 RVU/hr – some read over 20 in our practice. So yes — some make $150K/yr while others make over 500K….Different country — may not be so easy as many posts have discussed before. Tahoe, san diego, Miami beach, Hawaii… that’s all doable -
Radrunner, are you saying you can do 7 on 7 off evening hours at vrad and avoid dead of night hours? Is there a premium for 12 am-7 am hours?
Also, can you truly read at your own pace regardless of what the list looks like? If you read at a leisurely average pace then youll make low salary like 150-200k without benefits? Seems not worth it at that point.
How about the constant overreads? That must get really annoying. Some rads out there I bet constantly turn in all types of overcalla, insignificant misses, non emergent crap.
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Drrad123 –
We are a 24 hr/365 day service. we usually have needs for al time slots… mostly overnight for sure. Schedules can be very flexible. I know one rad who works 5 on/9 off 6 hr shifts. You don’t come to telerad to make money — that I think we have made clear through many posts. You come for autonomy, lifestyle and control of your time. if you are searching for money – go work in east cupcake Alabama or west texas etc – they pay extremely well. If you have a good paying job in a nice place to live with good hard working responsible colleagues… then you should stay there — these are getting harder to find.
As for leisurely/average pace – I don’t know what that is but my guess is that in PP they wouldn’t be too thrilled with that. Even Kaiser is starting to look at metrics and pay/bonus accordingly. In some PP, if you are slow (or leisurely) – you’ll be fired. usually not the case in telerad .. at least in our group. You will get fired for poor quality.
As for overreads — yes – it seems like our “partners/employers” are out to get us and we can debate the reasoning at another time. 90% of my Qa’s are incidental or minor stuff. That’s ok. you just thicken your skin a little and drive on. Some rads boil over at everything. I personally have bigger fish to fry in my life. -
I mean that if the list explodes, you keep reading at a comfortable pace Instead of speeding up to uncomfortable levels like some of us do on call. This assumes vrad has enough coverage at all the sites to handle volume spikes.
I know this is not a good gig for money (20 bucks or so an rvu) but if your working close to full time hours of a radiologist, you dont want to make 1/2 the average. Say your an average speed reader, is this even a job you should consider?
As far as QA, do they expect you to fall into some range? I know from my experience that some rads who use vrad have no hesitation to call the discrepancy line.
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Your schedule is your schedule. If you choose to read faster when the list is long — you do it. If you choose to stay late and help out, you do it. if not, you don’t… Autonomy…..
Vrad has had some turnaround issues especially in the summers and overnight. Improving, but its been a little hard — increasing volumes , not necessarily new clients.
what is average /means different things to different people. If you only worked true week on week off, 9 hr shift – that would be 1647 hrs/yr… which would be about 300K (for the “average” reader) …. but as discussed above – the regular PP rad works closer to 2000 hrs/yr (when you add in commuting)… at 2000 hrs – “average” vrad salary (as far as I know) would be about $360k……. no benefits but tax advantages…..
So if average PP rad makes $450K and adding in all other factors… the vrad pay would be about 25% less…. Not a small sum to be sure….
Qa is what it is.. cant control what some other rad is going to say about my work. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong. all I do know is vrad has the most robust and data driven QA system .. my guess would be of any medical group in the country. PM me if you want more detail -
To say vrad has had issues with turn around time is a massive understatement. TATs overnight in our hospital system have been so deplorable and even dangerous that admins and ED docs have forced our hands to look elsewhere for coverage (think, ZERO cross sectional cases read from midnight to 6a). Your description of autonomy in your position is very troubling considering the glaring lack of staffing and/or incentive that has led to this issue. It doesnt seem like read at your own pace should be tolerated in a company that is primarily responsible for STAT/ED cases.
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rad567 –
sorry that vrad did not provide you with good service. I hope you found a company that could service your overnight needs. Not sure what you mean by incentive? there is no incentive not to provide quality and expeditious service.
everyone reads at their own pace. safest way to practice. whose pace should I read at ?
again – sorry you had a bad experience and god luck with your search -
Yes, good luck on the search. The telerads market in general has gotten difficult even for those contracting their services. I have only had experience with 2 telerads companies in my capacity as a consultant (Not vRad), and it has been headache of late. The practice/health systems surrender their control in many ways, though they do at least get coverage. The best opportunity, if you have the scale, is to build an internal coverage model. However, to do that effectively, as DDRAD notes, a group has pay a premium, in time or money, or have maintained the discipline of call.
I would add night coverage has been an important driver of consolidation (consolidating insurers and health-systems and FOMO are more important though). A 3 man group paying to staff nights at 1 on, 2 off, would have to double in size–it is just no tenable. Compare that to a 30-60 person group that can spread the costs of effectively hiring and retaining.
Seems to me, by paying per click, the incentive exists to read fast, limited only by an individual’s sense of quality and the available QA processes and referrer feedback. Maybe you could even add a surge pricing model a la Uber, lol. The even better option would be to make sure the salespeople don’t get ahead of a company’s ability to recruit and retain. -
Radrunner,
Speaking of autonomy. I am curious the extent to which you have control over the states in which you’re licensed or facilities in which you are credentialed? Also, to what extent do you have control over protocols for US, CT, and MRI? Serious question. -
Ive heard about terrible service and quality issues with vrad… I think they need to up their pay. Its not a 2013 market anymore, I have a hard time believing they dont face recruiting and retention difficulties.
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They paid more in 2013.
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Let’s not turn this blog into the evils and pay issues at vrad. This territory has been well covered.
I’m interested in finding out about other telerad compensation. I know RP pays a bit more but they are well over 50% PF and their RVU’s are measured differently. Any other experiences out there?? -
How can Vrad up their pay? Charge the clients more. How are they going to do that? When will the market forces allow are require that? Because that is the linchpin for the job market recovery.
But thats has other ramifications. Envision and radpartners et al are funding their small hospital promises of IR coverage with cheap final remote reading. Judging by the ACR ads they both are looking hard for more lackeys to fill that need.
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Quote from Cabinfever
How can Vrad up their pay? Charge the clients more. How are they going to do that? When will the market forces allow are require that? Because that is the linchpin for the job market recovery.
But thats has other ramifications. Envision and radpartners et al are funding their small hospital promises of IR coverage with cheap final remote reading. Judging by the ACR ads they both are looking hard for more lackeys to fill that need.
But still I can not understand their business model.They have a high overhead. Also they have to subsidize their IR. They have to “give something” to the hospital to make their contract look better.
Add to that the fact that the middlemen want to make a lot of money (Afterall, it is their main purpose of operation). As a result, I don’t see how they can win against a traditional small private practice of let’s say 10-12 radiologist with a good service.The only way their business model makes sense is by “economy of scales”. IMO, this is why they have expanded a lot in the last year. Still it is a gamble for them. If they can not provide the promised service, they will lose big time (similar to how any big corporation go bankrupt).
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Are there any gigs out there where you can decide when you want to work/help on a list?
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Striker those other gigs pay a little more. Its still not in the 30s. Thats where they make their money and cover their de facto IR subsidy and still make a profit. And those are now final reads with more comparison and less one offf ED cases.
Hospital rad thats not a small private practice. Thats medium for sure.
In a small to medium PP you need IR docs that will read general. But the fact is you dont need IR at all if those smaller place guys will do basic needle stuff. Problem is the hospital ceo saves money and phone calls if there is a true IR doc 24/7. Just like every small to medium hospital does not need a neurosurgeon or thoracic surgeon.
The companies on the other hand are expecting them to read little or no diagnostic. I literally know two guys generating about $800 per day in revenue and getting paid 500k PLUS they get paid separately for call. And in these places its easy IR call. Basic needle stuff and venous access. No problem getting IR docs.
So as long as there are rads at home reading for 20 something per RVU the corporate system keeps generating profit EVEN with all the overhead. The diagnostic hospital docs are getting skimmed to. That 350 salary should be 500k. So thats the formula
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But many of the diagnostic rads being skimmed with lower salary are also probably the ones with the big payout so net effect proabably close to zero. It will be interesting to see what happens when the vesting period is over. Will these entities collapse? Will the rads stick around as volumes go up, staffing is short, and salaries not competitive? What suckers sign up for these gigs? Geographically limited, ignorant, fellows?
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The s*it will hit the fan when the vesting periods are over for these corporates. The partners / associates who got a pay out to stay on for some time will bail for better jobs, they will not be able to recruit at the same salary, and that’s when the trouble will start. Some will be stuck because of location / family etc, but they will have a rough time recruiting new hires.
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Assuming there are better jobs around. Some areas already have few decent non Corporate options,
If corps and universities keep acquiring more market share, then those low salary/high volume jobs will be the new norm. Not everyone can/wants to live in small towns to escape this trend.
Meanwhile, radiology is becoming more miserable as rvus primarily establishes our worth, and were treated like farm animals by these entities,
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Quote from Drrad123
If corps and universities keep acquiring more market share, then those low salary/high volume jobs will be the new norm. Not everyone can/wants to live in small towns to escape this trend.
Meanwhile, [b]radiology is becoming more miserable as rvus primarily establishes our worth, and were treated like farm animals by these entities[/b],
Yep sweatshop labor. And the $20 something per RVU mentioned in this thread is abysmal
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while i hate the idea of this, my reports will become minimalist at that pay level.
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This thread popped up in my email. Its been a few months guys.
Tons of real estate opportunities. Even more coming in 2021.
I see people are still complaining about $/RVU. What did I miss? -
Yes the telerad only companies like VRAD pay horribly. I’m trying to find out about the corporates or other entities who employ some boots on the ground and some telerads remote only gigs – Rad Partners, Envision, Riverside Radiology…Those seem to pay better, looking to get a range and more specifics on those.
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