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Risk in WH
Dr. Risk in the WH and the criminal role he played leading to what in essence has been manslaughter of 100s of thousands is a disgrace to the profession of medicine and an an embarrassment to all of Radiology. I say this as a former commissioned officer (Commander) in the US Public Health Service which I served for 6.5 years. I would urge that his credentials within Radiology and even medicine be revoked in order to save some semblance of respect for our profession.
Michael J. Vendrell, MD
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138 Replies
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Its my medical opinion based in part on my service in the USPHS.
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Stanford Med. should remove all affiliation with him.
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Agee.
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Id like to see the ACR take a stance on this – especially since Dr. Risk was operating well out of his area of expertise.
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First of all, this is a repost. Take a few seconds and look a few threads down.
Second, there are highly educated individuals on both sides of the argument. We dont really need to hear your opinion too.
Third, if you do want to post try to avoid the ridiculous hyperbole, manslaughter of 100s of thousands. It simply points to your posts as that of another partisan hack.
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I would request you refrain from calling me and/or any other posters/members on this site names. I have posted my educated opinion and nothing more.
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[link=https://www.google.com/search?q=Michael+J.+Vendrell%2C+MD&oq=Michael+J.+Vendrell%2C+MD&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8]https://www.google.com/se…id=chrome&ie=UTF-8[/link]
Some interesting items here.
Folks who live in glass houses….-
I used my real name unlike these other posters. Yes I am a radiologist and a breast imager and we deal with public health issues in that capacity. I was formerly in the USPHS serving the IHS in Albuquerque and Bemidji Areas and as general radiologist then and also director of the medical imaging departments of those areas I interfaced with other physicians including some from the CDC on public health issues. Im not a virologist but I can certainly look at numbers and predict what natural herd immunity would mean in terms of massive death toll. If you really want to know of my entire profession look at my linked in profile. The one you posted is about where I live but not where I practice.
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I was commissioned officer in USPHS 1995-2001 Rank O5:
Nominated for United States Public Health Clinical Physician of the Year 1999
PHS Commendation Medal 1999
PHS Unit Commendation Medal 1999
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I agree with you, and think its unfortunate this is has become political. One should be able to be a Republican or Democrat and call a spade a spade. Scott Atlas was out of his depth, and recognizing that should not have anything to do with what party you proudly identify with.
I kid you not, it is not fantastical to think that someone whose family member died of COVID may show up at Scott Atlas doorstep or workplace and kick his as5 or worse. Hed be wise to watch his back for the rest of his days.
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I propose a CV contest – winner determines whether to give Scott Atlas the presidential medal of freedom vs. he loses his medical license, goes to jail, and – worst of all – is formally censured by the ACR.
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Cancel culture is wrong and dangerous. Please take this garbage elsewhere.
i really feel sorry for pathetic individuals that melt when they run into opinions that run counter to their own. -
Im not really sure how all of this works relative to CV contest or cancel culture. I do know that I signed my opinion with my name such that some anonymous person posted a Google Search of my name to this thread. I replied to myself to point out the part of my career relative to this thread. I clearly made a mistake in owning my opinion when all the rest of you use vaguely funny pseudonyms. I have no power to implement my opinion about Dr. Atlas but he has I submit brought great shame onto those of us who are Radioligists and more or less keep our advice to patients, other physicians, and the public to areas where our professional training and/or experience are relevant scientifically.
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Agree w/ Flounce. Someone injured by COVID could be really pissed & may vent unpredictably. Atlas should stay wary. This isnt cancel culture…he leveraged his MD to potentially cause public health damage…basic stuff here
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Thanks for your opinion.
Think he did a fine job and just has a higher risk tolerance than is currently PC. He did state deaths would be higher from COVID, but harm from lockdowns and prolonged declining economy is worse.
As our government gets ready to print another trillion out of thin air, I hope he is wrong. If our currency is devalued enough and China takes over, he will be proven right.
Time will tell.
He does not deserve to be stripped of his ability to practice medicine for having an unpopular stance.
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It seems clear to me that time has already told. The damage to the economy has certainly not been from wearing masks for example but from the disease itself and its death toll and damage to the health care system. If USA had handled similarly to Germany for example wed have about 200K fewer dead people here in USA relative to our overall populations. It would have been true that if deaths were only delayed in time that earlier control would not have mattered that much in the longer term. However, given improvements in treatment and, importantly, the effective vaccines that will stop the pandemic IF we can get enough of our population vaccinated: deaths delayed are lives saved. Dr. Atlas was and is tragically wrong. This is not equivocal at this juncture. I for one hope he gets to live his life out productively – unlike the many who have and will perish based partially on his wrongheadedness -whether intentional or not. The damage hes inflicted on our profession of Radioligists in loss of reputation with the public is beyond calculation but profoundly not good. Remember though as any public health expert will tell you: vaccines do not save lives – vaccinations save lives. Eventually it is my fervent hope and prayer that in recovery from the Pandemic there will be economic recovery that reaches throughout our society. On that time will tell but alas that will likely take longer than any of us would want.
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Heres the calculation of how many Americans would have to die to reach herd immunity without a vaccine;
2,317,000
Thats 70% x 331M x case mortality of 1% which is on low side of case mortality rate thus far.
This is what Dr. Atlas was recommending: at least 2M and maybe as many as 4M Americans dead.
In this case the numbers dont lie!
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Name it “cancel culture” if you wish, but when a person calls for armed insurrection against public health measures, that person shouldn’t be welcomed back in to polite society. He shouldn’t get a nice corner office at Hoover or be giving invited keynote lectures at conferences.
Leave him alone to meet with friends, shop, undertake recreational travel as he wishes… but don’t honor him.
(and if someone happens to recognize him in an airport lounge some day and flips him the finger I won’t shed a tear.) -
Let me guess. You guys think Zeke Emmanuel will be great for the next administration.
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Quote from fushibob
Let me guess. You guys think Zeke Emmanuel will be great for the next administration.
Total [i]non sequitor[/i] but …
If you peruse the posting history in this forum I think you will find that the large majority of AM members, both left-leaning and right-leaning, are critical of Emmanuel. This is particulary acute with regards to his opinions on the future of diagnistic radiology.
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Now, back to discussing how Scott Atlas is a misguided jerk who was in over his head and called for Americans to rise up against Covid mitigation efforts and who, if allowed to have his vision become implemented public policy would have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousand of Americans.
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Quote from MVendrell
Heres the calculation of how many Americans would have to die to reach herd immunity without a vaccine;
2,317,000
Thats 70% x 331M x case mortality of 1% which is on low side of case mortality rate thus far.
This is what Dr. Atlas was recommending: at least 2M and maybe as many as 4M Americans dead.
In this case the numbers dont lie!
I admire you for using your real name to take a stand against SA tarnishing the reputation of radiologists by getting caught up with the Trump administration and it’s absurdity. However, when you do calculations like this when there is a lot more information available showing how flawed it is, it makes me wonder if you are just here trolling. I can understand doing this in April but now? At least you can change the 70% to 90% now that Fauci has made his latest proclamation. Frumi math must be precise! -
This was just a back of envelope calculation I did indeed do in March based on two quite conservative but fact-based assumptions: 1. That Herd immunity would be achieved at 70% of the population. 2. That case fatality rate would be 1% over longer term. Both % could be higher but likely not lower. I would welcome your more precise calculation. But Ill stand by my estimate that deaths from Covid-19 in the USA with no mitigation and no EFFECTIVE vaccination program would be in the 2-4 million range. I assure you Im no troll. Feel free to Peruse my LinkedIn profile.
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I used my fact-based assumptions from March precisely because (pun intended) I was showing that anyone with a modicum of thought and public health experience looking at the numbers in prospect then could have and should have seen where this was heading without mitigation and/or effective vaccination programs.
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As to what caused and will continue to cause the economic destruction; Sweden in their polite nonviolent but misguided ways already have done that experiment for the rest of us.
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Quote from MVendrell
It seems clear to me that time has already told. The damage to the economy has certainly not been from wearing masks for example but from the disease itself and its death toll and damage to the health care system.
The damage to the economy is not from the disease. It is from the society’s response to the disease. There has been little publicity about the VERY real damage that the RESPONSE to the virus has caused. Denying that there is damage from the response and only recognizing the direct injury from the virus marks one as blind to the nuanced view of the situation. Millions out of work, whole industries reeling (restaurants for example), children losing their education. Patients being too scared to go to the hospital for treatment of their evolving strokes, their MIs, their cancers. The media has been in full on panic mode since March. If it scares – it sells. Nothing about the collateral damage.
My mother in law has been seriously injured -in lockdown for 9 months – now disoriented and can barely stand because of lack of exercise as a result of the lockdown.
These two injuries – from the virus and from the response to the virus – must be balanced. We haven’t done that.
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Unfortunately we have now resorted to name calling. You (two) are DEFINITELY the ones who are stupid. Do you actually ever read scientific papers. They are more often than not full of errors and shoddy statistics. Don’t ever take them as fact just because they have a fancy name on them. You should have learned that in NP school. The main problem is with your chart predicts how long any individual will live on average based ONLY on their age. It does not account for the fact that some 80 year olds are much more likely to die than others. So you have two 80 year olds. The unhealthier one is much more likely to die in the immediate future from SOMETHING, and as it so happens they WERE the ones who have died from covid. As I stated previously if you were to perform these same analyses on the actual patient population who have died from Covid, you would find that their expected years of life remaining to be much much lower than in the charts you linked. My method is about as accurate as you can be with the data available. A good example is childhood cancer. IE cancer that kills a kid at an average age of 10. You would say they lost around 70 years of life if the average age expectancy is 80. That is essentially what my calculation is stating in regards to COVID.
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We didn’t come up with the term, I’m sorry you don’t like the name. See attachment, must be a good view from up there.
As I said, the papers on this topic vary in how much they account for co-morbidities. Those that do more aggressively are in the 9-10 year range, those than don’t are in the 12-13 year range. The people publishing these papers likely knew about the actuarial life tables from social security without having to be told about them.
I have to admit, I do find it LOL funny they you think your 3rd grade math is the “case cracker” on this topic.
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Phil is most definitely not stupid. For example, I dont believe he would be caught dead wearing a black turtleneck in his doximity photo.
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Phil was caught in the crossfire….
gasmasspoas was referring to fw and myself saying he/she was on top of Mount Stupid.
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Quote from Radsoxfan
Phil was caught in the crossfire….
gasmasspoas was referring to fw and myself saying he/she was on top of Mount Stupid.
I was wondering about that – I was a bit mystified….
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Quote from TheFlash
Stanford Med. should remove all affiliation with him.
This will almost certainly happen. I think it already has. Hoover handouts may be gone too.
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Quote from drad123
Quote from TheFlash
Stanford Med. should remove all affiliation with him.
This will almost certainly happen. I think it already has. Hoover handouts may be gone too.
Yeah. That Condi Rice was front and center in the public comments rebuking him shows that the anti-Atlas forces are quite strong.
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Quote from MVendrell
Dr. Risk in the WH and the criminal role he played leading to what in essence has been manslaughter of 100s of thousands is a disgrace to the profession of medicine and an an embarrassment to all of Radiology. I say this as a former commissioned officer (Commander) in the US Public Health Service which I served for 6.5 years. I would urge that his credentials within Radiology and even medicine be revoked in order to save some semblance of respect for our profession.
Michael J. Vendrell, MD
Write a letter to the ACR.
How does your former status as a commissioned officer in the US Public Health Service qualify you to make this determination?
Qualifications- US Public Health Service[/h3]
M.D. from a U.S. or Canadian program accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education sponsored by the Association of American Medical Colleges and the American Medical Association (AMA)D.O. degree from a program accredited by the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation of the American Osteopathic Association (AOA)
Certified by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates if you are a graduate of a medical school that is not located within a U.S. State or territory or other jurisdiction, or a Province or Territory of Canada
One completed year of postgraduate medical education (e.g., internship or first year of residency training) in a program accredited by the Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education of the AMA or the Bureau of Osteopathic Education of the AOA
Current, unrestricted, and valid medical license from any U.S. state, Washington D.C., Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, or Guam
Physicians in the USPHS Commissioned Corps serve their country in places like prisons, Indian country, the civil service, and the laboratory.
Where did you work and what did you do?
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See my full discussion about all that in the thread above. Or you can scroll down in my LinkedIn profile that someone else posted to this thread. Look to the bottom for 1995-2001, recommendations, honors and awards as well. I have an MD. I was assigned to IHS in Albuquerque and Bemidji Areas. I interacted with other physicians including some from CDC.
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I did call the ACR and asked for an appropriate email to send my concerns but they did not get back to me.
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Quote from MVendrell
See my full discussion about all that in the thread above. Or you can scroll down in my LinkedIn profile that someone else posted to this thread. Look to the bottom for 1995-2001, recommendations, honors and awards as well. I have an MD. I was assigned to IHS in Albuquerque and Bemidji Areas. I interacted with other physicians including some from CDC.
Interacted?
What were you assigned to do? Radiology?-
You all might want to save your breath and enjoy the holidays. No one has ever said, Wow, I think I should change my deeply ingrained political views based on an abrasive comment posted online by a stranger. Merry Christmas.
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Quote from MVendrell
Dr. Risk in the WH and the criminal role he played leading to what in essence has been manslaughter of 100s of thousands is a disgrace to the profession of medicine and an an embarrassment to all of Radiology. I say this as a former commissioned officer (Commander) in the US Public Health Service which I served for 6.5 years. I would urge that his credentials within Radiology and even medicine be revoked in order to save some semblance of respect for our profession.
Michael J. Vendrell, MD
You wouldn’t commit the same sin you are accusing others of- would you? -
Quote from MVendrell
Dr. Risk in the WH and the criminal role he played leading to what in essence has been manslaughter of 100s of thousands is a disgrace to the profession of medicine and an an embarrassment to all of Radiology. I say this as a former commissioned officer (Commander) in the US Public Health Service which I served for 6.5 years. I would urge that his credentials within Radiology and even medicine be revoked in order to save some semblance of respect for our profession.
Michael J. Vendrell, MD
Atlas should of let all his medical credentials expire before joining the white house.
Most attorneys do this.
Obama retired his IL license before assuming office. Bill Clinton did not and got sucked into Ark license and Supreme court license issues.-
I agree Atlas did not have the right credentials. You could say the same about practically all the MDs we see on tv. Being a neurosurgeon or radiologist does not make one an expert on all medical topics.
I am no fan of Atlas but I agree that blaming him for tons of deaths is hyperbole.
The problem here is it isnt purely a medical or political discussion. In my opinion it is a philosophical one. Losing a loved one is tragic and I feel for anyone personally affected by Covid. But the societal costs of our response to this virus (school closures, unemployment, depression, etc.) should not be ignored. I personally feel as though the discussions on herd immunity are reasonable…it was the path throughout human history up until now. Now we have a vaccine so might as well put it to good use.
But as a society we lose track of how lucky we are. If you lived a century ago you were lucky to live to adulthood and lucky to survive any illness. Today society seems to view any death, even in old and unhealthy people as completely unacceptable.
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Yes I am a Radiologist. I am now a breast imager and software inventor for breast imaging and we deal with public health issues and statistics in screening All the Time – albeit for chronic diseases – but multiplication is multiplication and we learned that in grade school. I was a General Radiologist including Mammography and Vascular studies when I was Medical Director of Medical imaging for Albuquerque and Bemidji Areas of IHS and also was nationwide consultant for Medical Imaging of IHS. BUT this is not about me or my CV for the love of Pete. If you assume that 70% or so of the population must contract a disease to achieve natural herd immunity and you assume based on facts that the case mortality rate is for example 1% and you know the population of the USA ( ~331M) anyone can by simple multiplication figure out how many of us will die if there are no effective mitigation measures and no effective vaccination program. This is Not Rocket Scientology!
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I also then had RVT credential although Ive not kept up fees to ARDMS.
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Quote from MVendrell
I also then had RVT credential although Ive not kept up fees to ARDMS.
Of what relevance is this to a viral pandemic?
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Statistics are Statistics. The question here is what should the advice be to the executive branch. Feel free to tell us what you would advise. My motivations are immaterial although I assure you they are not to troll and Ill never do this again – and certainly not with my name. I had hoped this would be professional and not like a FB slugfest. Clearly I was wrong on that account. If you cannot have a discussion about the issue without attacking those discussing and questioning their motivation I dont see the purpose in further participating in this forum.
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To become a radiologist is to sink into obscurity. Our reputation in the public eye will be unchanged after this all blows over.
Sad but probably true. Security through Obscurity as we used to say about Macs 😉
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Quote from MVendrell
To become a radiologist is to sink into obscurity. Our reputation in the public eye will be unchanged after this all blows over.
Sad but probably true. Security through Obscurity as we used to say about Macs 😉
What do you propose we should of done? National 6 month shutdown?
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What we should have done is probably not possible for our Federalist System but if it were we should have shut down HARD And Uniformly across the Nation for about 4-6 weeks similar to what was done in Queensland, Australia and then reopen carefully with near universal mask use. Theres plenty of blame to go around for the incredibly poor messaging on mask use at almost all levels. Im not usually this prescient but I was screaming to myself the first time I heard the Surgeon General (Head if USPHS) day the incredibly stupid thing he said about masks. Definitely Not a prolonged 6-month cluster-Frak as would be said on BattleStar Galactica that we in fact got. And again we should have all been wearing masks from almost the inception of the pandemic. What would you have done?
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I will say that as a Breast Imager and Interventionalist I enjoy not being obscure to my patients. Its the primary reason I choose the sub speciality – that and the real opportunity to significantly extend lifespan for people – most of them women of course.
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Quote from MVendrell
What we should have done is probably not possible for our Federalist System but if it were we should have shut down HARD And Uniformly across the Nation for about 4-6 weeks similar to what was done in Queensland, Australia and then reopen carefully with near universal mask use. Theres plenty of blame to go around for the incredibly poor messaging on mask use at almost all levels. Im not usually this prescient but I was screaming to myself the first time I heard the Surgeon General (Head if USPHS) day the incredibly stupid thing he said about masks. Definitely Not a prolonged 6-month cluster-Frak as would be said on BattleStar Galactica that we in fact got. And again we should have all been wearing masks from almost the inception of the pandemic. What would you have done?
What we should have done is probably not possible for our Federalist System- how can you blame the White house and Atlas for something that is not possible.
The only thing I would of done differently is have Trump and Atlas shut their mouths.-
I blame anyone who makes a terrible situation worse and embarrasses Radiologists of which I am and Im thinking you are one too? Positive messaging from the WH would have gotten partway toward my ideal goal which you asked me and I answered. What we got was worse than awful. I can certainly blame Trump and Atlas and Pence and SG and even Birx for their roles in incompetence and evil. That may governors including mine in TX did such too little too late jobs I blame as well. Abbott overruled Clay Jenkins the Chief Executive of Dallas County. Clay is a friend and had played very positive roles in the Ebola and Zika virus scares.
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DFW is the 4th most populous Metroplex in the USA, btw. Just behind Chicago.
Houston/Harris county is huge too. -
The CDC was intentionally hobbled both domestically and importantly more than decimated in its former presence in China for advanced warning.
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Quote from MVendrell
I blame anyone who makes a terrible situation worse and embarrasses Radiologists of which I am and Im thinking you are one too? Positive messaging from the WH would have gotten partway toward my ideal goal which you asked me and I answered. What we got was worse than awful. I can certainly blame Trump and Atlas and Pence and SG and even Birx for their roles in incompetence and evil. That may governors including mine in TX did such too little too late jobs I blame as well. Abbott overruled Clay Jenkins the Chief Executive of Dallas County. Clay is a friend and had played very positive roles in the Ebola and Zika virus scares.
This is part of the reason Trump didn’t get re-elected.
Texas voted for Trump and they voted to re-elect him. Is the state of Texas culpable? -
This is not the time or place for that discussion but Ill say that weve got an undeniable fractured social-contract in our Nation and yes I believe in personal and collective responsibility (for things good and not so much as in this case) and I was working actively on and for the side that didnt win in TX – this time around. . .
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Quote from MVendrell
This is not the time or place for that discussion but Ill say that weve got an undeniable fractured social-contract in our Nation and yes I believe in personal and collective responsibility (for things good and not so much as in this case) and I was working actively on and for the side that didnt win in TX – this time around. . .
At least you are not an ideologue
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I am saddened that this forum is so much less about ideas and so ad hominem (and rude) about who we are and specifically who I am rather than the problem and issue Im trying to learn more about in order to make things better. I wont be coming back here because I can now see that yall just like to argue and some name-call. I found no solution oriented ideas from any of the postings. Part of our broken social-contract with one another. Profoundly sad. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
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Quote from MVendrell
I am saddened that this forum is so much less about ideas and so ad hominem (and rude) about who we are and specifically who I am rather than the problem and issue Im trying to learn more about in order to make things better. I wont be coming back here because I can now see that yall just like to argue and some name-call. I found no solution oriented ideas from any of the postings. Part of our broken social-contract with one another. Profoundly sad. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
That was a compliment. LOL
This should tell you something. There are no easy answers to “the rona.” I am happy with our progress.
Merry Christmas! -
Mvendrell, thanks for your messages. This forum is good for some discussions. Others, not so much. Keep up the activism; everybody has an opinion and can type, but not everybody rolls up their sleeves and tries to do something about it.
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^ . I can certainly blame Trump and Atlas and Pence and SG and even Birx for their roles in incompetence and evil. That may governors including mine in TX…
Well, what a surprise statement from you. Meanwhile, Gavin Newsom has done such a wonderful job completing shutting down California. That sure has worked well.
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I mention TX in particular only because I was born here, went to medical school in Dallas, and in 2011 returned here to live. Ill let others in their own states say what they will about those.
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Im out. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to All!
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Youre all being too harsh. Let it go. I dont completely agree or disagree with the OP. But I do believe he is not a troll and that he is educated on the topic. I just think it is not as cut and dry as he makes it out to be.
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Quote from MVendrell
This is Not Rocket Scientology!
This joke wins!
We can close the thread now.
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You are angry because you believe he is wrong and no expert on epidemiology…based on your (also a radiologist) back of the napkin math. There are differences of opinion on everything but you seem a bit unhinged here.
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The facts are now clear and the multiplication elementary. This is not a matter of opinion. The extent to which any single individual is responsible cannot be determined. But that Dr. Atlas advice was stupid and mean and cavalier is incontrovertible. That he has damaged the reputation of Radiology is also without any question in my mind. Im angry and justifiably so that so many Americans have died and the economy has been so damaged by things that were avoidable such as not wearing masks and using strict SHORT-TERM shutdowns such as Germany and Australia used. I would agree that rolling long term slow-downs and not enough mask-wearing across the USA have been insane on both health and economic levels. A lot of people – not all of them old and infirm / have died who didnt need to and we still have a deeply damaged economy.
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Quote from MVendrell
The facts are now clear and the multiplication elementary.
Just to be clear. The appropriate number to place in your elementary multiplication is CFR?-
Yes. I used 1%. Its certainly somewhere in the range of 0.5 – 3.0%. What do you think the CFR is?
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Your answer and follow up question displays such ignorance that I am compelled to believe my first impression of your reason for participating here.
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Yes. I used 1%. Its certainly somewhere in the range of 0.5 – 3.0%. What do you think the CFR is?
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Quote from MVendrell
Yes. I used 1%. Its certainly somewhere in the range of 0.5 – 3.0%. What do you think the CFR is?
I am saddened that this forum is so much less about ideas and so ad hominem (and rude) about who we are and specifically who I am rather than the problem and issue Im trying to learn more about in order to make things better. I wont be coming back here because I can now see that yall just like to argue and some name-call. I found no solution oriented ideas from any of the postings. Part of our broken social-contract with one another. Profoundly sad. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
I merged two of your posts to apologize for calling your first sentence ignorant and I wanted to let you have the Merry Christman you wished us all. I should have realized that you were not around for the extensive conversation about the difference between CFR and IFR and why one cannot simply multiply CFR by population at risk to predict on overall mortality rate. Even the AM members who you would consider to be “on your side” have come to understand this. They now recognize that the millions of dead number was a poor prediction with flawed numbers. Some want to give those that made that prediction a break because “we didn’t know very much back then”. That’s understandable. However, very few if any here now believe over a million would have died by now if everyone followed Scott Atlas’s advice.
I’m glad RSF is participating here. You will like him. Despite his tendency to mock and ridicule those who are not in his “tribe”, he is pretty good with math and he mostly sticks to his promise to “stick to science”. He can assure you that even if CFR is as high as your upper bound, we won’t see a million deaths before the vaccine begins to play a significant role, even if states said “screw it, lets do what Scott Atlas told us”. In fact, can we agree that is pretty much what South Dakota, Florida and perhaps Texas have done?
Now I am not saying what those states did was smart or the right thing to do. In fact I am not judging at all. I am merely asking those that have participated here to use their experience as a guide to understand what the absolute risk might be if businesses stayed open with moderate mitigation efforts in place.
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Red Sox fan refuses to actually tell me why I am wrong. He just resorts to name calling. The reality is that diseases that only kill old people result in much fewer lost years of life per patient than those that kill younger people. The math shows that the average weighted age of a COVID patient who dies is 74. Do you actually believe that these patients have on average 13 more years left of life?
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I remain confused by your argument, an argument in opposition to every paper on this subject.
[link=https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html]https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html[/link]
A 74 year old man has on average 11.76 years of life left.
A 74 year old woman has on average 13.61 years of life left.
Are you asking me if I believe the data on this table? That’s your argument? That this table is incorrect? LOL again. I needed a good laugh tonight.
As I said before, some papers more aggressively correct for co-morbidities and the results are in the 9-10 years of life lost per death rather than 12-13.
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Details on CFR and IFR (infection fatality rate) at this link. Discussed are reasons why CFR could be overestimated or underestimated:
[link=https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid?country=~USA#case-fatality-rate-of-covid-19-by-age]https://ourworldindata.or…ate-of-covid-19-by-age[/link]
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Did you learn there why you cant use CFR to multiply by population at risk to give a prediction of total mortality?
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Yes but IFR Im estimating will still likely come out to about 1% when the overestimate of CFR based on under- diagnosis and the underestimate of CFR based on under-fatality rate because of too short of follow-up and deaths from undiagnosed cases are taken into account. You could have taught rather than being a condescending jerk and name-caller about this. But alas your moniker is from my point of view inaccurate
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I apologized for calling you ignorant. I just asked another question without any name calling. Im truly sorry you found that condescending.
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I stand by my original post that achieving herd immunity without mitigation and without effective vaccination program would lead to unacceptable loss of life in the millions and unacceptable loss of years of life in the tens of millions. And also that the role of a public heath physician is to minimize loss of lives and suffering and years of life lost rather than unfounded theories about the economy as Dr. Atlas did. And Id also add that excess deaths by ALL causes is the least tainted single number to judge the damage to humanity by COVID 19.
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You called me a troll and questioned my motivations. Why did you not share what you know rather than quiz me?
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This Covid-19 pandemic has killed more people per capita in the US than the 1957 influenza pandemic.
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MV. Im sorry this has triggered an emotional response se from you. I questioned if you might be a troll based on your initial posts and you have assured me you are not. I agree I could have been kinder and more collaborative in my interaction.
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Im sorry you reacted that way is a limited apology but Ill accept it. The bigger issue for me is that not a single poster to this thread offered any prospective solutions and only a few expanded knowledge – you not among them. Is arguing, attacking other professionals, and rank political screed (much of it wack-a-doodle to be kind) the purpose of this forum and the motivation of its posters?! Ive been profoundly disappointed and wont be posting again as an OP. AND I posted with my name and degree. You and most other posters posted completely anonymously with profile not publicly available. And yall question my credentials and my motivations?! Shame on you.
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One earlier poster actually posted a giggle search of me to discredit me. But the lead link in that Goggle Search followed by some inaccurate garbage from www was to my LinkedIn account – a perusal of such will show Im respected in my field (breast reporting and data tracking software and Breast MRI), that Ive had awards and recommendations from my 6.5 years in the USPHS and that Im certainly not a troll.
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*Google search. . .
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I will also point out explicitly that learning the VALUES of a Physician in general and a Public Health Physician in particular is at least as important as specific knowledge of virology or advance knowledge of terminology of Bio-statistics.
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Good Gawd, man, there is something really wrong with you. Borderline personality? Paranoid? I’m no shrink, but all you want to do here is bury that jerk Atlas and fight with everyone who doesn’t agree.
You keep promising to stop posting. So [i]stop[/i]. Unless you in your infinite wisdom really do have some miraculous solution to all this mess. Which I seriously doubt that you do.
BTW…check in the Giggle search your reviews. Wouldn’t be too proud of them. -
That wasnt very nice CE. Unfortunately, quite accurate.
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Ok – there is one imposter who posted stuff about me on the www. Im not worried about that or the silliness of other anonymous posters. Try doing something positive for humanity.
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MV this site has plenty of tribal partisanship. You just stumbled into it. There are few here that stick to data and science. Perhaps you can figure out who they are. I would suggest not engaging with them until you get your facts straight.
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Good Advice if I ever am silly enough to do an OP again. I reserve the right to reply to this thread as I started it. CE is an excellent example of an ad hominem attack that accomplishes nothing positive. I do not take attacks personally from anonymous posters. Im just disappointed in this forum which after this thread is ended I wont be returning to.
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From an outsiders perspective you came on here to make a proclamation that you were hoping everyone would agree with and pat you on your back. Im sorry it wasnt that simple. This place is not about that. There are a few here that will stick to data and science. Most fall quickly into their tribal and partisan stances. Dont worry. There are plenty in your tribe.
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I would have welcomed disagreement backed by reason, science, and data. I was responding to and commenting on the article by the editor of AM, who I know obliquely, as he has interviewed my co-founders of a company based upon my concepts and patents (see LinkedIn) both of whom are WAY more famous than me – one perhaps the most famous Radiologist in the world prior to the infamy of Dr. Atlas. Some things are right vs wrong. Ill let each of you decide where yall come down on these.
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To attempt to argue with those who have renounced reason is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine
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Quote from MVendrell
I would have welcomed disagreement backed by reason, science, and data.
When confronted with such, albeit in an insulting way, you told us you wanted to pick up your ball and go home. Would you like to engage in a discussion about data? Thats easy. You are absolutely wrong in your belief that several million U.S. citizens were at risk of death from COVID if everyone followed SAs advice, even if one uses total excess mortality as your measuring stick. -
How about lets get to the heart of your original premise. If individuals or governments chose to follow the political hacks advice then the death toll would have been monumental compared to what we saw through mitigation. Surely no place would have been foolish enough to do so right?
Wait, what did South Dakota do? If I remember correctly their republican governor pretty much followed the playbook. What a shame. At 1% IFR they most have lost several thousand citizen by now.
In case you havent figured me out yet, I love sarcasm and satire. However, I will be honest that I think your person of interest in this thread is a fool. Particularly because he chose to ingratiate himself with a bigger fraud, liar and despicable human. Unfortunately that fact does not change the science involved. -
I am not aware of any such presentation on this thread. Please lay out the argument for herd immunity without a vaccination program and eschewing mask wearing and other mitigations and what your estimate of the death toll would be from such an approach. For this we can dispense with political arguments including what any individual in the Trump Administration did or did not advocate. What should be advised and implemented in your opinion going forward would be an opinion welcomed by me.
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Your post passed in the ether. I marked it as helpful.
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Quote from MVendrell
Your post passed in the ether. I marked it as helpful.
I wasnt sure. Forgive me for doubling down.
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The easiest place to research the science discussed on here is the all news COVID thread or if you can find it the nothing burger thread. Unfortunately you will soon see there is way too much labeling, mockery and ridicule in them. If you can look past that you will probably learn something.
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I know its a fine line but my original post referred to Dr. Risk and his role and advice of an ongoing unmitigated approach to herd immunity as being partially pursued and contemplated by the Trump administration. I did not mention Dr. Atlas or Mr. Trump by name in the original precisely because I hoped to engender a discussion of what would happen without mitigation and without an effective vaccination program. We can quibble about terms and numbers but clearly most of us agree this would be not good. I also think we mostly agree that widespread vaccination on a schedule ASAP would be a very good thing. How do we support and encourage such is I would submit the most important question facing us tomorrow.
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The other area I had hoped to see rigorously discussed was the Medical Ethics of Physicians practicing in the PUBLIC HEALTH space – including those in mostly if not exclusively political role such as Dr. Atlas, but also those in the executive branch including but not limited to political appointees and career Federal Physicians – both Commissioned Officers in the USPHS and Physicians employed as Civil Servants. Frontline agencies include CDC, NIH, and DHHS. Alas none of this happened and I largely blame myself in posing the questions in a way that immediately led to political rancor rather than Ethical and/or Scientific dialogue. Again, while Science is important so is Ethics. Both require rational and collegial discourse. Naïve of me to expect either of these core facilities needed to pursue the public good. Ive learned that lesson – as important as any correction of terminological in exactitude of mine – although Im glad you corrected me on IFR vs CFR. Live and Learn. . .
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BTW, Im as much a fan of humor as anyone. However, Sarcasm does not usually aid communication. Munication without the co- perhaps as we snark to ourselves with no plan to connect with another.
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Quote from MVendrell
Both require rational and collegial discourse. Naïve of me to expect either of these core facilities needed to pursue the public good. Ive learned that lesson – as important as any correction of terminological in exactitude of mine – although Im glad you corrected me on IFR vs CFR. Live and Learn. . .
“pursue the public good” sounds so simple. It should be obvious what that is, right? Thousands of posts later we are no closer to finding the answer. Lots of people wasted too much in the process IMO. I was surprised you wanted to get yourself involved. -
Quote from MVendrell
I did not mention Dr. Atlas or Mr. Trump by name in the original precisely because I hoped to engender a discussion of what would happen without mitigation and without an effective vaccination program. We can quibble about terms and numbers but clearly most of us agree this would be not good. I also think we mostly agree that widespread vaccination on a schedule ASAP would be a very good thing. How do we support and encourage such is I would submit the most important question facing us tomorrow.
I previously stated that once one starts using judging words such as “good” and “not good” one has ventured into the realm of politics and not science. There is already plenty of that type of discussion on here and I choose to stay out of it. -
Yes – there are questions of Science AND Ethics. Practice of Medicine demands both. Certainly Science is important and you are of course entitled to deal with only that and you do it well. I choose as a scientific physician to approach both to the best of my ability. If Science is not used in service of The Good what becomes of us?
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I stumbled into to this forum by accident as I mistakenly thought I was writing a letter to the editor like response. I did not realize until it was too late that Id entered an anonymous slugfest. Ive got philosophical blogs to interact with elsewhere and Ill leave this for yall to do with as you wish or see best for yourselves.
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Quote from MVendrell
Yes – there are questions of Science AND Ethics. Practice of Medicine demands both. Certainly Science is important and you are of course entitled to deal with only that and you do it well. I choose as a scientific physician to approach both to the best of my ability. If Science is not used in service of The Good what becomes of us?
I am merely describing what I choose to discuss in this forum. I have noticed that one will be labeled and assigned a tribe here if one strays even the slightest from the party line in terms of what the “science” means. This does not mean that I do not enjoy a good ethical discussion among colleagues on the workplace or home. I’m pretty sure you and I would enjoy the process in person. As you can see it’s not a very enjoyable process in here. Flounce said it best early on. Go back and read his post. -
Good is implied in Public Health Policies, Departments, and Public Health Service. We dont have Good Public Health Departments and balancing Bad Public Health Departments – one aimed at decreasing suffering and death and another at increasing both – or at least we didnt used to. If you ever want to discuss this or anything else in totality you can easily find my email. Im not anonymous. Good to connect. Michael
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So question??
Here in So. California, where we have some of the strictest lockdowns, mask mandates, etc…..COVID is [u][b]exploding[/b][/u]. Should we be demanding the resignation and blacklisting of all the leaders of the health department? Christina Ghaly, M.D., etc., like ruin her life because she obviously is causing people to die?
Seriously, just asking. -
one could say there has not been enough time to see the measures work….
On the other hand there are a few “common knowledge” issues that have not panned out.
Like – when schools open, there will be an explosion of cases. There has not been. In fact, what I have seen says schools are NOT a super spreader issue.
Like – ALL that travel on Thanksgiving will cause and explosion of cases. That has not happened. If anything, the curve flattened a bit since Thanksgiving.What we have is a wealth of hypotheses that magically morph into accepted truths without proof. And a dearth of discussion of what REALLY has happened and is happening.
Separately – – –
I have been thinking about my earlier post about the difference between the damage caused by the virus and the damage caused by the response to the virus.We have two truths 1) the virus kills some people. and 2) the economic effects of the response harm some people.
Two ends of the spectrum
If the virus killed no people, then the response would be causing only harm, and it would be obvious to stop the response
if the Response were harmless, then it would be obvious to put the pedal to the metal and reduce deaths to zero.But that isn’t the way it works. Both are true in some extent, and we cannot measure either, so we get these groups of people
1) People over 75 who will be most likely to die, but because of social security, etc, will be largely untouched by the response and
2) people <40 who will be very unlikely to die, but will experience the most economic damage.Our problem is that we cannot quantify either the number of deaths (at least the number that WILL occur) or the economic damage that will occur. And so we argue amorphous “beliefs”. “I believe that the number of deaths prevented is worth the economic damage” OR “The number of deaths prevented is small relative to the serious economic damage”
There is no way to prove or disprove either statement, they are only beliefs.
Like …. religion.There is an exception: Taiwan.
It has had nearly no deaths, and it has not shut down. How? They mandated masks early (as only an Asian culture can), and strictly enforced 14 day quarantines on ANYONE coming into the country. These were monitored by cell phone. Your phone was tracked and you had to be in your place of residence. You couldn’t leave the phone behind, because they made random calls 2 x per day. If the battery ran down, they came knocking on your door. Penalty for violation: $33,000.
The cases and deaths they have had have been nearly exclusively among those arriving in the country.
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You are correct. Its not in this thread. It is however present in fine detail if one chooses to spend some time researching. I am not about to rehash it for a newcomer. For now I have given you the best place to look if you would like to know what would happen if a government official chose to follow the SA plan. Remember, even SA has said it is not a race to herd immunity, although our friend RSF accused them of just that a few weeks back. Of course there are many reasons to not believe what people say. Especially if one wants prop up a straw man and then tear it down.
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“The facts are now clear”. Ok, let us lay out the facts.
300k excess deaths in 2020. Can most of these excess deaths be attributed to Covid? In all likelihood yes. It is also true that the majority of the people who died were people destined to die in the next few years. If the vaccine is effective at achieving herd immunity, we will likely see a lower death rate than average in 2022 and beyond for a few years. The argument for aggressive lockdowns is that you could keep these vulnerable people safe until the vaccine becomes available, thus potentially extending their natural life for several years. The argument against aggressive lockdowns is the economic, social, and medical costs that come with shutdowns. These are much harder to measure than deaths, and will have effects on our society for years to come. What the facts show is that there is no “clear consensus” about what is right and wrong, only differences in what people value. We may look back 10 years from now and consider the measures we took to be excessive, or we may wish we had done more. Life is much more complex than your multiplication tables. It is important to keep that in mind when making aggressive proclamations about revoking the medical credentials of one of the most reknowned neuroradiologists in our profession.-
Quote from gasmasspsoas
“The facts are now clear”. Ok, let us lay out the facts.
300k excess deaths in 2020. Can most of these excess deaths be attributed to Covid? In all likelihood yes. It is also true that the majority of the people who died were people destined to die in the next few years.
[link=https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.18.20214783v2]https://www.medrxiv.org/c…/2020.10.18.20214783v2[/link]
Average years of life lost per death is 13.25 according to this study. I have seen other studies ranging from 9 to 13 years of life lost per death.
[link=https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200923124557.htm]https://www.sciencedaily….20/09/200923124557.htm[/link]
[link=https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.08.20050559v2]https://www.medrxiv.org/c…/2020.06.08.20050559v2[/link]
The ones on the lower end typically do a more aggressive downward estimate for higher co-morbidities and shorter life span in COVID patients at any given age of death.
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Disagree with Trump and you are fired. Agree with him and you should be promoted. Life is not fair. I imagine Atlas should be promoted for the damage he has done. At the least, he was probably paid really well. It would be wonderful if real life followed ethics, unfortunately real life is politics.
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Thank you for the links. The first paper states: “An important variable that this and other studies have not been able to adequately incorporate into this analysis is the effect of comorbidities on life expectancy of COVID-19 deaths which is due to a lack of appropriate statistical information. This must, therefore, be considered a potential source of error.”
Not using comorbidities as part of the analysis automatically disqualifies the paper as meaningful. The other two papers linked did not provide details for their methods.-
All I will say about this is that as Physicians we swear an oath to our patients and by extension the public. It is not the role of Any Physician as a Physician to judge whether any patient or group of patients should or should not die today. So Physicians doing politics in Government are held by me anyway to the same oath. If they wish to depart from that oath then relinquish their roles as physicians and become solely politicians who can and do for example judge who lives and who dies and how much a persons death contributes to the economy. As a Physician and one who has served in the USPHS as a physician I never took politics and the value of other persons lives to be up to my judgement. As a person who will be 70 in April neither am I ready to die on the alter of a false promise of economic gain for others that I question the logic of.
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And what do you defenders of Trump and Atlas to their support of anti-maskers – even those threatening violence? NO coherent message about mask wearing came out of the Trump Administration and the bad exampling came from the top. Dont give me any shape-shifting jive about lock-downs PLEASE.
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Man, you are an instant aunt Minnie addict.
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Added word say :
And what do you defenders of Trump and Atlas say to their support of anti-maskers – even those threatening violence? NO coherent message about mask wearing came out of the Trump Administration and the bad exampling came from the top. Dont give me any shape-shifting jive about lock-downs PLEASE.
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Im soon to give up this short term addiction to this forum and go do something fun and/or helpful to others.
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You know I don’t think its helpful to make these absolute partisan statements, like X is responsible for 100,000s of deaths. It just demonstrates an intentional politicization of a tragedy and half the people in this country might agree but the other half will tell you to F off.
Any intelligent person understands just about any outcome is multifaceted, so at least proportion it out. For example if we want to lay blame for virus deaths I would say China is 80% responsible, democrats fake impeachment distraction 5%, Trump 5%, etc. Blaming Atlas for all the deaths for suggesting more of a Florida strategy vs. Califnoria is wrong. Especially since all the infection/death graphs looks pretty darn similar.
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You are probably right but as Oscar Wilde said; If one doesnt exaggerate – theres no point in talking atall. Excess deaths in USA I calculate by comparing to Germany and Australia for example – not of course blaming all the deaths on anyone or any administration. Youll notice perhaps that my original post named a fictional Dr. Risk and not Dr. Atlas or even name Trump. But lets be honest here: Dr. Atlas has not followed the Physicians Oath and Trump and his Administration has made a terrible situation HORRIBLE. Not the least of this has been their stance against mask-wearing – some of it encouraging violence. PLEASE get REAL.
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But lets be honest here: Dr. Atlas has not followed the Physicians Oath and Trump and his Administration have made a terrible situation HORRIBLE. Not the least of this has been their stance against mask-wearing – some of it encouraging violence.
AGAIN I PLEAD: PLEASE address mask-wearing and NOT the shibboleth of lock-down or not to lock-down?!
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A CHALLENGE FOR 2021:
I challenge each poster to this forum and anyone who wants to add to propose 1 policy that would improve the health of the American people and of our Economy. For this challenge it has to be IMPROVED HEALTH AND IMPROVED ECONOMY. Not one or the other. Please no mention of any political party or any politician. And please no attacking or snarking or condescending to one another!
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I strongly disagreed with Scott Atlas when he voiced his recommendations on public policy relating to his Covid strategy. I know he claimed he was not espousing a “herd immunity” strategy, but I thought had his vision been implemented many, many thousands of people would have died unneccessarily.
He felt he was making that opinion in the best interest of society as a whole. That opinion was well outside of the public health mainstream. That opinion deserved to be challenged and it was correct to fight against its implementation.
But at that point, Scott Atlas was still acting as a professional in good faith.
But … once he called for people to “rise up” against public health measures, that crossed a line.
That was the Rubicon. There should be no coming back into polite professional society after a public figure makes such a call for insurrection. That is especially true when Atlas was fully aware that there had already been incidents of domestic right wing terrorism around mitigation efforts including a plan to abduct and potentially murder the Governor of Michigan.
Even with our broad first amendment speech protections, that kind of commentary could well have been taken as a true incitement of immediate lawless action.
Scott Altas should be fired from Hoover, stripped from any standing at Stanford, and never again be allowed to be given a platform to have a an audience larger than his dinner from which to make public policy pronouncements.
He should get the professional death penalty. -
Well said. He should be able to lead any life that pursues his happiness as long as he doesnt harm others but he has fatally broken his Pledge as a Physician and unless and until he makes amends should not be given the Privilege of The Practice of Medicine. I fervently hope and pray that each of us move in toward seeking solutions to our Nations Crisis of Health and Economy.
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I fervently hope and pray that each of us move on toward seeking solutions to our Nations Crisis of Health and Economy.
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To all those who attacked me personally: Bless Your Hearts!
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You know, I’ve also been surprised that there hasn’t been more public outrage directed at China. I don’t presume to know all the details, but sure seems like they could have done better.
It goes to show you we are all so gaslit in the country with our respective echo chamber click bait media, that we attack one another for a virus that emanated from some disgusting wet market in China. What happens if another virus comes out of China in the next decade? That should be the focus rather than attacking one another over this virus. Hell what if the next one has a mortality rate of 20% vs. 3% or whatever this one is.
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Quote from gasmasspsoas
Thank you for the links. The first paper states: “An important variable that this and other studies have not been able to adequately incorporate into this analysis is the effect of comorbidities on life expectancy of COVID-19 deaths which is due to a lack of appropriate statistical information. This must, therefore, be considered a potential source of error.”
Not using comorbidities as part of the analysis automatically disqualifies the paper as meaningful. The other two papers linked did not provide details for their methods.
As I stated above, there are many papers and the range has been 9-13 years of life lost per death.
The papers on the 9-10 year end of the spectrum are adjusting more aggressively for co-morbidities and those on the 12-13 year end of the spectrum did not (and discussed it as a limitation).
It clearly seems reasonable to decrease the number by X percent, as people dying of COVID on the whole have more co-morbidities than average. The value of X is debatable, but no one seems to think the answer is anything significantly less than 9 years, even accounting for co-morbidities.
Also, since you said it was clear the excess deaths were 300k, the CDC currently estimates 420k excess deaths since February compared to an “average year”.
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Excellent points!
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These papers simply do not pass the sniff test, by virtue of basic math. The average age of death in the U.S.A. is 79. The CDC website breaks down COVID deaths by age category in 10 year increments. We can use the mathematical technique of weighted averages to calculate the average age of death for a Covid patient. We can take the middle number in each age category, and use the 85 for the 85+ category. This will actually underestimate the average age of death for Covid patients, as for example more 55 year olds than 45 year olds have died from Covid, but we are treating that category as the number “50”. Using weighted averages based on percent deaths in each age category, I calculate that the average “weighted” age of death for a Covid patient is around 74. That would give us a number of 5 years (79-74). I could do an even more accurate analysis if I had the exact age of each Covid patient who died, and this would likely move that number a few years closer to 79. Additionally this does not account into the patient’s comorbidites. The average expected age of death for patient’s with more comorbidities is lower. IE if you take the average number of Comorbidities for Covid death patients and compare to average for U.S.A. This group of people may for example have an average age of death of 77 or 76 WITHOUT Covid. This means that the average years of life lost per patient when compared to the average age of death in the U.S.A. is definitely less than 5, and possibly much less than 5!
Edited for typos. -
Higher and higher atop Mt. Stupid we climb.
[link]https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html[/link]
You can’t use overall life expectancy to determine how many years of life someone is expected to live.
You have to account for the fact that an older person has already made it to their current age and hasn’t died from something else already.
A 60 year old male is expected is live 22 more years, on average.
A 60 year old female is expected is live 25 more years, on average.
A 70 year old male is expected is live 14 more years, on average.
A 70 year old female is expected is live 16 more years, on average.
An 80 year old male is expected is live 8 more years, on average.
An 80 year old female is expected is live 10 more years, on average.
If you would like to dig into the numbers and re-do the work of many other people who know what they are talking about, go ahead. But you are wasting your time since it’s clear you have no knowledge in this space. -
Additionally, interesting to note working age adults have contributed to almost half of the years of life lost (YLL) after the spring wave.
Obviously a COVID death in someone 40 or 50 is significantly less common than a COVID death in someone 70 or 80. But this has been balanced out by the YLL of each of those deaths and overall it’s pretty close to an even split for the overall “toll”.
[link=https://healthcostinstitute.org/hcci-research/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-years-of-life-lost]https://healthcostinstitu…-on-years-of-life-lost[/link]
[b]Over the course of the pandemic, we found age and sex contributions to excess YLL have shifted. [/b]
[b]Deaths among adults 65 and older accounted for 80% of excess YLL in April but only 36% of excess YLL in June. [/b]
[b]Since April, working age adults 20-64 have accounted for 47% of excess YLL, and males 20 to 64 have contributed 34%.[/b] -
Mount Stupid material for sure.
Even taking comorbidities into account, covid is causing a tremendous loss of quality adjusted life years. A 65 year old diabetic or RA patient wasnt going to keel over tomorrow from their chronic condition.
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I dont agree with everything Dr. Atlas has said, but I definitely dont like how he has totally been crucified for his opinions when so much about this virus is unknown.
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Quote from Picasso01
I dont agree with everything Dr. Atlas has said, but I definitely dont like how he has totally been crucified for his opinions when so much about this virus is unknown.
This was not an issue of him expressing an opinion. This was an issue of him shaping public policy and getting in the way of those who do know what they are talking about. Things abour this virus are only ‘unknown’ if you make Parler the source of your scientific information.
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Quote from Picasso01
I dont agree with everything Dr. Atlas has said, but I definitely dont like how he has totally been crucified for his opinions when so much about this virus is unknown.
We dont know everything about COVID of course, but we know a lot. Atlas’ opinions were pure political propaganda, a twisted pseudoscience view of reality, divorced from all rational advice and all of the experts in this space.
His opinions in March were comically wrong and he doubled down at every occasion. He is now rightfully shunned from all of the medical and scientific world, an embarrassment and cautionary tale for the rest of his life.
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Quote from MVendrell
The facts are now clear and the multiplication elementary. This is not a matter of opinion. The extent to which any single individual is responsible cannot be determined. But that Dr. Atlas advice was stupid and mean and cavalier is incontrovertible. That he has damaged the reputation of Radiology is also without any question in my mind. Im angry and justifiably so that so many Americans have died and the economy has been so damaged by things that were avoidable such as not wearing masks and using strict SHORT-TERM shutdowns such as Germany and Australia used. I would agree that rolling long term slow-downs and not enough mask-wearing across the USA have been insane on both health and economic levels. A lot of people – not all of them old and infirm / have died who didnt need to and we still have a deeply damaged economy.
To become a radiologist is to sink into obscurity. Our reputation in the public eye will be unchanged after this all blows over.
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