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Report: Global Democracy Under Threat, US Democracy in “accelerating decline”
[h4][link=https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2018]Freedom in the World 2018[/link][/h4] [h2][b]Democracy in Crisis[/b][/h2]
[b]Key Findings:[/b]
[ul][*][b]Democracy faced its most serious crisis in decades[/b] in 2017 as its basic tenetsincluding guarantees of free and fair elections, the rights of minorities, freedom of the press, and the rule of lawcame under attack around the world.[*]Seventy-one countries suffered net declines in political rights and civil liberties, with only 35 registering gains. This marked the [b]12th consecutive year of decline in global freedom.[/b][*]The United States retreated from its traditional role as both a champion and an exemplar of democracy amid [b]an accelerating decline in American political rights and civil liberties.[/b][*]Over the period since the 12-year global slide began in 2006, 113 countries have seen a net decline, and only 62 have experienced a net improvement. [/ul] [/QUOTE][image]https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/FitW5_820px_Bar_Chart_Freedom_In_The_Balance-cropped.png[/image]
A very disturbing report with conclusions that, sadly, I have to agree with.
The Obama administration continued to defend democratic ideals in its foreign policy statements, but its actions often fell short, reflecting a reduced estimation of the United States ability to influence world events and of the American publics willingness to back such efforts.
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Even when he chose to acknowledge Americas treaty alliances with fellow democracies, { PresdientTrump} spoke of cultural or civilizational ties rather than shared recognition of universal rights; his trips abroad rarely featured any mention of the word democracy. Indeed, the American leader expressed feelings of admiration and even personal friendship for some of the worlds most loathsome strongmen and dictators.
This marks a sharp break from other U.S. presidents in the postwar period, who cooperated with certain authoritarian regimes for strategic reasons but never wavered from a commitment to democracy as the best form of government and the animating force behind American foreign policy. It also reflects an inabilityor unwillingnessby the United States to lead democracies in effectively confronting the growing threat from Russia and China, and from the other states that have come to emulate their authoritarian approach.
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673 Replies
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Democracy is overrated.
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Democracy is not what we practice here in the US, with our representative government. If everyone voted on everything, we would have utter pandemonium.
Freedom is what we desire, and it cannot be overrated.
I am curious as to what freedoms and liberties we no longer have. Unfortunately, Freedomintheworld.org and its parent, freedomhouse.org, do what all good Liberals/Leftists do…they miscast the truth to portray a dire situation that only exists in the minds of demented Liberals. When reading the rest of their [link=https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2018]references [/link]to the U.S., I had to be sure I wasn’t on the Daily Kos or the home page of the BLM fools.
Liberals need to learn to tell the truth, in other words, to stop telling frank LIES. But I guess they won’t as long as there are people out there who lap up the falsehoods as if they were the finest champagne.-
Like calling other countries sheetholes then denying it is telling the truth
Yes liberal snowflakes need to tell the truth because we have so much honesty coming from the other side
Basically most people are fng stupid
Thats the truth
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Quote from kpack123
Like calling other countries sheetholes then denying it is telling the truth
Yes liberal snowflakes need to tell the truth because we have so much honesty coming from the other side
Basically most people are fng stupid
Thats the truth
Read this piece and think about it….
[link=http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/01/what_i_learned_in_peace_corps_in_africa_trump_is_right.html]http://www.americanthinke…ca_trump_is_right.html[/link]
I don’t care if Trump used the term or didn’t. But there ARE places that are horrific, and cultures so very different from ours that simply carting the people to a new location does nothing more than harm everyone involved.-
Maybe but why say it in front of people then deny it
If you are going to boldly lie like that….. then what else will you lie about
Regardless of Party regardless of of personal flaws that most everyone has you expect some integrity in a leader
This guy is a real piece of trash
I think a lot of people are like me and getting tired of the daily shock TV reality show
We shall see how it plays out
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Are you this prissy at home? Do you shut off the TV if someone says “dam#” or “sh!t”? So Trump and several people in the room denied that he said sh1tholes. But you are p!$$ed either way. If he says he didn’t use the word, he’s lying. If he did say sh1th0les, well….HOW DARE HE? We all know we have to pretend that the US is the REAL sh1th0le because….TRUMP and WHITE PEOPLE! The other very troubled, destitute nations are paradise on earth whose inhabitants want to come here just to show us that we don’t deserve what we have. Or something like that.
Get your panties out of a wad. People use profanity. Sometimes appropriately. Like you’ve never said a single bad word in your life. I’ve been to nations in Africa on mission trips, and I would NEVER use that term in reference to the places I’ve visited. These are places clawing their way up from poverty, with truly brilliant and hard-working people trying to improve a bad situation. The true hell-holes are like the place described in my link above, where there is NO desire to help themselves. These [i]do [/i]exist, and to get upset about the terminology, rather than the situation, is childish.
There are indeed places that want things to be better and will allow us to work with them to make that happen. Be a part of [i]that[/i], and not one of the pearl-clutchers.-
Prissy? Maybe
Personally I think its more like….
At what point to we get tired of the stupid arse reality show games and do important stuff
I predict more and more Americans are becoming like me and tuning Trump out
He is just a babbling blowhard
Eventually these carnival acts close
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Go look at your portfolio and your 401K. Look at the unemployment figures, particularly for African Americans. Look at the tax you’ll pay in 2018 as compared to 2017.
I think Trump has indeed done a lot of “important stuff”. Sadly, you have let the media lead you around by the nose, and lie to you continuously, Goebbels-style, about Trump. You are far more intelligent than to believe it, at least[i] I[/i] think you are…-
The market has done well no doubt
But can you be honest and give Trumps predecessor a lot of credit for guiding us through a global collapse and essentially handing him a booming economy
Lets be fair and honest here
2009 was a near global economic collapse
The other guy did pretty darn well
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Quote from DoctorDalai
[b]Democracy is not what we practice here in the US[/b],
This is true. My statement is more general – the idea that a 2.0 GPA Gender Studies major at Indoctrination University has the same say as a 45-y.o. married ophthalmologist with three children WRT how society ought to be run… that, to me, is ludicrous.
Someone made a point on some other site a few weeks ago (attributed, I think, to some comedian): the next time you’re in line at the grocery store, look around you. These are the people who could be on a jury determining your fate should you ever be charged with a crime. To me, the determination of how a society ought to be run is, in the long-term, approximately equally weighty.
Quote from DoctorDalai
with our representative government. If everyone voted on everything, we would have utter pandemonium.
Freedom is what we desire, and it cannot be overrated.
I am curious as to what freedoms and liberties we no longer have. Unfortunately, Freedomintheworld.org and its parent, freedomhouse.org, do what all good Liberals/Leftists do…they miscast the truth to portray a dire situation that only exists in the minds of demented Liberals. When reading the rest of their [link=https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2018]references [/link]to the U.S., I had to be sure I wasn’t on the Daily Kos or the home page of the BLM fools.
Liberals need to learn to tell the truth, in other words, to stop telling frank LIES. But I guess they won’t as long as there are people out there who lap up the falsehoods as if they were the finest champagne.
I will grant the article in the OP one thing – the rule of law has totally degenerated. Hence, the “DREAMer” debate. -
Quote from DoctorDalai
Democracy is not what we practice here in the US, with our representative government.
We have a republic, if we can keep it, a form of democratic government,. A republic is a nation of laws.
I am not surprised Jan thinks democracy is overrated.
A [b]republic[/b] ([link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language]Latin[/link]: [i][link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_publica]res publica[/link][/i]) is a [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_of_government]form of government[/link] in which the country is considered a “public matter”, not the [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_privata]private concern or property[/link] of the rulers. The primary positions of power within a republic are not inherited, but are attained through elections expressing the [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed]consent of the governed[/link]. Such leadership positions are therefore expected to fairly represent the citizen body. It is a form of government under which the head of state is not a [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch]monarch[/link].[link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic#cite_note-1][1][/link][/sup][link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic#cite_note-M-W-2][2][/link][/sup][link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic#cite_note-3][3][/link][/sup] In American English, the definition of a republic can also refer specifically to a government in which elected individuals represent the citizen body, known elsewhere as a [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy]representative democracy[/link] (a [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic]democratic republic[/link])[link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic#cite_note-4][4][/link][/sup] and exercise power according to the [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law]rule of law[/link] (a [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionalism]constitutional[/link] republic).
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For the purposes of the methodolgy in this report “democracy” is a broad term, not limited to “direct democracy”.
A country or territory is awarded 0 to 4 points for each of 10 political rights indicators and 15 civil liberties indicators, which take the form of questions; a score of 0 represents the smallest degree of freedom and 4 the greatest degree of freedom. The political rights questions are grouped into three subcategories: Electoral Process (3 questions), Political Pluralism and Participation (4), and Functioning of Government (3). The civil liberties questions are grouped into four subcategories: Freedom of Expression and Belief (4 questions), Associational and Organizational Rights (3), Rule of Law (4), and Personal Autonomy and Individual Rights (4). The political rights section also contains an additional discretionary question. For the discretionary question, a score of 1 to 4 may be subtracted, as applicable (the worse the situation, the more points may be subtracted). The highest overall score that can be awarded for political rights is 40 (or a score of 4 for each of the 10 questions). The highest overall score that can be awarded for civil liberties is 60 (or a score of 4 for each of the 15 questions). The scores from the previous edition are used as a benchmark for the current year under review. A score is typically changed only if there has been a real-world development during the year that warrants a decline or improvement (e.g., a crackdown on the media, the countrys first free and fair elections), though gradual changes in conditionsin the absence of a signal eventare occasionally registered in the scores.
[i]Freedom in the World[/i] assigns the designation electoral democracy to countries that have met certain minimum standards for political rights and civil liberties; territories are not included in the list of electoral democracies. According to the methodology, an electoral democracy designation requires a score of 7 or better in the Electoral Process subcategory, an overall political rights score of 20 or better, [i]and[/i] an overall civil liberties score of 30 or better. (The civil liberties threshold was added as part of the 201617 methodology review.) Freedom Houses electoral democracy designation should not be equated with liberal democracy, a term that implies a more robust observance of democratic ideals and a wider array of civil liberties. In [i]Freedom in the World[/i], most Free countries could be considered liberal democracies, while some Partly Free countries might qualify as electoral, but not liberal, democracies.-
I will say that Trump has not screwed up the economy
To not give Obama credit for 8 yrs especially where we came from is just pure blind ignorance
But its disingenuous to give him anything else at this point
He was handed a Ferrari by his predecessor
He has not done anything to screw it up and the tax package has added to the rise in markets dalai
At least for. Now.
We will see how it plays out
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Maybe a reason the economy has continued to grow under Trump is that Republicans stopped opposing everything which brought some relief to voters and businesses. Plus promises of increased spending on infrastructure & other things even though nothing has appeared on the horizon. Nothing like reduced anxiety about suppressing the economy.
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The point is
It was growing and getting stronger
He was handed a Ferrari
Now yes the talk of Tax cuts and infrastructure definitely poured some gas on it
I always try to always be objective on economic matters
I think if you try to stay objective you have to conclude that Obama did pretty darn well and so far Trump has done well too
That being said its only one year
His volatility is not necessarily good for any economy long term in my opinion
But we will see
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Wrong.
Trump has started the dismantling of the onerous tangle of regulations imposed on business, among other anti-business actions taken by the Milquetoast Marxist. THAT is probably the major factor in the economy’s acceleration. “Continued to grow” implies that it was growing before…sure..at a snail’s pace.
You gentlemen need to understand that the Former Occupant HATED business, HATED Capitalism, and probably sincerely thought turning this nation into a banana republic was a good thing.-
Quote from DoctorDalai
Wrong.
Trump has started the dismantling of the onerous tangle of regulations imposed on business, among other anti-business actions taken by the Milquetoast Marxist. THAT is probably the major factor in the economy’s acceleration. “Continued to grow” implies that it was growing before…sure..at a snail’s pace.
You gentlemen need to understand that the Former Occupant HATED business, HATED Capitalism, and probably sincerely thought turning this nation into a banana republic was a good thing.
Yet business were raking in money under Obama. Record corporate profits. They’re still making money regardless of Donald.
Also which regulations were cut that you feel have helped business? I’d be curious to see examples. I hear a lot about it but never really see anything other than him posing in front of fake file folders.-
The market went up 150% under Obama
Dalai is an example of cutting off his nose to spite his face
Not worth arguing
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I did read they’re considering relaxing rules on pay day lenders again. Because usury is such a great business I guess.
The main thing I found is from WaPo and a lot of this seems like he’s cancelled rules that make sense. I know that the casual Trumper will say fake news, however, it looks like verifiable info
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/08/24/what-trump-has-undone/?utm_term=.780504855849]https://www.washingtonpos…utm_term=.780504855849[/link]
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It’s not a ‘decline’ just because someone wins that you dont approve of.
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Quote from fw
It’s not a ‘decline’ just because someone wins that you dont approve of.
Are you in another discussion because that statement is totally irrelevant to this topic. Oh, you mean you support Trump & some of us don’t. Ergo…
Non sequitur argument of yours. Let’s look at Jan’s statement that he does not support democracy & yet he strongly supports Trump. You are an authoritarian which makes you at a minimum suspicious of democracy & you support Trump. Same for Dalai who supports Trump & believes in multiple conspiracies controlling government.
So where exactly is the relevance in your statement? -
Quote from Frumious
So where exactly is the relevance in your statement?
There are simply no facts in the originally quoted article that support the allegation that democracy and freedom are in decline in the US. The prior administration may have used language in support of ‘democracy’ and ‘freedom’ yet they didn’t take any action to support it. The new administration simply doesn’t use the fluffy language but in terms of action there is no difference whatsoever. The entire article is just more butthurt from the left trying to create a narrative that is not supported by the facts. -
It might be alarmist but in the 1930’s Fascism also appealed to many over democracy and the question is whether it’s deja vu all over again. Authoritarianism is appealing because it require little thinking, just follow the Leader who has all the answers.
“ONLY I…!” -
Quote from fw
Quote from Frumious
So where exactly is the relevance in your statement?
There are simply no facts in the originally quoted article that support the allegation that democracy and freedom are in decline in the US. The prior administration may have used language in support of ‘democracy’ and ‘freedom’ yet they didn’t take any action to support it. The new administration simply doesn’t use the fluffy language but in terms of action there is no difference whatsoever. The entire article is just more butthurt from the left trying to create a narrative that is not supported by the facts.
I think the original premise from during was under attack in the world not specifically the US. However, there are facts I think support that your freedoms are under attack. In Seattle cops are arguing they can search your garbage without warrant, you’re tracked all the time by the government without warrant, civil forfeiture is back. Those are the opposite of freedoms. 20 years ago would you think the cops would be tracking your license plate? probably sounded pretty far fetched.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
I think the original premise from during was under attack in the world not specifically the US. However, there are facts I think support that your freedoms are under attack. In Seattle cops are arguing they can search your garbage without warrant,[./quote]
They can. They always had that right. The moment you put it to the curb, you have given any expectation of privacy when it comes to your garbage.
you’re tracked all the time by the government without warrant, civil forfeiture is back. Those are the opposite of freedoms. 20 years ago would you think the cops would be tracking your license plate? probably sounded pretty far fetched.
Yes, cops did that 20 years ago. And 40 years ago, and 50 years ago. It was called the ‘hotsheet’ and was taped to the glove comparment of every patrol car. One of the jobs the rookie had was to memorize the sheet and keep his eyes open. License plate readers are simply an electronic version of the ‘hotsheet’. As long as the police reads information that is available to anyone standing by the side of the road, there is no special protection attached to it. Now if they start to create movement profile based on license plate reader output etc., we are getting into a slightly different arena, but just running license plates against lists of stolen cars and cars linked to a crime is no different from how it has been done with pencil and paper. -
Quote from kpack123
The market went up 150% under Obama
Dalai is an example of cutting off his nose to spite his face
Not worth arguing
More than that. Without checking but I think the DOW went down to 7,000 for the Recession & more than doubled back up to 20,000 by the time Obama’s terms finished, and all in his Recession recovery. Obama was handed a dead fish for his term while Trump was handed the Ferrari as far as the economy went.
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Total gain was close to 150% giver take a few
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Quote from Frumious
I am not surprised Jan thinks democracy is overrated.
You shouldn’t be. It’s people like you who fuel my skepticism thereof.
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[i]Do[/i] be fair and honest. The recovery from the 2008 crash was started by W.
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I don’t know that’d I’d say recovery but Paulson and Bernanke staved off a complete banking Armageddon. He also gave us medicare D, tax cuts that benefited the rich, most of the shadow banking happened under his terms, unfunded/poorly planned wars.
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I disagree, but we stray. You guys simply cannot deny that Trump has been good for the economy. Period.
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Quote from DoctorDalai
[i]Do[/i] be fair and honest. The recovery from the 2008 crash was started by W.
Yes, be fair, it is the Conservatives who opposed Bush’s TARP and the Detroit bailout and other things like a stimulus in Jan 2008 to avert a recession. It didn’t work. Obama supported them all and passed a stimulus himself in 2009. But it isn’t Democrats who forget Bush started TARP and the Detroit bailout, it is the Republicans & right-wing media who constantly rail against Obama, as if Bush never existed.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/08/10/was-tarp-passed-under-bush-or-obama/In numerous polls, the public has voiced their displeasure at the much maligned bank bailout, but most dont know which president signed the controversial act into law. Only a third of Americans (34%) correctly say the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) was enacted by the Bush administration. Nearly half (47%) incorrectly believe TARP was passed under President Obama. Another 19% admit they do not know which president signed the bank bailout into law.
[link=https://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/bush-signs-tarp-legislation-oct-3-2008-097742]https://www.politico.com/…tion-oct-3-2008-097742[/link]On Sept. 30, 2013, as the deadline for keeping the government open approached, Rep. Nancy Pelosi, (D-Calif.) reminded reporters that, as the speaker in 2008, she had tried to round up votes for TARP, even though she knew Democratic supporters were likely to pay a political penalty.
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Quote from kpack123
The point is
It was growing and getting stronger
He was handed a Ferrari
Now yes the talk of Tax cuts and infrastructure definitely poured some gas on it
I always try to always be objective on economic matters
I think if you try to stay objective you have to conclude that Obama did pretty darn well and so far Trump has done well too
That being said its only one year
His volatility is not necessarily good for any economy long term in my opinion
But we will see
Trump was handed a Ferrari with 3 flat tires and an empty crankcase. But I’m proud of you for accepting the fact that Trump has done well. But it’s sad that you think Obama did too, when he really didn’t. -
Quote from Frumious
Quote from fw
It’s not a ‘decline’ just because someone wins that you dont approve of.
Are you in another discussion because that statement is totally irrelevant to this topic. Oh, you mean you support Trump & some of us don’t. Ergo…
Non sequitur argument of yours. Let’s look at Jan’s statement that he does not support democracy & yet he strongly supports Trump. You are an authoritarian which makes you at a minimum suspicious of democracy & you support Trump. [u][i][b]Same for Dalai who supports Trump & believes in multiple conspiracies controlling government. [/b][/i][/u]
So where exactly is the relevance in your statement?
Says the fellow who [i]absolutely, positively[/i] believes the [u][b]FAKE [/b][/u]Russian narrative.-
Dalai is turning into a bigger Hack for trump than Aldadoc was for GW Bush
Its amusing to watch these guys compromise their convictions and beliefs in order to twist their narrative
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At least I HAVE convictions and beliefs beyond Fundamentally Transforming this nation into a Socialist banana republic.
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Convictions are not a bad thing
But when you twist things to meet your narrative and overlook obviously atrocious behavior to justify perceived outcomes……
Then you lose your soul and your original convictions
Sometimes dalai its easier for other people to see things pertaining to you
I learned that lesson a while back
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Quote from DoctorDalai
At least I HAVE convictions and beliefs beyond Fundamentally Transforming this nation into a Socialist banana republic.
There’s some irony in your statement for me. We already are a banana republic in terms of being ruled by a plutocracy. Other than that we export way more than just bananas so I guess there’s hope for us after all. Caring about social issues doesn’t make you a socialist. There’s nothing wrong with caring about people less fortunate than yourself and I’m not even talking about taking all Dalai’s money.
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Don’t go there with me. You know what I’ve done in the realm of charity. The difference is that I am content to let others keep their money, while the Left won’t be happy until everyone but those in power are brought down to an equal but much lower level. I guess we’re back to FAIRNESS, aren’t we?
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Sometimes its easier for others to see things about you
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Quote from DoctorDalai
Don’t go there with me. You know what I’ve done in the realm of charity. The difference is that I am content to let others keep their money, while the Left won’t be happy until everyone but those in power are brought down to an equal but much lower level. I guess we’re back to FAIRNESS, aren’t we?
I didn’t say you didn’t do anything for charity but you also keep saying we’re going down this road of socialist banana republic. You’re using the term socialist. Taking everyone’s resources including mine, yours and putting it toward the group right? I think something has to change because there is inequality to the extreme. That might be government mandating living wages. I don’t know it’s a complex issue. It’s hard to argue against people being able to afford to live.
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Progressive tax policy socialism
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Quote from dergon
Progressive tax policy socialism
What else is it then ? You take from those who produce and give to those who dont. A head-tax is the only fair form of taxation. As that is difficult to implement, the next somewhat fair concept is a flat tax.-
Produce what? I remember reading that Jamie Dimon got $20.5 million in stock awards on top of salary at Chase. Say a bank manager makes $100k. Did Dimon do 200 times the work? Plus those stocks when sold only get taxed at 15% right? I do remember when his bank was party to almost collapsing the financial system.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Produce what? I remember reading that Jamie Dimon got $20.5 million in stock awards on top of salary at Chase. Say a bank manager makes $100k. Did Dimon do 200 times the work? Plus those stocks when sold only get taxed at 15% right? I do remember when his bank was party to almost collapsing the financial system.
The board obviously thinks that the guy willing do it for 10mil wouldn’t be able to do the job. In October 2017, the company under his leadership reported a $26500 million profit for the preceeding 12 months. As both a customer and shareholder I think whatever we pay him is money well spent.
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And was that a direct results of Jamie Dimon’s leadership or the fact that banks are allowed to make money hand over fist. They get to borrow cheap and the markets are at all time highs.
I own a little JPM myself so I see a lot of alerts. Unfortunately a lot of those alerts read like JPM fined $X million for failure to protect securities, not hire people with criminal records into investment positions etc… That’s not really leadership. -
Well, then vote for one of the many ‘avtivists’ who run for the board so they can tell the CEO how to do a better job.
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Quote from fw
Well, then vote for one of the many ‘avtivists’ who run for the board so they can tell the CEO how to do a better job.
Still doesn’t answer what specifically has he produced that’s worth 200x more than someone else.
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[link=https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rising-risk-civil-war-following-footsteps-history-ray-dalio/]https://www.linkedin.com/…eps-history-ray-dalio/[/link]
[h1]The Rising Risk of Civil War: Following in the Footsteps of History[/h1]
Suffice it to say that we are seeing most of these things happening in degrees that weve never seen in our lifetimes before but have happened many times before that prior to civil wars. Politically, in the 2022 elections we will see losses by moderates and gains by extremists/populists as each of the parties will have fights between the moderates and the extremists that the extremist-populists will win because each side want fighters not compromisers and moderates will also choose not to run. [b]Hopefully, but not certainly, we will get through this election with the election rules prevailing without a fight over them. That will set the stage for two more years of fighting that will likely lead to either irreconcilable differences and lack of progress or worse. During this time many decisions will have to be made. For example, the Supreme Court will make decisions on contentious issues that people are willing to fight over. There is a big risk that each side will view the decisions as unfairly made by the other side and not accept them, which will lead to tests of power[/b]. As time passes the money and credit that the central government and central bank made abundantly available will dissipate, making tensions worse. Challenges from foreign rivals might also pick up, bringing the US into the 2024 elections facing that set of circumstances.[b] That election will most likely be a battle between the populists of the right and the populists of the left in which neither side will accept losing. Such a sequence of events will be consistent with the typical path that leads to civil war. The main thing we need to do is know what that typical path looks like and see if events are or arent tracking it.[/b]
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Crossing from Stage 5 (when there are very bad financial conditions and intense internal and external conflict exist) to Stage 6 (when there is civil war) occurs when the system for resolving disagreements goes from working to not working.
History shows that the biggest risk to democracies is that they produce such fragmented and antagonistic decision making that they are ineffective and disorderly which leads to bad results and revolutions led by populist autocrats who represent large segments of the population who want to have a strong, capable leader get control of the chaos and make the country work well for them.[/QUOTE]
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Quote from DoctorDalai
Says the fellow who [i]absolutely, positively[/i] believes the [u][b]FAKE [/b][/u]Russian narrative.
Which is exactly what?
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I think the inequality plays right into the declining freedom. In earlier decades a single income could buy you a car, put the kids in college, pay off a house. You don’t have the financial freedom anymore.
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Looks like Putin is arresting people for protesting Putin. Including his political rival Nevalny.
[link=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/russian-police-raid-alexi-navalnys-office-on-day-of-anti-putin-rallies]https://www.theguardian.c…-of-anti-putin-rallies[/link]
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Putin race being called in Russia. He won over 70% of the vote again. Scrolled through the twitterverse and there’s some great videos of people stuffing the ballot boxes. I king of wonder what the succession plan is for him.
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well–if we look at the history of tyrants, creeps and crooks–does not end well–even though he has a Rasputin grip on Trump–he should recall how Rasputin went down( did the british have a hand in it)
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Putin race being called in Russia. He won over 70% of the vote again. Scrolled through the twitterverse and there’s some great videos of people stuffing the ballot boxes. I king of wonder what the succession plan is for him.
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[b]End Our National Crisis[/b][/h1]
The [link=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/10/16/opinion/donald-trump-worst-president.html]New York Times editorial board[/link] pulls no punches in making its case: Donald Trumps re-election campaign poses the greatest threat to American democracy since World War II.
Mr. Trumps ruinous tenure already has gravely damaged the United States at home and around the world. He has abused the power of his office and denied the legitimacy of his political opponents, shattering the norms that have bound the nation together for generations. He has subsumed the public interest to the profitability of his business and political interests. He has shown a breathtaking disregard for the lives and liberties of Americans. He is a man unworthy of the office he holds.-
Quote from dergon
[b]End Our National Crisis[/b]
The [link=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/10/16/opinion/donald-trump-worst-president.html]New York Times editorial board[/link] pulls no punches in making its case: Donald Trumps re-election campaign poses the greatest threat to American democracy since World War II.Mr. Trumps ruinous tenure already has gravely damaged the United States at home and around the world. He has abused the power of his office and denied the legitimacy of his political opponents, shattering the norms that have bound the nation together for generations. He has subsumed the public interest to the profitability of his business and political interests. He has shown a breathtaking disregard for the lives and liberties of Americans. He is a man unworthy of the office he holds.
Sour grapes. They did their level best to get Hillary into the job and are still sour that things didn’t work out.-
are you talking about the same NYT that smattered with HRC email stuff leading up to the election.
They did about as much to help HRC as Jim Comey did by coming out with the email stuff that went to nowheresville 2 weeks before the election.-
These constant hyperbolic statements about everything are really not helpful. When everything is the “greatest threat to democracy” and an “existential crisis” then nothing is.
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Yes, as if the Times had coddled Hillary with their daily front page reports on the emails. It was pile-on time for all the so-called liberal-media right up to the emails found on Huma Abedin’s laptop right up to 2 days before election day, 2016, when the FBI said, “Ah, never mind.” By then you’d have thought/”known” that Hillary was directly feeding Vlad with Top Secret US intelligence via emails.
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If it matters, I think most people (myself included) thought it was shady and technically illegal but that she only did it due to ease/laziness and not some sort of malice/spying/hurting America/etc.
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And yet Trump’s & family’s use of personal emails and unsecure phones are absolutely OK?
Where and why the difference in accountability?-
No, that’s not okay either. It’s not okay for anyone to do it.
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[link=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/26/republican-party-autocratic-hungary-turkey-study-trump]https://www.theguardian.c…ary-turkey-study-trump[/link]
Republicans closely resemble autocratic parties in Hungary and Turkey[b]Swedish university finds dramatic shift in GOP under Trump, shunning democratic norms and encouraging violence[/b]
The Republican party has become dramatically more illiberal in the past two decades and now more closely resembles ruling parties in autocratic societies than its former centre-right equivalents in Europe, according to a [link=https://www.v-dem.net/en/data/data/v-party-dataset/]new international study[/link].
In a significant shift since 2000, the GOP has taken to demonising and encouraging violence against its opponents, adopting attitudes and tactics comparable to ruling nationalist parties in Hungary, India, Poland and Turkey.
The shift has both led to and been driven by the rise of [link=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/donaldtrump]Donald Trump[/link].
The study, published on Monday, shows the party has followed a similar trajectory to Fidesz, which under Viktor Orbán has evolved from a liberal youth movement into an authoritarian party that has made Hungary the first non-democracy in the European Union.
Indias Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has been transformed in similar ways under Narendra Modi, as has the Justice and Development party (AKP) in Turkey under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and the Law and Justice party in Poland. Trump and his administration have sought to cultivate close ties to the leadership of those countries.
The Republican party has remained relatively committed to pluralism, but it has gone a long way towards abandoning other democratic norms, becoming much more prone to disrespecting opponents and encouraging violence. -
it’s just the projection and hypocrisy of the whole Trump apparatus. Like when they talk about Hunter’s drug problems. Hunter doesn’t tweet himself out while he’s high a kite.
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I think it’s more that the media cares and calls out the Trumps but not the Dems/Bidens. What they all do is wrong and they should all be called out equally.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
I think it’s more that the media cares and calls out the Trumps but not the Dems/Bidens. What they all do is wrong and they should all be called out equally.
there’s an unequal amount of lies coming from one side. Biden’s for sure not perfect but there’s no where near the TRumpiness.
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The problem with the “uneven” reporting is that the Hunter story is pretty slim to nonexistent, as WSJ “news” section reported to Donnie’s disappointment while the WSJ’s “Opinion” page was blasting the imaginative story of Hunter’s and Joe’s guilt of corruption, totally missing the irony of imagining the Bidens’ corruption while totally ignoring the Trumps’ corruption that is slapping them in the face.
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Yes, it was in accelerating decline due to the Joe Bidens of the world.
Now we are restoring the republic. First step is the decisive Trump win.
Then your traitorous leftists will go to jail. Where they belong.-
[link=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/trump-proved-authoritarians-can-get-elected-america/617023/?fbclid=IwAR3cPnkBW9Ft_eZwxim1NgzVc5rf_ikMv7hFv-_IbK3TkhPD2ixFHZKYSQ0]https://www.theatlantic.c…-_IbK3TkhPD2ixFHZKYSQ0[/link]
[b]Americas Next Authoritarian Will Be Much More Competent[/b]
Trump was ineffective and easily beaten. A future strongman wont be.
The situation is a perfect setup, in other words, for a talented politician to run on Trumpism in 2024. A person without the eager Twitter fingers and greedy hotel chains, someone with a penchant for governing rather than golf. An individual who does not irritate everyone who doesnt already like him, and someone whose wife looks at him adoringly instead of slapping his hand away too many times in public. Someone who isnt on tape boasting about assaulting women, and who says the right things about military veterans. Someone who can send appropriate condolences about senators who die, instead of angering their states voters, as Trump did, perhaps to his detriment, in Arizona. A norm-subverting strongman who can create a durable majority and keep his coalition together to win more elections.
Make no mistake: The attempt to harness Trumpismwithout Trump, but with calculated, refined, and smarter political talentis coming. And it wont be easy to make the next Trumpist a one-term president. He will not be so clumsy or vulnerable. He will get into office less by luck than by skill.
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At the moment, the Democratic Party risks celebrating Trumps loss and moving onan acute danger, especially because many of its constituencies, the ones that drove Trumps loss, are understandably tired. A political nap for a few years probably looks appealing to many who opposed Trump, but the real message of this election is not that Trump lost and Democrats triumphed. Its that a weak and untalented politician lost, while the rest of his party has completely entrenched its power over every other branch of government: the perfect setup for a talented right-wing populist to sweep into office in 2024. And make no mistake: Theyre all thinking about it.
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[link=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/why-obama-fears-for-our-democracy/617087/]https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/why-obama-fears-for-our-democracy/617087/[/link]
[h1]Why Obama Fears for Our Democracy[/h1] [b]In an exclusive interview, the former president identifies the greatest threats to the American experiment, explains why hes still hopeful, and opens up about his new book.[/b]America as an experiment is genuinely important to the world not because of the accidents of history that made us the most powerful nation on Earth, but because America is the first real experiment in building a large, multiethnic, multicultural democracy. And we dont know yet if that can hold. There havent been enough of them around for long enough to say for certain that its going to work, he said.
Two issues that run deeper for Obama than Trumps personal deficiencies concern the changes he sees in the Republican Party and the broader conservative movement. I did not believe how easily the Republican establishment, people who had been in Washington for a long time and had professed a belief in certain institutional values and norms, would just cave to Trumpian populism, he said.
He traces the populist shift inside the Republican Party to the election that made him president. It was Sarah Palin, John McCains 2008 running mate, he said, who helped unleash the populist wave: The power of Palins rallies compared with McCains ralliesjust contrast the excitement you would see in the Republican base. I think this hinted at the degree to which appeals around identity politics, around nativism, conspiracies, were gaining traction.
If we do not have the capacity to distinguish whats true from whats false, then by definition the marketplace of ideas doesnt work. And by definition our democracy doesnt work. We are entering into an epistemological crisis.
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being reported that Trump officials have said something along the lines of “hey, come pick your spots to drill the Artic Wild life refuge” . That place should be thoroughly off limits. I hope Biden puts the axe to this ASAP.
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Yeah, gotta get rid of those hateful “regulatory state” regulations. All that land wastefully left to be undeveloped and unpolluted.
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If anything, the recent election shows that the democracy is alive an healthy. A mistake was made in the choice of president and the mistake is being rectified. I just hope that for entertainment value, it includes a scene of secret service agents escorting the old president to the white house gate come Jan 20th.
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Yes but…
I have doubts about the health of our democracy when record-breaking number of people turned out to support that mistake. That is 71 million people believing a mistake was the better option to keep supporting.
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Quote from fw
If anything, the recent election shows that the democracy is alive an healthy. A mistake was made in the choice of president and the mistake is being rectified. I just hope that for entertainment value, it includes a scene of secret service agents escorting the old president to the white house gate come Jan 20th.
I would say that rather than being “healthy” that our democracy has instead “survived”
It got sick. It looks like we’re getting ready to get discharged from the hospital… but that doesn’t mean we’re fully recovered. … and we are nowhere near ready to run a marathon.
The guardrails of the constitution look to have held this time. But we now see that rather than being welded together with steel they are just duct-taped with flimsy “norms” and “conventions”. As noted above, the next more competent anti-democratic authoritarian might be able to blow them much more easily if we don’t do some repairs over the next few years.-
The Founders were naïve and compromised in their outlook of the future of the nation.
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Quote from dergon
Quote from fw
If anything, the recent election shows that the democracy is alive an healthy. A mistake was made in the choice of president and the mistake is being rectified. I just hope that for entertainment value, it includes a scene of secret service agents escorting the old president to the white house gate come Jan 20th.
I would say that rather than being “healthy” that our democracy has instead “survived”
This editorial reflects a lot of my feelings about TRump and the elections of 2016 and 2020. I am very happy with the outcome, like I said, Biden’s winning felt like the end of a war. But optimistic? Not yet.
The war still rages.
[link=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/opinion/trump-biden-nation-divided.html]https://www.nytimes.com/2…en-nation-divided.html[/link]
I had no faith, but I held out hope. The ubiquity of the anti-Trump ads created by [link=https://lincolnproject.us/]The Lincoln Project[/link], a group of Republican operatives endorsing Joe Biden, gave me hope. A change of heart in so many of my conservative friends disgusted by Mr. Trumps greed and deception and boorish behavior, disgusted by his inexplicable subservience to foreign despots, his encouragement of outrageous conspiracy theories, his loyalty to his own interests and no one elses gave me hope. Above all, the massive registration and get-out-the-vote effort in Black communities across the country gave me hope. Change was in the air I could feel it. An uprising was upon us. A great repudiation was at hand.
But it wasnt the way I felt four years ago. This time I felt far, far worse.
People have had four years now to find out just how truly terrible Mr. Trump is. How indifferent he is to the norms of civil discourse and to the responsibilities of democracy itself. How transparently racist he is, how divisive, how selfish. We know hes a chronic liar who, when caught out, simply doubles down on the lie. We know that he is using the levers of government to enrich himself. We know he delights in and urges on the most violent impulses of his most dangerous followers. We know he has [link=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/08/world/covid19-coronavirus-live-updates?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage]let 237,000 Americans die on his watch[/link] and still has no plan for saving the rest of us.
The numbers as of Sunday revealed that [link=https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-president.html]more than 71 million people[/link] voted for him anyway [link=https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2016/results/president]eight million more[/link] than voted for him in 2016.
But the 71 million people who voted for Donald Trump despite his incompetence, despite his lying, his bullying, his cheating, his racism, despite all the moral failings he proudly flaunts as virtues? Those people arent going anywhere, the poison-spewing right-wing media that created them isnt going anywhere, and [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/04/us/politics/trump-post-presidency-influence.html]Donald Trump himself isnt going anywhere[/link]. And its not remotely clear what the rest of us can do about any of that.
It is a great gift to see a future full of possibility again. But the fact that 71 million people voted for Donald Trump should be, for everyone who voted for Mr. Biden, a cause for profound and pervasive grief.
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[link=https://morningconsult.com/form/tracking-voter-trust-in-elections/]https://morningconsult.co…er-trust-in-elections/[/link]
[b]The share of Republicans who trust official election results has dropped by 43 points:[/b] In a poll conducted in late October, 70 percent of Republicans said official election results will be either very or most likely reliable. In the latest survey, just 27 percent say the same.
[b]Two-thirds of Republicans say the 2020 election was not free and fair: [/b]44 percent of Republicans say it definitely was not free and fair, and another 23 percent say it probably was not. Thats nearly twice the share of Republicans who said the race would not be free and fair just before the election.
[b]Overall trust in elections plummets among Republicans: [/b]Prior to the election, 66 percent of GOP voters said they had at least some trust in the U.S. election system. In the latest poll, that dropped to 35 percent. Democratic trust, meanwhile, jumped from 63 percent to 80 percent.
There is a cost. As a legal exercise, Trump’s efforts to overturn the results has been a complete failure.
As a Trumpian political exercise meant to destroy support for institutions, it has been quite successful.-
Apparently lovers of the Constitution do not believe in democracy & voting.
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You guys are great. There’s a nice handy table of bar graphs at the bottom on that article that will show you the reverse for 2016.
It’s just more of a reflection of partisanship when a person’s “side” loses these days.-
Lost?
Biden won. By more of a mandate than Trump did in 2016. Biden did not win the College while losing the popular vote by millions of votes, Biden also won by millions of votes. Highest vote count ever in history.
So who is being partisan questioning this votes results?-
Uh Hillary and the Dem resistance for 4 years lol Come on man.
That article Dergon posted showed only 43% of Dems believed the 2016 election was fair. It’s just a flip back and forth when your “side” loses.
Also, while I do believe Biden won, he certainly doesn’t have a “mandate.”
Biden won. Trump lost. But, “Trumpism” won. You can see that across the country with the state races, House, Senate, etc.
You get a “mandate” when you wave into all three branches and have concordant state house waves similar to 2008 Obama and less so, 2016 Trump.
This is more of a “man we really hate Trump but dang do we really hate the liberal platform too”. There’s a reason most people said they were better off than 4 years ago.-
Im not sure how this dems or HRC didnt accept the election narrative started. This is made up BS by people like Gym Jordan. Hillary gave a concession speech on November 9th. Barrack Obama was helpful to the Trump transition. Trump even was gracious to Obama. See the Tweet.
Whats happening now is not accepting the election loss and acting petty. Trying to stoke more division than has already been stoked.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Im not sure how this dems or HRC didnt accept the election narrative started.
Just based off their actions. The day trump won, they started their work to undermine him. Sure, eventually she gave a speech, but at the very same time, her supporters in the agencies already worked on overthrowing him.
Just because he was an inept and inefficient president doesn’t mean the people he defeated in 2016 were not evil.-
His blatant behavior that threatened to overthrow himself
And Hillary conceded to trump at 3:00 AM election night
Public concession was 7-8 hrs later
Stop the apples to apples bull sheet
Trump lost and is hiding in his bunker pouting for 2 weeks now
This is not apples to apples
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All this talk about Trump persecution is revisionist history on so many different levels.
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Quote from Frumious
All this talk about Trump persecution is revisionist history on so many different levels.
FROM NPR June 28, 2019:
Former President Jimmy Carter says President Trump would not have won the 2016 election without help from Russia, commenting shortly after Trump made a smiling appearance alongside Russian President Vladimir Putin at the G-20 Summit in Japan.
Carter, a Democrat, said that he views Trump, a Republican, as an[b] illegitimate president.[/b]
Speaking at [link=https://www.cartercenter.org/donate/carter_center_weekend/index.html]a Carter Center event[/link] at a resort in Leesburg, Va., on Friday, the former president was asked how the U.S. should respond to Russia’s involvement in the presidential election that put Trump into office.
Carter replied:”Well, the president himself should condemn it, admit that it happened, which I think 16 [of the] intelligence agencies have already agreed to say. And there’s no doubt that the Russians did interfere in the election. And I think the interference although not yet quantified, if fully investigated would show that [b]Trump didn’t actually win the election in 2016. He lost the election, and he was put into office because the Russians interfered on his behalf.” [/b]The former president seemed to be referring to a [link=https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf]2017 analysis from the Director of National Intelligence[/link], which, while speaking for 17 U.S. intelligence agencies, was specifically relying on three of those agencies the CIA, FBI and NSA [link=https://www.npr.org/sections/memmos/2018/07/18/630057400/guidance-on-17-intelligence-agencies]when it said[/link] the U.S. intelligence community had concluded Russia interfered in the election. Other agencies then affirmed the conclusion.
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Yeah we just lived through 4 years of #Resistance and #Russia with innumerable Dems saying Trump was not legitimate, Russia got him elected, etc.
Clinton (and Obama) instituted a freaking spy campaign on Trump and attempted a soft coup! Trump filing a few lawsuits and being a sore loser is not even in the same ballpark. -
Quote from Cubsfan10
Yeah we just lived through 4 years of #Resistance and #Russia with innumerable Dems saying Trump was not legitimate, Russia got him elected, etc.
Clinton (and Obama) instituted a freaking spy campaign on Trump and attempted a soft coup! Trump filing a few lawsuits and being a sore loser is not even in the same ballpark.
It is a fascinating psychological phenomenon how partisans (who are no doubt intelligent and educated- at least on this site) have such selective memory -
Bottom line is Trump lost
Biden has 306 electoral votes
Its time to take the pacifier out of the mouth and quit crying and whining
Put your big boy pants on and man up
Remember the republicans spent a few years yelling at us all about participation trophies
There is no prize for second place
You lost GTFO and quit your crying
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That might be your best post yet.
It’s definitely one of the most honest and telling. -
Its over
Quit crying
Move on
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Exactly.
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Quote from Chirorad84
Bottom line is Trump lost
Biden has 306 electoral votes
Its time to take the pacifier out of the mouth and quit crying and whining
Put your big boy pants on and man up
Remember the republicans spent a few years yelling at us all about participation trophies
There is no prize for second place
You lost GTFO and quit your crying
Not sure why your panties are in such a bundle. Check my posts, show me where I said that Trump won the election. The point of this conversation is that [b]both[/b] sides yell fraud and claim that winners are illegitimate presidents. Why not tell Carter/HRC/the resistance et al. to quit crying that Trump was elected due to Russian interference? To believe that this is a new concept with Trump is just delusional. -
Thats persecution???
Not much by comparison.
How about how Trump started his campaign? How it was spread & repeated knowing it was a lie.
BIRTHERISM! Born in Kenya, not America! Illegitimate President.
Now, STOLEN ELECTION!!!!
Although Republicans cannot explain how this magic was done.
Pointing out Donalds faults& believing him guilty of them all is hardly persecution. -
Quote from Frumious
Thats persecution???
Not much by comparison.How about how Trump started his campaign? How it was spread & repeated knowing it was a lie.
BIRTHERISM! Born in Kenya, not America! Illegitimate President.
Now, STOLEN ELECTION!!!!
Although Republicans cannot explain how this magic was done.Pointing out Donalds faults& believing him guilty of them all is hardly persecution.
Wasn’t Trump a democrat when the whole Birtherism conspiracy was invented? Regardless thats a deflection with respect to the current topic. I don’t recall ever posting that Trump is an honest, virtuous man (please show me if I did). The guy is a narcissist a$$ but to be fair, the left/democrats/former D-presidents relentlessly claimed Trump was an illegitimate president who won due to fraud/stole the election etc. Please explain how this is different now? -
Also Clinton’s team “trafficked” the birther thing too after Obama stomped all over her in a debate in ’08.
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Ok
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Revisionist history on so many different levels.
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Quote from jd4540
Quote from Cubsfan10
Yeah we just lived through 4 years of #Resistance and #Russia with innumerable Dems saying Trump was not legitimate, Russia got him elected, etc.
Clinton (and Obama) instituted a freaking spy campaign on Trump and attempted a soft coup! Trump filing a few lawsuits and being a sore loser is not even in the same ballpark.
It is a fascinating psychological phenomenon how partisans (who are no doubt intelligent and educated- at least on this site) have such selective memory
Never mind, I see you two are true believers. Obama spying. Soft coup.
Kool aid not my drink, thanks. -
Nate Cohn: “Joe Biden will still be the president, despite attempts to subvert the will of the electorate. But it’s not so hard to imagine a slightly different world–a closer race, a few more Wayne-ish dissenters–where similar efforts could threaten continuity of constitutional government” [image]https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif[/image]
