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Kiev protest
wow
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138 Replies
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post Olympics…things are heating up
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Where are all those demo-crites on those one? Ashamed of your esteemed leader? Can you believe that this loser was on the campaign trail (5 o’clock “happy hour”) while Putin was moving troops? Where is McCain and Romney when we need them? Well you libs got him, enjoy!!!
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I am quite satisfied with the asminstration’s measures response thus far. The last thing we need is the narrative in Ukraine becoming one of US imperialist efforts to steal the Ukraine from Russia. Instead , let the EU take the lead. The Ukrainians want to be a part of Europe.
The current approach allows the narrative to be about the Ukrainian people looking westward and Putin being the agressor .Russia will be the clear party in the wrong here. Short of blasting in with our own military on enormous force we have not much better option. The long play of diplomacy is the best move.
On the Middle East and now on the Ukraine Obama looks smart like Eisenhower refusing to commit forces into conflicts without a clear path to victory and horrible complexities on the ground.
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Quote from dergon
I am quite satisfied with the asminstration’s measures response thus far. The last thing we need is the narrative in Ukraine becoming one of US imperialist efforts to steal the Ukraine from Russia. Instead , let the EU take the lead. The Ukrainians want to be a part of Europe.
The current approach allows the narrative to be about the Ukrainian people looking westward and Putin being the agressor .Russia will be the clear party in the wrong here. Short of blasting in with our own military on enormous force we have not much better option. The long play of diplomacy is the best move.
On the Middle East and now on the Ukraine Obama looks smart like Eisenhower refusing to commit forces into conflicts without a clear path to victory and horrible complexities on the ground.
Who gave you those lib talking points? Are you a Jay Carney surrogate? Putin knows the obummer is weak and it is now too late to do anything. The European Union? Are you serious? Yeah. lets do some diplomacy while the Ukraine goes back into the Soviet fold.
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I really hope he does not think Obama is weak given our drone track record… Putin needs to tone the macho complex thing down and think because he lost ground to have to stand down during the Olympics…he has no idea what may have been set up during those 14 days and still has to worry about terrorist attacks which can occur anywhere in his country
so now he has 2 unemployed white males with him(Snowden/ ex ukrain pres)Quote from Point Man
Quote from dergon
I am quite satisfied with the asminstration’s measures response thus far. The last thing we need is the narrative in Ukraine becoming one of US imperialist efforts to steal the Ukraine from Russia. Instead , let the EU take the lead. The Ukrainians want to be a part of Europe.
The current approach allows the narrative to be about the Ukrainian people looking westward and Putin being the agressor .Russia will be the clear party in the wrong here. Short of blasting in with our own military on enormous force we have not much better option. The long play of diplomacy is the best move.
On the Middle East and now on the Ukraine Obama looks smart like Eisenhower refusing to commit forces into conflicts without a clear path to victory and horrible complexities on the ground.
Who gave you those lib talking points? Are you a Jay Carney surrogate? Putin knows the obummer is weak and it is now too late to do anything. The European Union? Are you serious? Yeah. lets do some diplomacy while the Ukraine goes back into the Soviet fold.
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I really hope he does not think Obama is weak given our drone track record… Putin needs to tone the macho complex thing down and think because he lost ground to have to stand down during the Olympics…he has no idea what may have been set up during those 14 days and still has to worry about terrorist attacks which can occur anywhere in his country
so now he has 2 unemployed white males with him(Snowden/ ex ukrain pres)Quote from Point Man
Quote from dergon
I am quite satisfied with the asminstration’s measures response thus far. The last thing we need is the narrative in Ukraine becoming one of US imperialist efforts to steal the Ukraine from Russia. Instead , let the EU take the lead. The Ukrainians want to be a part of Europe.
The current approach allows the narrative to be about the Ukrainian people looking westward and Putin being the agressor .Russia will be the clear party in the wrong here. Short of blasting in with our own military on enormous force we have not much better option. The long play of diplomacy is the best move.
On the Middle East and now on the Ukraine Obama looks smart like Eisenhower refusing to commit forces into conflicts without a clear path to victory and horrible complexities on the ground.
Who gave you those lib talking points? Are you a Jay Carney surrogate? Putin knows the obummer is weak and it is now too late to do anything. The European Union? Are you serious? Yeah. lets do some diplomacy while the Ukraine goes back into the Soviet fold.
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Didn’t Sarah Palin predict that Russia would invade the Ukraine in 2008 after Obama’s weak response to Putin’s Georgia invasion? The libs ridiculed her prediction. Maybe she really could see Russia from her house! Women can spot weakness in a man. She had Obummer’s number right from the beginning.
Didn’t Romney prophetically note during the 2012 campaign that Russia was our number one geopolitical foe? Wasn’t Romney then immediately attacked and accused of being an out of touch cold war warrior?
[link=http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/03/so-when-will-barack-obama-be-apologizing-to-mitt-romney.php]http://www.powerlineblog….ing-to-mitt-romney.php[/link]
Putin knows that Obama is no Churchill. While Obama and Hagel are busy dismantling our military, Putin runs rampant rebuilding the Soviet Empire. Weakness begets war.
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aldi, I believe I remember seeing Bush while in office at the winter Olympics during the Georgia mess….this time TEAM USA got Putin tied down for the Olympics …smart move/karma Putin because all his resources had to be focused on nothing happening during those game…that’s was 14 days o get Ukraine ex-pres out of office and the 15 bill on ice
Quote from aldadoc
Didn’t Sarah Palin predict That Russia would invade the Ukraine in 2008 after Obama’s weak response to Putin’s Georgia invasion? The libs ridiculed her prediction.
Maybe she really could see Russia from her house! Women can spot weakness in a man. She had Obummer’s number right from the beginning.-
a civil war may make the Russian people turn on Putin..so he has to be careful on just roll the dice policy for macho sake
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I am sure Bush was looking at Putin stuck at the Olympics while Kiev was ousting that 15 bill leader and saying yeah buddy Karma is a b
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Obama is going to use his phone and his pen to stop the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Im sure Putin is shaking in his boots. Heh!
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Considering the Crimeans want to stay with Russia and invited the Russian Army in, it is hardly an invasion. Let the EU, Russia and Ukraine sort this one out. This is much more complex than Cold War dogma.
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Quote from Thor
Considering the Crimeans want to stay with Russia and invited the Russian Army in, it is hardly an invasion. Let the EU, Russia and Ukraine sort this one out. This is much more complex than Cold War dogma.
I wonder why a “prowestern” opposition leader Vitaly Klitchko cannot be the new president of Ukraine. He actually made a living by working and not by being on a u.s. payroll. At the start of the riots he said that he felt sorry for the 18yo cops who had to stand there and watch the country deteriorate instead of living in a country where you can just do your job. There was also a video where he personally told a thug “protester” to go home and to stop harassing the police. EU/USA is fine with violent takeover of the govt as long as it’s their “bitch”. Now that default is inevitable it no longer matters who is the next president of Ukraine.
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so much for Russian oil..spring is coming
Quote from buba
Quote from Thor
Considering the Crimeans want to stay with Russia and invited the Russian Army in, it is hardly an invasion. Let the EU, Russia and Ukraine sort this one out. This is much more complex than Cold War dogma.
I wonder why a “prowestern” opposition leader Vitaly Klitchko cannot be the new president of Ukraine. He actually made a living by working and not by being on a u.s. payroll. At the start of the riots he said that he felt sorry for the 18yo cops who had to stand there and watch the country deteriorate instead of living in a country where you can just do your job. There was also a video where he personally told a thug “protester” to go home and to stop harassing the police. EU/USA is fine with violent takeover of the govt as long as it’s their “****”. Now that default is inevitable it no longer matters who is the next president of Ukraine.
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does Putin want a default and have to pay for fighting as well…when do his people start to protest…no good option here for him
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But please quit pretending to be so stupid as if you support “protests”=riots, “rebels”=terrorists, “pro-west human rights activitists”=politicians/businessmen on a u.s. payroll- for some noble reasons. All those movements do is make countries like Ukraine, Russia, Syria, Africa weak and imperial powers like USA strong. People who work or eat at mcdonalds really do believe in “American Democracy”.
This is a very cynical and not necessarily accurate take. The Ukraine has had healthy grass roots pro-democratic reform movement for over 20 years now. These are people who truly simply want to see the rule of law applied broadly and fairly and who don’t want to live in a capricious autocratic kleptocracy.
As we’ve seen ply out in the world, the transition toward democracy and pro-western values can be challenging. Not all revolutions are led by the good guys and not all end up with the good guys on top.
But there are examples in which that process plays out well. I would put the Ukraine, a large country on the edge of Europe with the potential for a self-sustaining economy and with a prior history of democratic institutions as one that would be in the “more likely to end up as a true democracy after revolution” than some other nations that have seen recent tumult. I would say the Ukraine would have the best chance of looking like the other eastern block democracies post-overthrow of satellite governments….. like Poland, the Czech Republic, or Romania, than the examples you cite above.
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The problem is and will remain that early elections were brokerd by the more responsible opposition and followed instead by a coup by the more radical elements. Western Ukraine needs Eastern Ukraine more than the opposite. By violating an accepted compromise, the rebel leaders invited Russia to get involved on behalf of those who identify with Russia. Yukavenovich is no prince, but was elected in what was characterized as a free and fair election and to think the far right nationalists who wrest control will be any better is foolish.
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Oh I agree – It’s not like you can consider the fact that ultra-nationalists have usurped a democratic populist protest movement can be a good thing.
But it seems that the implication posted above had been that there had been no true democratic movements and that it was all somehow orchestrated by outside powers. That is the point I was trying to argue against.
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Quote from dergon
I am quite satisfied with the asminstration’s measures response thus far. The last thing we need is the narrative in Ukraine becoming one of US imperialist efforts to steal the Ukraine from Russia. Instead , let the EU take the lead. The Ukrainians want to be a part of Europe.
This entire discussion is very ignorant and self-centered. If those rioters did anything 1/100th as bad on wall street, you wouldn’t expect EU or Russia to ask Obama to resign, instead NYPD would use tear gas and cripple and jail thousands and give themselves a medal (in Washington that would happen before a crowd this large even had time to gather). The reason that the cops in Ukraine did not stop these riots is because Ukraine is a poor, weak country influenced by outside bullies such as EU and USA. And also because the Ukrainian cops did not want to look like they were protecting Yanukovych by bringing order, unlike American cops who dislike Obama but would be happy to engage any sort of riots. Of course Yanykovich also ordered the cops not to engage, because again he is a weak former thug, not “the leader of the free world”.
But the result of all this is obvious. Unemployed/marginal people prevented normal people from working. Ukraine is going into default and there is redistribution of wealth inside Ukraine. Those who rioted wanted “aid” from Europe/usa. So now that Ukraine defaults, foreigners will be able to buy factories and real estate at a great discount and give handouts to those uneducated people, and to select newspapers. Just like in Africa or other banana republics. Europe/uSA has no need for a rich Ukraine. It’s much better to have a banana republic, especially considering that ukrainians do behave like primitive peoples and expect handouts instead of working. After this “revolution” all those Ukrainian girls that encouraged the riots will be travelling abroad on their “vacation”. They don’t need Crimea, when they are more in demand in countries like Turkey,Poland, UAE. And Russia suffers from the same problem as Ukraine, it is weak and has a lot of stupid people that don’t want to work. Now that Ukraine defaults, oil will drop and Russia will really suffer. They will blame it on those western ukrainians that “wish that muslim freedom fighters commit more attacks in Russia”, but none of this would’ve happened if they weren’t so corrupt and weak.
But please quit pretending to be so stupid as if you support “protests”=riots, “rebels”=terrorists, “pro-west human rights activitists”=politicians/businessmen on a u.s. payroll- for some noble reasons. All those movements do is make countries like Ukraine, Russia, Syria, Africa weak and imperial powers like USA strong. People who work or eat at mcdonalds really do believe in “American Democracy”.
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Was listening to Fareed’s take this morning on what a strategic disaster the Crimea/ Ukraine situation is for Putin.
Washington can not stop Vladimir Putin as he creates facts on the ground in Crimea. But step back and consider what a strategic disaster this is for him.
Ukraine has slipped out of Russia’s orbit. Most of the population there is going to be hostile toward Russia for generations.
Countries like Poland that had eased up relations with Moscow will now view it great suspicion. All European countries will put their relations with Russia under review. Even China will surely oppose the brazen brazen violation of national sovereignty, something Beijing always voices concern about.
Within Russia people have now seen that Putin is terrified of a democracy movement and will brutally oppose it… Not the image he wants to present.
Putin gets Crimea, which by the way in only 60% Russian. Parts of it will be hostile to this Russian takeover , including the population of Crimean Tartars who are Muslim and getting radicalized. Remember, Crimea is in the northern Caucasus where Russia has been battling a ferocious Muslim insurgency.
So even as he lines up one more piece, or half piece, on his chess board Vladimir Putin will find that the price he has paid for it is quite high.-
The saddest part is the majority of Ukranians are caught between corrupt ultra-nationalists and corrupt Russian puppets. There was at least the chance with the brokered solution, but now that is gone. A good case can be made simply to split the country; but that would leave Western Ukraine an economic nightmare which I doubt Europe is excited to clean up.
In some ways there are parallels to Egypt-
[link=http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/03/wee-prediction-about-ukraine]http://m.motherjones.com/…ediction-about-ukraine[/link]
[b]Here’s What Is Going To Happen With Ukraine[/b][/h2]
[ol][*]Vladimir Putin will do something belligerent. (Already done.)[*]Republicans will demand that we show strength in the face of Putin’s provocation. Whatever it is that we’re doing, we should do more.[*]President Obama will denounce whatever it is that Putin does. But regardless of how unequivocal his condemnation is, Bill Kristol will insist that he’s failing to support the democratic aspirations of the Ukrainian people.[*]Journalists will write a variety of thumbsuckers pointing out that our options are extremely limited, what with Ukraine being 5,000 miles away and all.[*]John McCain will appear on a bunch of Sunday chat shows to bemoan the fact that Obama is weak and no one fears America anymore.[*]Having written all the “options are limited” thumbsuckers, journalists and columnists will follow McCain’s lead and start declaring that the crisis in Ukraine is the greatest foreign policy test of Obama’s presidency. It will thus supplant Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Iran, and North Korea for this honor.[*]In spite of all the trees felled and words spoken about this, nobody will have any good ideas about what kind of action might actually make a difference. There will be scattered calls to impose a few sanctions here and there, introduce a ban on Russian vodka imports, convene NATO, demand a UN Security Council vote, etc. None of this will have any material effect.[*]Obama will continue to denounce Putin. Perhaps he will convene NATO. For their part, Republicans will continue to insist that he’s showing weakness and needs to get serious.[*]This will all continue for a while.[*]In the end, it will all settle down into a stalemate, with Russia having thrown its weight around in its near abroadjust like it always hasand the West not having the leverage to do much about it.[*]Ukraine will…. [/ol][ol] [/ol]
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At this point there is not much we can or should do militarily. Our best bet at preventing this would have been from a position of strength and resolve. Since we have abdicated this role in the world, the next best way to combat Russian expansionism is through economic means.
The Russian (Soviet) economy is almost entirely dependent on oil and gas prices. What we should do is to unleash an energy glut. That means loosening up on fracking in the US, approve the Keystone pipeline, drill in Alaska, counter Europe’s dependence on Russian natural gas by expanding delivery mechanism for US liquified natural gas. Drive the price of gas into the ground, then sit back and wait for Russia to self implode under the debt of supporting prolonged occupations and military interventions.-
I’m not sure why you’re complaining about the USA in this mess. Has Ukraine or Europe asked the US for help? Is this a threat to the USA in any way? What would you have had the USA do to “prevent” this from happening in the first place?
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Russia spent how many bill for the games/ then 15 bill for a guy IMHO who was selling his country out/ spring is coming..have to worry about terrorist attacks… yes Mr. Putin needs to think..Georgia karma comeback
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Quote from Lux
I’m not sure why you’re complaining about the USA in this mess. Has Ukraine or Europe asked the US for help? Is this a threat to the USA in any way? What would you have had the USA do to “prevent” this from happening in the first place?
Well, soapy, the obummer has drawn another line. That is one thin line since all his other lines in the sand were washed out with the tide. But we still have the obummers “there will be costs” mantra.
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Quote from Point Man
Quote from Lux
I’m not sure why you’re complaining about the USA in this mess. Has Ukraine or Europe asked the US for help? Is this a threat to the USA in any way? What would you have had the USA do to “prevent” this from happening in the first place?
Well, soapy, the obummer has drawn another line. That is one thin line since all his other lines in the sand were washed out with the tide. But we still have the obummers “there will be costs” mantra.
OF COURSE there WILL be costs. What do you think is going to happen? Or do you assume that “costs” always need to be associated with immediate military threats? Reagan’s strategy was simply to drain Russia’s treasury which he did by causing an arms race. It worked, and today Russia’s already broke, so there’s nothing more Reagan would have done today either. Or are you one of those PNAC lunatics who insist that Reagan’s strategy was primarily military dominance?
Don’t you think these two countries have been talking non-stop over the red phone since the Olympics? Or have you been fooled into thinking that everything that’s going on is what we hear through Faux Noise?!
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Why exactly must we involve ourselves in everyone else’s mess
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You have an economic advantage if every country has giant malls with mcdonalds, walmart,etc. If kids buy rap cd’s and drugs and American clothing. Nevermind that Ukraine has all that anyway. But it also helps if the country is dirt poor and you can install your shoe factories and state that you help them out by “creating jobs”. Also you can buy up all the banks and give them loans. Occasionally you throw a bone by giving out “Soros Fund scholarship” to legitimate scholars, of course that has nothing to do with your takeover. And how about those newspapers? The 1st day that “prodemocracy” movement violently took office, they forbade all the “prorussian tv stations” and they kicked out 50% of the democratically elected officials. So now it’s impossible even to do a revote. They already got the idea that if they don’t like the results of an election, they can just riot. Doesn’t matter that their new president represents <20% of the population. They replaced the commander of the navy by their Western Ukrainian, and the next day he stated that he doesn’t recognize their govt, what say you?
Now that crimea responded by secession, somehow Russia is the aggressor. USA/EU threatened and fulfilled its promise to bring down Ukrainian/Russian economy. But it would’ve really made USA look more “democratic” compared to uncivilized colonies if there was actually a civil war. But that’s unlikely to happen, it’s not Egypt, ukrainians and Russians have nothing against each other.
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Put two plus two together and this was predictable. Let’s look at the facts: Putin called the breakup of the Soviet Union the greatest geopolitical disaster of the century. Putin is a Russian nationalist and has been very aggressive in expanding Russia’s influence on the world stage. Crimea was taken from Russia by the Allies after the Russians were defeated in the Crimean war. It is heavily Russian with 60% of the people being Russian ethnics.
For a number of reasons, the US has abdicated its leadership role in the world. We have a president who prefers to lead from behind, a secretary of defense who’s a moron, and a Secretary of State who feels that global warming is the greatest threat we face in the world. Our economy continues to struggle as we tax and regulate our industries and corporations into the ground. We are war wary nation. Right or wrong, we have chosen to support the entitlement state at the expense of military prowess. Obama and Hagel are systematically dismantling US military. We have created a power vacuum.
When you take all of these factors into account, Putin’s actions seem almost predictable. You can make the case that there were things we could have done to prevent this, like bringing Ukraine into NATO, or an EU economic bailout of Ukraine. Obama weakness certainly didn’t help. Who knows if anything would have changed. We are where we are. The thing to do now is to prevent this from turning into a military conflict and to make sure that this costs Russia a lot of money. Europe needs to be made energy independent from Russia. The technology exists to accomplish this. What is missing is the focus, the vision and the willingness to drop the climate change stupidity.
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Quote from aldadoc
Put two plus two together and this was predictable. Let’s look at the facts: Putin called the breakup of the Soviet Union the greatest geopolitical disaster of the century. Putin is a Russian nationalist and has been very aggressive in expanding Russia’s influence on the world stage. Crimea was taken from Russia by the Allies after the Russians were defeated in the Crimean war. It is heavily Russian with 60% of the people being Russian ethnics.
For a number of reasons, the US has abdicated its leadership role in the world. We have a president who prefers to lead from behind, a secretary of defense who’s a moron, and a Secretary of State who feels that global warming is the greatest threat we face in the world. Our economy continues to struggle as we tax and regulate our industries and corporations into the ground. We are war wary nation. Right or wrong, we have chosen to support the entitlement state at the expense of military prowess. Obama and Hagel are systematically dismantling US military. We have created a power vacuum.
When you take all of these factors into account, Putin’s actions seem almost predictable. You can make the case that there were things we could have done to prevent this, like bringing Ukraine into NATO, or an EU economic bailout of Ukraine. Obama weakness certainly didn’t help. Who knows if anything would have changed. We are where we are. The thing to do now is to prevent this from turning into a military conflict and to make sure that this costs Russia a lot of money. Europe needs to be made energy independent from Russia. The technology exists to accomplish this. What is missing is the focus, the vision and the willingness to drop the climate change stupidity.
This is such an ignorant and chauvinistic misinterpretation of history. Crimea was never taken from Russia in 19th century, and do you even know why Crimea was attacked by “allies” in 1850? Crimea was taken from USSR by Nazi Germany after 2years of battle. Putin is much more liberal than the policeman of the world. Crimea is 90% Slavs who are politically and culturally the same. The only other entity is muslim turks and they were already deported from Crimea in ww2 for cooperating with Nazis.
Indeed the breakup of USSR was a disaster. It led to numerous war conflicts and social ills for all of Eastern Europe. It was a boost for U.S./European economy. These are just the facts.
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Quote from Lux
What would you have had the USA do to “prevent” this from happening in the first place?
The theory put forth, predictably, by the right essentially boils down to “If Obama wasn’t such a p*ssy Putin would never had done it. If Reagan was president Vladimir would have been too cowed with fear to move on Crimea”
That theory is horsesh*t.
There is really nothing that the US can do about this one, regardless of who is the President. The West is not about to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine. Russia has and will continue to act in pretty much whatever way it wants within its near sphere of influence. The Russian navy is there and the Crimea is hugely strategically important to the Russians. Ukraine is of much greater importance to the Russians than it is to the US and even Europe.
The “consequences” Obama mentioned are going to be political/ diplomatic. He probably made another mistake by talking tough (although at least this time measurably [i]less[/i] tough than on Syria at least). Obama has acted like a foreign policy realist most of his time in office. I just wish his words would match for politics sake. But it’s Obama’s rhetoric that has driven Putin to action. He would have acted regardless. He wants it a lot more than we do.
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So who is this Fareed? The only Fareed that I ever met was an old homosexual who tried to solicit me outside a bar in college. Iranian from San Francisco? Crimea is as much Northern Caucus as Colorado is Northern Appalachians. Muslim tartars can move to north caucus or even south caucus if they don’t like it. They never liked Russians or ukrainians anyway. That’s why they were deported in 1940’s, and then they were allowed to come back in 1990 because of human rights. Since then, just like chechens, they have not been very grateful, to say the least.
Quote from dergon
Was listening to Fareed’s take this morning on what a strategic disaster the Crimea/ Ukraine situation is for Putin.
Washington can not stop Vladimir Putin as he creates facts on the ground in Crimea. But step back and consider what a strategic disaster this is for him.
Ukraine has slipped out of Russia’s orbit. Most of the population there is going to be hostile toward Russia for generations.
Countries like Poland that had eased up relations with Moscow will now view it great suspicion. All European countries will put their relations with Russia under review. Even China will surely oppose the brazen brazen violation of national sovereignty, something Beijing always voices concern about.
Within Russia people have now seen that Putin is terrified of a democracy movement and will brutally oppose it… Not the image he wants to present.
Putin gets Crimea, which by the way in only 60% Russian. Parts of it will be hostile to this Russian takeover , including the population of Crimean Tartars who are Muslim and getting radicalized. Remember, Crimea is in the northern Caucasus where Russia has been battling a ferocious Muslim insurgency.
So even as he lines up one more piece, or half piece, on his chess board Vladimir Putin will find that the price he has paid for it is quite high.
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Quote from buba
So who is this Fareed? The only Fareed that I ever met was an old homosexual who tried to solicit me outside a bar in college.
Uhhh… “this Fareed” is Fareed Zakharia. But I applaud you on your ability to get in a nice homophobic slur at the same time that you asked the question. I find it strange to think that a person with some supposed educated opinion on US foreign policy would not instantly take the mention of his first name and draw an association… kind of like using “Rush” for Rush Limbaugh but … maybe you get your news elsewhere.
He was the editor of Foreign Affairs magazine for a decade, directed foreign policy research projects at Harvard and is the author of numerous books focusing on the United States, global democracy, and the place of the US within a changing world.
“Fareed’s Take” is a regular commentary segment that he does on his nationally broadcast weekly show “Global Public Square” on CNN that focuses on global issues and geopolitics.
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I am sure if he is so well known, he must be well educated in the fields of history, politics, geography,etc. But evidently he just does not care to present any accurate info at all. He calls Crimea Northern Caucus twice, it’s not a typo. I guess to some people it’s the same as the debate over freedom fries or French fries. They just want to hear: usa=good, Russia=evil. Nothing original in what he said whatsoever. I do not listen to such shows, because I do not want to be indoctrinated into senseless propaganda. When I want to learn about a foreign country, I go abroad and talk to a local bartender.
Quote from dergon
Quote from buba
So who is this Fareed? The only Fareed that I ever met was an old homosexual who tried to solicit me outside a bar in college.
Uhhh… “this Fareed” is Fareed Zakharia. But I applaud you on your ability to get in a nice homophobic slur at the same time that you asked the question. I find it strange to think that a person with some supposed educated opinion on US foreign policy would not instantly take the mention of his first name and draw an association… kind of like using “Rush” for Rush Limbaugh but … maybe you get your news elsewhere.
He was the editor of Foreign Affairs magazine for a decade, directed foreign policy research projects at Harvard and is the author of numerous books focusing on the United States, global democracy, and the place of the US within a changing world.
“Fareed’s Take” is a regular commentary segment that he does on his nationally broadcast weekly show “Global Public Square” on CNN that focuses on global issues and geopolitics.
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It is true thar Russia maintained control of Crimea after they lost the Crimean war to England, France, Austria and Turkey. It is also true that Kruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine as a “gift”. It is also true that Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s borders in a treaty in which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.
Indian giver, I guess.
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and he still has to provide a special protection for the special Olympics… Mr. Putin…time to be smart/not macho..the glow of SOCHI is is flickering
Quote from aldadoc
It is true thar Russia maintained control of Crimea after they lost the Crimean war to England, France, Austria and Turkey. It is also true that Kruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine as a “gift”. It is also true that Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s borders in a treaty in which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.
Indian giver, I guess.
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it was given as a gift. An agreement was made so that Ukraine would give up their Nuclear weapons. Putin’s action will affect whether any country in the future will give up there weapons now because what if he should invade their country
quick tight banking sanctions may lead Putin to rethink the prior agreement he madeQuote from aldadoc
It is true thar Russia maintained control of Crimea after they lost the Crimean war to England, France, Austria and Turkey. It is also true that Kruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine as a “gift”. It is also true that Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s borders in a treaty in which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.
Indian giver, I guess.
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Quote from buba
When I want to learn about a foreign country, I go abroad and talk to a local bartender.
you must be well versed in foreign language or you must be visiting places that are well versed in English.-
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Quote from buba
When I want to learn about a foreign country, I go abroad and talk to a local bartender.
you must be well versed in foreign language or you must be visiting places that are well versed in English.
A.T.E.O.T.D. its all a mute point, Putin has kicked the obummer’s can and there is nothing we can do about it. Don’t give me those “economic sanction” pieces of waste, we won’t do anything to further antagonize Putin. All we can do is wait until 2016 when the obummer goes back to chicago and joins his buddies doing all that community organizin’. Until then all you libs can continue to live in your fantasy world of entitlements for everyone.
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Pointless I’m curious what you see as the big issue with this that requires planetary response to discipline Russia. Has the Ukraine requested help from the USA? Other than declaring it as an act of war what else is Ukraine suggesting as the remedy? What would you suggest we should have done had we threatened Russia and they called our bluff? Are you suggesting that Crimea is worth a “red line” that justifies putting anything and everything “on the table”? Or are you trying to simply justify keeping old technology war tanks in our defense budget? It’s hard to tell exactly what strategy you’re claiming should happen or should have happened.
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My older brother, a miltary historian by education, prior military intelligence officer, and current DEA intel wrote a nice little post about this topic on his FB page. He is a staunch conservative (he describes his own politics as “slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun”) and had voted for every Republican candidate since Reagan.
Quote from dergon’s older brother
Putin has been slowly expanding the influence and boundaries of the Russian Federation over the last 10 years. He has gauged Western resolve and determined it to be lacking. It’s not just an Obama thing, either, since Georgia was attacked under Bush’s watch in 2008.
Let’s face it, Russia wants Lebensraum (as Hitler would have said it), and is using the fact that there are “ethnic” Russians living in states bordering Russia as an excess to “protect” those “minorities.” I always found it strange that the western Democracies allowed Russia to join the G-8. Didn’t work well, did it? You simply can’t put a wolf in sheep’s clothing and expect that it will act like a sheep. That said, there really is not much the western Democracies can do other than saber rattle and, perhaps, kick Russia out of the G-8.I would encourage the western democracies to continue developing close ties to Poland and the other former Warsaw Pact countries. But these ties must be real and must be backed, as we did in Germany during the Cold War, by clear military exchanges. There may be a good time to reduce the American military, but this is still not it. Even if we are tired of our international commitments elsewhere in the world, the eastern European nations deserve to continue to develop as democracies, even with the threat of the Russian bear looking over their shoulder.
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At some point you need to just acknowleged that some countries, frankly, are throwbacks. Looking at it from the extreme, going to war with Russia over Crimea has a very poor therapeutic index.
Ukraine isn’t a member of NATO so the USA has no legal call to take an active interest. Other than cheap land and gorgeous women, the USA has found very little redeeming value in the vast majority of East Block acreage. Russia is using the excuse that 60% of Crimeans are of Russian descent and speak Russian. But Russia also has a huge military base there even though it also has it’s own Russian coastline to the Black Sea. Likewise, Ukraine has a huge coast on the Black Sea outside of Crimea.
Other than a vague reference to “Western resolve”, your older brother doesn’t suggest what could have been done to evade Russia’s actions, nor does he suggest what could be done to settle this situation currently, other than making friends with Poland “and other former Warsaw Pact countries”, but to what end?
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[b]”At some point you need to just acknowleged that some countries, frankly, are throwbacks. Looking at it from the extreme, going to war with Russia over Crimea has a very poor therapeutic index.” [/b]
Well soapy, then why was it so important for your esteemed leader to call that news conference to draw another useless line? The obummer actually must feel he is cute and photogenic, but I got a news flash for him….not only is he a weak milquetoast, but he also has big ugly bimbo-like ears.
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Quote from Point Man
[b]”At some point you need to just acknowleged that some countries, frankly, are throwbacks. Looking at it from the extreme, going to war with Russia over Crimea has a very poor therapeutic index.” [/b]
Well soapy, then why was it so important for your esteemed leader to call that news conference to draw another useless line? The obummer actually must feel he is cute and photogenic, but I got a news flash for him….not only is he a weak milquetoast, but he also has big ugly bimbo-like ears.
What exactly is the line that he’s drawn on the current situation? -
…Because Obama referred to “isolating” the Russian involvement, and so, of course, Pointless goes on his own magical mystery tour, compliments of Faux Noise, and conjures up all kinds of poppycock and doesn’t apply here.
More “what ifs” from the fearful paranoiacs.
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[link=http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-cliches-of-leadership-and-resolve/]http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-cliches-of-leadership-and-resolve/[/link]
Nothing short of war will satisfy Sir Pointless -
what if Ukraine had never given up their nucs ..but they did and Russia signed an agreement in 1994 so what up Russia …not bound to your word
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Quote from Thor
[link=http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-cliches-of-leadership-and-resolve/]http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-cliches-of-leadership-and-resolve/[/link]
Nothing short of war will satisfy Sir Pointless
I’m not familiar with Larison until now. And I like him!…
[link=http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/thank-goodness-mccain-isnt-president/]http://www.theamericancon…mccain-isnt-president/[/link] -
Lux, I think we have establish this fact long ago..the Susan Rice talk was the cherry on top
nevertheless we have Merkle saying Putin” whether Putin is still in touch with reality”/ is he living in another world
Ukraine has untapped oil and grain they can send elsewhere and oil pipes they can shut down and default , default default..Mr. Putin get back to reality and THINKQuote from Lux
Quote from Thor
[link=http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-cliches-of-leadership-and-resolve/]http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-cliches-of-leadership-and-resolve/[/link]
Nothing short of war will satisfy Sir Pointless
I’m not familiar with Larison until now. And I like him!…
[link=http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/thank-goodness-mccain-isnt-president/]http://www.theamericancon…mccain-isnt-president/[/link]
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What did we do when Putin invaded Georgia in 2008?
We should at least be as tough now as we were then. Dubbya set the example for Obama to follow. -
Your brpther might be correct in some ways, dergon, I’m sure Putin wants to re-unite the USSR, especially on the European side, but the question is what is the appropriate response. Troops? Difficult to fight for countries who can’t seem to get out of their own way with corruption and weak government on top of a weak military of their own.
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What gets me is you lib experts-on-everything (legends in your own minds) explaining how everything in the world should be. A great example of that is your own soapy, the poster boy of cut-and-paste. Cut-and-paste just doesn’t get it. How can you criticize Putin when the obummer is committing just as many injustices as Putin, just in a different venue? Look at Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, just to name a few. Not to mention his domestic disasters. But……he has a pen and a phone….sickening. Did I mention scary also?
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Quote from Frumious
Dubbya set the example for Obama to follow.
Unfortunately, Dubya also set the example for PUTIN to follow about how to get away with invading another country based on trumped up charges.
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Quote from dergon
My older brother, a miltary historian by education, prior military intelligence officer, and current DEA intel wrote a nice little post about this topic on his FB page. He is a staunch conservative (he describes his own politics as “slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun”) and had voted for every Republican candidate since Reagan.
Quote from dergon’s older brother
Putin has been slowly expanding the influence and boundaries of the Russian Federation over the last 10 years. He has gauged Western resolve and determined it to be lacking. It’s not just an Obama thing, either, since Georgia was attacked under Bush’s watch in 2008.
Let’s face it, Russia wants Lebensraum (as Hitler would have said it), and is using the fact that there are “ethnic” Russians living in states bordering Russia as an excess to “protect” those “minorities.” I always found it strange that the western Democracies allowed Russia to join the G-8. Didn’t work well, did it? You simply can’t put a wolf in sheep’s clothing and expect that it will act like a sheep. That said, there really is not much the western Democracies can do other than saber rattle and, perhaps, kick Russia out of the G-8.I would encourage the western democracies to continue developing close ties to Poland and the other former Warsaw Pact countries. But these ties must be real and must be backed, as we did in Germany during the Cold War, by clear military exchanges. There may be a good time to reduce the American military, but this is still not it. Even if we are tired of our international commitments elsewhere in the world, the eastern European nations deserve to continue to develop as democracies, even with the threat of the Russian bear looking over their shoulder.
Not a time to reduce the military. I’m not sure I’d agree. I think technology like drones means less boots on the ground. Future warfare might be more about who has the better robots/drones. I definitely don’t think we should be propping up these places either.-
If we are for democracy there is only one valid question (well two) What do the Crimeans want and what does Western Ukraine want. There is no good reason to turn this into a proxy war. Rather than telling the protestors to honor the brokered agreement for elections, a small faction has been allowed to usurp democratic change by coup. We can let this be Bosnia circa 1914 or we can resist the temptation to meddle in something that right now is none of our business
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For an opposing view…..
[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw[/link]
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I like Scott Taylor, he doesn’t mind calling a mess a mess. Warning…this a more of a Canadian spin…
[link=http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1190823-taylor-ukraine-stance-is-evidence-of-baird-s-unfortunate-consistency]http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1190823-taylor-ukraine-stance-is-evidence-of-baird-s-unfortunate-consistency[/link]
As events rapidly unfold in Ukraine, the western media have already descended into the role of cheerleader, rather than attempting to provide objective clarity on a very complex situation.
Canadas Foreign Minister John Baird has held high the banner of hypocrisy, by rushing to Kyiv with an official delegation to show solidarity with the self-appointed interim Ukrainian government.
Walking through the barricades of Independence Square, draped in the Ukrainian national colours, Baird placed flowers in memory of those killed in recent clashes with police. Using the same bluster he used to commit Canada to a pro-Israel Middle-East policy, Baird advised his attendant media pack that Canada is not a referee in the Ukrainian crisis.
We are clearly backing the anti-Viktor Yanukovych faction. Where the hypocrisy lies is in Bairds repeated warnings for Russia not to become involved in the internal politics of a sovereign state. Of course Baird threw around the usual buzzwords about Canada supporting freedom and democracy, implying that anyone in opposition to such noble aims must be anti-freedom and anti-democracy, which of course means plain old evil.
The media spin has quickly settled on this simplistic good-guy, bad-guy equation with the added Cold War throwback to fearing all things Russian. The fact is that the Ukraine situation is not as black and white as Baird would like it to be. It has long been a very divided nation.
Those living west of the Dnieper River have long sought to strengthen ties with the European Union, while those Ukrainians, including many ethnic Russians living east of the Dnieper, wish to keep their traditional link with Mother Russia.
In Crimea, the current flashpoint in the region, things get even more complicated when you factor in a large percentage of indigenous ethnic Tatars Turkic Muslims. On the strategic level, Sevastopol has been for centuries the major Russian naval base in the Black Sea.
In 1991, as Ukraine sought independence from the crumbling Soviet Union, the naval dockyard in Sevastopol was a major stumbling block. The compromise solution was for Russia to sign a long-term lease, similar to Britains former arrangement in Hong Kong.
Thus it seems even more ludicrous that Baird would fly 8,000 kilometres to announce his support for the anti-Yanukovych faction, while warning his Kremlin counterparts not to intervene on territory upon which they legitimately have military resources. The other major issue, which gets glossed over in all the medias anti-Russian rhetoric, is the fact that the majority of the public discontent stems from Ukraines collapsed economy.
Unemployment and underemployment especially among the youth is rampant. Were it not for the black market, most Ukrainians could not subsist.
Some analysts have estimated that it will require an infusion of at least $35 billion over the next two years just to stabilize the Ukrainian economy. That is not something that will be easily overcome by whatever form of government emerges following the current crisis.
Also glazed over in the rush to demonize the Yanukovych-Russia team is the fact there has been little mentioned about who constitutes the new authority. The factions, which Baird was so eager to embrace, are described by those in the western Ukraine enclaves as the fascists.
This of course is a simplistic categorization of their political enemies, which has its roots in the Second Word War. When Hitlers troops invaded the Soviet Union, Ukraine produced a large volume of willing volunteers, many driven by their anti-Semitic beliefs.
The 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, consisting of Ukrainian recruits, was considered one of the most ruthless perpetrators of persecution against Jews on the Eastern front. While it would be a leap of logic to compare the anti-Yanukovych faction to the Nazis, there are in their ranks, strident anti-Semites.
So once again we have an extremely complex conflict wherein our bombastic Foreign Affairs Minister commits Canada based on a ridiculously simplistic equation. When the rebellion started in Libya in 2011, Baird shouted Gadhafi must go and with the aid of a massive NATO air bombardment, he went.
In Gadhafis wake came a failed state rife with violent anarchy, which then spilled over into Mali and Syria. When the revolution began in Syria, Baird shouted, [President] Assad must go. That was until it became all too evident that Assad was battling al-Qaida and then Baird thankfully went mute.
Now Baird is walking the streets of Kiev in a yellow and blue scarf yelling Yanukovych must go.
At least he is consistent.-
Walshnuc, unfortunately both Canada and The USA are led by those with very little knowledge or experience in foreign affairs. Canada wants to spread the love and obama just wants to send the money….money we don’t have. All this administrations talk of economic sanctions is wasted oxygen. Economic sanctions will hurt us as much as it will hurt Russia. John McCain, Romney or even Sarah Palin could provide valuable input if only asked.
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Quote from Point Man
Walshnuc, unfortunately both Canada and The USA are led by those with very little knowledge or experience in foreign affairs. Canada wants to spread the love and obama just wants to send the money….money we don’t have. All this administrations talk of economic sanctions is wasted oxygen. Economic sanctions will hurt us as much as it will hurt Russia. John McCain, Romney or even Sarah Palin could provide valuable input if only asked.
Very funny. If I didn’t know better I’d say you were Steve Colbert in disguise with one of his sarcastic conservative rants.
I noticed that you’re staying away from my question to you here, [link=http://www.auntminnie.com/Forum/tm.aspx?high=&m=415987&mpage=2#417477]http://www.auntminnie.com…987&mpage=2#417477[/link]
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Quote from Point Man
John McCain, Romney or even Sarah Palin could provide valuable input if only asked.
So I liked Larison’s commentary for the McCain part of the equation:
John McCain [link=http://swampland.time.com/2014/02/28/ukraine-john-mccain-putin-crimea/]never tires[/link] of supporting useless and dangerous hard-line policies:
[blockquote] He wants to see Obama revive the Bush era missile defense plan, which would have placed U.S. missiles in the Czech Republic. He also believes that speeding up Georgia accession to NATO would send a strong message to Putin.
[/blockquote] Whatever else one wants to say about the current situation in Ukraine, these policy recommendations made no sense in the previous decade and they still make no sense today. As a matter of fact, no interceptors were supposed to be placed on Czech territory, but most Czechs [link=http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffrs/czech-government-battling-opposition-to-us-radar-base]didnt want[/link] the related [link=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6720153.stm]radar installation[/link] in their country. There was popular opposition to Bushs scheme in both Poland and the Czech Republic, and scrapping it was the right thing to do. Theres no reason at all to try to revive it five years later.
Bringing Georgia into NATO remains the obsession of a dwindling band of hard-liners, but it makes even less sense now than it did six years ago. At least in 2008, there was still the remote chance that Georgia would resolve its outstanding territorial disputes, but now that seems even more unlikely, and unless it can do that there is no chance that NATO would extend a security guarantee to it. Nothing could be worse for the alliance than to make security guarantees it cant or wont honor, and bringing Georgia into NATO does exactly that. These policy ideas are every bit as outdated and bankrupt as they were when McCain defended them as a presidential candidate, and it would be folly to pursue them once again.
Overall, McCains lack of awareness is truly impressive. There has been no one more active in pushing for U.S. military interventions around the world or more contemptuous of the protections of state sovereignty than he, and yet he reacts to these events as if they vindicate his reckless and aggressive foreign policy views.
And for Palin:
[link=http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/03/03/sarah-palin-was-right-about-ukraine/]http://www.forbes.com/sit…s-right-about-ukraine/[/link]
Foreign Policy Magazine (whom I also write for) was gracious enough to offer a sort of [link=http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/03/03/who_was_right_on_ukraine_sarah_palin_or_fp][i]mea culpa[/i][/link]. So we have to hand it to her: Six years after the publication of a 156-word blog post, points to Palin. Sort of.
The magazine then pointed out that given Palins lack of foreign affairs credentials, it was less likely that Palin astutely predicted Russia grabbing Crimea, and more likely that her comment came in the context of the GOPs 2008 narrative, which was the same as most Republican campaigns since World War II: Democrats are weak on national defense and that weakness will invite aggression, endangering us all.
Regardless of whether Palin had ESP or was just a broken clock that happened to tell the correct time, postulating that a forceful U.S. response to Russia during the brief [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_war]2008 Russia-Georgia War [/link]would have deterred Moscow from attacking Ukraine today, is as unlikely a scenario as imagining that [b]then-Senator[/b] Obama could have changed U.S. policy.
In 2008, the U.S. military was stretched like a rubber band, trying to fight simultaneous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. George W. Bushs White House, which could hardly be described as shy about using force, didnt have the resources for another conflict, and every U.S. President Republican or Democrat has trod very carefully in any situation that might put American troops in a shooting war with a nuclear-armed Russia. The Bush administration did ship humanitarian aid to Georgia, Western [link=http://www.forbes.com/europe-news/]Europe[/link]criticized Russia, and that was all. Jimmy Carter ordered the U.S. to boycott the 1980 Olympics over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and Russian troops stayed in that country another 10 years.
Perhaps the biggest lesson of the Russia-Georgia conflict was that it is dangerous for Russias smaller neighbors to think of joining NATO, as Georgia hoped to do, which Ukraine has [link=http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_37750.htm]flirted[/link] with, and which the three small Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have actually done. Regardless of what Senator Obama said in 2008 or President Obama did today, Russia would protect what it perceives as its vital interests.-
So Pointy wants no monetary aid; no sanctions and doing nothing apparently makes us weak. So what does that leave? Pointy care to hazard an actual opinion on what to do?
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[h1]Don’t listen to Obama’s Ukraine critics: he’s not ‘losing’ and it’s not his fight[/h1] [b]The do something pundits rear their heads. Just like they did on Iraq, Afghanistan and every other crisis of US credibility[/b]
[link=http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/03/obama-ukraine-russia-critics-credibility]http://www.theguardian.co…ia-critics-credibility[/link]
Im talking about the people who wont stop weighing in on Obamas lack of action in the Ukraine. Indeed, the sea of foreign policy punditry already shark-infested has reached new lows in fear-mongering, exaggerated doom-saying and a stunning inability to place global events in any rational historical context.
…..
Missing from this analysis about [i]how[/i] Obama should respond is [i]why[/i]Obama should respond. After all, the US has few strategic interests in the former Soviet Union and little ability to affect Russian decision-making.
Our interests lie in a stable Europe, and thats why the US and its European allies created a containment structure that will ensure Russias territorial ambitions will remain quite limited. (Its called Nato.) Even if the Russian military wasnt a hollow shell of the once formidable Red Army, its not about to mess with a Nato country.
The US concerns vis-à-vis Russia are the concerns that affect actual US interests. Concerns like nuclear non-proliferation, or containing the Syrian civil war, or stopping Irans nuclear ambitions. Those are all areas where Moscow has played an occasionally useful role.
What [i]is[/i] Americas problem is ensuring that Russia pays a price for violating international law and the global norm against inter-state war.[link=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/western-leaders-russia-advance-ukrainian-territory-kerry-kiev]The formal suspension of a G8 summit in Sochi[/link] is a good first step. If Putins recalcitrance grows and if he further escalates the crisis then that pressure can be ratcheted up.
But this crisis is Putins Waterloo, not ours.
Which brings us to perhaps the most bizarre element of watching the Crimean situation unfold through a US-centric lens: the iron-clad certainty of the pundit class that Putin is winning and Obama is losing. The exact opposite is true.
Putin has initiated a conflict that will, quite obviously, result in greater diplomatic and political isolation as well as the potential for economic sanction. Hes compounded his loss of a key ally in Kiev by further enflaming Ukrainian nationalism, and his provocations could have a cascading effect in Europe by pushing countries that rely on Russias natural gas exports to look elsewhere for their energy needs. Putin is the leader of a country with a weak military, an under-performing economy and a host of social, environmental and health-related challenges. Seizing the Crimea will only make the problems facing Russia that much greater.
…opinion pages and the Sunday shows and too many blog posts that could be informative have been filled with an over-the-top notion: that failure to respond to Russias action will weaken Americas credibility with its key allies. To which I would ask: where are they gonna go? If anything, Americas key European allies are likely to fold the quickest, because, you know, gas. And why would any US ally in the Far East want Obama wasting his time on the Crimea anyway?
[b]You dont have to listen to the do something crowd. These are the same people who brought you the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, among other greatest hits. These are armchair experts convinced that every international problem is a vital interest of the US; that the maintenance of credibility and strength is essential, and that any demonstration of weakness is a slippery slope to global anarchy and American obsolescence; and that being wrong and/or needlessly alarmist never loses one a seat at the table.
The funny thing is, these are often the same people who bemoan the lack of public support for a more muscular American foreign policy. Gee, I wonder why. [/b]
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Quote from Point Man
Walshnuc, unfortunately both Canada and The USA are led by those with very little knowledge or experience in foreign affairs. Canada wants to spread the love and obama just wants to send the money….money we don’t have. All this administrations talk of economic sanctions is wasted oxygen. Economic sanctions will hurt us as much as it will hurt Russia. John McCain, Romney or even Sarah Palin could provide valuable input if only asked.
I read an interesting viewpoint that if they released some of the strategic petroleum reserves they could lower oil prices by around $10 a barrel which would have something like $40 billion affect on Russia GDP which would be a 4 percent dip. That was on Gizmodo.com which is a tech site. Now it might also PO the OPEC people too. Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.-
Quote from DICOM_Dan
I read an interesting viewpoint that if they released some of the strategic petroleum reserves they could lower oil prices by around $10 a barrel which would have something like $40 billion affect on Russia GDP which would be a 4 percent dip.
That’s how we put the USSR out of business 27 years ago during Reagan’s term: The US built tens of thousands of nukes, and Russia used its huge oil revenue to build its own nukes in a desperate (some would say [i]macho) [/i]attempt to keep up with that “arms race”, but then we started releasing a bunch of our strategic reserves which caused the price of gas to plummet globally, and that vaporized Russia’s treasury, which STILL has not recovered.
Over the past 70 years, our greatest accomplishments overseas have been the result of our economic, not military, strategies. This concept is not well understood by the far right who still think the USSR dissolved simply because of our military superiority.
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[b]” Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.”[/b]
Bet you can’t see Russia from your house. Sarah can; therefore she is more of an expert on Russia that you. Soapy, now go insane as usual. This is humor soapy, like this current administration is also a joke. -
Quote from Point Man
[b]” Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.”[/b]
Bet you can’t see Russia from your house. Sarah can; therefore she is more of an expert on Russia that you. Soapy, now go insane as usual. This is humor soapy, like this current administration is also a joke.
You think you know so much about me, but you know nothing about me at all.
And if you have to explain that something you said was supposed to be funny, then you should assume it wasn’t really funny.
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Quote from Lux
Quote from Point Man
[b]” Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.”[/b]
Bet you can’t see Russia from your house. Sarah can; therefore she is more of an expert on Russia that you. Soapy, now go insane as usual. This is humor soapy, like this current administration is also a joke.
You think you know so much about me, but you know nothing about me at all.
And if you have to explain that something you said was supposed to be funny, then you should assume it wasn’t really funny.
That soapy is a well thought out retort!! Deep and thoughtful.
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Quote from Point Man
Quote from Lux
Quote from Point Man
[b]” Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.”[/b]
Bet you can’t see Russia from your house. Sarah can; therefore she is more of an expert on Russia that you. Soapy, now go insane as usual. This is humor soapy, like this current administration is also a joke.
You think you know so much about me, but you know nothing about me at all.
And if you have to explain that something you said was supposed to be funny, then you should assume it wasn’t really funny.
That soapy is a well thought out retort!! Deep and thoughtful.
I gave it as much thought as it deserved.
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Quote from Point Man
[b]” Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.”[/b]
Bet you can’t see Russia from your house. Sarah can; therefore she is more of an expert on Russia that you. Soapy, now go insane as usual. This is humor soapy, like this current administration is also a joke.
Point Man thus furthering my point. I’m not sure it’s humerous that you think she’s an Russia expert because she can see Alaska. Last I knew she lived in Wasilla which is north of Anchorage. According to google that’s a 3+ hour flight to the Bearing Straight. How exactly is she seeing Russia? -
She sees snow and cold and Eskimos…….and just assumes it’s Russia
Sarah is definitely not playing with a full head of brains
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Quote from Point Man
[b]” Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.”[/b]
Bet you can’t see Russia from your house. Sarah can; therefore she is more of an expert on Russia that you. Soapy, now go insane as usual. This is humor soapy, like this current administration is also a joke.
Point Man thus furthering my point. I’m not sure it’s humerous that you think she’s an Russia expert because she can see Alaska. Last I knew she lived in Wasilla which is north of Anchorage. According to google that’s a 3+ hour flight to the Bearing Straight. How exactly is she seeing Russia?
Those glasses not only make her beautiful, but are down right powerful. Not only can she see Russia from her home, but she saw through this failed administration a long time ago. Just looking at her makes my eyes happy. Go Sarah!! -
Could someone explain why the foreign policy of CNN/FOX/NYT/WSJ is identical? They fight over the slightest details when it comes to taxes or healthcare or homosexuas,etc but when Mccain or Kerry uses the words “revolution” and “democracy” synonymously or “freedom fighters” and “democrats” synonymously, there is absolutely no discussion. Even physicians just assume that Ukraine had a “totalitarian govt” which was magically replaced by “democrats”. Why is this piece of news not covered in the u.s. media:
[link=http://rt.com/news/estonia-confirm-leaked-tape-970/]http://rt.com/news/estonia-confirm-leaked-tape-970/[/link] -
Quote from Point Man
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Quote from Point Man
[b]” Sarah Palin? yes she’s a real foreign policy expert.”[/b]
Bet you can’t see Russia from your house. Sarah can; therefore she is more of an expert on Russia that you. Soapy, now go insane as usual. This is humor soapy, like this current administration is also a joke.
Point Man thus furthering my point. I’m not sure it’s humerous that you think she’s an Russia expert because she can see Alaska. Last I knew she lived in Wasilla which is north of Anchorage. According to google that’s a 3+ hour flight to the Bearing Straight. How exactly is she seeing Russia?
Those glasses not only make her beautiful, but are down right powerful. Not only can she see Russia from her home, but she saw through this failed administration a long time ago. Just looking at her makes my eyes happy. Go Sarah!!
Lol I can just imagine what your wife looks like if a typical middle aged plain looking “white” female is beautiful to you. What middle age? I bet she no longer menstruates.
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Palin’s an idiot – that is sure.
Perhaps someone gave her the line to say, but regardless, she DID predict this (stopped clock phenomonon?)
Palin:First, Sarah Palin. [link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/03/03/palin-on-ukraine-i-called-it/]In 2008, the Alaskan conservative warned that Putin was on the prowl[/link]. Quote: “After the Russian army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama’s reaction was one of moral indecision and equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia’s Putin to invade Ukraine next.”
Romney[link=http://www.ijreview.com/2014/03/118668-remember-obama-mocking-romney-foreign-policy-question-2012-campaign/]Romney confirmed the sceptics’ worst fears when he described Russia as America’s “number one geopolitical foe.”[/link]
Obama, in response:Barack Obama lashed out with some adolescent sass: “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold Wars been over for 20 years.
So Palin is an idiot, but she was right, and Obama looks like less than the idiot.
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I did not know Senator Obama had the sort of influence then to encourage Putin to act today. One usually associates said encouragement to the then sitting President’s actions (who looked into Putin’s eyes…), not a Senator.
Maybe said encouragement came from the prior Administration’s strong response to the Georgia invasion. Putin is still reeling. We can all learn something from George & Sarah, I’m sure.
I suppose the real question from all is what was the advice that Obama should have heeded that would have prevented Putin from walking into the Crimea? And now what should Obama do now? Threaten troops?
Seriously.
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None of those right wing clowns are saying what SHOULD HAVE been done, they’re just doing the same old “it’s Obama’s fault” bull crap that everyone has gotten sick of hearing.
The truth is, Crimea ain’t worth crap to us, so why should we care if Russia wants it? Ukraine isn’t part of NATO so we have no business doing anything about it. Ukraine wants to be part of the EU, but the EU realizes Ukraine doesn’t have anything of value to offer. If the majority of Crimeans want to be Russian apologists, that’s their business, not ours. Russia doesn’t need Crimea for its coastline to the Black Sea and neither does Ukraine. The only real value Crimea has to Russia are the naval base and the fact that the majority of people are of Russian descent and speak Russian. Neither Crimea or the Ukraine has asked USA to intervene.
So what on earth are the right wing traitors trying to get us into?!
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the problem is there is untapped oil in the black sea that top oil company has put some money in for exploration I believe..can’t google it all right now
Quote from Lux
None of those right wing clowns are saying what SHOULD HAVE been done, they’re just doing the same old “it’s Obama’s fault” bull crap that everyone has gotten sick of hearing.
The truth is, Crimea ain’t worth crap to us, so why should we care if Russia wants it? Ukraine isn’t part of NATO so we have no business doing anything about it. Ukraine wants to be part of the EU, but the EU realizes Ukraine doesn’t have anything of value to offer. If the majority of Crimeans want to be Russian apologists, that’s their business, not ours. Russia doesn’t need Crimea for its coastline to the Black Sea and neither does Ukraine. The only real value Crimea has to Russia are the naval base and the fact that the majority of people are of Russian descent and speak Russian. Neither Crimea or the Ukraine has asked USA to intervene.
So what on earth are the right wing traitors trying to get us into?!
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Quote from Noah’sArk
the problem is there is untapped oil in the black sea that top oil company has put some money in for exploration I believe..can’t google it all right now
Both Russian and Ukraine have a long coastline on the Black Sea without considering Crimea. The battle of Crimea seems irrelevant to their access to Black Sea oil. I’m not aware of any especially huge oil fields on Crimea, itself, but I might be wrong.
As far as I know, the USA doesn’t have nearly the interest in Black Sea oil compared to its interest in the huge reserve under the Caspian Sea next door. That’s what’s being tapped by Unocal’s pipeline.
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What’s sad is those demanding our intervention fail to realize the irony of Putin asserting the equivalent of the Bush doctrine or his use of the same logic that lead Reagan to invade Grenada
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I’m well aware, Lux, of the pile on mentality of the Right that no matter what happens, it’s Obama’s fault. Sardonicus is of that mentality is all I was saying.
As for the importance on Crimea, I am not comfortable abandoning them to Putin. Putin would love to leave a legacy of reuniting the USSR the same way it was united, at the point of a gun. First Georgia, now Crimea, then Ukraine. Next are the Baltic States.
Military is not the appropriate answer but the Allies have to stick together. Britain has a lot of Russian money invested, for example. Germany & other EU States have to resist rolling over for Russian oil & gas however.
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Now, this sounds like a definite possibility. After all, Russian soldiers but with no insignia? We’ll have to see.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/05/opinion/what-putin-really-wants.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…utin-really-wants.html[/link] -
Quote from Frumious
Now, this sounds like a definite possibility. After all, Russian soldiers but with no insignia? We’ll have to see.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/05/opinion/what-putin-really-wants.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…utin-really-wants.html[/link]Fascinating. The most realistic hypothesis I’ve read yet. Thanks.
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[b]”The losers will be those simpletons of international politics including the United States who mistook the clashes of some Ukrainian neo-Nazis with Mr. Yanukovychs police force for the dawning of democracy and the beginning of a Ukrainian Spring.” [/b]
Soapy, what does that say for the obummer? He is truly a “simpleton of international politics”
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Sorry Pointy it is exactly why Obama is being cautious. Meanwhile McCain was more than happy to join the protestors.
The rights man crush on Putin is in full view
[link=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/05/why-neocons-love-the-strongman.html]http://www.thedailybeast….ove-the-strongman.html[/link]
For the neocons to blame Obama for the actions of a madman, incessantly using adjectives that are meant to communicate to the world that the president of the United States can be steamrolled, and possibly should be for his own good, is close to anti-American. But they cant blame Putin. Hes their doppelganger, psychologically. He is them, and they are him. Woe betide the world if they ever do face each other.
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can you really respect thug like men not wearing any soldier detail confiscating part of a country that had been given away as a gift …..oh but then again someone took a super bowl ring as his own
come on Point …there is such a thing as character/diplomacy.. I know I am not an elected official/ probably worth 2 cent to U but certain acts you just can’t condone
I pray for our special people who have yet had their Olympics…are they safe …will thug-like non military men show up at their eventQuote from Point Man
[b]”The losers will be those simpletons of international politics including the United States who mistook the clashes of some Ukrainian neo-Nazis with Mr. Yanukovychs police force for the dawning of democracy and the beginning of a Ukrainian Spring.” [/b]
Soapy, what does that say for the obummer? He is truly a “simpleton of international politics” -
Putin look at how distinguished and professional Kerry is..learn!!
I have been in the hood as a child raised by a single parent… I know hood rat behavior.. Mr. pUTin u can do better -
The Onion must be reading AM’s posts.
[link=http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/]http://www.theonion.com/a…us-citizens-alo,35428/[/link]
[h1][/h1][h1]Ukrainian-Russian Tensions Dividing U.S. Citizens Along Ignorant, Apathetic Lines[/h1] According to a poll released Monday by the Pew Research Center, the escalating conflict between Russia and Ukraine has left Americans sharply and bitterly divided along ignorant and apathetic lines, with the nations citizenry evenly split between grossly misinformed and wholly indifferent factions.
Fairly easy to see who the grossly misinformed and ignorant are.
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Quote from Frumious
The Onion must be reading AM’s posts.
[link=http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/]http://www.theonion.com/a…us-citizens-alo,35428/[/link]
[h1]Ukrainian-Russian Tensions Dividing U.S. Citizens Along Ignorant, Apathetic Lines[/h1] According to a poll released Monday by the Pew Research Center, the escalating conflict between Russia and Ukraine has left Americans sharply and bitterly divided along ignorant and apathetic lines, with the nations citizenry evenly split between grossly misinformed and wholly indifferent factions.
Fairly easy to see who the grossly misinformed and ignorant are.
Mrs_dergon linked that to me yesterday 🙂
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[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-obamas-inaction-enables-putins-grab-for-ukraine/2014/03/06/c4222690-a55f-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html]http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-obamas-inaction-enables-putins-grab-for-ukraine/2014/03/06/c4222690-a55f-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html[/link]
[i]”Vladimir Putin is a lucky man. And hes got three more years of luck to come. [/i]
[i]He takes Crimea, and President Obama says its not in Russias interest, [link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/03/04/obama-putins-moves-are-not-a-sign-of-strength/]not even strategically clever[/link]. Indeed, its a sign of weakness.[/i]
[i]Really? Crimea belonged to Moscow for 200 years. Russia annexed it 20 years before Jefferson acquired Louisiana. Lost it in the humiliation of the 1990s. Putin got it back in about three days without firing a shot.[/i]
[i]Now Russia looms over the rest of eastern and southern Ukraine. Putin can take that anytime he wants if he wants. He has already destabilized the nationalist government in Kiev. Ukraine is now truncated and on the life support of [link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/eu-to-provide-ukraine-with-aid-worth-15-billion/2014/03/05/5c773ee6-a45a-11e3-b865-38b254d92063_story.html]U.S. and European money[/link] (much of which cash for gas will end up in Putins treasury anyway).”[/i]
[i] [/i]
[b]OUCH! – [/b]R-S-P-E-C-T
Krauthammer, the master of letters, as usual, is spot on with his analysis. He delineates the weak policies that led to this. I sure hope we still have a country in three years. -
Why does the Right admire Putin so much? Putin should have been invited to CPAC to show Conservatives how leadership is done. Then he should throw his hat in the ring for 2016. Putin would probaby get a standing ovation for that from CPAC!
[i][/i][i]GIULIANI: Putin decides what he wants to do and he does it in half a day, right? He decided he had to go to their parliament. He went to their parliament. He got permission in 15 minutes. [/i]
[i]CAVUTO: Well, that was kind of like perfunctory. [/i]
[i]GIULIANI: But he makes a decision and he executes it, quickly. Then everybody reacts. That’s what you call a leader. President Obama, he’s got to think about it. He’s got to go over it again. He’s got to talk to more people about it. [/i][i][/i]
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[link=http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-6-2014/big-vladdy—semi-delusional-autocrats]http://www.thedailyshow.c…i-delusional-autocrats[/link]
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[link=http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/07/enough-with-the-tough-guy-debate/]Enough with the tough guy debate[/link][/h1]
Inevitably, the crisis in Ukraine is being discussed in Washington largely through the lens of political polarization. It seems like any and every topic is fodder for partisan dispute these days, even the weather actually, especially the weather.
Many Republicans are [link=http://crossfire.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/06/are-republicans-undermining-obama-on-world-stage/]arguing that Russian President Vladimir Putin intervened[/link] in the Crimea region of Ukraine because of President Barack Obama’s weakness. Putin saw that Obama didn’t want to go to war in Syria, for example, and this emboldened Putin.
Well, who knows right? It’s tough to know what would have happened in an alternative universe. Imagine that we still had Putin around in charge of Russia, but imagine he faced a different president, one who was tough, aggressive, who had no compunctions about invading countries.
Oh wait, we ran that very experiment in 2008! Putin faced George W. Bush, a president who had invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for good measure (and, in the latter case, defying massive international pressure and opposition). And yet, Putin invaded Georgia. And not, as he did this time, in a stealthy way with soldiers who were already there who simply switched their uniforms. He sent in Russian tanks roaring into Georgia and without any referendums [link=http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/]simply annexed two pieces of that country[/link].
Does this prove that Bush was a wimp after all? No it doesnt. You see, there has been some very good and careful scholarship by [link=http://www.amazon.com/Calculating-Credibility-Leaders-Military-Security/dp/0801474159]Daryl Press[/link] and[link=http://www.amazon.com/Reputation-International-Politics-Cornell-Security/dp/0801474892]Jonathan Mercer[/link] among others that looks at historical cases to figure out whether having a reputation for “toughness” actually deters your opponents from doing bad things like invading countries.
In general, the answer is, no.
Countries make these decisions based on many factors. But the most important ones seem to be a careful analysis of the power dynamics of the specific case. So in Ukraine, Russia would ask, is this a vital interest of the United States? And what is Washington’s capacity to act in this particular situation?
In other words, Putin would look at his cards, look at Washington’s cards, and the specifics of the situation in Ukraine rather than assuming that because Bush invaded Iraq, he would defend Georgia, or that because Obama didn’t invade Syria, he would do nothing about Ukraine.
Politicians in Washington are convinced that Putin was encouraged by Western weakness. But it’s actually quite possible that Putin felt he was acting to stop the West’s growing strength. After all, just look at the situation from Russian eyes.
In 1991, Moscow gave up its 75-year-old Soviet empire. It also gave up large parts of its 300-year-old Russian empire including Ukraine. Since then, its historic rival, NATO, has expanded closer and closer to Moscow’s borders. And then, the West encouraged Ukrainians to take to the streets and depose their president, who had close ties to Moscow.
Now none of this excuses aggression or justifies Putin’s thuggish response. But if we are going to find a political solution in Ukraine that will stick, we need to recognize that the issues at stake are not personal and that they are much larger than Obama’s alleged weakness and Putin’s paranoia.
[link=http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/07/enough-with-the-tough-guy-debate/?hpt=hp_bn2]http://globalpublicsquare…guy-debate/?hpt=hp_bn2[/link]
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I agree we need to respond, and I agree it should be economic or political, but not with threats of military violence. The latter is the worst possible way to address this situation. The right wing has not loonie by implying we should so much as even suggest that’s on the table. Makes us look like adolescents spraying the walls with testosterone all over again. We shouldn’t even honor Putin’s comment about the Bush Doctrine with an answer. We should put Bush far behind us and not give him the credibility of debating it with Putin in the first place.
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Thomas Friedman with a great writing… and some long term strategy.. on dealing with Putin
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/05/opinion/friedman-why-putin-doesnt-respect-us.html?ref=opinion&_r=0]http://www.nytimes.com/20…l?ref=opinion&_r=0[/link]
We vastly exaggerate Putins strength so does he and we vastly underestimate our own strength, and ability to weaken him through nonmilitary means.
Lets start with Putin. Any man who actually believes, as Putin has said, that the breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century is caught up in a dangerous fantasy that cant end well for him or his people. The Soviet Union died because Communism could not provide rising standards of living, and its collapse actually unleashed boundless human energy all across Eastern Europe and Russia. A wise Putin would have redesigned Russia so its vast human talent could take advantage of all that energy. He would be fighting today to get Russia into the European Union, not to keep Ukraine out. But that is not who Putin is and never will be. He is guilty of the soft bigotry of low expectations toward his people and prefers to turn Russia into a mafia-run petro-state all the better to steal from.
So Putin is now fighting human nature among his own young people and his neighbors who both want more E.U. and less Putinism.
To put it in market terms, Putin is long oil and short history. He has made himself steadily richer and Russia steadily more reliant on natural resources rather than its human ones. History will not be kind to him especially if energy prices ever collapse.
So spare me the Putin-body-slammed-Obama prattle. This isnt All-Star Wrestling. The fact that Putin has seized Crimea, a Russian-speaking zone of Ukraine, once part of Russia, where many of the citizens prefer to be part of Russia and where Russia has a major naval base, is not like taking Poland. I support economic and diplomatic sanctions to punish Russia for its violation of international norms and making clear that harsher sanctions, even military aid for Kiev, would ensue should Putin try to bite off more of Ukraine. But we need to remember that that little corner of the world is always going to mean more, much more, to Putin than to us, and we should refrain from making threats on which were not going to deliver.
I dont want to go to war with Putin, but it is time we expose his real weakness and our real strength. That, though, requires a long-term strategy not just fulminating on Meet the Press. It requires going after the twin pillars of his regime: oil and gas. Just as the oil glut of the 1980s, partly engineered by the Saudis, brought down global oil prices to a level that helped collapse Soviet Communism, we could do the same today to Putinism by putting the right long-term policies in place. That is by investing in the facilities to liquefy and export our natural gas bounty (provided it is extracted at the highest environmental standards) and making Europe, which gets 30 percent of its gas from Russia, more dependent on us instead. Id also raise our gasoline tax, put in place a carbon tax and a national renewable energy portfolio standard all of which would also help lower the global oil price (and make us stronger, with cleaner air, less oil dependence and more innovation).
You want to frighten Putin? Just announce those steps. But you know the story, the tough guys in Washington who want to take on Putin would rather ask 1 percent of Americans the military and their families to make the ultimate sacrifice than have all of us make a small sacrifice in the form of tiny energy price increases. Those tough guys who thump their chests in Congress but run for the hills if you ask them to vote for a 10-cent increase in the gasoline tax that would actually boost our leverage, theyll never rise to this challenge. Well do anything to expose Putins weakness; anything that isnt hard. And you wonder why Putin holds us in contempt?
Energy is the key.
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In other news – Hell freezes over.
[link=http://crossfire.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/06/graham-now-says-obamas-done-good-job/]http://crossfire.blogs.cn…-obamas-done-good-job/[/link][link=http://crossfire.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/06/graham-now-says-obamas-done-good-job/]Graham Now Says Obama’s Done Good Job[/link][/h1]
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What it always seems to boil down to is that the extremist Republicans love to go all-in too soon.
Obama is playing his cards properly. No one has been hurt. No shot has been fired. Putin has not been pressed into making any hard threats; he’s still just rattling his saber testing us by using our own (Bush Doctrine) strategy against us. Meanwhile, Obama has escalated the urgency slowly and properly to get every bit of mileage out of each step of the way. He’s reeling the fish in steadily instead of pulling it all in at once and snapping the line.
The GOP always gravitates toward premature ejac, and that’s what always ends up getting us into trouble.
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Straw man argument. Nobody said that we should go in shooting. Look at my earlier posts. What we should have done, is to not have 5 years of idiotic “reset”. We should have projected strength, kept our word, valued our allies, maintained leverage by keeping the missile shields in Poland and the Czech Republic, drilled for oil, built pipelines etc.
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Quote from aldadoc
Straw man argument. Nobody said that we should go in shooting. Look at my earlier posts. What we should have done, is to not have 5 years of idiotic “reset”. We should have projected strength, kept our word, valued our allies, maintained leverage by keeping the missile shields in Poland and the Czech Republic, drilled for oil, built pipelines etc.
What does the missile shield do to improve our leverage?-
Quote from DICOM_Dan
What does the missile shield do to improve our leverage?
I can’t believe you asked this. Putin [b]hated[/b] the missile shield. Obama took it down and got nothing in return, other than disdain from our allies. Leverage is having something the other guy wants.-
Quote from aldadoc
Quote from DICOM_Dan
What does the missile shield do to improve our leverage?
I can’t believe you asked this. Putin [b]hated[/b] the missile shield. Obama took it down and got nothing in return, other than disdain from our allies. Leverage is having something the other guy wants.
OK, Than what was the point of the missile shield? Just to make Putin mad or, don’t want to make the Pols angry. If it’s a matter of function, I’ve got to believe we had a lot more ordinance and technology out there than just a polish missile shield. I don’t think we’d be launching missiles on Russia because they are in the Ukraine.
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The primary reason for scrapping was popular opposition to the plans in Poland and the Czech republic. (And remember if you will that the stated purpose of the system was to defend against Iranian missile attack).
While there was some disapproval by the governments of Poland and the CR, the move was supported by the populace of those countries.
The scrapping of the plan was also welcomed by our european allies including France, Germany and the UK who thought it would be unnecessarily provacative and potentially destabilizing.
I understand that the John McCain crowd thought it was a gift to Moscow, but what missile system/ intervention/ war has McCain [i]not[/i] been in favor of?
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Look, let’s not fool ourselves. ANY long range missile under USA control located ANYWHERE within the known universe will be considered a serious potential threat to ANY square meter on planet earth, be it in Russia, Iran, or North Korea. There is no need whatsoever to put a missile right there in the neighbor’s yard where it will be exposed as clearly as neon.
The “shield” was put there to make our [i]neighbors[/i] feel secure, not the USA. Anyone who interprets the removal of the Poland “shield” as an act of American weakness has a very shallow knowledge of the power of USA weaponry. Such ignorance also accounts for the gross misconception that the Second Amendment actually empowers us to grab our Remingtons and AKs and somehow overthrow the greatest military force on the planet if the feds get too tyrannical for our taste.
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Drilled for how much oil, where, which pipelines, and to what specific outcome?
Keeping missile sheilds in Poland would have had zero impact on the events in Syria and Crimea.
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[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-on-ukraine-obama-must-lead-from-the-front/2014/03/13/10b9359a-aaea-11e3-af5f-4c56b834c4bf_story.html]http://www.washingtonpost…c56b834c4bf_story.html[/link]
Why (this time) Obama must lead
The crisis in Ukraine was produced by two sets of blunders, neither emanating from Washington. The European Unions vacillations and most significantly, of course Russias aggression created the problem. But it will be up to President Obama to show the strength and skill to resolve it.
For years, the European Union has been ambivalent toward Ukraine, causing instability in that country and opposition from Russia. The unions greatest source of power is the prospect of it offering membership. This magnet has transformed societies in southern and eastern Europe, creating stability, economic modernization and democracy. For that reason, it is a weapon that should be wielded strategically and seriously. In the case of Ukraine, it was not.
But lets not persist in believing that Moscows moves have been strategically brilliant. Vladimir Putin must have watched with extreme frustration in February as [link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/gunmens-seizure-of-parliament-building-stokes-tensions-in-ukraines-crimea/2014/02/27/2539871c-9f83-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html?hpid=z2]a pro-Russian government was toppled[/link] and Ukraine was slipping from his grasp. After the Olympics ended, he acted swiftly,[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/obama-warns-russia-over-military-moves-in-crimea/2014/02/28/c82780a4-a0d8-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html]sending his forces into Crimea[/link]. It was a blunder. In taking over Crimea, Putin has lost Ukraine.
Since 1991, Russia has influenced Ukraine through pro-Russian politicians who were bribed by Moscow to listen to its diktats. That path is now blocked. …once you take Crimea out of Ukraine which Putin has done it becomes virtually impossible for a pro-Russian Ukrainian ever to win the presidency. Remember, Ukraine is divided but not in half. Without Crimea, only 15 percent of the population will be ethnic Russian.
I have generally been wary of the calls for U.S. intervention in any and every conflict around the world. But this is different. The crisis in Ukraine is the most significant geopolitical problem since the Cold War. Unlike many of the tragic ethnic and civil wars that have bubbled up over the past three decades, this one involves a great global power, Russia, and thus can and will have far-reaching consequences. And it involves a great global principle: whether national boundaries can be changed by brute force. If it becomes acceptable to do so, what will happen in Asia, where there are dozens of contested boundaries and several great powers that want to remake them?
Obama must rally the world, push the Europeans and negotiate with the Russians. In this crisis, the United States truly is the indispensable nation.
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I think it is fair to assume that Obama is in intense, frequent discussions with Europe and perhaps the UN about Ukraine. We just don’t hear about it.
The last thing the White House wants is for Faux to start spinning what are surely very sensitive White House communications into the outer stratosphere while the rest of the world actually believes Faux’s fabricated nonsense. Does any other country realize it is legal in the US to call something “news” even though it has no basis in fact? Hell, even the great and powerful China thought the satire published by The Onion was fact!
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oh well, worst case scenario is that crimea and eastern Ukraine become part of russia; while kiev comes under even more western influence. When has that EVER happened? Putin’s action only fast track nato status for kiev.
It seems like its the US thats playing chess, and Russia risking everything just to remain relevant.-
Exactly. Without Crimea only 5% of Ukraine remains Russian. That’s prime fodder for NATO sitting right there next to Russia if Putin flips the Crimea switch. He can’t believe he’ll be that dumb.
I think Obama will get a helluva lot more credit for political savvy with that maneuver than any credit Dubya will ever get for his fiasco in Iraq.
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Putin has accomplished what he wanted … for now. Here’s how this is going to play out:
Putin gets Crimea though a “referendum”. He bares his teeth at Eastern Ukraine to show them who is boss, but does not further invade them. The West will kick and scream for a while, but in the end will settle for a quid pro quo. Putin keeps Crimea and leaves the rest of Ukraine alone. In return the West does not apply any significant sanctions. Ukraine, now properly intimidated will not join NATO. NATO will not want Ukraine either, because they don’t want that tripwire. Advantage Putin. Check mate.
A few years later, when the opportunity arises again, Putin will take another chunk of territory from someone. If I was Latvia or Estonioa, I would be worried.-
Alda with another man crush on Putin
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Sorry to disappoint you Thor, but I hate the bas%@rd. Just calling it like it is. I don’t like this any more than you.
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The way I see it, the cat is out of the bag. Crimea is toast. At this point there are three ways to stop Putin’s aggression:
1. An internal insurrection: Russian people not wanting to be alienated from the West again push back internally.
2. Economic drag: It costs a lot of money to sustain an occupation and to maintain hundreds of thousands of troops on alert. This can bankrupt a country. Stiff economic sanctions can add to the pain, but can also boomerang.
3. Military pushback: This will never happen, because the US has downsized the military to the point of not being able to exert overwhelming superiority. The US and the Europeans lack the inclination and the will to get into a major war with the Russians, short of them invading Germany or France. Nobody (including me), wants a shooting war over Eastern Europe, especially against a credible military that commands nuclear weapons.
We are left with patience, slow heat and sustained pressure will work (frog in pot principle). The Chinese are good at this. They waited out Hong Kong and will wait out Taiwan. It just takes a long view to accomplish this. It may take 50 years to play out, but can be done without firing a shot.
We can argue about the merits of US reaction to this aggression, or whether any president could have prevented this. I don’t think we will ever really know, but our lack of resolve and abandonment of agreements has cost us the trust of our former allies. Everyone is bailing on us like rats on a sinking ship.
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Quote from aldadoc
but our lack of resolve and abandonment of agreements has cost us the trust of our former allies. Everyone is bailing on us like rats on a sinking ship.
Everything before the above quoted was well-said, especially the eight words before “but”.
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Aldadoc, what you seem to have failed to realize is that with Putin taking Crimea he has lost Ukraine for certain.
If anything, this is a coup for Obama and the free world. The USA will be now able to advance our missile shield from Poland into Ukraine if we wanted to! I personally believe Putin saw that eventuality, which is why he needed to hold onto Crimea so that he was sure he would not lose his huge military base there.
This shows great resolve on the part of the USA, not lack of resolve.
And who exactly are all of these people who you claim are “bailing”?
You hawks need to look at the next few moves on the chessboard, not just the current position of the pieces.
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OK…Russia…Putin has had a divorce/ new babe and ? IMHO work done on his face …is he going thru something …maybe Merkle’s words were really right
where is his thought process -
the years have not been kind imho
like Obama would never go there with getting wok done imho -
G7 suspends Russia
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G7 suspends Russia (booted)
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So Vlad comes calling on Obama, huh?
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Putin..this man has a special set of skills
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Unabashed move to the West by the new Ukraine leadership. The deal (and the backing out of it) that led to the Kiev protests has been done.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/28/world/europe/ukraine-signs-trade-agreement-with-european-union.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…th-european-union.html[/link]
[b]
Ukraine Signs Trade Agreement With European Union[/b][/h1]
Seven months after Ukraines former president Viktor F. Yanukovych rejected a sweeping trade deal with the European Union and [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/27/world/europe/protests-continue-as-ukraine-leader-defends-stance-on-europe.html]set off protests[/link] that drove him from power, Ukraines new leader on Friday accepted the pact, which Russia has bitterly opposed as a threat to its own economic and strategic interests in the former Soviet Union.
The news agency Interfax in Moscow quoted Russias deputy foreign minister as warning that serious consequences would follow the signing of a deal that Moscow has long worked to derail.
The signing followed months of upheaval in Ukraine that split the country and set off an armed, separatist rebellion in the east that has yet to be resolved. While a moment of triumph for the European Union, it represented a setback of sorts for President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, who considered Ukraine an integral part of Russia and was determined not to let it slide into the Wests orbit.
The accord with the European Union fulfills an election promise by Mr. Poroshenko to move Ukraine closer to Europe, reversing a course set by Mr. Yanukovych before his ouster. But it could complicate another pledge he made to curb violence by separatists who have seized government buildings in a number of cities in eastern Ukraine where residents feel a close affinity to neighboring Russia.
The signing of the accord represented a huge, symbolic political victory, and was greeted in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, as a triumph for the thousands of demonstrators who camped out for months in Independence Square, ultimately driving Mr. Yanukovych to flee to Russia. Europes call, however, for integrating Ukraine politically and economically into the West seems as distant as ever given the violence still plaguing the east of the country.
On Friday, Mr. Putin blamed the months of crisis in Ukraine on Western leaders, saying they had forced Kiev to choose between Russia and the European Union.
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and the west has WON
Quote from dergon
Unabashed move to the West by the new Ukraine leadership. The deal (and the backing out of it) that led to the Kiev protests has been done.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/28/world/europe/ukraine-signs-trade-agreement-with-european-union.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…th-european-union.html[/link]
[b]
Ukraine Signs Trade Agreement With European Union[/b]
Seven months after Ukraines former president Viktor F. Yanukovych rejected a sweeping trade deal with the European Union and [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/27/world/europe/protests-continue-as-ukraine-leader-defends-stance-on-europe.html]set off protests[/link] that drove him from power, Ukraines new leader on Friday accepted the pact, which Russia has bitterly opposed as a threat to its own economic and strategic interests in the former Soviet Union.The news agency Interfax in Moscow quoted Russias deputy foreign minister as warning that serious consequences would follow the signing of a deal that Moscow has long worked to derail.
The signing followed months of upheaval in Ukraine that split the country and set off an armed, separatist rebellion in the east that has yet to be resolved. While a moment of triumph for the European Union, it represented a setback of sorts for President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, who considered Ukraine an integral part of Russia and was determined not to let it slide into the Wests orbit.
The accord with the European Union fulfills an election promise by Mr. Poroshenko to move Ukraine closer to Europe, reversing a course set by Mr. Yanukovych before his ouster. But it could complicate another pledge he made to curb violence by separatists who have seized government buildings in a number of cities in eastern Ukraine where residents feel a close affinity to neighboring Russia.
The signing of the accord represented a huge, symbolic political victory, and was greeted in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, as a triumph for the thousands of demonstrators who camped out for months in Independence Square, ultimately driving Mr. Yanukovych to flee to Russia. Europes call, however, for integrating Ukraine politically and economically into the West seems as distant as ever given the violence still plaguing the east of the country.
On Friday, Mr. Putin blamed the months of crisis in Ukraine on Western leaders, saying they had forced Kiev to choose between Russia and the European Union.
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France gets on board with tougher moves — Hollande blocks the warship transfers
[link=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-03/hollande-suspends-warship-delivery-to-russia-before-nato.html]http://www.bloomberg.com/…ussia-before-nato.html[/link]
[link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/france/]France[/link] suspended the delivery of the first of two Mistral warships to [link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/russia/]Russia[/link], saying that Russias actions in eastern Ukraine go against the interests of European security.
France has come under international pressure to cancel the 1.2 billion-euro ($1.6 billion) contract. Signed in 2011, it commited France to deliver two Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia, the first in October of this year and a second in 2016.
The head of the defense committee of Russias lower house of parliament, Vladimir Komoyedov, said that France came under pressure to carry out the orders of [link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/uncle-sam/]Uncle Sam[/link], in freezing the Mistral contract, RIA Novosti reported.
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about time they stepped up
Quote from dergon
France gets on board with tougher moves — Hollande blocks the warship transfers
[link=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-03/hollande-suspends-warship-delivery-to-russia-before-nato.html]http://www.bloomberg.com/…ussia-before-nato.html[/link]
[link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/france/]France[/link] suspended the delivery of the first of two Mistral warships to [link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/russia/]Russia[/link], saying that Russias actions in eastern Ukraine go against the interests of European security.
France has come under international pressure to cancel the 1.2 billion-euro ($1.6 billion) contract. Signed in 2011, it commited France to deliver two Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia, the first in October of this year and a second in 2016.
The head of the defense committee of Russias lower house of parliament, Vladimir Komoyedov, said that France came under pressure to carry out the orders of [link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/uncle-sam/]Uncle Sam[/link], in freezing the Mistral contract, RIA Novosti reported.
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[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/]http://www.washingtonpost…want-u-s-to-intervene/[/link]
An awesome (and a little bit scary) poll.
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/]http://www.washingtonpost…want-u-s-to-intervene/[/link]
On March 28-31, 2014, we asked a national sample of 2,066 Americans (fielded via Survey Sampling International Inc. (SSI), what action they wanted the U.S. to take in Ukraine, but with a twist: In addition to measuring standard demographic characteristics and [link=http://psychology.uchicago.edu/people/faculty/visser/Herrmann,%20Tetlock,%20Visser%20(1999).pdf]general foreign policy attitudes[/link], we also asked our survey respondents to locate Ukraine on a map as part of a larger, ongoing project to study foreign policy knowledge. We wanted to see where Americans think Ukraine is and to learn if this knowledge (or lack thereof) is related to their foreign policy views. We found that only one out of six Americans can find Ukraine on a map, and that this lack of knowledge is related to preferences: The farther their guesses were from Ukraines actual location, the more they wanted the U.S. to intervene with military force.
About one in six (16 percent) Americans correctly located Ukraine, clicking somewhere within its borders. Most thought that Ukraine was located somewhere in Europe or Asia, but the median respondent was about 1,800 miles off …
Does it really matter whether Americans can put Ukraine on a map? Previous[link=http://www.amazon.com/Opinion-American-Analytical-Perspectives-Politics/dp/0472030116/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396576836&sr=8-1&keywords=holsti+foreign+policy]research[/link] would suggest yes: Information, or the absence thereof, can influence Americans attitudes about the kind of policies they want their government to carry out and the ability of [link=http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/tclim/f11_courses/lawrence-who_influences_fp.pdf]elites[/link] to shape that [link=http://themonkeycage.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/berinski.pdf]agenda[/link]. Accordingly, we also asked our respondents a variety of questions about what they thought about the current situation on the ground, and what they wanted the United States to do. Similarly to other recent polls, we found that although Americans are undecided on what to do with Ukraine, they are more likely to oppose action in Ukraine the costlier it is 45 percent of Americans supported boycotting the G8 summit, for example, while only 13 percent of Americans supported using force.
However, the further our respondents thought that Ukraine was from its actual location, the more they wanted the U.S. to intervene militarily. Even controlling for a series of demographic characteristics and participants general foreign policy attitudes, we found that the less accurate our participants were, the more they wanted the U.S. to use force, the greater the threat they saw Russia as posing to U.S. interests, and the more they thought that using force would advance U.S. national security interests; all of these effects are statistically significant at a 95 percent confidence level. Our results are clear, but also somewhat disconcerting: The less people know about where Ukraine is located on a map, the more they want the U.S. to intervene militarily.
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More on Obama foreign policy efforts:
[link=http://en.ria.ru/world/20140716/190951946/Obama-Merkel-to-Coordinate-Possible-New-Sanctions-Against-Russia.html]http://en.ria.ru/world/20…ns-Against-Russia.html[/link]
Obama seems to be winning the slow fight on Russia/Putin Ukraine. Despite the rift over bungled spying, Merkel is ready to bring the EU along on tougher sanctions.
President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel announced late Tuesday they are ready to coordinate possible new sanctions against Russia, according to the White House statement issued on the results of the phone conversation between the two leaders.
The President and the Chancellor reaffirmed their commitment to work together with other allies to ensure that Europe and the United States remain closely coordinated on measures to impose costs on Russia, as necessary, as well as to continue to support Ukraines long-term stability and prosperity, the statement reads.
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Quote from Fareed at the time of the Crimea take-over
But step back and consider what a strategic disaster this is for him.
Ukraine has slipped out of Russia’s orbit. Most of the population there is going to be hostile toward Russia for generations.
Putin gets Crimea, which by the way in only 60% Russian. Parts of it will be hostile to this Russian takeover , including the population of Crimean Tartars who are Muslim and getting radicalized.
So even as he lines up one more piece, or half piece, on his chess board Vladimir Putin will find that the price he has paid for it is quite high.
[link=http://www.gallup.com/poll/180110/ukrainian-approval-russia-leadership-dives-almost.aspx]http://www.gallup.com/pol…ship-dives-almost.aspx[/link]
[b]
[h1]Ukrainian Approval of Russia’s Leadership Dives Almost 90%[/b][/h1]Any kinship Ukrainians used to feel with Moscow’s leadership is gone after Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region in March. Just 5% of Ukrainians interviewed this fall say they approve of Russia’s leadership, down almost 90% from the approval rating of 43% the year before.
The drastic change in approval is not that surprising given Russia’s backing of pro-Russian separatists and its gas dispute with Ukraine, but it marks a full divorce from Ukrainians’ [link=http://www.gallup.com/poll/148862/Russia-Leadership-Not-Popular-Worldwide.aspx]generally high approval ratings[/link] of Russian leadership over the past decade. Importantly, ratings have declined sharply across [i]all of Ukraine[/i] — including the country’s typically more Russian-leaning South and East, where 57% approved in 2013 and 12% approve today. In Ukraine’s Central and North and Western regions, current approval is 1% and 2%, respectively.
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[link=http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-25/out-my-face-please-why-are-us-soldiers-mariupol]http://www.zerohedge.com/…e-us-soldiers-mariupol[/link]
Looks like US troops (or at least one American …dressed in Ukraine army uniform) are in Mariupol.
Interesting
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[link=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/02/03/white_house_reconsiders_arms_for_ukraine.html]http://www.realclearpolit…_arms_for_ukraine.html[/link]
Obama reconsiders military aid to Ukraine as fighting escalates.
Oh proxy wars, how I have missed you.-
[url=http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-05-26/putin-burns-his-dead-to-hide-ukraine-aggression]Russia Is Using Mobile Crematoriums to Hide Ukraine’s Dead[/url]
Russia is so desperate to hide its military involvement in Ukraine that it has brought in mobile crematoriums to destroy the bodies of its war dead, say U.S. lawmakers who traveled to the war-torn country this spring.
The U.S. and NATO have long maintained that thousands of Russian troops are fighting alongside separatists inside eastern Ukraine, and that the Russian government is obscuring not only the presence but also the deaths of its soldiers there. In March, NATO Deputy Secretary General Alexander Vershbow told a conference, “Russian leaders are less and less able to conceal the fact that Russian soldiers are fighting — and dying — in large numbers in eastern Ukraine.”
Hence the extreme measures to get rid of the evidence. The Russians are trying to hide their casualties by taking mobile crematoriums with them, House Armed Services Committee Chairman Mac Thornberry told me. They are trying to hide not only from the world but from the Russian people their involvement.
More on the same theme:
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/28/world/europe/ap-eu-russia-military.html]Russia Classifies Military Casualties in Peacetime[/url]
The decree published on the official government web-site and signed by Putin on Wednesday makes it a state secret to divulge information about peacetime losses of Russian troops in “special operations.”
The decree comes as evidence of Russian involvement in the conflict in eastern Ukraine is mounting.
Ukraine last week captured two men who it said were Russian officers operating on the side of the separatists in eastern Ukraine. The Russian defense ministry said the two are no longer active servicemen. The two men, however, insisted in several video interviews that they were in Ukraine on their commanders’ orders.
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I was just reading Russians did some close fly by of a US Destroyer operating is the black sea. Not that them completing provocative action is new. They blame the US for being “aggressive”, and the US Navy released video of the fly by. Supposedly both were operating in international air/water. This was by Crimea.
[link=https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCIQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2015%2F06%2F01%2Fpolitics%2Frussia-plane-navy-uss-ross%2Findex.html&ei=L9ltVc3-MMKxsATCwYKACA&v6u=https%3A%2F%2Fs-v6exp1-ds.metric.gstatic.com%2Fgen_204%3Fip%3D216.8.121.3%26ts%3D1433262384843116%26auth%3D5234up3no3eo3y5mtu3gu77zgz44tm7r%26rndm%3D0.7448120494373143&v6s=2&v6t=10134&usg=AFQjCNHOZFUDlJ1G67vT-UREc4MO49GADw&sig2=YvNPGdA6-zys7ePDtwzNhA&bvm=bv.94455598,d.cWc]https://www.google.com/ur…;bvm=bv.94455598,d.cWc[/link]
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[url=http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-nato-41028664]Donald Trump Gives awkard interview on Ukraine, drawing into question his level of knowledge.[/url] (also dodges on his relationship with Putin)
In an interview with George Stephanopoulos on the ABC News program This Week, Mr. Trump said that if he were president, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia would not send his forces into Ukraine. He then he backpedaled when Mr. Stephanopoulos pointed out that Russian troops had been there for nearly two years. …and he amplified his earlier suggestion that, if elected president, he might recognize Russias claim and end sanctions against it.
Hes not going into Ukraine, O.K., just so you understand, Mr. Trump, the Republican nominee, said when the issue came up. Hes not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want.
Well, hes already there, isnt he? Mr. Stephanopoulos interrupted.
O.K., well, hes there in a certain way, Mr. Trump replied. But Im not there. You have Obama there. And frankly, that whole part of the world is a mess under Obama with all the strength that youre talking about and all of the power of NATO and all of this. In the meantime, hes going away. He take takes Crimea.
Interpreting Mr. Trumps statements what he understands about the current status of Ukraine, a former Soviet republic, and how it would change in a Trump administration is difficult given the fractured nature of the exchange. But they were significant because Mr. Trump has seemingly embraced Mr. Putin, repeatedly called for better relations with Russia and shown an unwillingness to condemn Mr. Putin for his aggressive actions against Russias neighbors and its crackdowns on freedoms at home.
video:[link=http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-nato-41028664]http://abcnews.go.com/Thi…-ukraine-nato-41028664[/link]
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He can see Russia from Trump Towers…
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[link=https://thehill.com/policy/defense/547247-pentagon-may-send-warships-to-black-sea-in-support-of-ukraine]Biden may send warships to Black Sea in support of Ukraine
[/link]
The U.S. is considering sending Navy warships into the Black Sea to show support for Ukraine as Russia builds up its troops presence and military equipment on the U.S. allys eastern border.
The Biden administration has been on alert ever since Russia [link=https://thehill.com/policy/defense/546346-pentagon-on-alert-as-russia-steps-up-saber-rattling-in-eastern-europe-and]upped its saber rattling[/link] in Eastern Europe last month, with fighting resuming between Moscow-backed separatists and Ukrainian soldiers in eastern Ukraine, ending a cease-fire the two groups made last summer.
We call on Russia to make their intentions more clear as to what they’re doing with these array of forces along the border and we continue to call for the ceasefires that were called for by the Minsk Agreement, Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby told reporters on Tuesday.
He added that it was important to de-escalate the tensions along that border and for the territorial integrity and the sovereignty of Ukraine to be respected by Russia.[/QUOTE]
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Seems like the easiest and cheapest solution would be for people that want to be Russians to move to Russia. Do it on Russias rubles. Thats got to be cheaper than constant fighting. Is t the Russian tag line for being there anyway? Unless they have other motives like gas pipelines.
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[h1][link=https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-new-ukraine-essay-reflects-imperial-ambitions/]Atlantic Council[/link] — Putins new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions[/h1]
Russian President Vladimir Putin has outlined the historical basis for his claims against Ukraine in a [link=http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181]controversial new essay[/link] that has been likened in some quarters to a declaration of war.Russian President Vladimir Putin has outlined the historical basis for his claims against Ukraine in a controversial new essay that has been likened in some quarters to a declaration of war. The 5,000-word article, entitled [link=http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181]On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians[/link], was published on July 12 and features many of talking points favored by Putin throughout the past seven years of undeclared war between Russia and Ukraine.
The Russian leader uses the essay to reiterate his frequently voiced conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are one people, while blaming the current collapse in bilateral ties on foreign plots and anti-Russian conspiracies.
In one particularly ominous passage, he openly questions the legitimacy of Ukraines borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies historically Russian lands, before stating matter of factly, Russia was robbed. Elsewhere, he hints at a fresh annexation of Ukrainian territory, claiming, I am becoming more and more convinced of this: Kyiv simply does not need Donbas.
Putin ends his lengthy treatise by appearing to suggest that Ukrainian statehood itself ultimately depends on Moscows consent, declaring, I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.[/QUOTE]
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Zelenskyy finally gets his White House visit
will meet Biden Aug 30
wouldnt be surprised to see more Russian shenanigans
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[b]Russia Moving More Tanks Near Ukraine Border[/b][/h1]
Russia is moving more tanks near the border with Ukraine, defense-intelligence firm Janes said, reinforcing western concerns about reports of a build-up of Russian military forces close to its neighbor, [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-08/russia-moves-more-tanks-near-ukraine-amid-tensions-janes-says?srnd=premium-europe&sref=nXmOg68r]Bloomberg[/link] reports.
