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Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows
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errr is that the left hand corner
My radiologist right vs left thing comes back to bite me aqgain-
Another winning prediction from Alda…defunding is just aroud the corner; any day now…..
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I think he honestly believed it
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I’m still waiting for aldadoc to produce any shred of evidence showing that the [i]”Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows”![/i]
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[link=http://www.nationaljournal.com/budget/poll-majority-opposes-defunding-obamacare-if-it-requires-government-shutdown-20130923]http://www.nationaljournal.com/budget/poll-majority-opposes-defunding-obamacare-if-it-requires-government-shutdown-20130923[/link]
Notice what they are asking in the poll above. Now look at the polls below which leave out government shutdown clause.
[link=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html[/link]
[link=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/repeal_of_health_care_law_favoroppose-1947.html]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/repeal_of_health_care_law_favoroppose-1947.html[/link]
Apparently there is evidence.-
Sorry, in all three articles I see zero evidence of any significant trend showing that the[i] “Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows”. [/i]
If anything, I see a gradual decline in opposition from 2010 through April 2013 (under 50%) when it shot up a few percent until June where it again leveled off to about 50% opposed. But only 23% want the bill defunded. Rather, the vast majority of Americans want lawmakers to put in the effort to make the law work. If you don’t agree, then you’re the one in denial of hte research. Why do these articles not include the recent Pew study showing that. I see no reason to put more credence in CBS, ABS, CNN, FOX, NBC, or USA Today polls over Pew. And I certainly won’t consider Rasmuussen without also considering Pew. Your sample is biased, and yet still does not show an increase in the sentiment to defund.
So again, the OP is bogus.
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My sample is biased?
Every quote, stat, and opinion you post is biased.
I used RCP. You cherry pick. Look at the graphs over the last year.
You are not being honest, again. That 23% defunded stat is if the government is simultaneously shutdown. Not a true reflection of public sentiment towards Obamacare.
There are lies, damn lies, and Lux’s statistics.
[/h2]-
Lest we forget…the ending of Green Eggs and Ham…Cruz is probably onto something here
I do not like
green eggs
and ham!I do not like them,
Sam-I-am.You do not like them.
SO you say.
Try them! Try them!
And you may.
Try them and you may I say.Sam!
If you will let me be,
I will try them.
You will see.Say!
I like green eggs and ham!
I do!! I like them, Sam-I-am!
And I would eat them in a boat!
And I would eat them with a goat…
And I will eat them in the rain.
And in the dark. And on a train.
And in a car. And in a tree.
They are so good so good you see!So I will eat them in a box.
And I will eat them with a fox.
And I will eat them in a house.
And I will eat them with a mouse.
And I will eat them here and there.
Say! I will eat them ANYWHERE!I do so like
green eggs and ham!
Thank you!
Thank you,
Sam-I-am-
Quote from Thor
Lest we forget…the ending of Green Eggs and Ham…Cruz is probably onto something here
I do not like
green eggs
and ham!I do not like them,
Sam-I-am.You do not like them.
SO you say.
Try them! Try them!
And you may.
Try them and you may I say.Sam!
If you will let me be,
I will try them.
You will see.Say!
I like green eggs and ham!
I do!! I like them, Sam-I-am!
And I would eat them in a boat!
And I would eat them with a goat…
And I will eat them in the rain.
And in the dark. And on a train.
And in a car. And in a tree.
They are so good so good you see!So I will eat them in a box.
And I will eat them with a fox.
And I will eat them in a house.
And I will eat them with a mouse.
And I will eat them here and there.
Say! I will eat them ANYWHERE!I do so like
green eggs and ham!
Thank you!
Thank you,
Sam-I-am
Doubt that Cruz had anything profound to say with Green Eggs and Ham, just reading it to his kids. Nice touch.
But I think Green Eggs and Ham should be the official kiddy story of Obamacare…Uncle Sam I Am keeps harping and harping and harping and repeating the same lies (You can keep your coverage) over and over and over again, and eventually everybody gets brainwashed into liking Green Obamacare and Ham.-
Quote from CardiacEvent
But I think Green Eggs and Ham should be the official kiddy story of Obamacare…Uncle Sam I Am keeps harping and harping and harping and repeating the same lies (You can keep your coverage) over and over and over again, and eventually everybody gets brainwashed into liking Green Obamacare and Ham.
There is nothing about [i]”Green Eggs And Ham”[/i] that relates to trickery or brainwashing. Rather, the story is about unfounded paranoia, prejudice bias, the fear of the unknown, and how trivial it is for the unlightened to simply overcome those frailties. So maybe you’re right about it being applicable to the lesson the Obama administration is trying to teach the paranoid, prejudiced, and fearful House Republicans.
Cruz is no genius.
Unless he’s a Trojan Democrat.
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[b]”Unless he’s a Trojan Democrat.”[/b]
[b] [/b]
Soapy, finally you provide an apt description of a demo-crit. Although I would have use a more widely accepted version of a prophylactic. -
Quote from Point Man
[b]”Unless he’s a Trojan Democrat.”[/b]
[b] [/b]
Soapy, finally you provide an apt description of a demo-crit. Although I would have use a more widely accepted version of a prophylactic.You guys are wasting bandwidth here. You have NOTHING tangible to offer except whiny complaints over and over and over again. You sound just like the broken-record House Republicans. I don’t know what you think you’re accomplishing in these forum discussions, but you are not engaging in any intelligent analysis.
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Quote from Lux
Quote from Point Man
[b]”Unless he’s a Trojan Democrat.”[/b]
[b] [/b]
Soapy, finally you provide an apt description of a demo-crit. Although I would have use a more widely accepted version of a prophylactic.You guys are wasting bandwidth here. You have NOTHING tangible to offer except whiny complaints over and over and over again. You sound just like the broken-record House Republicans. I don’t know what you think you’re accomplishing in these forum discussions, but you are not engaging in any intelligent analysis.
I knew Al Einstein, and soapy you are no Einstein. Matter of fact, you are not unlike Mickey’s pal Goofy. Now that is an engaging analysis.
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it is jaw-dropping to hear some vocalize from one side of their mouth that the practice of medicine has declined, while supporting Obamacare from the other side of their mouth.
it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that in order for Obamacare to achieve its goals of insuring the masses, it will require forced redistribution of wealth (health care dollars), wage and price controls, rationing of care, mandates, limited availability, forced inscription, shift from sub-specialty care to general practice or physician extenders, increased taxation and dismantling of the private pay insurance system.
Consider how a consultant would approach achieving this. First, start a demonizing campaign against the greedy doctors, the insurance industry and the “waste” of the current system. Then point out all of the problems of the current system and promise to remedy all of these problems. From there, I (the consultant) would advocate move to the victimization aspect, the uninsured and the underinsured. A nice touch would be a commercial showing grandma being pushed over the cliff with her wheelchair, etc. Now that the low info population has been softened, force through legislation giving the government sweeping powers over health care.
From here, I would first force shift power from physicians to hospitals, understanding that the hospitals can be more easily controlled or incentivized by government stick and carrot approach. Force a huge consolidation into hospital systems. Control the hospital systems by making them existentially dependent. Enforce regulatory and tracking technologies. Run independent practices and imaging services out of service through differential reimbursements and regulatory burdens.
Finally, I would proclaim that the system is too expensive and unsustainable unless a price control structure is enforced. And … Voila, what a coincidence! We already have such a pricing structure in place, it is called RBRVS and is controlled and priced by CMS under the social tinkering strings of MEDPAC and Congress.
On the seventh day, he rested, content to see that the dream of Socialized Medicine was achieved. 18% of the GDP socialized, without even mentioning the word socialism.
Idiots! -
What is the “natural” free-market pricing of health care then and how many would that leave out of having affordable healthcare?
And would it also provide such a affluent living for physicians as the present system does? -
[b]it is jaw-dropping to hear some vocalize from one side of their mouth that the practice of medicine has declined, while supporting Obamacare from the other side of their mouth. [/b]
Whats jaw dropping is your understanding of history
Alda this has been going for years THe DRA 1 was in 2005 passed both houses of a Republican controlled congress and signed by a republican president.
The DRA 2 was 2008 Passed a democrat house a republican Senate and signed by a republican president
Obamacare is a means to cover people with insurance
The bottom line is the government is a big insurance company and costs have been rising out of control for years. There is really no republican or democrat in that -
[b]On the seventh day, he rested, content to see that the dream of Socialized Medicine was achieved. 18% of the GDP socialized, without even mentioning the word socialism. [/b]
Well you are right about one thing…………………..if obamacare fails we are going single payor that is what will happen -
Aldadoc, Point Man, etc.:
Once again, it’s YOU guys who are the “idiots”. You complain that this so-called law promotes a Socialistic redistribution of wealth which would interfere with your own wealth when in FACT your own wealth TOTALLY depends on you milking the current socialist-structured insurance industry that ALREADY is totally based on redistribution of wealth.
Look, just be a mature adult and face the fact that Obama is black, black, black, he is your President, and he is trying to run a country where he cannot “fire” the states that are losing money, or deport the sick, elderly, and poor and cannot let those people on their own to die in the street.
I am still trying to cut aldadoc a break, but I’m rapidly losing any sympathy for that ol’ geezer.
You guys are despicable and have no business practicing medicine on humans. At best, MAYBE you are fit to be baggers at a grocery store as long as there are security cameras watching to be sure you don’t spit in any of the bags.
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And off you go with slander again. Really, pal. Sayin whose a good doctor and who isn’t based on political views is bottomfeeder behavor, and if I felt like it, and didn’t hate lawyers more than liberals, I would see what needs to done about you. But since we are all computer algorithms that don’t matter.
You keep whining and whining and whining about where our “wealth” comes from. Now you say “socialist-structured insurance” instead of the PEOPLES money from the government, which I guess is an improvement. At least you equate Socialist with bad, definite progress on your part.
EVEN IF we slimy doctors (and YOU claimed to be one of us) stole all our money from the po’ people as you keep whining, then what about someone who made their “riches” honestly? I’m sure there is SOMEONE out there who even in your terribly warped mind must have made money honestly. Mabye a lottery winner? I dunno. But is it fair to redistribute THEIR “wealth”?
Love the racist statement about the President. Who, but coommunist revolutionary liberals, give a flyin f*** about what color he is? Just a convenient way for you to squish anything you dont agree with… YOU be da racist, man.
And Obamacare is gonna do a good job of killin off the sick, elderly, and poor.
You are a piece of work, Lu’. I’m gonna ask a question…are you black or white? You have such an ENOURMOUSE racial chip on your shoulder…makes me curious. -
CardiacEvent,
The fact that you would disingenuously try to hide this behind the guise of “political views” simply makes you one of them.
With your line of thinking, there’s nothing wrong with being a racist, it’s just a difference in “biological ideology”.
Who are you kidding?
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OK, Massa…what makes me one of THEM, a RACIST in your learned opinion? And WTF are you even talkin about with “biological ideology”? WHAT is your point? You are makin even less sense than usual.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
You keep whining and whining and whining about where our “wealth” comes from.
Never said any such thing.
You guys are the ones whining about redistribution and socialism. I’m only responding to your claims.Quote from CardiacEvent
Now you say “socialist-structured insurance” instead of the PEOPLES money from the government, which I guess is an improvement.
Never said any such “instead of” thing.
Since any government program that takes a penny out of your pocket seems to make you call it socialism, I’m only responding to how absurd your preference for an inhumane, unsustainable economy really is.Quote from CardiacEvent
At least you equate Socialist with bad, definite progress on your part.
Never said any such thing. Yet another example of your cave delirium.
Quote from CardiacEvent
EVEN IF we slimy doctors (and YOU claimed to be one of us) stole all our money from the po’ people as you keep whining,
Never said I as a “slimy” doctor.
Nor have I ever said doctors stole money from “po’ people”.I never said doctors “stole” anything at all.Quote from CardiacEvent
…then what about someone who made their “riches” honestly? I’m sure there is SOMEONE out there who even in your terribly warped mind must have made money honestly. Mabye a lottery winner? I dunno. But is it fair to redistribute THEIR “wealth”?
Show me where I made any allegations about people making money dishonestly, or where I ever denied that people get rich honestly.
Quote from CardiacEvent
You are a piece of work, Lu’. I’m gonna ask a question…are you black or white? You have such an ENOURMOUSE racial chip on your shoulder…makes me curious.
Not worthy of a response.
You couldn’t have possibly scored higher than a 3 in MCAT verbal (if you even took them at all), because you obviously have zero command of the English language.
And what’s worse is that you are arguing against your own best interest by being opposed to mandatory health insurance since it’s the insurance dollar that puts food on your table. It also happens to save lives…no thanks to you!
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Heres a little video of Lu’ answering questions:
[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl8ajhu_e5Y[/link] -
OK Dergon, you’re on. The GOP s going to propose a compromise plan that will delay Obamacare for 1 year.
[link=http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/house-gop-budget-strategy-government-shutdown-97496.html]http://www.politico.com/s…nt-shutdown-97496.html[/link]
Let’s see if the Democrats are serious about negotiating a deal, or if this is just about forcing a government shutdown in the hope that it will hurt the GOP’s gains at mid-terms.
The smart Democrats will grab this deal. It’s an easy way to save face in light of the Obamacare embarrassments. But, I’m afraid that the Democrats have put so much hope in the fruits of a government shutdown, that they may shoot the deal down. Interesting conundrum for the Dems.
This is a great move by the GOP. They are finally getting smart in dealing with the Alinskyites. Learn from them and apply the same tactics against them:
Alinsky rule #8: Keep the pressure on. Never let up.
Alinsy rule #9:The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
Alinky rule #12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. -
Alinsky forgot Rule #13: [b]Apply the above rules and risk losing the next election. [/b]
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Its sad seeing alda drift into oblivion, he actually use to be fairly reasonable
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Results are in – no delay accepted by the Senate. Shutdown it is!
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Quote from nobody2008
Results are in – no delay accepted by the Senate. Shutdown it is!
I hope Boehner is proud of himself for being such a self-made man who started out working in his father’s hardware store.
I wonder if his father is rolling in his grave.
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I don’t understand the intransigence of Democrats:
-They have delayed at least 5 components of Obamacare on their own.
-They have exempted Congressional staff and White House staff from ACA.
-They have angered the Unions who once supported the plan.
-They have destroyed the 40 hour work week.
-They are having trouble signing up young people for half the coverage at twice the cost.
You would think that smart Democrats would cut their losses and abandon ship on the Obamacare debacle. Dems are being offered a face saving way out by way of the one-year delay compromise. I hope they don’t blow it! -
Alda
What will you do if the sky does not fall in? -
Quote from aldadoc
I don’t understand the intransigence of Democrats:
-They have delayed at least 5 components of Obamacare on their own.
-They have exempted Congressional staff and White House staff from ACA.
-They have angered the Unions who once supported the plan.
-They have destroyed the 40 hour work week.
-They are having trouble signing up young people for half the coverage at twice the cost.You would think that smart Democrats would cut their losses and abandon ship on the Obamacare debacle. Dems are being offered a face saving way out by way of the one-year delay compromise. I hope they don’t blow it!
This level of delusion can only end in more disappointment for alda.
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I know..lol..but we will be here to help him cope because you can only roll the dice so many times
Quote from nobody2008
Quote from aldadoc
I don’t understand the intransigence of Democrats:
-They have delayed at least 5 components of Obamacare on their own.
-They have exempted Congressional staff and White House staff from ACA.
-They have angered the Unions who once supported the plan.
-They have destroyed the 40 hour work week.
-They are having trouble signing up young people for half the coverage at twice the cost.You would think that smart Democrats would cut their losses and abandon ship on the Obamacare debacle. Dems are being offered a face saving way out by way of the one-year delay compromise. I hope they don’t blow it!
This level of delusion can only end in more disappointment for alda.
-
Quote from aldadoc
OK Dergon, you’re on. The GOP s going to propose a compromise plan that will delay Obamacare for 1 year.
[link=http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/house-gop-budget-strategy-government-shutdown-97496.html]http://www.politico.com/s…nt-shutdown-97496.html[/link]
Remember now, my offer was a delay/removal of the [i]employer[/i] mandate.
Let’s not pretend that delaying the [i]individual[/i] mandate is some reasonable compromise offer. Without the individual mandage the program can’t stand. Immediately, insurers would have to markedly increase their rates since they would now rightly assume fewer healthy people would be enrolled in the the program. This would make the rates unaffordable and could kill the program from the start. Cutting the individual mandate is de facto repeal.
The GOP knows thism as do the democrats. That’s why it is being offerred from the right and why it is being rejected by the left.
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Quote from Point Man
Quote from Lux
Quote from Point Man
[b]”Unless he’s a Trojan Democrat.”[/b]
[b] [/b]
Soapy, finally you provide an apt description of a demo-crit. Although I would have use a more widely accepted version of a prophylactic.You guys are wasting bandwidth here. You have NOTHING tangible to offer except whiny complaints over and over and over again. You sound just like the broken-record House Republicans. I don’t know what you think you’re accomplishing in these forum discussions, but you are not engaging in any intelligent analysis.
I knew Al Einstein, and soapy you are no Einstein. Matter of fact, you are not unlike Mickey’s pal Goofy. Now that is an engaging analysis.
Thank you for proving my point: you have nothing tangible to offer here except infantile whining.
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Quote from radmike
There are lies, damn lies, and Lux’s statistics.
…and radmike’s flat out denial of reality.
Your scenario simply doesn’t apply in the real world. Americans do want universal healthcare. You’re nuts if you believe otherwise. Even [i][u][b]I[/b][/u][/i] don’t “like” ACA in its current form, but that’s not a reason to nuke it! It’s a great start, it will get the bugs out, and will provide a better way of life for Americans.
YOU are the one navigating through all the benefits of ACA to find the tiniest dinks here and there that you desperately try to inflate as proof that Obamacare will fail.
Trying to cite a single Democrat from West Virginia who will vote to delay the individual mandate for a year as somehow being proof that [i]”Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows”[/i] despite the massive, increasing distance many Republicans are putting between them and Ted Cruz is a perfect example of extremists, like you, denying reality.
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From a traditional red state governer
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/27/opinion/my-state-needs-obamacare-now.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0]http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/27/opinion/my-state-needs-obamacare-now.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0[/link]
And while the right wing knuckle draggers may not be able to contemplate nuance, here is a nice read on the trade-offs in the law
[link=http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114870/obamacare-exchanges-start-tuesday-oct-1-heres-why-theyre-worth-it]http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114870/obamacare-exchanges-start-tuesday-oct-1-heres-why-theyre-worth-it[/link]
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Quote from Lux
Quote from radmike
There are lies, damn lies, and Lux’s statistics.
…and radmike’s flat out denial of reality.
Your scenario simply doesn’t apply in the real world. Americans do want universal healthcare. You’re nuts if you believe otherwise. Even [i][u][b]I[/b][/u][/i] don’t “like” ACA in its current form, but that’s not a reason to nuke it! It’s a great start, it will get the bugs out, and will provide a better way of life for Americans.
YOU are the one navigating through all the benefits of ACA to find the tiniest dinks here and there that you desperately try to inflate as proof that Obamacare will fail.
Trying to cite a single Democrat from West Virginia who will vote to delay the individual mandate for a year as somehow being proof that [i]”Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows”[/i] despite the massive, increasing distance many Republicans are putting between them and Ted Cruz is a perfect example of extremists, like you, denying reality.
Careful Lux, your hypocrisy is showing again.
Americans do not want universal health care coverage controlled by the government. They don’t like Obamacare. Neither do doctors.
You keep using “stats” which conveniently leave out some very important points. But you knew that.-
[b]Americans do not want universal health care coverage controlled by the government. They don’t like Obamacare. Neither do doctors. [/b]
If thats how you feel isn’t all going to come out real soon?
As for Doctors like myself, Do we really like Medicine Of Today? I doubt we like Obamacare or anything much better
I liked it alot better when I started Practicing in the Late 90’s It was great until about 2005 then its been downhill ever since.-
What was so special about 2005 that caused the down-turn? Was it something intrinsic about medicare or did it have to do with larger issues related to the economy/budget that prompted the DRA?
I understand that the current state of healthcare expenditure and lack of coverage for many is not sustainable. I guess the bottom line with the ACA is whether it will improve coverage and access while decreasing costs. I can’t imagine most physicians being happier dealing with more bureaucracy/regulation and less autonomy while being reimbursed less but maybe I’m wrong.
A totally socialized HC system run by the government does not seem feasible without major medical education/malpractice reform (which both seem unlikely to occur). I graduated from a state medical school about 6 years ago and the tuition continues to significantly increase annually (total cost is now 60k/year). Tuition alone at some private medical schools cost 45-50K. I am puzzled as to why people would even think that government run system would work given the current state of social security, medicare, medicaid but then again I don’t have a very sophisticated detailed understanding of these programs.
Quote from kpack123
[b]Americans do not want universal health care coverage controlled by the government. They don’t like Obamacare. Neither do doctors. [/b]
If thats how you feel isn’t all going to come out real soon?
As for Doctors like myself, Do we really like Medicine Of Today? I doubt we like Obamacare or anything much better
I liked it alot better when I started Practicing in the Late 90’s It was great until about 2005 then its been downhill ever since.
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Well, first of all it is not a “government run healthcare system”. It is a government [i]regulated[/i] healthcare system that legally requires that everyone seek coverage, and if they don’t find the coverage they want or can afford in the private sector, then they get purchase healthcare from the gov’t.
Likewise, social security, et al. was perfectly solvent until the politicians pillaged the trust funds. In fact, that was the only thing I liked about Al “Lock Box” Gore.
Too many people beat up government agencies as being incapable of running a functional operation, but the military, IRS, Labor, Interior, Postal, etc., haven’t really done that bad of a job, and they’ve done a helluva a lot better than if it had been privatized. Medicare is considered one of the most efficiently gov’t run operations on the planet. Current economic policies have been decreasing the exploding deficit faster than it has in many years, contrary to naysayers who insist on defying reality.
ACA may increase costs for many, but that’s because the insurance industry is now past the days of denying pre-ex and the poor. Social Security also was a new expense imposed on the population when it started in the ’40s, but today no politician in their right mind would suggest it should be shut down. The public knows all too well that health, food, shelter, and security cannot be solely left in the hands of the private sector because history has clearly shown that it will exploit and destroy large segments of our population when left on its own without government intervention.
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[b]What was so special about 2005 that caused the down-turn? Was it something intrinsic about medicare or did it have to do with larger issues related to the economy/budget that prompted the DRA? [/b]
IMHO that is when at the time I believe it was then called CMS really started to change the course of healthcare by shifting the power from physicians to hospitals in a method for cost containment.
Basically physicans and the Medical industrial complex found ways to milk the fee for service to system to a point of rabid self-referral from imaging to specialty hospitals. Hospitals were getting hammered they complained for help………….The government passed DRA 1 2005 and then 2 in 2008 and we have seen a slow shift since then
As physicians we can blame ourselves a bit for our own demise for standing by and letting the system get bilked. The Cardiologist were the biggest abusers, Ortho next then Neurons then everydarn specialty started ringing up the cash register in the name of capitalism and free enterprise
Those against self-referral were called commies and socialist and unamerican by of course those with vested interests.
Problem is…..govt is footing a lot of the bill………..so they changed the rules
again just my opinion -
Well, we are heading towards the inevitable result of the far right reinforcing their extremist views in an echo chamber. While the GOP leadership wrings their hands, Frankenstein’s monster lurches towards almost certain disaster, dragging the GOP and our economy with it.
I often wonder — why hasn’t Boehner and McConnell put the kibosh on these whackjobs?
Here’s what I now think : they know the only way to keep the GOP from becoming a regional minority party is to give these guys what they want. They will take us to a short shutdown, say “there we tried it ya nutjobs!” and hope the backlash will send these crackpot “revolutionists” back to their caves. If they can avoid the debt ceiling calamity, the GOP may still eke out some Senate gains in 2014 and be poised for the WH in 2016. Boehner and McConnell are happy to pay lip service to the TPers and spend their way to reelections. I don’t think they really believe they can be primaried, especially after the TP has their outsized power reduced.
And to top it off, I think Boehner actually benefits from appearing to have little or no control over his caucus. When he does bring some legislation up, it is inevitably the most crazy-a$$ed thing imaginable. For example — demanding we enact the entire GOP platform in exchange for funding the government. What balls on this guy. Anything less crazy is almost a bargain in this arrangement. He can just ask for continued spending at sequester levels (he will, bank on it) and it will seem sane despite the fact that most every Democrat hates it. Touche, Boehner.
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[link=http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/26/1241474/-MUST-SEE-Jon-Stewart-s-epic-takedown-of-Ted-Cruz-s-non-filibuster]http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/26/1241474/-MUST-SEE-Jon-Stewart-s-epic-takedown-of-Ted-Cruz-s-non-filibuster[/link]
Dr. Seuss [i]The Borax[/i] as read by Jon Stewart regarding Cruz’s filibuster –
[blockquote]In the land of D.C., in the Senate of Snooze,
Lived the showboatiest Blab whose name was Ted Cruz.
Ted talked about health care, compared it to Nazis.
As comparisons go, he was off by a lotsys.
Health care, he said, would end this great nation.
A point made after hours of mouth masturbation.
Repeal it, defund it, erase it, deny it,
Murder it, skullf*ck it, bread and deep fry it!
….
[blockquote] Cruz claimed freedom and liberty, but it was all a big show.
[b]Because he could have spent all that time making sure the law didn’t blow.[/b]
[b] [/b]
[b][/b]
[/blockquote] [/blockquote]-
[link=http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2013/sep/26/senate-democrat-joe-manchin-breaks-white-house-oba/]http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2013/sep/26/senate-democrat-joe-manchin-breaks-white-house-oba/[/link]
Oh no ..say it aint so Joe!!! More democrats will be jumping ship soon. Obamacrudcare is in a political free-fall over the overwhelming negative extra-attention it is now getting. The more attention obamacare gets, the more democrat defections and the more leave the party of the non-working and dependent. And the President has a negative spread in the polls that now averaging in double digits. Nice work Mr. Cruz, indeed!!! And, we can all doubly thank Ms. Sebelieus make-over of the CMS for our reimbursements sinking faster than our dictation speeds.
Republicans crumbling LOLOL….take a look at the sad state of democrats. More and more it looks like its going to be a repeat of 2010 in the midterms of 2014.
Obama is now getting all of the respect he has earned from the legitimate in US- nothing. He’s been nothing but a figurehead bereft of any leadership and comfortable only as a demagogue leftist minority-platform driven shill.-
The left has had to resort to every tick in the book in their attempts at discrediting Cruz. They even pulled out their big guns, Clinton and Jon Stewart. Unfortunately for them, their ridicule rings hollow. We witnessed a brilliant and courageous man stand up for 21 hours as a representative of the people, while most of us slept in the comfort of our homes. Cruz deftly attacked and dismembered bad policy, rather than personalities for 20+ hours in a masterful and well reasoned prosecution of this aberration we call Obamacare. Arguments and facts were articulated in a way that people will remember for their prophetic accuracy. The left, predictably feckless, concentrates on the 15 minutes Cruz read Green Eggs and Ham to his daughters. I prefer to think of this short distraction as a commercial break. Not bad for a guy speaking for 21 hours!
The Cruz missiles must have really stung. Joe Manchin is calling for a delay of the individual mandate. The Unions are in full revolt. The white flags are starting to go up. The policy costs of the ACA plans are going through the roof. The program is not even close to being ready. Privacy issues have not been worked out. The people are demanding that Congress not exempt itself from the plan. Obama’s approval rating are headed into the 30’s.
Pass the popcorn please. The Democrats are being hoist by their own petard and they don’t even see it.-
[b]The left has had to resort to every tick in the book in their attempts at discrediting Cruz. [/b]
Are John McCain Bob Corker and Mitch McConnell Leftists
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Quote from aldadoc
Not bad for a guy speaking for 21 hours!
21 hours without a presenting a single coherent argument about what’s actually harmful about ACA or about any alternative proposal other than throwing the issue of pre-ex conditions back to the insurance companies and letting them “handle” it.
Then he has the audacity to read a Dr. Seuss story about a guy who complains about something he’s never tried…until he tries it and ends up liking it…a LOT! Tell us again how that supports an opposition to ACA.
You call that “brilliant”?!
Sure, Cruz has stung alright…he stung the House Republicans!
Cruz is a film-flam man. Nothing more.
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Quote from Lux
Quote from aldadoc
Not bad for a guy speaking for 21 hours!
Sure, Cruz has stung alright…he stung the House Republicans!
Cruz is a film-flam man. Nothing more.
Ian Bremmer was talking on Bloomberg today. He was asked about GOP political strategy.
Q: If you were advising Ted Cruz today, or if you were advising republicans ? What would be your advice to republicans.
A: Well the problem is if I were advising Ted Cruz I wouldn’t be advising republicans, right. Advising Ted Cruz …. this is a guy who has an enormous amount to build his personal brand. People know him. He has a lot more negatives, but he’s actually built his positives over the course of the last couple of months. He’ll get better book deals. He was never going to win on the national stage anyway. He”s going to get a lot more money and attention. I assume this is a lot more about narcissism than it is about …..
Q: You are suggesting that this minority group did this for book deals and speaking fees?
Q: (second interviewer): Presidential Run
A: Well… presidential run. Name and Glory. A lot of people run for president for precisely that reason. But if you look at the Tea Party, the people who identify with the Tea Party today, you have over 40% of them saying that they don’t support the Republican party. That’s not what the Tea Party was 3 years ago. And that fragmentation of the way a lot of Americans are thinking about their local political leaders makes it hard to advise Ted Cruz in a way that makes sense for the United States and its people.
[b][/i][/b]
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When it comes to the Right, “Follow the money.” It’s all about book deals & TV appearances.
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As I said several times, the House GOP knew darn well the Terrorist Party wouldn’t let it go over the brink. They just needed to show their constituencies that they would go right up to the brink without giving up any earlier. They are painfully convinced that it is the ONLY thing they can accomplish at this point.
From the beginning it was all theatrics to appeal to the spoiled children millionaires who want to have some influence, even if it does cost the taxpayers billions in damage control. The T-Party are all a bunch of bigoted confederate traitors who are even willing to resort to cannibalism (e.g., Romneycare, GOP centrists) to power their own spotlight.
Make no mistake, historians and economists will have a field day with this for years to come.
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So aldadoc,
We are STILL waiting for your evidence that the “[b]Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows[/b]”.
Or are we to assume this OP is yet another bad call you’ve made?
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[link=http://www.gallup.com/poll/165548/approval-affordable-care-act-inches.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication]http://www.gallup.com/poll/165548/approval-affordable-care-act-inches.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication[/link]
Despite the highly publicized technical issues that have plagued the government’s health insurance exchange website that went live on Oct. 1, Americans’ views of the Affordable Care Act are slightly more positive now than they were in August. Forty-five percent now approve of the law, while 50% disapprove, for a net approval score of -5. In June and August, net approval was slightly lower, at -8.
Not a huge positive, but move is in favor of greater support.
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On a separate note, Obama’s personal approval ticked up slightly as well since the shutdown, with an RCP average of 45% at week’s end.
Also not a big bump, but the economist poll looks more and more like an outlier than an accurrate reflection of trend.-
what did Cruz say if they get used to the sugar
but in truth this has to play out to when people get their first tax fine and the even more will sign up
KS has to get ready and focus for when she goes before that committee/sharp to the point responses/ don’t react t0 nasty comments From GOP players trying to make a name/ don’t get it with skunks because they will look like skunks if they are not professional and uncouth…
and she needs to laugh at how bad that SNL skit on her was…it was not funny and the comedian did not look herQuote from dergon
[link=http://www.gallup.com/poll/165548/approval-affordable-care-act-inches.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication]http://www.gallup.com/poll/165548/approval-affordable-care-act-inches.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication[/link]
Despite the highly publicized technical issues that have plagued the government’s health insurance exchange website that went live on Oct. 1, Americans’ views of the Affordable Care Act are slightly more positive now than they were in August. Forty-five percent now approve of the law, while 50% disapprove, for a net approval score of -5. In June and August, net approval was slightly lower, at -8.
Not a huge positive, but move is in favor of greater support.
___
On a separate note, Obama’s personal approval ticked up slightly as well since the shutdown, with an RCP average of 45% at week’s end.
Also not a big bump, but the economist poll looks more and more like an outlier than an accurrate reflection of trend.
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Quote from dergon
[link=http://www.gallup.com/poll/165548/approval-affordable-care-act-inches.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication]http://www.gallup.com/poll/165548/approval-affordable-care-act-inches.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication[/link]
Despite the highly publicized technical issues that have plagued the government’s health insurance exchange website that went live on Oct. 1, Americans’ views of the Affordable Care Act are slightly more positive now than they were in August. Forty-five percent now approve of the law, while 50% disapprove, for a net approval score of -5. In June and August, net approval was slightly lower, at -8.
Not a huge positive, but move is in favor of greater support.
___
On a separate note, Obama’s personal approval ticked up slightly as well since the shutdown, with an RCP average of 45% at week’s end.
Also not a big bump, but the economist poll looks more and more like an outlier than an accurrate reflection of trend.
Dergon,
You can’t be terribly smart – either you or your socialistic brethren. What has the liar-in-chief promised you today? Let’s review…..1. You can keep your current health plan 2. You can keep your doctor 3. And the most pinocchio-like of them all, [b]it will cost you less. [/b]It’s lemming time – get ready to plunge off the cliff. -
Quote from Point Man
What has the liar-in-chief promised you today? Let’s review…..1. You can keep your current health plan 2. You can keep your doctor 3. And the most pinocchio-like of them all, [b]it will cost you less. [/b]It’s lemming time – get ready to plunge off the cliff.
What you fail to realize is that your points 1 and 2 are TRUE for the vast majority of Americans, at least for employer-sponsored programs that already comply with ACA (e.g., no Pre-Ex and a modest MLR).
The only “lemmings” here are those who fall for Faux (and its various hysterians) or any other Murdoch media.
The rest of us are pre-occupied with the truth.
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Wow, the Washington Times, huh?
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Quote from radmike
Americans do not want universal health care coverage controlled by the government. They don’t like Obamacare. Neither do doctors.
Sorry, you really need to substantiate that with more than your opinion.
Meanwhile, the data I’ve read says otherwise, the latest being from the governors of Kentucky, New Jersey, Arizona, Ohio, and Michigan, all but one of whom are Republican.
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The basic Republican plan is that there is no plan. Never was & never will be. The Heritage Plan AKA Romneycare AKA Obamacare was only created as an alternative to Clinton’s plan, not as a solution in itself to the issue of providing healthcare to people.
Ross Douthat:
[link=http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/26/could-a-republican-health-care-reform-ever-happen/]http://douthat.blogs.nyti…re-reform-ever-happen/[/link]
…a lot of Congressional Republicans are resistant to the more plausible conservative proposals on health care precisely because they dont want to find the money required to make any of them work in some cases because they prefer the comforting illusion that the current system represents some sort of free market ideal that would be wrecked if we started providing tax credits to the currently-uninsured, and in other cases because theyre all-too-aware that some of that money would have to come from caps and cuts that affect groups that currently vote Republican.
…right now, with the new health care law as-yet-unimplemented, were still in a world where the G.O.P.s politicians and activists and interest groups think of themselves as working from a pre-Obamacare policy baseline. And this, in in turn, creates a strong political reluctance to propose alternatives that deviate from that baseline in ways that might negatively impact the groups including, as Barro says, the overwhelmingly insured Republican electorate that the party has tried to rally against the health care law from the beginning.
Josh Barro:
[link=http://www.businessinsider.com/obamacare-opposition-is-totally-cynical-2013-9]http://www.businessinside…totally-cynical-2013-9[/link]For example, here’s what Miller says about high-risk pools, or government entities that subsidize coverage for people with costly chronic medical conditions:
We should be more generous in targeting persistent, condition-based problems and vulnerabilities. Subsidizing access to health-care choices in a competitive marketplace (through high-risk pools, for instance) is preferable to directly providing services through government channels, although markets alone do not and cannot meet every medical need.
High risk pools already exist in most states but they don’t work very well because subsidizing care for the chronically sick is expensive and states don’t tend to fund the pools very well. Miller and Jim Capretta wrote another article for National Affairs in 2010 with a solution to that problem: federally funding high-risk pools, which they estimated would cost $15 to $20 billion a year.
And some Republicans are down with the federally-funded high risk pool approach. In April, in an effort to show that Republicans have an alternative vision for health care reform, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) brought forward a plan to divert $3.7 billion over four years from Obamacare into high risk pool subsidies.
That’s about 5% of the amount the Capretta-Miller plan would cost, but it would be a start. Yet, Cantor had to pull the bill from the floor because Republicans were unwilling to spend even that much money on the high risk pool approach.
[b]Other parts of the article reflect how shallow conservative thinking on health policy tends to be[/b], including Miller’s. In a section on delivery reforms, he bemoans conservatives’ failure to advance alternatives to Obamacare’s “science-fair of medical-delivery experiments and untested vaporware,” such as bundled payments and accountable care organizations. But then three of the four principles he lays out for such alternatives are exactly the same ones underlying the Obamacare approach:
First, they must redesign payments so they reward results rather than try to micromanage processes as they do now. Second, they should better measure what matters to patients and other private payers. Third, they need to remember that favoring competition is not the same as (and indeed must be at times the opposite of) protecting incumbent business interests.
This is what liberal health policy wonks have been working on for the last five years while conservatives have invested their energy in trying to undermine and tear down Obamacare.
Other parts of the article reflect how shallow conservative thinking on health policy tends to be, including Miller’s. In a section on delivery reforms, he bemoans conservatives’ failure to advance alternatives to Obamacare’s “science-fair of medical-delivery experiments and untested vaporware,” such as bundled payments and accountable care organizations. But then three of the four principles he lays out for such alternatives are exactly the same ones underlying the Obamacare approach:
First, they must redesign payments so they reward results rather than try to micromanage processes as they do now. Second, they should better measure what matters to patients and other private payers. Third, they need to remember that favoring competition is not the same as (and indeed must be at times the opposite of) protecting incumbent business interests.
This is what liberal health policy wonks have been working on for the last five years while conservatives have invested their energy in trying to undermine and tear down Obamacare.
Other parts of the article reflect how shallow conservative thinking on health policy tends to be, including Miller’s. In a section on delivery reforms, he bemoans conservatives’ failure to advance alternatives to Obamacare’s “science-fair of medical-delivery experiments and untested vaporware,” such as bundled payments and accountable care organizations. But then three of the four principles he lays out for such alternatives are exactly the same ones underlying the Obamacare approach:
First, they must redesign payments so they reward results rather than try to micromanage processes as they do now. Second, they should better measure what matters to patients and other private payers. Third, they need to remember that favoring competition is not the same as (and indeed must be at times the opposite of) protecting incumbent business interests.
This is what liberal health policy wonks have been working on for the last five years while conservatives have invested their energy in trying to undermine and tear down Obamacare.
Other parts of the article reflect how shallow conservative thinking on health policy tends to be, including Miller’s. In a section on delivery reforms, he bemoans conservatives’ failure to advance alternatives to Obamacare’s “science-fair of medical-delivery experiments and untested vaporware,” such as bundled payments and accountable care organizations. But then three of the four principles he lays out for such alternatives are exactly the same ones underlying the Obamacare approach:
First, they must redesign payments so they reward results rather than try to micromanage processes as they do now. Second, they should better measure what matters to patients and other private payers. Third, they need to remember that favoring competition is not the same as (and indeed must be at times the opposite of) protecting incumbent business interests.
This is what liberal health policy wonks have been working on for the last five years while conservatives have invested their energy in trying to undermine and tear down Obamacare.
[b]Miller is right that conservatives are being undone by their unseriousness on health policy.[/b]
The failure of conservative politicians and think tanks to advance serious alternatives on health policy reflects their complete lack of interest in fixing health policy: They don’t want to spend money, they don’t want to change Medicare in ways that affect elderly Republican base voters, they don’t want to cut the incomes of Republican-voting doctors, and they don’t want to change the (often overly expensive) health coverage situations of the overwhelmingly insured Republican electorate.[b]They do want to stop Democrats from having legislative accomplishments.[/b]
Miller: [link=http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/conservative-health-care-reform-a-reality-check]http://www.nationalaffair…reform-a-reality-check[/link] -
Oh you are in for a very bad week, alda. There will be no compromise. The gop establishment is preparing to break the tp with the help of the Democrats in order to avoid a debt ceiling crisis.
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Quote from nobody2008
Oh you are in for a very bad week, alda. There will be no compromise. The gop establishment is preparing to break the tp with the help of the Democrats in order to avoid a debt ceiling crisis.
This thing was passed into law years ago.
Everyone knew the upcoming deadlines.
If the GOP is still not ready, then they must suffer the consequences of their own futile delay tactics.
Now it’s time they got bit in the ass for threatening to terrorize America by holding its checkbook hostage.
It’s their own damn fault.
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[link=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2437101/SNL-jokes-ObamaCare-series-vignettes-Everday-American-People.html#ixzz2gNecw1Ey]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2437101/SNL-jokes-ObamaCare-series-vignettes-Everday-American-People.html#ixzz2gNecw1Ey[/link]
looks like all of hollywood is not taking this as seriously as the administration would like.-
the part there with the e.r. doc is funny.
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Fortunately for Alda there is better mental health coverage under ACA
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Quote from Thor
Fortuately for Alda there is better mental health coverage under ACA
The only problem is that ACA is so 21st Century and aldadoc missed the train to that destination.
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Soapy, why don’t you, hammerboy and bandersnatch just give this one up. The ACA is an exclusive demo-crit train wreck. Can’t blame this mess on the Republicans. Ol’ botox Pelosi and light-in-the-loafer reid pushed this mess through before it could even be read. This tread is a waste of time.
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Please, Point is pointless again and has only crude name calling to bring to the intellectual debate. I am sure Reid is laughing at B like u told me to what and here you are with nada!!!! The ACA is [size=”3″][b]WINNING!!![/b][/size] The Supreme court made it HOLD!!!!!!!!!! iT STops in Union station in like 2 hours.. The internet will light UP with people seeking insurance/ gettingon the TRAIN( every body get on board on the love train, the love train).
Boehner has not shed a tear yet..Quote from Point Man
Soapy, why don’t you, hammerboy and bandersnatch just give this one up. The ACA is an exclusive demo-crit train wreck. Can’t blame this mess on the Republicans. Ol’ botox Pelosi and light-in-the-loafer reid pushed this mess through before it could even be read. This tread is a waste of time.
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Reid to Boehner just now: Not backing down
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Quote from Noah’sArk
The internet will light UP with people seeking insurance/ gettingon the TRAIN
Seems that might be true. I’ve heard that people are already having issues with the site. So hopefully that’s becasue it’s getting bombarded with people looking for insurance and not hackers being Dbags.-
I logged on this morning, no problem. Apple had server issues with IOS 7. I think a lot of people will be logging on seeking information.
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I hate Obamacare but I support the Affordable Care Act. Obamacare is destroying the country but the Affordable Care Act is much better for the country.
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2scvIFGjE&feature=player_embedded]http://www.youtube.com/wa…eature=player_embedded[/link]-
Goes to show why the liberals use Orwellian language to dupe the uninformed masses. “Affordable Care” act has caused increased costs of insurance for most, so it is a total misnomer. It should have been named the “Socialist Income Redistribution Act”
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Well yeah if you don’t have insurance or couldn’t previously afford it , you will now pay for insurance. I BTW prefer “We reached out and picked a conservative health care reform idea act”
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Sorry Orwellian is using a name like Obamacare to redefine something or calling domestic spying the “Patriot Act”
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Best news is that people hate Obamacare so much they are crashing servers trying to get Obamacare!
What Cruz & Republicans feared.
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[link=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2442115/EXCLUSIVE-Less-1-cent-Web-visitors-signing-Obamacare-state-health-exchange-websites.html?ito=feeds-newsxml]http://www.dailymail.co.u…html?ito=feeds-newsxml[/link]
Doesn’t look like a great success from here. A 1% signup rate? Really? That qualifies as totally lame.
I guess that after people go on the web and find out that Obamacare is not only not free, but costs them more for less care, they decide not to sign up. Maybe that’s the same reason Obama and Congress exempted themselves from this.-
Just out of curiosity, how many people (absolute number or percentage of hits) did you think [u][i]should[/i][/u] have signed up on the first day?
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The idea was never they had to sign up on Oct 1. Moreover since they are looking at website hits a person could get information and sign up later. Or someone curious about the exchange could go just to see what is going on and what the plans look like but already have health insurance. But of course you prefer meaningless raw numbers to actual important metrics.
Lets look at California….there website got 5.7 million hits. They have 7.3 million uninsured (6.3 million adults). So if I use your logic Alda over 90% of the uninsured went to the website for information on the first day alone. (BTW that 5.7 million webhits would be a higher number than the actual number of uninsured who own a computer) More likely however you are simply using an incredibly flawed (and useless denominator to derive a small number to make a useless point)-
California hits downgraded to 700K.
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Doesn’t make your fundamental assumption wrong…that every visitor to the website is there to consider purchasing insurance and that those who do not purchase it the first day won;t come back and purchase later.
What percentage of people going to a car dealer buy a car that day? How about homes? -
And we are STILL waiting for any credible (not Faux) evidence from you to substantiate your hairbrain claim in the OP that[i][b] “Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows”[/b][/i]
In truth, the sentiment in favor of Obamacare is growing as more people finally understand what it really does for Americans. Ted Cruz knows that all too well which is why he wanted to defund it quickly before anyone knew what it really was.
Your OP is simply yet another troll attempt by yet another uninformed bigot longing for the days long, long ago (except for the pesky part about the max tax bracket also being over 70% of course).
Don’t worry, aldadoc, the rest of us will ensure that the American way of life continues to improve without any help from you.
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The libs need to abandon ship before they totally go down in flames. The tide is turning big time. The Democrat charade has been unmasked.
There is no reasonable way you can justify Obama unilaterally giving a one year respite from mandates to large corporations and then refusing to do the same for hard working Americans.
How do you justify special subsidies to Congressional oligarchs and their staff, claiming that Obamacare is too onerous on them? What about hard working Americans?. Where is your sense of fairness?
How do you justify killing jobs in the name of socialist ideology.
How do you justify health insurance policies at twice the cost for half the coverage?
How do you justify closing privately owned parks for the sole purpose of causing suffering in order to gain control and power over the people.
How do you justify running off octogenerian WWII veterans from a memorial dedicated to their fallen friends? These guys fought for the America you liberals are trying to destroy.
Lux, you have said enough. Have you no sense of decency Sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency? -
OK, so you have ZERO evidence to support your OP. Got it.
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I think I read somewhere Cruz was JB’s attorney??? is that true?? come on speaker MAN UP…make a deal
what is Congress JOB!! just do it!!! -
There is no reasonable way you can justify Obama unilaterally giving a one year respite from mandates to large corporations and then refusing to do the same for hard working Americans.
You do realize that the employer mandate is still the law. Business came to the WH and said the reporting mechanisms were too onerous and needed to be reworked, so the reporting mechanism has been delayed for a year. So yes for some who want to cheat they have carte blanche not to follow the law. Law-abiding businesses will still follow the law because that is what real Americans do. Mind you it is also a minority of businesses over 50 employees that don’t already provide insurance anyway; so the actual impact is truly miniscule; but to be clear the law still says they have to provide health insurance, they just don’t have to report whether they are doing so or not. -
gop having a conference now…they just blew 2014/2016 with their obstinance… Mr. Speaker, I am very disappointed. The other people at the conference spoke more than you…who is the speaker of the house
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Latest Quinnepiac poll has Obama nearly even at approve/disapprove. (45% approve to 47% disapprove)
And a [b]strong [/b] disapprove of “defunding” with an even stronger disapprove if tied to shutdown.
[link=http://www.nationaljournal.com/hotline-on-call/poll-don-t-shut-down-the-government-over-obamacare-20131001]http://www.nationaljournal.com/hotline-on-call/poll-don-t-shut-down-the-government-over-obamacare-20131001[/link]
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So far we have definite signs that the GOP position is weakening. The moderates are tripping over each other trying to get to a microphone or reporter to say “please make this stop!” Beautiful to watch, really.
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How is it that Facebook, which is a non-essential social networking web site, can reliably handle BILLIONS of electronic interactions per second, but the Healthcare.gov site, which is literally the very heart of the Obamacare program wasn’t ready for the obvious millions of visitors that you had to know it would be receiving?
Quote from Obamacare facebook page.
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Quote from aldadoc
California hits downgraded to 700K.
OK, enough; gloves off. Stop skirting the issue and answer my question, you passive aggressive troll.
[b]How many do you expect to have signed up on the very first day the web site opened? [/b]
I don’t buy your inflationary nonsense. The fact that ANYONE signed up, sight unseen, without delaying until Jan 1 and investigating all the other wonderful option shows how childish your simple-minded thinking is. You aren’t fooling any of us with that ridiculous ploy. Act like a grown up in these discussion and at least TRY to give an intelligent answer for once. We’ve put up with your nonsense long enough. Even staunchly Republican states are clamoring to implement the exchanges and none of htem have rejected Medicare even though they CLAIM they’re against it. Where on earth are you imaging your hallucination that there are any significant number of people who really do not want ACA at all?
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So I just received my 2014 coverage and costs from by health care provider. They informed me that they have transitioned my current coverage that I have had for the past 4 years to a comparable ACA certified coverage plan. My MONTHLY premium went up by $200.00 and my coverage out of pockets costs increased by 30%. So answer me this, how is this a “Affordable Health Care Act”? I can now no longer afford my health insurance premium for my family and do not qualify for assistance based on the guidelines. I compared my new rate to the ones on the Marketplace and they are the same or higher, so that is not an option either. I feel like my government has again lied and cheated me into a corner – now what?
Quote from ACA Facebook-
Reporting live from Facebook where all that is reported is truth…this is Radmike. This just in…a new LOLCat has just been sighted
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[link=http://www.businessinsider.com/republican-likes-obamacare-2013-10]http://www.businessinsider.com/republican-likes-obamacare-2013-10[/link]
[link=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/28/why-republicans-are-starting-to-love-health-reform.html]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/28/why-republicans-are-starting-to-love-health-reform.html[/link]
[link=http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/30/five-reasons-americans-already-love-obamacare-plus-one-reason-why-theyre-gonna/]http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/30/five-reasons-americans-already-love-obamacare-plus-one-reason-why-theyre-gonna/[/link]
[link=http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/04/2730801/joshua-pittman/]http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/04/2730801/joshua-pittman/[/link]
[link=http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/dc-republicans-hate-obamacare-but-gop-governors-have-learned-to-love-it/280182/]http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/dc-republicans-hate-obamacare-but-gop-governors-have-learned-to-love-it/280182/[/link]
[link=http://www.thenation.com/article/174669/revealed-letters-republicans-seeking-obamacare-money]http://www.thenation.com/article/174669/revealed-letters-republicans-seeking-obamacare-money[/link]
etc, etc, etc-
You keep saying people just LOVE Obamacare. Apparently not.
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Quote from radmike
My MONTHLY premium went up by $200.00 and my coverage out of pockets costs increased by 30%. … I can now no longer afford my health insurance premium for my family and do not qualify for assistance based on the guidelines.
Respectfully, I do not believe you cannot afford it.
Perhaps your exorbitant car lease payments, over-reaching home mortgage, and maxed out credit are getting in the way of providing life’s essentials.
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Are you calling the poster a liar?
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Are you in an old cowboy movie or TV show, mike?
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Quote from radmike
Are you calling the poster a liar?
Not at all. That would imply that the poster actually knew what he was talking about.
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Quote from radmike
Are you calling the poster a liar?
Oh please. What are you going to do, internet tough-guy?
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mike..IMHO. U are not WINNING
Quote from radmike
Are you calling the poster a liar?
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Quote from radmike
Are you calling the poster a liar?
Hahahahaha….Lux thinks you are talking about yourself, more evidence that he either doesn’t read or doesn’t understand the posts, and Frum thinks you are being threatening when you ask Lux, who doesn’t understand…and NObody apparently can’t clear it up either….
This is funny.
I had held out more hope for Noah’s ark..but apparently he read a threatening tone in your post too.
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Where is kpack…shouldn’t we have him jumping in with comparisons to Michael Jackson and accusing you of baiting by now. Hope he’s not sick.
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[link=http://www.cowboyway.com/Music/Clips/I’llAccomadate.wav]http://www.cowboyway.com/…ips/I’llAccomadate.wav[/link]
[link=http://www.cowboyway.com/Music/Clips/EldersBetters.wav]http://www.cowboyway.com/…lips/EldersBetters.wav[/link]
[link]http://www.cowboyway.com/Music/Clips/Habit.wav[/link]
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The irony is that the shutdown & coming default has distracted from the ability for republicans to make hay about the computer overload failures of so many applying for health insurance, giving the Administration time to fix the failure.
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but seriously guys after we have looked at a cta abd and pel runoff/mri with a zillion images..how many times do you have to reboot/ the computer freezes during the day. This happens multiple times in any busy hospital radiology department
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Interesting read on the longer term fight over the ACA:
[link=http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-mcmanus-column-affordable-care-act-20131006,0,5425437.column]http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-mcmanus-column-affordable-care-act-20131006,0,5425437.column[/link]
Ever since [link=http://www.latimes.com/topic/health/healthcare-laws/affordable-care-act-%28obamacare%29-EVGAP00039.topic]Obamacare[/link]’s stormy passage in early 2011, Democrats have been waiting anxiously for the program to go into effect and hoping that a dose of reality would calm the partisan battles over the health insurance plan. Once everything was up and running, they hoped, skeptical Americans would see that Obamacare was a good idea all along and reward the party that brought it to them.
That’s looking unlikely, at least in the short run.
“It’s unlikely that the Affordable Care Act will be widely popular until people have real experience with it until it becomes the new normal,” a leading Democratic strategist told me. “We’re talking about years, not weeks or months.”
The opening-day problems and the slow pace of applications for health insurance were not encouraging signs.
More important, in the long run, was the Republican Party’s reaffirmation spurred by Sen. [link=http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/ted-cruz-PEPLT0008957.topic]Ted Cruz[/link] (R-Texas) and other [link=http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/tea-party-movement-ORCIG000068.topic]tea party[/link] legislators that repealing, defunding or dismantling the program remains one of its top goals.
The tea party caucus has succeeded in making resistance to Obamacare a litmus test for Republicans, and as a result, it’s likely that next year’s congressional election will be fought in large part over the health insurance program. The fate of Obamacare may hang in the balance.
“The 2014 election will be the Gettysburg of this struggle the deciding battle, one way or the other,” predicted Robert J. Blendon of Harvard’s School of Public Health.
In the current [link=http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/u.s.-congress-ORGOV0000131.topic]Congress[/link], the [link=http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/u.s.-senate-ORGOV0000134.topic]Senate[/link]’s Democratic majority has stopped the Republican-led [link=http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/u.s.-house-of-representatives-ORGOV0000135.topic]House of Representatives[/link]from defunding or delaying Obamacare’s implementation. But if Republicans take control of the Senate next year a prospect currently rated as a tossup only Obama’s veto will stand in their way.
And even by election day in 2016, Obamacare may still be a work in progress.
“If you give it three, four, five years, every experience we have is that public support will be there,” Blendon said. “But you have to give it that much time.” Meanwhile, Republicans will have every incentive to attack the program’s shortcomings.
So don’t expect the war over Obamacare to be over any time soon. Instead, expect Republicans of every stripe to continue their guerrilla campaign against the program through the 2014 congressional election, and perhaps the 2016 presidential election as well.
Expect more furious, partisan debate over every step of implementation, with dueling experts from each side.
Expect smart Republicans to focus on demands to delay or cancel the penalties on individuals for failing to sign up, the law’s least popular provision. That might sound like a minor change, but it could undermine the program fatally.
The president will continue to insist that Obamacare is “settled law.” But a law is only fully settled once both parties accept its permanence, and Obamacare is a long way from there.
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the real test is 1/1/14
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Quote from Noah’sArk
but seriously guys after we have looked at a cta abd and pel runoff/mri with a zillion images..how many times do you have to reboot/ the computer freezes during the day. This happens multiple times in any busy hospital radiology department
Windows. Better than the old days, but…[;)]
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The case for the unconstitutionality of Obamacare. ACA is hardly settled law:
[link=http://nationalreview.com/article/360460/obamacares-unconstitutional-origins-andrew-mccarthy]http://nationalreview.com…rigins-andrew-mccarthy[/link]
[i]”Chief Justice John Roberts had to shed his robes and put on his legislator cap. He rewrote Obamacare as a tax the thing the president most indignantly promised Americans that Obamacare was not.[/i]
[i]… We now know Obamacare was tax legislation. Consequently, it was undeniably a bill for raising revenue, for which the Constitution mandates compliance with the Origination Clause (Art. I, Sec. 7). The Clause requires that tax bills must originate in the House of Representatives. Obamacare did not.[/i]
[i]… Therefore, Obamacare is revenue-raising tax legislation, originated in the Senate in violation of the Constitution.[/i]
[i]This has the Obama administration and its Justice Department scrambling. [/i]
[i]…Representative Franks has introduced a resolution (H.R. 153) expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the Obamacare legislation clearly violated the Origination Clause. The measure is gaining momentum. As it rapidly picks up co-signers, the resolution should materially advance the cases filed against Obamacare, including one to be argued this fall in the D.C. Circuit federal appeals court. After all, if a statute violates the Origination Clause, it is a nullity invalid from the moment of enactment.”[/i]
This law is never going to survive the challenges coming its way, because it was passed with chicanery tactics under false pretenses and because lacks legitimacy of bipartisan consensus. Brace yourselves for the next constitutional challenge.-
Interesting to see the discussion of the Origination Clause challenge raising up again. It actually started up last fall. It has been rejected once by a lower court (in the Liberty Univ) case but didn’t get a full ruling because they added it on appeal but not in the original challenge.
The one ruling thus far
[link=http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2013/07/02/implementing-health-reform-turning-back-an-origination-clause-challenge-to-the-aca/]http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2013/07/02/implementing-health-reform-turning-back-an-origination-clause-challenge-to-the-aca/[/link]
She {Judge Howell}
also rejected the Origination Clause argument. Judge Howell concluded that the plaintiffs argument, cannot withstand even a cursory review of previous interpretations of the Origination Clause, which she carefully analyzed. She rejected the Origination Clause argument on two grounds. First, she held that the individual mandate is not a Bill for raising Revenue. Although the individual mandate is in fact enforced through a tax, raising revenue is not its purpose. Indeed, if it accomplished its purpose, the provision would raise no revenue at all because everybody who could afford insurance would purchase it. Under well-established precedent, therefore, the individual responsibility provision is not subject to the Origination Clause Requirement.
Judge Howell proceeded, however, to hold also that even if H.R. 3590 were a Bill for raising Revenue, it did originate in the House. H.R. 3590, the bill that became the ACA, was passed by the House in 2009 and was a tax bill. It was gutted and amended by the Senate, but the Origination Clause specifically reserves to the Senate the right to propose amendments as on other bills. It is not for the courts to tell the Senate that an amendment was out of order. Judge Howell thus dismissed the case.
The Pacific Legal Foundation is pushing on with the OC argument though. There was a nice piece written on that effort that I read last year.
[link=http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/the-right-strikes-back-a-new-legal-challenge-for-obamacare/262443/]http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/the-right-strikes-back-a-new-legal-challenge-for-obamacare/262443/[/link]
The lawyers at the Pacific Legal Foundation argue that it was unconstitutional for the Senate to use a “shell bill” to pass their version, and therefore the Senate bill violates the Origination Clause. Therefore the entire health care bill is unconstitutional. Pretty neat, huh?
Well, there are a few problems. The PLF press release emphasizes the first part of the Origination Clause but not the last part, which says that “the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.” That language is the very reason why the Senate uses shell bills. In fact, the Senate has used shell bills on a number of occasions for major tax legislation. An example is the 1986 tax act, signed by Ronald Reagan.
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Members of the media will no doubt ask legal scholars (such as yours truly) whether the PLF’s new constitutional challenge to Obamacare is likely to succeed on the merits. I’ve just given you my answer: not under existing law.
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But if reporters have been paying attention to the events of the last two years, they should know that, at least where health care reform is concerned, the considered views of legal scholars are not the most important ones. The real question to ask is whether Republican politicians, right-wing talk radio, and Fox News will get behind the new challenge with the same degree of enthusiasm they had for the first legal assault on Obamacare. If they do, then the mainstream media will no doubt cover the controversy as it did before. If a conservative district court judge takes the arguments seriously, the game is on once more. And then, perhaps, Chief Justice Roberts, given a second chance, will change his mind — again. (In 1990, Justice Scalia wrote a concurrence in which he argued that most Origination Clause challenges should be dismissed; but as we learned in the health care litigation, he is not likely to feel bound by his previous opinions.)
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…..if the Origination Clause challenge fails, expect to see future challenges based on other parts of the Constitution. And it won’t matter one bit whether or not most law professors think these challenges are frivolous. (There are already a number of challenges to the Obama Administration’s contraceptive mandate based on the Free Exercise Clause and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. On the merits, these theories are much more serious than the Origination Clause challenge, but they do not threaten the entire health care act.)
[b]And once the constitutional challenges run out, expect challenges to the implementation of the Affordable Care Act based on statutory interpretation and administrative law. (Several of these are either in the planning stages or have already begun.) If there’s a way to gum up the works of health care reform, you can expect that opponents of Obamacare will try it. [/b] The constitutional and legal struggle over health care reform isn’t over. We have only completed round one.
It will be interesting to watch play out, especially for me since I love court watching. But I don’t think any of the “sentiment” for the general public is going to change as technical legal arguments crawl slowly through the courts. And in the end, I would wager the Roberts has no interest in relitigating his own prior ruling so quickly. It could happen though ….. again, interesting to watch.
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[style=”color: #000000;”]All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; [b][u]but the Senate may propose or [link=http://www.auntminnie.com/Forum/glossary.html#CONCUR]concur[/link] with Amendments as on other Bills.[/u][/b][/style]
[style=”color: #000000;”][b][u][/u][/b][/style]
Fine spend a bunch of money trying to legally parse this statement. It is a fairly easy counterargument–Senate proposed the legislation to the House; the House passed such legislation (originated it) and the Senate then passed it under the rules of order. I do hope someone is tallying how much money is being wasted in legal work that could have gone to strengthening health care availability and affordibility, but heaven forbid a right wing trial lawyer can’t sponge off hard working people to help take their health care away from them-
Odd. I don’t see where the executive branch steps in, after it’s passed and makes changes without sending it back to have the revisions passed.
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We are talking about the origination clause here… BTW the executive branch has the power to enforce laws. All they have said is that they aren’t going to enforce certain provisions in the next year; you may not like it; it may no be good politics; but it is legal
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Enforce the law, yes. Change the law, no.
This is yet another source of constitutional breach.-
I remember arguing with Mistrad who was hoping in his imagination for a Constitutional Crisis whereby the Congress forces a shutdown and default by denying funds to pay for government & if Obama defied the Congress he would be performing a breach of the Constitution. So Obama would be in a bind, castrated & ineffectual and a failure powerless to watch the country damaged or do something allegedly illegal & unconstitutional.
Right wingers are crazy praying for such a scenario. It would do untold damage to the country as well as to the office of the President, all for short term victory but at waht expense? Burn down the country to deny Obama credit for doing anything good?
The Constitution grants a lot of power to the President and it is the Supremes who would decide the outcome of a Constitutional Crisis but only after the fact. Would Roberts want to be the one to uphold such damage to the country? We have had Presidents do “unconstitutional” things before & the Supremes have seldom (ever?) had an appetite to create or uphold a crisis by undermining the Executive Branch of the US government for small partisan gain, especially a decision that could come back & bite them when a Republican President is elected in the future.
This fantasy of destroying the US government, secession by another name? Patriotism? To what? -
Quote from aldadoc
Enforce the law, yes. Change the law, no.
This is yet another source of constitutional breech.Forcing a breach by the breech (of a cannon) was tried in 1861.
It failed.-
The legality of the delays of various provisions of the ACA, the employer mandate in particular, is unclear. I think there will be a real legal challenge on the Obama administration’s delay which is actually probably on better footing than the origination clause argument.
But the administration will likely slow play its legal defense, pushing a ruling back until well after the 2014 midterms or maybe even the next presidential election. By then it may be a moot point, either due to full rollout of the provision or it being dropped from the law.-
My prediction on those challenges is a punt by the courts saying the plaintiffs don’t have legal standing to challenge
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“Destroying the government” is BS hyperbole. 85% of the government is funded. Most of the other 15% can be funded with bills already passed by the House. Obama is having to do gymnastics with the Park Service in order to force pain on the public. This is based on malicious political calculus. This is why I think that it is going to backfire.
Now Obama and Jack Lew are going around predicting plagues and locust attacks if the GOP doesn’t surrender and give him a blank check on the debt limit. What they are doing in trying spook the markets is unconscionable. Everyone knows that the US is not going to default. There is plenty of money available to pay the national debt. There isn’t, however enough money to allow Obama and the Democrats the ability to continue to spend us into oblivion as they turn the country into a socialist welfare nation.-
Quote from aldadoc
85% of the government is funded. Most of the other 15% can be funded with bills already passed by the House.
That’s ridiculous. You act as though the “shutdown” is transparent. If that’s true then why did the Terrorist Party do it in the first place, why doesn’t Boehner release it to a House vote, and why has it cost over a billion dollars in damage control so far?
You can’t have it both ways. If there is no budget for the NPS, then we must shut down every sent in the NPS operation.
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This hardly qualifies as a shutdown. Exactly 83% of the government is open. That means that only 17% of government is shut down. Let’s call it a mini [b]slimdown[/b]. If Harry Reid accepts the funding bills passed by the House, most key services and the NPS will be funded. He and Obama, however want to inflict pain, in order to gain leverage. That is why they are unnecessarily shutting down open memorials and parks such as the Lincoln Memorial, the WWII memorial and Mt. Rushmore. It actually costs more money to Barricade these than to leave them open to air. The Lincoln Memorial has never previously been shut down, even through other government shutdowns.
The end result of this is a brazen display of malicious intent by the Democrats and the realization by most people that their lives are really not affected by a shutdown of 17% of government. Neither of these is going to help their case.
Obama and Jack Lew are now pivoting to scare tactics, trying to crash the markets. Good luck with that. This administration is showing itself to be less relevant and more petty by the day. Maybe we can shut them down for the next three years, it may be the best thing to help the economy grow again.-
1984
If 83% is still functioning because it is “essential services,” this whole “let’s make government smaller” is BS.
Just think, if 17% shutdown means closing parking lots, parks and monuments & FOX protests that Obama is DELIBERATELY making the shutdown/slimdown too painful, what’s left?
1984
Suddenly Republicans just love federal public employees for the wonderful & essential jobs they are doing. Not to mention sick and hungry children, science research, etc.-
Yeah, let’s reframe it to a “slimdown” because your big and powerful Republican Party couldn’t pull off the original threat in any way, shape, or form, except to cost Americans an other billion or two in damage control to corral the spoiled children. Sorry, everyone including Faux News was definitely calling it a SHUTDOWN, nothing less. You are calling it a “slimdown” in full acknowledgement that the shutdown was a pure and simple failure and now you’re deflecting it into something else — the perfect modus operandi of failed extremists. You and your lot are traitors. YOU are the ones that should be “shut down”.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hows THIS for being a traitor to the children of America while playin politics:
[link=http://therightscoop.com/obama-plays-politics-with-your-lost-children-shuts-down-amber-alert-website/]http://therightscoop.com/obama-plays-politics-with-your-lost-children-shuts-down-amber-alert-website/[/link]
[blockquote] This is unbelievable. The Obama administration has shut down the [link=http://www.amberalert.gov/]Amber Alert website[/link]because of the government shutdown and it now renders this message when you attempt to access it:
[link=http://therightscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/amberalertwebsite_unavailable.jpg][image]http://therightscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/amberalertwebsite_unavailable.jpg[/image][/link]
Im sure you care about your lost child but Obama doesnt at least not while hes trying to win the government shutdown. I understand from twitter that Amber alerts are state level programs with a federal website. Not real sure how all that works but it just seems unfathomable that this website wouldnt qualify under essential, especially when most of the government is still operating.
No, this is just Obama putting politics ahead of you finding your lost child. Despicable.
[b]UPDATE[/b]: Michelle Obamas [link=http://www.letsmove.gov/][b]Lets Move[/b][/link] website works just fine. Seriously
[/blockquote]-
I think that the Obama administration is really playing a politically risky strategy with some of the shutdown components. They could be seen as vindictive and petty by the general public if they are seen to be simply playing a game of “make it hurt”.
Thus far most of the big anger is only coming from partisans who would be angry no matter what, but there is a risk at losing the PR battle. I think the GOP is still thus far however playing the weaker hand. -
Did you click on the AmberAlert website? works just fine…another one of your hoaxes/
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Indeed…it came back up. But it WAS down. Someone at the WH reads Drudge too.
But… [link=http://www.ojp.gov/]http://www.ojp.gov/[/link] -
By the way the OJP Amber alert site is not where you go for amber alerts anyway. It is run by the non-profit National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (a site which is also up and running). Guessing at most they shut down the entire OJP website and the conspiracy-niks decided to pick on one area of that site
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Yup you are correct. There is no funding for website maintenance or server management. BTW the amber alert site was informational only since alerts are issued and managed locally.
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Quote from CardiacEvent
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hows THIS for being a traitor to the children of America while playin politics:
As usual, you are totally gullible and totally misinformed.
Once again, the joke is on you.
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Question is how uninformed & misinformed are the voters, like Cardiac. The ones who expect results from impossibly contradictory arguments that have no basis in reality. Who elect these Congressional wackos.
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The origins of the Defund Obamacare movement … the “blueprint” by Edwin Meese.
[link=http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/10/05/federal-budget-crisis-months-planning/bhA7OHhAIBvNNincmzdtjJ/story.html]http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/10/05/federal-budget-crisis-months-planning/bhA7OHhAIBvNNincmzdtjJ/story.html[/link]
Congressional budget crisis was months in the planning[/h1]
Shortly after President Obama started his second term, a loose-knit coalition of conservative activists led by former Attorney General Edwin R. Meese gathered in the capital to plot strategy. Their push to repeal Obamas health law was going nowhere, and they desperately needed a new plan.
Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed blueprint to defunding Obamacare, signed by Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.
It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans including their cautious leaders into cutting off funding for the entire federal government.
To many Americans, the shutdown came out of nowhere. But interviews with a wide array of conservatives show that the confrontation that precipitated the crisis was the outgrowth of a long-running effort to undo the law since its passage in 2010 waged by a galaxy of conservative groups with more money, organized tactics, and interconnections than is commonly known.
Although the laws opponents say that shutting down the government was not their objective, the activists anticipated that a shutdown could occur and worked with members of the Tea Party caucus in Congress who were excited about drawing a red line against a bill they despise.
A defunding tool kit created in early September included talking points that addressed the question, What happens when you shut down the government and you are blamed for it?
The tool kit answer is exactly what House Republicans say today: They do not want to shut down the government; they just want to stop Obamacare.
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There’s nothing wrong with it legally. The story makes it sound like a conspiracy but “appropriations legislation” is a legal if somewhat underhanded tactic in Congress. The GOP didn’t invent it to kill Obamacare, no matter how nice that thought strokes the ego. It’s on the caliber of filibustering and electoral map gerrymandering.
However, let me remind everybody here that Congress has the power to declare war and pass budget bills, powers that Obama likes the public to think is his, the way he carries on about how Republicans are thwarting his designs.
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That, “likes the public to think is his” attitude was not invented by Obama. & nor is he the worst offender. Recall the “Unitary Executive” was the theory of the former administration.
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True, but before you let that get to your head, let me tell you that I hated the previous administration much more than I despise the current one. Point number 1: being better than Bush is not saying much; it’s like saying “I scored higher than the worst student in our class”. It doesn’t mean much and it makes you look like an ass. Point number 2: Yes, Obama’s been dealt a shit hand, but great men rise up to the occasion: FDR, JFK, and to a certain extent, Clinton. Not doing well cannot be excused by the excesses of the previous administration, especially by the 5th year of office! Point number 3: enough of the whining! We get it, we really do. Bush was bad. He’s gone. Democrats had the House and Senate and Presidency, blame the GOP. Lose the House, blame the GOP. Clinton got shit done w/ Newt Gingrich in town, and we’re talking about Newt Gingrich for Chrissakes. So man up and do what needs to be done. Point number 4: For all the talk, no delivery! Ok so Bush was bad, let’s change things (remember “Change”?)! But no: NSA spying (blame it as a carry-over from Bush, instead of saying “I’ll fix this problem”), continuation of Bush’s tax policies (the GOP in Congress cock-blocked me), Gitmo not closed (Congress stopped me, despite this being more of an executive branch domain), we’re going to a third Middle East War (nah, that has nothing to do w/ Bush, finally), IRS scandal (“I dunno, I just found out by turning on CNN, despite me being the boss of the head of IRS”), bombing U.S. citizens w/ drone strikes (“Them A-rabs in Middle East in Al Qaeda controlled areas are automatically terrorists, never mind their constitutional right to a fair trial”). Am I bullshitting or do I have a point?
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Quote from NobodyHere115
There’s nothing wrong with it legally. The story makes it sound like a conspiracy but “appropriations legislation” is a legal if somewhat underhanded tactic in Congress. The GOP didn’t invent it to kill Obamacare, no matter how nice that thought strokes the ego. It’s on the caliber of filibustering and electoral map gerrymandering.
However, let me remind everybody here that Congress has the power to declare war and pass budget bills, powers that Obama likes the public to think is his, the way he carries on about how Republicans are thwarting his designs.
I respectfully disagree on three counts:
1. A filibuster lasts overnight and is only for one focal bill which typically represents a relatively small part of the operation of the USA, not the entire federal budget. Filibusters do not cost the taxpayers billions of dollars in damage control the way the current shutdown has.
2. “Congress” is not responsible for this shutdown. Only one man,[b] John Boehner[/b] is responsible for this shutdown. He is kowtowing to a rogue bunch of 40 members of the Terrorist Party despite the fact that Congress would indeed approve this budget. Rather, Boehner is PREVENTING Congress from doing the job you’ve rightly attributed to it. If he simply releases the Senate budget proposal to the House for a vote, this problem would be solved quickly and definitively.
3. Regardless of what Obama “thinks” his power is, the Constitution and SCOTUS determine that power, not Obama, and so you proceed from a false premise.
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Imagine that you were a popular talk circuit Radiologist newly running a practice. You decide to embark on an ambitious and expensive expansion without a strong group consensus. Many group members are opposed to your plan and worried about its financial viability. Your ego needs a crown jewel and you have enough support to push on. You go out and spend a lot of group money on an expensive facility and truckloads of equipment that fulfill your ambitions. You unleash a fierce and expensive advertising campaign and open the facility, (now named after you) on schedule, even though it is not finished.
At the opening you run into major problems. The scheduling system is not functional. Your phone lines are disconnected. None of the computers work. Confidential patient files are potentially compromised, putting you at risk for HIPPA violations. You cannot access your rates. The MRI installation is behind schedule. You don’t have contracts with major insurance plans. Your techs are not trained. Patients are not being referred in the numbers you expected. The hospital you served for many years fires the entire group and announces that they are breaking ground on their own new facility across the street. A few months later you still have no patients, and you have to go back to the group and ask the partners for a huge cash call, because you miscalculated the expenses.
What do you think would happen to you? You would be fired in about 5 minutes. That’s exactly what we should do to Obama and the Democrat majority for deliberately lying and misleading the country.
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Quote from aldadoc
Imagine that you were a popular talk circuit Radiologist newly running a practice. You decide to embark on an ambitious and expensive expansion without a strong group consensus. Many group members are opposed to your plan and worried about its financial viability. Your ego needs a crown jewel and you have enough support to push on. You go out and spend a lot of group money on an expensive facility and truckloads of equipment that fulfill your ambitions. You unleash a fierce and expensive advertising campaign and open the facility, (now named after you) on schedule, even though it is not finished.
At the opening you run into major problems. The scheduling system is not functional. Your phone lines are disconnected. None of the computers work. Confidential patient files are potentially compromised, putting you at risk for HIPPA violations. You cannot access your rates. The MRI installation is behind schedule. You don’t have contracts with major insurance plans. Your techs are not trained. Patients are not being referred in the numbers you expected. The hospital you served for many years fires the entire group and announces that they are breaking ground on their own new facility across the street. A few months later you still have no patients, and you have to go back to the group and ask the partners for a huge cash call, because you miscalculated the expenses.
What do you think would happen to you? You would be fired in about 5 minutes. That’s exactly what we should do to Obama and the Democrat majority for deliberately lying and misleading the country.
aldadoc, the fictitious scenario you propose does not compute. It’s actually kind of whacky, frankly.
How would a radiologist “newly running a practice” have so quickly become established on a “popular talk circuit”? You mean the rad started a NEW practice after having been a veteran rad for many years previously? Why would the rad in this “newly running” practice not already have known the future expansion plans of the group before embarking in these new expansion plans?
I would not let my “ego” get in the way of the already established plans of the groups majority. It’s not my place to hold the majority hostage with my minority plans, especially when I have no end game that I can reasonably guarantee to the group.
A responsible professional group would put the expansion plan vote to the ENTIRE group and would never allow so much risk to be placed in the hands of a minor rogue group, or single person with an “ego” to soothe. You are presenting a false premise from which no logical conclusion can result. And if a group DID leave such power fo a minority and it failed so completely as you described, then perhaps it DESERVED to fail because it allowed itself to be held hostage by that small minority.
If you believe what you described is an accurate description of what Boehner is doing, then you’ve pretty much proven that what Boehner is doing is pretty whacky.
If you believe what you described is an accurate description of what the Dems are doing, then you are completely misinformed or deliberately spinning the truth into the outer limits of fiction.
The House is not acting like a responsible professional group, and so you are presenting a false premise that does not at all apply to the current situation in Congress.
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Obama support tanking, approval rating now at 37% on AP poll. Buried deep in the article.
[link=http://bigstory.ap.org/article/poll-gop-gets-blame-shutdown]http://bigstory.ap.org/ar…op-gets-blame-shutdown[/link]
Told you!-
Quote from aldadoc
Obama …..approval rating now at 37% on AP poll.
Told you!
And (conveniently absent from your analysis) Obama is polling at 48% for The Economist, 46% for Gallup, and 50% for Rasmussen over the same time period. -
Quote from aldadoc
Obama support tanking, approval rating now at 37% on AP poll. Buried deep in the article.
[link=http://bigstory.ap.org/article/poll-gop-gets-blame-shutdown]http://bigstory.ap.org/ar…op-gets-blame-shutdown[/link]
Told you!
3 new polls for time period 10/7 – 10/10
Rasmussen – 50%
NBC/WSJ – 47%
Gallup – 43%
RCP average for Obama approval ticks up slightly to 44.7%-
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/10/the-republicans-worst-poll-yet/?a]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/10/the-republicans-worst-poll-yet/?a[/link]
More on the NBC/WSJ poll under the headline:
The Republicans worst poll yet-By a 22-point margin, the public thinks the Republican Party is more to blame for the shutdown than President Obama. NBC’s Mark Murray notes that that’s “a wider margin of blame for the GOP than the party received during the poll during the last shutdown in 1995-96.”
– Like [link=http://www.gallup.com/poll/165317/republican-party-favorability-sinks-record-low.aspx]Gallup[/link], this poll shows the Republican Party at record levels of unpopularity. Only 24 percent have a favorable opinion of the GOP, and only 21 percent have a favorable opinion of the Tea Party. Both are “all-time lows in the history of the poll.”
– The Democratic party, by contrast, has a 39 percent favorability rating. That’s pretty much unchanged from recent months, and is in fact the precise same favorability number Democrats posted in May.
– Last month, voters preferred a Democratic Congress to a Republican Congress by three points. This month, it’s up to eight points.
– Obama’s approval rating has nudged up by two percent. This is a similar finding to the[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/07/postabc-news-poll-gop-is-getting-blamed-for-the-shutdown/]Washington Post/ABC News poll[/link], which found Obama’s numbers slightly improved even as the GOP plummeted.
The bad news for Obama is that 51 percent think he’s putting his political agenda ahead of the good of the country. The good news for Democrats is that 70 percent think the same of the GOP.
-[b] Despite the awful launch, Obamacare is becoming more popular. Last month, 31 percent said it was a good idea and 44 percent said it was a bad idea. This month, 38 percent think it’s a good idea and 43 percent think it’s a bad idea. [/b]
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shows Cruz control is not so bright after all if he could not see the political fallout from this IMHO
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Never was so bright. Strategy consisted solely of Obama conceding. So long as Obama & Harry stood firm Republicans had nowhere to go except self-destruct. Maybe Boehner’s strategy – if had any – was to give the Tea Party some rope until they all hung themselves then he would ride in & save the day by changing the subject & agreeing to talk.
We’ll see. Fat lady didn’t sing yet. -
Boehner has Congress probably wishing Nancy was running things IMHO..at least she showed some leadership and got things done. Cruz is a disaster for the republican party imho..
I hope Obama does not back down..we have come to far..stick with Reagan and stay the course/ completely ironic to use a favored republican’s logic against the GOP who seemed to support a guy who still has not given up his citizenship in another country and has had a hand in the shutdown
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Quote from aldadoc
Obama support tanking, approval rating now at 37% on AP poll. Buried deep in the article.
[link=http://bigstory.ap.org/article/poll-gop-gets-blame-shutdown]http://bigstory.ap.org/ar…op-gets-blame-shutdown[/link]
Told you!
Jennifer again. Looks like she’s becoming a RINO?
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/10/11/20-signs-youve-drunk-the-kool-aid/]http://www.washingtonpost…ve-drunk-the-kool-aid/[/link]-
Quote from Frumious
Quote from aldadoc
Obama support tanking, approval rating now at 37% on AP poll. Buried deep in the article.
[link=http://bigstory.ap.org/article/poll-gop-gets-blame-shutdown]http://bigstory.ap.org/ar…op-gets-blame-shutdown[/link]
Told you!
Jennifer again. Looks like she’s becoming a RINO?
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/10/11/20-signs-youve-drunk-the-kool-aid/]http://www.washingtonpost…ve-drunk-the-kool-aid/[/link]
Ah crap — I didn’t read the link before posting. You beat me to it.-
Every time a right pundit comes out and says how much of a disaster this episode has been, I say “Well if X says the GOP effed up, you are in trouble.” This has happened ALOT in the past week, especially this weekend.
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Aldadoc,
We’re STILL waiting for you to produce any shred of evidence that your OP reflects reality. Even the latest proposals from Cantor and Ryan only mention the debt and deficit and don’t mention Obamacare AT ALL!!!
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[link=http://washingtonexaminer.com/new-gop-strategy-offer-deal-on-debt-limit-but-keep-shutdown-fight-going/article/2537083]http://washingtonexaminer…-going/article/2537083[/link]
GOP decides to fight on , pushing for Obamacare mandate delay. Cruz was right!-
Quote from aldadoc
[link=http://washingtonexaminer.com/new-gop-strategy-offer-deal-on-debt-limit-but-keep-shutdown-fight-going/article/2537083]http://washingtonexaminer…-going/article/2537083[/link]
GOP decides to fight on , pushing for Obamacare mandate delay. Cruz was right!And yet the [i]”Sentiment to defund Obamacare grows”[/i] is no where in sight, huh?
Instead we have a House GOP that still insists it hates big government and has fooled itself into thinking it has “shut down” the government even though it has already waffled and agreed to fund 83% of the federal budget so far in wasteful piecemeal line item approvals in a folly that so far has cost Americans billions of dollars of precious tax dollars that you hate so much.
Great call, aldadoc.
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There’s truth in some of what you say, [b]NobodyHere[/b], but that said, under the same circumstances, how would your have proposed to be more successful with the items you listed after the 2010 election?
Reality is the Republicans have become much more radical since they impeached Clinton. And Obama has inherited the powers of the Unitary Executive. There is a lot I wish Obama could accomplish however, how. Please explain that to me, how he could have accomplished those things you list?
The Right & to some degree the middle & left is always talking about the things left undone and ignore what had been accomplished. The Right’s narrative is of failure yet we have an improving economy after stimulus & TARP, we are out of Iraq & getting out of Afghanistan, bin Laden is dead and so on. Think if the Right didn’t create so much drag on the economy how much better we could be.
Share some of that blame please where it belongs, Republican craziness & desperation. They are willing to keep the economy down for political ends among other actions.
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