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Report: Global Democracy Under Threat, US Democracy in “accelerating decline”
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[h1]Bannon Threatens to Take Over US Election Apparatus[/h1]
Steve Bannon [link=https://youtu.be/cCKEMSQOhxs]threatened on his podcast[/link] to take over the U.S. election apparatus.
Said Bannon: I understand that you dont think thats democracy cuz the globalists have kind of done the misdirection plays and had everybody look in the other way. No, no, no, no, no. Those days are over.
He added: Because this audience has given of themselves before. Theyve been in the military. Theyve been, you know police officers and first responders. Theyve volunteered for their country before. Theyve taken an oath to the Constitution before. And guess what? They are now going to volunteer to go to become a precinct committeeman. Theyre going to volunteer to become an election official. Theyre going to come and run for county clerk and overthrow these county clerks.[/QUOTE]
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Guess this could go here. Interesting Twitter thread about why Russia will invade the Ukraine this winter.
[link=https://twitter.com/dalperovitch/status/1473362460673515527?s=21]https://twitter.com/dalpe…73362460673515527?s=21[/link]
In the last few weeks, I have become increasingly convinced that Kremlin has unfortunately made a decision to invade Ukraine later this winter. While it is still possible for Putin to deescalate, I believe the likelihood is now quite low. Allow me to explain why 🧵
— Dmitri Alperovitch (@DAlperovitch) December 21, 2021
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Richard Haass, President of the Council for Foreign Relations, prior advisor to HW Bush and Colin Powell: “Until recently, when I got up in the morning it didn’t occur to me that American democracy might be in the balance. It’s no longer a given. I don’t think it’s melodramatic to say this is the greatest crisis we’ve faced since the 19th century.”
[link=https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1475224836674887688]https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1475224836674887688[/link]
Laurence Tribe: “I’m afraid he’s right.”
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Hyperbolic much?
The biggest threat to democracy is the fact that our President is either 1. Senile or 2. In an extreme bubble. Otherwise, he would never say “I agree, let’s go brandon”
That’s way more of a threat than any made up leftist wet dream.
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Yeah. Joe Biden was ready to storm the capitol.
The one thing that I dont understand is this whole FJB and Lets go Brandon thing. Its like adult MAGA folks think its some sort of own the lib moment. In reality I just think it shows the childish mentality of these people. The type of child like development that makes them susceptible to conspiracy about how Trump won. Trump won but yet him and pillow bro cant show one iota of evidence. His plan is just repeat the lie and the rubes believe it. But yeah Joe Biden has the problem.
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Okay look, I don’t care how childish or silly it is. If Biden is unaware of it then he is either senile or in a small isolated bubble where people are keeping information from him (essentially a puppet). How else can you explain it?
This is a sitting President we are talking about that is either a puppet or senile. Does that not bother any of you?-
Yep, it’s silly. Was genuinely funny when it happened and maybe for a day or two after.
But this phonecall is frightening. The reply should have been a ‘come on man’ or some other reply that makes clear that he knows what this was about. Bubble boy.
Democrats are quietly looking who they can plug in when he retires prematurely ‘due to health reasons’. Of course, the official reason won’t be R41.89 but rather some ‘act of god’ completely unforseeable thing. Harris is a dud and there is nobody in the cabinet who could step up.-
So Biden didnt tell the person F off. Thats Much more frightening than the guy who thinks Putin, XI, and Kim Ding Dong are his besties. You know those guys those guys really care about The US. If only we had 4 more years of man, woman, camera, TV. Give me the corrupt guy who is also severely mentally ill. A person who lives in their own alternate reality. Thats really the other option right?
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Uh yes it’s much more frightening to know that our President is either a puppet or senile.
Not even close to made up Lefty stuff and opinions. -
Quote from DICOM_Dan
So Biden didnt tell the person F off. Thats Much more frightening than the guy who thinks Putin, XI, and Kim Ding Dong are his besties.
False equivalency.
The last guy was evil and incompetent for the job. The current one is senile. We are screwed.-
Quote from fw
Quote from DICOM_Dan
So Biden didnt tell the person F off. Thats Much more frightening than the guy who thinks Putin, XI, and Kim Ding Dong are his besties.
False equivalency.
The last guy was evil and incompetent for the job. The current one is senile. We are screwed.
Yep! And just look at the all of the winners that could be the next one!-
Quote from Cubsfan10
Yep! And just look at the all of the winners that could be the next one!
Governor Death Sentence vs. Marty Walsh.
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I mean, if Biden has significant cognitive impairment (not really discussing the yes/no/how much), it’s not really a threat to our democracy. We constitutional guiderails to address that. (And honestly, I think if it got as bad in the future, Biden would indeed be pushed out and leave without causing a crisis) ….
So, can have the Biden discussion in whatever thread, but not really a “democracy” problem.
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As for hyperbole, neither Haass nor Tribe are known as pearl clutchers. They’re in “solid policy advisor” camp. That’s one of the reasons I find the warning significant.
Adding one more …
[link=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/full-transcript-correspondents-roundtable-face-the-nation-12-26-2021/]https://www.cbsnews.com/n…the-nation-12-26-2021/[/link]
Yesterday, CBS Pentagon correspondent David Martin asked by Margret Brennan:
MB: When you look at what’s happening right now and the folks you talk to at the Pentagon, do they believe the biggest national security threat is internal or external?
Martin: Internal, no question. Military people will say that to you. The biggest threat to the United States of America is a reincarnation of Jan 6th. And if we lose our democracy. What the heck is all that other stuff, who cares about hypersonic weapons if you don’t have a democracy. So, yes. … Well, they had their own dress rehearsal during that period, from the election up to Jan. 6, when the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was almost convinced and certainly worried that Donald Trump was going to declare some sort of national emergency that would allow him to suspend the results of the election. And the military made a lot of preparations for dealing with that, and they seem quite confident that a president can’t get away with that because he would have to issue an illegal order to them and they are bound by law not to carry out illegal orders.
If not broad consensus, there is at least a large plurality of experts and insiders who are gravely concerned about the possibility of a true democratic crisis coming out of a future contested election, possibly as early as 2024. I absolutely do not think that is hyperbole.
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Lol
I like how they think thats an actual threat to democracy based on a few hundred weirdos walking around taking pictures in the Capitol but billions of dollars of damages and tens of deaths across major cities from purposeful rioting is no biggie.
The chances of an actual “insurrection” are equal to the chances of the kkk re instituting slavery in the south or the neo nazis starting up the holocaust again.
Exactly zero. Its ridiculous for them to even give it a second thought.
China is national security threats 1, 2, and 3 with Iran and North Korea rounding out the top 5.
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Quote from dergon
I mean, if Biden has significant cognitive impairment (not really discussing the yes/no/how much), it’s not really a threat to our democracy. We constitutional guiderails to address that. (And honestly, I think if it got as bad in the future, Biden would indeed be pushed out and leave without causing a crisis) ….
So, can have the Biden discussion in whatever thread, but not really a “democracy” problem.
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As for hyperbole, neither Haass nor Tribe are known as pearl clutchers. They’re in “solid policy advisor” camp. That’s one of the reasons I find the warning significant.
Adding one more …
[link=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/full-transcript-correspondents-roundtable-face-the-nation-12-26-2021/]https://www.cbsnews.com/n…the-nation-12-26-2021/[/link]
Yesterday, CBS Pentagon correspondent David Martin asked by Margret Brennan:
MB: When you look at what’s happening right now and the folks you talk to at the Pentagon, do they believe the biggest national security threat is internal or external?
Martin: Internal, no question. Military people will say that to you. The biggest threat to the United States of America is a reincarnation of Jan 6th. And if we lose our democracy. What the heck is all that other stuff, who cares about hypersonic weapons if you don’t have a democracy. So, yes. … Well, they had their own dress rehearsal during that period, from the election up to Jan. 6, when the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was almost convinced and certainly worried that Donald Trump was going to declare some sort of national emergency that would allow him to suspend the results of the election. And the military made a lot of preparations for dealing with that, and they seem quite confident that a president can’t get away with that because he would have to issue an illegal order to them and they are bound by law not to carry out illegal orders.
If not broad consensus, there is at least a large plurality of experts and insiders who are gravely concerned about the possibility of a true democratic crisis coming out of a future contested election, possibly as early as 2024. I absolutely do not think that is hyperbole.
I find your reaction appropriate for your political stance dergon. I on the other hand find consolation in the fact that our military was on guard the way they were. Yes, the threat was absolutely real. Many people stepped up to turn it back. I see nothing to suggest there wont be a bigger push back if tried again. Of course there is value in trying to convince people otherwise if their intention is to keep the enemy out of office.
Sadly, I think the plan is going to backfire for the democrats. We are likely to see a real shift towards the right in our representatives. I was hoping to see a shift from both extremes to the middle.-
Except for military men like General Flynns brother.
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The “few hundred weirdos” is just one facet.
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So is violent rioting.
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Nothing to see here move on
The bigger threat is masks and vaccine mandates
Overturning an election and attempting a coo????
Nothing to see there
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The only threat of an actual coup was the lies about Russia and the subsequent sham impeachment.
That was way closer to an actual coup than idiots running around the Capitol, especially since it involved high level people in government, politics, and the media.-
You are absolutely right
Just a bunch of humble patriots who cares so deeply about our country that they took sheets on the capital floor broke windows doors and furniture and were looking to kill members of Congress
God bless these patriotic Mericans
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Good podcast on the threat to democracies.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-good-fight/id1198765424?i=1000545353414]https://podcasts.apple.co…765424?i=1000545353414[/link]-
I can see why you liked that Frumious. I would ask are you beyond consolation? There is much to be learned by listening to the last part rather than dwelling on the first.
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Quote from Frumious
Good podcast on the threat to democracies.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-good-fight/id1198765424?i=1000545353414]https://podcasts.apple.co…765424?i=1000545353414[/link]
And from the same people I share this.
[link=https://www.persuasion.community/p/14-reasons-that-democracy-survived]14 Reasons that Democracy Survived – Persuasion[/link]-
We only have an illusion of democracy. The deep state military industrial complex rules.
Those in power want to stay in power and gain more power, hence the shift toward socialism which is exactly the form of government that gives them the most power.
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CF you sound delusional there.
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If we had a true democracy then we wouldn’t always be voting for hand-picked candidates chosen through the deep state – people who we wouldn’t normally hire to work the cash register at McDonald’s.
If we had a true democracy, then all major changes to our society wouldn’t be through un-elected bureaucrats.
You get the idea.
The Deep state is democracy and yet it is not democracy at all. -
Quote from Cubsfan10
If we had a true democracy then we wouldn’t always be voting for hand-picked candidates chosen through the deep state – people who we wouldn’t normally hire to work the cash register at McDonald’s.
If we had a true democracy, then all major changes to our society wouldn’t be through un-elected bureaucrats.
You get the idea.
The Deep state is democracy and yet it is not democracy at all.
Ah. So you are with the gang that has decided democracy is dead? Just on the other side? I get it.
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Not sure we ever had it. We had a constitutional republic with well-defined parameters to ensure certain people maintained control.
We have come a long way from feudal society but there is definitely still modern class stratification. Who doesn’t want to be one of the “elites” that gets fame and fortune on the backs of the plebeians?
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Not sure we ever had it. We had a constitutional republic with well-defined parameters to ensure certain people maintained control.
We have come a long way from feudal society but there is definitely still modern class stratification. Who doesn’t want to be one of the “elites” that gets fame and fortune on the backs of the plebeians?
Gotcha. Are you not satisfied with being one of the elites? -
Naïve sure. Charles Flynn with held the guard. Charles Flynn has ties to Mike Flynn and the whole Trump gangs plan to try and overthrow the government. Its not like hes the outlier. Its more like this has never happened before.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Naïve sure. Charles Flynn with held the guard. Charles Flynn has ties to Mike Flynn and the whole Trump gangs plan to try and overthrow the government. Its not like hes the outlier. Its more like this has never happened before.
Why dont you just state what you think is happening instead of the innuendo? I believe there are plenty of people around to protect our democracy, regardless of the side they are on. Do you believe differently? is everyone that has the name of their political party or their family tattooed on their sleeve by their opponent so attached they cant do the right thing? I see why that would be a good narrative to sell.
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Quote from Thread Killer
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Naïve sure. Charles Flynn with held the guard. Charles Flynn has ties to Mike Flynn and the whole Trump gangs plan to try and overthrow the government. Its not like hes the outlier. Its more like this has never happened before.
Why dont you just state what you think is happening instead of the innuendo? I believe there are plenty of people around to protect our democracy, regardless of the side they are on. Do you believe differently? is everyone that has the name of their political party or their family tattooed on their sleeve by their opponent so attached they cant do the right thing? I see why that would be a good narrative to sell.
“Plenty of people around to protect” coming up against plenty of people bent of destroying it …. that’s a recipe for massive civil unrest.
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As “side” they are on, that depends. If you define the “sides” as pro-Trump/ anti-Trump, then NO. There are not lots of people on the pro-Trump side looking to protect democracy. Fealty to Trump correlates closely with anti-democratic sentiment and autocracy.
Are there *Republicans* committed to democracy? Of course. But not enough. And they’re being purged/intimidated/primaried/ridiculed/harassed/ forced into retirement.
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Quote from dergon
Quote from Thread Killer
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Naïve sure. Charles Flynn with held the guard. Charles Flynn has ties to Mike Flynn and the whole Trump gangs plan to try and overthrow the government. Its not like hes the outlier. Its more like this has never happened before.
Why dont you just state what you think is happening instead of the innuendo? I believe there are plenty of people around to protect our democracy, regardless of the side they are on. Do you believe differently? is everyone that has the name of their political party or their family tattooed on their sleeve by their opponent so attached they cant do the right thing? I see why that would be a good narrative to sell.
“Plenty of people around to protect” coming up against plenty of people bent of destroying it …. that’s a recipe for massive civil unrest.
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As “side” they are on, that depends. If you define the “sides” as pro-Trump/ anti-Trump, then NO. There are not lots of people on the pro-Trump side looking to protect democracy. Fealty to Trump correlates closely with anti-democratic sentiment and autocracy.
Are there *Republicans* committed to democracy? Of course. But not enough. And they’re being purged/intimidated/primaried/ridiculed/harassed/ forced into retirement.
Yes, a recipe for civil unrest. Last I checked we have had many episodes of such and each time they were periods which proved the strength of our democracy not its accelerating decline.
Agree there are not enough Republicans on the correct side to win some key primaries. Those ridiculous candidates should be taken care of in the general elections except for some terribly gerrymandered districts. Thats what your side is for. Please rally Democrats to help defeat them as you did in Georgia. You have more to give than being a hobby poster.
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Quote from Thread Killer
Quote from Frumious
Good podcast on the threat to democracies.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-good-fight/id1198765424?i=1000545353414]https://podcasts.apple.co…765424?i=1000545353414[/link]And from the same people I share this.
[link=https://www.persuasion.community/p/14-reasons-that-democracy-survived]14 Reasons that Democracy Survived – Persuasion[/link]Of course you’d prefer that article. It’s too much naïve Pollyanna that your tribe isn’t all that dangerous. worse, it concluded that because we don’t have an authoritarian government now, we have nothing to fear.
It’s also 1 year old written shortly after Jan 6 attack. Much has been learned since then and much is being done by Republican state regimes to undermine democratic voting that will ensure a Republican candidate wins, if not by vote then by Republican legislators appointing people who are willing to decree the winner instead of counting votes. In too many cases around the world anti-democratic authoritarians do win elections, start with the Nazis winning right up to today’s dictators. The work to dismantle democracy is done after to ensure continued control, something we are seeing live in our government as well as in Russia, China, Turkey, the latest right-wing hero, Viktor Orbán of Hungary and so on.
From March 2020: [link=https://www.persuasion.community/p/dark-days-for-democracy]https://www.persuasion.co…ark-days-for-democracy[/link]
[b][/b]The report also lamented the eclipse of U.S. leadership during the Trump presidencynot just the attempt to overturn the 2020 election (arguably the most destructive act of his time in office), but also the previous four years of condoning and indeed pardoning official malfeasance, ducking accountability for his own transgressions, and encouraging racist and right-wing extremists. While noting that many U.S. institutions held up, Freedom House warned that it may take years to appreciate and address the effects of the experience on Americans ability to come together and collectively uphold a set of civic values.
The long democratic recession is deepening, the independent watchdog Freedom House said in an [link=https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2021/democracy-under-siege]annual report[/link], which evaluates 195 countries and 15 territories, citing 25 indicators of political rights and civil liberties to assign the status of free, partly free, or not free. The rise of authoritarianism last year, Freedom House said, was part of a new global status quo in which acts of repression went unpunished and democracys advocates were increasingly isolated.
[link=https://www.persuasion.community/p/vindman-and-kasparov-is-american]https://www.persuasion.co…d-kasparov-is-american[/link]
[b][/b][b]Kasparov[/b]:But I warned AmericansI can just point at my tweets at the timethat soon with Donald Trump, well discover how much of the American democratic system is based on honor, on traditions, on certain political rules that are not written in the law books. I also wanted to warn the American public that democracy doesnt die overnight. Its not about tanks in the streets. Its about the gradual disappearance of checks and balances. And thats what Trump was very good at. I could see him doing it, one by one. Many of our Republican senators who voted to acquit Trump will be sorry later on. And Im afraid that we havent seen the worst. Thats why I think these elections will be a very important turning point in American history.
[b]Vindman[/b]: Our constitution is not likely to change anytime soon. Its built to not change significantlyit takes a really significant effort by politicians to do that. But thats not where the changes are occurring. Theyre occurring, as Garry alluded to, in the undermining of norms and customs and practices. Russia itself has a pretty strong constitution. But the country is not governed by the constitution; theres not a rule of law that unfolds in accordance with the constitution. And what were seeing now is basically an attack by the president and his proxies on the foundations that make America strong. I experienced it first-hand with regards to the Department of Defense, where you now have close consideration by senior military and civilian officials of what happens if you run afoul of the president. And people are starting to hunker down and consider, What happens to me, what happens to my career, what happens to the years I put into service if I prove to be disloyal? And those are the kinds of things that frankly in a 4-year administration have been eroded, but in an 8-year administration could really be severely undermined, and really change the base of the United States.
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Here are 2 more podcasts, more recently done by today’s newly named RINOs.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beg-to-differ-with-mona-charen/id1482179882?i=1000544579924]https://podcasts.apple.co…179882?i=1000544579924[/link]
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beg-to-differ-with-mona-charen/id1482179882?i=1000545295015]https://podcasts.apple.co…179882?i=1000545295015[/link]-
Thank you Frumi. Dont you realize you are proving my point by showing more and more republicans or ex republicans willing to stand up and do the right thing? Its why your party is going to fail miserably during its best chance to hang onto power.
The threat to democracy argument is a tool, not a reality.
What do we hear from the weak? They wont let us!
Mommy, I want to play on the swing but they wont let us!
And realize Frumi thats a criticism of the weak on both sides. There are definitely way too many in the Republican Party. Fortunately not enough to crush democracy.
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And Frumi. I just read more of your words. One last time. Its not my tribe.I dont belong and I am not accepted in any tribe because I call out tribalism when I see it and criticize poor behavior and thinking without regard to what tribal affiliation they have.
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Quote from Thread Killer
And Frumi. I just read more of your words. One last time. Its not my tribe.I dont belong and I am not accepted in any tribe because I call out tribalism when I see it and criticize poor behavior and thinking without regard to what tribal affiliation they have.
And I’m not really a liberal progressive either, I just talk like one.
And I tend to notice others who aren’t of the Trump tribe, who just talk like them. -
Talk like them. Perfect. Youre correct. You lump me into the tribe you are most familiar with calling out your non progressive nonsense. Its much easier than thinking about and coming up with a factual and logical rebuttal. Its a nice crutch.
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Quote from Frumious
Of course you’d prefer that article. It’s too much naïve Pollyanna that your tribe isn’t all that dangerous. worse, it concluded that because we don’t have an authoritarian government now, we have nothing to fear.
[b]It’s also 1 year old written shortly after Jan 6 attack. [/b]
[b] [/b]
[b]From March 2020:[/b]
[link=https://www.persuasion.community/p/dark-days-for-democracy]https://www.persuasion.co…ark-days-for-democracy[/link]
[b] [/b][link=https://www.persuasion.community/p/vindman-and-kasparov-is-american]https://www.persuasion.co…d-kasparov-is-american[/link]
[b] [/b]
And so as a rebuttal you give me two examples written even earlier?! That is priceless. Absolutely priceless!-
Do you even know how to read dates?
Apparently not. -
Quote from Frumious
Do you even know how to read dates?
Apparently not.
I read your [b]March 2020 [/b]proclamation and the second one is:
Is American Democracy Dying?[/h1] Vindman, Kasparov and Applebaum discuss the dangers of a second Trump term[/h3] [size=”4″]Oct 24, 2020[/size] What am I missing?[/h1]
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Quote from Frumious
[b]It’s also 1 year old written shortly after Jan 6 attack. Much has been learned since then[/b] and much is being done by Republican state regimes to undermine democratic voting that will ensure a Republican candidate wins, if not by vote then by Republican legislators appointing people who are willing to decree the winner instead of counting votes.
From March 2020:
“[b]1 year old written shortly after” [/b]as though it has less meaning? So why not give me something written [b]”since then”? [/b]
Ah, you think your pieces were somehow prophetic? My piece dealt with the fact that there were American heroes that kept the attack from succeeding. There always will be. Unless one waits until the other side “lets them”.
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[b]Big Majority of Republicans Say Biden Didnt Win[/b][/h1]
A new [link=https://www.umass.edu/news/article/one-year-later-new-umass-amherst-poll-finds-continued-national-political-division-over?_gl=1*1alspzh*_ga*MTI0NDM4NjgzMy4xNjQwNzMzNTE4*_ga_21RLS0L7EB*MTY0MDczMzUxOC4xLjAuMTY0MDczMzUxOC4w&_ga=2.163718015.1949251116.1640733519-1244386833.1640733518]University of Massachusetts Amherst Poll[/link] finds 71% of Republicans and one-third of the nation continue to believe that Joe Bidens victory in 2020 was illegitimate. -
Ah, but the “sane” Republicans will….
do nothing at all except join in on the bandwagon. Those who do believe Biden won are Republicans without a party, AKA RINOs. -
Quote from dergon
[b]Big Majority of Republicans Say Biden Didnt Win[/b]
A new [link=https://www.umass.edu/news/article/one-year-later-new-umass-amherst-poll-finds-continued-national-political-division-over?_gl=1*1alspzh*_ga*MTI0NDM4NjgzMy4xNjQwNzMzNTE4*_ga_21RLS0L7EB*MTY0MDczMzUxOC4xLjAuMTY0MDczMzUxOC4w&_ga=2.163718015.1949251116.1640733519-1244386833.1640733518]University of Massachusetts Amherst Poll[/link] finds 71% of Republicans and one-third of the nation continue to believe that Joe Bidens victory in 2020 was illegitimate.
65% of Dems said Trump wasn’t legit.
[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/334972-poll-dems-dont-accept-trump-as-legitimate-president]https://thehill.com/homen…s-legitimate-president[/link]
Classic! -
I do remember many calling trump illegitimate
When you lose the popular vote but win and electoral college
there will always be a group that claims illegitimateIm dont expect you to understand the difference between winning nationally by 8 million votes and winning the electoral college considerable margin
Its all the same color to
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The old apples to orangutan argument and then claim both sides are somehow the same
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OK. We have officially left the topic of this thread. People are now left trying to prove one side is better than the other. I have a take on that one. I’m going to side with chiro, Frumi and dergon there.
Still does not prove this premise of “US Democracy in “accelerating decline”. All I have seen on that front has been a bunch paranoid pontificating from a group that thinks it will help their side get more votes. They are wrong and it is going to hurt their cause. I sincerely wish it wasn’t so.
I am more confident than ever that the strong majority will come to the correct conclusions regarding protecting our democracy. Might not mean we I’ll get to my preferred middle ground though. Too many people are afraid they are not being allowed to ride the swing and choose to write about it rather than take charge. -
While I do think there’s a significant difference between “Not my President” and “Not [b]the[/b] President,” the odds that Democrats view the next Republican as having stolen the election is very high.
I don’t think that most federal elected Democrats are at this point as far down the anti-democratic road as to pull a Jan 6 equivalent … but if the perception among the US citizenry, especially if it’s a [b]majority[/b] that feels an autocratic right has “stolen” 2024/2028, the set up is also there for democratic decline.
I could easily see CA / NY state level politicians essentially declaring that EOs from the current administration (and its “stolen” SCOTUS) are invalid and won’t be followed.
The Republican party is further down the road on the anti-democratic front, but it’s a concern about the whole of the American political scene. -
Quote from dergon
While I do think there’s a significant difference between “Not my President” and “Not [b]then[/b] President,” the odds that Democrats view the next Republican as having stolen the election is very high.
The 1st time I ever heard a politician or anyone say, “Not MY president!” about the winner of an election was by Bob Dole about Bill Clinton’s win in 1992. Bobbie-boy went on to run against Billy-boy in 1996 and lost definitely. But Dole then did not call for an insurrection. Neither did Democrats call for an insurrection in 2000 when the Conservative Supremes feared a Democratic President Gore so much they promptly handed the office to their Republican candidate, Bush, on some flimsy rationale.
No, this IS a 1 sided thing as Republicans have already done an insurrection and support it while the speculation about Democrats pulling the same thing is only that – mere empty speculation about what they MIGHT do, IF.
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65% of Dems said Trump wasn’t legit.
[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/334972-poll-dems-dont-accept-trump-as-legitimate-president]https://thehill.com/homen…s-legitimate-president[/link]
Stop calling it an insurrection. They weren’t even armed. You’re doing yourself a disservice by hyperbolizing it.
Also, you know this happened: [link=https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/thousands-storm-capitol-as-gop-takes-action/article_260247e0-4ac4-11e0-bfa9-001cc4c03286.html]https://madison.com/wsj/n…bfa9-001cc4c03286.html[/link]
And similar things before it.
By all means keep pushing this fiction though because like everything else, your side will overreach and it will back-fire on you. -
Just heard a joke about Ghislaine Maxwell’s conviction:
“True love is finishing each other’s sentences.”
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Sure. There are always outliers. Nice when they are the exception.
But remember DCD? I am naïve…
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I reject that label as I have no true power, only a higher allowance in a rigged system.
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Fair enough. You acknowledge your higher allowance. Who is it more rigged against? Is it really you?
I believe there is plenty for all of us. The system may not be perfect but its better than any other I have seen or read about. Im surprised someone so privileged is so bothered.
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Quote from Thread Killer
Thank you Frumi. Dont you realize you are proving my point by showing more and more republicans or ex republicans willing to stand up and do the right thing? Its why your party is going to fail miserably during its best chance to hang onto power.
Very disingenuous arguments you make. How many Neville Chamberlains are we supposed to believe?
“Ex-” Republicans who speak against Trump & today’s GQP are anything but proving your point about Republicans supporting democracy. Those who are ex-Republicans will be the 1st to point out how they’ve been expelled from the GQP. Those “ex-“Republicans are the 1st who will tell you they are voting for Democrats since there is no alternate choice coming from the GQP party. They are defined by their own ex-compatriots as RINOs.
A “moderate” Republican is an oxymoron.
Yes, Democrats might lose. But suffering fools by understanding the GQP whose whole platform is white identity politics and cult-of-personality around Trump isn’t the way. History is long on the failures of appeasing authoritarians and their supporters.-
Hey Frumi. How much did I sound like them in my latest response to cub?
You dont have any clue what tribalism is.
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And please stop with the they wont let us arguments. You should have the entire democrat party, independents and moderate republicans at your disposal the way Clinton and Obama did. Why are you failing us now?
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And no, its not the Trump supporters, unless of course you want to wait until they offer you a spot on the swing.
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Low probability, high impact, possible military coup in 2024.
Depends on who military members think is or should be president after election in 2024.
[link=https://www.npr.org/2021/12/29/1068895489/low-probability-high-impact-3-generals-warn-of-a-potential-military-coup-in-2024]https://www.npr.org/2021/…-military-coup-in-2024[/link]-
Those generals always so hyperbolic
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Did you listen? Low probability but should be considered with plans of how to make sure it does not happen. Sounds smart to me. This is an indicator of the “accelerating decline” of democracy?
I’ve told you guys I have talked to retired Joint Chiefs of Staff regarding this stuff. They don’t like Trump and they would have definitely made sure the chain of command was followed. Who are these military personnel that are going to go rogue following? Remember the sitting President will be a Democrat this time…
Maybe I need to take a different approach here. Because I have no tribal affiliation I can pick and choose what things to do to support my desire to move from the extreme poles of politics and influence people. I’m not waiting until somebody “let’s me”. I would hope the hobby posters do the same. We both want the same thing. Get the extreme right wing republicans out of office. Are you with me?-
And I again I apologize if I was heavy handed in my approach. It’s easy to do that when anonymous. I have had success working together with members of every political spectrum when we can talk and look each other in the eye. My favorite exchanges have been with members of the Pelosi family and their close friends. We all want the same thing.
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I was ready recently about the Trial
Of Arron BurrThere really have been scammers and traitors since the beginning of our republic
Hopefully this too will pass
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Quote from Chirorad84
I was ready recently about the Trial
Of Arron BurrThere really have been scammers and traitors since the beginning of our republic
Hopefully this too will pass
Finally someone who gets it. Read the history of our democracy. This is bad but it has been worse. It will pass when the majority is recognized where it is. Pretty much in the middle. Stop listening to those that tell us we have to move on but they wont let us. When the fringe does things damaging to the our democratic ideals, get out and vote like they did in GA. There are plenty of people willing and able to vote no matter how egregious the attempted shenanigans are.-
This is bad but it has been worse.
Yes the time before the civil war was worse
But we are getting pretty bad
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Things are bad now?
Has the current President been impeached because of a fake story paid for by his opposing political party that was backed up by partisan actors attempting a non-violent coup after declaring the Presidential election was illegitimate?
Or wait? when was that?
Oh right, the couple of hundred non-violent protestors with no power at all are the threat to democracy. Yeah totally worse now!-
A made up argument. No president to date has ever been impeached over a fake story.
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Quote from Chirorad84
This is bad but it has been worse.
Yes the time before the civil war was worse
But we are getting pretty bad
Agree. However, I believe that trying to argue how bad and using that to try to win the my side is better war is making it worse. Go back and read history to understand why. The best we can do is be skeptical about what we are reading and listening to about current politics. Ask ourselves what is the piece trying to tell us. Most of the time its trying get us angry at the other side.
I have decided to pass judgment based on what I see in my daily life. Right in front of me. I see the majority doing nice things for each other. I witnessed a woman berate a server at a restaurant the other day. 10x came to the servers defense and after the offender left, there were many more being extra nice to the server. Its a phenomenon I recently noticed. Compensatory kindness. Its what happens when people interact in person. The opposite happens in anonymous message forums, usually-
I dont know
I do think eventually we will all come to our senses but I honestly have my doubts
There have always been half truths and conspiracy innuendo but the degree of frickin craziness which I believe is brought by the new media of the internet is a definite curveball
I mean we have seventy percent of republicans thinking the election was somehow stolen from trump with absolutely no proof whatsoever of significant voter frauds
In fact they have even been not only refuted by states controlled by their own party but even a seperate biased audit in Arizona by a handpicked group of trumplicans could not find anything remotely significant
But yet again they dont believe
That is different than any other time in our history and its very worrisome
Again this is not an a group of fringe liberals upset that their person won the popular vote but lost the electoral college
This is bat sheet crazy stuff
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Well we have 70% of republican “respondents” to a poll but point taken and it is “bat sheet crazy”.
I am trying to offer encouragement from someone who is uniquely positioned outside of any tribe. I see good signs every day. I truly believe those of us that are not “bat sheet crazy” will see us through this mess.
Your point about the “new media of the internet” is an important one. It’s why I teach my kids how to read and listen with an unbiased and critical ear. If I find one place of maximum encouragement it is in their minds.-
Unfortunately many people especially those over 65 and the under educated do not know how to use the internet
Thats why all of our grandfathers are mad and our grandmas are afraid
A lot of people are very easily influenced by material that they either wish to believe or are afraid of
And today when you can access this info in a second many of these people cannot handle the information
I really believe thats why there is so much misinformation being passed along as fact or even relevant
The internet mind Fs those of us who cant think critically
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Quote from Chirorad84
The internet mind Fs those of us who cant think critically
That is correct. One of the biggest failures I see is reading a headline and not looking at the actual data in the story. -
Exactly the problem. Everyone can blame “The Media” for outright lies in front of our faces. Everyone can blame “The Politicians” for all of their transparent lies. Some can blame “Both Sides” equally if they aren’t paying attention to real events. But the bottom line is just how credible are these excuses when he real problem is credulous voters who believe this crazy stuff? I mean “Q” as a reliable source of information? Alex Jones? Fox “News?”
A great many of these believers have advanced degrees. Some of the posts here on AM make me blink and facepalm. No all of the crazy posts on AM are made by “fake” physicians who are “only” techs or nurses, etc, as if that would explain anything outside of class bias.
Anti-intellectualism has been with us since the establishment of the republic.
And long before. Repeating myself, in the 1950’s, there was an essay written by Hofstadter, “The Paranoid Style Of American Politics.”
[link=https://faculty.washington.edu/jwilker/353/Hofstadter.pdf]https://faculty.washingto…ker/353/Hofstadter.pdf[/link]
The problem isn’t that this all suddenly appeared, it is that it exists still, despite education.
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I’m pretty sure the Internet is the thing that warps people right?
It’s more the fact that they spend 99% of their time in partisan echo chambers on the Internet.
Living life and meeting people – understanding their points of view…that’s what helps.
The lack of critical thinking is a problem that’s about 50 years old (maybe older?) and stems from the public education system (and universities) shifting over to an equity based indoctrination system instead of an equality based education system. The majority of citizens have now grown up in such a twisted system.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
The lack of critical thinking is a problem that’s about 50 years old (maybe older?) and stems from the public education system (and universities) shifting over to an equity based indoctrination system instead of an equality based education system.
Oh, the past was better before the spoilers ruined everything. Especially public schooling.
No. This is total nonsense. Silly. And not believable in any sense.
Give me some examples of how things were better 50 years ago. Let’s not start with technology like computers and iPhones, let’s just talk about who exactly was so much smarter than today’s public educated people? -
As if the Gods were listening…serendipity:
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/12/29/american-conspiracy-theories-essay/]https://www.washingtonpos…piracy-theories-essay/[/link]
Yet nearly six decades after JFKs assassination, a significant majority of Americans believe that what really happened here was covered up or at least very seriously distorted by someone.
I have spent this year thinking and writing about the draw to conspiracy theories, the perverse comfort they provide and the damage they can cause. Today in the United States, we are living in an era of segregated belief, of divergent realities, at a time when social media has brought us nearer to one another than ever before. It is not just that there is disagreement. Certified and recertified elections are in dispute. Viruses and their lifesaving vaccines are in dispute. So often, facts themselves are in dispute. My focus has been on telling intimate stories about people navigating these conflicts within their families and communities.
…evidence can be so very easily overtaken by fantasy, and stay that way.
QAnon followers believe that former president Donald Trump spent his time as president battling a cabal of Satan-worshiping deep state Democrats who traffic children for sex, a paranoia that has often led to valuable resources being diverted away from real missing children cases. Since the 2020 election, they have also come to believe that Trumps loss was the result of massive fraud, a disproved conspiracy theory that has in turn created a real threat to our democracy and elections. Going further than the 7 in 10 Republican voters [link=https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_111521/]who believe the same[/link] election conspiracy, Q followers also assure with prophetic zeal that Trump will be reinstated imminently. Mass arrests of the countrys corrupt elite and a Great Awakening will follow, they say.
And yet researchers who track such suspicions with polling say there is no evidence that more people in America believe in conspiracy theories today than in previous eras. That is in part because they have always been quite common among the American public and throughout U.S. history. Virtually everyone believes in a conspiracy theory or two, experts say, and most of the time it causes no problems at all.
If we can conceive of truth as a process, then consider how the Internet has changed the ways we barter over it. It is not only more visible than before because of social media, but, in fact, the search for truth is also messier than it used to be now that everyone has a video production studio in their pockets. Today, it is harder to avoid other peoples delusions, and yet also easier to seclude ourselves away online with people who share our own. It is possible to do it all relatively anonymously.
[b]To understand the lure of conspiracy theories and alternate realities, you have to interrogate what people get out of believing such things.[/b]
[b]You have to understand the human emotions fear, estrangement, resentment that underlie them.[/b]
[b]And you need to appreciate the whole story: We are not living in the age of conspiracy theories in America. We are living in America, a country with a deep tradition of them.[/b]
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Side note
The Netflix movie Dont Look up is definitely worth the watch
It was made to be a global
Warming parodyBut its more of a spoof on todays society and political climate
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Reminded me of today’s “Dr. Strangelove, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb,” and that film was referring to things 50 years ago, when people were smarter?
Nah.
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That’s pretty funny Frumious. What do you think the author is telling you? Does your critical reading and thinking conclude it is supportive of your position in here? Wow if that is your conclusion.
Maybe I need to make it more clear. It’s not about which side is more outrageous or dangerous although you and Cub are doing your best to continue that ridiculous narrative. I have already told you if [b]I, a non partisan non tribe member[/b], have to choose I easily side with you and chiro and dergon and DCD that the far right is much more of a threat to our democracy than the left.
But that’s just it. It’s a threat and it’s been there since the beginning. Just like your article shows. This country has a deep tradition of conspiracy theories and yet we somehow trudge on allowing the structure of our constitution and the moral fiber of the majority of populace to do the right thing in the end. There are times when it requires people from both “sides” to come together to do the right thing and this happens to be one of them. It’s already happening I can assure you. Get out and see the world rather than reading your political opinion pieces and posting them on here as fact.
The only thing I have pointed out over the last few months in here is that your method of damning everyone who is under the same “label” as part of the “Q” is doing more harm than good.-
Quote from Thread Killer
[b]I, a non partisan non tribe member[/b],
No, you’re just Tucker Carlson asking questions.
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
LOL
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I didn’t say people were smarter back then. I said they were more free thinking given the lack of constant indoctrination by the elites that control all levers of power. If you want to be on a side Frumi then fine, I give your side credit for the slow and methodical brain-washing of an entire generation of people when they were most vulnerable. Good work.
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I said they were more free thinking given the lack of constant indoctrination by the elites that control all levers of power.
I guess we should always just accepted the wonderful southerners who looked after their grateful slaves like their own children and took care of them were very good people and those mean ole northern elites just trampled on their states rights
History through a rose colored lens
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Quote from Thread Killer
That’s pretty funny Frumious. What do you think the author is telling you? Does your critical reading and thinking conclude it is supportive of your position in here? Wow if that is your conclusion.
WOW! It is very obvious you did not read Hofstadter’s essay or you firmly did not understand it in the least as you contort yourself to redefine its conclusions. As you stated in another post, you just read the headline only and go from there.
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Quote from Frumious
Quote from Thread Killer
That’s pretty funny Frumious. What do you think the author is telling you? Does your critical reading and thinking conclude it is supportive of your position in here? Wow if that is your conclusion.
WOW! It is very obvious you did not read Hofstadter’s essay or you firmly did not understand it in the least as you contort yourself to redefine its conclusions. As you stated in another post, you just read the headline only and go from there.
Haha. I admit I responded after reading the headline your quotes. Particularly the bolded ones. I guess I made the mistake of thinking you quoted the best arguments for you case. Low and behold the actual complete read confirmed my more accurate conclusion.
Do you still believe being in a country with a tradition of conspiracy theories is evidence of an accelerating decline of its democracy? I guess you are confused about what is being discussed here.
Even he writes about the partisan echo chamber
You have yet to actually read what I am saying and understand. Your party is losing for it. Dergon, and Hillary and many others are recognizing it. Even Amanda Gorman. For whenever we come together, we will forever overcome.
And she doesnt mean just your tribe.-
Im going to ask you a difficult question Frumi. I know you hate me from past misunderstandings of what I have written. It took some nuance to understand and I admit is was a very poor way of interacting online. What is it that I have written in the last year that has you so worked up and determined to label me as Republican tribal?
Maybe take some time to read my posts? Ive spent more time knocking down the people you have lumped me in with. What, it bothers you that I keep pointing out your poor analytical skills? I admit to not suffering fools. Nothing tribal about that.
Never mind. I read your response to Cub. You are working through the same old arguments about why your side is better. With fervor. You havent even stopped to notice I am not in his tribe.-
Honestly
Because of my past experiences with you and a few others on here I read little of your posts
Especially the lengthy ones
I mean seriously after the Hydroxychloroquine sheet and the her immunity at 20% I pretty much pained those posters as too far gone to take seriously
I dont believe in wasting time
Perhaps as a New Years resolution I will try to either read more or comment less
Or both
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Fair enough chiro. It is clear you are not reading.
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I sat with your comment a bit chiro and find it wise.
We should all read more, think wisely and then comment less.
Like you I know how hard it is to refrain from knocking down a poorly reasoned argument. Ive been on the receiving end of one your best refutations chiro. If you read more you might even conclude I changed because of it. Wouldnt that be satisfying?
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Love your arguments.
You only read the headline & respond to it but later claim to have read the actual article/essay and insist your original argument still stands – accurately.
You have changed you insist but can’t say exactly where and how. But somehow we have to find and acknowledge you’ve changed – for the better – or else we prove we are part of that tribe you criticize and our arguments are only partisan. Yet Pontius, your hands are clean.
Our “party” is going to lose because…well you don’t really say why outside of broad statement you do not agree.
No, you haven’t changed, you’ve only tried to be more clever and cute.-
Quote from Frumious
Love your arguments.
You only read the headline & respond to it but later claim to have read the actual article/essay and insist your original argument still stands – accurately.
[b]Again you did not read! [/b]At least chiro admits it.
As I said, responded to everything you copied, not just the headline. Especially the bolded part because I hoped you would copy and bold the part that best made your case. That snippet was easy to use to tear apart your position that the U.S. democracy is in a accelerated decline. It got easier after reading the whole piece. I agree with everything he said. it just does not help make your case.
I think the problem here is that you think you are having an argument with someone else. Mine is not the “two sides” argument. It never has been and there is not one thing in my writing that suggests it is.
I’m honestly not sure why you keep coming to that conclusion Frumi. Read your article. Saying something over and over does convince people it is true. I guess that’s your problem.
What I write in this thread has to do with the paranoia that you and others show when they read an opinion piece regarding the “accelerating decline of democracy”. It is confirmation bias for you. I am sharing my experience in real life with people from every “tribe” with every preconceived notion about politics and how to get along with each other. I am here to tell you again the future is bright. Read Amanda’s words again. She is confident as well. -
Quote from Frumious
Our “party” is going to lose because…well you don’t really say why outside of broad statement you do not agree.
Why, because your arguments make people angry. Even Hillary is speaking out. She recognized the mistake of her “deplorables” comment, I hope. And please show me my “broad statement”. I do agree with much of what your party is striving for. I think your approach is rubbish and ruining your chances of getting what you want.
There is a way to improve this bitter partisan rivalry and it’s not trying to prove one side is “better”. Stop falling into cub’s trolling.
I did not say I have changed. I said one might interpret it that way if one reads what I am writing now. It won’t show change in me. It will show what I have always been. A non-partisan person that thinks critically and tries to find common ground among people of all ranges of diversity.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
I didn’t say people were smarter back then. I said they were more free thinking given the lack of constant indoctrination by the elites that control all levers of power. If you want to be on a side Frumi then fine, I give your side credit for the slow and methodical brain-washing of an entire generation of people when they were most vulnerable. Good work.
You provide no examples of the lack of “indoctrination” in the past. You provide no examples of how or who “elites” the “elites” are. The educated in general? Including educated physicians? How are you indoctrinated today?
Did it start with the leftist plan of water fluoridation? That generation? The 1950’s?
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Thats not really the issue
Its about priorities
Between career spouse and family -time becomes the most valuable thing
Reading lengthy internet posts is one of the first things to get crossed off my list
So like I said. I need to either read more or comment less
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You should read Mistborn and watch the Witcher.
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Quote from Chirorad84
Thats not really the issue
Its about priorities
Between career spouse and family -time becomes the most valuable thing
Reading lengthy internet posts is one of the first things to get crossed off my list
So like I said. I need to either read more or comment less
Ah, you are even wiser than I thought. It is amazing how hard it is to stop isn’t it? I know you gave yourself 20min a day in here before. I think it is smart if we both follow that rule. All of our lives would be better for it. We certainly aren’t making any positive changes in people’s lives with our hobby posting.-
Ok …. here’s one that should catch an eye… or an ear
[b]Anatomy of a Death Threat[/b][/h1]
An amazing [link=https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION/THREATS/mopanwmlkva/]Reuters visual analysis[/link] shows how Donald Trumps supporters have waged a campaign of intimidation against the state and local officials who administer U.S. elections.
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Yes. Works well in the which side is worse argument.
There is really no comparison there. I am glad there are many pointing this sheet out. Its how we protect our democracy.
Again, Im my mind the best thing we can do is support those that are working in the right direction and wage war against those that are not.
Unfortunately there are some that want to wage war on everyone they even associate with the other tribe.
Best to recognize who is who. Otherwise there is a danger of losing both the battle and the war. I may be wrong in my hopefulness just like Amanda. I can assure you it wont stop me from continuing my approach.
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You know what? My 20 minutes is done. I forgot the purpose here as explained to me before is not to change minds. Its to pontificate opinions.
At least its happening in here. As a relatively new participant, was there ever at one when politics stayed in the OT forum? The COVID thread is an embarrassment of opinons.
You make a great point though dergon. Where the media really diverges is not the news. Its the opinion pieces. I might suggest we avoid reading them at all. We are all well educated enough to form our own.
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Quote from Thread Killer
You know what? My 20 minutes is done. I forgot the purpose here as explained to me before is not to change minds. Its to pontificate opinions.
Which begs the question, your inability to follow your own complaints about others. Where oh where is your power of persuasion? All I read is your own hobby pontification opinion complaints about others. You are bringing what to persuade?
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Quote from Frumious
Quote from Thread Killer
You know what? My 20 minutes is done. I forgot the purpose here as explained to me before is not to change minds. Its to pontificate opinions.
Which begs the question, your inability to follow your own complaints about others. Where oh where is your power of persuasion? All I read is your own hobby pontification opinion complaints about others. You are bringing what to persuade?
Well you dont actually read words so you are not worth my time.
I had a new idea last night and will try it out later when I get a free moment. The challenge is to find a news story that is designed to persuade and spends some time breaking down where it failed. This is the core of what I see lacking. People post examples from the media, often opinion pieces, that they think solidify their position. If one reads them critically they all have some errors. It doesnt matter though. The confirmation bias is so strong the poster gets their dopamine hit and they are on their way.
To be most affective I would suggest trying to criticize a piece that supports youre own side. Since I dont have one Ill try to find something form the side Frumi has assigned me. It might be hard though because Im not sure what that is.-
I agree with Lincoln. it was worth going to war over then and it would be now.
Fortunately, the number of people who wont accept the results of 2020 are nowhere near enough to make that necessary. All I am arguing in this thread is that going from about the worst possible scenario in a setting of extreme civil rights violations to the majority of the country standing up to do the right thing is not an accelerating decline. Its an example of our democracy working.
Now, I have listened to someone on NPR who made some excellent points about what we need to do to keep 1/6 from happening again. There needs to be a more clear and legally binding path to vote certification. The idea that election officials could legally send electors of their own choosing to the EC is absurd in this era. This needs to be fixed. We need to know for sure how to decide who has won.-
And I trust the Democrats to do the right thing more than I do the Republicans which is why I implore dergon and Frumi to do wha they can to put up electable candidates so we wont have the the set up for disaster the next time a candidate tries what Trump did.
I mean Hillary Clinton is imploring the same thing. Why does this bother Frumi so much?-
1/6 was admittedly horrifying and difficult to explain to my friends overseas. However, I dont see it as more than the crazy right wing fringe. To lump all republicans in with what happened that day is frankly absurd. Just like you shouldnt lump all democrats in with the crazy fringe left antifa etc. mainstream news has become more and more a propaganda machine and echo chamber on both sides. Its all a consequence of the poison that is social media. Everything has to be shocking nowadays to get hits, likes, pageviews etc. when people get their news from timtok like its the word of god, you know the society is in a bad way.
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Oh ok
So it was no big deal just a few fringe crazies
Uhhhhhh no I dont think so it was an organized coo attempt with cooperation from
A lot of individuals with ties to our government including congressmen and senatorsSugar coating doesnt make it better
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Quote from chitownrads18
1/6 was admittedly horrifying and difficult to explain to my friends overseas. However, I dont see it as more than the crazy right wing fringe.
1st of all, I have to say, admit(?) I do not get ANY of my “news” from “timtok.” Or any social media for that matter.
Your overseas friends accepted your explanation of events as only a few over-excited tourists at the Capital on January 6? Were these “tourists” there to Stop The Steal of an illegitimate election?
How then to explain how Republican leaders aren’t condemning the violence on January 6? How then to explain how Republicans are loathe to, if they can at all, admit Biden won legitimately and that Trump lost? Name a few Republican leaders who say Biden won?
How to explain the rush by Republicans-controlled stated to change election laws that would allow them to install election officers who would overturn an election to install the loser?
What do your friends overseas think of those efforts? All the overseas friends I know think those are the actions of anti-democratic authoritarians to overthrow law and democracy to install an unelected government.
Ask Arnold Schwarzenegger and his friends what they think of over-enthusiastic tourists at the Capital. Or is he a RINO fit only to be dismissed as a Democratic propagandist?
Newsmax (NOT “timtok) seems to think a vast majority of Republicans think Biden actually lost the election.
[link=https://www.newsmax.com/politics/biden-trump-2020-election-legitimate/2021/12/30/id/1050502/]https://www.newsmax.com/p…2021/12/30/id/1050502/[/link]
Nearly 3 in 4 Republicans doubt that President Joe Biden won the 2020 election legitimately, according to a new poll from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.
A total of 71% of GOP respondents said Biden’s victory was illegitimate, the [link=https://polsci.umass.edu/toplines-and-crosstabs-december-2021-national-poll-presidential-election-jan-6th-insurrection-us]UMass[/link] poll found.
Among those Republican respondents, 25% said Biden’s triumph was “probably not legitimate,” and 46% said it was “definitely not legitimate,” according to the poll.
Only 6% of GOP respondents said that Biden won the election fairly, and another 15% said he “probably” won it fairly.
Overall, 58% of poll respondents 91% of Democrats, 54% of independents said Biden’s election was legitimate. More than one-fifth (22%), however, said that it was “definitely not legitimate.”
Former President Donald Trump and allies have maintained that voter fraud in several battleground states resulted in Biden winning the election.
“[b]Given the continued questioning of Biden’s victory by prominent Republican elected officials, conservative media personalities, and former President Trump, it is no surprise that 7 in 10 Republicans, conservatives, and Trump voters view the results of the 2020 election with skepticism, if not outright disbelief[/b],” Tatishe Nteta, an associate professor of political science at UMass Amherst and the poll’s director, said in a [link=https://www.umass.edu/news/article/one-year-later-new-umass-amherst-poll-finds-continued-national-political-division-over?_gl=1*twvbnj*_ga*ODI1Njg3NDI5LjE2NDA4OTI4MTg.*_ga_21RLS0L7EB*MTY0MDg5MjgxNy4xLjEuMTY0MDg5MzMzNC4w&_ga=2.227479640.435287956.1640892818-825687429.1640892818]release[/link].
Soooo, who won the election last November? -
From the AP, not exactly an alarmist Democratic propaganda front.
[link=https://bangordailynews.com/2021/12/30/national-politics/inside-republicans-slow-motion-insurrection-to-seize-electoral-power/]https://bangordailynews.c…seize-electoral-power/[/link]
In the weeks leading up to the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, a handful of Americans well-known politicians, obscure local bureaucrats stood up to block Donald Trumps unprecedented attempt to overturn a free and fair vote of the American people.
In the year since, Trump-aligned Republicans have worked to clear the path for next time.
In battleground states and beyond, Republicans are taking hold of the once-overlooked machinery of elections. While the effort is incomplete and uneven, outside experts on democracy and Democrats are sounding alarms, warning that the United States is witnessing a slow-motion insurrection with a better chance of success than Trumps failed power grab last year.
They point to a mounting list of evidence: Several candidates who deny Trumps loss are running for offices that could have a key role in the election of the next president in 2024. In Michigan, the Republican Party is restocking members of obscure local boards that could block approval of an election. In Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, the GOP-controlled legislatures are backing open-ended reviews of the 2020 election, modeled on a deeply flawed look-back in Arizona. The efforts are poised to fuel disinformation and anger about the 2020 results for years to come.
All this comes as the Republican Party has become more aligned behind Trump, who has made denial of the 2020 results a litmus test for his support. Trump has praised the Jan. 6 rioters and backed primaries aimed at purging lawmakers who have crossed him. Sixteen GOP governors have signed laws making it more difficult to vote. An Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research poll showed that two-thirds of Republicans do not believe Democrat Joe Biden was legitimately elected as president.
[b]Its not clear that the Republican Party is willing to accept defeat anymore, said Steven Levitsky, a Harvard political scientist and co-author of the book How Democracies Die. The party itself has become an anti-democratic force.[/b]
[b]This time, experts argue, is different: Never in the countrys modern history has a major party sought to turn the administration of elections into an explicitly partisan act.[/b]
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The fictional world that your minds create is just astounding.
Biden won the election with the ballots cast. No question about that.
Jan. 6 was a few hundred over-excited zealots that gained access to a place they shouldn’t have. It was most definitely not a coup. If it was, it was the dumbest, crappiest attempt ever. They had no weapons and how exactly is walking around the Capitol supposed to overthrow the government?
And what exactly is the “existential threat to democracy” now? Having to show you ID to vote? Yeah that’s a real tough one. It’s incredibly easy to vote everywhere and has gotten easier over the years not harder, so stop living in that fiction.
I understand you’re all trying to lay the groundwork for when the Dems lose in 2022 and 2024 and you can get your pre-impeachment jollies going, but it’s just sad. -
Fiction? You still don’t explain how even NewsMax is writing how the majority of Republicans believe the lie of Trump really winning 2020 election.
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Frumious proved my point. Youre not allowed to be centrist in this country anymore. The far left or far right will shout you down. The loudest voice wins right? Its the twitter effect. A few thousand people tweet/retweet it, so it must be how the whole world thinks eh? Sad that you have to resort to strawman attacks and asinine comments about a tiktok spelling typo. Im not a trump wingnut nor an antifa defund the police leftist wingnut.
Your mindset is what will lose the democrats the midterms and next presidential election. Your (and mainstream medias) all or nothing, all bad or all good approach to politics will alienate many centrist democrats and independents. It might surprise you that I voted democrat for president in the last 3 elections. But thats inconvenient right? Because then I wouldnt fit into the box you are trying to put me in. Its ok to have differences of opinion buddy. No need for strawman or thinly disguised adhominems related to my typo.
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Uh oh. Youve just poked the Frumi with the lie of the moderate. Lets see if hes learned anything.
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First, what ad hominem did I call you? I missed that and can’t seem to find it. Show me please. Seriously where? Your response seems very knee-jerk defensive without informing anyone of your argument.
As for shouting you down, really??? I have shut you down? Or shouted you down? Yet, here you are.
All I read is asking how your overseas friends accept your explanation that January 6 was only about kooks. That’s an ad hominem? tiktok misspell is it? Is tiktok anyone’s “news” source? I absolutely dispute your argument that January 6 was little to nothing but a bunch of crazies in body makeup & horns attacking Capital police with pepper spray and fire extinguishers. Is that the ad hominem you speak of?
I agree with Arnold Schwarzenegger that these people are Brownshirts. Supporters of these people and their actions are dangerous to American democracy. These people were hardly demonstrating FOR democracy.
Not being facetious but what is “centrist?” Seriously. I feel very centrist myself compared to Trumpers and AOC followers. Is that too inconvenient for you?
Perhaps you did vote for Obama then Hillary then Biden. How does that explain seeing January 6 as a nothing demonstration? Did you not see the videos?
At risk of repeating, I don’t Twit for 1 thing nor do I use social media at all, period.
As for pro-democracy Democrats and RINOs losing the next elections, what does that say about those voters willing to re-elect Trump? Or Greene? Or Hawley? Cawthorn? McCarthy? Gaetz? Boebert? We Democrats are going to lose to these people because they are Centrist while we are too radical? I don’t see your argument.
Explain.
PS, I also reject your argument of “both sides” being equally wrong for the same reasons.
No they are not.
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These type of answers scare me.
And how are Independents really any different from Republicans In so many surveys, their repsonses are virtually identical.
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/01/post-poll-january-6/]https://www.washingtonpos…1/post-poll-january-6/[/link]
[attachment=0] -
Quote from Frumious
These type of answers scare me.
And how are Independents really any different from Republicans In so many surveys, their repsonses are virtually identical.
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/01/post-poll-january-6/]https://www.washingtonpos…1/post-poll-january-6/[/link]
[attachment=0]
How would you have answered this question in November-December of 2015? Just curious. Because I remember at the time a large (not majority) percentage of Leftists answered a similar question in the affirmative. I tried to find it but its hard to find such things 5 years old. We all remember though a lot of Left-wing people justifying the BLM violence/riots though and that’s quite similar as it is a form of political violence.
It’s a bit of worrisome number, I agree, but it’s also a question I might find myself answering yes because it’s how the US was formed in the first place.
I suppose that my answer would be yes to the question if it was “rarely, almost never” instead of “sometimes” but a lot of polls and their answers are really reliant on the wording. As you well know, you can get vastly different outcomes just be wording questions slightly differently. -
Worth a full read
Five Rudys from the Abyss-
The Bulwark[link=https://www.thebulwark.com/five-rudys-from-the-abyss/]https://www.thebulwark.co…-rudys-from-the-abyss/[/link]
If Giuliani-like sycophants had replaced just five officials, Trumps coup would have succeeded.
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There are two reasonable ways to look at the 2020 presidential election.
The first is that despite a ferocious effort by Team Trump to steal a presidential election, the center held. Electoral votes were certified in accordance with the results of the popular vote in every state, the courts rejected a flood of bogus lawsuits seeking to overturn the election, and Joe Biden was inaugurated in a more or less peaceful transition. The less part of that equationJanuary 6was appalling but in the end amounted to nothing more than a disorganized, failed attempt by a bunch of crazies to prevent Congress from certifying the election. The crazies are being held accountable by the boatload in criminal prosecutions, and a congressional investigation will get to the bottom of what happened and pass whatever laws may be necessary to prevent it from happening again. A bit chaotic, sure. But were going to be just fine.
The second way of looking at 2020 is that the attempted coup came much closer to succeeding than many would admit and was just a dress rehearsal for 2024. Every way in which the coup failed is correctable by Trump and red state legislatures, who are engaged in a relentless national campaign to put the machinery in place to accomplish what they could not the last time around. The danger to our democracy is real. We should be very worried.
Put me squarely in the worried camp.
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One final observation chitownrad, if these polls are accurate or even close to accurate, you are hardly centrist for believing January 6 was a nothing-burger by some harmless idiots in costumes, you are in the minority. But you are “centrist” with the majority of Republicans.
[link=https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/majority-americans-jan-attack-threatened-democracy-poll/story]https://abcnews.go.com/Po…d-democracy-poll/story[/link]
This is not an ad hominem, this is called disagreement. -
You know what chitown? We should leave Frumi to his polls and his suffering. He believes bar graphs more than people. Its sad but that is the only conclusion I can draw from his responses. So far hes had several people, including Hillary Clinton, approach him with essentially the same recommendation and information. He has learned nothing. Im energized but practical. I will work with those he cant.
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Quote from Frumious
From the AP, not exactly an alarmist Democratic propaganda front.
[link=https://bangordailynews.com/2021/12/30/national-politics/inside-republicans-slow-motion-insurrection-to-seize-electoral-power/]https://bangordailynews.c…seize-electoral-power/[/link]
In the weeks leading up to the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, a handful of Americans well-known politicians, obscure local bureaucrats stood up to block Donald Trumps unprecedented attempt to overturn a free and fair vote of the American people.
In the year since, Trump-aligned Republicans have worked to clear the path for next time.
In battleground states and beyond, Republicans are taking hold of the once-overlooked machinery of elections. While the effort is incomplete and uneven, outside experts on democracy and Democrats are sounding alarms, warning that the United States is witnessing a slow-motion insurrection with a better chance of success than Trumps failed power grab last year.
They point to a mounting list of evidence: Several candidates who deny Trumps loss are running for offices that could have a key role in the election of the next president in 2024. In Michigan, the Republican Party is restocking members of obscure local boards that could block approval of an election. In Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, the GOP-controlled legislatures are backing open-ended reviews of the 2020 election, modeled on a deeply flawed look-back in Arizona. The efforts are poised to fuel disinformation and anger about the 2020 results for years to come.
All this comes as the Republican Party has become more aligned behind Trump, who has made denial of the 2020 results a litmus test for his support. Trump has praised the Jan. 6 rioters and backed primaries aimed at purging lawmakers who have crossed him. Sixteen GOP governors have signed laws making it more difficult to vote. An Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research poll showed that two-thirds of Republicans do not believe Democrat Joe Biden was legitimately elected as president.
[b]Its not clear that the Republican Party is willing to accept defeat anymore, said Steven Levitsky, a Harvard political scientist and co-author of the book How Democracies Die. The party itself has become an anti-democratic force.[/b]
[b]This time, experts argue, is different: Never in the countrys modern history has a major party sought to turn the administration of elections into an explicitly partisan act.[/b]
Thats an opinion piece that says nothing new but does hit on the key points I have read before. Just to show you I read it all and dont disagree with any of it Ill quote the last three paragraphs.
[b]Additionally, some Republicans argue that state legislatures can name their own electors regardless of what the vote tally says. [/b]
[b] But Democrats have had little success in laying out the stakes in these races. Its difficult for voters to believe the system could be vulnerable, said Daniel Squadron of The States Project, a Democratic group that tries to win state legislatures. [/b]
[b] The most motivated voters in America today are those who think the 2020 election was stolen, he said. Acknowledging this is afoot requires such a leap from any core American value system that any of us have lived through.[/b]
Heres where I differ with you and dergon. What does it mean and what should we do? It does not mean the U.S. democracy is in an accelerating decline. It means the majority of people did the right thing and voted. Another majority certified the election appropriately.
What next? Energize the moderates that have all of the control. I agree with the idea that right now the most motivated are the delusional. Its time we stop the hobby posting and get out and do something.
Or we can keep posting opinion pieces in a place nobody reads. Good luck with that Democrats.
Oh yeah, I said this before also. Congress needs to do something to ensure there is a simple process for how vote is certified so individual parties cannot try the end around that was attempted by Trump. I would be fine with doing away with the EC but we all know that is unlikely. However, we can fix this idea that a separate board can send its own slate of electors.
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Historian and author (expert on Lincoln) Michael Burlinghame in the [i]Boston Globe[/i] today:
[link=https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/01/01/opinion/refusal-abide-by-results-elections-threatens-stability-us-more-than-any-time-since-1860/]https://www.bostonglobe.c…n-any-time-since-1860/[/link][h1][b]Refusal to abide by the results of elections threatens the stability of the US more than at any time since 1860[/b][/h1] [h2]The Civil War was, in Abraham Lincolns view, above all a fight to vindicate democracy.[/h2]
The challenge facing the nation in the secession crisis of 1860-61 resembles one confronting us today: the failure (on both sides of the ideological divide) to accept the results of legitimate elections. Southerners refusal to acquiesce in Lincolns victory at the polls and his subsequent refusal to appease them, either by abandoning his partys antislavery principles or by accepting secession caused the Civil War. To allow the South to break up, the Union would, he thought, discredit and undermine the very concept of democracy.
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Thus the Civil War was, in Lincolns view, above all a fight to vindicate democracy. To Congress, he explained that the stakes involved were high, for this issue embraces more than the fate of these United States. Indeed, it affected the whole family of man, for the secession of the South forces us to ask: Is there, in all republics, this inherent, and fatal weakness? Must a government, of necessity, be too [i]strong[/i] for the liberties of its own people, or too [i]weak[/i] to maintain its own existence?Lincolns refusal to tolerate secession seems especially relevant at a time when the growing unwillingness to abide by the result of elections which in his day meant secession and today means [link=https://nypost.com/2020/09/07/dems-strategy-for-winning-the-white-house-threaten-riots-if-they-lose/]implicitly threatening to burn down cities[/link], or attacking the US Capitol, or undermining the legitimacy of a duly elected president by the use fraudulent evidence arguably threatens the stability of the Republic now more seriously than at any time since 1860.
[/QUOTE]
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lol just stop. It’s getting sad at this point. You’re better than this, dergon.
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Im just wondering when will Republicans stop calling this a stolen election & publicly admit Biden won, fair & square. And stop creating the ability to throw out the voters results in favor of the Republican.
I think thats your singular problem, cub.
Sad. Very sad that one party is trying to dismantle democracy & voters rights. -
Fiction? No one seems able to explain how even NewsMax is writing how the majority of Republicans believe the lie of Trump really winning 2020 election.
