[clickpenguin_460]

Thanks for your opinion.

[btomba_77]

Already multiple existing threads on the topic

[Unknown Member]

Agree though Atlas is a disgrace to our profession

Radiologist have made a lot of gains as far as our public perception the past decade

This guy blows it

[22002469]

Definitely didn’t need to click the link to know where this one was headed. 

[Melenas]

I’m not sure why he’s a disgrace. Why is having a different opinion about how to manage a pandemic a disgrace? 
 
Is he saying something that is unreasonable? 

[22002469]

Quote from peehdee

I’m not sure why he’s a disgrace. Why is having a different opinion about how to manage a pandemic a disgrace? 

Is he saying something that is unreasonable? 

 
Agree with Dergon, plenty of other threads discussing. But yes, he has been quite wrong over and over again.
 
From March 26th. 

[link=https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/26/widespread-isolation-and-stopping-all-human-intera/]https://amp.washingtontim…ping-all-human-intera/[/link] 

[b]There is massive uncertainty, but using Ioannidis mid-range fatality rate, this virus could cause about 10,000 deaths in the United States overall, overall, a number that would not be extraordinary news in the total of flu-like deaths every season.[/b] 

A pretty run-of-the-mill COVID minimizer. A combination of some rational points mixed in with goalpost shifting, incorrectly stated facts, and right wing talking points.  
 
I’m sure he’s smart and a good neuroradiologist, but he’s clearly way over his skis. No different than the countless other MDs that think they have some special epidemiology and virology expertise but unfortunately do not. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

It’s fun when for years people have been saying that radiologists should become more politically active so as to increase and protect the prestige of the profession.
 
Then a radiologist becomes arguably the top medical expert to the President of the United States during a worldwide pandemic.  
 
This is followed by people saying that the radiologist is a disgrace to the profession.
 
And people wonder why radiologist groups are gobbled up by corporations and why imaging reimbursements are constantly on the chopping block.  Zero political insight.
 
 

[22002469]

I’m all for increasing the visibility and political clout of radiology. But if you gave me the choice between:
 
Door 1: Scott Atlas as the face of radiology as Donald Trump’s right hand medical consultant during a pandemic
 
Door 2: Radiologist X at unknown time Y being a well known prominent radiologist on the national stage (with the understanding time Y may never come)
 
I think I would choose to slow play this one. Oh well, what’s done is done. 

[Unknown Member]

Im all for radiologist being politically active and its great if they use their imaging experience to advance the politics of radiology and medicine

But when you subscribe to pseudoscience and then people realize you are just a radiologist then it makes us look ridiculous

20 years ago most people didnt think radiologists were even doctors

Its a lot different today but Atlas and his quackery could set us back another few decades

[julie.young_645]

Quote from Chirorad84

…..just a radiologist …

 
I have no words…

[satyanar]

This is funny to watch. Even Frumi came back from listening to an interview with Atlas and said he is not that far out there and doesnt deserve the degree of criticism he is getting. 
 
Then they went on to skewer him for his political affiliation. Thats his sin. 

[Unknown Member]

Quote from Thread Enhancer

This is funny to watch. Even Frumi came back from listening to an interview with Atlas and said he is not that far out there and doesnt deserve the degree of criticism he is getting. 

Then they went on to skewer him for his political affiliation. Thats his sin. 

 
Agreed.
 
RSF, Rand Paul has gotten shot and beaten up as a senator.  Ben Carson has been called dumb despite being a neurosurgeon and a Cabinet member.
 
Part of being in politics is that you’re going to get torn apart no matter how reputable you were in the past.  The opposing half of the country is going to say that you’re a disgrace for working for this or that president, because they think that anyone who works for this or that president is awful.
 
But if you want to have a chance of winning, you need people in the game.

[kayla.meyer_144]

Quote from Thread Enhancer

This is funny to watch. Even Frumi came back from listening to an interview with Atlas and said he is not that far out there and doesnt deserve the degree of criticism he is getting. 

Then they went on to skewer him for his political affiliation. Thats his sin. 

I don’t think I said that at all.
 
Making stuff up to make your personal opinion point is a bit shifty.

[satyanar]

I went back and looked. The sentence is so poorly written I suppose I should take your word for the intent. It sounded like you were trying to say his position didnt quite reach a level that deserved the amount of ridicule he was getting. Could be wrong though. I will believe you if you explain otherwise. 
 
 

Quote from Frumious

  

Just listened to Scott Atlas being interviewed o.n the BBC.  

What a jerk doesn’t quite reach the level of criticism he deserves for his statements.

 

[mpezeshkirad_710]

I like Atlas

[Unknown Member]

How exactly could you misconstrue that statement as not far out there

Cmon man

[satyanar]

Quote from Chirorad84

How exactly could you misconstrue that statement as not far out there

Cmon man

Im waiting for Frumis explanation. My first post was based on memory. The way it read to me was if you listen to what Atlas actually says it doesnt deserve the degree of criticism he gets. I went back and found the quote. It is a bit ambiguous. 

[Unknown Member]

What a jerk

Doesnt quite reach the level of criticism he deserves for his statement

Seems pretty easy to understand

[satyanar]

Quote from Chirorad84

What a jerk

Doesnt quite reach the level of criticism he deserves for his statement

Seems pretty easy to understand

 
Beautiful. Kpack punctuation where none existed. That helps, I thought it was just one sentence. 
 
Then the second sentence. He deserves more or less criticism for his statement? Its a mind bender. I would rather have Frumi just tell me what they meant.  

[kayla.meyer_144]

Quote from Thread Enhancer

Quote from Chirorad84

How exactly could you misconstrue that statement as not far out there

Cmon man

 
 
Im waiting for Frumis explanation. My first post was based on memory. The way it read to me was if you listen to what Atlas actually says it doesnt deserve the degree of criticism he gets. I went back and found the quote. It is a bit ambiguous. 

Here is my full post. It is very clear that I believe Atlas is selling a political argument, not a public health medical one.
 
How could you possibly misread it?
 

Quote from frumious

 
Just listened to Scott Atlas being interviewed o.n the BBC. 
  
What a jerk doesn’t quite reach the level of criticism he deserves for his statements. He is political animal through & through making political assessments while hiding behind his “Dr” creds implying also he is an epidemiologist & basically calling the BBC interviewer not intelligent for not being able to understand Atlas’s alternate reality of COVID. 
  
His arguments can be summarized as, “Are you going to believe your eyes or what I tell you is real?” 

 

[satyanar]

How could I possibly misread a post when the first two sentences are missing a period and the next one doesnt really make sense if you read the words? As I said it was a political rant. I just thought you added the first sentence to distance the politics from his actual scientific statements. Like I said I will believe you once  you tell me. 

[ipadfawazipad_778]

Seems like people need to remember people have different risk tolerances.  I agree COVID is not the flu, but I also agree with this guy and favor pursuing herd immunity.  My risk tolerance is fairly high.  I like to think of Americans as cowboys, rather than a bunch of mamby pambies who can’t handle their old, obese, relatives dying a few years earlier.  Yes some healthy people will die also.  Stuff happens.  Not worth the lockdowns in my opinion which thank God I am still free to have in this country.   Feel free to disagree, it’s your right many have died to protect.

[clickpenguin_460]

Lefties dont want you to have opinions they disagree with.

#bidenharris
#cancelculture
#metoo
#BLM
#criticalracetheory
#climatechange
#globalism
#democraticsocialists
#1619project

American 2050. Where liberals rule and the rest of us can do nothing. Right frumi…chiro…dergon? That’s your dream?

[clickpenguin_460]

#covidshutdowns
#orangemanbad
#casesmightcomeback
#teacherswritingownobituaries

There are so many of these!

[Unknown Member]

Soooooooooooo its better to subscribe to pseudoscience he basically stole from the Bakersfield ER docs

[clickpenguin_460]

Why don’t you tell us why Atlas is wrong and why the NYC approach to continuous business shutdown and extreme mitigation is better for the country in areas that have already had their cases?  You spend a lot of time labeling others and mocking people.  Tell us why we should listen to you.  I’m open minded.

[dzerangel_635]

Quote from Cubsfan10

Lefties dont want you to have opinions they disagree with.

#bidenharris
#cancelculture
#metoo
#BLM
#criticalracetheory
#climatechange
#globalism
#democraticsocialists
#1619project

American 2050. Where liberals rule and the rest of us can do nothing. Right frumi…chiro…dergon? That’s your dream?

 
 
I don’t care about politics.  I have never even voted.  I believe he is a disgrace because he is letting his political beliefs influence public health policy.  It is unethical for Doctors to support herd immunity.  We have taken an oath to help patients not to let millions die in favor of the economy.  Furthermore, he has said things that are clearly counter to what majority of public health officials are saying.  He does not even have a degree in public health or epidemiology.  If we don’t want nurse practitioners to read studies, we shouldn’t be telling public health experts how to do their job.  How is he qualified to go on national television and say that all the experts are wrong?  To make matters worse, he has said things that are blatantly false.  For instance, he has said that children have a virtually zero risk of dying from covid or transmitting the disease.  Children have literally died from Covid! He is entitled to his opinions but it is negligent to spread wrong information in a time when people are already so confused.  

[ipadfawazipad_778]

It is not unethical to support herd immunity.

[kayla.meyer_144]

Quote from AKOMAN

It is not unethical to support herd immunity.

The question is how to reach herd immunity. By infecting as many people as possible until there are few left to infect? Or vaccines? I don’t count mitigation (masks, ventilation, social distancing, disinfectants (hands, surfaces, air), etc) as herd immunity.
 
Problem is in the 1st case of letting people get infected also means a lot of deliberate deaths (0.5% IFR? x 330 million people x 70% infection required?) Vaccines insure the lowest mortality and morbidity.
 
Willfully throwing people under the bus to get sick & die in order to avoid social sacrifice and inconvenience is what then?

[Unknown Member]

Can I bookmark this post for in a few weeks when Frumi says the Trump vaccine is unsafe and no one should take it?

[ipadfawazipad_778]

Achieving herd immunity is not willfully throwing people under the bus. Its understanding the bigger picture of society. Most people are driven by money. The need to put food on the table for their families. Our inflated incomes can keep us far from the reality of the average income family. When I speak to the average or below average income, I am consistently told COVID is like number 8 or 9 on the list of things I gotta worry about right now. I believe people deserve the right to work and that is way more important. People need to accept this is like a war and there will be casualties. I prefer to minimize casualties and believe by keeping people working a greater good will be achieved.

[jennycullmann]

Quote from AKOMAN

Achieving herd immunity is not willfully throwing people under the bus. Its understanding the bigger picture of society. Most people are driven by money. The need to put food on the table for their families. Our inflated incomes can keep us far from the reality of the average income family. When I speak to the average or below average income, I am consistently told COVID is like number 8 or 9 on the list of things I gotta worry about right now. I believe people deserve the right to work and that is way more important. People need to accept this is like a war and there will be casualties. I prefer to minimize casualties and believe by keeping people working a greater good will be achieved.

 
Seriously, countless lives are ruined by artificial, unsubstantiated lockdowns. Thousands more not getting treatment because of warnings of going to the hospital or fear mongering; delayed treatment or none at all for cancers, heart attacks, strokes. Alcohol/drug use up with suicides. And this guy has the nerve to talk about “herd immunity” with very small numbers of people actually dying is unfathomable or a disgrace?
 
Do these people even think? No wonder why the country is at it seams, you can’t reason with this cohort they are so mindless. That’s also why they only learn by (and first use it to provoke) violence — which is what they will get, sadly.

[afazio.uk_887]

Ok – no full lockdown – how about the minimal sacrifice of wearing a mask in public?? Trump-tards not even willing to make even such minimal sacrifice for the benefit of their fellow citizens and society.  Duhr-mu-liburty !   It’s a hoax!  5G cell phone tower duuuhhhh!!  
 
Morons, all of them and their apologists. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

WD,

Thats why following the science is not a credible path. People who question aspects of the prevailing popular opinion in the media are called bad names and idiots. Even on a forum populated by doctors.

[afazio.uk_887]

There is legitimate questioning and then there is being a moron…. most educated people know the difference.  If you believe the earth is flat you are not a reasonable person being skeptical…. you are a moron.  

[Unknown Member]

[Deleted by Admin]

[Unknown Member]

Try this: what if masks make things worse?

How could that be? A panicked throng of wannabe scientists screams. Youre a denier, a moron, we are the True Scienz priests!

Well, are the masks quality? How often are they worn correctly? Do people behave differently when they wear masks; for example do they social distance less because the mask protects me. This would lead to more infections, particularly if the mask were worn improperly.

But those people are stupid! The True Scienz people explode. You cannot ask questions that attack our True Scienz!

Would anyone at say, Stanford, be willing to even ask their IRB to study the efficacy of masks? Judging by their academic climate, youd get canned immediately for such an inquiry.

[Unknown Member]

The fact of asking if masks help in an epidemic of airborne Infectious disease in the 21st century is all you really need to know. Akin to asking if wiping after defecating helps prevent swampa$$.

You know, there really is no good settled peer reviewed science about TP and swampa$$. Never mind that it was settled millennia ago, one can actually factually state that there is no current settled science on it.

Theres really no good settled science on whether a closed door blocks more wind than an open door, and no good published work on whether walking around in life with no pants on and with your penis in your hand is a good idea. You know, maybe if you do it right theres an all cause mortality benefit…

[Unknown Member]

Wow

That was good uncle duke

[dzerangel_635]

I wonder if Dr. Atlas would be willing to do Lumbar Punctures on covid positive patients without wearing a mask. I suspect the answer is no.

[Unknown Member]

Oooooohhhh Im
Sure Atlas would have no problem ordering his resident to do a lumbar puncture on a Covid patient without a mask

[Unknown Member]

Uncleduke,

Ha!

Im old enough to remember when the surgeon general and Dr Fauci were telling us that masks dont help with COVID.

[link=https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-doesnt-regret-advising-against-masks-early-in-pandemic-2020-7]https://www.businessinsid…rly-in-pandemic-2020-7[/link]

[link=https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/08/neck-gaiters]https://medical.mit.edu/c…s/2020/08/neck-gaiters[/link]

But thats not what the media took away from his paper. Rather, news reports focused on one anomalous result his single test of the neck gaiter, which produced slightly more, and smaller, respiratory droplets than hed measured in the baseline, no-mask condition. Fischer and his colleagues, none of them aerosol scientists, speculated that perhaps this particular fabric somehow functioned to splice large respiratory droplets into smaller ones. If true, this would, indeed, make a gaiter worse than no mask at all.

…

Even Fischer expressed dismay at the medias coverage of his work. Our intent was not to say this mask doesnt work, or never use neck gaiters, he told the New York Times. This was not the main part of the paper.

[ruszja]

Quote from radgrinder

Uncleduke,

Ha!

Im old enough to remember when the surgeon general and Dr Fauci were telling us that masks dont help with COVID.

 
That was prior to the publication of conclusive evindence that SARS-Cov2 spreads in the 2 days prior to an individual becoming symptomatic. The initial assumption was that it spreads like SARS-Cov1. You may also remember the ‘dont touch your face’ part of the advice as fomites and contact transmission was believed to be a bigger part of the picture and it wasn’t clear whether masks may actually create a mechanism for spread.
 
Most of the people I encounter who keep pointing to that now revised guidance as proof that ‘masks dont work’ never finished high-school.

[btomba_77]

Most of the people I encounter who keep pointing to that now revised guidance as proof that ‘masks dont work’ never finished high-school.

 
And get their media consumption straight from Trump’s splenic flexure.

[Unknown Member]

Ive read enough history to know that doctors made fun of handwashing hundreds of years ago, until someone published a study showing that washing hands in between patients knocked maternity ward bacterial infections down to near zero.

Its been months. May I see the study that showed a before and after where wearing masks dropped COVID infection rates in a state, county, town or even nursing home?

[kayla.meyer_144]

So you stopped reading once you found something that confirmed your political bias, ignoring developing public health findings as nothing more than hoax misinformation deliberately created for election results. 

[Unknown Member]

This is the guy that still
Thinks hydroxychloroquine works

[Unknown Member]

This is how one can tell when one is dropping bombs on target. Nothing but trolls, sarcasm and penis jokes.

Its been nearly 6 months. May I see the national RCT or observational study showing a significant drop in COVID IFR before and after mandated mask usage in nursing homes?

Or is everyone too busy writing snarky letters to Dr Atlas?

[Unknown Member]

On the one hand, you seem to endorse germ theory of communicable disease, and on the other, seem confused or conflicted about mask wearing, a century old method for mitigating the communicability of those same germs. Let me ask you this, are you supportive of mask wearing in the OR? To my understanding, the principle in the OR is to mitigate respiratory droplet contamination of the surgical field, and in fact the whole OR. Im going to take a leap, and concede that you support OR mask wearing. Now, stay with me here, it gets complicated. Respiratory airborne illnesses, it is my understanding, are spread by aerosolized pulmonary secretions in the air, or alighted on solid surfaces, and then inadvertently manually transferred from one to another individuals respiratory portals, just like respiratory contaminants in the OR, but in this case, we are talking about less controlled circumstances than negative pressure ORs. Now, it has been established for some time, again, to the best of my understanding, that the nose and mouth in vertebrates are contiguous with the respiratory tract, the origin of the involuntarily expelled droplets that surgeons are so defiantly opposed to landing on their surgical fields (to the extent that, believe it or not, many will actually insist on changing sterile gloves after as few as one light touch of a single potentially contaminated area).

Oh, gotta go look at a Dx mammo. Ill try to get back to this.

[Unknown Member]

Funny you should ask.

[link=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih….c/articles/PMC4480558/[/link]

It is important not to construe an absence of evidence for effectiveness with evidence for the absence of effectiveness. While there is a lack of evidence supporting the effectiveness of facemasks, there is similarly a lack of evidence supporting their ineffectiveness. With the information currently available, it would be imprudent to recommend the removal of facemasks from surgery. Instead, in the medical field where common practice can so easily become dogma, it is necessary to recognise the constant need to maintain a healthy scepticism towards established beliefs and to periodically re-evaluate and critically assess their scientific merit.

[Unknown Member]

Its an excellent discussion. The evidence for wearing masks in the OR is actually quite thin. We do it because we are expected to.

Youve been here for awhile uncleduke. I expect more from you than sarcasm and penis jokes.

[Unknown Member]

I used both eyes to survey the Dx Mammo. Curiously though, I find little solid evidence to support that system of stereo viewing.

It wasnt a penis joke, it was an apt analogy.

Mention of genitalia is not de facto evidence of humorous intent.

[Unknown Member]

Did you just come on to me? Im flattered, but youre not my type.

[Unknown Member]

How about ortho wearing full ventilated helmet for joint replacement. Pretty good evidence there for improved infection control. And it meshes well with germ theory, and respiratory contamination. Would you have your TKA with a maskless surgeon?

[Unknown Member]

May I see the evidence?

The original question was for mask wearing in the community and in nursing homes, not highly controlled surgical settings.

I like this Dr Atlas more and more. This thread is an excellent example of the rage people receive for questioning conventional wisdom.

So far a lot of sarcasm, insults, poop and penis jokes.

[Unknown Member]

Rage? May I see the evidence?

I think Wm Buckley liked to throw penis into examples and analogies for effect.

[Unknown Member]

See the thread above.

Ill take this as an admission that you have nothing.

From now on your name is uncledookie.

[Unknown Member]

^agree. Rage on page 2 from several posters. No facts just insults and whining.

[jennycullmann]

When politics get involved, even though these types invoke the “scientific method” and “science” to try to disparage other people or groups who have different views (the basis of science) … they are the first to discard it. Ultimate irony, but that’s what leftist thinking does to you, it warps your mind.

[r.stolze_447]

The large majority believe masks can lower the number of infections and consequently the fatalities.  I don’t know anyone who believe it lowers the fatality rate once someone gets infected.

Quote from radgrinder

This is how one can tell when one is dropping bombs on target. Nothing but trolls, sarcasm and penis jokes.

Its been nearly 6 months. May I see the national RCT or observational study showing a significant drop in COVID IFR before and after mandated mask usage in nursing homes?

Or is everyone too busy writing snarky letters to Dr Atlas?

[Unknown Member]

TAP,

Viral load? There have been quite a few questions on that.

[Unknown Member]

Im looking for the study that goes something like:

We called 100 nursing homes in our local area. We asked for the number of patients that were sent from the home to the ED and/or were diagnosed positive prior to the requirement for temperature checks and masks for employees and visitors.

Then we measured that after we put mask mandates, etc. in place. The number of COVID infections went up or down by X after these interventions.

Semmelweis did this for hand washing and childbed fever in the mid-1800s. We cant do a similar observational study in 2020? We have to rely on uncledookies ideas of common sense and scatological jokes to guide us?

[nicolasvg.1003]

I think you ask for what is impossible to isolate on purpose, to bolster your argument.   Nursing homes took multiple steps at once to reduce risk of infection including banning visitors, emphasis of hand hygiene and mask wearing.  It is a disingenuous argument to discount the benefit of masks simply because that single element can’t be isolated.  What kind of study would you perform?  100 nursing homes where visitors were not allowed, strict hand hygiene enforced and masks mandated vs.  100 NHs where masks were mandated but anyone could come and go as they please and don’t need to wear gloves or wash their hands?  Why would anyone even consider performing such a ridiculous study and why would any NH resident agree?  Your whole argument is kind of absurd (no offense). 
 
Data on masks is difficult to come by because it is difficult to isolate that variable alone – that doesn’t mean it is “fake news”.   
 

 

 
 

[Unknown Member]

The razor edge wit stropped to its finest , cuts me , flaying my intellectual flesh and eviscerating my very reason. I shall nevermore protest thine superiority, nor advance my muttering senselessness.

Or as GGrandma used to say, go ahead, do it your own stupid way.

[kayla.meyer_144]

I’m sure this will prove to be a waste of time as the deniers will still deny regardless of any studies showing any positive efficacy and mitigation of COVID by wearing masks, hand washing & social distancing because any and all evidence does not verify the deniers’ belief system. This will always remain a nothing burger to the deniers who breezily dismiss 200,000+ US deaths and 1,000,000 global deaths due to COVID. 
 
Obviously made up numbers.
 
It was really not very difficult to Google the question. Makes you wonder why it seems so hard for the deniers.
 
[link=https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent]https://www.ucsf.edu/news…how-face-masks-prevent[/link]
 
[link=https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200926/Mask-wearing-handwashing-and-social-distancing-protect-against-COVID-19-confirms-study.aspx]https://www.news-medical….19-confirms-study.aspx[/link]
 
[link=https://bgr.com/2020/06/03/coronavirus-face-masks-reduce-risk-of-transmission-infection-study-says/]https://bgr.com/2020/06/0…-infection-study-says/[/link]
 
[link=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-12/masks-can-reduce-covid-spread-by-40-german-study-suggests]https://www.bloomberg.com…-german-study-suggests[/link]
 
[link=https://www.foxnews.com/health/wearing-face-mask-reduce-coronavirus-transmission-75-percent-study-shows]https://www.foxnews.com/h…75-percent-study-shows[/link]
 
Now I would like to see some studies posted by the deniers showing no mitigating effect at all of wearing masks spreading the virus. At work we can then just go to the OR or any patient with any highly infectious respiratory disease sans masks & say, “What, me worry?”
 
All this nonsense about wearing surgical and/or N95 masks having any sort of effect outside of a placebo effect is just hooey bologna I am sure.
 
Show us the studies showing masks are a waste of time, effort and money & are not needed.

[clickpenguin_460]

It’s because you always generalize everything we say.  I’ve always said that we should wear masks when we are indoors within 3 feet of people for more than 15 minutes.  I’m opposed to blanket mask mandates that don’t make sense.  Also those studies are fine but it’s just about impossible to conclusively prove masks do anything either way.
 
I mean honestly, do you think wearing a mask from the door to a table in a restaurant and then not wearing it again during the whole meal does anything at all?
 
It’s as posters said before, if you love masks and are so concerned then just wear one everyday in every situation for the rest of your life so you never catch anything.  No one will stop you.  

[nicolasvg.1003]

Atlas got on Foxnews and says “I’m not here to make friends” with regard to his position on the task force – what does that even mean?  Why not say “I am a physician and I care about the health and well being of the American people and am working tirelessly to help” or something like that.  He is clearly playing to Trump / the right with lines like that and pushing this nonsensical tough guy and belligerent attitude. 
 
it is shameful to speak about other physician colleagues in this manner, the majority of which are far more qualified in the fields of ID and public health than he is.   Something is wrong with this guy. 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

Figuring out the effects of difficult to isolate variables is why statisticians have jobs.

It is not impossible to study the effects of mitigation or infection control efforts for COVID.

To say that it is impossible and that we should make major interventions on society based upon the common sense of a select group of favored academics, and never study how those interventions succeeded, failed, or could be improved is the definition of an anti-scientific approach.

[nicolasvg.1003]

Quote from radgrinder

Figuring out the effects of difficult to isolate variables is why statisticians have jobs.

It is not impossible to study the effects of mitigation or infection control efforts for COVID.

To say that it is impossible and that we should make major interventions on society based upon the common sense of a select group of favored academics, and never study how those interventions succeeded, failed, or could be improved is the definition of an anti-scientific approach.

 
I believe this topic has likely run its course but there are many papers, including meta-analyses, which do attempt this and show positive effects of various mitigation measures, including masks.  However, none rise to the level of the gold standards of research due to the factors l outlined previously and much of the work centers on the Flu.  This of course, gives all the anti-maskers etc plenty of room to argue (wrongly) unfortunately. This does not mean the scientific and public health communities are relying only on “common sense”.   
 
 

[clickpenguin_460]

There are too many variables to prove conclusively either way.  
 
I think we all agree that if I have covid and you don’t and I’m wearing a mask while I sneeze/cough 2 feet in front of you, that is going to protect you.
 
I think we all agree that walking around outside with no one 10 feet or closer to you is safe without a mask.
 
Everything else in between is what people are arguing about.
 
There are papers that show the mask prevents air droplet particles from moving.  There are papers that are attempting to prove a correlation between mitigation.  The issue with that is that we don’t know if it’s masks, masks + distancing, distancing alone, or just a natural virus course.  They are confounders. 
 
For example, if it was 100% about masks being the be-all-end-all then you wouldn’t have real world situations where they don’t make a lick of difference.  I’ve said this before but the big city near me has 50% occupancy, mask mandates, and remote school while the 3 counties outside of it don’t have any of those things.  Infection rates/deaths/etc. are no different between the two.  One would imagine that if it was solely the mitigation factors at play, then the counties should have a ton more cases/deaths than the city.  And the counties have dense suburbs too so it’s not all about pop density.  Neither area has much of a public transit system.   Also, the counties businesses are booming and literally busloads of people from the city go out into the suburbs every weekend to pack the streets/restaurants/etc.  The city is a ghosttown.

[Unknown Member]

How did they study the flu? Did no one wash their hands or visit the elderly during flu season? You just defeated your own its too complex to study idea above.

Why not do studies on COVID? There have been months of data to work with and months to go, there are trillions of dollars of economic and societal harm that could be affected, and its a significant societal issue and debate.

But we cant study it because all of our scientists are too busy writing snippy letters to a neuroradiologist who advises the president?

Id like their snippy little letters a lot more if they attached some studies that they did supporting their points. Like a scientist would.

[nicolasvg.1003]

Quote from radgrinder

How did they study the flu? Did no one wash their hands or visit the elderly during flu season? You just defeated your own its too complex to study idea above.

 
Not sure if serious – they just investigate “mitigation techniques” as a whole, not mask only or handwashing only or hand sanitizer etc.  Anyway, I will just agree to disagree with the anti-maskers.  Since they don’t believe in masks I assume they never wear them and thus stand by their convictions and will deal with the consequences, right? 

[clickpenguin_460]

Quote from CoronaRad

Quote from radgrinder

How did they study the flu? Did no one wash their hands or visit the elderly during flu season? You just defeated your own its too complex to study idea above.

Not sure if serious – they just investigate “mitigation techniques” as a whole, not mask only or handwashing only or hand sanitizer etc.  Anyway, I will just agree to disagree with the anti-maskers.  Since they don’t believe in masks I assume they never wear them and thus stand by their convictions and will deal with the consequences, right? 

 
Are you saying it should be up to us/the person to wear them?  What a dream that would be.

[Unknown Member]

So far what Ive gotten from this thread is a lot of insults, sarcasm, penis jokes, the thought that society should be guided by common sense rather than scientific inquiry, and the idea that COVID and COVID-mitigation effort efficacy is too complex to ever be studied.

Nothing can change because nothing can be studied.

Listen to scientists who dont want to do science because its too complex, but please listen to their common sense.

Dont question any of this or else one is anti-science.

Dr Atlas is not the problem.

[kayla.meyer_144]

So then, weve conclusively established that wearing masks does effectively mitigate spreading COVID. All in agreement with the [b]SCIENCE[/b] of this, yes?

So the remaining question being posed is whether to mask outdoors within 3 ft of someone for 15 min? 
 
Myquestion is who is infected, you or that person 3 ft away who presumably is also wearing a mask? 

[nicolasvg.1003]

Atlas next stop will be special advisor to RadPartner. 

[Unknown Member]

May we see the scientific evidence of the efficacy of mask wearing in the mitigation of COVID?

[nicolasvg.1003]

May we see the scientific evidence of the lack of efficacy of mask wearing in the mitigation of COVID?

[Unknown Member]

This is a great thread btw. Excellent examples of cognitive dissonance, herd mentality.

[Unknown Member]

CoronaRad,

If masks are so effective, why are so many cases still occurring and rising in areas where masks are required?

[nicolasvg.1003]

Because it is very contagious.    That’s what is says in Atlas neurorad book in the virology section anyway. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

So once one tries an intervention, it is the scientific method to measure the impact. Prove the null hypothesis wrong.

How did wearing masks impact spread? Reduce it, negligible effect, increase spread for reasons mentioned earlier? In what settings are masks most effective, which ones are best, and so on?

Are all of these questions are impossible to answer?

[nicolasvg.1003]

Regrettably, because this is a public health issue, masks need to be universally worn to show effect.  Of course, we know, pseudo-intellectuals such as those who post here and Atlas preclude universal mask wearing.  In setting where there has been universal mask wearing there has been positive effects in terms of reducing the spread of the virus.
[link=https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533]https://jamanetwork.com/j…ma/fullarticle/2768533[/link]

[Unknown Member]

It doesnt have to be universal.

Great study you linked to! Exactly what I was talking about. Now do it for nursing homes, schools and so on. Why not?

[nicolasvg.1003]

LOL – because it is common sense that masks help reduce the spread of respiratory viruses.   Spend that research $ somewhere useful rather than waste it trying to convince anti-maskers. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

Why would it be a waste if youre trying to encourage universal usage? Terrible persuasion.

Telling people why and showing them the reasons is always more effective than because I said so. It also increases your credibility going forward as a person of science, and these days folks in public health need all the credibility they can get.

[nicolasvg.1003]

Meh… doubt people who believe the world is flat and that when you order pizza a trafficked child is dropped on your doorstep read JAMA articles.  You can’t reason with dumb.  I suppose you can help convince medical professionals, but they should know better already…. unless they are internet forum trolls of course…. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

That logic is why Trump is president. Get ready for more.

[dzerangel_635]

It blows my mind that Dr. Scott Atlas is willing to risk his professional integrity and credibility to defend this clown of a narcissistic president who will not hesitate to throw him under the bus.

[Unknown Member]

Why do you think that is? Atlas is a smart guy who knows the risks.

Most likely he thinks he can do some good for the country.

[Unknown Member]

Or maybe, for some people, they have become so partisan in this climate that everything they have said before about specialization and a lot of values they would normally have held dear fall to the wayside.  Being hyperpartisan is very destructive.

[Unknown Member]

Could be.

My personal rule of thumb is that when a very very smart person who has accomplished a tremendous amount during his professional career makes a choice or says something that is regarded as unusual, then I pay really close attention and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Its the unusual things that distinguish the really really successful people from the goobers on AM posting in between CXR reads and complaints that RP is eating their lunch.

So I prefer to listen to Atlas and figure out what hes up to, because that tells me something new and likely useful.

I already know what the AM goobers will say on pretty much any subject.

[dzerangel_635]

So you’re basically saying you value success even if it means selling your soul.

[Unknown Member]

Helping the president during a national healthcare emergency when you know it will almost certainly lead to being ostracized from a significant portion of ones social and professional circles because of political partisanship.

That is a positive moral act.

[22002469]

Is it still a positive moral act if by “helping” the President, he is simply spreading partisan pseudoscience nonsense?
 
And if the reason he is doing it isn’t actually to help at all, but rather feed his own narcissism? 
 
 

[jennycullmann]

Freedom and science are low on their list of value systems/beliefs.
 
Fauci is the king of pseudo science nonsense. He’s contradicted himself multiple times, made comments on sports events, tinder dates, etc
 
You’re a joke dude, you can’t even answer these points without distracting to ad hominem. Go ahead and try. You won’t.

[Unknown Member]

RSF,

Its best not to engage in mind reading.

Hes written major textbooks, studied public health policy extensively and advised presidents and multiple presidential candidates.

Youre an anonymous poster on Aunt Minnie who just learned what IFR was from Thread Enhancer four months ago and now fancies they can mind read the motivations of people youve never met.

[22002469]

Quote from Casino Royale

You’re a joke dude, you can’t even answer these points without distracting to ad hominem. Go ahead and try. You won’t.

 
From March 26th.   

[link=https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/26/widespread-isolation-and-stopping-all-human-intera/]https://amp.washingtontim…ping-all-human-intera/[/link]   

[b]There is massive uncertainty, but using Ioannidis mid-range fatality rate, this virus could cause about 10,000 deaths in the United States overall, overall, a number that would not be extraordinary news in the total of flu-like deaths every season.[/b]   
 
He is completely and totally in over his head, embarrassing himself at every turn. I’ll side with the entirety of the Stanford faculty rather than a partisan hack that gets off on telling the President what he wants to hear. 
 

[eyoab2011_711]

So the guy who believes that only neuroradiologists are competent to read neuroimaging studies also believes that he can practice epidemiology and public health of pandemics without formal training

[clickpenguin_460]

Quote from Radsoxfan

Quote from Casino Royale

You’re a joke dude, you can’t even answer these points without distracting to ad hominem. Go ahead and try. You won’t.

From March 26th.   

[link=https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/26/widespread-isolation-and-stopping-all-human-intera/]https://amp.washingtontim…ping-all-human-intera/[/link]   

[b]There is massive uncertainty, but using Ioannidis mid-range fatality rate, this virus could cause about 10,000 deaths in the United States overall, overall, a number that would not be extraordinary news in the total of flu-like deaths every season.[/b]   

He is completely and totally in over his head, embarrassing himself at every turn. I’ll side with the entirety of the Stanford faculty rather than a partisan hack that gets off on telling the President what he wants to hear. 

 
That statement is clearly false in hindsight but you had people on the “other side” predicting millions of deaths that are actual epidemiologist/policy makers/etc.  So, you must think they are all embarrassing themselves at every turn too.

[Unknown Member]

Hes advised on public health and healthcare policy for decades…has studied and is a fellow at the Hoover Institute, part of their working group on public health.

[22002469]

Quote from Cubsfan10

That statement is clearly false in hindsight but you had people on the “other side” predicting millions of deaths that are actual epidemiologist/policy makers/etc.  So, you must think they are all embarrassing themselves at every turn too.

 
I strongly disagree. Predictions can certainly be right or wrong, but should be primarily judged based on the thought process, not the results (especially early on with limited data).
 
At the time, it was entirely reasonable to be concerned about the possibility of a disease with an IFR of 1% infecting 60% of the US and resulting in 2 million deaths. This likely won’t happen fortunately, but it was entirely reasonable as one of the “bad but possible outcomes”.
 
Atlas had a reasonable discussion about IFR in his article, and says based on midpoint estimates in his article (roughly 0.5% IFR, actually a very good guess!), the most likely scenario is that there would be 10,000 deaths. [b]This means he expected there to be 2 million infections and overall 0.6% of the population in the US to get infected[/b]. How does this make any sense??
 
His bizarre press conference talking down to the press about T cell immunity and the “facts” was another illustrative moment. Someone who does not understand the science, but talks with certainty about benefits of T cell immunity, in direct opposition to the experts in immunology and virology.
 
He is not the person for this job. It’s quite clear. 
 

[satyanar]

Quote from Radsoxfan

At the time, it was entirely reasonable to be concerned about the possibility of a disease with an IFR of 1% infecting 60% of the US and resulting in 2 million deaths. This likely won’t happen fortunately, but it was entirely reasonable as one of the “bad but possible outcomes”.

 
There were signs at the time that those numbers were way off but it is fair to say this was a potential outcome based on the limited data available. What is sad is how long the scientific community took see the truth and to own this error. Actually I don’t think many have yet. There is just too much political pressure to keep up the current mantra.
 
In the end with the “gross mismanagement” across the board from government, especially early on in NY and NJ, we are awfully lucky COVID turned out the way it did with a much lower IFR, especially in younger patients. There clearly would have been millions of deaths otherwise.

[Unknown Member]

An amusing scenario to think on is if Biden won and then decided to keep Atlas around.

Without doing anything different aside from the change in the party affiliation of his boss, Atlas would go from despised and insulted to the Greatest Radiologist Who Ever Lived who is bringing honor to our profession, and folks would be tossing roses at his feet rather than spitting in his face.

Probably wont happen.

[Unknown Member]

Biden wouldnt keep him around

Biden will put experts in place

Atlas is not an expert. He is a political hack with no epidemiology or public health credentials

Only a science hating moron like trump would do something so stupid as putting Atlas on the task force let alone having the leading medical voice

[22002469]

There will be a LONG list of people shown the door when/if Biden wins.
 
Atlas will be near the very top. 

[Unknown Member]

To OP:

Don’t worry. Our profession is low on the totem pole of respect already. Most patients see doctors as bunch of greedy rich bastards who don’t care about anybody but themselves.

No respect and digignity is left to be damaged.

[Unknown Member]

I didnt think many folks could grok the idea of what it would mean about their perception of reality if Biden were to keep Atlas.

Easier to say that it could never happen and not think about it.

Our ability to advance and consider new ideas is constrained by our social group and by our personal capacity to withstand embarrassment.

[kayla.meyer_144]

You people are very defensive if you believe “most people see doctors as (nothing more than a) bunch of greedy rich bastards who don’t care about anybody but themselves.”
 
Most people I know or have met think pretty highly of most doctors. Yes, there are reports of physicians abusing & milking the system but in my experience these are the exception not the rule.
 
Even people who work in healthcare who actually know physicians they would not send their worst enemy to do not consider them the norm but the exception.
 
Yeah, my wife (an RN) & I have worked with some beauts but the majority of physicians earned our respect.
 
Who do you all know that you think most people think so poorly of you?
 
Walking through life wearing a chip is not healthy. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

“Most people I know or have met think pretty highly of most doctors. Yes, there are reports of physicians abusing & milking the system but in my experience these are the exception not the rule.”
 
This is very true in my community. 

[Unknown Member]

I think most people think their doctor is great

But all other doctors are greedy and in it for the money

Atlas is not helping us

He looks like a stupid stooges practicing outside his expertise

Thats what educated people think

Non educated people dont care

[dzerangel_635]

POTUS must have forgotten to take his hydroxychloroquine dose.

[ruszja]

Quote from CoronaRad

it is shameful to speak about other physician colleagues in this manner, the majority of which are far more qualified in the fields of ID and public health than he is.   Something is wrong with this guy. 

 
Too much time spent at Stanford, Hopkins or Harvard will do that to you.

[jennycullmann]

Quote from uncleduke

The fact of asking if masks help in an epidemic of airborne Infectious disease in the 21st century is all you really need to know. Akin to asking if wiping after defecating helps prevent swampa$$.

 
Again, by this logic you should never stop wearing a mask forevermore, since there is always a “risk” with flu, now covid, heck, any other claimed disease that is invisible that someone claims is out there. This simpleton approach of not valuing other things and considering life, humanity, and people’s livelihoods (jobs), interactions etc is precisely why there are so many problems socially and mentally.
 
There is always a point, or will be, at which one says, “Enough is enough, I don’t care” because the risk is negligible. I’ve got news for you, it already was, we just came to the conclusion because we actually [i][b]think[/b][/i]. Meawhile, you live in fear and politics to do the bidding of others and/or virtue signal. Again, if you are so worried about the 90 year olds and fatasses out there, stop driving too, it is way too dangerous. Especially with booze and cell phones commonly used these days.
 
Simpleton approaches are really horrible and what’s worse is that the people who are thinking they are “good” because they are so low brow in their thinking can’t even evaluate how bad they are making it for others socially and economically. Or answer a question about when enough is enough. When is it, when some politician not trained in anything scientific or with critical thinking, when he tells you? The argument has never been in good faith because you guys value freedom and other things taken away by your draconian measures as absolutely of no value. It’s absurd.

[nicolasvg.1003]

In many Asian countries, where the population is educated and actually care about others in society, they wear masks in public every flu season or anytime they have URI symptoms.  The horror!!  
 
It is funny how those making the most outlandish claims which go against common sense are always asking for the other side to produce proof – the burden of proof is actually on those who are arguing against common sense and accepted principles.  I don’t think many posters on AM.com were ever on a debate team. 
 
 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

Thats a tautology, CoronaRad. Actually did quite well in debate.

Here though, we were talking about scientific evidence, not rhetorical devices or where a burden of proof may lie or the amorphous blob known as common sense.

If you want to argue for wearing a mask based on those arguments, then those are your basis. Dont try to say that youre following the science when its really some abstract notion of your personal common sense.

[Unknown Member]

There is no trump vaccines

Moderna Pfizer and AstraZeneca were working on these when trump was calling Covid a democratic hoax

[satyanar]

I thought you wanted to bookmark it because Frumi is doing basic maths again.

[Unknown Member]

There were a lot of question marks on one side of Frumis equation and nothing on the other side. It doesnt qualify as math.

[satyanar]

Darn. If we could only multiply one thing by another I’m sure we could figure this all out and know what to do next.
 
 
 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

Well thats how you know when someone is a disgrace.

When you have all the answers then you know who is right and wrong, and can arbitrate who is a shining knight and who is an incompetent villain.

[Unknown Member]

Speaking of math and disgrace…hows the IMHE doing…Still forecasting 15 billion dead by fall?

[clickpenguin_460]

Ha…410,000 by new years!
 
The “mandates easing” line is the best.  It’s basically going to kill more Americans than exist with no end in sight!  Apparently IMHE thinks covid is so deadly it’s going to reach into our sister worlds in the multiverse to add to the death toll.
 
[link=https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america?view=total-deaths&tab=trend]https://covid19.healthdat…l-deaths&tab=trend[/link]

[satyanar]

Their modeling is so absurd it almost feels like the Onion piece dergon posted over in OT politics. Adding in the mandates easing line is comical  Its as if there isnt enough bad news anymore to drive the agenda so they make something up and point it out to the wires that are happy to gobble it up. The 440,000 number is all over the place right now. Better yet they can say its Trumps favored source since he pointed to it months ago. 

[satyanar]

Just so I am not called a bunch of names, there is nothing sinister about the agenda. Universal mask wearing wouldn’t hurt anyone and would probably help keep mortality and morbidity down. I find it sad that scientists believe they have to make something horrible up to change behavior. I believe honesty will win in the end. The “white lies” that continue to be told are making things worse.

[Unknown Member]

Quote from Thread Enhancer

Just so I am not called a bunch of names, there is nothing sinister about the agenda. Universal mask wearing wouldn’t hurt anyone and would probably help keep mortality and morbidity down. I find it sad that scientists believe they have to make something horrible up to change behavior. I believe honesty will win in the end. The “white lies” that continue to be told are making things worse.

 
Agreed.  I think that all the lies and prevarications done “for your own good” are some of the worst aspects of this.
 
As a further demonstration of the consequences, look at the current coin shortage.
 
America is literally running out of common cents.

[Unknown Member]

America is literally running out of common cents

Well, I guess we are supposedly running out of cents but I am not sure thats what you meant.

[Unknown Member]

Ha! Yes…that was the pun/joke :).

[leann2001nl]

Quote from Cubsfan10

Ha…410,000 by new years!

The “mandates easing” line is the best.  It’s basically going to kill more Americans than exist with no end in sight!  Apparently IMHE thinks covid is so deadly it’s going to reach into our sister worlds in the multiverse to add to the death toll.

[link=https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america?view=total-deaths&tab=trend]https://covid19.healthdat…l-deaths&tab=trend[/link]

How exactly are they predicting daily deaths in december to be higher than ever before, for example in april or may? This was also the model that predict like 80k total deaths so they’ve probably just swung the other direction to avoid consistently being low. I also don’t understand how the ” current prediction” and ” universal masks” curves trend towards intersecting around new years when there is such a big spread in december projected. Why would that happen? 

[dzerangel_635]

Even the head of the CDC is saying Atlas is a clown.

[link=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/redfield-voices-alarm-over-influence-trump-s-new-coronavirus-task-n1241221?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_nn&fbclid=IwAR11SvCUVElZBVUwGKc_HZfjYxy9bf0FJN7Q3GqomYNC8VBhMVswmFkmPMY&fbclid=IwAR3hqVSho62wNJweCDWEtNqMES2RLTGKeOFuHBGBbK9uCQBBOQVyQXTayl0]https://www.nbcnews.com/p…BGBbK9uCQBBOQVyQXTayl0[/link]

[clickpenguin_460]

They’re just jelly

[satyanar]

Quote from rads4meplease

Even the head of the CDC is saying Atlas is a clown.

[link=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/redfield-voices-alarm-over-influence-trump-s-new-coronavirus-task-n1241221?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_nn&fbclid=IwAR11SvCUVElZBVUwGKc_HZfjYxy9bf0FJN7Q3GqomYNC8VBhMVswmFkmPMY&fbclid=IwAR3hqVSho62wNJweCDWEtNqMES2RLTGKeOFuHBGBbK9uCQBBOQVyQXTayl0]https://www.nbcnews.com/p…BGBbK9uCQBBOQVyQXTayl0[/link]

 
If one takes the time to read that article everyone sounds like a clown including Redfield. Its just another political piece.
 
As I said yesterday, this is so layered and complex nobody knows what to say anymore to support their political stance. The only thing to do is call people that advise DJT stupid. The problem is they end up up having to mock and ridicule all of the scientists because they are now providing data that now supports the optimists. It would have been better to keep the politics out of it and find the truth from the beginning. 

[afazio.uk_887]

Atlas is there because he is a Trump sycophant. His opinion is no more valuable than any of the Radiologists on this forum. His opinion carries weight with Trump because he says what Trump wants to hear. Pathetic!

[dzerangel_635]

Quote from Waduh Dong

Atlas is there because he is a Trump sycophant. His opinion is no more valuable than any of the Radiologists on this forum. His opinion carries weight with Trump because he says what Trump wants to hear. Pathetic!

 
Seriously pathetic.  This should be testament to how damaging political divisions can be.  Rather than following the science, the country has been divided based on political beliefs.  Meanwhile, Italy did the right thing and went from 1000 deaths per day to less than 10 within a few months.  We still have 1000 deaths per day!

[Unknown Member]

4 more years for you guys to cry!

[afazio.uk_887]

Yeah, brilliant, Liberal tears are much important than having a respectable and non-criminal President.  

[Unknown Member]

Criminal? Man, will you guys ever give that up. I guess you are probably not thrilled about a conservative Supreme Court for years either.

[kayla.meyer_144]

It’s always been about Liberal tears over lives saved.

[vhudson_121]

Wow, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised politics is spilling over into this forum.  This is the first pandemic the world has seen in quite a while.
 
It will be interesting in 5-10 years to see who was really right.  I think recency bias is blinding a lot of people.

[Unknown Member]

Funny thing is

Everyone cries on this site when a nurse practitioner says something

Or an Er doc wants to read an X-ray

But when a neuro rad gets politically appointed to an epidemiologist post then somehow thats ok

[Unknown Member]

Or a neurosurgeon is appointed to oversee the Dept of Housing and Urban Development.

[kayla.meyer_144]

Yes, all of his skills and training were what led up to that appointment to run the Dept of Housing & Urban Development.

[Unknown Member]

Exactly. I remember the HUD training semester in medical school. Do you think Carson should be removed?

[suman]

Excess mortality rate in Europe higher than in the US, despite Americans being fatter:

[link=https://reason.com/2020/09/09/is-the-u-s-handling-the-covid-19-pandemic-better-than-europe/]https://reason.com/2020/0…ic-better-than-europe/[/link]

Economic contraction is less severe in the US too.

[clickpenguin_460]

I’m not sure why you linked my post since I wasn’t talking about Atlas or defending him…
 
But,
 
– Ethical debates in medicine are commonplace and covid is another one.  It’s not as straightforward as lockdowns = save lives = doctors should believe in that.  As we have said on here several times, many of us believe more lives are harmed because of what we have done to “stop” covid vs letting covid do its thing. 
– He’s not qualified to tell anyone that they are wrong, but the experts have been wrong a bunch of times regarding covid so far – many of them “lying” as much as you claim Atlas to be; my opinion is they both/all have been wrong
– Children do have a “virtually zero” chance of dying of covid.  They die at a lower rate than influenza and RSV.  There have been 101 children who have died of covid in the US so far and 19 states have recorded 0 deaths. Not to mention that the data shows almost all of those kids were already sick with a co-morbidity.  ([link=https://downloads.aap.org/AAP/PDF/AAP%20and%20CHA%20-%20Children%20and%20COVID-19%20State%20Data%20Report%208.27.20%20FINAL.pdf). ]https://downloads.aap.org…20%20FINAL.pdf). [/link]
– As far as spreading the disease…there’s conflicting data all over the place so I don’t have an answer for you on that one.

[Unknown Member]

My point exactly

[Unknown Member]

BASICALLY

This quack is just a radiologist

Are they even doctors?