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Flynn brought down by high-level intelligence leak
If I understand the situation correctly, intelligence agencies leaked damning information about General Flynn because he was either 1) plain untrustworthy for lying about contact with Russian agents, 2) too easily blackmailed in the future by the Russians for having lied, 3) a felon for violating the Logan Act, and / or 4) some or all of the above.
The intelligence community drew a line in the sand, the Trump administration crossed it, and got burned.
At what point does Trump’s involvement with Russia become a bridge too far for Congress? What’s the moral basis for House committees to give a potential case of treason or espionage a free pass, without an investigation? Is the limit of Congressional Republican support for Trump dependent on what corporate and private donors will ultimately stomach in exchange for fiscal & environmental deregulation and low taxes?Does anyone think Trump will let pass the opportunity to claim extraordinary powers, to personally appoint his cabinet, for instance, if given an political opportunity by tragedy?
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241 Replies
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So far the checks and balances seem to be working.
GOP senate just sent word to the administration to preserve files on Russia.
I cross my fingers that there are enough people in congress to do the right thing who would become emboldened if Trump pushed much further on executive power.
What worries me more is what happens during the intervening timeframe, particularly if Trump has to contend with a true crisis. The possibility of a major screw up leading to loss of blood and treasure is high.-
now he has the Sweden comment–every country sees the lies
-yesterday’s rallies was a sad spectacle of a man trapped in campaign mode–with the convenient Blacks for Trump’s sign( after the April Ryan flack , u would think they wold class it up to Black-American) and the sad Hillary lock her up sign–like hello are u in the twilight zone–Flynn resigned- to the bizarre use of the our father by Melania to throw shade–it did not seem sincere imho-
I’m not sure the GOP has the spine to do anything. There’s been enough IMO that they should all be on board with investigating. The reality is you have people like Rand Paul who will say things about not investigating your own party. Marco Rubio who makes for some nice sound bites but rubber stamps a cabinet pick anyway. Or putting Betsy Devos in charge of the department of education.
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Quote from steve511
If I understand the situation correctly, intelligence agencies leaked damning information about General Flynn because he was either 1) plain untrustworthy for lying about contact with Russian agents, 2) too easily blackmailed in the future by the Russians for having lied, 3) a felon for violating the Logan Act, and / or 4) some or all of the above.
The intelligence community drew a line in the sand, the Trump administration crossed it, and got burned.
Time for some housecleaning at the agencies. Preferably to include arrests and prosecutions. Doesn’t matter whether one agrees with Flynn or not, but if folks start breaking the law to further an agenda they need to be locked up.
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Leaks and whistleblowers are required in a democracy to keep the people informed. When the law covers up actions by government people contrary to the national interest, it is the duty of government officers to bring it into the sunshine. Laws are not invented to protect the guilty or protect from embarrassment for actions not in the national interest.
Maybe they deserve a patriotic medal.-
amen–to play devil’s advocate–one may say 1 craz out/ 2 more to go( Bannon/miller)
Quote from Frumious
Leaks and whistleblowers are required in a democracy to keep the people informed. When the law covers up actions by government people contrary to the national interest, it is the duty of government officers to bring it into the sunshine. Laws are not invented to protect the guilty or protect from embarrassment for actions not in the national interest.
Maybe they deserve a patriotic medal.
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Quote from fw
Quote from steve511
If I understand the situation correctly, intelligence agencies leaked damning information about General Flynn because he was either 1) plain untrustworthy for lying about contact with Russian agents, 2) too easily blackmailed in the future by the Russians for having lied, 3) a felon for violating the Logan Act, and / or 4) some or all of the above.
The intelligence community drew a line in the sand, the Trump administration crossed it, and got burned.
Time for some housecleaning at the agencies. Preferably to include arrests and prosecutions. Doesn’t matter whether one agrees with Flynn or not, but if folks start breaking the law to further an agenda they need to be locked up.
this is interesting to me because my perception is that the scales of justice favor people like HRC or David Petraeus. Whereas some nobody might feel the full weight of the US government come down on them.-
Quote from DICOM_Dan
this is interesting to me because my perception is that the scales of justice favor people like HRC or David Petraeus. Whereas some nobody might feel the full weight of the US government come down on them.
Unless of course you are gay. Then you get a pass and your espionage conviction disappears into a cloud of smoke after 4 years.
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Trump fires National Security Advisor Craig Deare for criticism–radiosilence from the right but when Stanley McChrystal handed in his resignation for comments he made in RS article–the right exploded
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Quote from fw
Quote from DICOM_Dan
this is interesting to me because my perception is that the scales of justice favor people like HRC or David Petraeus. Whereas some nobody might feel the full weight of the US government come down on them.
Unless of course you are gay. Then you get a pass and your espionage conviction disappears into a cloud of smoke after 4 years.
Not really a gay or straight issue. Bradley Manning still served more time than any of the higher ups.
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Now that doesn’t fit in with fw’s alternate facts.
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Quote from fw
Quote from steve511
If I understand the situation correctly, intelligence agencies leaked damning information about General Flynn because he was either 1) plain untrustworthy for lying about contact with Russian agents, 2) too easily blackmailed in the future by the Russians for having lied, 3) a felon for violating the Logan Act, and / or 4) some or all of the above.
The intelligence community drew a line in the sand, the Trump administration crossed it, and got burned.
Time for some housecleaning at the agencies. Preferably to include arrests and prosecutions. Doesn’t matter whether one agrees with Flynn or not, but if folks start breaking the law to further an agenda they need to be locked up.
Quote from Frumious
Leaks and whistleblowers are required in a democracy to keep the people informed. When the law covers up actions by government people contrary to the national interest, it is the duty of government officers to bring it into the sunshine. Laws are not invented to protect the guilty or protect from embarrassment for actions not in the national interest.
Maybe they deserve a patriotic medal.
44 years ago today: [url=http://www.caledonianrecord.com/features/today_in_history/today-in-history-may/article_3314892c-2e96-11e7-a5a7-ebb10a0f92c8.html]The espionage trial of Daniel Ellsberg for leaking the “Pentagon Papers” came to an end as Judge William M. Byrne dismissed all charges, citing government misconduct. [/url]
The New York Times published the papers, exposing the government’s true thoughts about the Vietnam war. Nixon attempted to restrain the media by filing a lawsuit. The Supreme Court ruled against Nixon and in favor of the NYT.
Ellsberg surrendered to authorities in Boston, and admitted that he had given the papers to the press.
[blockquote] “I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision.”
[/blockquote]
Nixon also tried to discredit Ellsberg, abusing government power in trying to do so. This is what led to the eventual dismissal of charges.
Interesting on the ethics of leaks, etc. Echoes of history today yet again.-
[link=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/10/white-house-lawyers-warned-trump-stay-away-from-michael-flynn?utm_source=AOL&utm_medium=readMore&utm_campaign=partner]Trump lawyers warn him to stop trying to ‘reach out’ to Flynn[/link]
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As if things can’t get stranger. Apparently team Trump new Flynn was under FBI investigation before bringing him onboard? Mind you it appeared he tried to push something turkey wanted. Lock him up…..lock him up….lock him up
“Former national security adviser Michael Flynn pushed to delay a plan to retake ISIS stronghold Raqqa that Turkey opposed, according to a new report.
McClatchy reports that former President Obama and his national security adviser Susan Rice informed then president-elect Trump of a Pentagon plan to retake the city of Raqqa, an ISIS stronghold, with the help of Syrian Kurdish forces. Obamas team informed Trump because while the plan would be approved under Obama, it would likely be executed after Trump took office.”
[link=http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/333994-flynn-delayed-isis-attack-plan-that-turkey-opposed-report]http://thehill.com/blogs/…-turkey-opposed-report[/link]
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so they knew–recall Obama people would not let HRC bring Sid Blumenthal on board
Trump can’t sperate from Flynn because Putin wants him imho
folks come on if you were Russia u would want Flynn in there because he could feed Trump info to get us involved in another mid east country while letting Putin rebuild imperial Russia by taking over Ukraine( does Putin even consider them a country)Quote from DICOM_Dan
As if things can’t get stranger. Apparently team Trump new Flynn was under FBI investigation before bringing him onboard? Mind you it appeared he tried to push something turkey wanted. Lock him up…..lock him up….lock him up
“Former national security adviser Michael Flynn pushed to delay a plan to retake ISIS stronghold Raqqa that Turkey opposed, according to a new report.
McClatchy reports that former President Obama and his national security adviser Susan Rice informed then president-elect Trump of a Pentagon plan to retake the city of Raqqa, an ISIS stronghold, with the help of Syrian Kurdish forces. Obamas team informed Trump because while the plan would be approved under Obama, it would likely be executed after Trump took office.”
[link=http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/333994-flynn-delayed-isis-attack-plan-that-turkey-opposed-report]http://thehill.com/blogs/…-turkey-opposed-report[/link]
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so what did Pence know –he was leading the WH transition but oh yes he went back to Indiana to deal with his own e-mail issue
Quote from DICOM_Dan
As if things can’t get stranger. Apparently team Trump new Flynn was under FBI investigation before bringing him onboard? Mind you it appeared he tried to push something turkey wanted. Lock him up…..lock him up….lock him up
“Former national security adviser Michael Flynn pushed to delay a plan to retake ISIS stronghold Raqqa that Turkey opposed, according to a new report.
McClatchy reports that former President Obama and his national security adviser Susan Rice informed then president-elect Trump of a Pentagon plan to retake the city of Raqqa, an ISIS stronghold, with the help of Syrian Kurdish forces. Obamas team informed Trump because while the plan would be approved under Obama, it would likely be executed after Trump took office.”
[link=http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/333994-flynn-delayed-isis-attack-plan-that-turkey-opposed-report]http://thehill.com/blogs/…-turkey-opposed-report[/link]
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Flynn refusing to comply with subpoena
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lock him up–issue an arrest arrent
Quote from dergon
Flynn refusing to comply with subpoena
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[url=http://www.newschannel5.com/news/national/michael-flynn-to-decline-senate-invite-source-says][b]Flynn will decline Senate subpoena, claim his 5th amendment rights[/b][/url]
Former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn will invoke his Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination on Monday as he notifies the Senate Intelligence committee that he will not comply with a subpoena seeking documents.
That’s according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter. The person spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the private interactions between Flynn and the committee.
Legal experts have said Flynn was unlikely to turn over the personal documents without immunity because he would be waiving some of his constitutional protections by doing so. Flynn has previously sought immunity from “unfair prosecution” to cooperate with the committee.
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[url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/22/can-michael-flynn-refuse-to-turn-over-documents-to-congress-yes-but-he-risks-jail/?utm_term=.7e9ebd6c7a85]Flynn’s refusal to comply with document request: Fifth Amendment doesnt have the same level of protection when it comes to documents; he could face jail time[/url]
{T}he Fifth Amendment protects you from making incriminatory comments about yourself but it doesnt protect you from things youve said in the past. Documents are similarly a form of past behavior to which the Fifth Amendment doesnt apply.
The risk to Flynn is that the Senate committee demanding the documents could vote to hold him in contempt. If they were to do so, the full Senate would be asked to weigh in on the matter and, if the Senate agreed to hold Flynn in contempt, the matter would be referred to the U.S. attorneys office in Washington for criminal charges. In other words, Flynn could end up being convicted of a crime for withholding the documents and face prison time regardless of what the documents say.
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On the scale of the questions about Flynn did he improperly lobby on behalf of Turkey? Did he have inappropriate conversations with the Russians during the 2016 campaign? a Senate contempt charge is fairly low. Assuming that Flynns team does refuse to comply with this subpoena, then, they may be making a strategic decision: That the risks of going to jail for contempt are lower than the risks of going to jail if the Senate sees those documents.
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lock him up–what did the son know– and if he pleads the fifth
Quote from dergon
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/22/can-michael-flynn-refuse-to-turn-over-documents-to-congress-yes-but-he-risks-jail/?utm_term=.7e9ebd6c7a85]Flynn’s refusal to comply with document request: Fifth Amendment doesnt have the same level of protection when it comes to documents; he could face jail time[/link]
{T}he Fifth Amendment protects you from making incriminatory comments about yourself but it doesnt protect you from things youve said in the past. Documents are similarly a form of past behavior to which the Fifth Amendment doesnt apply.
The risk to Flynn is that the Senate committee demanding the documents could vote to hold him in contempt. If they were to do so, the full Senate would be asked to weigh in on the matter and, if the Senate agreed to hold Flynn in contempt, the matter would be referred to the U.S. attorneys office in Washington for criminal charges. In other words, Flynn could end up being convicted of a crime for withholding the documents and face prison time regardless of what the documents say.
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On the scale of the questions about Flynn did he improperly lobby on behalf of Turkey? Did he have inappropriate conversations with the Russians during the 2016 campaign? a Senate contempt charge is fairly low. Assuming that Flynns team does refuse to comply with this subpoena, then, they may be making a strategic decision: That the risks of going to jail for contempt are lower than the risks of going to jail if the Senate sees those documents.
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Yet another Flynn failure to disclose …
[url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/flynn-failed-report-foreign-trip-broker-us-russia/story?id=48140879]
[h1]Flynn failed to report foreign trip to broker US-Russia nuclear deal[/url][/h1]Retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn made an unreported trip to the Middle East in 2015 to work on a U.S.-Russian venture in Saudi Arabia before he joined the Trump campaign, possibly having multiple contacts with Saudi officials that he failed to disclose when seeking renewal of his security clearances, according to Democrats who are seeking detailed records of Flynns travels.
Most troubling of all, we have no record of Gen. Flynn identifying on his security clearance renewal application or during his interview with security clearance investigators even a single foreign government he had contact with, wrote Reps. [link=http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/us/elijah-cummings.htm]Elijah Cummings[/link] and [link=http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/us/eliot-engel.htm]Eliot Engel[/link], the ranking members of the House Oversight and Foreign Affairs committees, in a letter published on Monday.
The Democrats have demanded documents related to all of Flynns work on the Saudi nuclear venture, which involved not only a Russian-U.S. effort to construct the nuclear reactors but also a plan to have Arab countries repay the Russians with the purchase of Russian military hardware, the letter says, citing internal documents from companies involved in trying to solidify the deal.
The allegations in the letter appear to compound the legal troubles facing Flynn, [link=http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/donald-trump.htm]President Trump[/link]s first national security adviser, a post that Flynn was forced to give up after reports surfaced alleging he had lied to Vice President Mike Pence about the nature of back-channel discussions he was holding with the Russian ambassador to the U.S., [link=http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/world/sergey-kislyak.htm]Sergey Kislyak[/link].-
One of the senators was quoted today saying something along the lines of the evidence suggests Flynn is cooperating with the FBI.
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Flynn is key—he is in fact if I were Russia would value him more than Trump–come on folks what country would not want a disgruntled American General who knows all the military secrets/ understands military code and provide u with intelligence collected from allies/Israel
–Flynn has a son to protect/provide for--
breaking news in WSJ—attempts to get HRC emails
Imho–I have always felt Americans had to aid Russia in what would be most effective way to meddle
-it is time for the intelligence community and the feds to draw a line in the sand with respect to Americans and Russian money gravy train-
Quote from sentinel lymph node
breaking news in WSJ—attempts to get HRC emails
Imho–I have always felt Americans had to aid Russia in what would be most effective way to meddle
-it is time for the intelligence community and the feds to draw a line in the sand with respect to Americans and Russian money gravy train
Link –
[url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851]
[b]GOP Operative Sought Clinton Emails From Hackers, Implied a Connection to Flynn:[/b][/h1] Peter W. Smith portrayed the former general as an ally in an effort, independent of the Trump campaign, to find personal emails deleted by Hillary Clinton[/url][/h2]Before the 2016 presidential election, a longtime Republican opposition researcher mounted an independent campaign to obtain emails he believed were stolen from Hillary Clintons private server, likely by Russian hackers.
In conversations with members of his circle and with others he tried to recruit to help him, the GOP operative, Peter W. Smith, implied he was working with retired Lt. Gen. Mike Flynn, at the time a senior adviser to then-candidate Donald Trump.
Emails written by Mr. Smith and one of his associates show that his small group considered Mr. Flynn and his consulting company, Flynn Intel Group, to be allies in their quest.
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interesting that this guy is now dead
sorta like the dying Russians
Folks–come on–we know what’s up
this will be the greatest Russian infiltration imho aided by AmericansQuote from dergon
Quote from sentinel lymph node
breaking news in WSJ—attempts to get HRC emails
Imho–I have always felt Americans had to aid Russia in what would be most effective way to meddle
-it is time for the intelligence community and the feds to draw a line in the sand with respect to Americans and Russian money gravy trainLink –
[link=https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851]
[b]GOP Operative Sought Clinton Emails From Hackers, Implied a Connection to Flynn:[/b] Peter W. Smith portrayed the former general as an ally in an effort, independent of the Trump campaign, to find personal emails deleted by Hillary Clinton[/link]Before the 2016 presidential election, a longtime Republican opposition researcher mounted an independent campaign to obtain emails he believed were stolen from Hillary Clintons private server, likely by Russian hackers.
In conversations with members of his circle and with others he tried to recruit to help him, the GOP operative, Peter W. Smith, implied he was working with retired Lt. Gen. Mike Flynn, at the time a senior adviser to then-candidate Donald Trump.
Emails written by Mr. Smith and one of his associates show that his small group considered Mr. Flynn and his consulting company, Flynn Intel Group, to be allies in their quest.
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Quote from sentinel lymph node
interesting that this guy is now dead
sorta like the dying RussiansWell, he was 81.
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This story looks like it had more legs. WSN had some documents typing it to Bannon, KAC, etc…..I don’t think Donald can ever get this Russia conversation. Mueller was adding another prosecutor to his group also.
Meanwhile DJT keeps his feud going with news on Twitter. He should get the boot for not fit for duty.
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what did HRC say in those debates:-temperamentally unfit and if he won it would be like Christmas in Moscow for Putin
so we have Comey ? threat U better hope I don’t have tapes
Mika and Joe better press coverage or National Enquirer will run story
This is blackmail/ low ball sleazy stuff
now leaks to press disparaging McCabe/Comey and Tillerson
–the fish stinks as it rots in the DC swampQuote from DICOM_Dan
This story looks like it had more legs. WSN had some documents typing it to Bannon, KAC, etc…..I don’t think Donald can ever get this Russia conversation. Mueller was adding another prosecutor to his group also.
Meanwhile DJT keeps his feud going with news on Twitter. He should get the boot for not fit for duty.
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OH please –all these Russians dying and clock ticking on people who just happened to be tangled in with 2016 election
Quote from dergon
Quote from sentinel lymph node
interesting that this guy is now dead
sorta like the dying RussiansWell, he was 81.
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[url=http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/345425-mueller-requests-white-house-documents-on-flynn-report]Mueller requests White House documents on Flynn[/url]
Special counsel Robert Mueller’s office has reportedly asked the White House to hand over documents in relation to President Trump’s former national security adviser Michael Flynn.
Mueller is looking into whether Flynn, whose consulting group Flynn Intel Group had worked with a Turkish-American businessman, was secretly paid by the Turkish government during the final months of the presidential campaign, New York Times reported Friday.
The newspaper noted that it is the first known instance of the special counsel, which is probing ties between the Trump campaign and Russia, requesting documents from the White House.[/QUOTE]
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[link=http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/360824-turkish-national-cooperating-with-prosecutors-questions-on-possible]http://thehill.com/blogs/…-questions-on-possible[/link]
Prosecutors may be seeking info on Flynn-Turkey ties from witness: report[/h1]
A Turkish national with ties to Turkish President Recep Erdogan is cooperating with federal prosecutors in a money-laundering case, [link=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/does-cooperating-witness-have-info-flynn-tie-turkey-n821341]NBC News[/link] reported Thursday, citing sources.
Legal experts told NBC News that prosecutors may be looking into any ties between the Turkish government and President Trump’s former national security adviser Mike Flynn.
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so Preet was involved in this guy and he was fired–Trump telling Comey to let Flynn off( imho observing DT behavior if Flynn was to get 15 mill–I am sure DT was going to make sure he got a cut from it–just my ho)
Quote from dergon
[link=http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/360824-turkish-national-cooperating-with-prosecutors-questions-on-possible]http://thehill.com/blogs/…-questions-on-possible[/link]
Prosecutors may be seeking info on Flynn-Turkey ties from witness: report
A Turkish national with ties to Turkish President Recep Erdogan is cooperating with federal prosecutors in a money-laundering case, [link=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/does-cooperating-witness-have-info-flynn-tie-turkey-n821341]NBC News[/link] reported Thursday, citing sources.
Legal experts told NBC News that prosecutors may be looking into any ties between the Turkish government and President Trump’s former national security adviser Mike Flynn.
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Looking more and more like Flynn has flipped and is cooperating with Muelller
1- Trump announced today that he will not be funding Flynns legal bills
2- Flynns attorney announced they will no longer be cooperating with the Trump legal team
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Quote from dergon
Looking more and more like Flynn has flipped and is cooperating with Muelller
1- Trump announced today that he will not be funding Flynns legal bills
2- Flynns attorney announced they will no longer be cooperating with the Trump legal team
Do you think the investigation will be fully completed prior to 2018 midterms?-
Unknown but imho w/ idiots like Don Jr–U wonder if it will take that long–the picture is quite clear here folks-probably started when Don and the 80’s ended (not well)–he never says a bad thing about Putin/Russia–Trump Soho has paid to get rid of the name-
Flynn has a son–we will see in the end who loves their son/kids more
of course the Russian/Trump troll f—ger will appear but #45 ignored the best advice ever given to him( Reince-drop out of this race) and accepted the worst advice to fire Comey because as he says on tape in his own words due to Russia–there is nothing hidden or clever here–quite obviousQuote from jd4540
Quote from dergon
Looking more and more like Flynn has flipped and is cooperating with Muelller
1- Trump announced today that he will not be funding Flynns legal bills
2- Flynns attorney announced they will no longer be cooperating with the Trump legal team
Do you think the investigation will be fully completed prior to 2018 midterms?
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Quote from jd4540
Quote from dergon
Looking more and more like Flynn has flipped and is cooperating with Muelller
1- Trump announced today that he will not be funding Flynns legal bills
2- Flynns attorney announced they will no longer be cooperating with the Trump legal team
Do you think the investigation will be fully completed prior to 2018 midterms?
Don’t know. — That’s about right at my over/under point. Late 2018.-
No, it wont be done by November 2018. There is too much to discover.
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Quote from Frumious
No, it wont be done by November 2018. There is too much to discover.
Certainly a possibility that it continues for years.-
Too many wheels turning, many people in Administration involved. They all have to be investigated & their involvement determined, many likely in court.
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Quote from Frumious
Too many wheels turning, many people in Administration involved. They all have to be investigated & their involvement determined, many likely in court.
So theoretically they could find evidence of collusion 3-4 years into Trumps term? That seems inefficient-
Quote from jd4540
Quote from Frumious
Too many wheels turning, many people in Administration involved. They all have to be investigated & their involvement determined, many likely in court.
So theoretically they could find evidence of collusion 3-4 years into Trumps term? That seems inefficient
If the investigations did continue many years it would likely be because of other crimes outside of collusion…. like financial crimes, money laundering, tax evasion etc … that were discovered during the investigation.
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There’s already evidence of collusion. Just no evidence of criminal wrongdoing related to the collusion … yet.
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Jd, how many years did the investigations last against the Clintons & how many investigator# did Republicans burn through before the finally got Ken Starr & the infamous blue dress. The first several investigators were retired because they kept turning up nothing& their reports said so. Several nothing burgers to use cigarss parlance of today. Several associates were investigated & found guilty of wrongdoing even as nothing criminal was found on the Clintons; Bills criminality consisted of lying about having an affair, nothing else.
So I am not put off by nothing burgers so far, we have miles to go before this case is put to sleep, apologies to Robert Frost.
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Quote from dergon
Certainly a possibility that it continues for years.
As Mueller has a book of signed check blanks drawn on the treasury that he can write to himself, this investigation will continue until his death.
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[h2][b]Flynn Is the Key to the Russia Investigation[/b][/h2]
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/11/24/michael-flynn-is-the-key-to-the-russia-scandal-and-he-may-have-just-flipped-on-trump/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.21702cd48e4c]Paul Waldman[/link]: We should be clear that [link=https://politicalwire.com/2017/11/23/signs-suggest-flynn-cooperating-mueller/]this news[/link] is not definitive proof that Flynn is cooperating with Mueller. It may mean only that he is in the process of negotiating a deal to avoid prosecution, and that deal might or might not involve giving information on other figures in the investigation. But if Flynn is indeed cooperating, Trump is in big trouble.Thats because if Flynn is cooperating, it can only be because he has information to offer Mueller on someone more important than himself. Thats how it works. And who is more important than Flynn? Only a very small number of people. Among those implicated in this whole affair, that group may consist of Jared Kushner and Trump, and thats about it.
Which means we may be getting closer to answering a question Ive been asking for a long time: Why was President Trump so intensely focused on protecting Michael Flynn?
[link=https://twitter.com/PreetBharara/status/933928882318737408]Preet Bhahara[/link]: If youre dead to rights, flipping on others and cooperating with the prosecution is the only sane and rational move. Also, prosecutors accept cooperation only if you can provide substantial assistance. Higher up in the food chain.
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With 24 hours to go before sentencing:
[link=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/17/us/politics/flynn-turkey-bijan-kian.html]Former Michael Flynn Business Associates Indicted in Turkey Lobbying Case[/link][image]https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.flyertalk.com-vbulletin/1200×293/duoo_6fv4ae4dd1_c313d81be0d3b255e910b621114badc5b82eee81.jpg[/image]
[image]https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.flyertalk.com-vbulletin/1200×367/duopm1muwaadx_8_2d44e0be95bf0967e65d91677fb3a1a8a7e6bf44.jpg[/image][link=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g6Ihim1UCjEX5g_CJpSY2-aJbbg-qPGN/preview]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g6Ihim1UCjEX5g_CJpSY2-aJbbg-qPGN/preview[/link]
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Quote from dergon
Quote from jd4540
Quote from dergon
Looking more and more like Flynn has flipped and is cooperating with Muelller
1- Trump announced today that he will not be funding Flynns legal bills
2- Flynns attorney announced they will no longer be cooperating with the Trump legal team
Do you think the investigation will be fully completed prior to 2018 midterms?
Don’t know. — That’s about right at my over/under point. Late 2018.
Sentencing tomorrow …. late 2018 …. at least for Flynn 🙂
[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/421796-mueller-releases-memo-detailing-2017-fbi-interview-with-flynn]https://thehill.com/homen…i-interview-with-flynn[/link]Mueller releases memo detailing 2017 FBI interview with Flynn[/h1]
[link=https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5633260/12-17-18-Redacted-Flynn-Interview-302.pdf]https://assets.documentcl…lynn-Interview-302.pdf[/link]
Special counsel [link=https://thehill.com/people/robert-mueller]Robert Mueller[/link] on Monday night released a memo detailing then-national security adviser Michael Flynn’s interview with FBI agents, in which Flynn repeatedly lied about his contacts with former Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak.
The FBI officials who interviewed Flynn, including former agent Peter Strzok, gave him multiple opportunities to describe his conversations with Kislyak. Flynn denied that he spoke to the then-Russian ambassador about sanctions.
[/QUOTE]
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Seems the judge ordered redacted interviews to be released. I seems like the judge might say aw schuck it to the sweetheart deal and possibly railroad him.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Seems the judge ordered redacted interviews to be released. I seems like the judge might say aw schuck it to the sweetheart deal and possibly railroad him.
Yep. If I read this right then you might be correct
[img]https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.flyertalk.com-vbulletin/1009×781/duqaripwkaahgbf_566c51631878286f4fdf058d1bb584de28a4ef54.jpg[/img]-
Trump wishes Flynn, “Good luck!” in sentencing hearing.
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[link=http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/michael-flynns-judge-destroys-trumps-conspiracy-theory.html]Jonathan Chait[/link]: [b]What We Still Dont Know About Michael Flynn[/b][b]
[/b]
Two more mysteries remain. The first is just what crimes by Flynn Muellers prosecutors found. The second, even larger, is what Flynn gave them on Trump. If his offenses were [link=https://politicalwire.com/2018/12/18/quote-of-the-day-2122/]as serious as Sullivan indicated[/link], and Mueller still suggested he skip prison, it stands to reason that the evidence he turned over concerning other figures is devastating.Flynn was not set up. He was charged for committing serious crimes. And he is probably going to escape prison because the crimes committed by the people he worked with and for are even more serious.
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Looks like his attorneys are asking for a sentencing delay. Which makes me thinks perhaps he actually held back some knowledge to use as leverage.
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Jd, how many years did the investigations last against the Clintons & how many investigators did Republicans burn through before the finally got Ken Starr & the infamous blue dress. The first several investigators were retired because they kept turning up nothing & their reports said so. Several nothing burgers to use cigarss parlance of today. Several associates were investigated & found guilty of wrongdoing even as nothing criminal was found on the Clintons; Bills criminality consisted of lying about having an affair, nothing else. And this investigation seem like there is much more substance to it than a single small deal about real estate. There are a lot of stones to overturn about much more substantial wrongdoings. Including interfering in an election by a hostile foreign power.
So I am not put off by nothing burgers so far, we have miles to go before this case is put to sleep, apologies to Robert Frost.
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looking at CNN with John Dean and another lawyer–this one guy had got a deal for his client and he said deals are not given out like Christmas candy–the basic tenet for a deal is u got to roll on someone higher up( ???Kushner/Don, Jr etc)
little Donnie thinks he has his pardon deal–can’t wait to see what NY state does if 45 pulls that card -
Quote from Frumious
Jd, how many years did the investigations last against the Clintons & how many investigators did Republicans burn through before the finally got Ken Starr & the infamous blue dress. The first several investigators were retired because they kept turning up nothing & their reports said so. Several nothing burgers to use cigarss parlance of today. Several associates were investigated & found guilty of wrongdoing even as nothing criminal was found on the Clintons; Bills criminality consisted of lying about having an affair, nothing else. And this investigation seem like there is much more substance to it than a single small deal about real estate. There are a lot of stones to overturn about much more substantial wrongdoings. Including interfering in an election by a hostile foreign power.
So I am not put off by nothing burgers so far, we have miles to go before this case is put to sleep, apologies to Robert Frost.
Not complaining from a partisan standpoint. Just seems silly that you may find someone guilty of a crime (collusion) after they have already enjoyed the fruits (3-4 years as POTUS) of their crime. For example, Trump is filling the most federal judiciary vacancies in 40 year, will these be undone if there is collusion?-
if he just follows the money–from the 80’s/-90 million dollar deal for Florida home not worth that to a Russian oligarch
Behind every great fortune there is a crime.
Honore de Balzac
I don’t trust society to protect us, I have no intention of placing my fate in the hands of men whose only qualification is that they managed to con a block of people to vote for them.
[<font]Mario Puzo-The Godfather
Quote from jd4540
Quote from Frumious
Jd, how many years did the investigations last against the Clintons & how many investigators did Republicans burn through before the finally got Ken Starr & the infamous blue dress. The first several investigators were retired because they kept turning up nothing & their reports said so. Several nothing burgers to use cigarss parlance of today. Several associates were investigated & found guilty of wrongdoing even as nothing criminal was found on the Clintons; Bills criminality consisted of lying about having an affair, nothing else. And this investigation seem like there is much more substance to it than a single small deal about real estate. There are a lot of stones to overturn about much more substantial wrongdoings. Including interfering in an election by a hostile foreign power.
So I am not put off by nothing burgers so far, we have miles to go before this case is put to sleep, apologies to Robert Frost.
Not complaining from a partisan standpoint. Just seems silly that you may find someone guilty of a crime (collusion) after they have already enjoyed the fruits (3-4 years as POTUS) of their crime
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Silly?
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Quote from Frumious
Silly?
I may be misunderstanding this whole issue. I was under the impression that Mueller was investigating criminal conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia (and their interference/influence over the election which benefited Trump and got him unfairly elected). If it takes Mueller more time to figure this out than Trump actually gets to serve as POTUS, then what’s the point? Will Trump’s (limited) accomplishments be undone? Will Gorsuch be sent home? Where’s the punishment and justice? If an olympic athlete uses PEDs to cheat/win medals and is busted, they lose their medals (and endorsements). Very few really care if this happens 10 years after they won their medals and earned their cash-
So if I steal a large amount of $ from a bank but spend it all before I am captured & sentenced years later, whats the point since I spent the $ already?
If someone is directly harmed or dead due to my past illegal actions, whats the point if all the harm cant be undone?
Is that the sole purpose of justice? If it cant be undone, why bother with a silly effort of investigations & convictions?
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Or Harvey Weinstein, should investigations stop because, whats the point, the harm he did to others cant be undone?
Or the recent life conviction of Ratko Mladic? Silly & what’s the point since those murdered can not be returned to life?
I do not understand your position at all jd.
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Quote from Frumious
So if I steal a large amount of $ from a bank but spend it all before I am captured & sentenced years later, whats the point since I spent the $ already?
If someone is directly harmed or dead due to my past illegal actions, whats the point if all the harm cant be undone?
Is that the sole purpose of justice? If it cant be undone, why bother with a silly effort of investigations & convictions?
You would be placed in jail and lose something more important than $, you would lose your time on this planet as a free person. Additionally by being in jail, you would no longer be in a position to steal again. Also any assets purchased by the $ that you stole would likely be confiscated.
If you harm/kill someone, you either serve jail time (preventing you from further crime while losing your freedom) or you potentially lose your own life on death row.
If I was suspected of doing something illegal/unethical in order to land a promotion in a private sector job which gave me immense power to make important decisions, I would imagine that the promotion would be put on hold until the matter was fully investigated, particularly if the investigation was going to take years. What private company is going to say we think that you may have unfairly landed this promotion but we are going to let you do your thing until we figure this all out
If Trump can illegally collude with a foreign government and unfairly win an election but still get to serve as POTUS and potentially make some really important decisions that can have long-term consequnces (such as SCOTUS appointees, tax reform, declare war on NK etc), what exactly is the deterrence that would stop some other power hungry individual from doing the same? The take home message is that this person can get want they want, profoundly shape policy for years to come while it takes several years for the govt to potentially catch them
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There are many goals of a justice system.
Reparation is only one of them. Some harms can not be undone. There is no outcome that will magically wipe clean the damage of Trump and the Trump Presidency and “set right” (whatever “right” may be) the past.
Even if Mueller would have begun work immediately as soon as Trump was elected and would have worked at lightning pace to finish in October 2017 the only result for Trump himself would be to undergo the political process of impeachment. That wouldn’t happen right now no matter how fast the Mueller team worked.
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But that doesn’t change the need for and the importance of the investigation.
Most importantly it should set the record straight on exactly what happened and to what extent and in great detail so that our nation can use that information to take steps to prevent future similar occurrences.
Second, it should punish people who undertook criminal activity related to the investigation so as to act as a deterrent. This is one of the main reasons people are punished in a justice sytem
Third, it should exist in and of itself to show that the US is still bound by rule of law.
Fourth, it should punish criminal activity discovered during the course of the core investigation to let future campaigns know that hiring on criminals to work on behalf of political organizations is unwise and will do more long term harm than good to the candidate.
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one thing for certain if DT pardons anyone–the GOP will need a nominee for 2020
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and to this silly spin–Flynn was fired by #44 WH and DT was told not to hire him so Trump team owns him
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is Kushner about to resign–interesting story in WaPo of shrinking role/-? timing since Flynn is reported to have flip—45 attempting to distance himself????????????????
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Quote from dergon
There are many goals of a justice system.
Reparation is only one of them. Some harms can not be undone. There is no outcome that will magically wipe clean the damage of Trump and the Trump Presidency and “set right” (whatever “right” may be) the past.
Even if Mueller would have begun work immediately as soon as Trump was elected and would have worked at lightning pace to finish in October 2017 the only result for Trump himself would be to undergo the political process of impeachment. That wouldn’t happen right now no matter how fast the Mueller team worked.
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But that doesn’t change the need for and the importance of the investigation.
Most importantly it should set the record straight on exactly what happened and to what extent and in great detail so that our nation can use that information to take steps to prevent future similar occurrences.
Second, it should punish people who undertook criminal activity related to the investigation so as to act as a deterrent. This is one of the main reasons people are punished in a justice sytem
Third, it should exist in and of itself to show that the US is still bound by rule of law.
Fourth, it should punish criminal activity discovered during the course of the core investigation to let future campaigns know that hiring on criminals to work on behalf of political organizations is unwise and will do more long term harm than good to the candidate.
Doesn’t Mueller have the best working with him and basically unlimited financial resources? What’s taking so long? I was under the impression that the goal was to show collusion and thereby confirm that Trump is an illegitimate president (while Trump is still in office) and get him out of office (“impeach 45”) since he did not fairly earn it
It seems like criminals are typically two or three steps ahead of everyone else when it comes to these types of activities. When it take an investigation years to figure things out, future criminals are also learning what future mistakes to avoid step by step
If Trump illegally colluded to get elected POTUS and was still able to serve and make some drastic policy changes that had long lasting and far-reaching repercussions, what is the downside that would deter other power hungry people from attempting the same? That some lower levels get sacrificed? I guess I mistakenly looked at this investigation as the typical criminal investigation where there is an urgency to reach the truth in order to remedy the situation and punish the criminal. I didn’t realize that a potentially guilty Trump could carry on for a couple of years and potentially enact his agenda without any negative repercussions-
I hear u on the glacial pace–look at Mulvaney choice–he can have devastating effects while we await —Russia knew just play up racial division–the racist sheep will follow
Quote from jd4540
Quote from dergon
There are many goals of a justice system.
Reparation is only one of them. Some harms can not be undone. There is no outcome that will magically wipe clean the damage of Trump and the Trump Presidency and “set right” (whatever “right” may be) the past.
Even if Mueller would have begun work immediately as soon as Trump was elected and would have worked at lightning pace to finish in October 2017 the only result for Trump himself would be to undergo the political process of impeachment. That wouldn’t happen right now no matter how fast the Mueller team worked.
_____
But that doesn’t change the need for and the importance of the investigation.
Most importantly it should set the record straight on exactly what happened and to what extent and in great detail so that our nation can use that information to take steps to prevent future similar occurrences.
Second, it should punish people who undertook criminal activity related to the investigation so as to act as a deterrent. This is one of the main reasons people are punished in a justice sytem
Third, it should exist in and of itself to show that the US is still bound by rule of law.
Fourth, it should punish criminal activity discovered during the course of the core investigation to let future campaigns know that hiring on criminals to work on behalf of political organizations is unwise and will do more long term harm than good to the candidate.
Doesn’t Mueller have the best working with him and basically unlimited financial resources? What’s taking so long? I was under the impression that the goal was to show collusion and thereby confirm that Trump is an illegitimate president (while Trump is still in office) and get him out of office (“impeach 45”) since he did not fairly earn it
It seems like criminals are typically two or three steps ahead of everyone else when it comes to these types of activities. When it take an investigation years to figure things out, future criminals are also learning what future mistakes to avoid step by step
If Trump illegally colluded to get elected POTUS and was still able to serve and make some drastic policy changes that had long lasting and far-reaching repercussions, what is the downside that would deter other power hungry people from attempting the same? That some lower levels get sacrificed? I guess I mistakenly looked at this investigation as the typical criminal investigation where there is an urgency to reach the truth in order to remedy the situation and punish the criminal. I didn’t realize that a potentially guilty Trump could carry on for a couple of years and potentially enact his agenda without any negative repercussions
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Unfortunately jd,
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
Mark Twain
It takes time to expose lies especially to those who side with the lies. Or as KellyAnn puts it, alternative facts. If u are invested in the lie as a supporter, you dont want to let go.
Its why elections are important, especially when an idiot is elected along with an idiot Congress. A lot of harm can be donewhen people stay home.
How would you propose it be otherwise?
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Quote from Frumious
Unfortunately jd,
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
Mark Twain
It takes time to expose lies especially to those who side with the lies. Or as KellyAnn puts it, alternative facts. If u are invested in the lie as a supporter, you dont want to let go.
Its why elections are important, especially when an idiot is elected along with an idiot Congress. A lot of harm can be donewhen people stay home.
How would you propose it be otherwise?
Guess it is what it is!…some of my expectations of a quicker investigation likely stemmed from the initial non-stop news coverage where everyday there seemed to be a new development but seems like this is going to be a marathon-
September 15, 1972 – First indictments in the Watergate scandal.
August 9, 1974 – Nixon resigns.
That’s almost 2 full years.
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Whitewater was 4-5 yrs
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[h2][link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michael-flynns-role-in-middle-eastern-nuclear-project-could-compound-legal-issues/2017/11/26/51ce7ec8-ce18-11e7-81bc-c55a220c8cbe_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-more-top-stories_flynnsaudi-835am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.9382c98e55f5]Washington Post[/link] : Flynns Role In Nuclear Project Could Compound Problems[/h2]
In June 2015, retired lieutenant general Michael Flynn took a little-noticed trip to Egypt and Israel, paid for by a U.S. company he was advising. The company hoped to build more than two dozen nuclear plants in the region in partnership with Russian interests.”Flynns quiet involvement in that project and his failure to disclose his ties to the effort could complicate the legal issues facing President Trumps former national security adviser, who has signaled he may be willing to cooperate with special counsel Robert Mueller.
Congressional Democrats say that Flynn may have violated federal law by failing to disclose the Middle Eastern trip in his security clearance renewal application in 2016. A top House Republican declined the Democrats request for a congressional inquiry but referred the allegations to the special counsel.
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[h2][link=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/michael-flynns-lawyer-meets-members-special-counsels-team/story?id=51412187]ABC News[/link] : Flynns Lawyer Meets with Special Counsels Team[/h2]
The lawyer for President Trumps former national security adviser Michael Flynn met Monday morning with members of Special Counsel Robert Muellers team, the latest indication that both sides are discussing a possible plea deal.That process would typically include a series of off-the-record discussions in which prosecutors lay out in detail for Flynn and his lawyers the fruits of their investigation into his activities. Prosecutors would also provide Flynn an opportunity to offer whats called a proffer, detailing what information, if any, he has that could implicate others in wrongdoing.
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Mulvaney[b][/b][i][/i][u][/u][strike][/strike] has already stopped checks that were suppose to be sent to Vets/consumers–a glacial pace is not helpful w/CFPB–it is quite clear that English should have that job–let’s see what a judge does
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Flynn spoke with Russian Ambassador that don’t be worried about Pres. Obama’s sanctions and Congress voted for sanctions but still sanctions have not been imposed so ???Flynn’s promise to the Russians has been fulfilled
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Flynn to plead guilty.
Again it’s the “plead guilty to one count of false statements”.
That pretty much means Mueller has him rolled up the same way he did Popodopolous, one count as long as he cooperates fully.
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[url=http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/362759-trumps-russian-winter-grows-colder-with-flynn-plea-deal]
Trumps Russian winter grows colder with Flynn plea deal[/url][/h1]
With Flynn pleading guilty to lying to FBI investigators, a relatively modest offense, the odds are high that he has provided, or will soon provide, powerful evidence against others.
President Trump is facing a cold Russian winter with more revelations, more indictments and more plea bargains involving additional suspects, perpetrators and witnesses in the Russia investigations. With the plea deal reached with Flynn, Trumps cold Russian winter will now grow colder.
Attention will now turn to other suspects and alleged crimes, especially obstruction of justice.
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I’ve seen speculation that they had his kid dead to rights also which is another reason he’s flipped (other than him being dead to rights also). Should be an interesting 2018 in politics.
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Lock him up!
Lock him up!-
And kaboom….
ABC news reporting that Flynn will testify that Trump himself directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians.-
[link=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/michael-flynn-charged-making-false-statements-fbi-documents/story?id=50849354]ABC News[/link]: Flynns plea signals the former top adviser to President Trump is now cooperating with Special Counsel Robert Muellers team. A brief statement released by Muellers team Friday morning does not say what information Flynn has provided the government as part of the deal, but people familiar with the agreement told ABC News Friday he has made a decision to assist investigators.
The general told confidants about his decision to plead guilty in the last 24 hours, according to people close to Flynn, who say the former adviser feels President Trump has abandoned him and has agreed to answer questions about the president or anyone else.
Perhaps most important, [link=https://twitter.com/abc/status/936628560374071296]Brian Ross[/link] reports that Flynn is prepared to testify that as a candidate, Trump directed him to make contact with the Russians.
[link=http://live.reuters.com/Event/Live_US_Politics?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social]Reuters[/link]: Prosecutors say Flynn was told by the senior member of Trump transition team to reach out to other countries to influence the U.N. vote to delay or defeat the resolution
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Nothing burger
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The big question is….. what distraction will trump try to start to focus the attention away from this
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Just pled guilty.
Nothing burger. Next on the menu, more in the Administration.
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