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They died needlessly…
The fall of Ramadi to ISIS makes my blood boil.
The reason my blood actually boils is because in 2006, 80 Americans died fighting in Ramadi so that the place would be under Iraqi government control and free of insurgents.
All were heroes – people like Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor – who at 25 threw himself on a grenade to protect his fellow soldiers even though he knew his act would kill him.
A decade later, we have a bunch of demented terrorists who have taken over Ramadi.
So what did those 80 Americans – and dozens of Iraqis who fought with the Americans – die for? -
75 Replies
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They signed up to follow the commander in chief who was elected by their countrymen. What can u do if the people of the country are so dumb as to elect a moron like GWB and invade Iraq unnecessarily. Sad cycle of failure of US foreign policy. Elections have consequences.
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and people say it’s been eight years and we can’t blame bush for Iraq anymore. What a load of crap. Look at Japan, the Phillipines, and South Korea. WE WERE AWESOME AT NATION BUILDING. But instead of focusing on Afghanistan, we paid lip service to our promise and decided to take over another country we had no reason to. Then, when there were citizens begging for the US to depose a despot (Syria), we were too sick with Iraq fatigue to help them and ISIS was more than willing to pick up the slack. WARS HAVE CONSEQUENCES THAT LAST DECADES.
Next time someone says that Bush and neocons are now absolved of their sins simply because it has been eight years, ask them, “How different would the world be if we had focused on building a strong democracy in Afghanistan, let Saddam contain Iran, and did shock and awe in 2013 Damascus instead of 2003 Baghdad?” This isn’t some 20/20 hindsight jumbo, there were a lot of protests before the start of the Iraq war, a lot of people saw this coming.
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I’ve got a buddy that spent time there training some of their security forces. He was saying the same people you train during the day are the ones that go out with the militias committing the violence at night.
To build a country you need everyone to buy into building a country. It doesn’t seem like that will ever happen there as long as it’s Sunni vs Shia vs Isis vs Kurds. -
Quote from Adeelmd
This isn’t some 20/20 hindsight jumbo, there were a lot of protests before the start of the Iraq war, a lot of people saw this coming.
Yes there were Adeel. There were LOTS of protests.
There were unforgiveable accusations against those of us who actually took a stance at the time.
The tough talking rhetoric from armchair “chicken hawks” with no skin in the game. Where is RVU and other right wing trolls – whose children are safely tucked up in the dorms of their private schools – whilst the children of the poor are sent off to fight?
For what?-
Spare us the US vs. them, canuck, this stuff has been going on for years and it’s hardly Republican centered
In fact, the only guy that didn’t needlessly attack anyone was Reagan … in like the last 50 years.-
Quote from Cigar
Spare us the US vs. them, canuck, this stuff has been going on for years and it’s hardly Republican centered
In fact, the only guy that didn’t needlessly attack anyone was Reagan … in like the last 50 years.
Fast & loose with facts, as usual.
What is your definition of “needlessly?” There is Lebanon. There is Granada under Reagan, the self-congratulatory recovery post-Vietnam invasion. There is supporting the Contras, not exactly a peaceful thing using proxy forces. The Nicaraguan Contras alone shows you are sadly uninformed or trying to misinform us.
Who did Carter “needlessly” attack? The reaction to the Soviet’s invasion of Afghanistan? You don’t support Bush I’s Iraq War? Who did Clinton “needlessly” attack? You don’t support the Bosnian intervention?-
As an American Citizen resident on the West Coast who vigorously opposed the Iraq war prior to the opening salvo of “shock and awe” – I never cease to be amused at the revisionist history from right wing jerks who acted like histrionic cheerleaders at the time.
Any word of doubt about the mission’s validity prior to invasion was met with ridicule and derision from the armchair warriors.-
Quote from adopted canuck
As an American Citizen resident on the West Coast who vigorously opposed the Iraq war prior to the opening salvo of “shock and awe” – I never cease to be amused at the revisionist history from right wing jerks who acted like histrionic cheerleaders at the time.
Any word of doubt about the mission’s validity prior to invasion was met with ridicule and derision from the armchair warriors.
And now the gymnastics of the said jerks about, “If you know then what we know now…” as if we did not know it then. The only thing really not known then was how supremely stupid an idea it was all based on lies & fantasy.
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The problem is that the US must hold back in war. We have not really won a war since WWII and that’s cause we unleashed our full arsenal.
Why bother even going in there imo. You are basically going in half assed.
Obama then pulled out and left power vacuum etc. ISIS is here to stay now and probably will have its own currency and stuff soon. They have many sympathizers all over the world.-
So in Korea we held back instead of invading China & possibly a war with the Soviet Union in addition to North Korea & China.
In Vietnam we didn’t do what, invade North Vietnam?
Afghanistan we had proxies & couldn’t be bothered to get bin Laden in the mountains. And Pakistan would have applauded if we sent in proxies or troops into Pakistan?
Iraq. We didn’t try enough? We could have started up the Draft again & raised taxes but that would have spoiled the Administration’s narrative. “Mission Accomplished” was announced not long after the invasion. As for “leaving early,” those terms were started by the Bush Administration. There was never a discussion about treating Iraq like Japan or Germany with full decades-long occupation. Would that have been supported by the American people? If the American people “had known then what we know now,” would we have been able to invade in the 1st place?
I doubt that.
Recall that Saddam was equated even more than bin Laden as behind 9-11. The whole reason for invading in the 1st place was built on a mountain of lies and excuses. Recall also that an explanation for invading Iraq instead of completing the job in Afghanistan was because, Iraq had better targets,” as I recall Rumsfeld stating.
The whole war was a lie and remains a lie. We made things worse. You seriously think that Obama should have told el Maliki to “Shut the frick up, we’re in charge here you little puppet!” and things would have been better than they are?
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Agree. They haven’t seen the full force of the US. One of the things you hear on Fox a lot is how Obama called ISIS the JV team. Well they’re basically running a muck over people who won’t fight, can’t fight, etc… Plugin the fully mechanized US military, with air support, the Navy, and give them rules of engagement to kill everything. See how that goes for ISIS.
However, even if they eradicated ISIS with extreme prejudice, I don’t see the Iraqis sticking together in any meaningful way to build a republic.-
Yes the US could get rid of ISIS but it would be a massive undertaking and not worth it at this point. They are here to stay. I find it amusing that cowboy redneck GWB ultimately facilitated the creation of an Islamic caliphate.
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If ISIS was destroyed today some other group of extremists with some other 4 letter acronym would pop up to replace it.
There’s a power vacuum. The [i]best[/i] we can hope for at this point is that brutal autocrats are able to get back in power and can stomp down those elements in their own locales. Sad to have to say that, but it’s true.
I suppose an alternative would be hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground for a multi-year period and another trillion dollars to try to build democracy but that wouldn’t even have a guarantee. Odds are just as good that we’d leave it broken again the next time.
Our efforts should concentrate on preventing those extremists elements from successfully attacking Western people and western-friendly governments. Lots of intel, special ops and drone strikes as needed, diplomacy to support and pressure regional and global players to work in the same direction.
But I don’t think any of us are going to retire from radiology [i]after[/i] the end of Middle East Islamic extremism. -
Many Muslims support the formation of an Islamic caliphate. It’s part of the religion.
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Part of the religion I don’t know but I t’s part of the mythology. What’s stopping any state from establishing a “mini-“caliphate now besides nothing. & which flavor of caliphate, Sunni or Shia?
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IMHO, this “full force” is not reality, just Hollywood Rambo fantasy & arm chair warrior fantasy. Who wants WWIII? Because that is what it would take & no guarantee of us winning any such fantasy football war.
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macro knows what he is talking about
islam has been extreme for its entire history, the only thing that has ever changed is its ability, not its will -
Onward Christian Soldiers!
Christians have persecuted & enslaved nonbelievers & other Christian flavors since they became the Roman religion. See missionaries in the New World.
Prosecuting others who believe differently has always been a religious pastime. History is full of people including Christians “killing for God,” it’s part of “their” religion. It’s part of religion.
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I’m not Christian but that argument is pretty absurd. ISIS is 8th century stuff and is based firmly in Islamic theology. This is why there is not a whole lot of outrage from more “normal” Muslims, because everything they stand for can be directly supported in Islamic theology and teachings. It might be nice to think of them as a “fringe” group or some crazies but they are not. Everything they do can be justified in Islamic theology.
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The Holocaust was not muslim in origin & I’ve met many people with tattoos on their arms, it’s not ancient history. I’ve heard people say that the best thing Hitler did was dealing with the Jews or other euphemisms. Pope John II only in the 1960’s stated that Jews were not responsible for killing Jesus although the New Testament does explicitly blame Jews (Matthew 27:24-25). And then there is the Old Testament. Meaning, if Islam is a violent religion because of cherry-picked verses then Judiasm is guilty also and the history of Christianity is very bloody.
As Jesus says in the New Testament states, “Who is without sin can throw the 1st stone.”
A lot of lonely rocks waiting to be picked up.
That’s why I like not having a religion, God is no excuse for murder whether God is Jewish, Christian or Muslim or any other God. Gods don’t kill people, people kill people. God is just an old excuse for hatred.
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Quote from macrophallus
I’m not Christian but that argument is pretty absurd. ISIS is 8th century stuff and is [b]based firmly in Islamic theology[/b]. This is why there is not a whole lot of outrage from more “normal” Muslims, because everything they stand for can be directly supported in Islamic theology and teachings. It might be nice to think of them as a “fringe” group or some crazies but they are not. [b]Everything they do can be justified in Islamic theology. [/b]
that is simply laughable and as far from the truth as it gets -
I have read the Koran. It’s all in there or can easily be interpreted that way.
I’m no fan of religion in general. More people have suffered and died on this planet in the name of organized religion than any other fair tales. -
So you are saying Islam is an evil religion that has murder and violence in its religious book? More evil than Judiasm or Christianity?
So is there a solution you are proposing about what to do about the Muslim problem?
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god bless macro, finally another person doing the diligence of historical and current study, as well as clearly reading that Atlantic article which spells it all out
macro, the other guys on this board don’t get it because they don’t want to, they are ignorant of history, and think all cultures and religions are co-equal
I can’t help that, nor can you, sadly. I’ve tried -
Quote from macrophallus
I have read the Koran. It’s all in there or can easily be interpreted that way.
I’m no fan of religion in general. [b]More people have suffered and died on this planet in the name of organized religion than any other fair tales. [/b]
Ain’t that the truth. Whether it was the christians “saving” muslims back in the crusades, or whether it is modern day men and women who vow jihad, every single one of them is convinced they are right. And there is no reasoning with peoples “beliefs” whether they believe in the boogey man, santa, God, Thetans , Leprechauns, or hobgoblins.
Ever try talking to a religious fanatic, heck even a devoutly religious person? I’ve had more enlightening conversations with walls. No seriously. Walls were more interesting.
In my ideal world of the future, all religion would be looked upon as something quaint, and naive, and elementary,something which existed and was pervasive before the great age of reason and scientific inquiry and fact came into being and humans prospered as never before. Or you know we could just keep on invading countries based on lies, in Gods name, oh and for freedom,(Hey look kids – now countries hate us even less cuz we done gone liberated them from the evildoers) all the while back home trying to remove references to evolution from text books while promoting intelligent design. Any luck on shaming women considering abortions into getting mandatory prenatal ultrasounds yet? (Its what Gawd would want)
Its working out oh so well wouldn’t you agree?
Two books to read if you still sleep with the lights on and believe in fairy tale…..errr..religion:
Infidel: Ayaan Ali Hirsi
The End of Faith: Sam Harris
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AMEN TO THAT! LOL
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[url=http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article4462278.ece]
Bush was wrong on Iraq, says Rumsfeld[/url][/h1]
The idea that we could fashion a democracy in Iraq seemed to me unrealistic. I was concerned about it when I first heard those words”[/h1]
Are you f*cking kidding me?!
It’s too late for any of that deflecting, Rummy. You break it, you bought it.
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it’s not religion itself that goes awry, its when religious thought gets overwhelmed by particularly conservative or liberal ideology that leads to violence and hatred. Christianity has been in a liberal renaissance for many years and continues to do so, while the term “liberal muslim” has almost become an oxymoron. Imho, liberal schools of thought in Islam have been systematically destroyed for the past 30-40 years. This “new” Islam is not the environment that my parents were raised in, or even one that I was brought up in.
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“New” Islam is really just “old” Islam, as in 7th – 8th century
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not really. they believed in science and math back then. they also didnt eat each other. this “new” islam is more a vehicle of hating those that are different than a religion.
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Eat each other meaning Sunni vs. Shia? That occurred 7th century. Prior to that no such a division existed to allow for in-fighting.
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Like Irish Catholics & Protestants, ancient history, not quite 9th Century, more like less than 20 years ago.
Before Protestants split there was no division. No wait, there were “heretics.”
Muslims are no more evil than Christians.
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Christianity has gone through dark times but it’s not like we’re going around beheading people in 2015, killing girls for going to school and all the other things that are morally repugnant. Unfortunately I think people like Saddam etc… Might have been the thing holding that region together.
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Not according to genius foreign policy expert GWB. Let’s get rid of him and they will love us and welcome us with open arms! There is a reason democracy doesn’t exist in the Muslim world (and no I don’t consider India as part of the true Muslim world) and tyrants are plentiful.
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Quote from Frumious
Like Irish Catholics & Protestants, ancient history, not quite 9th Century, more like less than 20 years ago.
Before Protestants split there was no division. No wait, there were “heretics.”
Muslims are no more evil than Christians.
so you are saying Muslims and Christians are presently EXACTLY the same in this regard. [b]Using what metric? [/b] If one group was more ‘evil’ now what would you expect to see? In other words what would have to happen to change your mind ie to determine that one group was more evil than the other?
This ‘they are exactly equal’ is incorrect and is the default for a lot of people ie is in fashion now. Ironically, unless you are a Salfafist they wouldn’t be so charitable with you and if you have a daughter god help her- figuratively of course. -
I don’t think its fair to compare Christian crusades to current Islam, it was a different time and is a great disservice to the multitude of Christian sects that live in peace.
IMHO, the main issue is that if any group of people or system start on a “quest for purity”, start repressing voices of dissent, and accept unproven theories as dogma; what is left is the very evil that was trying to be expelled. This “purity” oxymoron is one that can be seen throughout human history regardless of the people or religions involved.
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Quote from illinois
Quote from Frumious
Like Irish Catholics & Protestants, ancient history, not quite 9th Century, more like less than 20 years ago.
Before Protestants split there was no division. No wait, there were “heretics.”
Muslims are no more evil than Christians.
so you are saying Muslims and Christians are presently EXACTLY the same in this regard. [b]Using what metric? [/b]A history of violence & murder in their religion’s name.
Are you saying you could never work with a Muslim because of the fear they might behead you at any time? Or Muslims living in your neighborhood? Their religion is too dangerous to allow?
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Do you think that something that happened 100 years ago, for instance is just as relevant for now as what happened yesterday and what we expect to happen tomorrow? [b]Which religion had more violence committed in its name in the past 2 years? [/b]I bet the next two years will have a similar proportion. Perhaps you think next year more atrocities will be committed in the name of Christianity than Islam. I think this is ridiculous, but doubt that I can change your mind.
No, I am not saying that I could never work with a Muslim; in fact I do and the atmosphere is congenial. There are a lot of Muslims; many of them are a lot better people than I am, but there are large enough numbers that view the Quran literally, to be a menace. Also the concept of martyrdom seems to be very well developed in Islam which poses problems with deterrence. As an aside you must be aware of the atrocities against women ISIS is committing; it sure puts the supposed Republican ‘war on women’ in perspective. -
Who in the government or otherwise though ahead of time that removing Saddam would lead to sectarian violence. I’m not sure that crossed my mind when they soldiers were finding him in a fox hole. It’s like they’ve never heard the sage wisdom of Yoda.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” – Yoda -
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Who in the government or otherwise though ahead of time that removing Saddam would lead to sectarian violence. I’m not sure that crossed my mind when they soldiers were finding him in a fox hole. It’s like they’ve never heard the sage wisdom of Yoda.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” – Yoda
Who thought it wouldn’t? Everyone knew Saddam kept the warring parties under control. It was no different than Yugoslavia under Tito, when Tito died ethnic tensions began to rise culminating in the Yugoslav Wars.
[link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia[/link]
Anyone who didn’t know was not paying attention & believed in fairy tales of a Jeffersonian Democracy in Iraq, who never had any idea of democracy much less Jeffersonian. Read the opinions and analysis of those opposed to the Iraq War II & you will see that as at least one of the arguments.
From 2002:
[link=http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/30324/factions-could-battle-if-saddam-out]http://www.islamweb.net/e…d-battle-if-saddam-out[/link] -
The issue seems to go back to the original formation of the country -Sykes-Picot ; the borders aren’t/weren’t natural in terms of ethnic group, creed or geographic border.
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The Serbians were settling a religious grudge of several hundreds of years ago when the Ottoman Turks invaded Serbia in the 14th Century.
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I was talking about Iraq; your post came in while I was writing mine.
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also, I will take your word for the motive for the Serbs’ aggression. Revenge is a universal human motive ie not particular to any religion OR religion for that matter. The imperative to subjugate another religion, and non believers more generally, is particular to Islam.
ISIS seems to take that imperative very seriously. I understand the deal ISIS would like to strike with all ‘kuffars’ is convert, pay jizya or die. Maybe you would be surprised by how many people in the US sympathize with this line of thinking.
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Maybe, but to condemn Islam as an evil religion is opening a bigger Pandora’s Box than Iraq ever did not to mention that most Muslims don’t deserve the outright condemnation of their religion as evil.
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Quote from illinois
Do you think that something that happened 100 years ago, for instance is just as relevant for now as what happened yesterday and what we expect to happen tomorrow? [b]Which religion had more violence committed in its name in the past 2 years? [/b]I bet the next two years will have a similar proportion. Perhaps you think next year more atrocities will be committed in the name of Christianity than Islam. I think this is ridiculous, but doubt that I can change your mind.
No, I am not saying that I could never work with a Muslim; in fact I do and the atmosphere is congenial. There are a lot of Muslims; many of them are a lot better people than I am, but there are large enough numbers that view the Quran literally, to be a menace. Also the concept of martyrdom seems to be very well developed in Islam which poses problems with deterrence. As an aside you must be aware of the atrocities against women ISIS is committing; it sure puts the supposed Republican ‘war on women’ in perspective.
You can filter out a lot of things by taking slices of time & deliberately filtering data out of the query. Using the Serbian War as an example, what do you think of Christianity not being violent?
It’s still my opinion that Christianity and Islam have blood on their hands. Today Islam’s is fresher until another Serbia or such comes along.
You also have to consider politics. Today Christianity has political power while Islam is dreaming of the fantasy of what “used to be,” the recreation of the Ottoman Empire which declined at the end of the 18th Century while the West began to flourish. Oh, for the good ol glory days of empire. And Europeans had empires not long ago & European empires were destroyed only since WWII.
[link=http://europe.newsweek.com/growing-nostalgia-turkey-glory-days-ottoman-empire-328458]http://europe.newsweek.co…-ottoman-empire-328458[/link]
Gods and politics can be deadly.
See Bosnian Genocide:
[link=http://www.history.com/topics/bosnian-genocide]http://www.history.com/topics/bosnian-genocide[/link]
[link=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bosnia-war-crimes-the-rapes-went-on-day-and-night-robert-fisk-in-mostar-gathers-detailed-evidence-of-the-systematic-sexual-assaults-on-muslim-women-by-serbian-white-eagle-gunmen-1471656.html]http://www.independent.co…le-gunmen-1471656.html[/link]
[link=http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/04/20-years-since-the-bosnian-war/100278/]http://www.theatlantic.co…he-bosnian-war/100278/[/link]
Remember the Siege of Sarajevo? The Winter Olympics were played there only in 1984. 10 years later it was the scene of religious and ethnic genocide.
[link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo[/link]
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shia sunni is just an excuse. They would find some other division to fight about if that divide doesn’t exist, and they do. Pakistanis and Bengalis, Iran and Iraq, Arabs and everyone else…. Before the Taliban, you had Pashtun tribes killing each other over feudal issues very similar to game of thrones. It’s cliché, but once hate enters the mind, finding an enemy to pin your problems on is very easy.
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Quote from mgoblue
Quote from macrophallus
I’m not Christian but that argument is pretty absurd. ISIS is 8th century stuff and is [b]based firmly in Islamic theology[/b]. This is why there is not a whole lot of outrage from more “normal” Muslims, because everything they stand for can be directly supported in Islamic theology and teachings. It might be nice to think of them as a “fringe” group or some crazies but they are not. [b]Everything they do can be justified in Islamic theology. [/b]
that is simply laughable and as far from the truth as it gets
so let’s take a for instance- do you think justification for beheadings can be found in the Quran?
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Quote from illinois
Quote from mgoblue
Quote from macrophallus
I’m not Christian but that argument is pretty absurd. ISIS is 8th century stuff and is [b]based firmly in Islamic theology[/b]. This is why there is not a whole lot of outrage from more “normal” Muslims, because everything they stand for can be directly supported in Islamic theology and teachings. It might be nice to think of them as a “fringe” group or some crazies but they are not. [b]Everything they do can be justified in Islamic theology. [/b]
that is simply laughable and as far from the truth as it gets
so let’s take a for instance- do you think justification for beheadings can be found in the Quran?
the beheadings and other nonsense ISIS is doing is not justifiable in any way whatsoever islamically.
[link=http://binbayyah.net/english/2014/09/24/fatwa-response-to-isis/]http://binbayyah.net/engl…atwa-response-to-isis/[/link]
[link=https://freehalab.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/fatwa-against-isis-by-the-syrian-islamic-council/]https://freehalab.wordpre…yrian-islamic-council/[/link]
these are just a few of many similar condemnations. the notion that ISIS is in any form practicing Islam how it should be and the rest of the 99.99 % Muslims are not is simply ludicrous. -
Yeah, the vocal outrage from the “normal” Muslims was really deafening when they chopped off heads on the beach. Or perhaps I am just tone deaf.
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Or listening to the wrong media. In the past I’mn not sure I recall a deafening outrage from “normal” Christians about the Serbs in the Bosnian Waror Irish during the “Troubles.”
Did you protest? -
Quote from mgoblue
Quote from illinois
Quote from mgoblue
Quote from macrophallus
I’m not Christian but that argument is pretty absurd. ISIS is 8th century stuff and is [b]based firmly in Islamic theology[/b]. This is why there is not a whole lot of outrage from more “normal” Muslims, because everything they stand for can be directly supported in Islamic theology and teachings. It might be nice to think of them as a “fringe” group or some crazies but they are not. [b]Everything they do can be justified in Islamic theology. [/b]
that is simply laughable and as far from the truth as it gets
so let’s take a for instance- do you think justification for beheadings can be found in the Quran?
the beheadings and other nonsense ISIS is doing is not justifiable in any way whatsoever islamically.
[link=http://binbayyah.net/english/2014/09/24/fatwa-response-to-isis/]http://binbayyah.net/engl…atwa-response-to-isis/[/link]
[link=https://freehalab.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/fatwa-against-isis-by-the-syrian-islamic-council/]https://freehalab.wordpre…yrian-islamic-council/[/link]these are just a few of many similar condemnations. the notion that ISIS is in any form practicing Islam how it should be and the rest of the 99.99 % Muslims are not is simply ludicrous.
There isn’t an analogue to the Pope ie one authority in Islam. Not just one person can issue a fatwa. Obviously the people you cited above don’t have enough juice in the Muslim world as there is a whole lot of beheading going on; see ISIS and Saudi Arabia. [b]Read Quran 8:12 and 47:4.[/b] Did Muhammad ever preside over beheadings?
What do you think of the fatwa issued to behead Geert Wilders?
Also check out Pew poll re Egyptian and Pakistani Muslims who support stoning for adultery-82% – circa 2010-2011. Is this about what YOU would expect given your view of Islam?
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Wow, been away, refreshing to know illinois is another who isn’t deluded.
Liberals think all religions are the same … because they don’t take faith seriously. It’s the explanation for such ignorance. But keep fighting the good fight, maybe something will sink in. I doubt it though. -
Quote from illinois
Quote from mgoblue
Quote from illinois
Quote from mgoblue
Quote from macrophallus
I’m not Christian but that argument is pretty absurd. ISIS is 8th century stuff and is [b]based firmly in Islamic theology[/b]. This is why there is not a whole lot of outrage from more “normal” Muslims, because everything they stand for can be directly supported in Islamic theology and teachings. It might be nice to think of them as a “fringe” group or some crazies but they are not. [b]Everything they do can be justified in Islamic theology. [/b]
that is simply laughable and as far from the truth as it gets
so let’s take a for instance- do you think justification for beheadings can be found in the Quran?
the beheadings and other nonsense ISIS is doing is not justifiable in any way whatsoever islamically.
[link=http://binbayyah.net/english/2014/09/24/fatwa-response-to-isis/]http://binbayyah.net/engl…atwa-response-to-isis/[/link]
[link=https://freehalab.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/fatwa-against-isis-by-the-syrian-islamic-council/]https://freehalab.wordpre…yrian-islamic-council/[/link]these are just a few of many similar condemnations. the notion that ISIS is in any form practicing Islam how it should be and the rest of the 99.99 % Muslims are not is simply ludicrous.
There isn’t an analogue to the Pope ie one authority in Islam. Not just one person can issue a fatwa. Obviously the people you cited above don’t have enough juice in the Muslim world as there is a whole lot of beheading going on; see ISIS and Saudi Arabia. [b]Read Quran 8:12 and 47:4.[/b] Did Muhammad ever preside over beheadings?What do you think of the fatwa issued to behead Geert Wilders?
Also check out Pew poll re Egyptian and Pakistani Muslims who support stoning for adultery-82% – circa 2010-2011. Is this about what YOU would expect given your view of Islam?
yes there is no central authority like the pope within sunni islam (such a concept does exist with in Shiites).
ISIS and other extremist group will declare their own fatwas but again they don’t represent the 99.99% of muslims. in fact ISIS and others such with ideology are essentially outside the fold of Islam due to their views. their views are not new and trace back to the Kharijites from the 7th century who had similar extremist views rejected by the remainder of the islamic community at their time.
as for those verses, they have to be contextualized to the historical setting at that time as well as within the context of the verses before and after it within the passage. otherwise an isolated verse can be grossly perverted and misinterpreted (as they are by ISIS and their likes)
as for adultery, it is punishable by death (not necessarily stoning) by a legitimate islamic government (i dont believe one exists today despite the claims of some countries). that said it is ONLY punishable by death if 1) there are 4 witnesses to the act of penetration or 2) if someone by their own will turned themselves in.
in any case following the discussion here and on other threads, its quite evident we aren’t going to come to agreeing on this issue so i don’t see the real point in continuing it as its the same arguments being rehashed over and over. and i for one at least am perfectly content to agree to disagree! -
4 witnesses to the act of penetration sounds kinky, I may be forced to re-evaluate my opinions on the faith!
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Don Rumsfeld dead at 88.
Good thread title … should be his epitaph -
That, or the speech about unknown unknowns.
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They died with honor. They followed the command order. Honor/RIP
Quote from macrophallus
They signed up to follow the commander in chief who was elected by their countrymen. What can u do if the people of the country are so dumb as to elect a moron like GWB and invade Iraq unnecessarily. Sad cycle of failure of US foreign policy. Elections have consequences.
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Sadrad- I find this thread inappropriate, can you image the pain someone who lost a loved one would feel reading this thread? Who are you to dishonor those who have served with honor and in essence devalue their sacrifice. This is your opinion and while you have the right to express it, you really should think before you type. This type of sacrifice is not to be used to support or affirm political beliefs it should be honored and respected in its purest form. Again this is just my opinion, but I value and respect our service men and women despite politics–they deserve our respect, honor and support (period).!
-Peace Out-
It’s appropriate, peace. It is the reality of war, it is the reality of the Iraq war.
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SadRad, for better or worse, the current Commander in Chief is indifferent to your concern. That’s just a fact. It’s not his priority.
The doublespeak is crazy on this board. Assad isn’t half the villain Hussein was, and Obama and our other leaders created ISIS trying to get him out.
What’s the difference people? All you do is play a stupid retroactive blame game. The current administration’s foreign policy is an absolute disaster.-
I’ll pass on your Kool-Aid, cigar. ISIS existed in 2006 & is mentioned in briefings to Bush.
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amen Isis was created when the army was disbanded by Brenner who did his joe cool walk for photos…sadly the soldiers are still not being paid
Quote from Frumious
I’ll pass on your Kool-Aid, cigar. ISIS existed in 2006 & is mentioned in briefings to Bush.
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And Obama backed ISIS, not Assad.
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What does that mean?
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I have respect for the soldier, they are doing their duty with courage. It’s just sad that we can’t send the moron political hacks to go fight instead.
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fairytale…stay away from Fox
Quote from Cigar
And Obama backed ISIS, not Assad.
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They deposed all the so-called dictators and … Al QAEDA was a big thing again.
Are you guys really this delusional? Or are you like Baghdad Bob and yell, all together now, “The Arab Spring was great. It really worked”
While guys get torched alive. No. really.
You disgust me -
no what’s disgusting is this revision of history by the GOP loving ilk like u…u have had an axe to grind with Obama since his election
Quote from Cigar
They deposed all the so-called dictators and … Al QAEDA was a big thing again.
Are you guys really this delusional? Or are you like Baghdad Bob and yell, all together now, “The Arab Spring was great. It really worked”
While guys get torched alive. No. really.
You disgust me
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peace
Just to clarify, I have the highest respect for those who serve in uniform.
I’m frustrated that they were sent by the bush/Cheney admin to fight in a needless and stupid war.
My issue is not with rank and file military – I admire them.
My issue is with the previous commander in chief and the war he needlessly fought.
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To put in less than refined terms,
Dubya was a moron who needlessly invaded Iraq.
A lot of fine young Americans aren’t living and breathing at this moment thanks to Dubya’s decision.
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Since Clinton American Foreign Policy has been extremely lacking.
Obama’s incompetence may be equaled, but it’s not surpassed by any of his predecessors. That you aren’t honest enough to admit that is silly.
McCain also on the wrong side of foreign policy nearly every second he’s around -
I’m still waiting for the Republicans to authorize a declaration war on ISIS.
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Sure… Right after Obama calls them terrorists and acknowledges them besides blowing cigarette smoke up one arses
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Call Republicans terrorists?
That’s sure to get nothing done.
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