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Imaging societies weigh in on racial injustice
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Quote from Frumious
And we have the total nutjobs like Timothy McVeigh & company.
And regarding racism, it starts in the home. As the song says, “you have to be carefully taught…”
Our culture of late is anything but that we are ALL Americans working towards a common goal. We now have national media that seeks to divide us – while making a pretty buck out of the division. Go to any bookstore & see the books on dividing America. Or TV and radio. And the Internet. And then we have the Libertarians who believe they received no benefits ever from American government and society except tyranny and taxation.
The country has certainly screwed itself up.
That said, I think teaching civics in school aught to be done again. Most “kids” – and that includes adults don’t know anything about government or who their representatives are or how it all works and the history of America.
And national service would not be a bad idea with a Peace Corps model. It does not have to be only military service. There are more ways to serve than practicing for war.
There is nothing in here that can or should be argued as “wrong”. However, there probably will be some that attack this post because of how you are labeled. Just as they will likely be attacked back by you and those on your “side” of the argument. We have the power to stop the vicious cycle. I am not as good at it as I would like to be but I will keep trying.
The only solution real solution is a personal one. I like your statement that it starts in the home. We all need to look at ourselves closely and see what we are modeling for our children and family.-
[link=https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime]https://chicago.suntimes….-homicide-police-crime[/link]
In a city with an international reputation for crime where 900 murders per year were common in the early 1990s it was the most violent weekend in Chicagos modern history, stretching police resources that were already thin because of protests and looting.
Weve never seen anything like it, at all, said Max Kapustin, the senior research director at the crime lab. … I dont even know how to put it into context. Its beyond anything that weve ever seen before.
On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, Hey, theres no police anywhere, police aint doing nothing, Pfleger said. -
[link=https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime]https://chicago.suntimes….-homicide-police-crime[/link]
In a city with an international reputation for crime where 900 murders per year were common in the early 1990s it was the most violent weekend in Chicagos modern history, stretching police resources that were already thin because of protests and looting.
Weve never seen anything like it, at all, said Max Kapustin, the senior research director at the crime lab. … I dont even know how to put it into context. Its beyond anything that weve ever seen before.
On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, Hey, theres no police anywhere, police aint doing nothing, Pfleger said.-
Quote from BHE
[link=https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime]https://chicago.suntimes….-homicide-police-crime[/link]
In a city with an international reputation for crime where 900 murders per year were common in the early 1990s it was the most violent weekend in Chicagos modern history, stretching police resources that were already thin because of protests and looting.
Weve never seen anything like it, at all, said Max Kapustin, the senior research director at the crime lab. … I dont even know how to put it into context. Its beyond anything that weve ever seen before.
On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, Hey, theres no police anywhere, police aint doing nothing, Pfleger said.
Shocker… Will be interesting to see what happens in Minneapolis if they truly disband their PD.-
Quote from Cubsfan10
Shocker… Will be interesting to see what happens in Minneapolis if they truly disband their PD.
Oh, it’ll be an island of peace and tranquility. ‘Violence interruptors’, ‘community organizers’, ‘early intervention counselors’ will be all over the place and everyone will treat each other with the utmost respect. ‘Minnesota Nice!’ on steroids.
Yes, there are towns that have ‘disbanded’ their police before. But all of them have done so as part of a transfer of law enforcement responsibility to a neighboring or larger agency. Small city department merged into larger ones, cities disbanded and contracted the county etc. I doubt there is an example of a community in the US that went for having a law enforcement presence to NONE.-
This kid understands.
Black kid who swept up the streets of Buffalo after the riot.
People in his community gave him a 2004 Mustang, insurance and a free college education in return.
He understood what doing good things for people can do. My God, someone finally understood.
[link=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/teen-cleans-buffalo-protest-rewarded-with-car-scholarship-trnd/index.html]https://www.cnn.com/2020/…arship-trnd/index.html[/link]
When Antonio Gwynn Jr. saw the damage from protests in his hometown of Buffalo, New York, he grabbed a broom, bought some trash bags and started cleaning the streets by himself.
He started at 2 a.m. on Monday and did not stop cleaning for the next 10 hours. When an organized group of neighbors arrived later that morning to start clearing the damage, they found that Gwynn had already done most of the work.
Gwynn is an 18-year-old high school senior. He told CNN that he saw on the local news that Bailey Avenue in Buffalo was covered in glass and garbage, and he knew people needed to use that street to get to work in the morning.
When word spread of how Gwynn single-handedly took action, his community responded.
Matt Block saw Gwynn’s story on the news and decided to give him his prized 2004 red Mustang convertible. Block, 27, told CNN the car is one he wanted since he was a child, but these days he is only using it occasionally. He saw Gwynn ask for some car buying advice on Facebook, and Matt decided to offer up his sports car.
It turns out that gift has more meaning than Block ever imagined. Gwynn’s mother, who passed away in 2018, also drove a red Mustang. When he realized the coincidence, Gwynn says that he was so shocked he “didn’t have any words,” and Block says it gave him “goosebumps.”
Local businessman Bob Briceland learned of Block’s gift, and he decided to extend a year of free auto insurance coverage through his insurance agency.
“I just felt compelled to help him out. We just need to get together our whole city and show people how there’s so many good people here,” Briceland told CNN affiliate WKBW.
After high school, Gwynn had planned to go to trade school while saving up to go to college. Upon hearing Gwynn’s story, Medaille College in Buffalo offered him a full scholarship where he plans to study business starting this fall. One of his many career goals is to open a cleaning business.
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The kid understands and the community understands. There is a lot more of this going on than any of us realize. I had commented earlier how I was encouraged to see more of this type of reporting when I read or turn on the news lately. It is still rare but there is hope. Here is where we should focus our efforts. Work locally. Be one of the people that supports a kid like that.
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Quote from Thread Enhancer
The kid understands and the community understands. There is a lot more of this going on than any of us realize. I had commented earlier how I was encouraged to see more of this type of reporting when I read or turn on the news lately. It is still rare but there is hope. Here is where we should focus our efforts. Work locally. Be one of the people that supports a kid like that.
Agreed. I wish there were much more positive examples like this reported than all the clickbait of riots. People imitate what they see as examples, and when rioters/protestors are lauded, expect to get more of that. When people who help and participate in the community are rewarded and this is shown publicly, expect to get more of that. Its really not that hard.
On a side note, I have been amazed by the quasi-religious nature of the conventionally anti-religion Democratic/left wingers during this movement. From the ritualistic group chants and public expiation of original sin (aka, white privilege) to the literal washing of the feet of BLM members, the recent approach is a point by point adaptation of biblical themes. Which isnt a bad thing; biblical wisdom is incredibly effective. Its ironic to see it used so obviously by people who spend the rest of the day calling it backwards nonsense.
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Quote from BHE
On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, Hey, theres no police anywhere, police aint doing nothing, Pfleger said.
Hey, that’s what you wanted, right ?
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Academic radiologists have absolutely no idea how unpopular their political views are in the private world. Stick to writing papers.
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Did a post get deleted or something?
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[link=https://www.startribune.com/manufacturer-that-burned-during-mpls-riots-plans-to-move-out-of-the-city/571104922/?refresh=true]https://www.startribune.com/manufacturer-that-burned-during-mpls-riots-plans-to-move-out-of-the-city/571104922/?refresh=true[/link]
A Minneapolis manufacturing company has decided to leave the city, with the company’s owner saying he can’t trust public officials who allowed his plant to burn during the recent riots. The move will cost the city about 50 jobs.
“They don’t care about my business,” said Kris Wyrobek, president and owner of 7-Sigma Inc., which has operated since 1987 at 2843 26th Av. in south Minneapolis. “They didn’t protect our people. We were all on our own.”
When asked if he thought of relocating before the riots, Wyrobek said, “not in my wildest nightmare.” On Monday, he was sorting through the remnants of his business, figuring out how to get up and running again.
“We are cautiously optimistic we can do that,” he said. “But we are certainly not able to do that in Minneapolis.”
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Quote from radgrinder
[link=https://www.startribune.com/manufacturer-that-burned-during-mpls-riots-plans-to-move-out-of-the-city/571104922/?refresh=true]https://www.startribune.com/manufacturer-that-burned-during-mpls-riots-plans-to-move-out-of-the-city/571104922/?refresh=true[/link]
A Minneapolis manufacturing company has decided to leave the city, with the company’s owner saying he can’t trust public officials who allowed his plant to burn during the recent riots. The move will cost the city about 50 jobs.
“They don’t care about my business,” said Kris Wyrobek, president and owner of 7-Sigma Inc., which has operated since 1987 at 2843 26th Av. in south Minneapolis. “They didn’t protect our people. We were all on our own.”
When asked if he thought of relocating before the riots, Wyrobek said, “not in my wildest nightmare.” On Monday, he was sorting through the remnants of his business, figuring out how to get up and running again.
“We are cautiously optimistic we can do that,” he said. “But we are certainly not able to do that in Minneapolis.”
Once all of Minneapolis is on UBI, there is no need for his ‘jobs’.
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Quote from DocinPA
Oh, good. Academic clowns being political clowns. Why don’t you morons stick to medicine instead of indulging your woketard brats on campus? And I take a knee for no one.
Is this your response to Flounce’s inquiry about whether the comments are representative of rads in general?
Quote from Flounce
I wonder if the impression one gets from reading these comments is representative – that as a whole, most radiologists see nothing wrong with the status quo at a historic time of nationwide protest against the treatment of African Americans at the hands of law enforcement?-
“woketard” …. really?
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Quote from dergon
“woketard” …. really?
DocinPA slaying the libs. 🙂-
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Quote from dergon
“woketard” …. really?
DocinPA slaying the libs. 🙂
Where did Dr. Woketard from PA go? Message is gone.
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Quote from dergon
“woketard” …. really?
‘woke special people’
‘woke individuals with differing abilities’
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ARRS issued a statement in the past couple days.
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Looking at things from a broad view, there is no shortage of solutions to the issue, but any solution must be proposed by the black community to be effective.
The rest of America is more than happy to hear them; as demonstrated by that story from Buffalo, community members were so thrilled to see a young black man take part in helping the community that they gave him a new car with accompanying auto insurance as well as a full ride scholarship to a local college.
That story goes against the prevailing and politically useful narrative that America is inherently and irredeemably racist and that people want to see black people at a disadvantage.
That narrative is wrong, but politically useful, particularly in an election year. Therefore things are unlikely to change much, and if so probably for the worse in many areas judging by the destruction wrought upon cities by riots.
Unless of course more people pick up their brooms and start sweeping. I think people would be amazed at the positive things that would result.-
Quote from radgrinder
Unless of course more people pick up their brooms and start sweeping. I think people would be amazed at the positive things that would result.
I have to admit getting a twinge of emotion reading this, a microcosm of the emotion I feel when reading your earlier story and seeing these stories shown in the local and national media.
I am going to ask you a question you asked me before. Ever think of running for office?-
Yes. I have changed quite a bit as a person over the past few years, and in particular over the past few months.
A decade ago the idea would have been absurd, now it seems more likely than not. The pandemic really shook the box for me and rearranged my life and thinking in a multitude of ways.
There is no effective way forward for our communities without everyone pulling in something resembling the same direction. And this is very much possible. There is a golden age at our fingertips. Its so unbelievably close. I want my and everyones kids to live it.
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Quote from radgrinder
Yes. I have changed quite a bit as a person over the past few years, and in particular over the past few months.
A decade ago the idea would have been absurd, now it seems more likely than not. The pandemic really shook the box for me and rearranged my life and thinking in a multitude of ways.
There is no effective way forward for our communities without everyone pulling in something resembling the same direction. And this is very much possible. There is a golden age at our fingertips. Its so unbelievably close. I want my and everyones kids to live it.
Glad to hear it. I have been of the belief all along that there is a large majority of people that want to act in unity for the common good. I have discussions with people all of the time from just about every political persuasion. It’s amazing how much we have in common and how well we work together when we ignore our labels.
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Frumious
OK on the opposition to the draft and mandatory military service. And, IMHO, deferments from service helped create the tiers between volunteers and people who had no means to fight the draft being drafted vs people with heel spurs or “ability” to get into the Texas Air National Guard, etc. so I would be against deferments in general. Some of those “productive” people who got deferments weren’t exactly productive in any meaningful way.
Who are these “some” you refer to, exactly? And who is judging what is “meaningfully productive”? You?[b] [/b][i] [/i][u][/u][strike][/strike]
Quote from Frumious
But as someone from that Vietnam era, it was not the “McNamara Morons” who caused and [b]lost that war[/b], it was the high IQ people who believed in things like Communist Dominoes. Without these geniuses the “Morons” would have been able to stay home instead of fighting and dying for a lost cause.
I never said that was the cause of the loss, so you needn’t put words in my mouth, nor mischaracterize my statement.
As far as a “lost cause”, the Viet Nam war ultimately was an operational loss, but a strategic victory. It bought time for S. Korea, Thailand, and the Philippines to get their own Communist insurgencies under control. If anyone lost that war, it was the leftists (i.e. Democrats) in Congress who cut the legs out from under the S. Vietnamese during the North’s final invasion in 1975. The re-education camps, the boat people, all that misery can be laid at the feet of Democrats, just like the current misery in all the “Blue” cities controlled by leftists for decades and decades.
I like this. -
5 posts out of 5 pages on Vietnam & someone wants to move the topic of imaging societies commenting on racism to the political forum??? Racism is bad because it’s political? Is this Fahrenheit 451 where books might cause people to feel bad because of the subjects it makes people think about?
I did not know this was the Snowflake forum.
I’ve read more violence when people are talking about AI.-
Frumious. I have been supportive of your thoughts here. It’s just a waste to approach it the way you and your opponents do. Maybe you enjoy the back and forth but I just find it depressing. I would rather spend my time having personal discussions and trying to be a good example to my children. As RG and I have noticed there is a lot to be hopeful for but only when there is a spirit of cooperation. That is sorely lacking here.
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Start a new thread – policy ideas for future radiologists as politicians.
I tried to get a discussion going about a specific policy with the compulsory military/civic service. We could expand on that or move to different areas. I agree that bickering back and forth isn’t good. I will say that I think we all learned a lot about covid though from this forum discussion and I certainly was WAY more informed then pretty much everyone at my hospital (even up to the highest levels – it was sad how poor of an understanding they had actually). So we can all take solace in that.-
I like your attitude CF. I thought your approach was a good one. Opening up with an idea and recognizing how others might be able to use their experience to improve upon it or just thoughtfully criticize it.
I would participate in that type of discussion. I just have not seen it last very long.
I agree that we learned a lot about COVID by participating here. Still lots to learn. Statistics are very hard to understand at first glance and often counter intuitive. It helps to be forced to go back time and again and revisit thoughts to make sure there are not errors. -
The most troubling aspect of this series of events is the effect it will have on physicians and health experts as a whole. Prior to this, we enjoyed a very strong reputation in the community. The field of medicine certainly had political aspects to it (Medicare for All, etc.), but the actual doctors, nurses, etc. were seen as apolitical doers of good who used science to heal.
So, when we told everyone that they needed to stay home, even when the consequence was losing their jobs and businesses…they did. That was a reflection of how much trust we as the medical profession had.
When people (predominantly Republicans) protested peacefully against the lockdowns a month or so ago, many people in the medical profession joined in the criticism. Some people called the protestors murderers, terrorists and so on, and there were pictures of medical professionals in scrubs standing defiantly in traffic blocking the protestors.
In the past week or so though when confronted with the significantly more massive Floyd protests, the same medical professionals who severely criticized previous protests supported and even advocated for the new round of protests.
What changed? There was no new scientific evidence saying that the pandemic was over, no new treatment or breakthrough. The size of the protests meant that likelihood of spread and resulting deaths was an order of magnitude higher than the previous protests.
The only thing that changed was the cause of the protests. The Floyd protests are much more aligned with the political leanings of the majority of the highly visible and academically oriented medical and health officials than the pro-business anti-lockdown protests are. Academics and epidemiologists don’t run businesses or have employees, so those protests did not reverberate, and the cause was not deemed sufficiently important.
The problem is, this preference is now exposed. The science is not the capital S, Science, immutable and unquestionable, handed down by benevolent, wise, and unbiased trusted medical experts.
By condoning one protest while condemning another, the medical and health-related professions have demonstrated that they have their own political agenda. In the future our recommendations will likely be seen in that potentially partisan light rather than in the more favorable neutral light that was much more conducive to the long-term health and trust in our profession.
In the very short term future, this will likely mean that recommendations for lockdowns will be much more likely to be ignored or even mocked. This is the cost of politicizing the recommendations of the health and medical professions. It is a very high price no matter the worthiness of the cause.
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Great post RG. I agree with you. I fear the modern age of social media and being able to find anything you want that agrees with you on the Internet will not allow ANYTHING to be free of politicization.
For example, my suggestion of compulsory service – is that a Republican ideal? Democrat? Neither? I would argue that it has features of both parties platforms, but it’s essentially an idea attached to nothing but the moment someone speaks it in the public forum then it is pulled away into the abyss of that party and will inevitably split the country into their tribal factions.
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CF,
I thought your idea of a civil service corps is a perfectly good one.
The thing is, the merits of an idea are often not as important as who is proposing it and whether the critical parties are willing to engage and negotiate ideas and solutions.
There is nothing particularly wrong with the idea. Its probably a very good one after some adjustments.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Great post RG. I agree with you. I fear the modern age of social media and being able to find anything you want that agrees with you on the Internet will not allow ANYTHING to be free of politicization.
For example, my suggestion of compulsory service – is that a Republican ideal? Democrat? Neither? I would argue that it has features of both parties platforms, but it’s essentially an idea attached to nothing but the moment someone speaks it in the public forum then it is pulled away into the abyss of that party and will inevitably split the country into their tribal factions.
If you are looking for a topic free of politics, compulsory service is exactly a topic that defeats your goal from GO. Might as well complain about a non political discussion about race.
Compulsory service might be a reasonable idea except there are many reasons compulsory service has an uphill climb regardless of political affiliation. Starting with the history of the Vietnam War. I assume you do not realize much about how and why the country went from the draft filling military positions to a volunteer military.
2nd, you do not discuss what you mean by “compulsory service” so the “small government” and Libertarians are immediately opposed to the idea. As you read a couple of times, some view this as “involuntary servitude.” Is compulsory service for military duty or other service? The Peace Corp or America Corp? Other plans? “Virtue signaling?” As one famous politician said who did not serve during the Vietnam draft, “I had better things to do.”
3rd, back to “small government,” you would be re-creating a huge government department & responsibility. And unless the service is able to make a profit, it would have to be funded. How? Taxes? Not exactly something many Americans have supported since Reagan regardless of failing infrastructure, etc.
Maybe not a bad idea but the devil is always in the details and the details have been opposed by Americans for at least 40 years now, good or bad.
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Thanks for laying out some of the issues Frumious without coming down hard on one side or the other. The interesting twist in CFs plan was including a civilian corps so those who are opposed to military or police conflict could participate. That was a novel approach. There are still many issues including those Navy Doc brought up.
The idea is we each share our knowledge and experience to help understand what could be done differently and make the best of the positive aspects. During this type of discourse we might actually arrive at some common ground.
The problem comes when an idea is given its traditional label eg. compulsory service. What usually happens then is each side digs in with its long used arguments and they get less and less agreeable to change as they convince themselves more and more they are correct.-
Thanks Frumi, all good points. I think a civic-focused department would be better than military. I had just hoped to use the existing military infrastructure.
I hoped that the main benefits would be 1) That the existence of the compulsory service would “force” people to do one of the exclusions – college, trade school, full time job, etc. and 2) There would be a place to “put people” who commit low level crimes without sending them to jail or allowing them off with nothing.
The role of a bigger government is one that I think is palatable to even Republicans because it would exist as military/service rather than a new nebulous regulatory authority. I admit I had also labeled it military to entice more on the right and labeled it as a guaranteed job to entice those on the left.
The issue of payment is likely the biggest problem I have with my own idea, although if given the right projects, I would hope that the jobs would “pay for themselves” and private-public partnerships could be formed. You could argue that the gain from not having to pay welfare services to as many people would pay for at least some of it.
I was hopeful that after decades of the service, that Americans would feel a greater connection to their country and to their fellow Americans since they would hopefully be exposed to the diversity of America in the process.
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Cable news and the internet has contributed a great deal to division in America. Division is a great big profit motive and business plan.
Divide and conquer. Big money in them there divisions.-
Quote from Frumious
Cable news and the internet has contributed a great deal to division in America. Division is a great big profit motive and business plan.
Divide and conquer. Big money in them there divisions.
(Jaw drops) -
Quote from Frumious
Cable news and the internet has contributed a great deal to division in America. Division is a great big profit motive and business plan.
Divide and conquer. Big money in them there divisions.
+1-
I’ll be taking part in the “White Coats for Black Lives” event at our hospital tomorrow, taking a knee in solidarity.
I know it’s not much, but at least it’s something.-
So, a bunch of doctors are going to take a knee to make themselves feel better? Or is this a spectator event? I’m confused at how these events work exactly.
You will take a knee. Will you donate money? Do pro bono work for the black community? Adopt a black foster child?
I’m not picking on you at all, I just find these things to be confusing and cop outs. If you truly want to do something, then do something. I’m sure a lot of people will support a focused effort that could make real change. -
Quote from dergon
I’ll be taking part in the “White Coats for Black Lives” event at our hospital tomorrow, [b]taking a knee in solidarity[/b].
I know it’s not much, but at least it’s something.
You mean “taking a knee in submission to the woke-mob”. Good luck with that, and may your chains rest lightly upon you.
There are only 4 lights…
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This is meant to be a show of solidarity., to bring attention to the issue locally. Hopefully local media will cover the event and it will be a positive display for the community.
The organization itself is dedicated to ending racial disparities in medical care and predates the Floyd incident.
[link=https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/]https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/[/link]
My charitable contributions are already reflective of support for social justice as are my volunteer efforts. My primary charity, run by one of my best friends, is dedicated to finding permanent placement for disadvantaged youth in the foster system.
Could I do more, give more of my time and of my money? Sure. But I’m pretty comfortable with where my own actions stand.
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Interesting how far this has corroded into the medical system.
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Quote from dergon
This is meant to be a show of solidarity., to bring attention to the issue locally. Hopefully local media will cover the event and it will be a positive display for the community.
The organization itself is dedicated to ending racial disparities in medical care and predates the Floyd incident.
[link=https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/]https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/[/link]
My charitable contributions are already reflective of support for social justice as are my volunteer efforts. My primary charity, run by one of my best friends, is dedicated to finding permanent placement for disadvantaged youth in the foster system.
Could I do more, give more of my time and of my money? Sure. But I’m pretty comfortable with where my own actions stand.
I don’t feel the need to kneel for anyone, but that’s just me and I respect if you think it will somehow help others. If people kneel though, it should be ALL people and not just some kneeling and some standing as some sort of weird reparation event. In general, I’m more than willing to fight for equality in any arena but I’m not willing to downplay/regress myself when the “other sides” sometimes seem like they want reverse inequality rather than true equality.
I’m not going to support a lot of the liberal things you do, but if a person is willing to give up their time and money for a cause, I can respect that. I get annoyed by verbal virtue signallers who do nothing but scream at people, try to get them fired, etc. I hope you’ve been able to help some in the community and no matter what political leaning, you should be proud of that part.-
I am ok with this, so long as there is a tangible and long lasting benefit to society.
See below. During times of plague, there is a very high human tendency towards penitential acts.
Essentially, the gods (God) is angry at you/society about something you did, and until you cleanse yourself of said sin, the plague continues.
Before, there were liturgical processions about a city asking for forgiveness, now there are protest marches.
Before there were public renunciations of sin and confessions. Now people renounce their privilege online and in street rituals.
Genuflection and remarking upon the duty to help others in need in the community? Sure, happened all the time.
But, once the plague was over, everything tended to return to how it was.
Perhaps Ive read too much history. After quite a bit of meditation, calm and some time off the fire hose of social media, these comparisons leapt from the subconscious.
It was the sensation of wondering what the name of a song was or where youd seen an actor before after having it drive you nuts for hours, and then you remember.
We couldnt do anything about the plague. We needed a sin to expiate. And society can actually benefit from it, so long as genuine and positive change results.
This introspective look at ones sinfulness amid the plagues potential expression of Gods fury also led some believers to flagellation a more intense form of penitence caused by whipping ones flesh which was condemned by the church.
Joelle Rollo-Koster, professor of medieval history at the University of Rhode Island in Kingston, said the basic principle at the time was God is mad at you and to punish you he sends a disease, and the traditional response was a need to atone for sins which during the Black Death was done by prayers, processions through the streets and more suffering.
She pointed out that during the plague there were many liturgical processions, usually around the perimeter of a city, asking for Gods protection and demonstrating sorrow for sins.
But amid this overarching sense of penitence, the church also conveyed the sense of gaining merit in the afterlife for their faith in the midst of suffering, Mormando said. The church also reminded people about the duty of solidarity and service to people in need. He said the churchs message on this also was directed to the government, stressing that it had the responsibility to take care of the poor, the weak and the orphaned.
Once the plagues ended, the historian said, society shook itself off and continued, more or less as before without learning moral or economic lessons.
[link=https://cruxnow.com/covid-19/2020/04/catholic-church-responded-to-plagues-with-penance-prayers/]https://cruxnow.com/covid…-with-penance-prayers/[/link]
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Quote from dergon
This is meant to be a show of solidarity., to bring attention to the issue locally. Hopefully local media will cover the event and it will be a positive display for the community.
The organization itself is dedicated to ending racial disparities in medical care and predates the Floyd incident.
[link=https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/]https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/[/link]
My charitable contributions are already reflective of support for social justice as are my volunteer efforts. My primary charity, run by one of my best friends, is dedicated to finding permanent placement for disadvantaged youth in the foster system.
Could I do more, give more of my time and of my money? Sure. But I’m pretty comfortable with where my own actions stand.
Well, I think you are well-intentioned but misguided about the so-called “social justice” thing, but at least you are putting your money where your mouth is. That’s more than most are doing. I gotta respect that, at least.
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from dergon
This is meant to be a show of solidarity., to bring attention to the issue locally. Hopefully local media will cover the event and it will be a positive display for the community.
The organization itself is dedicated to ending racial disparities in medical care and predates the Floyd incident.
[link=https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/]https://whitecoats4blacklives.org/[/link]
[size=”0″] [/size]
[size=”0″]My charitable contributions are already reflective of support for social justice as are my volunteer efforts. My primary charity, run by one of my best friends, is dedicated to finding permanent placement for disadvantaged youth in the foster system. [/size]
Could I do more, give more of my time and of my money? Sure. But I’m pretty comfortable with where my own actions stand.Well, I think you are well-intentioned but misguided about the so-called “social justice” thing, but at least you are putting your money where your mouth is. That’s more than most are doing. I gotta respect that, at least.
I fail to understand why people are getting their panties in a knot over “taking a knee” in support of demonstrations of police reform. A bright line is being drawn over it describing it as keeling in submission to something bad instead of a symbol that police require reform.
What’s the difference between people who were cheering healthcare workers as they left hospitals for home? Were they somehow cheering in submission to conformity for a terrible cause? Oh, the cheering crowds didn’t “take a knee?” WTF. Creating a problem over nothing.
If you don’t want to kneel, fluck it, don’t. But the opposition to kneeling for the reasons stated sounds like empty politics and worse. Why do you all really care if dergon wants to show he supports police reform? What part about you all does that bother so intensely? “Light chains” These are extremely silly arguments.
Earlier in this thread or elsewhere, there were complaints about partisanship and division. This is the creation and careful maintenance of that partisanship and division. And it’s not dergon who is doing the partisanship and dividing.
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[link=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/public-health-experts-are-not-hypocrites/612853/]https://www.theatlantic.c…not-hypocrites/612853/[/link]
Public-Health Experts Are Not Hypocrites
Health is about more than simply remaining free of coronavirus infection.
Ultimately, the critics of public-health experts are right about one thing: Public health does have an ideology, one that is rooted in the understanding that health is determined not only by physiology and pathogens, but also by social forces, including systemic racism.
The article is worth a read.
The article addresses the criticism of public health officials as being hypocritical due to political bias by saying yes, we do have the bias you criticize us of, and we are justified in it because our political cause is worthy.
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Come on, Frumi. “Taking a knee” has a connotation of subservience and submission whereas “cheering” does not. There are some physical gestures like “taking a knee” that some people will refuse to do no matter what, just out of the connotation of it. Nothing to do with race, etc. There are also the videos online of some people being made to “take a knee” to embarrass and ridicule them. This goes back to what I said before that a lot of people feel that equality isn’t the goal, but the goal is reverse inequality or at minimum, make white people feel guilty about how they were born, etc.
Personally, I will never let anyone guilt me into feeling bad about anything that I can’t control (my age, gender, race, religion, etc.) and I don’t take a knee for anyone or anything. And, that should be okay and I should not be labeled racist for that. The fact that I could tweet that statement and be fired by a liberal company is as big of a problem as any other. -
Quote from radgrinder
[link=https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/public-health-experts-are-not-hypocrites/612853/]https://www.theatlantic.c…not-hypocrites/612853/[/link]
Public-Health Experts Are Not Hypocrites
Health is about more than simply remaining free of coronavirus infection.
Ultimately, the critics of public-health experts are right about one thing: Public health does have an ideology, one that is rooted in the understanding that health is determined not only by physiology and pathogens, but also by social forces, including systemic racism.
The article is worth a read.
The article addresses the criticism of public health officials as being hypocritical due to political bias by saying yes, we do have the bias you criticize us of, and we are justified in it because our political cause is worthy.
Good read!
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I guess I’m missing the point about taking a knee. To me equality is no one on their knees.
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Quote from Frumious
I fail to understand why people are getting their panties in a knot over “taking a knee” in support of demonstrations of police reform. A bright line is being drawn over it describing it as keeling in submission to something bad instead of a symbol that police require reform.
What’s the difference between people who were cheering healthcare workers as they left hospitals for home? Were they somehow cheering in submission to conformity for a terrible cause? Oh, the cheering crowds didn’t “take a knee?” WTF. Creating a problem over nothing.
If you don’t want to kneel, fluck it, don’t. But the opposition to kneeling for the reasons stated sounds like empty politics and worse. Why do you all really care if dergon wants to show he supports police reform? What part about you all does that bother so intensely? “Light chains” These are extremely silly arguments.
Earlier in this thread or elsewhere, there were complaints about partisanship and division. This is the creation and careful maintenance of that partisanship and division. And it’s not dergon who is doing the partisanship and dividing.
Oh, come on. Stop being disingenuous, nobody is buying it. Kneeling is a sign of tacit support of BLM, a DNC front group. Kneeling is a sign of submission in every culture on the planet, so equating that to cheering healthcare workers (another empty feel-good gesture, BTW) is just ridiculous.
If dergon wants to kneel in submission to the social-justice warrior woke-mob on his own, fine ‘n dandy. But if it is made overtly or covertly mandatory by his employer, that’s another kettle of fish entirely.
If that happened where I work, as a pasty white dude I’d be having a chat with HR and an employment attorney about a hostile workplace environment. Maybe I could get a big payout and retire early….
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If you want to support police reform, vote out the democrats who strengthen the public sector unions that shield bad cops.
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Quote from fw
If you want to support police reform, vote out the democrats who strengthen the public sector unions that shield bad cops.
This x1000 and same thing with education and teacher’s unions.-
Quote from Cubsfan10
Quote from fw
If you want to support police reform, vote out the democrats who strengthen the public sector unions that shield bad cops.
This x1000 and same thing with education and teacher’s unions.
I was not aware that teachers were killing their students and then were protected by their unions for the killings by arguing the student has a prior condition that led to them dying. And other excuses.
Conflating BS.
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Quote from fw
If you want to support police reform, vote out the democrats who strengthen the public sector unions that shield bad cops.
Come on fw, police only misbehave in Blue states and cities? You know that’s far from true.
As for public sector unions, Scott Walker was extremely careful not to disturb the police unions when he went after public sector unions.
Gee, I wonder why.-
Quote from Frumious
Quote from fw
If you want to support police reform, vote out the democrats who strengthen the public sector unions that shield bad cops.
Come on fw, police only misbehave in Blue states and cities? You know that’s far from true.
I made no such claim.
But when the issue of police brutality comes up, is rarely the Oklahoma state patrol or some sheriffs deputy in South Dakota that needs investigating. It’s the democrat run cities that have the bulk of the police brutality problem. Baltimore, NYC, Philli, LA etc.
The first problem is that police departments are responsible to the mayor, not the citizens. Less of an issue where law enforcement is done by a elected sherifff. When our local sheriff was slow to react to a case of alleged excessive force, the local african american community primaried him and replaced him with a black guy from the departments internal affairs division.
As for public sector unions, Scott Walker was extremely careful not to disturb the police unions when he went after public sector unions.
Gee, I wonder why.
Non sequitur.-
Most Agree with Football Players Right to Protest
–A new Yahoo News/YouGov poll finds that 52% of Americans agree that it is fine for NFL players to kneel during the national anthem to protest police killings of African Americans. Just 36% of respondents say its inappropriate and 12% were not sure.
In 2018, only 35% agreed with players right to protest.
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Quote from fw
Quote from Frumious
Quote from fw
If you want to support police reform, vote out the democrats who strengthen the public sector unions that shield bad cops.
Come on fw, police only misbehave in Blue states and cities? You know that’s far from true.
I made no such claim.
But when the issue of police brutality comes up, is rarely the Oklahoma state patrol or some sheriffs deputy in South Dakota that needs investigating. It’s the democrat run cities that have the bulk of the police brutality problem. Baltimore, NYC, Philli, LA etc.
The first problem is that police departments are responsible to the mayor, not the citizens. Less of an issue where law enforcement is done by a elected sherifff. When our local sheriff was slow to react to a case of alleged excessive force, the local african american community primaried him and replaced him with a black guy from the departments internal affairs division.
As for public sector unions, Scott Walker was extremely careful not to disturb the police unions when he went after public sector unions.
Gee, I wonder why.
Non sequitur.
And that sheriff was slow to address excessive force? And the replacement is what? Just black, nothing else? And the black community was wrong replacing the sheriff because…why?
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Quote from Frumious
And that sheriff was slow to address excessive force? And the replacement is what? Just black, nothing else? And the black community was wrong replacing the sheriff because…why?
Did I say this was wrong ? It illustrates that the system of the elected sheriff gives the citizens an opportunity to address problems in the police leadership. From what I can tell, the new guy is doing a good job. Very approachable. There have yet to be any events that would challenge him, even the rioting was pretty much a non-event. We’ll see how he performs if one of his officers beats the crap out of someone.
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Step aside imaging societies … your efforts are no longer needed….
[b]Trump Says Hell End Racism ‘Very Quickly’ and Very Easily[/b][/h1]
President Trump says America will be done with bigotry and prejudice before we know it, [link=https://theweek.com/speedreads/919595/trump-predicts-america-overcome-racism-quickly-easily]The Week[/link] reports.
Trump traveled to Dallas for a roundtable on race and policing, though didnt invite the top three law enforcement officials in the area, all of whom are black.
Trump defended police departments and offered up an executive order that he said will help repair Americas centuries of racism very quickly and very easily.-
[link=https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-paw-patrol-get-canceled/]https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-paw-patrol-get-canceled/[/link]
At least Paw Patrol wasn’t really cancelled.
An issue with Trump is his overall lack of leadership during this time. Not sure anyone one the left or right could do better (he ran on the Republican ticket, but I doubt he holds ideals of either party, just his own).
Anyone like LBJ around these days?
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Oh, come on. Stop being disingenuous, nobody is buying it. Kneeling is a sign of tacit support of BLM, a DNC front group. Kneeling is a sign of submission in every culture on the planet, so equating that to cheering healthcare workers (another empty feel-good gesture, BTW) is just ridiculous.
If dergon wants to kneel in submission to the social-justice warrior woke-mob on his own, fine ‘n dandy. But if it is made overtly or covertly mandatory by his employer, that’s another kettle of fish entirely.
If that happened where I work, as a pasty white dude I’d be having a chat with HR and an employment attorney about a hostile workplace environment. Maybe I could get a big payout and retire early….
A “DNC front group???”
Subservience? To whom, black democrats?
Well, we can’t have that can we.
No one – repeat – NO ONE is demanding you take a knee. You do not have to take or knee or support Democrats or BLM or anything.
But subservience? I see these opposition arguments as conformity.
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Quote from Frumious
A “DNC front group???”
“Black Lives Matter” is a money-laundering scheme for the DNC. Donations (including corporate money) to BLM go through “ActBlue Charities”. “ActBlue” donates exclusively to Democrat candidates, including $186 million to Sanders and $119 million to the Biden campaign. Black Lives Matter is a scam.
Quote from Frumious
Subservience? To whom, black democrats?
Well, we can’t have that can we.
Again, you deliberately obfuscate and mischaracterize. I never said “black democrats”. I specifically said the woke-mob, of which BLM is an integral part.
Quote from Frumious
No one – repeat – NO ONE is demanding you take a knee. You do not have to take or knee or support Democrats or BLM or anything.
Drew Brees might beg to differ….
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Drew Brees isn’t being asked to take a knee.
He’s being asked to acknowledge that he understands that taking a knee isn’t inherently disrespectful to the flag and isn’t inherently unpatriotic.
His most recent public statements would make one believe that he now does. (Although one could potentially doubt the veracity of the most recent comments given the political backlash he faced … so he may be commenting under duress)-
Brees is certainly under duress. Lot of threats.
In regard to the Atlantic article, I think that publicly confirming public health officials as arbiters of the worthiness of social justice causes carries a lot of downsides that the authors do not acknowledge.
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Quote from dergon
Drew Brees isn’t being asked to take a knee.
He’s being asked to acknowledge that he understands that taking a knee isn’t inherently disrespectful to the flag and isn’t inherently unpatriotic.
His most recent public statements would make one believe that he now does. (Although one could potentially doubt the veracity of the most recent comments given the political backlash he faced … so he may be commenting under duress)
And why should he? The act by definition is an attempt to disrespect and gain attention, that’s why it’s done. Why do we need to keep promoting lies? Everything surrounding Kaepernick is a lie. If he truly cared about human beings, he’d give back all the money made on the back of the real sweatshop slaves (the chinese) who made him and Nike millions and billions. Oh yeah, but just like the NBA, no one actually cares about other humans, it’s all a stunt for ego and furthering more lies. Same for Kerr and James, who were all of a sudden silent when the Hong Kong issue, that actually had to deal with real human rights abuses. The hard thing would have been to go against the flow (stand up for the truth), but there was too much money at stake. Truly, they have their reward.
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Frumious
Subservience? To whom, black democrats?
Well, we can’t have that can we.Again, you deliberately obfuscate and mischaracterize. I never said “black democrats”. I specifically said the woke-mob, of which BLM is an integral part.
“Black” because the B in BLM does stand for BLACK. I thought it was obvious.Quote from Frumious
No one – repeat – NO ONE is demanding you take a knee. You do not have to take or knee or support Democrats or BLM or anything.
Drew Brees might beg to differ….
Seriously? You mold & measure your life around what Drew Brees wants you to do?
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I mentioned education because it is also an entity with problems due to unions.
Drew Brees and others are definitely being targeted.
Taking a knee is whatever you want it to be but you shouldn’t expect it as tribute to your movement and you shouldn’t do it during the national anthem. There are tons of other times to take a knee. A lot of us hold the anthem and the flag very dear and doing ANYTHING during that time (talking, waving, cheering, etc.) is deemed disrespectful. Nothing to do with race or anything. Just not the right time.-
Not really worried about Drew Brees.
Worried more about all the folks who couldnt have or attend a funeral for a loved one, missed birthday parties, anniversaries and so on, couldnt see a parent in hospice or a home. They followed the rules because they trusted public health officials, to great personal cost.
Now its well, those rules are fungible based upon the public health officials personal preferences and perception of social justice.
So we dont consider the death of your mother sufficient cause to break protocol and allow funeral attendance, but this or that social cause which we deem worthy…sure.
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Agree with RG. It’s a shame Trump has all of his issues…this moment deserves a good leader. The guy hiding in the basement isn’t it either, btw.
Also, while I agree that you have to be careful about unsolicited opinions, I don’t like that one side is able to pretty much say whatever they want, no matter how radical, while the other side must “conform or be cancelled.” The creep of “hate speech” has continued to grow considerably and is going too far imo. The Left has realized that as long as they say “I’m offended” then they can get their way, not dissimilar to a small child stamping his/her foot.
Removing Gone with the Wind from HBO when it had the first black Oscar winner in it.
Lady Antebellum feeling they had to change their name to Lady A because Antebellum was racist
Drew Brees not being able to say he stands for the flag and what it represents without being labeled a racist
Tom Cotton’s op ed being removed, ridiculed, and him being called a racist/fascist/etc.
These are small potatoes one by one but represent the growing trend.-
Quote from Cubsfan10
Removing Gone with the Wind from HBO when it had the first black Oscar winner in it.
Is that why HBO did this, to remove the award from Hattie McDaniel?
This idea is straight out of Infowars.-
Quote from Frumious
Quote from Cubsfan10
Removing Gone with the Wind from HBO when it had the first black Oscar winner in it.
Is that why HBO did this, to remove the award from Hattie McDaniel?
This idea is straight out of Infowars.
I didn’t say that was the reason. Do you support removing it? Removing other “hate” movies? Who decides?-
If I could clarify this issue. They have taken it out of their library until they can come up w statements of historical context. It still is ridiculous given the types of other movies and shows HBO makes all kinds of money on.
Pretty scary now that even the entertainment and arts are under attack. -
Quote from Cubsfan10
Quote from Frumious
Quote from Cubsfan10
Removing Gone with the Wind from HBO when it had the first black Oscar winner in it.
Is that why HBO did this, to remove the award from Hattie McDaniel?
This idea is straight out of Infowars.
I didn’t say that was the reason. Do you support removing it? Removing other “hate” movies? Who decides?
You said:
Removing Gone with the Wind from HBO when it had the first black Oscar winner in it.
So whats your point if you think theres no connection?
And no, I do not support pulling it. Everyone knows whats in the movie just as much as they know whats in Mark Twains books. The movie & the books refer to the reality of the times.
Now I believe Birth Of A Nation has definite problems about national distribution.
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Gone with the Wind was not racist, at least not intended that way 50 years agao, when we lacked the proper sensibilities. We just didn’t know better.
Much like the 1996 film, Independence Day. It doesn’t look racist now. But wait 1000 years when we start asimilating intergalactic aliens. Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum will look like genocidal maniacs.
Everyone thinks they’re so much more sensible and better than their ancestors.
We were stupid. But dont judge the past and think you’re somehow better. Because in all likelihood, we’re likely committing the same mistakes.
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Quote from Frumious
“Black” because the B in BLM does stand for BLACK. I thought it was obvious.
Geez, this is what, strawman #4 or 5? And nice try at your thinly-veiled attempt at painting me as a racist. That dog won’t hunt though, Skippy; so no points for that…Quote from Frumious
Seriously? You mold & measure your life around what Drew Brees wants you to do?
Nope, putting forth a counterfactual, as you are well aware. Strawman #6, I think, Skip.
Look, Skip, I realize you lefties sincerely hate it when someone challenges your smelly little orthodoxies, being so smugly confident of your moral superiority and all, but you should really try to keep your head instead of descending into sputtering incoherence. Keep trying, though, this is fun.
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Quote from ExNavyDoc
Look, Skip, I realize you lefties sincerely hate it when someone challenges your smelly little orthodoxies, being so smugly confident of your moral superiority and all, but you should really try to keep your head instead of descending into sputtering incoherence. Keep trying, though, this is fun.
Hey, no need to get aggressively defensive just because you thought the Rambo movies were documentaries. Which apparently is in line with all your other beliefs.
Infowars!
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If I were Drew Brees, I’d take the knee. Just to get the idiots off my back. Doesn’t cost anything. Not doing so would cost me a lot by contrast. Now tell me again how he is “not being forced.”
In front of a camera, of course, with as many reporters and politicians in attendance as possible. Strange times we live in. Lots of idiotic P.C. fluff. What does taking the knee accomplish really?
Not to take away from the reality that racism is a problem. Overt and concealed. Direct and indirect.
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Doctors encouraging and publicizing “kneeling” is the tantamount to acquiescence with the mob. This is the mob that has in real life recreated movie scenes from Escape from New York in some of America’s largest cities. Kneeling is stoking fire of race hustlers and ineffectual socialists democrats looking to loot the pockets of those who obey the law.
Mid-Town Manhattan and Seattle are the ultimate desires of Democrats evolution; it’s their dream of the A City upon a Hill-Lovely isnt it.-
Sure Drew Brees is being targeted. But he brought it upon himself with his own unsolicited statements.
That said, political/ social movements do indeed look to put pressure on elected officials, corporations, and
Public/ media figures. Because when those people publicly change positions it can subsequently move opinion and lead to real change.
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Cancel culture is alive. Telling us what can and can’t watch, say, or read. Everyone lines up to follow. Little kids photographed by parents w sign pointing at them saying white privilege. Other parents telling their kids they should feel guilty.
In another post someone asked about murdered retired police Capt Dorn and why not a lot of attention. Easy answer. He was black and his alleged killer was black as was the other looters in the store captured on camera. Does not fit their narrative. This group thought is insane. -
Ha. “Welcome to Earth!”
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Could you even imagine the reaction if a bunch of MAGA hat wearing Trump supporters took over 6 city blocks of a major city?
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Oh it would be leading every news channel 24/7.
As it stands, we have a leftist warlord who has taken over part of a major American city. What a year.
There is about a 158% chance we are treated to reports of tribute seeking, assaults, trials for infractions and so on. Extrajudicial executions if it goes on long enough.
I hope there is a documentary crew embedded.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Could you even imagine the reaction if a bunch of MAGA hat wearing Trump supporters took over 6 city blocks of a major city?
Honestly, right now if that happened I think there would be a violent reaction/response. Not by the police. By the same people who were throwing Molotov cocktails in NYC.
A couple of quotes that I find apt:
Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe.
Theodore RooseveltTheres nothing quite as frightening as someone who knows they are right.
Michael Faraday
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Could you even imagine the reaction if a bunch of MAGA hat wearing Trump supporters took over 6 city blocks of a major city?
At least they’d probably leave it cleaner than they found it….-
Quote from ExNavyDoc
Quote from Cubsfan10
Could you even imagine the reaction if a bunch of MAGA hat wearing Trump supporters took over 6 city blocks of a major city?
At least they’d probably leave it cleaner than they found it….
Ummmmm…tinfoil hats.
[link=https://www.nj.com/news/j66j-2020/01/e94812bb778746/beach-chairs-blankets-and-trash-massive-mess-left-after-trumps-wildwood-rally.html]https://www.nj.com/news/j…ps-wildwood-rally.html[/link]
[link=https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/os-pictures2-camp-trump-amway-cleanup-20190619-mf5oo6gsfjazhk2xfcr66k34ju-photogallery.html]https://www.orlandosentin…34ju-photogallery.html[/link]
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[link=https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Black-Privilege/Charlamagne-Tha-God/9781501145315]https://www.simonandschus…-Tha-God/9781501145315[/link]
True. -
[link=https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Black-Privilege/Charlamagne-Tha-God/9781501145315]https://www.simonandschus…-Tha-God/9781501145315[/link]
True. -
Quote from Frumious
Ummmmm…tinfoil hats.
[link=https://www.nj.com/news/j66j-2020/01/e94812bb778746/beach-chairs-blankets-and-trash-massive-mess-left-after-trumps-wildwood-rally.html]https://www.nj.com/news/j…ps-wildwood-rally.html[/link]
[link=https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/os-pictures2-camp-trump-amway-cleanup-20190619-mf5oo6gsfjazhk2xfcr66k34ju-photogallery.html]https://www.orlandosentin…34ju-photogallery.html[/link]
Disgraceful, if true. The Tea Party people were usually better than that.
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