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Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows
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Bill “the explainer” Clinton agrees with the Republicans!!! He has told the obummer to let the people keep their insurance if they like it, and that young people who are essential to the socialistic re-distribution plan are unable to participate, or maybe have opted to not participate. Finally, after all this time, there is a thread of sanity in the demo-crite pack of wolves. We have been telling America that this obummercare fiasco is a well,,,fiasco, and it was going to break the bank. Legacy ???? Yeah!!! A legacy of failure, division and economic disaster. Bet our extreme lib friends on these threads will be spinning like a spider on crack. I know old soapy will.
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I would speculate that Bill being so candid about his opinion means he isn’t too far out in front in of the White House.
Get ready for Obama to propose some “common sense changes” to allow high deductible individual market plans to be kept for a year or two more with a slower transition or a change to some of the minimum provisions needed.
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well, given that Bill did not get health care reform and spent his second term fighting against impeachment…I think Obamma should be given a break on this and no it’s not because he is luckier than a dog(please Bill keep it classy)
Quote from dergon
I would speculate that Bill being so candid about his opinion means he isn’t too far out in front in of the White House.
Get ready for Obama to propose some “common sense changes” to allow high deductible individual market plans to be kept for a year or two more with a slower transition or a change to some of the minimum provisions needed.
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Quote from Point Man
Bill “the explainer” Clinton agrees with the Republicans!!! He has told the obummer to let the people keep their insurance if they like it, and that young people who are essential to the socialistic re-distribution plan are unable to participate, or maybe have opted to not participate.
A perfect example of how clueless you really are.
First, the people CAN keep their insurance if they like it AS LONG AS the insurance companies continue to offer those policies. It is the INSURANCE COMPANIES that have elected to cancel those policies and has NOTHING to do with ACA. But you can’t seem to understand that simple point. And so one thing that can be proposed is to FORCE the insurance companies to maintain their old plans for, say, the next three years. But there is no way you can try to convince anyone that the right wing would let that fly. They’ll start flailing their arms about socialist Obama requiring companies to offer this or that product, and you’ll start shouting about the free enterprise system, yada yada. Who do you think you’re fooling?
Second, “young people” (I assume you mean “healthy young people who are clueless to the value of medical insurance”) already CAN opt out by simply paying $95/yr for the privilege.
Third, it is simply not possible for people to opt out without penalty because SCOTUS has already ruled the legality of the congressional act and the law must be enforced. And you know darn well that there is no way the House GOP will allow Obama to get a law passed that improves ACA by requiring insurance companies to continue offering their older plans instead of canceling them. So are you claiming that insurance companies should continue their older sub-standard plans just so that people won’t have to change to a better policy? Because that’s what this amounts to. Ain’t gonna happen.
Regarding whether Obama lied, there has been NOTHING presented that shows Obama deliberately tried to mislead people. Nothing indicated to him that insurance companies would flock to cancel older policies as a ploy to have one last shot at gouging people by trying to force more expensive “compliant” plans on them. This is something insurance companies decided to do unilaterally.
Look, everyone knows that when a new imaging system is introduced with higher signal-to-noise and better detection, the FDA rightly claims that you may continue to stick with your older sub-standard system even though it’s not “compliant” with new best practice standards. BUT, if your [i][u]vendor[/u][/i] then announces that they’re unilaterally discontinuing parts and service on that system to the point where you’re forced to buy a newer “compliant” system, that doesn’t mean the FDA lied to you!
Pointless [i][u]AND[/u][/i] Clueless Man.
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Quote from Lux
Quote from Point Man
Bill “the explainer” Clinton agrees with the Republicans!!! He has told the obummer to let the people keep their insurance if they like it, and that young people who are essential to the socialistic re-distribution plan are unable to participate, or maybe have opted to not participate.
A perfect example of how clueless you really are.
First, the people CAN keep their insurance if they like it AS LONG AS the insurance companies continue to offer those policies. It is the INSURANCE COMPANIES that have elected to cancel those policies and has NOTHING to do with ACA. But you can’t seem to understand that simple point.
[b]LIE. The ACA forced the insurance companies to cancel those policies because they didn’t adhere to the guidelines that Obama and his crew thought were necessary.[/b]
Second, “young people” (I assume you mean “healthy young people who are clueless to the value of medical insurance”) already CAN opt out by simply paying $95/yr for the privilege.
[b]MISLEADING. That is $95 or 1% of income, whichever is greater for 2014. By 2016 that becomes $695 or 2.5%, whichever is greater. That doesn’t include the per child fine, either.[/b]
Third, it is simply not possible for people to opt out without penalty because SCOTUS has already ruled the legality of the congressional act and the law must be enforced.
[b]MISLEADING. The supreme court actually violated the constitution by changing the law. This bill was advertised as a fine, not tax. Tax bills must originate in the house of reps. this did not. SCOTUS allowed this bill to stand as a tax bill, not a fine. These two facts are not in dispute. [/b]
[b]Also, it is quite telling that liberals state that this law must stand because the supreme court says it is constitutional, yet they want to change the second amendment, utter nary a peep when Obama decides not to enforce laws already on the books regarding border security, privacy, and marriage, say nothing when admin officials commit perjury, and are trying to overturn Citizens United.[/b]
[b][/b]
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Quote from radmike
[b]The ACA forced the insurance companies to cancel those policies because they didn’t adhere to the guidelines that Obama and his crew thought were necessary.[/b]
Boloney.
Insurance companies were forced to do no such thing.
You are simply incorrect.
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And if Bill Clinton, notorious liar, has to tell you to keep your promises then you know you are in trouble.
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Quote from radmike
And if Bill Clinton, notorious liar, has to tell you to keep your promises then you know you are in trouble.
Now who’s deflecting, huh? Stick to the point. There is no evidence that Obama deliberately misled Americans, and there is NOTHING in ACA that “forces” insurance companies to cancel their older policies.
For God’s sake, present evidence or just shut the hell up, for crying out loud.
The baseless, incessant whining from you guys is becoming sickening.
Enough is enough. You’re just a broken record at this point.-
You are now making yourself look foolish. Try reading the news rather than watching John Stewart. You have again started to bore me. Please try to prepare for our next discussion. Gotta read some films.
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[b]
The supreme court actually violated the constitution by changing the law. This bill was advertised as a fine, not tax. Tax bills must originate in the house of reps. this did not. SCOTUS allowed this bill to stand as a tax bill, not a fine. These two facts are not in dispute. [/b]
That has been discussed before (in this thread I think). The Origination Clause violation is a pretty shaky legal argument and not likely to make it too far.
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No Lux, YOU are wrong.
The regulations were written in such a way that almost no existing policy met the requirement criteria. This was a de-facto forced cancellation. As a matter of fact, a bill introduced in Congress to specifically prevent this was unanimously voted down by the Democ-rats.
Go back to the tall grass. There is nowhere else for you ACA proponents to hide now.-
Quote from aldadoc
No Lux, YOU are wrong.
The regulations were written in such a way that almost no existing policy met the requirement criteria. This was a de-facto forced cancellation. As a matter of fact, a bill introduced in Congress to specifically prevent this was unanimously voted down by the Democ-rats.Go back to the tall grass. There is nowhere else for you ACA proponents to hide now.
[b]Wrong Wrong Wrong.[/b]
The “bill introduced by Congress” was the one that decreed if people’s insurance plan was change IN ANY WAY, then they could not keep it if the plan remained non-compliant. YOU are the one out of touch with the law, my friend.
Show me the law and I will graciously rescind. Until then, I’m holding my ground on this; you’re simply incorrect.
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Really? Republicans had a bill to require private insurance companies to forever keep all policies in place as of 2010?
The bigger reality is the insurance companies are largely doing this to extract more profits; if it wasn’t PPACA, they would have found another excuse as they always have-
You guys are playing cute semantics games again. Progressive’s torture of the language is what got us into this mess to begin with, playing cute with words.
Bottom line, the bill voted down by the Democrats would have prevented the mass cancellations, but the regime wanted people’s insurances to be cancelled in order to force them into the exchanges, so they stuck with the very tight wording of the ACA, preventing any change that would have mitigated the inevitable cancellations.
The chickens are coming home to roost. Liberals own this debacle. Spin away my friends, you are just digging yourselves deeper and deeper into the hole by siding with pathological liars.-
Heritage Society are Socialists, Cardiac?
Who’d a thunk.
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Quote from Frumious
Heritage Society are Socialists, Cardiac?
Who’d a thunk.
Its Heritage Foundation if you wanted to know. Won’t call THEM communists, or Romney, but the idea IS socialistic.
You Communists on this board, and you know who you are, I think are truely sincere in what you believe. Not that you care what I think about you, but Ill give you that benefit of the doubt. You guys are so bound up intestinally that theres badness and poverty in the world, and you have to DO something to make yourself feel better about it. So you support communistic redistribution of wealth so people like ME can pay for Your guilt. Too bad the leaders you support in your guilty wallowing only want power and hand out gifts paid for by ME to get it. Thanks a lot, but no thanks.
Heritage Foundation fell into a similar trap. They got the bug up their backsides that Healthcare had to be paid by government, and they came up with this communistic plan. And Romney caught the same bug. Happy?
When the government controls your healthcare, it controls your life. Yeah, we ain’t there yet, but when they declare the ACA dead on arrival, and the insurance companies have been trashed, YOUR savior, the Almightly Federal Government, and High Priest Barack will step in to “save” us with single payer. You know it, you long for it, you can’t wait for it to happen. But when it does, we ALL choke on it.-
[b]You Communists on this board, and you know who you are[/b]
According to you winguts anyone to the left of the tea party is now a communist
That is why your kind is smaller and smaller in numbers
Just like Sarah Palin, You mental midgets don’t even have the capacity to distinguish communism from socialism from facism from capitalism
You throw around buzzwords you hear from Talk radio and pseudo news.
Its really quite amusing seeing the ignorance of rural america
Hey earl sounds goods to me heard it on the TEE VEE……sounds good to me. DERRRRRRRRRRr
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Its Heritage Foundation if you wanted to know. Won’t call THEM communists, or Romney, but the idea IS socialistic.
Quote from CardiacEvent
So sorry your commmunist wet dream ACA is impolding in your face.
Kpack123 is right. You guys only know “whacky extreme conservative”. Everything else is just a liberal/socialist/communist blur on your cave walls. As are anything resembling facts.
It makes no sense to argue about it. We will soon find out for sure despite your inflammatory aldo-esque fear mongering.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Quote from Frumious
Heritage Society are Socialists, Cardiac?
Who’d a thunk.
Its Heritage Foundation if you wanted to know. Won’t call THEM communists, or Romney, but the idea IS socialistic.
You Communists on this board, and you know who you are, I think are truely sincere in what you believe. Not that you care what I think about you, but Ill give you that benefit of the doubt. You guys are so bound up intestinally that theres badness and poverty in the world, and you have to DO something to make yourself feel better about it. So you support communistic redistribution of wealth so people like ME can pay for Your guilt. Too bad the leaders you support in your guilty wallowing only want power and hand out gifts paid for by ME to get it. Thanks a lot, but no thanks.
Heritage Foundation fell into a similar trap. They got the bug up their backsides that Healthcare had to be paid by government, and they came up with this communistic plan. And Romney caught the same bug. Happy?
When the government controls your healthcare, it controls your life. Yeah, we ain’t there yet, but when they declare the ACA dead on arrival, and the insurance companies have been trashed, YOUR savior, the Almightly Federal Government, and High Priest Barack will step in to “save” us with single payer. You know it, you long for it, you can’t wait for it to happen. But when it does, we ALL choke on it.
So you’ve moved to cash payments only? You accept no insurance or Medicare payments to make sure you are not infected in any way by socialistic/communist policies? That, by the way makes you very affluent compared to the common Joe who pays for your entitlement. Very communistic to make the elite affluent at proletariat expense you know.
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Glad you agree
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Glad you agree
Obviously he was being sarcastic.
But I’m actually wondering if you can tell the difference.
Do you depend on The Onion for your daily news, too? -
Look, the fact that they keep getting caught in their own logical contradictions is clear proof that they’re just a bunch of bigoted hypocrites. Look at how desperate Pointless has become–he doesn’t even bother to present information anymore because of all the contradictions he’s tripped over. Aldadoc belongs in his tomato patch where he can’t hurt himself, and Cardiac is on the verge of spontaneous combustion from the friction caused by all the ideological contradictions he puts himself in.
They complain all day about redistribution of wealth and yet cannot accept the fact that they have sweetly and completely embraced it and, in fact, DEPEND on it for their way of life.
None of those hypocrites are worthy of debating, really. Especially since history will play out and we will soon know for sure.
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Quote from aldadoc
Bottom line, the bill voted down by the Democrats would have prevented the mass cancellations, but the regime wanted people’s insurances to be cancelled in order to force them into the exchanges, so they stuck with the very tight wording of the ACA, preventing any change that would have mitigated the inevitable cancellations.
Alda is correct here. The success of the ACA exchanges depends upon getting young healthier people into the exchanges. This includes both the previously uninsured and those who were in private market plans that didn’t meet criteria.
The GOP House now has the “Keep your health plan act” on the table. It is probably good for the GOP politically because it forces democrats to vote against something that a) sounds reasonable and b) was orignially promised by the president. It also allows the GOP to [i]appear to [/i] move away (just a bit) from the “defund it/repeal it or nothing!” stand that cost them status during the last shutdown fight. But, it isn’t [i]really[/i] an attempt at a fix, it’s an attempt to kill the ACA using a new approach.
The “Keep your health plan act” can’t be allowed to pass because it is really just a move to destroy the ACA.
…if insurers were able to keep the vast majority of plans in place, the effects on the overall insurance market would be very problematic. Cheap, bare bone plans are popular with young, healthy Americans who dont expect to use much health insurance. Even without the subsidies, many of these plans would look financially advantageous, and many existing insureds in these plans would keep them instead of entering the ACA’s risk pools.
This would increase the risk of an insurance “death spiral.” The House bill still keeps the guaranteed issue and community rating provisions of the law: That is, insurers must offer health insurance to everyone regardless of health status and are tightly restricted in their ability to vary premiums. That deal is going to be very appealing to people with high health costs, and it’s important that young and healthy people also buy insurance through the ACA exchanges in order to cross-subsidize those eager, sick buyers.
Obamacare includes a carrot (subsidies) and a stick (individual mandate) to convince young people to sign up for health insurance to offset the increased costs of covering old, unhealthy people. The House act undermines the value of the carrot by allowing young people cheaper options outside of the exchange. This would skew risk pools inside the exchanges to be older and unhealthier, leading to higher premiums over time.”
[link=http://www.businessinsider.com/the-house-is-proposing-an-obamacare-bill-that-would-be-an-even-bigger-mess-than-repeal-2013-11#ixzz2kXw0049E]http://www.businessinsider.com/the-house-is-proposing-an-obamacare-bill-that-would-be-an-even-bigger-mess-than-repeal-2013-11#ixzz2kXw0049E[/link]
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Quote from radmike
[b]That is $95 or 1% of income, whichever is greater for 2014. By 2016 that becomes $695 or 2.5%, whichever is greater. That doesn’t include the per child fine, either.[/b]
And rightly so. Within 3 years there will be enough competition thanks to the free market system so that everyone will be able to appropriately adjust their spending pattern to easily accommodate any change in healthcare pricing. That includes how much these young healthy kids spend on bad habits, how much people eat/drink out, how often they replace their perfectly functioning TV set, how much they really need to spend on a monthly car payment, etc. etc.
There is no way you can defend luxury spending as an excuse for not being able to afford decent health coverage.
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Quote from radmike
[b]The supreme court actually violated the constitution by changing the law. This bill was advertised as a fine, not tax. Tax bills must originate in the house of reps. this did not. SCOTUS allowed this bill to stand as a tax bill, not a fine. These two facts are not in dispute. [/b]
[b]Also, it is quite telling that liberals state that this law must stand because the supreme court says it is constitutional, yet they want to change the second amendment, utter nary a peep when Obama decides not to enforce laws already on the books regarding border security, privacy, and marriage, say nothing when admin officials commit perjury, and are trying to overturn Citizens United.[/b]Well then take SCOTUS to court for violating the US Constitution!!!
And where did you get the idea that [i]”liberals want to change the Second Amendment”[/i]?!
You’re beyond losing it, Mike.
You’ve already lost it.
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Amen
Quote from Lux
Quote from Point Man
Bill “the explainer” Clinton agrees with the Republicans!!! He has told the obummer to let the people keep their insurance if they like it, and that young people who are essential to the socialistic re-distribution plan are unable to participate, or maybe have opted to not participate.
A perfect example of how clueless you really are.
First, the people CAN keep their insurance if they like it AS LONG AS the insurance companies continue to offer those policies. It is the INSURANCE COMPANIES that have elected to cancel those policies and has NOTHING to do with ACA. But you can’t seem to understand that simple point. And so one thing that can be proposed is to FORCE the insurance companies to maintain their old plans for, say, the next three years. But there is no way you can try to convince anyone that the right wing would let that fly. They’ll start flailing their arms about socialist Obama requiring companies to offer this or that product, and you’ll start shouting about the free enterprise system, yada yada. Who do you think you’re fooling?
Second, “young people” (I assume you mean “healthy young people who are clueless to the value of medical insurance”) already CAN opt out by simply paying $95/yr for the privilege.
Third, it is simply not possible for people to opt out without penalty because SCOTUS has already ruled the legality of the congressional act and the law must be enforced. And you know darn well that there is no way the House GOP will allow Obama to get a law passed that improves ACA by requiring insurance companies to continue offering their older plans instead of canceling them. So are you claiming that insurance companies should continue their older sub-standard plans just so that people won’t have to change to a better policy? Because that’s what this amounts to. Ain’t gonna happen.
Regarding whether Obama lied, there has been NOTHING presented that shows Obama deliberately tried to mislead people. Nothing indicated to him that insurance companies would flock to cancel older policies as a ploy to have one last shot at gouging people by trying to force more expensive “compliant” plans on them. This is something insurance companies decided to do unilaterally.
Look, everyone knows that when a new imaging system is introduced with higher signal-to-noise and better detection, the FDA rightly claims that you may continue to stick with your older sub-standard system even though it’s not “compliant” with new best practice standards. BUT, if your [i][u]vendor[/u][/i] then announces that they’re unilaterally discontinuing parts and service on that system to the point where you’re forced to buy a newer “compliant” system, that doesn’t mean the FDA lied to you!
Pointless [i][u]AND[/u][/i] Clueless Man.
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Blackberry? Really?
He lied. Repeatedly.
And now he is lying about his lies.
At least he is consistent.-
sound desperate
Mitch kid’s were like oh he really did not want to win and now Mitch is saying they put all effort in to win…like really
Quote from radmike
Blackberry? Really?
He lied. Repeatedly.
And now he is lying about his lies.
At least he is consistent.-
Again, diversions from the subject at hand.
Head in Sand
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Are you now calling Obama or Carney a liar?
White House spokesman Jay Carney [link=http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/10/28/press-briefing-press-secretary-jay-carney-112813]put it[/link]: Its correct that substandard plans that dont provide minimum services that have a lot of fine print that leaves consumers in the lurch, often because of annual caps or lifetime caps or carve-outs for some preexisting conditions, those are no longer allowed because the Affordable Care Act is built on the premise that health care is not a privilege, its a right, and there should be minimum standards for the plans available to Americans across the country.
WP -
Quote from aldadoc
You guys are playing cute semantics games again. Progressive’s torture of the language is what got us into this mess to begin with, playing cute with words.
Bottom line, the bill voted down by the Democrats would have prevented the mass cancellations, but the regime wanted people’s insurances to be cancelled in order to force them into the exchanges, so they stuck with the very tight wording of the ACA, preventing any change that would have mitigated the inevitable cancellations.
The chickens are coming home to roost. Liberals own this debacle. Spin away my friends, you are just digging yourselves deeper and deeper into the hole by siding with pathological liars.
Frankly, time will tell just how flimsy your feverishly desperate argument really is.
It makes no sense to argue the point. The thing is law, GOP will certainly not take over all three branches any time so, and so the thing will definitely happen, and we will know whether it really is the success that the Democrats swear it is.
It’s not perfect, and it will be improved, and it will be logged as the seminal turning point that allowed the USA to catch up with the rest of the developed world after Greenspan helped collapse the global economy.
Time will tell.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Glad you agree
With what, that you are affluent due to communistic policies? That you rant against those policies while extending your hands to accept the benefits of those policies that make you affluent? You’re just worried that it’s a zero-sum game & there will be less pie for you?
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So we’re back to “you got rich by getting paid by government so don’t complain when THE STATE wants a big chunk back”.
I get paid FOR MY WORK, its not a handout.-
Quote from CardiacEvent
So we’re back to “you got rich by getting paid by government so don’t complain when THE STATE wants a big chunk back”.
I get paid FOR MY WORK, its not a handout.
Your reimbursement is determined by the communistic government and it is generous. So say “thank you” to the people when you receive your paycheck. Our taxes already help pay for your income. Your income is part of the “government expense” landscape. So your “chunk” comes from our chunks.
It’s all kind of intertwined in a socialistic network. Like the market. -
Quote from CardiacEvent
I get paid FOR MY WORK, its not a handout.
Listen to you — you get paid by WHO, Cardiac?!
Certainly not your patients!If you want to know how much you are truly worth in a NONsocialist economy, try living only on what your patients will pay you for your services. You’ll be lucky to maintain parity with your local veterinarian.
What a friggin’ hypocrite you continue to be!
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All you need to know…
Medicine is the keystone of the arch of socialism.
[link=http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/104630.Vladimir_Ilyich_Lenin]Vladimir Ilyich Lenin[/link]
Of course there is zero evidence Lenin ever said that
[link=http://books.google.com/books?id=UEGLO9YUecEC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&#v=onepage&q&f=false]http://books.google.com/books?id=UEGLO9YUecEC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&#v=onepage&q&f=false[/link]
Oh and back to the insurance pledge. it falls squarely on the private insurers who took advantage of the situation
First, it is important to note that the ACA grand-fathered all the individual policies that were in place at the time the law was enacted. This means that the plans in effect at the time that President Obama was pushing the bill could still be offered even if they did not meet all the standards laid out in the ACA.
The plans being terminated because they don’t meet the minimal standards were all plans that insurers introduced after the passage of the ACA. Insurers introduced these plans knowing that they would not meet the standards that would come into effect in 2014. Insurers may not have informed their clients at the time they sold these plans that they would not be available after 2014 because they had designed a plan that did not comply with the ACA.
However if the insurers didn’t tell their clients that the new plans would only be available for a short period of time, the blame would seem to rest with the insurance companies, not the ACA. After all, President Obama did not promise people that he would keep insurers from developing new plans that will not comply with the provisions of the ACA.
[link=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/the-obama-pledge-on-keepi_b_4257519.html]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/the-obama-pledge-on-keepi_b_4257519.html[/link]-
Quote from Thor
All you need to know…
Medicine is the keystone of the arch of socialism.
[link=http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/104630.Vladimir_Ilyich_Lenin]Vladimir Ilyich Lenin[/link]Of course there is zero evidence Lenin ever said that
Indeed, and thank you for correcting my earlier “correction”. I made the blunder of believing his post that claimed Lenin did say something like that. I shoulda known better.
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[link=http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vladimir_lenin.html]http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vladimir_lenin.html[/link]
[link=http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/quotes.htm]http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/quotes.htm[/link]
See if you can find some you like better.
Like anything else on the internet, quote might not have vetted origins. No matter. Comrade Lux, Millionaire and Willing Payer of $400K in taxes is quite comfortable with the sentiment. This is what you guys want. Just admit it and go on.
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Here:
[link=http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-10-12/health/bs-md-marbella-lenin-20131012_1_lenin-socialized-medicine-health-care-reform-plan]http://articles.baltimore…ealth-care-reform-plan[/link]
“Would socialized medicine lead to socialization of other phases of American life?” began one of the pitches used in a massive advertising and lobbying effort. “Lenin thought so. He declared: ‘Socialized medicine is the keystone to the arch of the Socialized State.'”
That may sound like it was ripped from today’s headlines or at least, the debut this week of Fox News’ latest talking head, Dr. Ben Carson.
But although the retired Johns Hopkins neurosurgeon has been using the last sentence of that quote to trash Obamacare, it dates back more than 60 years from a pamphlet circulated in opposition to another president, Harry Truman, and his own attempt to expand health care coverage.
Some things really never change. Not only is the same red-scare flag being waved today, there’s this: Neither then or now, no one seems to have evidence that such a bon mot ever passed Lenin’s lips.
[b]”It was a completely made-up quote,” Princeton sociologist Paul Starr tells me.[/b]
In any event, Starr’s book details how the American Medical Association went full throttle against Truman, charging its members $25 each for a $1.5 million lobbying campaign against his call for a national health insurance system for everyone what we now would call a single-payer plan, or basically, Medicare for all ages.
Creeping socialism was a pretty convincing argument in the Cold War years, and the AMA’s political consultants organized meetings and put out pamphlets using the alleged Lenin quote.
But as Starr notes in his book, “The Library of Congress could not locate this quotation in Lenin’s writings.”
I reached out to David Walters, an administrator of an online Lenin archive, to see if he might find have better luck, but he too came up empty.
[b]Despite its fuzzy origins, the Lenin quote has persisted because it fits “the right-wing mythology,” Starr said.[/b]
[b]”It really is representative of a larger mythology that the American conservatives have come to believe in,” he said, “this idea that by providing a means for everyone to get health insurance is to undermine freedom. It’s crazy.”[/b]
[b]He notes that even if Lenin had said or believed this “keystone” theory, the quote still makes no sense in the current context: “What’s being offered isn’t socialism,” Starr said. “It’s private insurance that’s offered in the health care exchanges.”[/b]-
It amazes me how gullible these guys are spouting stuff that is so easily and quickly debunked in this day and age.
Oh and of course Obama “promised” you could keep your doctor so that means doctors can no longer retire or die…
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Quote from Thor
Oh and back to the insurance pledge. it falls squarely on the private insurers who took advantage of the situation
First, it is important to note that the ACA grand-fathered all the individual policies that were in place at the time the law was enacted. This means that the plans in effect at the time that President Obama was pushing the bill could still be offered even if they did not meet all the standards laid out in the ACA.
The plans being terminated because they don’t meet the minimal standards were all plans that insurers introduced after the passage of the ACA. Insurers introduced these plans knowing that they would not meet the standards that would come into effect in 2014. Insurers may not have informed their clients at the time they sold these plans that they would not be available after 2014 because they had designed a plan that did not comply with the ACA.
However if the insurers didn’t tell their clients that the new plans would only be available for a short period of time, the blame would seem to rest with the insurance companies, not the ACA. After all, President Obama did not promise people that he would keep insurers from developing new plans that will not comply with the provisions of the ACA.Thanks for verifying that. It is indeed as I said earlier, despite the tussle with the Faux bullies earlier in this discussion.
Radmike, aldadoc, and Cardiac have no facts on their side, so they try like hell to prevail through intimidation and fabrication which they are finding to be futile in an anonymous discussion like this, where they are completely stripped of the authority they have grown to feel entitled to in their daily lives.
They have no concept how to function only on facts and truth. They have no sense of accountability. They only have their ideology to keep them warm. And dollars from the socialized insurance industry, of course.
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Quote from Lux
Quote from Thor
Oh and back to the insurance pledge. it falls squarely on the private insurers who took advantage of the situation
First, it is important to note that the ACA grand-fathered all the individual policies that were in place at the time the law was enacted. This means that the plans in effect at the time that President Obama was pushing the bill could still be offered even if they did not meet all the standards laid out in the ACA.
The plans being terminated because they don’t meet the minimal standards were all plans that insurers introduced after the passage of the ACA. Insurers introduced these plans knowing that they would not meet the standards that would come into effect in 2014. Insurers may not have informed their clients at the time they sold these plans that they would not be available after 2014 because they had designed a plan that did not comply with the ACA.
However if the insurers didn’t tell their clients that the new plans would only be available for a short period of time, the blame would seem to rest with the insurance companies, not the ACA. After all, President Obama did not promise people that he would keep insurers from developing new plans that will not comply with the provisions of the ACA.Thanks for verifying that. It is indeed as I said earlier, despite the tussle with the Faux bullies earlier in this discussion.
Radmike, aldadoc, and Cardiac have no facts on their side, so they try like hell to prevail through intimidation and fabrication which they are finding to be futile in an anonymous discussion like this, where they are completely stripped of the authority they have grown to feel entitled to in their daily lives.
They have no concept how to function only on facts and truth. They have no sense of accountability. They only have their ideology to keep them warm. And dollars from the socialized insurance industry, of course.
You Communists are pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. Gobblin up manure spread by Fearless Leader and callin it chocolat. Great job, boys.
When the PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES says somethin, I would LIKE to be able to BELIEVE it. He SAID you could keep your plan and your doctor. Didn’t see an asterisk on his forhead when he said it about five dozen times. HE LIED, and he KNEW HE LIED, and you brilliant intellectual elite snobs can’t EVER make that go away.
If I was buyin a used car and the sales guy pulled this kind of cr@p, I would walk out and never go back, but we’re supposed to trust our LIVES to the same level of deceipt? Screw that, comrade.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
[link=http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vladimir_lenin.html]http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vladimir_lenin.html[/link]
[link=http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/quotes.htm]http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/quotes.htm[/link]
See if you can find some you like better.
Thanks for the irrelevant post & links. However, neither showed your quote so they don’t exactly uphold your argument.
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C’mon Frumi you know what they say…if its on the internet it must be true
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Right, but only if Media matters approves it.
As for Obama lying, I’m just dying with laughter at how you comrades are tryin to spin it away. He LIED. He KNEW he was lyin, but you syncofants don’t care. Tells us a lot about you.-
No just taking your complaint to its logical conclusion and the solving that complaint. The fact that you choose not to be educated or to think is a problem we can’t solve
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Right, but only if Media matters approves it.
As for Obama lying, I’m just dying with laughter at how you comrades are tryin to spin it away. He LIED. He KNEW he was lyin, but you syncofants don’t care. Tells us a lot about you.
What you are exhibiting is pure denial, Cardiac. The fact that you’ve sidestepped Thor’s verification that Obama did NOT lie and that it was the insurance companies who pulled the bait and switch in a final attempt to gouge the public one last time before ACA kicks in exposes your denial in neon.
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did you ever mention to Cheney about what a quagmire Iraq would be
I know the lost in Virginia hurts but the faux controversies that y’all keep coming up with Obama..like he did not have his whole staff vouch for him while someone was denying a relationship with that woman…please ..faux outrage..keep it classyQuote from CardiacEvent
Right, but only if Media matters approves it.
As for Obama lying, I’m just dying with laughter at how you comrades are tryin to spin it away. He LIED. He KNEW he was lyin, but you syncofants don’t care. Tells us a lot about you.
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Little Richard Cheney is certainly happy with the care he has received at taxpayer expense.
Too bad he doesn’t realize he lost his freedom by accepting medical care at public expense. Heart attack at 37 years, survived 4 by 2001.
[link=http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec13/cheney_11-12.html]http://www.pbs.org/newsho…ec13/cheney_11-12.html[/link]He’s received stents, defibrillators, an external battery-powered heart pump, a quadruple bypass, and now, at the age of 72, he is living with a transplanted heart.
He acknowledges that stuff happens that people don’t and can’t be prepared for. He got lucky & signed up for Federal health insurance that has saved his life more than once.
[b][/b][b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]When you were a young man — you tell the story about how you decided to get insurance, even though you didn’t really feel like you were a sick person at all, and that that allowed you to be able to afford the care you received after your first heart attack.
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]When I got — when I went to work for the federal government, I signed up for the regular Blue Cross/Blue Shield policy that is available for all federal employees. And by the time I did that, I was married and had kids and a family. I had obligations. And I thought an insurance policy was the right thing to do.
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]As you watch this debate that we’re having now about health care and insurance and mandated insurance around the country, do you ever look at it through the experience that you had, growing up as someone who needed, it turned out, extreme medical care?
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Well, and I — when I — the first time probably I was ever in the hospital, I didn’t have insurance. I was 23 years old. It was shortly before Lynne and I got married.
I got sick, hospitalized, had no insurance. And the money I had saved for our honeymoon went to pay medical bills. So I had been in the position of not having insurance when I needed health care.
Obviously, it’s a big problem that I think everybody has wrestled with in recent years in terms of how do we provide quality care to the maximum number of people. And it’s not an easy problem to solve, you can see from the current debate.
…………….
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]As someone who has benefited from excellent care…
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Right.
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]… do you think that you would have survived as well as you appear to be doing today had you not been the vice president, someone with access to that kind of care?
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Well, the care I had basically most of the time, as I say, it was basically — it was Blue Cross/Blue Shield, paid the bills for that whole period.
I would say, when I got to be secretary of defense, shortly after I had had bypass surgery and cholesterol-lowering drugs came in, I had basically a 12-year period there where I was free of any difficulties. When I got to the White House, there’s an advantage obviously in having a physician assigned to you 24 hours a day, which I did, but, in part, that was because of my past health history.
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]What about people with your health profile who don’t have those kinds of advantages?
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Well, the care I got in terms of the procedures and the medications and so forth is available to anybody who is in the system.
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+1 Frumi
Quote from Frumious
Little Richard Cheney is certainly happy with the care he has received at taxpayer expense.
Too bad he doesn’t realize he lost his freedom by accepting medical care at public expense. Heart attack at 37 years, survived 4 by 2001.
[link=http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec13/cheney_11-12.html]http://www.pbs.org/newsho…ec13/cheney_11-12.html[/link]
He’s received stents, defibrillators, an external battery-powered heart pump, a quadruple bypass, and now, at the age of 72, he is living with a transplanted heart.
He acknowledges that stuff happens that people don’t and can’t be prepared for. He got lucky & signed up for Federal health insurance that has saved his life more than once.
[b][/b][b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]When you were a young man — you tell the story about how you decided to get insurance, even though you didn’t really feel like you were a sick person at all, and that that allowed you to be able to afford the care you received after your first heart attack.
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]When I got — when I went to work for the federal government, I signed up for the regular Blue Cross/Blue Shield policy that is available for all federal employees. And by the time I did that, I was married and had kids and a family. I had obligations. And I thought an insurance policy was the right thing to do.
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]As you watch this debate that we’re having now about health care and insurance and mandated insurance around the country, do you ever look at it through the experience that you had, growing up as someone who needed, it turned out, extreme medical care?
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Well, and I — when I — the first time probably I was ever in the hospital, I didn’t have insurance. I was 23 years old. It was shortly before Lynne and I got married.
I got sick, hospitalized, had no insurance. And the money I had saved for our honeymoon went to pay medical bills. So I had been in the position of not having insurance when I needed health care.
Obviously, it’s a big problem that I think everybody has wrestled with in recent years in terms of how do we provide quality care to the maximum number of people. And it’s not an easy problem to solve, you can see from the current debate.
…………….
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]As someone who has benefited from excellent care…
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Right.
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]… do you think that you would have survived as well as you appear to be doing today had you not been the vice president, someone with access to that kind of care?
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Well, the care I had basically most of the time, as I say, it was basically — it was Blue Cross/Blue Shield, paid the bills for that whole period.
I would say, when I got to be secretary of defense, shortly after I had had bypass surgery and cholesterol-lowering drugs came in, I had basically a 12-year period there where I was free of any difficulties. When I got to the White House, there’s an advantage obviously in having a physician assigned to you 24 hours a day, which I did, but, in part, that was because of my past health history.
[b]GWEN IFILL: [/b]What about people with your health profile who don’t have those kinds of advantages?
[b]DICK CHENEY: [/b]Well, the care I got in terms of the procedures and the medications and so forth is available to anybody who is in the system.
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I loved my Ford Pinto, but the govt wouldn’t let me keep…
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So sorry. Wish you still had it…
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[link=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/[/link]
Even Bill Clinton and the Dems think this thing is a pig in a poke. How does it feel to be beyond the other lefties?-
Quote from CardiacEvent
[link=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/[/link]
Even Bill Clinton and the Dems think this thing is a pig in a poke. How does it feel to be beyond the other lefties?
Bull, Bull, Bull.
And the enrollment number just released by HHS show that ACA is wildly more successful so far compared to Romneycare during its first month of enrollment. You guys just keep on punching into the air.
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initial numbers look pretty good…hope Bill relooks at that/ keep it classy/ no division…with unity we march to turn Texas purple
Quote from Lux
Quote from CardiacEvent
[link=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/[/link]
Even Bill Clinton and the Dems think this thing is a pig in a poke. How does it feel to be beyond the other lefties?
Bull, Bull, Bull.
And the enrollment number just released by HHS show that ACA is wildly more successful so far compared to Romneycare during its first month of enrollment. You guys just keep on punching into the air.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
[link=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/13/dems-give-obama-ultimatum-fix-health-plan-cancellations-by-friday/[/link]
Even Bill Clinton and the Dems think this thing is a pig in a poke. How does it feel to be beyond the other lefties?
I think the House democrats rightly see the clusterf*ck of a rollout as potentially damaging to their 2014 prospects. Had the thing come off the line ready to fly they’d be anxious, but with all the problems they’re becoming really scared for their seats.
I don’t think Obama will cave in anything but a “superficial gesture” kind of way, even to his own caucus. He knows that if he lets go too much the exchanges might truly go to the death spiral. He will make for some quite angry colleagues in the House on his side of the isle in doing so.
There’s a good chance the House bill will pass with a good number of democratic votes on Friday, but I’m thinking Harry Reid holds the line in the senate to give the ACA some more time to get working.
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Dems simply need a backbone and pushback instead of jumping on the Republican bashing and sabotage bandwagon
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[i]Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here – Dante.[/i]
The death spiral begins. there is now no way to put the Genie back in the bottle. As the Democrats reminded us, the ACA is now the law of the land. They should have latched on to the life-line Cruz threw at them.
The Obamacare wounds are self-inflicted. Republicans are just going to sit back and watch the train wreck.-
Unfortunately it would be easier if they would just sit back, but instead they are actively trying to find ways of causing a train wreck and getting in the way of efforts to prevent the train wreck. The lost lesson is that states that took the iniative to create their own exchanges are successful as the law was inteneded to work. Meanwhile hospitals are getting killed by the governers who refused the medicaid expansion. In short the Republicans are the PPACA trainwreck
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Cruz and his father are so pathetic/ they need a life line to pull them back into learning humility and stop with the hate speech…Cruz is off the press now that Christy won…how would he take it if someone told him and his father to go back to where they came from…they should learn that speech is non productive and divisive
as an aside I don’t know when we started looking at snottiness as intelligence or classQuote from aldadoc
[i]Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here – Dante.[/i]
The death spiral begins. there is now no way to put the Genie back in the bottle. As the Democrats reminded us, the ACA is now the law of the land. They should have latched on to the life-line Cruz threw at them.
The Obamacare wounds are self-inflicted. Republicans are just going to sit back and watch the train wreck.
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The initial numbers look pretty BAD, not pretty good. But for you Communists, if the STATE says a Big Gulp cup with 1 oz of Coke in it is full, well, then to you, it’s FULL. So now even your assistant diety Bill Clinton is “bull bull bull” for pointing out the obvious?
You Communists are delusional, no two ways about it. Dedicated to the cause, for sure, but out of your cotton picken’ minds. Sad fact is, between you insane narcissists who want to feel good about yourselves by spending MY money (and it is darn well MINE and I really don’t give a rip if you think I got it all from Medicare or not) and the rest of the losers out there who want a direct GIFT of MY money, facilitated by crazy 60’s hippie Communists like yourselves, this kind of cr@p is probably going to go on until the once-proud United States is destitute. And even then you madmen will blame the Republicans who tried to stop it. Thanks for everything, pals.-
the numbers look good for states that prepared and were not obstructionist…remember the early bird gets the worm
Quote from CardiacEvent
The initial numbers look pretty BAD, not pretty good. But for you Communists, if the STATE says a Big Gulp cup with 1 oz of Coke in it is full, well, then to you, it’s FULL. So now even your assistant diety Bill Clinton is “bull bull bull” for pointing out the obvious?
You Communists are delusional, no two ways about it. Dedicated to the cause, for sure, but out of your cotton picken’ minds. Sad fact is, between you insane narcissists who want to feel good about yourselves by spending MY money (and it is darn well MINE and I really don’t give a rip if you think I got it all from Medicare or not) and the rest of the losers out there who want a direct GIFT of MY money, facilitated by crazy 60’s hippie Communists like yourselves, this kind of cr@p is probably going to go on until the once-proud United States is destitute. And even then you madmen will blame the Republicans who tried to stop it. Thanks for everything, pals.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
The initial numbers look pretty BAD, not pretty good.
The number of national enrollment far exceeded what Romneycare got in its first month by integer multiples (on a per capita basis), and Mass. had no computer glitches or a political body doing their damnedest to make the thing fail.
Your post is a joke.
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they are hurting lux form the shutdown fiasco/ loss in Virginia and Bill’s misstatements about a dog
Bill should learn from Romney: stay away from dog commentsQuote from Lux
Quote from CardiacEvent
The initial numbers look pretty BAD, not pretty good.
The number of national enrollment far exceeded what Romneycare got in its first month by integer multiples (on a per capita basis), and Mass. had no computer glitches or a political body doing their damnedest to make the thing fail.
Your post is a joke.
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Noah, you make even less sense thatn I do most of the time. Did you learn English somewhere other than here?
I dont give a good goddam what Romneycare did or didn’t do. I DO care that the President of the United States knowinly LIED to me and to you and to the rest of the country. His promise was clear, and he KNEW it was a lie.
The buffoons in power then proced to spend upwards of A BILLION bucks on a system that will never work, using a Canada company run by friends of Moochelle. You Commies are always whining about Cheney and Halliburton, but at least Halliburton is a UNITED STATES company! Now we’er gonna have to pay Google or some other whiz kids double to make the pig in a poke work (Obamacare site, not Moochelle). The numbers ARE dismal. <50000 signed up overall when they need that many to sign up every single day to fund this porker. AND millions are loosing their policies that they were PROMISED by the President of the United STATES that they could keep. Lies upon incompetance upon lies upon corruption upon lies.
My post isn’t a joke. YOU Communists are the joke. You are tied to an infantile desire for life to be FAIR for everybody and everything when you know deep down it isn’t and never will be. But to assuage your guilt at having some success in your life, like Trayvon’s bestest friend Lux, the Multi-Millionarre who ENJOYS paying $400K in fed taxes, you come after people like ME to pay off the POOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRR so you can feel better about yourselves.
Three kind of Communists. Those TRUE BELIEVERS, like Lux, Frumious the Physicist, Kpacker, Thor the Academe, and the rest of you. You do sincerely beleive in this cr@p, out of guilt or some perverted misguided sense of privilege and elitism. Then we have the takers, who gladly take what the true Believers want to give them, funded by ME, of course. And then you have the LEADERS who take advantage of the rest of the communists to build a power base. I don’t expect you Communists to get any of this, althoguh its kinda interesting that you no longer even deny the label. But maybe some young skulls full of mush out there WILL grasp it before its too late.-
I think the republicans are painting this picture as so bleak, such a trainwreck that even the smallest success will look like a win
Classical example of setting a low bar then jumping over it.
Sometimes silence is the best offense and defense but when hatred and emotions control your ideology this is what happens-
pacman, turn off the lights……the party is over!!!
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Gee, I thought you blocked me, K!
You sound almost contrite. Maybe you alone among the local Politburo can smell just how badlly the ACA and the LIES from the President of the United States really stink.
If anybodys set the bar low, it would be those who support the ACA. And I sure do see a LOT of hatred and emotion on your side too, FWIW. -
Why are you concerned about this “lie,” Cardiac? You support the ACA and are upset about the uninsured who can’t log on yet? You are concerned about those who have sub-par insurance? You want to give up your own group plan & buy your individually but can’t just yet? Or just some more manufactured splenic activity?
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Stop dodging the issue. You KNOW you guys are in deep trouble. The President of the United States KNOWINGLY LIED. You can spin that like he’s trying to spin it all day long and it doesn’t change anything. HE LIED!!!!! TO YOU! But you don’t care. Tells us quite a bit.
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CardiacEvent:
So because you are so sure that Obama lied, you want to pull health insurance from 40 million people with no alternative to care for the sick, elderly or “poooooorrr”. Liberal/socialists/communists be damned
Well at least you’re not trying to hide your ruthlessness behind sheep’s clothing.
Rather, you’ve openly exposed yourself as the wolf that you truly are.So there you sit, gladly contining to cash your checks from our socialized insurance industry, that good old textbook example of redistribution of wealth which you claim to hate so much but which you also fully embrace because it provides the bulk of your income.
Sure, you’re not a wolf hiding in sheep’s clothing, you’re a wolf openly exposing yourself as a hypocrite with double standards. Six of one…
All I can say is enjoy your faux righteousness while you got it.
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Yup. I gleefully cash those checks that I EARNED for WORKING for the Man. Choke on it.
ACA WON”T bring insurance to the 40milllion POOOOOOOOOOOOOR that you whine constantly about so as to immerse everyone in your own personal guilt trip. And you dont care that the ACA has created millions MORE people without insurance. Just so long as you can feel good about yourself for supporting something that “should” have worked had it not been for greedy people.
Ruthless? Thats you, rich boy, wanting to take away from everybody else so YOU can feel better. Go wallow in it, you and the Lying President of the United States.-
Quote from CardiacEvent
Yup. I gleefully cash those checks that I EARNED for WORKING for the Man. Choke on it.
ACA WON”T bring insurance to the 40milllion POOOOOOOOOOOOOR that you whine constantly about so as to immerse everyone in your own personal guilt trip. And you dont care that the ACA has created millions MORE people without insurance. Just so long as you can feel good about yourself for supporting something that “should” have worked had it not been for greedy people.
Ruthless? Thats you, rich boy, wanting to take away from everybody else so YOU can feel better. Go wallow in it, you and the Lying President of the United States.
Oh, you “EARNED” it, huh? And I suppose you think that’s what you’re “worth”, right? As you haul it in from the redistribution of wealth that we call the “insurance industry”? Very funny. Talk about a sense of entitlement. You don’t even realize how much you come across like the unabashed poster child of socialism!
You have NO IDEA what it’s like to actually EARN a living, don’t fool yourself.
And although many have received notices that their policies will expire and not renew, show me where [i]”ACA has created millions MORE people without insurance”[/i]. Where are all those millions MORE people without insurance today? They will NOT be left without insurance.
I’m sure you don’t realize that in Romneycare’s first month, only [u][b]123[/b][/u] people enrolled from the entire state’s population of 6 million. On a per capita basis, the 27k Americans that enrolled in ACA amounted to a [i][b]500% greater enrollment[/b][/i] in the first month compared to Romneycare, and that’s despite all the interference in being able to enroll in ACA due to computers and the GOP throwing body blocks every step of the way unlike Romneycare which proceeded unimpeded.
And you still have not proposed a single thing that is any better than ACA. And yet you think you’re some kind of caregiving medical practitioner providing invaluable services to mankind? Don’t make me laugh.
Go ahead, continue your diatribe of denial.
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[link=http://nypost.com/2013/11/14/white-house-to-allow-users-to-keep-insurance-under-obamacare/]http://nypost.com/2013/11/14/white-house-to-allow-users-to-keep-insurance-under-obamacare/[/link]
And he caves….
Luxie, incredibly wealthy friend of Trayvon and other oppressed…keep talking. I couldn’t do a better job of slamming you and your demented beliefs than you are doing all on your own. Keep it up. I’m litterraly on the floor laughin. AT YOU.-
I guess Obama thinks it is OK for people to have their previous expensive substandard plans rather than the expensive substandard plan known as Obamacare.
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Obamacare is now in the realm of the walking dead. It is now only a matter of time to allow the Democrats to save face on their rush to the exits. I hate to say I TOLD YOU, but I did.
Now lets hope for a good conservative alternative. We may have to wait for the 2014 election to get tangible results, but the tide of liberalism and government expansion has been hoisted by its own petard.-
Quote from aldadoc
I hate to say I TOLD YOU, but I did.
…which, historically, simply means you soon will be proven wrong…again.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
[link=http://nypost.com/2013/11/14/white-house-to-allow-users-to-keep-insurance-under-obamacare/]http://nypost.com/2013/11/14/white-house-to-allow-users-to-keep-insurance-under-obamacare/[/link]
And he caves….
Luxie, incredibly wealthy friend of Trayvon and other oppressed…keep talking. I couldn’t do a better job of slamming you and your demented beliefs than you are doing all on your own. Keep it up. I’m litterraly on the floor laughin. AT YOU.
As I said, you are incorrect. Those “millions MORE” will NOT be left without insurance. They are simply being given a hiatus while the administration of the program is fixed. So now the insurance companies cannot cancel the older plans and gouge people for more expensive “compliant” plans. In my view, this is a win for Obama because he trumps the greed that insurance companies were trying to force onto the public.
You can look at is as a loss for Obama if you want. But this new development clearly stymies the GOP’s attempt to block ACA since it now gives ACA a clear path through the difficulties of the launch.
It will be VERY interesting if the GOP tries to shoot this down since it represents a remedy to the one thing they’ve been whining about for the past month.
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Yeah. I thought I smelled some “common sense changes” coming.
A one year exemption allowing cancelled plans to continue until the White House can get its act together seems a reasonable path to take. They’re only allowing people already currently enrolled in the plans to continue and then only for one year.
I think that is actually a reasonable accomodation given the poor website functionality and the political fallout. Obama needs to hope he can blunt this political hit and get on to something else (like the budget, CR, Sequester) where he can go back to giving the GOP bad press.
I would guess Obama does it by executive order rather than allowing a GOP House bill to move through.
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So now Obama agrees with the conservatives who demanded a delay? What about all of the vitriol directed their way in the not so distant past?
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Quote from radmike
So now Obama agrees with the conservatives who demanded a delay?
Wrong. There’s been no delay. ACA will be fixed, the law is still intact, and people can sign up in time for implementation. The law has not changed at all. In fact this new “administrative” change puts it back to exactly what Obama had initially promised. And that really pisses off the GOP.
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“Now lets hope for a good conservative alternative.”
Thanks for the laugh. Of course the last one we got was the model for PPACA. Not holding my breath given the Cons have been promising a health reform plan for over a decade and the have held over 40 repeal votes without a replacement plan despite the fact they were running on repeal and replace-
Denial
Denial
Denial-
Just like the debt crisis.
Let’s kick the can down the road.-
Why is delay a good idea now but not a month ago?
Politics. Pure and simple. -
Quote from radmike
Why is delay a good idea now but not a month ago?
Politics. Pure and simple.Oh my God, you talk as if there haven’t been any politics played by the poor ol’ innocent GOP!
Give us a break.
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Nice nonreply.
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Politics is what they do. BTW you don’t want leadership from Obama you just want to criticize him. If he had a change of heart tomorrow you would also accuse him of politics
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Quote from radmike
Just like the debt crisis.
Let’s kick the can down the road.Oh, “debt crisis” my ass.
You’re back to THAT, now that Obama zipped your yap on ACA?! -
I am just showing consistent politics on Obama’s part when leadership is what we need.
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Quote from radmike
I am just showing consistent politics on Obama’s part when leadership is what we need.
Um, taking steps to allow millions of Americans to remain insured is not simply politics, my friend. But trying to take the insurance away from them IS, and that’s the politics the GOP has been trying to play all along.
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I’ll ask again.
Why would the all-caring and compassionate Obama allow people to stay on substandard policies? Does he not care?
He must hate poor people. -
Quote from radmike
I’ll ask again.
Why would the all-caring and compassionate Obama allow people to stay on substandard policies? Does he not care?
He must hate poor people.Because he’s a realist, unlike the GOP, and he’s come up with a way to jockey around the GOP roadblock.
You know darn well what’s going on, and it’s not fairing well for the GOP at all, at this moment.
Now stop your sarcastic BS. No one takes your ridiculous “Does he not care?” quip seriously.
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Now stop your sarcastic BS. No one takes your ridiculous “Does he not care?” quip seriously.
[/quote]
Same quip used by the left to describe conservatives.
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Quote from radmike
Now stop your sarcastic BS. No one takes your ridiculous “Does he not care?” quip seriously.
Same quip used by the left to describe conservatives.
Except the “conservatives” haven’t done anything to show they really care about anything other than their own pocketbooks.
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Your misguided opinion.
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Short Radmike: Compalin when Obama doesn’t allow a delay in allowing people to keep non-conforming plans; Complain again when does. Kind of like Mitch McConnell fillibustering his own bill
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Oh, by the way, His Highness is thwarting Congress again, but I guess no one cares…
[link=http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html]http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html[/link] -
Quote from CardiacEvent
Oh, by the way, His Highness is thwarting Congress again, but I guess no one cares…
[link=http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html]http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html[/link]
From SCOTUS blog
[blockquote] Given the complexity of modern government operations, very few of the laws that Congress passes are completely self-executing; most if not all of them require regulations to put them into actual effect. And writing regulations is the business of the federal agencies. An array of government agencies have been working for more than three years, for example, to write the rules for the new Affordable Care Act – the vast new law regulating the entire health care financing system.
The Supreme Court just last month went a long way toward requiring federal courts to trust the government agencies that execute the laws to interpret for themselves just what authority Congress has given them in their areas of official activity. What an agency decides is the range of its power, that ruling said, should be given considerable deference by the courts.
From [b][b]Constitutional Scholar Simon Lazarus:[/b][/b]
[b] [/b][/blockquote] [blockquote][b]The relevant text requires that the President “take care that the laws be faithfully executed.” Scholars on both left and right concur that this broadly-worded phrasing indicates that the President is to exercise judgment, and handle his enforcement duties with fidelity to all laws, including, indeed, the Constitution. As McConnell himself notes, both Republican and Democratic Justice Departments have consistently opined that the clause authorizes a president even to decline enforcement of a statute altogether, if in good faith he determines it to be in violation of the Constitution. But, McConnell contends, a president cannot “refuse to enforce a statute he opposes for policy reasons.” While surely correct, that contention is beside the point.
The Administration has not postponed the employer mandate out of policy opposition to the ACA, nor to the specific provision itself. Thus, it’s misleading to characterize the action as a “refusal to enforce.” Rather, the President has authorized a minor temporary course correction regarding individual ACA provisions, necessary in his Administration’s judgment to faithfully execute the overall statute, other related laws, and the purposes of the ACA’s framers. As a legal as well as a practical matter, that’s well within his job description[b] [/b]
[b][b] [/b][/b]
[/b]
[/blockquote] -
Quote from CardiacEvent
Oh, by the way, His Highness is thwarting Congress again, but I guess no one cares…
[link=http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html]http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html[/link]“Extra-legal” is an interesting choice of word.
But “illegal”? Can you tell us what law he’s breaking.
Otherwise, if all you have is the Weekly Standard quoting whinings by Boehner and Cruz, and citing Bill Clinton’s criticism of Obama when Hillary was still in the running before the primary, then you’re running’ on some pretty slim pickin’s right now.
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Quote from Thor
Short Radmike: Compalin when Obama doesn’t allow a delay in allowing people to keep non-conforming plans; Complain again when does. Kind of like Mitch McConnell fillibustering his own bill
No it shows the lack of a moral compass. But you don’t believe in those things anyway. They keep getting in the way of your Utopia.
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Sorry this is not a moral issue, it is a practical and for that matter a political one. What do you think the moral imperative is for Obama? Put it this way, he believes in the PPACA and is doing what he needs to do to make it work and as needs change and arise his methods do to; changing course is a sign of maturity not weakness.
Heck look where Bush’s moral certitude and unyielding refusal to change got us. -
No. Obama has always felt that the end justifies the means. If he has to lie, cheat, or steal to get his way, he will.
Changing course after berating those who told you to do so with nary an acknowledgement of one’s error is not maturity. It is a weakness of character. -
yawn
Quote from radmike
No. Obama has always felt that the end justifies the means. If he has to lie, cheat, or steal to get his way, he will.
Changing course after berating those who told you to do so with nary an acknowledgement of one’s error is not maturity. It is a weakness of character. -
Quote from Noah’sArk
yawn
Quote from radmike
No. Obama has always felt that the end justifies the means. If he has to lie, cheat, or steal to get his way, he will.
Changing course after berating those who told you to do so with nary an acknowledgement of one’s error is not maturity. It is a weakness of character.To sum it all up, just how is this “hope and change” thing going for you? I’ve enjoyed about all of this stuff that I can stand.
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This is hope and change because a President showed character and humility that he is not perfect and didn’t just say well I’m not a crook
Quote from Point Man
Quote from Noah’sArk
yawn
Quote from radmike
No. Obama has always felt that the end justifies the means. If he has to lie, cheat, or steal to get his way, he will.
Changing course after berating those who told you to do so with nary an acknowledgement of one’s error is not maturity. It is a weakness of character.To sum it all up, just how is this “hope and change” thing going for you? I’ve enjoyed about all of this stuff that I can stand.
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Quote from Noah’sArk
This is hope and change because a President showed character and humility that he is not perfect and didn’t just say well I’m not a crook
Quote from Point Man
Quote from Noah’sArk
yawn
Quote from radmike
No. Obama has always felt that the end justifies the means. If he has to lie, cheat, or steal to get his way, he will.
Changing course after berating those who told you to do so with nary an acknowledgement of one’s error is not maturity. It is a weakness of character.To sum it all up, just how is this “hope and change” thing going for you? I’ve enjoyed about all of this stuff that I can stand.
Character??? Yeah, I agree with you, he is a “character”. He is a proven liar which is the lowest form of human life. He is a complete failure at everything he has touched. Since you are happy with all this “hope and change” c#$p, God help you and your fellow democrites. What a legacy for you to idolize.
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Obama took steps to have people kicked off of their insurance. That is why he is backpedaling. You might want to do the same.
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Quote from radmike
Denial
Denial
DenialJust keep telling yourself that, Nero, as the GOP House burns down.
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Quote from radmike
So now Obama agrees with the conservatives who demanded a delay? What about all of the vitriol directed their way in the not so distant past?
This is quite a different proposal than a blanket delay of ACA implementation, or even a delay of the individual mandate. As I understand what is being proposed it applies only to those people currently enrolled in plans in the individual marketplace. The administration still consideres those plans substandard but is willing, due to technical issues (and, yes, political fallout) willing to give that subset of people a pass for a year.
What is a key difference between what the administration is doing and all of the prior GOP proposals, is that this plan is specifically designed to keep the exchanges healthy enough to survive the interim perod of fixing the application process while the GOP plans were specifically design to skew the risk pool, spike future premium rates, and kill the exchanges outright. This is a technical difference that makes a lot of difference, but is difficult to explain to the public … so the GOP can easily spin how “Obama is coming to their view” and helps to blunt some the GOP shutdown blame.
Yes, it is poltical. Mr. Obama was not truthful in his rhetoric while selling the ACA and he is paying for it now. Poltically he needs to get past the 2014 midterms without throwing his own party under the bus so that democrats a) don’t abandon him wholyl as a lame duck between now and then and b) can have a fair shot at holding a majority in the senate.
If he can get past the focus on the cancellations of a small percentage of people (but it [i]is[/i] a large overall number of people) and back into budgetary politics, hopefulyl come January 15th the stories will start turing toward “Johnny’s mom who had diabetes but now gets care for her and her child. But, there is no substitute for results. If thewebsite continues to bog down and is plagued with problems then Mr. Obama has a poltical sh*t sandwich to eat.
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Quote from dergon
Quote from radmike
So now Obama agrees with the conservatives who demanded a delay? What about all of the vitriol directed their way in the not so distant past?
This is quite a different proposal than a blanket delay of ACA implementation, or even a delay of the individual mandate. As I understand what is being proposed it applies only to those people currently enrolled in plans in the individual marketplace. The administration still consideres those plans substandard but is willing, due to technical issues (and, yes, political fallout) willing to give that subset of people a pass for a year.
What is a key difference between what the administration is doing and all of the prior GOP proposals, is that this plan is specifically designed to keep the exchanges healthy enough to survive the interim perod of fixing the application process while the GOP plans were specifically design to skew the risk pool, spike futures rates, and kill the exchanges outright.
Yes, it is poltical. Mr. Obama was not truthful in his rhetoric while selling the ACA and he is paying for it now. Poltically he needs to get past the 2014 midterms without throwing his own party under the bus so that democrats a) don’t abandon him wholyl as a lame duck between now and then and b) can have a fair shot at holding a majority in the senate.
If he can get past the focus on the cancellations of a small percentage of people (but it [i]is[/i] a large overall number of people) and back into budgetary politics, hopefulyl come January 15th the stories will start turing toward “Johnny’s mom who had diabetes but now gets care for her and her child. But, there is no substitute for results. If thewebsite continues to bog down and is plagued with problems then Mr. Obama has a poltical sh*t sandwich to eat.
A nice cogent argument. I may not completely agree but at least current reality is being faced. I do appreciate your input, Dergon, on this issue.
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Quote from radmike
Quote from dergon
Quote from radmike
So now Obama agrees with the conservatives who demanded a delay? What about all of the vitriol directed their way in the not so distant past?
This is quite a different proposal than a blanket delay of ACA implementation, or even a delay of the individual mandate. As I understand what is being proposed it applies only to those people currently enrolled in plans in the individual marketplace. The administration still consideres those plans substandard but is willing, due to technical issues (and, yes, political fallout) willing to give that subset of people a pass for a year.
What is a key difference between what the administration is doing and all of the prior GOP proposals, is that this plan is specifically designed to keep the exchanges healthy enough to survive the interim perod of fixing the application process while the GOP plans were specifically design to skew the risk pool, spike futures rates, and kill the exchanges outright.
Yes, it is poltical. Mr. Obama was not truthful in his rhetoric while selling the ACA and he is paying for it now. Poltically he needs to get past the 2014 midterms without throwing his own party under the bus so that democrats a) don’t abandon him wholyl as a lame duck between now and then and b) can have a fair shot at holding a majority in the senate.
If he can get past the focus on the cancellations of a small percentage of people (but it [i]is[/i] a large overall number of people) and back into budgetary politics, hopefulyl come January 15th the stories will start turing toward “Johnny’s mom who had diabetes but now gets care for her and her child. But, there is no substitute for results. If thewebsite continues to bog down and is plagued with problems then Mr. Obama has a poltical sh*t sandwich to eat.
A nice cogent argument. I may not completely agree but at least current reality is being faced. I do appreciate your input, Dergon, on this issue.
Well, that ‘cogent argument’ seemed obvious from the start, but as long as it’s now explained more clearly, whatever works.
Good job, dergon.
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Sure you can keep a crappy policy an additional year. Good for insurance companies bad for people….that is assuming the insurers actually want to continue issuing those policies (which they are not required to do) so sure you get a pyrrhic victory with the prime beneficiary being corporate insurance companies who will bank on the fact that their customers won’t take the time to comparison shop
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Yes, that’s exactly what it is, Dergon. The GOP will try to spin into something nasty but, as you hinted, such a ploy will defy common sense and will go against the public interest. His ratings will go up another 10 points within a couple of weeks because of this. And aldadoc will eat cake with his “I told you so” fantasy.
How could anyone on the GOP side consider this to be a victory for them?! In fact this is the worst possible scenario I can imagine happening for them. It totally takes the air out of their main argument. Now they’re back to having to come up with an alternative because people want to be insured and most Americans still want ACA to be fixed and not repealed.
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So I guess those plans were not substandard after all. Another LIE.
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Quote from radmike
So I guess those plans were not substandard after all. Another LIE.
Now you are being ridiculous. You know damn well something this big has to be phased in and cannot possibly happen all at once overnight.
Stop being silly.
The plan is turning into exactly what Obama wanted it to be. And the irony is it’s the GOP’s incessant whining that made it so.
Talk about a bipartisan effort!
Good job, guys.
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“So I guess those plans were not substandard after all.”
No they are still substandard but you are allowed to keep crappy coverage if you like it for another year (or perhaps more succinctly a fool and their money are soon parted). Sadly the most harm will come to Republican constituents who will avoid the cost savings and better coverage they can find in the exchange to hold onto their old more expensive less coverage policies. Enjoy that little piece of irony.-
Why would the all-caring and compassionate Obama allow people to stay on substandard policies? Does he not care?
He must hate poor people.
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You can’t have it both ways.
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Quote from radmike
Quote from dergon
Quote from radmike
So now Obama agrees with the conservatives who demanded a delay? What about all of the vitriol directed their way in the not so distant past?
blah blah blah
A nice cogent argument. I may not completely agree but at least current reality is being faced. I do appreciate your input, Dergon, on this issue.
Thanks – plenty of typos, but I was moving quick 🙂
___Quote from CardiacEvent
Oh, by the way, His Highness is thwarting Congress again, but I guess no one cares…
[link=http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html]http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/fairy-tale-continues-obama-proposes-extralegal-obamacare-fix_767089.html[/link]
As for this, the fact that John Boehner and Ted Cruz [i]say[/i] that Obama lacks the authority does not make it so.
Actually, the constitution does say the executive branch shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed.
However, there is a long historical precedent of allowing great latitude in defining that phrase. There is also the Administrative Procedure Act, under which there have been numerous rulings. Courts have generally held that an administration has to go years without action and/or is has a long record of not making good faith efforts towards implementation of a statute for it to reach the grounds of illegality.
The administration can argue, and imho [i]successfully[/i] argue, that the administration is making a goof faith effort to work toward full implementation and that their actions lie well within the set precedent of legal grounds for executive discretion. We’ve been through this with the employer mandate delay, congress benefits under the ACA, and numerous other less public provision in the health law. -
You seem to have no concept of character and what one person defines a s failure may be someone’s chance to make lemonade…Pointless..the status quo was not working and a change had to happen and the other party had nothing to offer but continued obstruction
Quote from Point Man
Quote from Noah’sArk
This is hope and change because a President showed character and humility that he is not perfect and didn’t just say well I’m not a crook
Quote from Point Man
Quote from Noah’sArk
yawn
Quote from radmike
No. Obama has always felt that the end justifies the means. If he has to lie, cheat, or steal to get his way, he will.
Changing course after berating those who told you to do so with nary an acknowledgement of one’s error is not maturity. It is a weakness of character.To sum it all up, just how is this “hope and change” thing going for you? I’ve enjoyed about all of this stuff that I can stand.
Character??? Yeah, I agree with you, he is a “character”. He is a proven liar which is the lowest form of human life. He is a complete failure at everything he has touched. Since you are happy with all this “hope and change” c#$p, God help you and your fellow democrites. What a legacy for you to idolize.
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just remember Point: no good deed goes unpunished(obamaCare) but IT is the law of the land for the next 2 years.
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I’m guessing that we don’t have to worry about a third term anymore. Heh!
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well there is something about that HALO that surrounds Obama
Quote from aldadoc
I’m guessing that we don’t have to worry about a third term anymore. Heh!
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Quote from aldadoc
I’m guessing that we don’t have to worry about a third term anymore. Heh!
Then I get $100 ! ( I have an RL bet with a crazy right wing friend – he was so sure Obama would claim a crown that we bet on it. I gave him 20:1 odds )
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Today (Friday) will be an interesting little political test. Boehner is putting up the Keep Your Health Plan Act. He openly stated it was a “first step toward repeal”. If a significant number of democrats defect despite Boehner’s rhetoric and Obama’s effort it will be a real show of political problems for the democrats fearing the midterms.
Stay tuned.-
So, what would the right-wing Republican plan be? Go back to the way it was in 2009?
Better. Forward to the past!
Fox’s latest position, “Too many people have health insurance!”
There’s your Republican solution. When is the Tea Party giving up their Medicare health insurance?-
Quote from Frumious
So, what would the right-wing Republican plan be? Go back to the way it was in 2009?
“Repeal and Replace” sounds a lot better than “Repeal and Shrug”.
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Repeal is their only plan. republicans are so crazy about Obama (as they were about Clinton – a permanent disorder?), if told they would have to be Abraham in order to ensure Obama’s failure, they’d probably at least think about it.
And then only maybe say no. But they would still want their own SS & Medicare in their zero-sum game calculations.
And keep the same socialist/communist government reimbursement rates too.
[:D][:D]-
Flail flail flail flail. Whine about the Republicans and hope no one notices the utter disaster goin on. Won’t work, boys. won’t work.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Flail flail flail flail. Whine about the Republicans and hope no one notices the utter disaster goin on. Won’t work, boys. won’t work.
Ok, thanks for confirming that you have no alternative plan.
So, just let them die? Or are you willing to go back to paying their ER bill for them?
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The disaster is not Obamacare. So what if people are late signing up, the vast majority will see no effect on their own insurance.
The disaster is everyone jumping on the bandwagon including liberal voices and the panic among some Democrats and Obama not exactly looking in control but more like a teacher in a room full of unruly kids & angry parents. (My little Johnny wouldn’t…)-
I am not the Republican party, an I don’t speak for them. And quit with your BS of republicans want people to die. That’s yet another lie, although you Communists are really good at lying it seems.
The disaster IS obamacare, and you might as well stop trying tospin it. It S*CKS big time. You know it but you won’t admit it.
I AKLMOST feel sorry for you Communists. you ALMOST had control in your grasp. The Big Communist Wet Dream National Health Care was JUST around the corner…You ALMOST sunk this once proud nation in the name and the ILLUSION of helping the POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR. But too bad for you, you chose incometent leadership, who bungled it worse than the republicans have been bungling elections.
You want a plan? Heres a plan. Figgur out how to REALLY help people, find out how much it’s REALLY gonna cost, have the debate, and DON”T LIE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE about it. That’s the plan. In the meaitime, physicians like me will continue to care for your annointed POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR for nothing because that’s the right thing to do.
Flail away!-
Quote from CardiacEvent
I am not the Republican party, an I don’t speak for them. And quit with your BS of republicans want people to die. That’s yet another lie, although you Communists are really good at lying it seems.
Flail away!
[link=http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgawker.com%2F5840024%2F&ei=Vm2GUpbXIIrasATVp4HoBw&usg=AFQjCNFm47A4coZ1yZR4M4Hh9odVp0YRww&bvm=bv.56643336,d.cWc]Ron Paul’s Campaign Manager Died of Pneumonia, Penniless and …[/link]
At CNN’s [link=http://cheatatwork.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL2dhd2tlci5jb20vNTgzOTU2NC9nb3AtZGViYXRlLWNyb3dkLW9uLXVuaW5zdXJlZC1zaWNrLWFtZXJpY2Fucy1sZXQtdGhlbS1kaWU%3D]Tea Party-indulging debate[/link] on Monday, Ron Paul, a medical doctor, faced a pointed line of questioning from Wolf Blitzer regarding the case of an uninsured young man who suddenly found himself in dire need of intensive health care.
[b]Should the state pay his bills? Paul responded, “That’s what freedom is all about: taking your own risks. This whole idea that you have to take care of everybody”[/b]
He never quite finished that point, letting the audience’s loud applause finish it for him. [b]So Blitzer pressed on, asking if he meant that “society should just let him die,” which earned a chilling round of approving hoots from the crowd.[/b] Paul would not concede that much outright, instead responding with a personal anecdote, the upshot being that in such a case, it was up to churches to care for the dying young man. So basically, yeah. He’d let him die.
As it turns out, Paul was not speaking purely in hypotheticals. [b]Back in 2008, Kent Snyder Paul’s former campaign chairman died of complications from pneumonia. Like the man in Blitzer’s example, the 49-year-old Snyder (pictured) was relatively young and seemingly healthy* when the illness struck. He was also uninsured. When he died on June 26, 2008, two weeks after Paul withdrew his first bid for the presidency, his hospital costs amounted to $400,000. The bill was handed to Snyder’s surviving mother (pictured, left), who was incapable of paying.[/b] Friends launched a website to solicit donations.
According to the [i]Wall Street Journal[/i]’s [link=http://cheatatwork.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL29ubGluZS53c2ouY29tL2FydGljbGUvU0IxMjE1MjE4NTkyMDUzMjk3MTMuaHRtbD9tb2Q9dG9kYXlzX3VzX3BhZ2Vfb25l]2008 story on his death[/link], Snyder was more than just a strategic ally: He was the only reason Paul thought he ever had a shot at the presidency in the first place.
After Snyder’s death, Paul posted a message to the website for his Campaign for Liberty a pre-Tea Party organization which served Paul as both presidential marketing tool and platform to promote his non-interventionist, free market ideals.
He wrote:
[blockquote] “Like so many in our movement, Kent sacrificed much for the cause of liberty. Kent poured every ounce of his being into our fight for freedom. He will always hold a place in my heart and in the hearts of my family.”
[/blockquote] [b]And that, friends, is what freedom is [i]really[/i] all about.[/b]
*The [i]Kansas City Star[/i] [link=http://cheatatwork.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5yZWRwaWxscy5vcmcvP3A9MTIzMA%3D%3D]quoted his sister[/link] at the time as saying that a [b]”a pre-existing condition made the premiums too expensive.”[/b]
Bring back the good old days of pre-existing conditions & too expensive premiums so we can all enjoy more freedom.
Maybe instead of ranting against Obamacare Republicans should be arguing for jobs with living wages that afford access to affordable health care insurance!
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Democrats better hope that the web site is never fixed, because once it is fixed, the real Obamacare problems are going to surface. Sticker shock, increased deductibles, loss of doctors, cost overuns, insurance death spiral. Hang on boys, the ride is going to get much more turbulent.
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“And quit with your BS of republicans want people to die”
I think you are right. It is not a fair characterization. What they want is for people to die poor.
The cancelled policies aren’t coming back even with Upton’s ridiculous bill. As many have said the insurance companies have been gearing up for 3 years (BTW you think they informed their customers that they were making their policies non-compliant such that they would be cancelled when they knew that 3 years ago they wouldn’t be allowed as Jan 1 2014? If they were doing their jobs informing their customers, why are so many “blind sided” by this?)-
3 years isn’t enough time to inform customers or voters.
As Bush, Rice, et al said about 9-11, “Who could have known?” -
Quote from Thor
“And quit with your BS of republicans want people to die”
I think you are right. It is not a fair characterization. What they want is for people to die poor.
I won’t say that the GOP wants poor people to die. I won’t even say that they don’t care about poor people. They just really really care about rich people —which leads to their policy positions (health care and otherwise). Those policy position, when enacted, have measurable negative effects on the poor.
The GOP’s main focus is combination of tax cuts, primarily for the wealthy and deficit reduction, primarily on programs that serve the poor. This makes for a disappointing set of priorities for the republican party.-
The Republican party cares about the little guy and the middle class who work hard for a living, dutifully pay their taxes and don’t wan’t their liberties usurped by the liberal wet dream of an entitlement state. The Democrat party is the party of the big money oligarchs (Soros, Buffet), the entrenched academic elites, the ruling class and the dinosaur tree-cutting press (NYT, WaPo).
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Quote from dergon
I won’t say that the GOP wants poor people to die. I won’t even say that they don’t care about poor people. They just really really care about rich people —which leads to their policy positions (health care and otherwise). Those policy position, when enacted, have measurable negative effects on the poor.
There is rhetoric that can’t be recalled once said. What does one say, “I really didn’t mean it?”
But even Kasich is concerned enough about right-wing and Republican rhetoric that he – & other Republicans – have verbally worried about the “war on the poor.”
It is not just empty rhetoric. Who should have the greater concern, someone who has their insurance cancelled (that’s never ever happened before!) because it’s not up to snuff to minimum standards while having access to an alternate policy that’s actually cheaper vs people who never had access to insurance at all?
It’s mostly manufactured bull that is deliberately amplified to create anxiety. FUD! -
Quote from dergon
I won’t say that the GOP wants poor people to die. I won’t even say that they don’t care about poor people. They just really really care about rich people —which leads to their policy positions (health care and otherwise).
And that’s arguably WORSE since we’re often taught that the opposite of love is [u]indifference[/u], not hate.
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Quote from aldadoc
Democrats better hope that the web site is never fixed, because once it is fixed, the real Obamacare problems are going to surface. Sticker shock, increased deductibles, loss of doctors, cost overuns, insurance death spiral. Hang on boys, the ride is going to get much more turbulent.
Yep, same catastrophe as Romneycare, right aldadoc?
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If you lefties want to continue with ObamaCare as the website and the rollout and cancellations continue, you can keep it. Period.
We will not stop you. If you believe in it 100%, argument is futile.
Sorry to waste your time.
Perhaps we should talk again mid Nov. 2014?-
I find it strange that the party of Harry (‘Why would we want to do that, to help a child with cancer?’) Reid (Dem, NV) accuses us of wanting folks to die. We do not. Policy differences do not a pogrom make.
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Quote from MSK/SW
I find it strange that the party of Harry (‘Why would we want to do that, to help a child with cancer?’) Reid (Dem, NV) accuses us of wanting folks to die. We do not. Policy differences do not a pogrom make.
Well, maybe it’s because none of you clowns have come up with a viable alternative to provide care for the needy, sick, and elderly who can’t otherwise afford it.
And don’t fool yourself; going to the ER every time you have the flu or feint from a diabetic coma is NOT reasonable “healthcare” any more than letting the poor eat discarded food you threw into the dumpster can be called reasonable “charity”, or referring to a back alley hanger wire abortion as reasonable “birth control”.
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Quote from MSK/SW
If you lefties want to continue with ObamaCare as the website and the rollout and cancellations continue, you can keep it. Period.
We will not stop you. If you believe in it 100%, argument is futile.
Sorry to waste your time.
Perhaps we should talk again mid Nov. 2014?Why wait so long. Let’s reconvene on April 1, the day after the enrollment deadline, and see how it’s going.
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The old way wasn’t perfect, but show me a hospital that would throw someone out the door to die. Since Pauls guy accumulated $400K of bills, he MUST have been treated, eh? Now to stick his momma with those bills is wrong, and I can tell you that our hospitals wouldnt do that. Might end up paying 10% or so. As usual, you Communists don’t want to acknowledge that the privat sector does have a heart and doesn’t want to kill anyone.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
The old way wasn’t perfect, but show me a hospital that would throw someone out the door to die. Since Pauls guy accumulated $400K of bills, he MUST have been treated, eh? Now to stick his momma with those bills is wrong, and I can tell you that our hospitals wouldnt do that. Might end up paying 10% or so. As usual, you Communists don’t want to acknowledge that the privat sector does have a heart and doesn’t want to kill anyone.
If you read the story nowhere does it say he was refused care so that is a non sequitur. But his mother was hit with the $400k bill.
And the audience did applaud when Blitzer asked whether a person without insurance should be allowed to die.
Shameful.-
Frumi, cry me some crocodile tears! Try telling someone who just had his insurance policy cancelled or suddenly made unaffordable that this is manufactured hysteria. The leftist propaganda has been thouroughly debunked. Even Obama has fessed up to “fumbling”.
You better tune in to Megyn Kelly and get caught up on the news. -
I don’t agree with the audience. But how far do ya go? Heart transplants for bums in the gutter? $millions for crack-baby premies with bad congenital stuff? Where do we draw the line?
Look, wake up and smell the coffee, pals. Obamacare wasn’t made to help anybody but your fellow travellers revamp the US into what they want it to be…a socialist dystopia with THEM running it. You want to actaually fix something, Obamacare isn’t the way to do it. Now I don’t know the best way, but Illl tell you we have to start at the very beginning and keep politics out of it. Yeah, good luck with that. But Obamacare is a pig in a poke. If you want to retain any credibility as an AMerican, stop supporting it.-
Quote from CardiacEvent
I don’t agree with the audience. But how far do ya go? Heart transplants for bums in the gutter? $millions for crack-baby premies with bad congenital stuff? Where do we draw the line?
So you are for “Death Panels?”
Who is to decide who deserves to die & what is the criteria?
The level of discussion from the Right is Death Panels. The reality is deciding who gets organs and who does not. There is a gulf of ignorant unreality (& politics) and reality between those positions.-
“tree-cutting press,” Alda?
Since when are Republicans tree-huggers? -
Quote from Frumious
Quote from CardiacEvent
I don’t agree with the audience. But how far do ya go? Heart transplants for bums in the gutter? $millions for crack-baby premies with bad congenital stuff? Where do we draw the line?
So you are for “Death Panels?”
Who is to decide who deserves to die & what is the criteria?
The level of discussion from the Right is Death Panels. The reality is deciding who gets organs and who does not. There is a gulf of ignorant unreality (& politics) and reality between those positions.
Of course whatever it is you believe is on th side of reality and everyone else is wallown in their ignorant unreality, did I get that right?
IF there was unlimited $$$$, yeah, then the only thing to worry about is who gets organs. But there isn’t, even if you Communists try to steal (oh sorry, I meant confiscate for the good of the people of the STATE) all the hard earned money to equalize everything. So someone’s not going to get some really expensive life savin treatment. II think as a physician I grasp that better than most lay people, no offencse intended. But when you Communists come up with this pie in the sky cr@p that we have to do everything and spend all of MY money to save EVERYONE, well, darn, even YOU know it can’t work. So whatcha gonna do? The sad fact is that when your socialist ideal medical care comes to be, even looting the rich folks like Lux doesn’t even begin to pay for much.
I repeat, you want to fix the system, it needs a total overhaul, not a socialist bandage.-
Quote from CardiacEvent
I repeat, you want to fix the system, it needs a total overhaul, not a socialist bandage.
Oh My God, please get it into your thick skull that “insurance” = “socialism”. Why is that such a curse word to you. It’s what your living depends on for crying out loud! It’s the only thing that works. Dental, auto, home, medical, business, malpractice, the list of insurance goes on and on about the economic necessities in our way of life that totally depend on the socialist construct of “redistribution of wealth”.
No one here is saying the government should control the manufacturing, sales, and profit of every friggin’ thing in the USA, so stop your BS. We’re just talking about insurance!
Christ Almighty! You, Pointless, radmike, and aldadoc are like a bunch of selfish, spoiled, whiny babies living in your pampered fantasy in a parallel universe.
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Insurance is NOT socialism, but nice try. I know you guys can’t grasp it, but in the end its gambling. What is insurance? Buncha people put their money in a pot, if you get sick you draw out of the pot. Customers bet that there gonna get sick and get the jackpot in a sick sort of way… pay in your 20000 per year, get cancer, payout 1,000,000. But if you don’t get sick, insurance company wins. Which is why they didn’t want the preexisting conditions playing dice with them. Not socialistic at all from the patient standpoint.
The redistribution you are talking about I guess is to the health-care providers. We all know theres fraud that happens here and there, but buy and large, those folks get paid for the work they do, right? Now I’ve seen you radilogy types whine about us in Cardiology overusing caths and such. Probably some do, I don’t. IF the insurance companys, and your beloved STATE for that matter, would get on the and do their jobs, that self-referral stuff wouldn’t happen. Definately too much incentive to overuse, but that’s not socialism. Not quite free market either, to be honest.
I maintane what I said…Obamacare is a socialist bandage on a broken system. How can you disagree with that? Oh, cuz I called it Socialist. OK, it’s a DIRTY bandage on a broken system. IT WON”T WORK, and it’s pretty much dead on arrival. AND the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES LIED about it to con us into accepting it. Death nell.
As for the dying stuff, I am not God and I don’t have that answer. The way richboy friend of Trayvon Luxie phrased it, ther IS no answer. So, richboy, please tell us how YOU in your infininte wisdom kindness and godliness would handle the two scenarios I mentioned. And by the way I would appreciate it if you would not use the name of Christ in the manner you did. -
is the stock market gambling?????
no one lied to anyone…stop spreading fairy talesQuote from CardiacEvent
Insurance is NOT socialism, but nice try. I know you guys can’t grasp it, but in the end its gambling. What is insurance? Buncha people put their money in a pot, if you get sick you draw out of the pot. Customers bet that there gonna get sick and get the jackpot in a sick sort of way… pay in your 20000 per year, get cancer, payout 1,000,000. But if you don’t get sick, insurance company wins. Which is why they didn’t want the preexisting conditions playing dice with them. Not socialistic at all from the patient standpoint.
The redistribution you are talking about I guess is to the health-care providers. We all know theres fraud that happens here and there, but buy and large, those folks get paid for the work they do, right? Now I’ve seen you radilogy types whine about us in Cardiology overusing caths and such. Probably some do, I don’t. IF the insurance companys, and your beloved STATE for that matter, would get on the and do their jobs, that self-referral stuff wouldn’t happen. Definately too much incentive to overuse, but that’s not socialism. Not quite free market either, to be honest.
I maintane what I said…Obamacare is a socialist bandage on a broken system. How can you disagree with that? Oh, cuz I called it Socialist. OK, it’s a DIRTY bandage on a broken system. IT WON”T WORK, and it’s pretty much dead on arrival. AND the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES LIED about it to con us into accepting it. Death nell.
As for the dying stuff, I am not God and I don’t have that answer. The way richboy friend of Trayvon Luxie phrased it, ther IS no answer. So, richboy, please tell us how YOU in your infininte wisdom kindness and godliness would handle the two scenarios I mentioned. And by the way I would appreciate it if you would not use the name of Christ in the manner you did.
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39 Democratic defections on the GOP House bill yesterday. That’s up from 22 on the individual mandate delay a couple months ago, but down from the 100 or so expected before Obama announced his own executive action. Dems didn’t whip the bill which suggests tacit approval to jump sides.
Not surprisingly most of those 39 are from moderate districts or Red States expecting tough 2014 races.
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well Obama/ObamaCare/Un insured Americans don’t need frenemies…..
as mom would say: u know your true friends when the times get tough…if they stick with you then that’s a measure of their character/class
no good deed goes unpunished…stay the course and now I think of that song stand by me: if the sky that we look upon/ should tumble and fall../all the mountains should crumble to the sea / I won’t cry/ no, I won’t shed a tear/ just as long as you stand by me=dergon)
39 Democratic defections on the GOP House bill yesterday. That’s up from 22 on the individual mandate delay a couple months ago, but down from the 100 or so expected before Obama announced his own executive action. Dems didn’t whip the bill which suggests tacit approval to jump sides.
Not surprisingly most of those 39 are from moderate districts or Red States expecting tough 2014 races.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Insurance is NOT socialism, but nice try. I know you guys can’t grasp it, but in the end its gambling.
“Gambling”. What a joke. Somehow you remind me of a guy who insists his alcoholism is merely a choice.
Whatever word makes the rosé taste sweeter, right Cardiac?People who need it, get it. In what book is that called gambling? I suppose you consider all of us gamblers who gladly pay our taxes which get redistributed every day of the week too?
Insurance is definitely a socialist construct, and it’s a good thing.
You are simply delusional.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
I don’t agree with the audience. But how far do ya go? Heart transplants for bums in the gutter? $millions for crack-baby premies with bad congenital stuff? Where do we draw the line?
Don’t be coy, what are you trying to say? Are you saying let them die or not? Because if you really are saying they should not be left to die, then what’s your proposal for getting them treatment?
And if you’re saying “yes”, then your “solution” is, in fact, “let them die”.
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