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Imaging societies weigh in on racial injustice
The ISMRM went much further. ” We condemn the murders of Mr. Floyd, Ms. Taylor and Mr. Arbery, and we encourage understanding of the rage that has precipitated this outpouring on the streets of most major cities. ”
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The whole email:
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]Dear ISMRM Community,[/size][/font][font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]As the President and Equity Officer of this community, we are writing because of the recent murders of George Floyd in Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA, Breonna Taylor in Louisville, Kentucky, USA, and Ahmaud Arbery in Brunswick, Georgia, USA, and the resulting protests and unrest. We cannot remain silent. In the words of Albert Einstein, The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]The ISMRM is an inclusive collaborative global community which promotes health and has zero tolerance for discrimination, and we know each one of you strives for a world in which all are safe and treated with dignity and respect. We condemn the murders of Mr. Floyd, Ms. Taylor and Mr. Arbery, and we encourage understanding of the rage that has precipitated this outpouring on the streets of most major cities. We support peaceful protest understanding it is the rightful expression of outrage over social injustice; however, we also encourage cessation of violence before more people are hurt or killed. [/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]We have committed to ensuring a safe environment for our collaborative community to interact in support of scientific and clinical discovery. We must further commit to meet our responsibilities as global citizens, supporting efforts to promote social justice. [/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]Sincerely,[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]Lawrence L. Wald, Ph.D., ISMRM President[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]Elizabeth Morris, M.D., F.A.C.R., ISMRM Equity Officer[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]International Society for Magnetic Resonance in Medicine (ISMRM)[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]One Concord Center[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]2300 Clayton Road, Suite 620[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]Concord, CA 94520 USA[/size][/font]
[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][size=”2″]T: +1 (510) 841-1899 F: +1 (510) 841-2340[/size][/font]
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[shakes head]
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Doctors by taking a knee in public are doing harm by bringing overt leftist politics into the hospital. Its a direct consent of the anarchy during a pandemic.
The victim in recent public protest actions was America, being held hostage while institutions were looted, burned, destroyed. Social distancing and PPE be damned en masse without nary a criticism from democrat officials or the media. The victims included the police. The thin blue line has been summarily attacked, razed with individual members targeted and killedand for what end-anarchy and wanton damage? Thats what it looks like from here.
What will it take before guilt-driven white collar appeasement/kneeling and its direct embrace of lawlessness stops ?! A major American city including city hall and central police precincts controlled by an armed warlord? Thats already happening.
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Orange County schools will require ethnic studies for graduation: [link=https://voiceofoc.org/2020/06/santa-ana-unified-school-district-creates-ethnic-studies-requirement-in-wake-of-george-floyd-protests/]https://voiceofoc.org/2020/06/santa-ana-unified-school-district-creates-ethnic-studies-requirement-in-wake-of-george-floyd-protests/[/link]
Will medical schools eventually follow? How about a CME requirement for practicing physicians?-
I actually thought that was already a requirement in California. Ha. Can’t learn government/civics though! Too useful!
There should be a mandated year-long course every year of high school that’s called “Being an adult” and they should only learn relevant life stuff in that class: taxes, finance, government, etc.
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What about Justine Diamond?
Oh, wait, never mind. She was just a white woman murdered by a Somali quota hire, so no justice for her….-
Quote from ExNavyDoc
What about Justine Diamond?
Oh, wait, never mind. She was just a white woman murdered by a Somali quota hire, so no justice for her….Not quite true, the cop who shot her, that “Somali quota hire,” Mohamed Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter and got 12-1/2 years. So frankly, if Derek Chauvin got convicted of the same with the same sentence as that “Somali quota hire,” along with his fellow officers who participated in at best doing nothing but joking were also convicted according to their culpability, I would think justice was served.
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Maybe. We’ll see.
But Ms. Diamond and Mr. George are still both dead, are they not?
I find the selective memory of the ISMRM off-putting, to say the least.
These professional societies should stick to their knitting. Nothing is served by putting out these self-serving lachrymose statements. It’s the equivalent of a bird-watching club weighing in on immigration policy. Idiotic.-
Well, perhaps the support is mere posing but I find the support by the public and institutions for a change, very refreshing. It sure beats the past keeping ones head in the sand pose. Or perhaps the 3 monkeys, “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” a far as criticizing the actions of police are concerned.
About time the police got their short hairs ripped out by the handfuls and were made accountable for a change instead of immunity regardless how egregious and indefensible their actions. “Not all cops” are bad but where are these “good cops” when civilians are murdered on camera by fellow officers and then the police report s are fabricated lies?
The system has to stop supporting murderers and corruption.-
This is not necessary. The authors are preaching to the choir. So look at us, we , the ISMRM, are hip, we are woke and we have to let you know we are in case you didn’t know that . By being a member you too are also hip and woke , in addition to being an MRI expert. So don’t worry , if anyone challenges you , you are a member.
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Quote from MODIOLUS
This is not necessary. The authors are preaching to the choir. So look at us, we , the ISMRM, are hip, we are woke and we have to let you know we are in case you didn’t know that . By being a member you too are also hip and woke , in addition to being an MRI expert. So don’t worry , if anyone challenges you , you are a member.
The mob will still break your windows and burn your car. Because you know ‘racial justice’.
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Quote from fw
Quote from MODIOLUS
This is not necessary. The authors are preaching to the choir. So look at us, we , the ISMRM, are hip, we are woke and we have to let you know we are in case you didn’t know that . By being a member you too are also hip and woke , in addition to being an MRI expert. So don’t worry , if anyone challenges you , you are a member.
The mob will still break your windows and burn your car. Because you know ‘racial justice’.
Race is often involved but the real problem is the police and their training, belief and actions that they might be in Falluja every minute of the day when encountering civilians.
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Quote from Frumious
Quote from fw
Quote from MODIOLUS
This is not necessary. The authors are preaching to the choir. So look at us, we , the ISMRM, are hip, we are woke and we have to let you know we are in case you didn’t know that . By being a member you too are also hip and woke , in addition to being an MRI expert. So don’t worry , if anyone challenges you , you are a member.
The mob will still break your windows and burn your car. Because you know ‘racial justice’.
Race is often involved but the real problem is the police and their training, belief and actions that they might be in Falluja every minute of the day when encountering civilians.
I knew we could find some common ground Frumious. The attitude must be addressed before the confrontation not during.
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Like I said, speaking out against killing might be considered hip and “woke” in some circles but I’ll take that over everyone remaining quiet while these killings go on.
Whether said by Mill or Burke and whichever variation, the truth still is that,
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
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Quote from Frumious
About time the police got their short hairs ripped out by the handfuls and were made accountable for a change instead of immunity regardless how egregious and indefensible their actions. “Not all cops” are bad but where are these “good cops” when civilians are murdered on camera by fellow officers and then the police report s are fabricated lies?
The system has to stop supporting murderers and corruption.
We are in agreement here, absolutely.
My larger point is that these professional orgs, who are supposedly looking out for our interests, are doing nothing of the sort. There is a quote, which I cannot find at the moment alas, that basically states that the more a local government spends its time on “social justice” quackery such as “climate change”, the more likely that community will find itself with deteriorating roads, lackluster garbage collection, and indifferent policing.
The same holds true with organizations like the ACR. They spend their time virtue-signaling rather than focusing on what should be their core mission of supporting radiologists. Instead, the leadership looks out for itself and its own interests. Does anybody still believe the ACR gives a rat’s behind about the poor schmuck rad slaving away in the trenches for some venture-capital outfit? I don’t, which is one of the many reasons I dropped my membership.
It’s disheartening, really. But as the saying goes, “No one is coming. We are on our own.”-
Way to throw climate change in there. Good one.
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I know for a fact that all the liberal radiologists are complete phonies. Would never trust a doctor that sympathizes with antifa, especially when he brags about his $5million house(after 1 shot of whiskey).
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Really happy to read this.
The street where I live with my family was attacked by the riots during the very first protest that happened in my state. I am so glad that they are asking me to try to understand rage which manifested in form of attempted break in and arson in the very place I am living.
Some of these politically correct statements are so shallow. There is much more happening here than just reaction from perceived racism.
Who the heck are these ismrm guys anyways?
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I think this was a bad idea. ISMRM is not a political org. No one was awaiting their input.
Having been in court cases and on juries, everything is always crystal clear until you hear the other side of the story, and that story has not yet been widely disseminated.
There is a very high likelihood that this letter does not age well.
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People have lost their minds. Agree with most of the dissenting posts above.
Also, I think, sometimes, it’s good to pause and look at all possible angles of this situation.
Would this atrocity have happened to Mr. Floyd had he not resisted arrest?
Was this really racially motivated? How do we know? If so, then why in the world would you let so many people film it on their phones?
Perhaps this cop was just an idiot and deserves what is coming to him, but people need to check their emotions a bit before automatically jumping on the ‘race card’ every time this happens.
Not everything is motivated by race.
And don’t give me the systemic racism bit…I’m tired of that BS.
Truly sorry for what happened to Mr. Floyd, though. Nobody deserves to die like that.
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Very much wish this hadnt happened. Seemed like a good person given the response of his family.
After reading the police report and complaint against the officers as well as the autopsy report, this reads much more like a badly managed fentanyl overdose rather than a malevolent action.
I encourage folks to read the history of what happened.
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It was inappropriate for the ACR to issue their statement. Why did they even feel it was appropriate and needed? If they want to promote social justice and start taking progressive positions, count me out of their membership. May as well advocate for higher police pay and training while they are at it.
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George Floyd was a criminal high on drugs, but extrajudicial killings are never ok. Everyone deserves a fair trial.
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The ACR has no business commenting on the social injustice. It is not their mission. If they enter the political arena, radiologists will leave in droves. If the ACR is going to play this game, how about a statement in support of free markets and in the support of police men and women?
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The new, best idea courtesy of the Left – [link=https://www.vox.com/2020/6/3/21276824/defund-police-divest-explainer]https://www.vox.com/2020/…olice-divest-explainer[/link]
It would be interesting to see it happen and then cities replace the police with private contractors. Do liberals/lefties prefer government paid municipal workers or privately paid corporations and their employees, I forget?
I’m just all confused on this one…are we supposed to love the police for arresting citizens trying to go to the park without masks and open their own businesses or are we supposed to hate the police because one (or I guess, four) bad cops did a terrible thing? Tell me what to think Vox/MSNBC/CNN/Mother Jones/NY Times/WashPost!-
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[link=https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf]https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf[/link]
Autopsy
Drugs, meth, fentanyl, THC, 90% RCA, 75% x 3 LAD etc, severe-
MSK/SW,
Bingo. Now look at the complaint against the officers. It details how they were discussing how to hold him in order to save Floyds life in his delirious state from what appears to be the massive dose of fentanyl in his system.
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Quote from radgrinder
MSK/SW,
Bingo. Now look at the complaint against the officers. It details how they were discussing how to hold him in order to save Floyds life in his delirious state from what appears to be the massive dose of fentanyl in his system.
If he was unconscious from fentanyl, he wouldn’t have been pleading with them not to kill him.
Bull-shit.
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Quote from MSK/SW
[link=https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf]https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf[/link]
Autopsy
Drugs, meth, fentanyl, THC, 90% RCA, 75% x 3 LAD etc, severeThe guy testing positive for corona is straight out of a TV show.
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According to the CDC guidelines, Mr. Floyd should be recorded as a COVID death. Was his death certificate published?
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Quote from avocado
Quote from MSK/SW
[link=https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf]https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf[/link]
Autopsy
Drugs, meth, fentanyl, THC, 90% RCA, 75% x 3 LAD etc, severeThe guy testing positive for corona is straight out of a TV show.
Yup, this is what you get from clown world.
Honk honk.
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Quote from MSK/SW
[link=https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf]https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf[/link]
Autopsy
Drugs, meth, fentanyl, THC, 90% RCA, 75% x 3 LAD etc, severe
Nobody argues that Mr Floyd was a particularly valuable member of society or that he didn’t commit multiple criminal acts that day. The question is how the police treated him once he was in custody as from the second the cuffs go on, the detainee is 100% the responsibility of the arresting officer.
If you watch the entire footage, not just the last 8 minutes it is pretty clear that Chauvin was just tired of the guy fighting with him.-
Fw,
I didnt say unconscious. I said delirious. There is a difference.
Read the full criminal complaint.
Just read it. If one doesnt know the story then one is just operating off political prejudice. And thats no way to pursue justice.
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Quote from fw
Quote from MSK/SW
[link=https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf]https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf[/link]
Autopsy
Drugs, meth, fentanyl, THC, 90% RCA, 75% x 3 LAD etc, severeNobody argues that Mr Floyd was a particularly valuable member of society or that he didn’t commit multiple criminal acts that day. The question is how the police treated him once he was in custody as from the second the cuffs go on, the detainee is 100% the responsibility of the arresting officer.
If you watch the entire footage, not just the last 8 minutes it is pretty clear that Chauvin was just tired of the guy fighting with him.
There are (as usual) numerous other things going on socially, physiologically, and policy wise in this case as well. Apart from the fact that it is a regional or local issue, again rush to judgment before all facts are in.
I’m sorry, one of the facts will be that the method employed, regardless of how you feel about it, was not abnormal or against Minne policy — otherwise he wouldn’t have done it in front of everyone, being video’d, knowingly, etc.
Murder 2 is a joke and when seen in its entirety, again, this case is more propaganda than it is tragedy (which it still is, whenever a human dies that is the case).-
Contrary to what more conservative opinions on this thread or forum may suggest, only ~20% of America opposes the protests. Most of America agrees on this issue now, which is why major societies can make bold statements.
[link=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-americans-feel-about-george-floyds-death-and-the-protests/]https://fivethirtyeight.c…eath-and-the-protests/[/link]
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ARRS issued a statement in the past couple days.
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Watching that video, I thought he was a senior officer showing the other officers how to subdue someone. It seemed so non chalant.
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Fastest flip-flop ever –
22 hours ago:
[b]Starbucks bans employees from wearing anything in support of Black Lives Matter
[/b][link=https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/502252-starbucks-bans-employees-from-wearing-anything-in-support-of-black-lives]https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/502252-starbucks-bans-employees-from-wearing-anything-in-support-of-black-lives[/link]36 minutes ago:
[link=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/12/starbucks-to-allow-baristas-to-wear-black-lives-matter-attire-and-accessories-after-backlash.html]https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/12/starbucks-to-allow-baristas-to-wear-black-lives-matter-attire-and-accessories-after-backlash.html
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[h1]Starbucks to allow baristas to wear Black Lives Matter attire and accessories after social media backlash[/h1] -
My brother works at an Amazon distribution center. Amazons policy is… No Offensive, Political, religious or racial statement clothing while on shift. There is no exceptions as they promote a neutral working environment for all. However, there are some employees that are wearing… No Justice / No Peace; BLM on their own personal facemasks. Due to Covid, Everyone has to where one. Amazon provides them if you don’t bring yours.
He is going to wear his Blue Lives Matter face masks today in honor of our brother in law, Sister, Nephew and 2 cousins that are in law enforcement throughout the country. Curious to see what they say.
You can’t have it both ways. -
You and I don’t agree on much, but the “you can’t have it both ways” things I am with you on.
We’re having a similar issue at our yacht club. A couple of Trump flags flying from masts and people have complained. But others take no issue with big rainbow pride flags.
It’s all or nothing.
I personally favor something similar to the policy you note for Amazon…. none of the above. -
Quote from dergon
Fastest flip-flop ever –
They did the same maneuver
– when it came to throwing one of their store managers under the bus for enforcing company policy.
– when open carriers decided to make their stores a focus of their advocacy.Spineless corporate weasels.
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[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/550805-three-georgia-men-charged-with-federal-hate-crimes-over-ahmaud-arberys]Three Georgia men charged with federal hate crimes over Ahmaud Arbery’s death[/link]
A federal grand jury has charged Travis McMichael, his father Gregory McMichael and William Roddie Bryan with one count of interference of civil rights and one count of attempted kidnapping, prosecutors [link=https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdga/pr/three-georgia-men-charged-federal-hate-crimes-and-attempted-kidnapping-connection-death]said Wednesday[/link].
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The federal indictment accuses the men of using force and threatening to intimidate and interfere with Arberys right to use a public street when they chased Arbery through the street in Bryans truck, cut off his route and threatened him. The second count alleges that Bryan joined the chase and used his truck during the encounter.
The indictment also accuses the men of attempting to kidnap Artery by chasing him down in an attempt to restrain him and prevent his escape. It further accuses Travis McMichael of discharging is .357 Magnum revolver.
[/QUOTE]
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[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/552737-kemp-signs-bill-repealing-citizens-arrest-law-after-ahmaud-arbery]Kemp signs bill repealing citizen’s arrest law after Ahmaud Arbery shooting[/link]
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Quote from 67ED5CC042435
I am glad he and other leaders in our field are outright condemning the murders. Almost every major leader in the US has, except Dolan.
Radiology is an inclusive field, and we serve a diversity of patients.
These kind of statements are exemplary of the problem at hand. Totally non sequitir. We serve patients and address medical issues. Should we put out a message about how baseball should come back because some of our patients are missing out on their favorite pastime for no good reason? Breathtakingly stupid and unnecessary. What’s worse, it presumes thousands of things in its virtue signalling, most of which are false.-
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Quote from 67ED5CC042435
Quote from Castlevania
….., it presumes thousands of things in its virtue signalling, most of which are false.
Glad to know Castlevania thinks I am breathtakingly stupid for celebrating inclusiveness in Radiology.
There ought to be a buzzer that goes off every time someone uses the term ‘virtue signaling’.
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I never thought I would see the day that liberals could go after public sector unions of any type. Its not just the police union(s) that needs reformed…
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WHy does the iSMRMSMRSMS have an equity officer? Are magnets racist?
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Quote from knightrider
WHy does the iSMRMSMRSMS have an equity officer? Are magnets racist?
If tech starts to buy up medicine they would totally have a Chief Equity Officer for each provider. You’ll have to do a bias training every month, and file a quarterly report on your racial equity performance.
It’s a big thing they talk about at Google all the time. [link=https://research.google/pubs/pub48111/]https://research.google/pubs/pub48111/[/link]-
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Quote from 67ED5CC042435
Why not just put him in the cop car or if suspected he was overdosed an ambulance? Its not like cops dont regularly interact with belligerent individuals who are drunk or high or both.
They had him in the cop car but he was kicking and fighting with them. So they dragged him back out and ‘calmed him down’.
As so often, what we are being shown is the very tail end of a longer event.
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A speculative read of the tox report is of a person who wanted to avoid being arrested in possession of drugs, swallowed what he had as the police walked up, and then rapidly became altered as the massive drug cocktail took hold.
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Quote from radgrinder
A speculative read of the tox report is of a person who wanted to avoid being arrested in possession of drugs, swallowed what he had as the police walked up, and then rapidly became altered as the massive drug cocktail took hold.
Hey, whatever it takes to smear the guy and exonerate the cop.
This is from the autopsy you posted above:
[i]GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT: The esophagus is intact and lined by smooth, gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains approximately 450 mL of dark brown fluid with innumerable soft fragments of gray-white food particulate matter resembling bread. The gastric wall is intact. The duodenum, loops of small bowel, and colon are unremarkable. The appendix is present.[/i]
He died within minutes of his confrontation with the police. No, he didn’t swallow his drug stash.[i]
[/i]-
Quote from fw
Quote from radgrinder
A speculative read of the tox report is of a person who wanted to avoid being arrested in possession of drugs, swallowed what he had as the police walked up, and then rapidly became altered as the massive drug cocktail took hold.
Hey, whatever it takes to smear the guy and exonerate the cop.
This is from the autopsy you posted above:
[i]GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT: The esophagus is intact and lined by smooth, gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains approximately 450 mL of dark brown fluid with innumerable soft fragments of gray-white food particulate matter resembling bread. The gastric wall is intact. The duodenum, loops of small bowel, and colon are unremarkable. The appendix is present.[/i]
He died within minutes of his confrontation with the police. No, he didn’t swallow his drug stash.[i]
[/i]
The autopsy report showed no bruising at the neck.
Fentanyl can kill in doses as low as 3 ng/mL. Typical 100 mcg patch results in levels of 1.9-3.8. He was at 11 ng/mL.
Fentanyl toxicity can result in [b]severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death.[/b]
Fentanyl 11 ng/mL
Fentanyl (Duragesic®; Sublimaze®) – Hospital Blood: Fentanyl is a DEA Schedule II synthetic morphine substitute anesthetic/analgesic. It is reported to be 80 to 200 times as potent as morphine and has a rapid onset of action as well as addictive properties. It is reported that patients lost consciousness at mean plasma levels of fentanyl of 34 ng/mL when infused with 75 mcg/Kg over a 15 min period; peak plasma levels averaged 50 ng/mL.
After application of a fentanyl transdermal preparation (patch), serum fentanyl concentrations are reported to be in the following ranges within 24 hours:
25 mcg/hour patch: 0.3 – 1.2 ng/mL
50 mcg/hour patch: 0.6 – 1.8 ng/mL
75 mcg/hour patch: 1.1 – 2.6 ng/mL
100 mcg/hour patch: 1.9 – 3.8 ng/mL 9. NMS v.18.0
Following removal of the patch, serum fentanyl concentrations are reported to decrease with a mean elimination half-life of 17 hours (range, 13 to 22 hours). The mean peak plasma serum fentanyl concentration in adults given an 800 mcg oral transmucosal fentanyl preparation over 15 minutes is reported at 2.1 ng/mL (range, 1.4 – 3.0 ng/mL) at approximately 0.4 hours. [u][b]Signs associated with fentanyl toxicity include severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death. In fatalities from fentanyl, blood concentrations are variable and have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL.[/b][/u]
NECK: Layer by layer dissection of the anterior strap muscles of the neck discloses no areas of contusion or hemorrhage within the musculature. The thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone are intact. The larynx is lined by intact mucosa. The thyroid is symmetric and red-brown, without cystic or nodular change. The tongue is free of bite marks, hemorrhage, or other injuries. The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of hemorrhage.
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This isn’t where imaging societies should place any bets. They’re bad at this kind of thing and they’re going to lose.
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Quote from radgrinder
Fentanyl can kill in doses as low as 3 ng/mL. Typical 100 mcg patch results in levels of 1.9-3.8. He was at 11 ng/mL.
Fentanyl toxicity can result in [b]severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death.[/b]
Fentanyl 11 ng/mL
That level means nothing in a opiate addict. That’s for opiate naive surgical or pain patients. And again, if it was the fentanyl that caused him to stop breathing, it would have been 20min earlier when the cop walked up to his SUV.
That’s the kind of BS defense attorneys and their purchased expert witnesses make up.
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Defense attorneys will argue, not without evidence, that Floyd died not because of the application of unlawful force, but rather that it was his own resistance to lawful force, exacerbated by his documented medical conditions and drug use, that triggered a fatal heart attack. Fentanyl and methamphetamines can and often do bring about fatal arrhythmias even absent the type of exertions attributed to Floyd in the complaint. Yes, there came a point when Floyd ceased to struggle and should have been brought to a seated position. Was it this failure to follow what has for decades been standard police procedure that caused Floyds death, or did his struggling stop only when the fatal heart attack occurred? These are questions medical experts on both sides will testify about at trial, but for convictions the prosecutors must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin was the proximate cause of Floyds death and that the others assisted him in the act. In all my years as a police officer I have never seen the seeds of reasonable doubt planted in the very pages of a criminal complaint as they have been here.
As I wrote of Michael Slager four years ago, it is not a question of whether Chauvin and the others were right or wrong, but rather of how wrong they were. Murder is a serious charge that requires serious evidence. As things now stand, I dont think the prosecutors have it.
[link=https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/the-george-floyd-killing-a-police-officers-view/]https://www.nationalrevie…-police-officers-view/[/link]
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“I have never seen the seeds of reasonable doubt planted in the very pages of a criminal complaint as they have been here.”
Yeah. Fits my impression of everything thats publicly available.
Be ready for a second round of protests or riots.
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It will be hard for the defense team to argue that the position he was being held in did not atleast contribute to his death; obviously the drugs in his system may have made him more susceptible but that is irrelevant as far as Im concerned – he could have had severe sarcoid/ipf or any number of other issues that could have resulted in being in more danger. Its just gaslighting smear bull**** from one end of the political spectrum. The horror in that video from an optics POV may be the knee on the neck but that maneuver itself isnt the crime – the actions or lack thereof that followed that were the true horror.
Whether the cops intended to kill is a bit of a mixed bag- but as a first responder, once someone is taken into your custody their Health is your responsibility and at the bare minimum there is gross incompetence here that then becomes criminal incompetence from all of them for not assessing his status once unconscious nor performing basic lifesaving measures afterwards. if a surgeon accidentally nicked a carotid artery, and then proceeded to operate while willfully ignoring the arterial bleed while everyone in the OR around you is screaming at you to address the bleed, and the patient codes, and then dies and meanwhile the surgeon continues to do nothing for another 3 minutes, that surgeons going to jail for a good long time. -
Rozakk,
Good summary.
Thats why up-charging people is a bad idea. Manslaughter? Probably. Murder is much harder to prove due to the requirement of intent.
But if prosecutors go for murder, there is a much higher risk of being unsuccessful and the officer(s) being acquitted. Have to charge people appropriately.
Remember that you have only been shown what are the most controversial views of the case, because that is what attracts eyeballs and clicks.
The case is unlikely to be as straightforward as it may seem, and decent defense attorneys are likely to make mincemeat of the AG messing around with the charges.
Not to mix things up here, but if theres anything the pandemic has taught its that nothing is as cut and dried as it appears on first glance.
Evidence can be presented one way and things look like a lock, but scratch at the surface or look at things differently then how theyre initially framed for you to interpret.
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Fw,
Did you read the report? Mr Floyd said he couldnt breathe while he was standing up and they were trying to put him in the police car. This was before he had to be held on the ground.
He was reporting significant breathing problems while standing, and then sitting in the car. That was before any pressure was on his neck.
Murder requires malice aforethought. After reading the report, do you think that was present?
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Quote from radgrinder
Murder requires malice aforethought. After reading the report, do you think that was present?
It requires neither. He initially was charged under the ‘depraved mind’ third degree murder statute. Later this was upgraded to a 2nd degree unintentional murder charge under the felony murder concept (with the felony that of being assault in the third degree). Whether that is just grandstanding by comrade Ellison, I dont know. The complaint is pretty short, because the facts of the case are pretty straingtforward.
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Quote from 67ED5CC042435
If the officer was not kneeling on Floyds neck, Floyd would be alive today.
Yep. And that will be the legal burden of proof. “Significantly contributory”
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If we dont even know who ISMRM is, why do we care about their statement, much less be made uncomfortable or distressed by it? Must we be perturbed by statements made by random organizations weve never heard of?
If I dont know most of the people on this forum other than by their screen name, why should it bother me that they are bothered by a statement made by an organization theyve never heard of?
Hmmm.. nevermind.
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Quote from radgrinder
Fw,
I didnt say unconscious. I said delirious. There is a difference.
Read the full criminal complaint.
Just read it. If one doesnt know the story then one is just operating off political prejudice. And thats no way to pursue justice.
Is it your assertion that Mr Floyd died from ‘excited delirium’ rather than someone planting a knee on his neck for 8 minutes ?
Having given a fair amount of fentanyl in my professional life, if it kills you, it kills you right then and there, not after a 20 minute fight.
Btw. I fully expect that the 3 other cops will see themselves reinstated with back pay after all this is done and over with. Not because they are not callous a-holes who stood by as a man was killed, but because their union will get them back on the job. The ‘thin blue line’ at work. If anything good can come out of this, it needs to be the neutering of the public service unions. The disciplinary process should never be subordinate to a union contract. It should simply be a federal law that the disciplinary and dismissal process in a police department is not subject to union contract provisions. Doesn’t mean you should get arbitrarily fired because the chief doesn’t like your nose, but if a trial board has found that your conduct is not acceptable you should be gone.
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The left is trying to dump a load of guilt on whites for participating silently in nationwide systemic racism that has resulted in the deaths of innocent minorities and oppressed them economically. So because of your guilt, if you are white, you must make amends by agreeing to liberal policy.
Its nonsense and 55 years after the Great Society and trillions of dollars in Medicaid, rent subsidies, welfare, public housing, etc, it hasnt worked. -
The left is trying to dump a load of guilt on whites for participating silently in nationwide systemic racism that has resulted in the deaths of innocent minorities and oppressed them economically. So because of your guilt, if you are white, you must make amends by agreeing to liberal policy.
Its nonsense and 55 years after the Great Society and trillions of dollars in Medicaid, rent subsidies, welfare, public housing, etc, it hasnt worked.
The ACR is going down a road that will lead to a massive loss of membership.-
I knew we’d get some social justice warriors on here after that initial post. Works every time.
Like a moth to a flame…
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How about we all just see how this plays out in the courts.
There are, obviously, many more factors in this case than I originally knew about.
That toxicology report is very interesting.
A good defense attorney will have a field day with that, especially given the charges that seem to keep getting ratcheted up. Just sad (and a mess) all around.
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Quote from DOCDAWG
How about we all just see how this plays out in the courts.
That would be the logical thing to do. Let our system work the way it is supposed. Here is the problem. The way it is set up now the police officer has been up-charged to try and placate the mob. This however will make it much harder to reach a guilty verdict, especially with the new evidence coming out. Now what? Well when the jury rightfully returns a not guilty verdict for the excessive charge of murder in the 2nd degree we will see more violent mob rule. You can almost envision a conspiracy theory that this is what the protestors want. The lack of a conviction gives them the power to destroy with conviction.
I agree that it was a ridiculous move for that officer to put his knee on Mr. George’s neck. I really wish he had not done that. I wish officers were trained ahead of time to avoid situations like this. I hope something good comes out of where we are now. It can if we take the time to understand ourselves better.-
Quote from Thread Enhancer
Quote from DOCDAWG
How about we all just see how this plays out in the courts.
That would be the logical thing to do. Let our system work the way it is supposed. Here is the problem. The way it is set up now the police officer has been up-charged to make try and placate the mob. This however will make it much harder to reach a guilty verdict, especially with the new evidence coming out. Now what? Well when the jury rightfully returns a not guilty verdict for the excessive charge of murder in the 2nd degree we will see more violent mob rule. You can almost envision a conspiracy theory that this is what the protestors want. The lack of a conviction gives them the power to destroy with conviction.
I agree that it was a ridiculous move for that officer to put his knee on Mr. George’s neck. I really wish he had not done that. I wish officers were trained ahead of time to avoid situations like this. I hope something good comes out of where we are now. It can if we take the time to understand ourselves better.
Biden says the solution is to train cops to shoot people in the leg.-
I wonder if the impression one gets from reading these comments is representative – that as a whole, most radiologists see nothing wrong with the status quo at a historic time of nationwide protest against the treatment of African Americans at the hands of law enforcement?
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Quote from Flounce
I wonder if the impression one gets from reading these comments is representative – that as a whole, most radiologists see nothing wrong with the status quo at a historic time of nationwide protest against the treatment of African Americans at the hands of law enforcement?
to me it is more complicated than that
I don’t even see a case ( with facts and logic) laid out that there is a crisis. I am open to that view, I just want to see the case laid out with statistics etc. If there is so much racism I would think that, given a population of 300million plus and the ubiquity of cellphone use, much better/clear cut examples of racism could be put before the public. Instead we hear about someone being a jerk to a birdwatcher and IMO other borderline cases.
Also there is the question re even if there is racism, just how big a problem is it? Does it justify complete absorption by the country for weeks and the property damage etc. ARen’t there other problems just as important (child cancer, poverty, covid)? Every other race encounters racism and they seem to overcome it without it being their defining issue. I wonder if (in some cases) there is a confusion of cause and effect ie the lack of black community success causes people to view them with less esteem- not the reverse. As an aside I get the impression that many people find racists more vile than murderers.
I am not sure what exactly the protesters are demanding. My guess is that whatever comes out of this won’t be enough. I am sure the people in the 60’s , 70s could barely have imagined a black president. But ask black leaders today and they will only grudginly acknowledge progress. I feel like a ton of progress has been made and (anecdotally) I don’t know a single person who expresses animosity toward “people of color”. IMO it is the black communities move – THEY need to make their own lives better. I have my own problems haha.Probably there will be a lot of destruction and zero benefit will accrue to the black community because this issue accounts for such a small fraction of their troubles. Maybe more riots in a few years…. Energy would be better directed elsewhere. If I am right , then just going along with this viewpoint is destructive because it supports a huge misallocation of resources (used in the most general sense).
Then there is a demand that everyone gets on board with this viewpoint (which I find suspect). And if you don’t agree then you are a villain. Nobody likes being told what to think. This viewpoint is being rammed down everyones throat and god help you if you disagree. How about all these people being compelled to apologize. Is there any precedent out there for these apologies after a quick “education” (think Drew Brees)? I would be super interested in a historical parallel. None come to mind. -
Quote from illinois
I am not sure what exactly the protesters are demanding. My guess is that whatever comes out of this won’t be enough. I am sure the people in the 60’s , 70s could barely have imagined a black president. But ask black leaders today and they will only grudginly acknowledge progress.
What is interesting about that view is that it is not “just” black leaders who see insufficient progress. You can read on these pages on AM forums the beliefs by many conservative posters of the “failure” of Democratic efforts and reforms over decades to improve the lives of minority communities.
It can’t be both at the same time. You can’t have “how much is enough progress” while also proclaiming the failure of efforts to improve the lots of minorities. Yet many people live and believe in this contradictory view where the argument can change on a dime depending on who is asking & what is being asked.
As for having a black president, 2 questions, is that all there is to the answer, we’ve had a black president? And what is the nature of observing that we had a black president? Obama’s skin color or who he represented as president? I think Obama bent over backwards to show he was president, not just the black president or just representing black people.
In that about who the president represents, I feel like we have turned 180 degrees and got a white president who makes no effort about representing all Americans other than specious claims about “What have they got to lose?”
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Tend to agree w/ Illinois here.
I respect Flounce, often he is the voice of temperence and reason.
But, I do reject his view as stated above.
I may get this wrong, Flounce, but it seems to me that in essence you are saying what BLM and Antifa says, that if you do not support what they do and where they are going that we are racist.
I disagree.
What we are seeing here is the 1960’s Chinese Red Guard Cultural Revolution w/ racism and law enforcement and capitalism and order as the rallying cries. Let us say that racism exists in small segments of the country or in small segments of some police depts, and some are corrupt. Are all corrupt and racist? does this justify eliminating all police depts? no, I do not think so. Let us debate. Please avoid the racist tagging, not helpful. Let us debate, what would Marcus Aurelius do? -
Quote from Flounce
I wonder if the impression one gets from reading these comments is representative – that as a whole, most radiologists see nothing wrong with the status quo at a historic time of nationwide protest against the treatment of African Americans at the hands of law enforcement?
I wouldn’t see it that way. For one, AM doesn’t represent ‘most radiologists’ but rather a very small subset of the speciaity. And sure, we have a couple of blowhards here, but I wouldn’t mistake that for a majority opinion. And disagreeing with the violence and wholesale looting of inner city businesses does not mean that anyone endorses what happened to Mr Floyd.
For personal reasons, I am quite interested in the treatment of AA by the police, but then nobody in my family walks around high on drugs and all of their encounters with the police or the SD have been professional.
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Quote from 67ED5CC042435
If you look past the riot and looting youll see large peaceful groups protesting.
You mean like Marion Barrys timeless quote:[i] ‘If it wasn’t for the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country’.[/i]
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Quote from fw
Quote from 67ED5CC042435
Why not just put him in the cop car or if suspected he was overdosed an ambulance? Its not like cops dont regularly interact with belligerent individuals who are drunk or high or both.
They had him in the cop car but he was kicking and fighting with them. So they dragged him back out and ‘calmed him down’.
As so often, what we are being shown is the very tail end of a longer event.
fw, do you have a link for that video showing Floyd resisting arrest. I read your posts & allegations on the internet of resistance but so far have turned up zilch showing anything of the sort.
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Quote from Frumious
fw, do you have a link for that video showing Floyd resisting arrest. I read your posts & allegations on the internet of resistance but so far have turned up zilch showing anything of the sort.
The Twin cities stations have it. Was released by the Minneapolis PD.
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Quote from radgrinder
Thats why up-charging people is a bad idea. Manslaughter? Probably. Murder is much harder to prove due to the requirement of intent.
There is no requirement for intent in Minnesota law.But if prosecutors go for murder, there is a much higher risk of being unsuccessful and the officer(s) being acquitted. Have to charge people appropriately.
The charging document lists the lesser included charges of third degree murder and second degree manslaughter. The jury will be given all three charges along with jury instructions of what each word in the charges mean and what elements they would have to find to come to a guilty verdict.
There have been previous cases of cops being over-charged without lesser included charges. In that ‘all or nothing’ scenario, once the jury decided that the officers didn’t act with the intent to kill, they had to acquit the cops. MN law and the way this charge document is written is different.
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Just imagine the riots if the officers are acquitted….
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Just imagine the riots if the officers are acquitted….
CF our thoughts are aligned so much each time you post I am afraid Frumious is going to accuse us of being the same person.
There is almost no way this officer can get a fair trial.-
Quote from Thread Enhancer
Quote from Cubsfan10
Just imagine the riots if the officers are acquitted….
CF our thoughts are aligned so much each time you post I am afraid Frumious is going to accuse us of being the same person.
There is almost no way this officer can get a fair trial.
They might have to hold the trial in another state to try to find an “unbiased jury” (although likely impossible in this case) or otherwise accept a plea deal, but I don’t think the officers would agree to any charges like the MN AG wants.
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Thank you for the correction. There is the requirement for a depraved mind and acting without regard for human life in the murder charge.
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Doctorrads,
Youre hallucinating. No one said that people oppose protests.
Riots maybe.
The issue is whether medical societies should dip their toes into issues like this at all.
There are myriad organizations one can join if one wishes to express a political opinion and those organizations are expressly formed to support those political opinions. All good. Express your opinion however one likes.
But when medical organizations take on political bents, then their purpose gets muddled.
Are they now political organizations that simply happen to be made up of doctors? Are only people of particular political views allowed into the organizational leadership? If someone in the medical organization disagrees with the organizations political stances or recommended politicians, will those member(s) have their memberships revoked?
The Lancet published an editorial blasting Trump in mid-May. At the same time it published a widely read study against HCQ, a medication that Trump has suggested could be effective against COVID.
The Lancet has since had to retract that article and suffered a severe hit to its credibility in the process. Was the judgment of its editors impaired by political incentives? Its hard to ignore the likelihood.
Going down the political path is usually destructive for medical organizations. Its better to avoid it, remain neutral and credible.
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Quote from fw
There have been previous cases of cops being over-charged without lesser included charges. In that ‘all or nothing’ scenario, once the jury decided that the officers didn’t act with the intent to kill, they had to acquit the cops. MN law and the way this charge document is written is different.
This is good. The scenario is still very dangerous though. Any acquittal is likely to be perceived as unfair and reason to violently protest by some.
The whole thing is such a shame but I do see signs of people coming together and having these discussions ahead of time so we can respond appropriately when the time comes. Rushing in with aggression from both sides is just a recipe for disaster.
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Quote from radgrinder
Thank you for the correction. There is the requirement for a depraved mind and acting without regard for human life in the murder charge.
For the felony murder charge, it only requires the death of someone during the commission of a different felony. Whether holding the victim in the manner seen in the video is a third degree assault will be up for argument. His attorneys will claim that holding him down although he wasn’t actively resisting was ‘standard police technique’ and as such not an assault (just like putting 41 rounds into Amadou Diallo was ‘SOP’ for the NYPD).-
Fw,
Yeah, skimmed a police training manual on restraint. Try googling peace officer arrest and control. Theres chapters and workbooks on things like carotid holds.
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Quote from radgrinder
Fw,
Yeah, skimmed a police training manual on restraint. Try googling peace officer arrest and control. Theres chapters and workbooks on things like carotid holds.
Which all have been abandoned. Its one thing to choke someone out for a second to stop them from stabbing your partner, its something else to just kneel on a guys neck for minutes after he is already dead.-
Abandoned by Minnesota? Depending on the location, a lot of these maneuvers appear to be part of training manuals.
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Abandoned by the end-users
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Abandoned by the end users?
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Yes
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Source or speculation? If its been universally abandoned why include in training manuals?
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radgrinder, regardless of how people feel or if it’s right, I also find it just silly that a cop not only uses that maneuver but does it in an era where he knows he is getting filmed, and his friends know the same thing — of course it was common and known — this is more faux outrage over bad encounters with the police, stuff that is by definition a mess, but happens very rarely still. And this man was also a criminal.
Ellison is going for Murder 2 because it’s a joke and everyone will win: the guys will get off, the riots will start back up, and business as usual in marxist blue-ville continues.-
IB,
Unfortunately, I think the sequence of events you describe is how this is likely to play out.
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Studying the autopsy, there is no petechiae in or around the trachea, so strangulation and asphyxiation is not likely.
No bruising on or around the carotids, so no circumferential compression to cause devascularization of the brain and loss of consciousness.
No evidence of brain hypoxic edema or CVA.
No mention of cross sectioning the heart to see infarcts, but the RCA, LAD, circumflex and diagonal disease was severe.
Vertebrals, carotids not dissected or occluded.
With the knee position, it does not seem likely to me that the left carotid was occluded for a great length of time, too broad an imprint of pressure and it would not affect the vertebrals or the right carotid.
So, this should not be the proximate cause of death.
Likely cause? in my opinion, and I am just analyzing this from the medical/pathologic viewpoint, not any racial or behavioral or policy angle, drug effects and coronary disease, exacerbated by the exertion of resisting arrest and the arrest itself.
From my experience, if you resist an action by a police officer, the blowback is severe. Having said that, in retrospect, with the luxury of time and that I am not threatened or hyped up, they should have sat him up and assessed his distress sooner and better. The racial hatred angle to me is not all of this, and I do not see it here, and we are witnessing the extraordinary madness of crowds and rioters. I do understand the black population sees it 180 degrees opposite to this.-
The medical part I see the same way. I guess I just see the part about They should have sat him up and assessed his distress sooner and better as the important thing that would have made this go away. What a tragedy for all sides. Would it be worthwhile to help cops work through situations like this ahead of time so they are less inclined to act on emotion?
Also, its more than the black community that sees this 180 degrees from you and I suppose me as well. No amount of logic will change that. You will never change their minds. Is it worth asking ourselves if it is so important to be right that we cant do our part to heal the wounds. The visual of a knee on the neck for 8 minutes is horrible no matter how important it is as a cause of death.-
Understand. Having seen the riots of 1967 and after, and the solutions and healing offered over the next 53 years by leaders of all sectors of our society—–lots of $ spent, I wonder. Example: our radiology leaders, solution? not confident where they think they are going is where they are going to end up.
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I am a conservative, but have some sympathy for the liberal mayor of Mpls, MN after he declined to defund the entire police dept.
No law enforcement officers, no law. I would oppose it too. Would rather reform than delete and destroy. But, I get that I may be in a minority.
Those who have ever faced down a mob, at any order of magnitude, or in 2s or 3s, or a set of muggers, may not be surprised. Trust me, mobs are not the way to solve issues.
[link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=8pwhgrQfN1w&feature=emb_title]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=8pwhgrQfN1w&feature=emb_title[/link]-
Today has an eerie resemblance to 1968-1969. There was a pandemic (not as bad as now). Protests were occurring, some violent, although much more violent back then. Police were called pigs. There was a police corruption scandal in NYC (Serpico). The public lost confidence in the police and the police pulled back. Big city crime skyrocketed. NYC was a disaster zone in the 1970s. Eventually people had enough and that is the reason the Dirty Harry movies became so popular!
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That also assumes all the crime reduction in NYC over the past decade, decades is only due to stronger policing in communities of color. Crime has gone down in other cities as well. All a result only of increased pressure by police on these communities?
[link=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/nyregion/new-york-city-crime-2017.html]https://www.nytimes.com/2…k-city-crime-2017.html[/link]But criminologists differ about the cause of the continued declines. Mr. Zimring said that while better policing accounted for much of the decline in crime since 1990, it was no longer a primary driver. New York is tiptoeing toward a 90 percent crime decline for reasons that remain utterly mysterious, he said.
More broadly, research suggests that crime trends are closely tied to economic conditions. [link=https://thecrimereport.org/2016/12/06/the-startling-link-between-low-interest-rates-and-low-crime/]Interest rates[/link], [link=http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/677665]inflation[/link] and unemployment are among the macro-level factors influencing crime, according to James Austin, the president of the JFA Institute, a criminal justice policy nonprofit.
What the Fed does will have more of an impact than any sentencing or police reforms, Mr. Austin said.
The reductions in New York are a part of what the Brennan Center for Justice [link=https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/Crime_in_2017_Updated_Analysis.pdf]expects[/link] will be a 2.7-percent decline in crime rates and 5.6-percent drop in murder rates across the countrys largest cities.
After record-high bloodshed last year, killings in Chicago have declined 15 percent. -
Quote from vonbraun
Today has an eerie resemblance to 1968-1969. There was a pandemic (not as bad as now). Protests were occurring, some violent, although much more violent back then. Police were called pigs. There was a police corruption scandal in NYC (Serpico). The public lost confidence in the police and the police pulled back. Big city crime skyrocketed. NYC was a disaster zone in the 1970s. Eventually people had enough and that is the reason the Dirty Harry movies became so popular!
funny I was thinking that exact same thing. I’m old enough to remember this.
Many cities have been absolutely transformed over the past few decades, and I think a big part of it is because people feel safe there, in a way that you just didn’t decades ago. Many downtowns have gone from seedy places you did not want to be (unless seedy, dangerous, and violent were your things) to places full of trendy bars and restaurants, etc. People, especially young people, started moving downtown. A virtuous cycle ensued that has been awesome to see.
Not saying we are going to lose that, and I think the (peaceful) protests are absolutely appropriate and good (will leave at that, rather than more politics), but people should want to FIX the police, not DO AWAY WITH the police. You won’t like what you get.-
Quote from BHE
Quote from vonbraun
Today has an eerie resemblance to 1968-1969. There was a pandemic (not as bad as now). Protests were occurring, some violent, although much more violent back then. Police were called pigs. There was a police corruption scandal in NYC (Serpico). The public lost confidence in the police and the police pulled back. Big city crime skyrocketed. NYC was a disaster zone in the 1970s. Eventually people had enough and that is the reason the Dirty Harry movies became so popular!
funny I was thinking that exact same thing. I’m old enough to remember this.
Many cities have been absolutely transformed over the past few decades, and I think a big part of it is because people feel safe there, in a way that you just didn’t decades ago. Many downtowns have gone from seedy places you did not want to be (unless seedy, dangerous, and violent were your things) to places full of trendy bars and restaurants, etc. People, especially young people, started moving downtown. A virtuous cycle ensued that has been awesome to see.
Not saying we are going to lose that, and I think the (peaceful) protests are absolutely appropriate and good (will leave at that, rather than more politics), but people should want to FIX the police, not DO AWAY WITH the police. You won’t like what you get.
Absolutely yes. Would appreciate any specific ideas on how to do so. Seriously, this isnt just to win points on an anonymous forum. Specifics, please.-
Tienamen protesters are not the same as what we see here.
Same w/ Hong Kong demonstrators.
False equivalence.
The tactics of intimidation, humiliation, retaliation against individuals and their families and their businesses, and forced ‘confessions’, etc is what we saw w/ the Red Guards and what we see here.
If you ever in an encounter w/ police, some rules:
Make no sudden moves.
Follow instructions. Do not mouth off.
Do not run toward them or walk into them forcibly.
Do not try to take their gun from them (like Michael Brown did).
Be respectful. Keep your hands visible at all times.
Do not argue.
And if you are in the hospital late at night, realize you are on your own there and in the parking lot. Security w/ their flashlight and keys willl not be too much help. Speaking from experience here. Teaching the public about these rules would help, I think.
Assassination of the police as done by the Weathemen in the 70s and by BLM/Anitfa/now is wrong, wrong, wrong.-
My point was Red Guards is a false equivalence.
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We need police. We want them to be more intelligent about their actions. There is a low bar to entry, though, because the pay isn’t that great for the level of risk they put themselves in.
It takes quite a bit of emotional intelligence to be a police officer. I don’t know to screen for this, or how to accentuate one’s abilities before entering the actual force.
A difficult thing about keeping the issue of training police “local” is that it may be that local culture that may keep improvements from happening, or allowing atrocities to continuously occur (like in the Arbery case where the killers- non police- weren’t charged for weeks).
An issue with the “what about isms” or comparisons to other situations is that it may negate the efforts of simply listening to what the other side is saying today. We can use history to find a solution, but don’t let it make us deaf, or impede us from having empathy. -
I will get the Left credit for one thing. They are very good at putting out really “out there” policies such as defund the police, green new deal, etc. that they know will never pass but will push the conversation toward their views. The Right is terrible at trying to push for their more radical ideas like elimination of certain Cabinet positions, privatization of education, etc.
If we are opening up dialogue here for “out of the box” proposals to help fix the societal problems we have (because that is the real issue – not just blaming cops), I’ll throw one out and people can call me bad names after…
-All branches of the military create a new “Civic Corp” within them that handles construction, infrastructure maintenance, etc. Some functions handled by border patrol, national guard, etc. could be merged into these.
-Military service becomes mandatory for all 18-30 year olds unless: college, trade school, full time job (definition can vary)
-People can choose what service branch and if they want to just do the Civic Corp
-Civic Corp can become new place to put low-level offenders instead of jail as well
– Bonus of creating a good, healthy population with fighting capability if ever needed as well
The hope being that the military and Civic Core would help instill some values into people, give them jobs/salaries, and provide for the common good of the country. No one would then be “left out” and hopefully the cost wouldn’t be too high because they are providing needed things to the country. Could even have some private/public partnerships involved. This is just a basic idea. There are a lot of countries that have mandatory military service so this isn’t “radical” -
This is a problem that is exacerbated by our garbage education system and wealth inequality. That is fertile ground for racism.
Solutions:
campaign finance reform. namely, public funded elections.
repeal Glass Steagal.
repeal Citizens United.
change decades of laws that have been written by the wealthy, for the wealthy. for example,tax laws. (is cap gains tax ethical? ask yourself that)
or *education*. Ask yourself, if you believe in the idea of America as a meritocracy. If so, why is so called public education funded by local property taxes?
look at labor and capital. look at living wages. I have a banker friend who has 5 homes and is worth over 9 figures. nine. Do we want to live in a country with the wealth disparity we currently have?
This is a complex multifactorial problem. It ain’t going away anytime soon.
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Cubsfan– I think mandatory military or civic corp would be a great idea.
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Police need to be subject to full civil and criminal liability for acts that, when performed by any other member of society, would be considered assault or murder.
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Quote from el Jefe
Police need to be subject to full civil and criminal liability for acts that, when performed by any other member of society, would be considered assault or murder.
You haven’t thought about this topic very much. At least try to think of even the weakest counterpoint to your idea before you post again. -
Arbery trial to begin today.
1,000 summons sent for jury selection
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[link=https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/03/us/ahmaud-arbery-jury-what-we-know/index.html]Judge says ‘there appears to be intentional discrimination’ in Arbery jury selection, but allows trial to move forward with 1 Black juror[/link]
After a long and contentious [link=https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/us/ahmaud-arbery-mcmichaels-trial/index.html]jury selection process[/link] in a coastal Georgia county in preparation for the trial for [link=https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/us/ahmaud-arbery-case-timeline/index.html]Ahmaud Arbery’s killing,[/link] a panel of 12 people was chosen Wednesday — consisting of one Black member and 11 White members.
The jury was selected after a [link=https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/us/ahmaud-arbery-jury-selection-process-difficult/index.html]two-and-a-half-week selection process [/link]that ended with prosecutors for the state accusing defense attorneys of disproportionately striking qualified Black jurors and basing some of their strikes on race.
Judge Timothy Walmsley said the defense appeared to be discriminatory in selecting the jury but that the case could go forward. “This court has found that there appears to be intentional discrimination,” Walmsley said Wednesday.
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Defense also complains that there weren’t enough “Bubba” types of jurors in the pool
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Quote from Cubsfan10
-All branches of the military create a new “Civic Corp” within them that handles construction, infrastructure maintenance, etc. Some functions handled by border patrol, national guard, etc. could be merged into these.
-Military service becomes [b]mandatory[/b] for all 18-30 year olds unless: college, trade school, full time job (definition can vary)
-People can choose what service branch and if they want to just do the Civic Corp
-Civic Corp can become new place to put low-level offenders instead of jail as well
– Bonus of creating a good, healthy population with fighting capability if ever needed as wellSo, you propose a more just society by subjecting a subset of that society to involuntary servitude?
Yeah, that’s gonna be a “hard no” from me, dawg….A significant amount of my time in the Navy was spent dealing with administrative problems related to sh*tbirds and the consequences of their sh*tbird behavior. Confinement physicals, medical paperwork for administrative separations, scheduling psych evals, etc., etc., etc.
Saddling the modern military with hordes of mostly low-I.Q., illiterate, innumerate, and barely-socialized individuals with poor impulse control and other mental pathologies from hellish upbringing is a recipe for disaster.
Seek out Jordan Peterson’s talks on IQ. Then search for “McNamara’s Morons”.
Society needs to find a productive place for these people. I don’t know where that is, but its not the military. [i]The military doesn’t want them.[/i]
[i]
[/i] -
Someone has probably mentioned this already but I missed it. Just occurred to me that since George Floyd tested positive for sars-cov-2, technically, he will be classified as someone who died of covid-19.
Not a comment on his murder [b]at all[/b]. But pretty clear illustration of the ridiculousness of classifying every death *with* covid as being *from* covid. -
Quote from BHE
Someone has probably mentioned this already but I missed it. Just occurred to me that since George Floyd tested positive for sars-cov-2, technically, he will be classified as someone who died of covid-19.
Not a comment on his murder [b]at all[/b]. But pretty clear illustration of the ridiculousness of classifying every death *with* covid as being *from* covid.
Absolutely. All this upheaval long ago ceased being about a virus. It now more resembles a religious crusade to root out unbelievers and heretics. Public confessions, indulgences and dispensations; it’s a religion, all right…
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Quote from BHE
Someone has probably mentioned this already but I missed it. Just occurred to me that since George Floyd tested positive for sars-cov-2, technically, he will be classified as someone who died of covid-19.
No he wasn’t. The ME stated that he had tested positive for covid in early april and that as such the positive post-mortem test was due to delayed clearance of genetic material. -
Quote from fw
Quote from BHE
Someone has probably mentioned this already but I missed it. Just occurred to me that since George Floyd tested positive for sars-cov-2, technically, he will be classified as someone who died of covid-19.
No he wasn’t. The ME stated that he had tested positive for covid in early april and that as such the positive post-mortem test was due to delayed clearance of genetic material.
Yes, I was wrong. I usually look into things more before posting. I regret the error. -
Quote from BHE
Someone has probably mentioned this already but I missed it. Just occurred to me that since George Floyd tested positive for sars-cov-2, technically, he will be classified as someone who died of covid-19.
Not a comment on his murder [b]at all[/b]. But pretty clear illustration of the ridiculousness of classifying every death *with* covid as being *from* covid.
That is just so much paranoid conspiratorial BullSh1t!
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Cubsfan10
-All branches of the military create a new “Civic Corp” within them that handles construction, infrastructure maintenance, etc. Some functions handled by border patrol, national guard, etc. could be merged into these.
-Military service becomes [b]mandatory[/b] for all 18-30 year olds unless: college, trade school, full time job (definition can vary)
-People can choose what service branch and if they want to just do the Civic Corp
-Civic Corp can become new place to put low-level offenders instead of jail as well
– Bonus of creating a good, healthy population with fighting capability if ever needed as wellSo, you propose a more just society by subjecting a subset of that society to involuntary servitude?
Yeah, that’s gonna be a “hard no” from me, dawg….
A significant amount of my time in the Navy was spent dealing with administrative problems related to sh*tbirds and the consequences of their sh*tbird behavior. Confinement physicals, medical paperwork for administrative separations, scheduling psych evals, etc., etc., etc.
Saddling the modern military with hordes of mostly low-I.Q., illiterate, innumerate, and barely-socialized individuals with poor impulse control and other mental pathologies from hellish upbringing is a recipe for disaster.
Seek out Jordan Peterson’s talks on IQ. Then search for “McNamara’s Morons”.
Society needs to find a productive place for these people. I don’t know where that is, but its not the military. [i]The military doesn’t want them.[/i]
[i]
[/i]
Thank you for your response, experience, and your service!
I definitely do not like the idea of making anything mandatory but it was my hope to provide “some place to put these people” as you said. I was hoping for more of a new “sub-set” of each branch of the military that would be devoted to civic labor/duties that I hoped would be within reach of most individuals. The goal of making it mandatory is also one to really force people to do “something” rather than actually ending up in the military. We also have this justice system right now that usually either over-punishes (years in jail) or under-punishes (nothing) low-level offenders and I thought it would be nice to have an alternative place to “put them” also. Too many people are detached from society, America, etc. and if you or anyone else can think of a better alternative, I would love to hear it. -
Quote from ExNavyDoc
Saddling the modern military with hordes of mostly low-I.Q., illiterate, innumerate, and barely-socialized individuals with poor impulse control and other mental pathologies from hellish upbringing is a recipe for disaster.
Seek out Jordan Peterson’s talks on IQ. Then search for “McNamara’s Morons”.
Society needs to find a productive place for these people. I don’t know where that is, but its not the military. [i]The military doesn’t want them.[/i]
OK on the opposition to the draft and mandatory military service. And, IMHO, deferments from service helped create the tiers between volunteers and people who had no means to fight the draft being drafted vs people with heel spurs or “ability” to get into the Texas Air National Guard, etc. so I would be against deferments in general. Some of those “productive” people who got deferments weren’t exactly productive in any meaningful way.
But as someone from that Vietnam era, it was not the “McNamara Morons” who caused and lost that war, it was the high IQ people who believed in things like Communist Dominoes. Without these geniuses the “Morons” would have been able to stay home instead of fighting and dying for a lost cause. -
Quote from Frumious
OK on the opposition to the draft and mandatory military service. And, IMHO, deferments from service helped create the tiers between volunteers and people who had no means to fight the draft being drafted vs people with heel spurs or “ability” to get into the Texas Air National Guard, etc. so I would be against deferments in general. Some of those “productive” people who got deferments weren’t exactly productive in any meaningful way.
Who are these “some” you refer to, exactly? And who is judging what is “meaningfully productive”? You?[b] [/b][i] [/i][u][/u][strike][/strike]
Quote from Frumious
But as someone from that Vietnam era, it was not the “McNamara Morons” who caused and [b]lost that war[/b], it was the high IQ people who believed in things like Communist Dominoes. Without these geniuses the “Morons” would have been able to stay home instead of fighting and dying for a lost cause.
I never said that was the cause of the loss, so you needn’t put words in my mouth, nor mischaracterize my statement.
As far as a “lost cause”, the Viet Nam war ultimately was an operational loss, but a strategic victory. It bought time for S. Korea, Thailand, and the Philippines to get their own Communist insurgencies under control. If anyone lost that war, it was the leftists (i.e. Democrats) in Congress who cut the legs out from under the S. Vietnamese during the North’s final invasion in 1975. The re-education camps, the boat people, all that misery can be laid at the feet of Democrats, just like the current misery in all the “Blue” cities controlled by leftists for decades and decades.
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Frumious
OK on the opposition to the draft and mandatory military service. And, IMHO, deferments from service helped create the tiers between volunteers and people who had no means to fight the draft being drafted vs people with heel spurs or “ability” to get into the Texas Air National Guard, etc. so I would be against deferments in general. Some of those “productive” people who got deferments weren’t exactly productive in any meaningful way.
Who are these “some” you refer to, exactly? And who is judging what is “meaningfully productive”? You?[b] [/b][i] [/i][u][/u][strike][/strike]
My, my, testy. Over what exactly? Did I make an incorrect statement or just rub a nerve?
Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Frumious
But as someone from that Vietnam era, it was not the “McNamara Morons” who caused and [b]lost that war[/b], it was the high IQ people who believed in things like Communist Dominoes. Without these geniuses the “Morons” would have been able to stay home instead of fighting and dying for a lost cause.
I never said that was the cause of the loss, so you needn’t put words in my mouth, nor mischaracterize my statement.
As far as a “lost cause”, the Viet Nam war ultimately was an operational loss, but a strategic victory. It bought time for S. Korea, Thailand, and the Philippines to get their own Communist insurgencies under control. If anyone lost that war, it was the leftists (i.e. Democrats) in Congress who cut the legs out from under the S. Vietnamese during the North’s final invasion in 1975. The re-education camps, the boat people, all that misery can be laid at the feet of Democrats, just like the current misery in all the “Blue” cities controlled by leftists for decades and decades.
I said Vietnam was a lost cause. And it was a waste.
As for “Democrats” losing the war, you like & believe in the Rambo series I presume.
If you want history, look back to just after WWII when Ho asked the US to be an ally and not allow the French to re-occupy the country. Or at 1954 when the French got kicked out and then we had to get in to replace the French.
[link=https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-09-18/little-known-story-vietnamese-communist-leader-ho-chi-minh-s-admiration-us]https://www.pri.org/stori…i-minh-s-admiration-us[/link]
Democrats lost the war, my ass. Democrats got into the war because of Republican Hawks is a more truthful argument. What did Democrats not do that Republicans wanted to do but Democrats stopped them from doing?
You are trying to sell revisionist history BS. -
RG, or we can continue to have exchanges like the one between Navy Doc and Frumi above. It’s up to us. I’m pretty tired of people yelling at each other. I sure hope others are too.
I had the opportunity to attend a small group talk by Carl Rove last year. Before everyone on the left freaks out about what an ass he is let me just tell this a quick anectdote. After the talk I heard a friend say to another friend. “You know I am really glad you dragged me here. I hated Carl Rove before this talk and I still hate his politics, but that was one of the best things I have heard in years!”
Carl is an amazing political historian and analyst. His theme was; yes partisan politics is terrible right now, but it has been worse and it is going to get better. He gave examples from past presidential elections that would make your head spin. I believe we have reached a tipping point. -
If you promote or don’t stand against the lie that “white people” who do nothing but work hard, have families and act with integrity are the problem, you will never have any answer to anything.
It’s not true, intelligent or practical to call people racist just for living. The truly demonic is at work here, no doubt about it. -
TE,
Agreed. Nice anecdote. There is always a lot more nuance in views when people are willing to listen.
Looks like the thread is moving to hashing out disagreements about the Vietnam war. Probably time to move it to OT Politics.
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Quote from radgrinder
Looks like the thread is moving to hashing out disagreements about the Vietnam war. Probably time to move it to OT Politics.
For the best. This and other recent threads have reminded me why I have avoided any online political discussion until recently and why I was so insulted to be attached to a tribe by others. I have learned a lot about the participants here in the last few days. -
Quote from Frumious
My, my, testy. Over what exactly? Did I make an incorrect statement or just rub a nerve?
Quote from Frumious
You are trying to sell revisionist history BS.
I ask a simple question which you refuse to answer, then you resort to snark and veiled profanity. Who is it getting testy again?
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Frumious
My, my, testy. Over what exactly? Did I make an incorrect statement or just rub a nerve?
Quote from Frumious
You are trying to sell revisionist history BS.
I ask a simple question which you refuse to answer, then you resort to snark and veiled profanity. Who is it getting testy again?
If it was a simple question, apologies. I read your statements as anything but simple starting with your statement, “Who are these “some” you refer to, exactly? And who is judging what is “meaningfully productive”? Sounds snarky to me.
And the statement that Democrats lost Vietnam is not exactly what you’d call an accurate viewpoint. -
Another thread trying to sneak its way to the gen rad forum that belong with the circle jerks in the off topic mob postings.
This entire category seems falls into the category of never waste of a crisis. Protesters of all types are feeding off a cycle of a victimization mentality fueled by misguided anger and little intellect. All of the puppet tyrants are trying to rise up disguised as protesters. Unfortunately for academic rad programs, they will have to pay lip service, possibly for a year or two. Private practice rads will never and should never be thrown to the orthodoxy of leftist fascism. The expectations of excellence and production, beats this fleeting fad of diversity as the be all and end all. As usual, rads will say very little and form their own opinions quickly, and move on from this sham egalitarian fad.
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1960’s Red Guard?
Hyperbole in a spectacular hyperbolic sense in every way.
& let’s not forget Tiananmen Square if you want to bring in the Red Guard fighting democracy against the evident wishes of the people who were peacefully demonstrating then.-
Honestly , Frum, I am not trying to be hyperbolic, but when mobs of massive supported and funded people run rampant through the streets, ostensibly for the forced abolition of the police and authority, I do get concerned. And I do not live in Edina or Minnetonka. The Red Guard show trials and public humiliation exercises, and forced ‘confession’ of erroneous doctrine, does not seem familiar to you?
Just as an aside, (unconfirmed) rumor 46 Mnpls police officer resigned today. Also, as a thought exercise, who will you call when it hits the fan as you drive downtown in your late model BMW?-
As I have already posted, those “proposals” to abolish or defund police are just plain dumb and unrealistic. Police serve a function. It’s the police’s viewpoint that the public is the enemy who must be opposed with deadly force & control & too often is is a particular class of people who enjoy that viewpoint. Some of them were children.
Like the joke about 100 lawyers drowning being a good start, the resignation of these officers is likewise a good start. If they find it too difficult to be a good public servant maybe they should find another job. This is a good start for them to do just that.
As for China, do recall Tiananmen Square and the peaceful demonstrators who the government thought were challenging the status quo.
The American public is demonstrating we need more democracy and better policing. Better, not none. Demonstrators are not Red Guard dupes for believing that America can do better.
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Good post, Frumi. Does it alarm you that LA is reducing its police budget or would it have to be a bigger chunk before it would bother you?
Also, I think we have near unity on people being against racism and police purposely targeting minorities (or anyone). I think the problem is that some people believe that all (or most) cops do this daily for no reason while others believe that it’s a vast minority of cops. There is a lot of data on policing that’s available and it seems to be that the problem is erroneously being placed on cops rather than it falling on the governments for failing to help a lot of the high crime neighborhoods. For example, white people are killed 2x more than black people by police and yes it’s true that that is still disproportionate because there are 4-5x more whites, but blacks also commit 4-6x more crime. Now, some people would say well they are being targeted, that’s why it’s higher. I would say that there could be an element of that but that likely doesn’t explain it all.
I’m really concerned about the inner city culture and the perpetuity of crime throughout certain neighborhoods. They aren’t all black neighborhoods either. We can’t make fathers stick around for their sons and we have been failing at educating these kids but I think that’s where the focus should be and it shouldn’t be racist to talk about. Despite what a lot of lefties think, a lot of conservative people actually do care about the poor and minorities, they just don’t want the government to throw tax money at the problems via “solutions” that are clearly not working or not working well.
In general though regarding policing, we need more of it in certain areas and less of it in other areas and there should most definitely be differences in training and how they handle different situations but I believe that there already is…I think we just saw a bad situation and too many people are extrapolating that out to every cop and that’s not right. BLM and the Left was looking for a reason and they found one. Politics as usual honestly.-
Does it bother you to see a cop murdering a man on video in front of witnesses while that cop is protected by other police & while that cop looks so nonchalant even while applying pressure after the man stopped moving?
Does it really matter a count over who gets murdered by police more, white people or brown?
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First of all, I was being sincere in my post and my question about police budgets. I think you thought I was attacking you but I was seriously asking.
As to your questions,
Yes it does bother me to see that and I think it bothered everyone.
No it doesn’t matter the color of the person, but it appears to matter to BLM and the protestors so I addressed it.
The country won’t be as close to racism-free as it can be until the same incident happens no matter which “colors” the people are (even the reverse of black cop and white criminal) and the reaction is the same by the general populace. We clearly aren’t at that point and it’s disappointing.-
Police budgets are and have always been and should always be a municipal and state responsibility. And the budget should meet what is required for the public good.
That’s my position.-
You could run for office with that one!
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Flounce,
You are a highly respected member of the board. People listen to you. The country is united against police brutality, particularly against black people.
For the love of all thats holy, give us some specific suggestions on how to improve things and we will get it done!
Right now its just a bunch of people running around outside during a deadly pandemic, demanding changes that they are either unable or unwilling to specify.
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Many things can be true at once.
Most people strongly disagree with what happened to Floyd and the treatment of African Americans by the police.
Most Republicans agree that something should be changed, and are more than willing to engage with and create positive and specific solution(s).
Most people disagree with the widespread destruction and violence of the protests, up to and including the likely deaths that will result from protest-related COVID spread.
Many people are confused and frustrated by the violence and riots, as well as the messaging.
If the vast majority of people agree with the cause, and have expressed enthusiasm for changing and helping, why not use that positive energy to effect meaningful and longlasting change? It is a rare and golden opportunity, and it is rapidly slipping away.
Flounce, I am telling you right now, if you post or PM me some good ideas, those ideas will find their way to places where they will be seriously evaluated, discussed and possibly implemented.
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Very much agree with the above
Having to endure assholes driving over my lawn because trey are protesting or on my street at 60 mph with lights off at 1 am or setting cars on fire at my neighborhood dealership or police cars 8 blocks over – not acceptable.
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Quote from texas rads
Cubsfan– I think mandatory military or civic corp would be a great idea.
Because the country was soo much less racist when there was still a draft !-
FW- Not really a race thing. I just think it would be a good idea given how many young adults don’t really know what they want to do and go to college for “the experience” rather than learning. Different topic altogether.
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Quote from texas rads
FW- Not really a race thing. I just think it would be a good idea given how many young adults don’t really know what they want to do and go to college for “the experience” rather than learning. Different topic altogether.
Those who dont know what to do already have the option to sign up for a hitch in the military or a year with a service organization (conservation corps, peace corps etc.). I dont see why those who [u]do[/u] know what to do with their life should be forced into involuntary servitude to benefit those who dont know what they want to do.
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CF,
I think its an interesting idea. Will almost certainly need adjustments as these ideas do but thats cool. It is a specific thing. Waiting to see if anyone else weighs in.
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Quote from fw
Quote from texas rads
Cubsfan– I think mandatory military or civic corp would be a great idea.
Because the country was soo much less racist when there was still a draft !
I’m not sure racism and the draft are related. I was under the impression that the modern military builds good bonds through its diversity (~40% of current military are minorities).
The Left says they want to give everyone money, why not give everyone a mandatory job that helps themselves and the country?
The Left says they want fewer prisoners and less jail time. Why not give people the option of the Civic Corp/Military instead of jail?
Is the true goal to actually help these people, these communities, and the country or is the true goal to just get votes and attain selfish power? Let’s have a dialogue about actual solutions instead of hyperbole. If you don’t like the idea I laid out, then rebut it and make suggestions, and let’s come up with something workable.-
I want to make a public statement:
I think Mr. Floyd’s killing was a horrible thing. A murder by police.
Now – I have made my statement. Everyone should put it on their twitter feeds that Rolf has weighed in. It should go viral as everyone has been waiting for this.
what…
They haven’t?well I just thought that because every single business I deal with has felt it necessary to say murder is bad, that everyone was expected to say that. Yeah, I mean it, but still, everyone has to say it. Right??
I can’t tell you how enormously secure and comforted I am that my dry cleaner, vet, bank, credit card company, ad infinitum think murder is bad.
don’t be left out – be sure to register your opinion so the world knows.(back to reality – I know no one cares what I think. And I don’t take great solace in pro forma expressions of “outrage”, or whatever they are. I am just tired of hearing all the questionably sincere outrage. I mean, I believe most of those businesses who told me they were outraged genuinely think murder is a bad thing. But it has the feel of “we better say we don’t like murder or our customers will think badly of us”)
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Quote from Rolf Rad
(back to reality – I know no one cares what I think. And I don’t take great solace in pro forma expressions of “outrage”, or whatever they are. I am just tired of hearing all the questionably sincere outrage. I mean, I believe most of those businesses who told me they were outraged genuinely think murder is a bad thing. But it has the feel of “we better say we don’t like murder or our customers will think badly of us”)
So you see it all as virtue signaling and nothing or little more? And businesses could lose business if they are for reforms?
The question is why should incorporated organizations keep their collective mouths shut & opinions to themselves? Corporations after all are “people” according to law for 1 thing. And what private corporations decide to do does make a difference in history. Why should this be different? Because some label it as PC or virtue signaling? What would anyone expect from those opposed?
The only thing that would reduce all of this as nothing more than virtue signaling is the seriousness of the stance and how long people continue to speak out. Or whether it is allowed to peter out back into silence and the old status quo.
The big enemies of change will be those who oppose changes from the status quo, the “law and order” arguments as if protest is the opposite of law and order. It will be these people who oppose reform not to mention police unions who see no evil ever done by any police anywhere and Supreme Court rulings that allow for immunity from prosecution for what is criminal behavior by civilians.-
Mitt Romney joins the demonstrations.
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/06/07/romney-protest-black-lives-matter/]https://www.washingtonpos…st-black-lives-matter/[/link]-
fw- I get it. But service to the country could provide a common ground for people and perhaps even a more tangible sense of pride. It’s never going to happen, but I don’t think its a bad idea.
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Quote from texas rads
fw- I get it. But service to the country could provide a common ground for people and perhaps even a more tangible sense of pride. It’s never going to happen, but I don’t think its a bad idea.
It works that way in Israel and Switzerland. But we are not Israel or Switzerland where at least the majority of citizens have some joint sense of purpose.
Back when the US did have a draft, it did nothing to do away with racism. Those who were racist knuckleheads before being drafted were racist knuckleheads the day they were discharged.
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And we have the total nutjobs like Timothy McVeigh & company.
And regarding racism, it starts in the home. As the song says, “you have to be carefully taught…”
Our culture of late is anything but that we are ALL Americans working towards a common goal. We now have national media that seeks to divide us – while making a pretty buck out of the division. Go to any bookstore & see the books on dividing America. Or TV and radio. And the Internet. And then we have the Libertarians who believe they received no benefits ever from American government and society except tyranny and taxation.
The country has certainly screwed itself up.
That said, I think teaching civics in school aught to be done again. Most “kids” – and that includes adults don’t know anything about government or who their representatives are or how it all works and the history of America.
And national service would not be a bad idea with a Peace Corps model. It does not have to be only military service. There are more ways to serve than practicing for war. -
For most part, military training melt away racial barriers. Regardless of your ethnicity, you carry the same rank, sleep in the same bunk, eat the same food as person next to you. When your life had depended on a platoon mate of a different race, that difference no longer bothers you. All of a sudden, its us Americans versus them gooks.
Quote from fw
Quote from texas rads
fw- I get it. But service to the country could provide a common ground for people and perhaps even a more tangible sense of pride. It’s never going to happen, but I don’t think its a bad idea.
It works that way in Israel and Switzerland. But we are not Israel or Switzerland where at least the majority of citizens have some joint sense of purpose.
Back when the US did have a draft, it did nothing to do away with racism. Those who were racist knuckleheads before being drafted were racist knuckleheads the day they were discharged.
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Quote from MRItech
For most part, military training melt away racial barriers. Regardless of your ethnicity, you carry the same rank, sleep in the same bunk, eat the same food as person next to you. When your life had depended on a platoon mate of a different race, that difference no longer bothers you. All of a sudden, its us Americans versus them gooks.
So much for the theory.
I dont think the same applies for if someone is ‘cyber warfare technology technician 2nd class’ who works in a nondescript office building (or one of the other 90+% jobs in the uniformed military that never get close to the shooting war).
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Cubsfan– I think mandatory military or civic corp would be a great idea.
Because the country was soo much less racist when there was still a draft !
CF Im sorry fw felt obliged to come in with this sarcastic remark that does nothing to help continue a valuable discussion. I thought you were on to something.
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Rolf Rad, Agree!
I got the same emails and statements from one and all about covid-19. This whole thread is about outrage about what marketing depts were taught to do in time of crisis: Try to get on the right side of history.
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I don’t take great solace in pro forma expressions of “outrage”, or whatever they are. I am just tired of hearing all the questionably sincere outrage. I mean, I believe most of those businesses who told me they were outraged genuinely think murder is a bad thing. But it has the feel of “we better say we don’t like murder or our customers will think badly of us”
It is interesting from a popular sentiment/ political standpoint that in 2020 corporations feel that they are better served in getting on “the right side of history.”
It makes me think this time may be different, because we never saw such mass corporate statements standing with protestors in 1968 or 1992 or 2014.-
Rayzor, you hit on a kernal here. It is what has been bothering me
Is it still really outrage when it has become banal, when you are looking around to see what the companies next to you are doing before you speak out?
And Dergon, yes something IS different. The deaths of Freddie Gray and Philandro Castille were no less horrible, but no one was arrested in the case of Gray and the officer was acquitted in the case of castille. There were protests, of course, and they died out. Something is different. One hypothesis is that there are 32 million unemployed. 300 million confined to quarters. Emotions are already strained, and then this…
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The cynical part of me would say the thing that is different is the occupant of the White House and the fact that the election in is November.
Also, I guess no other opinions on my idea? Anyone else have any great ideas or do we all just mostly prefer to just muse about things (which is fine too)?
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Dergon, Dr S,
Google silence is violence. The answer to the corporate statement mystery is there.
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Quote from Dr.Sardonicus
And Dergon, yes something IS different. The deaths of Freddie Gray and Philandro Castille were no less horrible, but no one was arrested in the case of Gray and the officer was acquitted in the case of castille. There were protests, of course, and they died out. Something is different.
[h2][link=https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-lives-matter-doubles-since-2016-poll]Poll: Support for Black Lives Matter More Than doubles since 2016[/link][/h2]
Fifty-seven percent of American adults said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter, according to the [link=https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/86ijosd7cy/20200611_yahoo_race_police_covid_crosstabs.pdf]Yahoo News/YouGov survey[/link], compared to 27 percent who said the same in a similar poll four years ago.
The increase was seen across party lines, with Democrats still leading Republicans and independents in voicing support for the movement.
An overwhelming 84 percent of Democrats now say they have a favorable opinion of the Black Lives Matter movement, a 30-point jump since 2016.
Support among independents jumped to 55 percent from 21 percent four years ago.
Just 27 percent of Republicans said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter in the recent poll, but that is more than six times the 4 percent who said the same in 2016.
[/QUOTE]
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Quote from dergon
Quote from Dr.Sardonicus
And Dergon, yes something IS different. The deaths of Freddie Gray and Philandro Castille were no less horrible, but no one was arrested in the case of Gray and the officer was acquitted in the case of castille. There were protests, of course, and they died out. Something is different.
[h2][link=https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-lives-matter-doubles-since-2016-poll]Poll: Support for Black Lives Matter More Than doubles since 2016[/link][/h2]
Fifty-seven percent of American adults said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter, according to the [link=https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/86ijosd7cy/20200611_yahoo_race_police_covid_crosstabs.pdf]Yahoo News/YouGov survey[/link], compared to 27 percent who said the same in a similar poll four years ago.
The increase was seen across party lines, with Democrats still leading Republicans and independents in voicing support for the movement.
An overwhelming 84 percent of Democrats now say they have a favorable opinion of the Black Lives Matter movement, a 30-point jump since 2016.
Support among independents jumped to 55 percent from 21 percent four years ago.
Just 27 percent of Republicans said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter in the recent poll, but that is more than six times the 4 percent who said the same in 2016.
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Check back in 6 months. I don’t even know what exactly their movement wants.-
Quote from Cubsfan10
Quote from dergon
Quote from Dr.Sardonicus
And Dergon, yes something IS different. The deaths of Freddie Gray and Philandro Castille were no less horrible, but no one was arrested in the case of Gray and the officer was acquitted in the case of castille. There were protests, of course, and they died out. Something is different.
[h2][link=https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-lives-matter-doubles-since-2016-poll]Poll: Support for Black Lives Matter More Than doubles since 2016[/link][/h2]
Fifty-seven percent of American adults said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter, according to the [link=https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/86ijosd7cy/20200611_yahoo_race_police_covid_crosstabs.pdf]Yahoo News/YouGov survey[/link], compared to 27 percent who said the same in a similar poll four years ago.
The increase was seen across party lines, with Democrats still leading Republicans and independents in voicing support for the movement.
An overwhelming 84 percent of Democrats now say they have a favorable opinion of the Black Lives Matter movement, a 30-point jump since 2016.
Support among independents jumped to 55 percent from 21 percent four years ago.
Just 27 percent of Republicans said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter in the recent poll, but that is more than six times the 4 percent who said the same in 2016.
[/QUOTE]Check back in 6 months. I don’t even know what exactly their movement wants.
It’s possible there could be a backlash.
But generally swings this big mean a shift in societal norms.
What the public thinks black lives matter means is a shorthand for “there is systemic racial bias in policing that leads to violence against people of color that needs to be addressed”
I think we’re seeing a rapid swing in popular sentiment similar to marijuana decriminalization and same sex marriage.
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I was illustrating the additional stupidity of removing the movie because it has a black Oscar winner in it…not that it was removed because of that fact.
And I think you’re right Dergon, unless BLM “ruins their moment.” What I mean is, I think there is a ton of support for racial equality and at least some investigation into “systemic racism” which I think is overblown but still worth looking into. But, if BLM becomes a surrogate for the Democratic party (more than they already are), becomes violent, or over-reaches, then it will become unpopular or just another partisan group like Emily’s list or Planned Parenthood.
The Left is definitely trying to follow the same pathway they did with same sex marriage by constantly berating those who disagree with them. I seem to recall the cancel culture was out in full force back then too (ie. Mozilla CEO, Hobby Lobby, Chik-fil-A, etc.). The same sex marriage opinion reversal was frankly pretty amazing and likely unique though- even Obama was against legal gay marriage all the way back in 2008 (ha). The same sex opinion also gave a distinct issue for people to “vote on” regarding homosexuality whereas there isn’t really a solid thing for people to “vote on” regarding racial inequality…it’s much more nebulous. Democrats in big cities have been saying they were going to fix racial inequality for 50+ years. It’s not a simple problem to fix or even address.
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Quote from dergon
I think we’re seeing a rapid swing in popular sentiment similar to marijuana decriminalization and same sex marriage.
I agree with that but still hope it’s not just another impotent daydream for social justice.
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Gone with the Wind was not racist, at least not intended that way 50 years agao, when we lacked the proper sensibilities. We just didn’t know better.
Much like the 1996 film, Independence Day. It doesn’t look racist now. But wait 1000 years when we start asimilating intergalactic aliens. Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum will look like genocidal maniacs.
Everyone thinks they’re so much more sensible and better than their ancestors.
We were stupid. But dont judge the past and think you’re somehow better. Because in all likelihood, we’re likely committing the same mistakes.
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Quote from Jimboboy
Gone with the Wind was not racist, at least not intended that way 50 years agao, when we lacked the proper sensibilities. We just didn’t know better.
Much like the 1996 film, Independence Day. It doesn’t look racist now. But wait 1000 years when we start asimilating intergalactic aliens. Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum will look like genocidal maniacs.
Everyone thinks they’re so much more sensible and better than their ancestors.
We were stupid. But dont judge the past and think you’re somehow better. Because in all likelihood, we’re likely committing the same mistakes.
Agree with this but not about the aliens part. I mean how dumb. Using Microsoft Windows to run their spacecrafts so that Jeff Goldblum could wrote a simple virus to destroy the system?
& welcome back from exile jumbo. Now you can use your real name again unlike the others who need to use multiple alias to pretend their opinions are shared by, well, “many people say…”
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Quote from Frumious
Quote from Jimboboy
Gone with the Wind was not racist, at least not intended that way 50 years agao, when we lacked the proper sensibilities. We just didn’t know better.
Much like the 1996 film, Independence Day. It doesn’t look racist now. But wait 1000 years when we start asimilating intergalactic aliens. Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum will look like genocidal maniacs.
Everyone thinks they’re so much more sensible and better than their ancestors.
We were stupid. But dont judge the past and think you’re somehow better. Because in all likelihood, we’re likely committing the same mistakes.
Agree with this but not about the aliens part. I mean how dumb. Using Microsoft Windows to run their spacecrafts so that Jeff Goldblum could wrote a simple virus to destroy the system?
& welcome back from exile jumbo. Now you can use your real name again unlike the others who need to use multiple alias to pretend their opinions are shared by, well, “many people say…”
Just saying judging the past is silly. Because we are likely doing everything wrong right now. Especially when viewed with a context that will surely change 50yearsf from now.o -
Quote from Frumious
I agree with that but still hope it’s not just another impotent daydream for social justice.
There’s another tell. “Social justice” is a neo-Marxist nonsense phrase meant to deny people their individuality and agency.
It is collectivist, and therefore anti-individual, anti-Constitutional, and anti-Christian. -
Well, like, thats just your opinion, man.
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Frumious
I agree with that but still hope it’s not just another impotent daydream for social justice.
There’s another tell. “Social justice” is a neo-Marxist nonsense phrase meant to deny people their individuality and agency.
It is collectivist, and therefore anti-individual, anti-Constitutional, and anti-Christian.
You always that tin hat?
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Quote from Frumious
You always that tin hat?
Nah, Skip, ballcap is more my style.
You always gotta commie, or is that just an affectation for your friends?
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Maybe there will be change.
Im old enough to remember the kids in cages story regarding immigration and movements against building a border wall.
Now anarchists in Seattle have cordoned off part of the city, declared their independence with their own border walls and checkpoints. And folks seem cool with it.
The immigration controversy seems to have vanished.
I wonder if there is a sanctuary component within this new anarchist city within Seattle. Id like to visit the anarchist city to see what its like, but Im concerned Id be deported.
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Quote from radgrinder
Maybe there will be change.
Im old enough to remember the kids in cages story regarding immigration and movements against building a border wall.
Now anarchists in Seattle have cordoned off part of the city, declared their independence with their own border walls and checkpoints. And folks seem cool with it.
The immigration controversy seems to have vanished.
I wonder if there is a sanctuary component within this new anarchist city within Seattle. Id like to visit the anarchist city to see what its like, but Im concerned Id be deported.
Ha. Love it.
The short attention span of the modern human makes each issue supremely powerful and change-worthy, but only for a very short period in time. Miss your political window, and all is lost. The media knows this and lives/feeds on these moments in time. -
Quote from radgrinder
Now anarchists in Seattle have cordoned off part of the city, declared their independence with their own border walls and checkpoints.[b] And folks seem cool with it.[/b]
[b]Some[/b] folks seem good with it. You can be certain that many think it’s pretty nuts, but no point raising your voice at this point. It may get more and more ridiculous as the people in there feed off each other and move farther and farther “left” (not sure it’s even left vs right at some point; more like in an orthogonal, poorly thought out, direction, along the imaginary axis, to borrow from mathematics). If they start wearing “Mao More Than Ever” shirts and quoting Karl Marx then you’ll know they’ve reached their destination.
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Quote from Dr.Sardonicus
And Dergon, yes something IS different. The deaths of Freddie Gray and Philandro Castille were no less horrible, but no one was arrested in the case of Gray and the officer was acquitted in the case of castille.
The evidence demonstrated that Freddie Gray died in an accident. 6 officers were wrongfully arrested and prosecuted by a malicious district attorney. After three trials didn’t yield a single conviction, the remaining cases were dropped.
That malicious prosecution cost about 50 people their lives after the BPD pulled back from the worst neighborhoods for about a year allowed an extended ‘purge’ to commence.
