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Envision radiologists
I wanted to see if there are any Envision radiologists out there who could comment about this recent bankruptcy news this past week.
Is there a real possibility that Envision could leave some hospitals w/o coverage during the day or night?
And is there a real chance that radiologists could have their regular payroll impacted?
Is anyone hearing from Envision rads that are looking to bail out before it gets even worse?
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47 Replies
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I heard they are primarily in the fetal position and only eating peanut butter jelly sandwiches in this dark, unpredictable time. And off brand peanut butter too.
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Envision lost most of Tampa hospitals that they paid Dr Norsoph a pretty penny for.
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[link]https://apple.news/AdC811NtMSIaHmJCZ-VMfMQ[/link]
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Basically envision will go bankrupt
Someone or some entity will buy the radiology portion
Some investors lose money
Rads may be unaffected – hard to tell
The game is somewhat rigged
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Quote from Chirorad84
Basically envision will go bankrupt
Someone or some entity will buy the radiology portion
Some investors lose money
Rads may be unaffected – hard to tell
The game is somewhat rigged
Most Tampa rads are working for RP now, Envision still holding on to Advent health for now though.
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Does anyone know if any rads lost jobs in that area?
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Or did they just move from one pimp
To the other pimp?-
Quote from Chirorad84
Or did they just move from one pimp
To the other pimp?Yes. unilateral move to RP.
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Now they get some nice funny money shares. Im sure thats how RP played it- heyyyy were gonna keep your salary the same and give you these amazing shares that vest in 5 years, wink wink.
Most of those PE sites are full of sellouts and any freshblood they get is typically the lazy unambitious type or of below average quality. If I did PE, I would drag my feet and read slowly. Id take 8000 RVU job for 400k and 10 weeks vacay.
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Pimps and hos
The real question I guess is what happens when Rad partners go belly-up in a few years
Does another pimp show up?
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Anyone here follow the Facebook radiologist group? There have been a few recent posts detailing how others have had to deal with bankruptcies and what to expect.
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Reading a WSJ story
Envision employs more than 25,000 clinicians delivering care to 32 million patients annually. That includes roughly 800 radiologists as of last year reading 10 million studies, alongside emergency medicine specialists, anesthesiologists, hospitalists and neonatologists.
Sounds like radiology is a small part of their overall business operations
I assumed it was a much bigger player in radiology
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Look up this famous truism:
“”Last Flea To Jump Off A Dead Dog”” means Oncologists (sometimes other disciplines) who seem unable to let people die with dignity
Needs to be updated and changed to the following:
means Radiologists (sometimes other disciplines) who seem unable to let bankrupt organizations disappear and go away with all their hard-earned money
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Best case scenario- this becomes good for Radiologists
Worst case scenario- contract just changed hands to another corporate group
Plenty of jobs available and plenty of studies to be read hopefully any younger rads arent out of work too long
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The biggest issue seemed to be having to get a tail that was supposed to be paid by the bankrupt territory. Quotes for some were very high.
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So basically anyone who has worked for them
Even as a locum potentially on the hook for the tail -
Then when they join Rad partners they get to get screwed again in 2 more years when they go Belly up
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My understanding is that the physician non-compete agreement is considered an “asset” of a bankrupt company. The scavenger finance guys who pick through the dead body would try to sell this “asset” to someone else presumably for pennies on the dollar.
In theory, a Rad or any doc could be sold off like slave labor ties to a non-compete to the next Corp outfit.
Telerad obviously does provide a way to get out from under such a non-compete however, and the hot Rad market is very helpful.
Perhaps the Rads could buy their own non-competes also.
The Corps really thrive in a tough Rad market, where they have max leverage over the indentured Rads. -
Dont most people have outs in their contracts 60-90 days no cause or immediate for cause
Also if they have a contract and the group doesnt fulfill their end ie miss a paycheck or cut salaries or promised benefits Im pretty sure that nullifies the contract including non- competes
At least thats how it is my state
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So basically if the company does go
Bankrupt be very Leary of signing and new documents -
If Im a group and the company goes under I would just negotiate a buyout of my own no compete at massive discount and reform the group as a traditional PP.
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I see your point
If the group goes under and doesnt honor their part of the contract then that contract becomes null and void including the non-compete
Im no legal expert but thats how it has been explained to me in the past by my original contract lawyer
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So the second they miss a payroll you can likely reform the group. Easy to get the contracts back from the hospital from a bankrupt company.
I think stuff like this has happened before in other specialties, anesthesia I think
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Have a close friend who went through a bankrupt group in a right to work state. Even though the group was bankrupt and not paying him, they let him know he would be sued if he worked anywhere in town. His non-compete was an asset, even in a state where they’re not enofrceable. Its unfair and he would (I’m assuming) win the lawsuit, but until the lawsuit is over he isn’t going to be hired. Even if hired, the group can ask for a judge to stop it. How you think it’d be fair isn’t how it works. Moral of the story is don’t sign a non-compete that would put you in a position you don’t want to be in.
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With the rise of telerad however, these noncompete clauses are meaningless.
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They lost all of Ellis’s contracts in the West Florida Division. The deal was inked last year and all of those agreements went to RadPartners as a Division-driven directive. From what I understand Ellis received north of 80-million dollars and his radiologists and administrators received ZERO!
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Quote from Joker33647
They lost all of Ellis’s contracts in the West Florida Division. The deal was inked last year and all of those agreements went to RadPartners as a Division-driven directive. From what I understand Ellis received north of 80-million dollars and his radiologists and administrators received ZERO!
I think a few older rads were partners.
80 million sounds high. 40 rads*100,000 profit per rad per year, 4 mill profit per year. Maybe less profit, some rads were making 500k
many were 350k, then 375k, then 400k, then supposedly partner.
Patrick didn’t get anything from what I hear.-
Knowing what I know about hospital administration I would never buy a hospital based radiology practice- particularly in Tampa.
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That is incorrect there was one partner, Ellis Norsoph. AllegiantMD was a pyramid scheme – he owned Allegiant and the billing company (Nova). Below that there was Florida Imaging Associates and that company employed the radiologists that is the company that the radiologists were “partnered” into. As I recall it was a two year partnership track, 350 Yr 1, 400 Yr 2 and 500 Yr 3 with 8/10/12 weeks of vacation respectively. The point is zero money ever flowed into Florida Imaging Associates – all of the money flowed into AllegiantMD or the billing company. At the local level he established a corporate entity (practice) and those practices billed for the radiologists services through a physician lease agreement with Florida Imaging Associates. As I said, Ellis’s billing company did 100% of the billing and Allegiant did 100% of the “management.” Money flowed through the local practices, into Florida Imaging Associates and then into AllegiantMD and Nova. End result – the radiologists were nothing more than phantom partners with no voice or vote and Ellis got 100% of the pie! From what I heard he may have shared a bit of the pie (hundreds of thousands, not millions of dollars) with two older guys and everyone else got sold to Envision.
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Boomer radiologists are truly the worst. Ellis is the epitome of that generation. Looking at public records he’s a Republican donor to another known scam artist named Rick Scott (now Senator of Florida) who was involved in of one the biggest health care fraud cause in the US.
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Quote from bluedeep
Boomer radiologists are truly the worst. Ellis is the epitome of that generation. Looking at public records he’s a Republican donor to another known scam artist named Rick Scott (now Senator of Florida) who was involved in of one the biggest health care fraud cause in the US.
This is going to be an intemperate message. Oh well.
I am sick to death of stuff like “Boomer radiologists are truly the worst”. It is the worst form of “-ism” = which is to say you observe some person who is unethical and choose one characteristic of that person, of which there are many… like skin color, gender, age, nationality, height, weight …. Then you write some totally over the top gross generalization that slanders every member. If this were about race, you would be scorched.How about addressing a characteristic that is more to the point, rather than age. Like – “unethical radiologists should be removed from practices”? Because when your thinking is so obviously shallow, lacking nuance, and unsophisticated, who would have an interest in listening to what you say?
Beyond that, when you choose one charateristic, it blinds you to the more pertinent characteristics. The year of birth has no more relevance to their ethics than does their astrological sign. The ETHICS are the important variable here. If you concentrate on age, you will be caught off guard when someone of a different age does it to you.
FWIW – I am a boomer. My group was commandeered by Gen-x’ers who sold us out. The Boomers in the group had no interest in selling out, we wanted to keep it a traditional group, handing over the reins when we retired to a new generation. Instead, we were pushed out and the Gen-xers stole the group.
What do you do with this?
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Quote from Phil Shaffer
Quote from bluedeep
Boomer radiologists are truly the worst. Ellis is the epitome of that generation. Looking at public records he’s a Republican donor to another known scam artist named Rick Scott (now Senator of Florida) who was involved in of one the biggest health care fraud cause in the US.
This is going to be an intemperate message. Oh well.
I am sick to death of stuff like “Boomer radiologists are truly the worst”. It is the worst form of “-ism” = which is to say you observe some person who is unethical and choose one characteristic of that person, of which there are many… like skin color, gender, age, nationality, height, weight …. Then you write some totally over the top gross generalization that slanders every member. If this were about race, you would be scorched.How about addressing a characteristic that is more to the point, rather than age. Like – “unethical radiologists should be removed from practices”? Because when your thinking is so obviously shallow, lacking nuance, and unsophisticated, who would have an interest in listening to what you say?
Beyond that, when you choose one charateristic, it blinds you to the more pertinent characteristics. The year of birth has no more relevance to their ethics than does their astrological sign. The ETHICS are the important variable here. If you concentrate on age, you will be caught off guard when someone of a different age does it to you.
FWIW – I am a boomer. My group was commandeered by Gen-x’ers who sold us out. The Boomers in the group had no interest in selling out, we wanted to keep it a traditional group, handing over the reins when we retired to a new generation. Instead, we were pushed out and the Gen-xers stole the group.
What do you do with this?
A certain class of individuals fashions effigies to throw stones at. -their way of “understanding” a complex world.
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Quote from Phil Shaffer
Quote from bluedeep
Boomer radiologists are truly the worst. Ellis is the epitome of that generation. Looking at public records he’s a Republican donor to another known scam artist named Rick Scott (now Senator of Florida) who was involved in of one the biggest health care fraud cause in the US.
This is going to be an intemperate message. Oh well.
I am sick to death of stuff like “Boomer radiologists are truly the worst”. It is the worst form of “-ism” = which is to say you observe some person who is unethical and choose one characteristic of that person, of which there are many… like skin color, gender, age, nationality, height, weight …. Then you write some totally over the top gross generalization that slanders every member. If this were about race, you would be scorched.How about addressing a characteristic that is more to the point, rather than age. Like – “unethical radiologists should be removed from practices”? Because when your thinking is so obviously shallow, lacking nuance, and unsophisticated, who would have an interest in listening to what you say?
Beyond that, when you choose one charateristic, it blinds you to the more pertinent characteristics. The year of birth has no more relevance to their ethics than does their astrological sign. The ETHICS are the important variable here. If you concentrate on age, you will be caught off guard when someone of a different age does it to you.
FWIW – I am a boomer. My group was commandeered by Gen-x’ers who sold us out. The Boomers in the group had no interest in selling out, we wanted to keep it a traditional group, handing over the reins when we retired to a new generation. Instead, we were pushed out and the Gen-xers stole the group.
What do you do with this?
I agree with you, Gen’xers are just as bad as boomers. They’re both greedy and selfish generations who sold out the future of medicine and radiology to private equity.
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I enjoyed my time in Tampa. Did I make money, no. Would I go back, no. Much to the chagrin of my spouse, I have reverted back to working in horrible places.
I work in low places
Where the whiskey drowns and the beer chases my blues away
And I’ll be OK-
I only know of two people that made money in Tampa – Ellis Norsoph (AllegiantMD) and Rhonda… (Sunshine Radiology). Oh yeah Radiology Associates of Tampa killed it in their sale to RadPartners I hear! I like living and working in the ghetto, it is a better class of people than what I found in Tampa. I’m still in purgatory from my Tampa 10-year stint.
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I work with several boomer Rads and they are fine.
In fact, they are solid partners and never screwed me despite ample opportunities.
One thing I noticed is that they are extremely paranoid. They always are looking over their shoulders thinking someone is going to screw them or steal the contract etc.
One boomer told me this is due to coming out in the 90s when apparently the job market was extremely rough.
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I will say this – Good old Ellis employed some of the best and most talented radiologists I have ever met. So why did they work for him and why were they forced to read 120+ mixed modality cases per 9-hour shift and 200+ cases in two 12-hour weekend shifts without a lunch break or bathroom break? Because when the guy founded his original practice, Tampa Bay Radiology Consultants, a radiologist couldn’t find a job. His employment agreements were designed to keep “his” radiologists as indentured servants and people either signed or they kept looking for work. Every radiologist in that practice worked their asses off while Ellis sat in his ivory tower watching TV, eating and drinking. Ellis always said “If you can’t be good, be lucky.” He was lucky enough to be awarded his first contract (UCH which later became Advent and which eventually kicked him out) at a time when radiologists were desperate. With God as my witness, I not only did everything that I could do to protect the radiologists at AllegiantMD/ Florida Imaging Associates/ Tampa Bay Radiology in the best way that I could given the limitations imposed on me by my boss, but also that had I known then what I know now, I absolutely NEVER would have agreed to work for him. I was guilty by association and in many ways, I still am.
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Quote from Joker33647
I will say this – Good old Ellis employed some of the best and most talented radiologists I have ever met. So why did they work for him and why were they forced to read 120+ mixed modality cases per 9-hour shift and 200+ cases in two 12-hour weekend shifts without a lunch break or bathroom break? Because when theuy founded his original practice, Tampa Bay Radiology Consultants, a radiologist couldn’t find a job. His employment agreements were designed to keep “his” radiologists as indentured servants and people either signed or they kept looking for work. Every radiologist in that practice worked their asses off while Ellis sat in his ivory tower watching TV, eating and drinking. Ellis always said “If you can’t be good, be lucky.” He was lucky enough to be awarded his first contract (UCH which later became Advent and which eventually kicked him out) at a time when radiologists were desperate. With God as my witness, I not only did everything that I could do to protect the radiologists at AllegiantMD/ Florida Imaging Associates/ Tampa Bay Radiology in the best way that I could given the limitations imposed on me by my boss, but also that had I known then what I know now, I absolutely NEVER would have agreed to work for him. I was guilty by association and in many ways, I still am.
Yes. Great bunch of rads. I enjoyed working with them. Interesting insight into how Norsoph got started building his kingdom.
Wresting control of the nascent Tampa Bay Radiology Consultants group was the lynchpin of his success. The Radiology job market handed him all the rads he needed after that. Still hard to survive in such a cut throat place- I tip my hat to Norsoph for surviving and thriving.
Always better to be lucky than good in this field and maybe in life in general. -
Life, age, failures and successes alike have taught me a few very important things… when you are humble, honest, kind and fair you don’t need luck because the success generally follows. Sure there are times when things are out of your control, when you inherit someone else’s mess and when regardless of what you do, success is not in the cards. For me, that is ok because at this point in my life, sleeping well at night and enjoying my family without being absent all of the time is what matters the most. I never intentionally caused anyone any harm. Was I perfect? Absolutely not. Did I learn and grow from my mistakes? Yes. So for now, screw Ellis – he already got more attention than he deserves on this thread.
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Quote from Joker33647
Life, age, failures and successes alike have taught me a few very important things… when you are humble, honest, kind and fair you don’t need luck because the success generally follows. Sure there are times when things are out of your control, when you inherit someone else’s mess and when regardless of what you do, success is not in the cards. For me, that is ok because at this point in my life, sleeping well at night and enjoying my family without being absent all of the time is what matters the most. I never intentionally caused anyone any harm. Was I perfect? Absolutely not. Did I learn and grow from my mistakes? Yes. So for now, screw Ellis – he already got more attention than he deserves on this thread.
At least I got to read whatever I wanted with Norsoph- as long as it was a lot. Kept life interesting.
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Quote from Joker33647
That is incorrect there was one partner, Ellis Norsoph. AllegiantMD was a pyramid scheme – he owned Allegiant and the billing company (Nova). Below that there was Florida Imaging Associates and that company employed the radiologists that is the company that the radiologists were “partnered” into. As I recall it was a two year partnership track, 350 Yr 1, 400 Yr 2 and 500 Yr 3 with 8/10/12 weeks of vacation respectively. The point is zero money ever flowed into Florida Imaging Associates – all of the money flowed into AllegiantMD or the billing company. At the local level he established a corporate entity (practice) and those practices billed for the radiologists services through a physician lease agreement with Florida Imaging Associates. As I said, Ellis’s billing company did 100% of the billing and Allegiant did 100% of the “management.” Money flowed through the local practices, into Florida Imaging Associates and then into AllegiantMD and Nova. End result – the radiologists were nothing more than phantom partners with no voice or vote and Ellis got 100% of the pie! From what I heard he may have shared a bit of the pie (hundreds of thousands, not millions of dollars) with two older guys and everyone else got sold to Envision.
Interesting. Norsoph was a shyster, everyone knew that. That’s why he could relate so well to HCA, Advent, and Baycare brass.
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Couple points
-HCAand hca hospitals mostly trash
Rick Scott total trash
Point of correction when Adventist moved into west florida they got rid of Norsoph and gave the contract to a local group named sunshine.
I remember this because I just relocated to the Tampa area around that time
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Sunshine then a few years later went to dark side and sold out to Sheridan which got bought out by envision
Also Im not sure this is true but I was told that when Norsoph
Sold out it was for 30 million and that included some high rise office in MiamiNot sure if that was true but that was the word in the street at that time
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Quote from kpack123
Couple points
-HCAand hca hospitals mostly trash
Rick Scott total trash
Point of correction when Adventist moved into west florida they got rid of Norsoph and gave the contract to a local group named sunshine.
I remember this because I just relocated to the Tampa area around that time
“Scott was pressured to resign as chief executive of Columbia/HCA in 1997. During his tenure as chief executive, the company [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud]defrauded[/link] Medicare, Medicaid, and other federal programs. The Department of Justice won 14 felony convictions against the company, which was fined $1.7 billion in what was at the time the largest healthcare fraud settlement in U.S. history.[size=”0″] [/size]Following his departure from Columbia/HCA, Scott became a venture capitalist and pursued other business interests. In 2009, he founded [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatives_for_Patients%27_Rights]Conservatives for Patients’ Rights[/link].”
Yes Scott is “not a good person” to put it politely.
[link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatives_for_Patients%27_Rights]Conservatives for Patients’ Rights[/link] -More like Scott wants the right to abuse patients with conservative views on healthcare.-
You got that right
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Radiology is full of shady characters that probably should have been weeded out by the med school admissions process.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
Radiology is full of shady characters that probably should have been weeded out by the med school admissions process.
The more prestigious the school, the more sociopathic the successful candidates are.
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