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Coronavirus, politicaleconomic discussion
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OH stats looks like the 18-40 group are having big increases, probably due to opening bars. We have counties now with mask requirements. Including Cuyahoga (Cleveland).
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[b]Trump Has No Plan to Reopen Schools[/b]
Teagan Goddard:
President Trump is demanding that schools fully open for the coming school year. He said he would pressure governors to do so and even threatened to withhold federal funding if they did not.
Trump [link=https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1280853299600789505]tweeted this morning[/link] that Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and many other countries have opened schools with no problems. He insisted that Democrats think it would be bad for them politically if schools open before the November election.
As [link=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/future-coronavirus-recovery-runs-through-classroom-n1232039]Benjy Sarlin[/link] writes, opening schools is a very complicated issue. It requires a detailed plan and botching it can have disastrous consequences that ripple across society.
But even before we get to a plan, we have to get the coronavirus under control. Here are the new reported coronavirus cases yesterday for the countries Trump cited as a model for reopening schools:
[ul][*]Germany: 298[*]Denmark: 10[*]Norway: 11[*]Sweden: 57 [/ul] In contrast, the United States had 55,442 cases yesterday.
Its true these countries are much smaller in terms of population. But while Germany is a quarter of the size of the United States, it doesnt have anywhere near the level of health crisis.
As [link=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/trump-s-insistence-school-reopening-missing-one-thing-plan-n1233148]First Read[/link] points out, [b]Trump appears to be making the same mistake with schools that he did when he called for the U.S. economy to reopen last spring.[/b]
There simply is no path to a vibrant economy without getting the virus under control. And the same is true with reopening the schools.-
ROLFLMGO – Trump using Germany and Norway and Denmark as positive examples to emulate.
If only.
It would be awesome if we had a leader like Germany’s who is both intelligent & well informed, who understands the issue as more than a re-election gimmick but as a matter of public health and actual lives. -
Regarding Sweden, what exactly have they gained with their method of doing virtually noting to control and mitigate the virus with one of the world’s highest CFRs, 542 deaths per million? That’s even higher than our death rate!
And their economy has taken a big hit, as big as the countries who did a hell of a lot more to control the virus.
And for what?
They literally gained nothing, said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. Its a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains.
The elevated death toll resulting from Swedens approach has been clear for many weeks. What is only now emerging is how Sweden, despite letting its economy run unimpeded, has still suffered business-destroying, prosperity-diminishing damage, and at nearly the same magnitude of its neighbors.Swedens [link=https://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-cenbank-forecast/table-swedish-cbank-forecasts-key-rate-at-0-for-coming-years-idUSS3N2AC001]central bank[/link] expects its economy to contract by 4.5 percent this year, a revision from a previously expected gain of 1.3 percent. The unemployment rate jumped to 9 percent in May from 7.1 percent in March. The overall damage to the economy means the recovery will be protracted, with unemployment remaining elevated, Oxford Economics concluded in a recent research note.
This is more or less how damage caused by the pandemic has played out in Denmark, where the [link=https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-denmark-economy/denmarks-central-bank-sees-economy-shrink-by-41-this-year-idUSFWN2DT0WQ]central bank[/link] expects that the economy will shrink 4.1 percent this year, and where joblessness has edged up to 5.6 percent in May from 4.1 percent in March.
In short, Sweden suffered a vastly higher death rate while failing to collect on the expected economic gains.
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They actually live. They aren’t tools to political and global overlords who want to manipulate them. They understand that life is more important than fear.
And stop lying on every post you make. You’re disgusting. You hate life and prefer darkness and control.
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[link=https://politicalwire.com/2020/07/10/jacksonville-choice-sums-up-trumps-approach-to-pandemic/]https://politicalwire.com/2020/07/10/jacksonville-choice-sums-up-trumps-approach-to-pandemic/
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[h1]Jacksonville Choice Sums Up Trumps Pandemic Policy[/h1]
President Trump pushed the Republican party to move their convention from Charlotte after that city insisted on maintaining face mask and social distancing rules, things Trump thought wouldnt look very good on television.
So he eagerly moved his acceptance speech to Jacksonville because that city had no such health provisions.
But as [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/07/10/trumps-ongoing-shortsightedness-about-pandemic-may-be-sealing-his-fate/?utm_campaign=wp_politics&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=rss]Philip Bump[/link] points out, even if you dont know what happened, you know what happened. Charlottes efforts to contain the virus meant a smaller surge in new cases. Jacksonvilles failure to do so had the opposite effect.
This chart was entirely predictable:
[img]https://1lme911nv0cg3ned26127983-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/jacksonville-charlotte-e1594390362968.png[/img]So naturally, just a couple weeks after Trump moved the GOP convention, Jacksonville [link=https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/06/29/jacksonville-issues-face-mask-mandate/]did an about-face[/link] and issued the same face mask mandate that made Charlotte such an unattractive city for Trump.
This pretty much explains Trumps entire approach to the pandemic.
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[link=https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/[/link]
The death rate in all of these states that are “exploding” is orders of magnitude lower than that of the first wave in the northeast. Why are we making such a big deal out of this?-
[link=https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/tuberculosis]https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/tuberculosis[/link]
1.5 million deaths from TB in 2018 out of 10 million cases. This is a death rate that is currently more than 300% higher than the COVID-19 death rate.
Did we shut down the world?-
[b]Coronavirus Is the Real Swing Voter[/b][/h1] [b]
[/b]
[link=https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/andrew-sullivan-covid-19-will-be-the-real-swing-voter.html]Andrew Sullivan[/link]: The virus will be the real swing voter in this election. The sheer scale of the health crisis, and its current trajectory, obviously sweeps every other issue before it, as it should. It sure hasnt ended the culture war, which at the elite level is arguably more intense than ever, but it is in the driving seat of the economy, and that is almost always dispositive. If we enter November closing in on 200,000 deaths, with the toll rising, and in a virally caused economic slump, I just cant see how any incumbent can get elected, and Im usually pretty good at seeing the worst.
The only way Trump can win is to ignore the pandemic or lie about it. He is trying both right now, and neither tactic is working. And as it becomes clearer and clearer that the U.S. is now a disgraced and humiliated outlier in the developed world in its tackling of the virus, Trumps ultimate responsibility for this dismal response and thereby our struggling economy will be harder and harder to deny. We may even be approaching the moment when the cult finally cracks. Which suggests to me a Biden and Democratic landslide is no longer out of the question.-
check out the author —
[b]Next Relief Bill Must Deal with Coronavirus[/b][/h1]
[link=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/13/mick-mulvaney-next-stimulus-bill-should-deal-with-covid-19.html]Mick Mulvaney[/link]: If lawmakers still see the need to run the presses, they need to realize that the current economic crisis is public-health driven. As such, using ordinary fiscal tools might not be particularly efficacious. Put another way, the fact that people arent going on vacation probably has more to do with fear of getting sick than it does with their economic condition. Giving people a check, or some financial incentive to travel, wont solve their problem. Make people feel safe to go back on an airplane or cruise ship, and they will of their own accord.
Any stimulus should be directed at the root cause of our recession: dealing with Covid. I know it isnt popular to talk about in some Republican circles, but we still have a testing problem in this country.
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[h1][b]Trump In Denial as Pandemic Consumes Presidency[/b][/h1]
[link=https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/15/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus/index.html]Stephen Collinson[/link]: Rarely has a president shown himself to be so unequal to a tragic national emergency.
Hundreds of Americans are dying daily and tens of thousands are getting infected from a once-in-a-century virus. States and cities are closing down again, threatening to trigger a ruinous new economic slump. Doctors and nurses lack sufficient protective gear as they battle the deadly pathogen. And with testing swamped by waves of disease, one top official is warning of the the most difficult time ever for US public health this winter.
Yet this is what is on Donald Trumps mind: Joe Biden didnt fix the countrys roads and bridges, crowds of bikers and boaters in MAGA hats prove that election polls are wrong, and the border wall is almost finished (except it isnt). Oh, and by the way, where is Hunter Biden?
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/powerup/2020/07/15/powerup-trump-s-spaghetti-on-the-wall-campaign-is-still-seeking-its-special-sauce/5f0e37c288e0fa7b44f7491d/]Jacqueline Alemany[/link]: He invoked his opponents name nearly 30 times on a range of topics, and despite his claims otherwise, sounded like an underdog on shaky ground throwing spaghetti at the wall to find a new message that might stick.
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Trumps Push to Open Schools is a Political Loser[/h1]
Republican strategists are warning that President Trumps push to reopen schools will flop with critical suburban voters unless the coronavirus is put in check and confidence in his pandemic leadership revives, the [link=https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/trump-school-reopening-strategy-on-track-to-fail-politically-gop-operatives]Washington Examiner[/link] reports.
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[link=https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-07-17/donald-trump-may-sabotage-the-next-relief-bill?srnd=premium]Trump May Sabotage the Next Relief Bill[/link][/h3]
Into all of this {pre-existing tension and debate over the next round of stimulus} the White House on Thursday [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2020/07/16/payroll-tax-cut-trump-coronavirus/]tossed another complication[/link]: Trump may veto the package if a payroll-tax holiday isnt included. The problem? Trump has pushed this idea before, and no one Democrat or Republican seems to support it.
Its just astonishing, although at this point not surprising, how poorly Trump is playing this. If he places such a high priority on a payroll-tax holiday, he shouldve been pushing hard for it not mentioning it in passing a few times, but making a sustained case in public. He also shouldve been poking around Capitol Hill looking for potential allies and trade-offs. Are there Trump-loving senators who would be willing to fight for such a measure within the party? What would Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell ask for in return? Or: What are the possibilities for creating a cross-party coalition, with Trump supporting a House Democratic priority (robust unemployment insurance? Money for state and local governments?) in exchange for payroll-tax relief. I dont think House Speaker Nancy Pelosi would go far it, but maybe she would!
Of course, theres also the possibility that Trump doesnt actually care about this but some in his administration do. In that case, a strong president wouldve shut down the whole debate, or had his chief of staff do so. It would actually make sense if Trump was relatively indifferent to the substance of the next relief package and simply insisted that Congress get it done quickly. But that doesnt at all cohere with pushing this unpopular measure as the White Houses big ask.
I think its more likely than not that Congress gets something done before the August recess, and that Trump ultimately goes along with it. But theres still a chance that the whole thing blows up, and takes the economy down with it.-
[b]Trump Faces Widespread Distrust on Coronavirus[/b][/h1]
A new [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-faces-rising-disapproval-and-widespread-distrust-on-coronavirus-post-abc-poll-finds/2020/07/16/04aa9db2-c79d-11ea-a99f-3bbdffb1af38_story.html]Washington Post-ABC News poll[/link] finds Americans views of President Trumps handling of the coronavirus pandemic have deteriorated significantly as cases rise across the country and personal fears of becoming infected persist.
Key finding: More than half of the public 52% now disapproves strongly of Trumps handling of the outbreak, roughly double the percentage who say they strongly approve of his efforts and an increase from 36% in strong disapproval since March.-
Trumps Magical Thinking Runs Into Reality, Again
Donald Trump finally cancels the Republican National Convention that was never going to happen anyway.
President Trump is making history again. Not the kind of monumental, glorified achievements he envisions, though. This time hes become the first president in modern history to foul up not one, but two of his own conventions. In the same summer.Thats gotta be a record.
You may recall that beginning last spring the Democrats approached the idea of holding their convention quite cautiously. First they delayed it and then, almost immediately, they began planning to make it virtual because of concerns about the wisdom of holding a mass gathering in an enclosed space during a pandemic.
Trump and MAGA world mocked this cautious approach.
[link=https://thebulwark.com/trumps-magical-thinking-runs-into-reality-again/]https://thebulwark.com/trumps-magica…reality-again/[/link]
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[link=https://www.salon.com/2020/07/26/a-field-guide-to-the-pandemic-deniers/]https://www.salon.com/2020/07/26/a-field-guide-to-the-pandemic-deniers/[/link]
[h1]Genus Covidiotae: A field guide to the pandemic deniers[/h1] [h2]Disinformation and immaturity regarding COVID-19 has manifested in a variety of forms[/h2][b]The Eye Rollers[/b]
The eye rollers think that all of the news over the pandemic is exaggerated hype. This is the line of reasoning that suggests that if we didn’t test for the virus so well, our numbers would be more in line with other developed nations. The eye rollers think that the coronavirus is just like the flu and that its mortality rates are of no real significance.
You’d think all you’d need to do with an eye roller is show them the inside of an ICU or have them hear stories from those who have been gravely sickened by the virus. But the key to the eye roller is that they aren’t going to believe a single piece of evidence because, from their view, all proof of the dangers of the pandemic is manufactured to produce hysteria.
[b]The Shoulder Shruggers[/b]
The shoulder shruggers are your Ayn Rand-style covidiots. These folks get the numbers and the science. They have a full sense of the dead bodies and damaged lungs, but they simply don’t care. They epitomize the “profit over people” worldview.
This is the line of reasoning we saw on display by Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick who suggested that grandparents should be willing to die in order to save the economy for their grandkids: “My message: let’s get back to work, let’s get back to living, let’s be smart about it, and those of us who are 70-plus, we’ll take care of ourselves.” According to him, there is no reason to “sacrifice the country” in order to save a few old people.
[b]The Narcissistic Hedonists[/b]
The hedonists simply don’t want to be inconvenienced by the virus. They want their manicures, haircuts and happy hours. Their own selfishness dominates their behavior and clouds their ability to consider the wellbeing of others. They see the entire world from the vantage point of their pleasure-driven egos and they outright refuse to be inconvenienced for the benefit of others.
The narcissistic hedonists talk about how they have a right not to wear a mask and how those who worry over the pandemic should just stay home. “You’re infringing on my rights,” they scream any time they are told they can’t enter a store without a mask. “This is a free country, and I’m here to shop.”
[b]The Self-Proclaimed Scientists[/b]
The self-proclaimed scientists are a unique strain of covidiot that derives from this nation’s long resistance to expertise. The self-proclaimed scientist will tell you that you should not listen to Dr. Anthony Fauci. Instead you should listen to them, since they have done “research” and they know more about the virus than world-leading scientists.
Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, recently warned of the dangerous consequences of our national anti-science bias: “One of the problems we face in the United States is that unfortunately, there is a combination of an anti-science bias that people are for reasons that sometimes are, you know, inconceivable and not understandable they just don’t believe science and they don’t believe authority.”
[b]The Conspiracy Theorists[/b]
One of the special features of conspiracy theorists is that they are found on both the left and the right, unlike a lot of the other strains of covidiots. They converge in the bizarre alternate reality of anti-vaxxers. But, regarding the coronavirus, the conspiracy theories are largely skewed to the right.
The range of conspiracy theories about the pandemic is simply too broad to cover in this piece. It spans from theories that the virus was deliberately started by China or by Bill Gates to theories that the virus simply isn’t real at all. Nature reported in March that “the website Biohackinfo.com falsely claimed that Gates planned to use a coronavirus vaccine as a ploy to monitor people through an injected microchip or quantum-dot spy software.”
Healthline reported in June that 25 percent of people believe unproven theories about COVID-19. This is all to show that there is a strange urge in this country to attach to fantasy theories rather than facts.
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That is an awesome article
I think we have several Aunt Minnie posters that fit a few of those descriptions
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The anti-expertise sickness that plagues the United States is sadly to blame for much of the failed U.S. response to the pandemic, but its negative impact on the functioning of our nation goes well beyond flaws in our healthcare system and public health policy. As long as we continue to be skeptical of knowledge and attracted to BS, we can expect our nation to continue to look less and less like a developed nation.
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Is this not rad grinder and threadenhancer
The danger to the conspiracy theorist is not just their refusal to accept evidence that challenges their views, but rather their paranoid worries that any evidence is actually propaganda designed to dupe them and cause harm. The conspiracy theorist is so worried thinking that information is manipulation that they lose any sight of what the truth actually is.
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[h1][b]DNC Hits Trump on Trying to Reopen Schools[/b][/h1]
The Democratic National Committee is launching a new offensive on President Trumps handling of the coronavirus pandemic with a focus on the thorny issue of reopening schools, [link=https://youtu.be/I8FuY1RbfD4]r[/link]olling out a new TV ad on Monday as parents and educators across the country express widespread concern ahead of the new school year,….Other countries followed guidance. He ignored science. Desperate to reopen schools because he thinks it will save his reelection, threatening their funding, ignoring how the virus spreads, risking teachers and parents lives, going against the advice of experts.
It ends with the narrator asking, Do you trust him to do whats best for our children? Because this is not a test. Trump is failing, after which Trump can be heard saying: I aced it. I aced the test.[link]https://youtu.be/I8FuY1RbfD4[/link]
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One question still dogs Trump: Why not try harder to solve the coronavirus crisis?[/h1]
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-not-solve-coronavirus-crisis/2020/07/26/7fca9a92-cdb0-11ea-91f1-28aca4d833a0_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most]https://www.washingtonpos…ter&wpisrc=nl_most[/link]
Maybe he learned by watching NY and knows one can better take credit for the improvement if one waits until it’s too late? The easiest way to guarantee the numbers will look good is to wait for the virus to have burned through the entire population and then start mitigation methods. It worked great in NYC.-
Completely agree TE. Looks like the country is turning the corner on number of new cases this weekend.
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It’s going to be interesting to watch. The case numbers in the hot spots are already coming down. The cases heat map on the COVID-19 projections site is showing shades of blue for AZ, TX and FL. TX is deep blue. Hospitalizations are decreasing. Deaths are peaking soon and will begin falling.
What are they going to say when Trump starts claiming victory in these states? After all he did change his guidance, right?
Cuomo with Fauci’s help is getting props for the case and mortality numbers in NY right now, despite having the highest deaths per million in the world.
We all know how untrue both narratives are/would be. We also know truth is meaningless in politics as long as enough are willing to believe.
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[link=https://www.changeresearch.com/post/states-of-play-battleground-wave-10]https://www.changeresearch.com/post/states-of-play-battleground-wave-10[/link]
[b]Widespread support for policies to deal with the economic impact of COVID-19[/b]
On the major economic measures, voters’ views are trending in the wrong direction. Positive ratings of the US economy are down 5 points nationally (from 37% to 32% excellent/good) and are down 3 points in the battleground (from 39% to 36%). Positive ratings of the US job market are down 2 points nationally (from 36% to 34% excellent/good) and are down 2 points in the battleground (from 39% to 37%).
Furthermore, nationally 34% say they or someone in their household is [i]still [/i]dealing with lower wages or a salary cut due to COVID-19 and 27% say their household is [i]still [/i]on furlough or out of a job due to COVID-19.We tested a number of policies being proposed to deal with the economy and COVID-19 relief. The broadly popular elements included the following:
80% support an additional round of direct payments of up to $1,200 for individuals making less than $99,000, consistent with our past research.
77% support funding for COVID-19 testing and contact tracing;
76% support invest in expanding broadband internet access;
68% support relief to state and local governments facing budget shortfalls due to the coronavirus outbreak, consistent with our past research.
62% support extending the $600 a week enhanced unemployment benefits for those who have lost their jobs to COVID-19, consistent with our past research on this topic.
Finally, giving corporations legal immunity from COVID-19 related lawsuits only had the support of 32% of voters, and 58% were opposed. This is not even a broadly popular idea among Republicans in the battleground. Only 52% of them support this idea, a very weak starting point for an issue the Senate has indicated is a possible sticking point for them.
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Who doesn’t like free money?
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OVER 100 HOUSTON DOCTORS SLAM REP. DAN CRENSHAW FOR SPREADING DANGEROUS DISINFORMATION ON CORONAVIRUS
[link=https://theintercept.com/2020/07/17/houston-doctors-dan-crenshaw-disinformation-coronavirus/?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=theintercept&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1oppt8YS3eI3wR2Rm7mhtvxJdp4Dv_08HCez9SmkSSOZZQL686eu-E77s]https://theintercept.com/…z9SmkSSOZZQL686eu-E77s[/link]
More than 100 doctors, medical professionals, and emergency room physicians in the Houston area have signed their names to a letter condemning Republican Rep. Daniel Crenshaw for spreading misinformation during the Covid-19 pandemic, which has been ravaging the Texas city hard in recent weeks.
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Curious as to why you posted an article from July 17?
Is it a way to test whether or not someone actually reads the story before commenting? It would be good to see a follow up article to determine if the letter was successful.
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What would you expect from the follow up to determine “success”?
I suppose *maybe* you could argue there was some change in Rep. Crenshaw’s behavior. Before the letter he was ranting about “we must open the schools fully” .. in the last could of weeks it has been more “pat on the back” to Texans for success in mask use and social distancing.
He has mostly, however, turned his ire to Antifa and radical leftists destroying America as we know it.
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Quote from dergon
What would you expect from the follow up to determine “success”?
I suppose *maybe* you could argue there was some change in Rep. Crenshaw’s behavior. Before the letter he was ranting about “we must open the schools fully” .. in the last could of weeks it has been more “pat on the back” to Texans for success in mask use and social distancing.
Yes, this is what I was getting at. If I were one of those physicians I would hope he would listen to my expertise and change behavior. Sounds like he did to a degree.
This could be an example of someone being upset with the result despite it being what they asked for. Not much point in that unless the underlying motive is political.-
It’s hard to tease out whether the letter had any effect … since this time period also correlates to Trump wearing a mask and “re-booting” his response to the pandemic by taking it seriously. SO it was finally a green light for elected Republicans to believe in science for a while.
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We should all be happy about Trump’s shift then.
However, it is troubling for the most effective campaign strategy of the Dems and the never Trumpers.-
*shrug*
People have said literally dozens of times “Wow! This is a shift in tone for Trump!” … it never sticks.
He’s already back to trashing Fauci on twitter.-
I’m not expecting it to stick. I don’t think anything has changed about Trump. He has just added one more thing he will try to take credit for when the time is right. He’s a master at the game.
As I said before, it doesn’t matter if any of it is true. It only matters what voters want to believe. As cases continue to fall and deaths peak and fall as well, he will have his opportunity. Get ready for it.
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But
When schools re open we will see a new Uptick in cases
Early to mid October
Remember florida and Texas started re opening second week of May
Florida has had 10,000 cases a day since July 4th
Texas not far behind
Watch what happens when schools open
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That seems like a risky thing to hope for in the plan to oust DJT.
I’m doubtful the coming turn around in cases and mortality will be enough for Trump. I will predict that the gap in polling numbers will lessen heading into October.
From a close observer of “the middle”, the worst thing the left could do is look like they are going further left. Add that to an improving COVID situation and one might see one fear replace another.-
Im not hoping for it
This is just the way the virus works
Your kind just cant seem
To get that pointThe virus doesnt care about political affiliation
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It amazes when professional people act as if this virus is over
Without a vaccine we are in 2nd inning
Maybe 3rd
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It is over, it’s not going away = it’s over
Ruin our future so that some oldies MIGHT live a little bit longer? Sorry – and we don’t think twice about it in flu season either, so it’s nothing new. And excess mortality isn’t going to be that great, anyway. The fatassess also knew that being unhealthy ultimately had to pay the piper. That’s life. Don’t destroy others lives and futures for no good reason. -
Quote from Chirorad84
It amazes when professional people act as if this virus is over
Without a vaccine we are in 2nd inning
Maybe 3rd
Haha. It’s extra innings and MLB just put a man on second.-
You wanted an example of comicallly wrong
Your post
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Quote from Thread Enhancer
Quote from Chirorad84
It amazes when professional people act as if this virus is over
Without a vaccine we are in 2nd inning
Maybe 3rd
Haha. It’s extra innings and MLB just put a man on second.
Really?
I don’t see how we’re not waist deep in this all through Winter 2021 and into Spring. …
Best case vaccine deployment is early 2021.
I don’t how that plays out in the “innings” comparison … but certainly not near the end.-
Yep
These deniers are unreal
Its like that have no medical training and are just engaged in wishful thinking
Its quite odd
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[b]How the Pandemic Defeated America [/b]
[b][/b]
[link=https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/coronavirus-american-failure/614191/]Ed Yong[/link]: How did it come to this? A virus a thousand times smaller than a dust mote has humbled and humiliated the planets most powerful nation. America has failed to protect its people, leaving them with illness and financial ruin. It has lost its status as a global leader. It has careened between inaction and ineptitude. The breadth and magnitude of its errors are difficult, in the moment, to truly fathom.
Despite ample warning, the U.S. squandered every possible opportunity to control the coronavirus. And despite its considerable advantagesimmense resources, biomedical might, scientific expertiseit floundered. While countries as different as South Korea, Thailand, Iceland, Slovakia, and Australia acted decisively to bend the curve of infections downward, the U.S. achieved merely a plateau in the spring, which changed to an appalling upward slope in the summer.
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I was just making a joke about the new MLB rules. I also set you two up to use a position taken in a loose analogy as somehow evidence they are right or wrong.
Also, are you two still oblivious to the fact that this virus spreads so fast without mitigation that it reaches a point of natural immunity such that the curves all go down are their own? Its done in NY/NJ/Sweden. Getting close in Az/TX/FL. It nowhere close to done in New Zealand, Australia, Norway etc.
One can argue the cost of the results according to their political and tribal affiliations.-
I seem to recall several posters saying that New Zealand was the model country of the world regarding covid. Some of us suggested they would just be getting their cases later on now instead and the strict lockdowns were just pushing the virus down the road. hmmm
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As opposed to deniers saying Sweden was the model?
No one called New Zealand THE model ever. Find that quote. A model, yes.
Non-contextual exaggeration is the model of the deniers.-
[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/510376-trump-campaign-emails-supporters-encouraging-mask-wearing-we-have-nothing]Trump campaign emails supporters encouraging mask-wearing: ‘We have nothing to lose'[/link]
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Quote from Frumious
As opposed to deniers saying Sweden was the model?
No one called New Zealand THE model ever. Find that quote. A model, yes.
Non-contextual exaggeration is the model of the deniers.
Well, New Zealand is the model, but it would be hard to replicate that in many places without significant challenges.
Let’s remember, they have no community disease right now, no restrictions, essentially normal life.-
[h1]Trump’s Self-Delusion Over Virus Deaths[/h1]
[link=https://twitter.com/axios/status/1290497186489348096]https://twitter.com/axios/status/1290497186489348096[/link]Its sometimes hard to determine whether President Trump is being willfully misleading or if he truly believes what hes saying. But an astonishing [link=https://twitter.com/axios/status/1290497186489348096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1290497186489348096%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailybeast.com%2Ftrump-reveals-self-delusion-over-covid-statistics-in-mind-blowing-argument-with-reporter]interview clip from Axios[/link] appears to show that Trump has genuinely managed to convince himself that his response to the coronavirus pandemic has been effectivebecause he only considers partial and deceptively flattering statistics to be true, the [link=https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-reveals-self-delusion-over-covid-statistics-in-mind-blowing-argument-with-reporter?ref=home]Daily Beast[/link] reports.
Brandishing childishly simplistic, brightly colored COVID-19 graphs presumably provided to him by aides trying to keep him happy, Trump proudly tells Axios Jonathan Swan that the U.S. is lower than the world, without elaborating. When Swan looks at the chart, it becomes clear Trump is only considering death as a proportion of coronavirus casesnot as a proportion of population, which shows the U.S. is faring very badly.
Trump snaps back: You cant do that. You have to go by where look, here is the United States You have to go by the cases.
.@jonathanvswan: “Oh, you’re doing death as a proportion of cases. I’m talking about death as a proportion of population. That’s where the U.S. is really bad. Much worse than South Korea, Germany, etc.”@realdonaldtrump: “You can’t do that.”
Swan: “Why can’t I do that?” pic.twitter.com/MStySfkV39
— Axios (@axios) August 4, 2020
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Watch the new Axios clip they put out. Trump looks like an absolute fool talking to Swan about deaths. Were #1 as a proportion of deaths to cases. Hes like 1000 people die a day. Trump claiming its being reported wrong. He should be removed from office post haste.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Watch the new Axios clip they put out. Trump looks like an absolute fool talking to Swan about deaths. Were #1 as a proportion of deaths to cases. Hes like 1000 people die a day. Trump claiming its being reported wrong. He should be removed from office post haste.
It is very similar to the way posters on AM only want to talk about *certain* pieces of data in order to trivialize the pandemic.
The fact that he won’t even acknowledge that “number of deaths” is a true metric is just idiocy.
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Do you guys believe every country in the world treats death certificates the same? For example, someone dies in an MVC. They also test positive for COVID-19. Does every country record that death the same?
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Quote from dergon
It is very similar to the way posters on AM only want to talk about *certain* pieces of data in order to trivialize the pandemic.
The fact that he won’t even acknowledge that “number of deaths” is a true metric is just idiocy.
Yes, talk about elderly relatives being at risk of dying or dying and much of the AM response is “LOL!” As so many posts have said, it’s only old people who are dying, as if that were true.
Some people think their old “useless” relatives aren’t disposable. Some people think 160,000+ dead met with a shrug is something that needs to be addressed with more than a shrug and dismissal.
[link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxT0IFdaaQc&feature=youtu.be]https://www.youtube.com/w…c&feature=youtu.be[/link]
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Quote from Frumious
Yes, talk about elderly relatives being at risk of dying or dying and much of the AM [b]response is “LOL[/b]!” As so many posts have said, it’s only old people who are dying, as if that were true.
You are making up nonexistent characters again Frumi. I would ask just what you did a few posts above. Find that quote
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The X-factor in handling a worldwide pandemic – Donald Trump as President of the US.
[link]https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02277-6[/link]
The exercises anticipated several failures that have played out in the management of COVID-19, including leaky travel bans, medical-equipment shortages, massive disorganization, misinformation and a scramble for vaccines. But the scenarios didnt anticipate some of the problems that have plagued the pandemic response, such as a shortfall of diagnostic tests, and world leaders who reject the advice of public-health specialists.
[b]Most strikingly, biosecurity researchers didnt predict that the United States would be among the hardest-hit countries. On the contrary, last year, leaders in the field ranked the United States top in the Global Health Security Index, which graded 195 countries in terms of how well prepared they were to fight outbreaks, on the basis of more than 100 factors. President Donald Trump even held up a copy of the report during a White House briefing on 27 February, declaring: Were rated number one. As he spoke, SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading undetected across the country.[/b]
[i][u][b]Now, as COVID-19 cases in the United States surpass 4 million, with more than 150,000 deaths, the country has proved itself to be one of the most dysfunctional.[/b][/u][/i] Morhard and other biosecurity specialists are asking what went wrong why did dozens of simulations, evaluations and white papers fail to predict or defend against the colossal missteps taken in the worlds wealthiest nation? [b]By contrast, some countries that hadnt ranked nearly so high in evaluations, such as Vietnam, executed swift, cohesive responses[/b].
Yes, modeling can be dead wrong. But then what modeler would calculate the US deliberately becoming dysfunctional and at this level?-
Thats funny Frumi. If the modeler had added in the US deliberately becoming dysfunctional wouldnt they have predicted even more death and destruction? I guess they got lucky they missed that part or it would have been tens of millions of deaths.
And if everyone wants to use the number of cases as evidence of ineptitude you might as well throw in the 40M plus number our favorite modeler Youyang Gu is estimating at this point. 4M is pathetic.
The more I think about this the more I think the premise is correct. Its a massive failure in leadership that has us in this spot. Where was it the worst? NYC.
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Quote from Frumious
Find that quote. A model, yes.
Non-contextual exaggeration is the model of the deniers.
One would think they would wait for another page before doing what they accuse others of.-
Go read quotes from blasting fager castlevania and avocado
Im pretty certain they have all
Made those comments in the pastYou tend to give those from your own tribe a pass
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Cubsfan for recent
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They said lol at old people dying? Ok. Ill just believe you.
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what did I do now?
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Quote from Cubsfan10
what did I do now?
You said “LOL” at elderly dying.
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Quote from Chirorad84
Go read quotes from blasting ****er castlevania and avocado
Im pretty certain they have all
Made those comments in the pastYou tend to give those from your own tribe a pass
They are not my tribe. I recognize some on your list as specializing in trolling Frumi and you for your political positions. They are pretty successful. They would be less so if Frumi and you would stick to the facts and not exaggerate the way Frumi accused them.
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Quote from Pedrad2017
Do you guys believe every country in the world treats death certificates the same? For example, someone dies in an MVC. They also test positive for COVID-19. Does every country record that death the same?
Do you believe it’s off by 1000+ deaths a day?
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Saw pictures of a Georgia school opening. Looked like 2 kids in masks among a sea of unmasked pupils. Lets see how things go in Georgia.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Saw pictures of a Georgia school opening. Looked like 2 kids in masks among a sea of unmasked pupils. Lets see how things go in Georgia.
Georgia is tough to predict because they never had a significant wave and they still have a ways to go before their extinguish point. I think you are correct that it is a wait and see state. Perhaps they are doing the experiment for us like Sweden.-
Given Georgia’s loose restrictions on masks, etc and early reopening, how come they dont have the most infections and deaths per capita? Why arent they orders of magnitude higher?
Hmmmm
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That is a good question.
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It would seem to me that if restrictions, masks etc made a significant difference then Georgia (and similar less restricted places) should have orders of magnitude higher cases and deaths.
Why isn’t this so, pro-mask, regulation, and lockdown people? Any theories?-
It’s not like they don’t have a large metropolis/capital also with some density and all sorts of “diversity”
what did kpack refer to me as saying above? I don’t follow. It’s quite rich when marxists accuse people like us of “not caring about” humans while they have pictures of Fidel, Che and Mao on their wall.-
It was Frumi that made the accusation. Kpack jumped in for moral support. You were mixed in with the usual suspects that said LOL at elderly people dying.
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Georgia: no mask mandate (Governor actually reversed local mask mandates, though some people are obviously wearing them), early re-opening
Deaths due to covid: 3835
Deaths due to influenza/pneumonia per year: ~1500
Deaths per year in GA: ~ 48000 year
GA population (2019): 10,620,000
Covid deaths in GA = 0.036% of population (99.964% survival)
Covid deaths / total deaths in GA per year = 8.0%
[link=https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/why-georgia-reopening-coronavirus-pandemic/610882/]https://www.theatlantic.c…virus-pandemic/610882/[/link]
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You do realize that Georgias 7 day average death toll is on the upswing and higher than it has been at any point In the pandemic
I would offer you a moca test but worry you would use it as rationale to run for president
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Quote from AngryBirds
You do realize that Georgias 7 day average death toll is on the upswing and higher than it has been at any point In the pandemic
I would offer you a moca test but worry you would use it as rationale to run for president
It’s at a plateau and will likely track down soon given the downtrend on the “new cases” graph on the first site and reproduction number being < 1.0
– [link=https://covidtracking.com/data/state/georgia]https://covidtracking.com/data/state/georgia[/link]
– [link=https://covid19-projections.com/us-ga]https://covid19-projections.com/us-ga[/link]
Not to mention, what does that have to do with the stats I provided? Any coherent response to why Georgia doesn’t have 2, 5, 10 times more deaths than other states if masks and lockdowns work? Any coherent response of why they should do anything besides maybe some social distancing?These same questions apply to other states as well, I’m just using Georgia as an example since the media set it up to fail and they have been the most useful test case of early re-opening, no mask mandate, etc.
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Georgia has more cases and death per capita than Germany, and are currently in the worst of their outbreak thus far
Yeah theyre doing a bang up job over there
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A TV sitcom episode.
If only.
Trump does not know how to read charts and graphs or the data behind them.
[link=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/veep-team-weighs-trump-axios-interview-comparisons-1305844]https://www.hollywoodrepo…ew-comparisons-1305844[/link] -
Quote from AngryBirds
Georgia has more cases and death per capita than Germany, and are currently in the worst of their outbreak thus far
Yeah theyre doing a bang up job over there
You could maybe try to answer the questions I asked? They have a lower rate than most of the rest of the Europe if that’s what you’re into.
Utah, Maine, Vermont, Oregon, West Virginia, Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, and Hawaii all each have less than Germany since that’s your favorite country to cherry pick. I can cherry pick states too.
The point was why is it even close giving the different measures taken? Why doesn’t Georgia have the most cases in the US? Why not 10x more than Germany since you love them? Why not 100x? I’m asking for thoughts and theories. -
How bout wait until Georgia has their outbreak under control before comparing discussing what they did right?
Theyre currently on an upward trajectory of death and still near peak daily cases.
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The only people that are talking about who did it right and who did it wrong are those that have a political agenda. Those with a scientific approach don’t pass judgment. They just observe and analyze then make predictions and develop strategies.
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Saving lives is not a political agenda.
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That’s not what you are doing in these forums. You are driving your political agenda. One can tell because your posts are filled with judgmental words that have no place in science.
This is the political forum so it’s expected here. I will be sure to point it out in the other forum. -
Quote from AngryBirds
How bout wait until Georgia has their outbreak under control before comparing discussing what they did right?
Theyre currently on an upward trajectory of death and still near peak daily cases.
I just linked you the data showing they are over the hump of cases and at their hospitalization/death plateau and will be coming down soon. Come on man. I feel like people don’t even read what I post and just reflexively disagree.
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I did? When did I do that? Must have been an “lol” toward a facetious statement about elderly or something.
I’m an evil, death-wishing, bottom of the class guy though so who knows, right? -
A real life episode of VEEP. Except VEEP could never make their President character that dumb for easy laughs.
[link=https://twitter.com/brendanmc84/status/1290553066001965056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1290709599507513346%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Farts-entertainment%2F2020%2F08%2F04%2Fveep-trump-axios-interview-jonathan-swan-david-mandel%2F]https://twitter.com/brendanmc84/status/1290553066001965056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1290709599507513346%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Farts-entertainment%2F2020%2F08%2F04%2Fveep-trump-axios-interview-jonathan-swan-david-mandel%2F[/link]Adding the @VeepHBO credits/music to the @axios / @jonathanvswan Trump interview just makes sense pic.twitter.com/wtMBiBcZ3S
— brendan mcsomething (@brendanmc84) August 4, 2020
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We are talking about 160,000 deaths. That is science. The science proved that those number could have been mitigated down, that the US has the worst record of all in the world for addressing COVID and deaths. That is a rejection of science.
I think history will judge that in not so good terms. But then history and facts have a political agenda don’t they.
I know, noticing so many deaths & believing that many could have been prevented is a political agenda.-
Im coming to the conclusion that there is a group of people who will only believe what they want to believe no matter what and they feel that is some sort of virtue
160,000 deaths. Just the flu because a guy on Facebook said it was a liberal hoax
They aint gonna tell me what to do
I have my constitutional Raaatz
No argument or set of facts will convince them otherwise
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Everyone is lying to them and they alone know the truth
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Quote from Frumious
We are talking about 160,000 deaths. That is science. The science proved that those number could have been mitigated down, that the US has the worst record of all in the world for addressing COVID and deaths. That is a rejection of science.
I think history will judge that in not so good terms. But then history and facts have a political agenda don’t they.
I know, noticing so many deaths & believing that many could have been prevented is a political agenda.
The US falls in line with most places in the world. Not the best. Not the worst.
As previously stated, you can type out number (160,000) but you never give any context.
Covid deaths – 160,000
Influenza/pneumonia deaths per year (not just one pandemic, but every single year) – 50-55,000
US population – 330,000,000
US deaths per year – 2,800,000
If you fall into the “not one death from covid” camp then you must accept an extreme risk mitigation society and you must logically follow other similar positions across society such as masks and social distancing for every influenza season, mandatory vaccines for all citizens, making alcohol and tobacco smoking illegal, not allowing cars to drive more than 30 miles/hr, banning sugary sodas and high carb foods, mandating a BMI limit for citizens, etc. etc. because those are the levels of risk mitigation you are supporting with covid.-
Banning high carb foods might just save more lives than COVID mitigation. It sure would save a lot of money in health care costs. Add in a BMI limitation and we really have something. Imagine the lives and money saved.
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It would be a lot more than 160,000, that’s for sure.
Total ban on any sugary soda. Fat and carb restrictions on all foods. Americans must maintain a BMI under 35 or they will be fined.
What do you think, Frumi? These things would save way more lives.-
Quote from Cubsfan10
It would be a lot more than 160,000, that’s for sure.
Total ban on any sugary soda. Fat and carb restrictions on all foods. Americans must maintain a BMI under 35 or they will be fined.
What do you think, Frumi? These things would save way more lives.
OK, so let’s see if I have this right, instead of a simple thing like wearing masks and social distancing that have been proven to be highly effective in mitigating the virus, you want to pass major Congressional legislation that would ban sodas sweetened with sugar, somehow restrict calories in fat and carbs and federally mandate an enforced BMI of 35 or less.
But voluntarily wearing masks & social distancing is too much to ask?
Your solution, if serious is idiotic. So idiotic that you can’t believe what you are proposing so you are merely trolling. Unless you can explain how McConnell and Republicans would jump on board of your dietary restrictions and BMI mandate.
But a mask is over-reaching government tyranny.
As for how your “solution” would save lives, explain how it would save lives in the immediate term. like right now not 5 years out.-
Is Frumi suggesting the only mitigation we need now is mask wearing? Excellent. That is something I can get behind.
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Its sorta funny
ThoughIts nothing just the flu or a hoax
But we shut the country down 70% of people are wearing masks the federal government is spending trillions in stimulus and trillion to produce vaccines that havent been fully vetted yet
But this is all a big nothing
Someone is lying to a lot of people
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That’s what it sounds like to me.
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Uh oh. Looks like a post has been deleted. Time to look for the little face next to Dr. Fager.
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#Cancelled
Who is next? -
Im curious what data you people are looking at it.
Were on par with the rest of the world?
Um, no, most of the world has this virus under control.
Death will slow down soon?
Sure, maybe if I wish upon a Star super super hard it will Change the fact that 1000+ Americans are dying a day
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[link=https://covid19-projections.com/estimating-true-infections/]https://covid19-projectio…ating-true-infections/[/link]
RSF just shared this in the science forum.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
That’s what it sounds like to me.
I am perfectly willing to support your and ADHD’s idea of how to handle COVID by calling McConnell & Trump to mandate a BMI of 35 or less with fines effective immediately and ban sugared drinks and whatever nonsense you 2 believe will address the rising infections and death rates of COVID in the US.
What’s the matter? It was a troll idea never meant for anything but the BS list?-
CF, did you notice that RSF posted a link to Youyang Gu’s data analysis that shows an EFR of .025% and an extinguish point between 10% and 35% infected?
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Quote from Frumious
Quote from Cubsfan10
That’s what it sounds like to me.
I am perfectly willing to support your and ADHD’s idea of how to handle COVID by calling McConnell & Trump to mandate a BMI of 35 or less with fines effective immediately and ban sugared drinks and whatever nonsense you 2 believe will address the rising infections and death rates of COVID in the US.
What’s the matter? It was a troll idea never meant for anything but the BS list?
No, it’s actually the level of policy you would have to logically accept at this point if you’re determined to keep the same level of risk mitigation.
How about banning alcohol? Tobacco smoking?
Is it all just about covid deaths?
I know you’re not going to address this as you never do but just think about your own internal consistency of what we have done as a society for covid and are continuing to do for covid vs. the risk of these other societal ills and what we are doing for those.-
Interesting you bring up
SmokingDoes anyone remember the outrage when smoking was banned in public places and restaurants
It was their right to smoke. Evil liberals taking away their Raaatz under the constitution
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Ha, yeah what do you think about banning smoking?
Secondhand smoke kills an average of 40,000 Americans each year. You should probably support banning it, right?
Smoking-related deaths are 480,000/year. You should probably support banning it, right?
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Quote from Cubsfan10
No, it’s actually the level of policy you would have to logically accept at this point if you’re determined to keep the same level of risk mitigation.
How about banning alcohol? Tobacco smoking?
Is it all just about covid deaths?
I know you’re not going to address this as you never do but just think about your own internal consistency of what we have done as a society for covid and are continuing to do for covid vs. the risk of these other societal ills and what we are doing for those.
We’ve already tried to ban alcohol & that didn’t work out so well. Or don;t you know your history?
If you think banning tobacco is a COVID solution, go for it, call Trump & McConnell with those additional proposals. I’m sure you will impress them with your proposals. Donald might appoint you as the Czar of BMI & sugar & tobacco enforcement. Right up there with Pence on TV. Birx can make faces behind your back as she hears your proposals.
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I dont smoke
Its not someones right to make me smell their smoke
Ands its not your tight to make me sick
Similarities
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Second hand smoke deaths are literally the perfect analogy for rationale in the public health measures taken for Covid.
Couldnt have said it better myself. Bravo
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Quote from AngryBirds
Second hand smoke deaths are literally the perfect analogy for rationale in the public health measures taken for Covid.
Exactly.
It is when individual behaviors can cause significant health effects on others that it becomes reasonable to curtail some individual freedoms to promote public health.
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Quote from AngryBirds
Second hand smoke deaths are literally the perfect analogy for rationale in the public health measures taken for Covid.
Couldnt have said it better myself. Bravo
What about banning smoking itself?
What about marijuana and alcohol due to DWI deaths?
Also, stopping a few people who make a choice to do something (smoking inside) is a lot different than making all people to do something (wear masks). The closest analogy would be requiring all people to get vaccinated for the flu to work at a hospital. Even that though is not quite right since it doesn’t affect the person all the time in public and vaccines have been proven directly to prevent disease while masks have not been directly proven to affect covid, only that they have a theoretical benefit of stopping particles.
As I have mentioned before, if masks were the key, then places who don’t require them would have 5, 10, 15, etc. times as many cases and deaths and they don’t. If masks were the key, then deaths and cases would correlate to the timing of mask mandates – they don’t.
I think in the end, it makes sense that they help a little bit and some modelers have tried to factor it in…it’s perhaps maybe 5%? Is that enough to force everyone to wear one all the time? That’s the level of extreme risk mitigation I’m talking about – not to mention the school closings, business restrictions, etc. that are even more risk averse. Those are certainly in line with alcohol and tobacco bans as well as fining businesses for foods they sell, etc.
Where would you all like it to end?-
OMFG!
You are just a treasure chest of irrelevant tangential nothings, arent you.
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Yea Im not even sure how to respond to that.
You acknowledge masks probably help at least a little bit
So were in agreement again.
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Just because you guys cant make logical connections doesnt mean you should try to disregard what I’m saying. Do you not understand the concept of analagous societal risk mitigation strategies?
Also, no one knows if they work. We think they might. Modeling in my home state of Illinois days 8000 dead without masks and 8200 with masks. Is 200 people worth a mask mandate? What about a voluntary one?
I wont comment on masks anymore but do you guys just blindly follow everything your political party tells you to do? Don’t even answer.. just think about that for awhile and really look into all of the stats about this pandemic, masks, shutdowns, school closings, etc and see if you can form your own thoughts. Ask yourself if you would be responding differently if Biden was president and did the exact same things as trump.
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You think this is just a massive worldwide troll job to scratch peoples faces?
To upend the lipstick industry?
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Obviously. Thanks for trying to expand your worldview.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Just because you guys cant make logical connections doesnt mean you should try to disregard what I’m saying. Do you not understand the concept of analagous societal risk mitigation strategies?
AH, Pepe Silvia stuff. Explains eveything.
[link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nTpsv9PNqo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nTpsv9PNqo[/link]-
I’ll take that as a no.
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Take it as mitigation is a good thing to keep down COVID infections and deaths.
“Also, no one knows if they work. We think they might. Modeling in my home state of Illinois days 8000 dead without masks and 8200 with masks. Is 200 people worth a mask mandate? What about a voluntary one? “
Links for this statement. Seems pulled out of dark recesses. This sound like you are repeating nonsense like wearing masks “recycles” the virus making you sick.-
Looks like they changed it (pushed the date out further) since I last looked a week or so ago.
Its 9950 vs. 8500 now. [link=https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/illinois]https://covid19.healthdat…es-of-america/illinois[/link]
I don’t even know what you’re talking about with your “recycles” comment. -
Uh, I’m confused. Did I miss something? Your graphs sure do look like masks are mitigating deaths and infections, not the other way around as you stated.
[link=https://www.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/news/your-mask-cuts-own-risk-65-percent]https://www.ucdavis.edu/c…ts-own-risk-65-percent[/link] -
I didn’t say it was the other way around. I asked a question if 200 (now 1500) deaths were worth a mask mandate for a state of 12,670,000 people. Then I asked if voluntary masks would be sufficient.
Also, those masks studies are all the same – they test particles and infer. There’s no study or data to actually show that it stops covid at all. The only thing we know is that it gets to about 20% infection rate and then it goes way way down.
If masks truly stopped 65% of all infections then why don’t places without mask mandates have the most cases and deaths? 65% increase in transmission would result in orders of magnitude higher cases and deaths if that was true. We aren’t seeing that.
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This follows the same logic as the people who claimed human children were somehow not capable of spreading Covid while they were locked down at home
WHERE IS THE DATA THAT SHOWS KIDS CAN TRANSMIT THIS?
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Quote from Cubsfan10
If masks truly stopped 65% of all infections then why don’t places without mask mandates have the most cases and deaths? 65% increase in transmission would result in orders of magnitude higher cases and deaths if that was true. We aren’t seeing that.
they do have the most, right? Mississippi just finally did one of the 4th. Florida doesn’t have one. Georgia’s governor tried to forbid mandates. The area of the country that seems to be the hotbed is the southeast.
it seems a combination of things can possibly keep people safer. Wear a mask, socially distance, don’t touch your eyes/mouth/nose, wash your hands well.
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The question to ask isn’t really about mask “mandate” yes or not … it would be about population mask compliance rates.
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Quote from dergon
The question to ask isn’t really about mask “mandate” yes or not … it would be about population mask compliance rates.
But dont worry, ADHD & Cubsfan have the EZ solution, mandate BMI<35 & outlaw manufacture of sugary drinks. These are not examples of gubmint overreach & voluntary compliance is sure to be high; its not like tyrannical government mask requests.
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Quote from Frumious
But dont worry, ADHD & Cubsfan have the EZ solution, mandate BMI<35 & outlaw manufacture of sugary drinks. These are not examples of gubmint overreach & voluntary compliance is sure to be high; its not like tyrannical government mask requests.
Classic Frumi. No insight.
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You must know Pepe Silvia:
[link]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nTpsv9PNqo[/link]
