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Atlas urges Michigan to ‘rise up’ against COVID-19 rules
It’s as if he deliberately chose a slightly ambiguous inuendo just so that he could cry umbrage the first time he’s called on it. But its traditional use is obvious, and his wink’n’nod message surely was received.
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130 Replies
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Dr. Atlas is an embarrassment to our profession.
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An open letter to Scott Atlas:
[b]STFU![/b]
signed,
dergon-
[link=https://news.stanford.edu/2020/11/16/statement-regarding-scott-atlas/]https://news.stanford.edu…regarding-scott-atlas/[/link]
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I don’t agree with the way Dr. Atlas worded his tweet, but I do support his right to free speech. There is nothing in that sentence that is directly telling people to resort to violence. It could be indirectly interpreted as such, but if you want restrictions on that kind of speech than our current laws would have to be changed.
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People are entitled to believe the world is flat. They have to right to say so every day of their lives if that makes them happy.
But they are not entitled to be cartographers.-
Therein lies the flaw in your argument, and it is something I find to be quite dangerous with the far left movement in this country. That is the idea that if you don’t agree with my view, you are not only wrong, but you deserve to be punished and censored. The simple fact is that his tweet was not a direct call to violence, and should be left up. BLM calls defund the police can be quite easily linked to increases in inner city violence, but they never directly (or at least to my knowledge) called for violence. They should also be left up.
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Quote from gasmasspsoas
Therein lies the flaw in your argument, and it is something I find to be quite dangerous with the far left movement in this country. That is the idea that if you don’t agree with my view, you are not only wrong, but you deserve to be punished and censored. The simple fact is that his tweet was not a direct call to violence, and should be left up. BLM calls defund the police can be quite easily linked to increases in inner city violence, but they never directly (or at least to my knowledge) called for violence. They should also be left up.
^^
Also, BLM is literally being violent and no one cares. Atlas says to “rise up” and the Left wants him cancelled. -
Quote from gasmasspsoas
Therein lies the flaw in your argument, and it is something I find to be quite dangerous with the far left movement in this country. That is the idea that if you don’t agree with my view, you are not only wrong, but you deserve to be punished and censored. The simple fact is that his tweet was not a direct call to violence, and should be left up. BLM calls defund the police can be quite easily linked to increases in inner city violence, but they never directly (or at least to my knowledge) called for violence. They should also be left up.
Daniel Patrick Moynahan who made the argument that, “You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts” was hardly a Leftist ideologue.
As for “punished and censored?” WTF did I propose THAT???
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Quote from gasmasspsoas
I don’t agree with the way Dr. Atlas worded his tweet, but I do support his right to free speech. There is nothing in that sentence that is directly telling people to resort to violence. It could be indirectly interpreted as such, but if you want restrictions on that kind of speech than our current laws would have to be changed.
Free speech? No one here has said anything about having Atlas arrested. You are concocting a straw man argument based on something no one has argued (again, here; I don’t follow Twitter news so don’t follow whether a random crackpot has called for Atlas’ arrest). Right to free speech does not constitute right to say anything without consequences. Just as Atlas is free to say whatever he wants, everyone else is free to criticize him.
There is irony in defending Atlas’ right to say whatever he wants, and on the same token lambasting anyone who criticizes him as going against his freedom of speech.-
Dr Atlas has the right to free speech but as a neuroradiologist he should not be considered an infectious disease/COVID expert. I would not want an infectious disease doc interpreting my brain MRI
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Time to invoke the insurrection act of 1807 😉
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I was referring to the article, where Geraldine McGinty was calling for his tweet to be reviewed and presumably removed .
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There is no “free speech” issue in whether twitter decides to block or flag Atlas’ tweet.
Twitter is a private corporation free to set its own standards in its terms of service. (As Aunt Minnie does)
Dr. Atlas can choose to abide by those standards or risk having his content edited/removed. He is free to take his right wing ranting over to Parler where he will have no such issue.
Freedom of speech is not freedom of platform nor is it freedom of scope. Twitter is under no obligation to provide him either a platform or the ability to reach mass numbers of people easily.
And the first amendment provides no such right.
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Interesting discourse here. The concept of “free speech” certainly has many new aspects in the age of the internet. I would argue as a libertarian that Twitter is indeed a private corporation and that they should indeed be allowed to create their own set of rules for users to abide by. However, they then have to apply those rules evenly to all users, because if they don’t then that is discriminatory, and that is against the law. So for example, if their rule is “no tweets that could directly or indirectly incite violence”, then they would also have to take down the numerous Antifa and BLM tweets about burning down cities and destroying buildings. They of course have not done that.
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Not to mention the censoring of the POTUS and untouched Iranian and Chinese propaganda.
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We can argue whether or not twitter is fair in its editing.
But that doesn’t matter from a legal standpoint either. Twitter could today come out and say “We are the social media company only for liberals …. we will edit all conservative content!!”
They would be totally within their rights as a private corporation.
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Zuckerberg and Dorsey were testifying before congress about this issue today.
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Dr. Atlas only has a few months before the vaccines are out before he can prove that herd immunity works.
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Quote from denizen
Dr. Atlas only has a few months before the vaccines are out before he can prove that herd immunity works.
Incredibly places like the Dakotas are giving him the testing ground.
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Thread Enhancer, it sounds like a science project.
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Quote from dergon
We can argue whether or not twitter is fair in its editing.
But that doesn’t matter from a legal standpoint either. Twitter could today come out and say “We are the social media company only for liberals …. we will edit all conservative content!!”
They would be totally within their rights as a private corporation.
That’s true I guess… but that’s not what they say at all. -
This whole discussion reminds why I dislike social media. I don’t have either Twitter or Facebook accounts
From now on I will stick to only reading imaging stories (especially with RSNA around the corner) rather than stories which evolve into politics -
I haven’t ever had any social media and I thank myself for that. Who knows what sort of normal conversation in today’s world could keep you from a prominent job 20-30 years from now.
Heck, I don’t even use Alexa, Google home or any of that stuff.
Duckduckgo is pretty sweet as well. -
I don’t use Alexa etc either. However since I am 71 years old I don’t need to worry about being kept from a job in 20 or 30 years[;)]
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You never know!
Those anti-aging drugs/therapies are just over the horizon. -
Who needs anti-aging drugs. Everyone feels 35 until they look in a mirror.
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Twitter can say one thing and do exactly the other (IOW lie to its users). The solution is obvious. When enough of us do what I did. I never signed up for a Twitter account. I canceled my Facebook and LinkedIn accounts when the same PC culture attacked any non PC statements I made by attacking me personally, rather that trying to attack the facts I had posted as false.
What if 70 million Trump voters all canceled their social media accounts tomorrow in protest? Do you think the CEO’s and board of directors would say “Good riddance!” or change their business model? -
Quote from dergon
We can argue whether or not twitter is fair in its editing.
But that doesn’t matter from a legal standpoint either. Twitter could today come out and say “We are the social media company only for liberals …. we will edit all conservative content!!”
They would be totally within their rights as a private corporation.
Should a private corporation own a social media platform without government oversight? Didn’t we go through this with railroads, then telephones and radio? lol
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Big difference
There are multiple alternatives to Twitter and Facebook
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Republicans be like
You will listen to my conspiracy propaganda and lies
AND YOU WILL LIKE IT
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Its my ratzz to free speech to claim a global conspiracy of pedophiles to be beaten down by JFK jr who is coming back to life to team up with Donald trump
Its my ratzz of free speech
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So Atlas is joining that Michigan militia ? Is he going to be part of the public executions ?
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Wouldnt surprise me
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Quote from fw
So Atlas is joining that Michigan militia ? Is he going to be part of the public executions ?
He will tweet “We must decapitate the tyranny!”
then 1 hour later tweet that by “decapitate” he *really* meant voting out the governor.
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Does actual decapitating count as a “legal” vote?
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Scott Atlas political views
“He has advocated eliminating the Affordable Care Act and replacing it with modified tax deductions and incentives. He has also called for changes to Medicare and “aggressive reforms” to turn Medicaid “into a bridge to private insurance” and encourage health savings accounts. Atlas views the Medicaid expansion as “one of the most misguided parts” of the Affordable Care Act. He opposes proposals to establish a public health insurance option or single-payer healthcare. -wiki
Sounds like a real tool.
From 1998 to 2012, Atlas was Professor and Chief of Neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center in California. Can’t imagine he made enough money to retire after that. Probably needs his meager Hoover institute salary. Need I say more?
Didn’t get his ego stroked enough at Stanford? -
The Hoover Institution is a unit of Stanford University but has its own board of overseers.
Revenue 70.5 million 2018
Interesting -
In 2014, the Hoover Institution had an approximately $450 million endowment.
Yes there are still a number of old people with too much money to spend.
Does Atlas really believe any of the alt right propaganda?
Has anyone worked with him to know? -
Atlas may have burned his bridges in academia but hey, he is a stellar neuro guy. He should be able to get a job at Vrad for 20 dollars per RVU reading night neuro cases.
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He is acting like an idiot and fat outside his area of expertise. He knows as much about CD4 cells and pandemics as I do. What a grandstanding opportunist shyster!
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He is acting like an idiot and fat outside his area of expertise. He knows as much about CD4 cells and pandemics as I do. What a grandstanding opportunist shyster!
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He is acting like an idiot and far outside his area of expertise. He knows as much about CD4 cells and pandemics as I do. What a grandstanding opportunistic shyster!
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Yet you can’t tell us where he is wrong.
I bet you are still for school lockdowns, too. -
Free country. He can say what he wants. America seems to be becoming filled with sensitive wimps on both sides. We care about social media and are shutting down the country over a virus about 3x as bad as the flu. Ya it sucks people die, but thats life. We are becoming soft, fat and way too sensitive. Freedom! Sweden got it right. Recommend but do not mandate. Feel free to disagree, but know youre incorrect.
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Casino royal
Owes me money
This is the guy that reamed every one about not netting
He lost a bet
Pay up
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Quote from AKOMAN
Free country. He can say what he wants. America seems to be becoming filled with sensitive wimps on both sides. We care about social media and are shutting down the country over a virus about 3x as bad as the flu. Ya it sucks people die, but thats life. We are becoming soft, fat and way too sensitive. Freedom! Sweden got it right. Recommend but do not mandate. Feel free to disagree, but know youre incorrect.
Sweden is stricter than us and they have a national plan. Lots of deaths recently as well, no herd immunity.
[link=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/17/sweden-toughens-up-coronavirus-rules-as-infections-and-deaths-rise.html]https://www.cnbc.com/2020…s-and-deaths-rise.html[/link]
Also, more like 10x worse than the flu. The number of rads that don’t have a clue and just want #freedom is some scary shit. -
Quote from Radsoxfan
Quote from AKOMAN
Free country. He can say what he wants. America seems to be becoming filled with sensitive wimps on both sides. We care about social media and are shutting down the country over a virus about 3x as bad as the flu. Ya it sucks people die, but thats life. We are becoming soft, fat and way too sensitive. Freedom! Sweden got it right. Recommend but do not mandate. Feel free to disagree, but know youre incorrect.
Sweden is stricter than us and they have a national plan. Lots of deaths recently as well, no herd immunity.
[link=https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/17/sweden-toughens-up-coronavirus-rules-as-infections-and-deaths-rise.html]https://www.cnbc.com/2020…s-and-deaths-rise.html[/link]
Also, more like 10x worse than the flu. The number of rads that don’t have a clue and just want #freedom is some scary ****.
Lots of death recently. Care to define that? Im not aware that anyone said they were at true herd immunity either. However their second wave brought them to 23 deaths a day at peak. Down to 11 now. Sounds horrific.
Oh my. Their CFR is around 0.27%. Thats CFR. Not IFR. -
They don’t record deaths like many places and back-fill to the actual date of death. They currently have days of 33 and 31 deaths November 9 and 10, roughly equivalent to 1000 in the US. [link=https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/]https://www.worldometers….avirus/country/sweden/[/link]
7 day rolling average up to 24. Will likely continues to go higher as the recent decline is artificial due to the backfilling (similar to how CDC data always looks low in the most recent week or two).
[link=https://ourworldindata.org/covid-sweden-death-reporting]https://ourworldindata.or…sweden-death-reporting[/link]
That’s a lot of death for a place that is “done” with COVID.
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Quote from Thread Enhancer
Lots of death recently. Care to define that? Im not aware that anyone said they were at true herd immunity either. However their second wave brought them to 23 deaths a day at peak. Down to 11 now. Sounds horrific.
Oh my. Their CFR is around 0.27%. Thats CFR. Not IFR.
See above, their death numbers on past dates will continue to go up. You can’t calculate a CFR with the way they report.
I promise when we look back months from now their CFR will not be close to 0.27% -
Fine. Happy to wait.
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They would have been fine if they stuck with their original mitigation methods. They got cocky if you will. Now they are going to a level that we would have been perfectly happy with from the beginning. They will have a total mortality in the 6-7 per M range. Look at us, we out Swedened Sweden.
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Quote from Thread Enhancer
Fine. Happy to wait.
We will never be able to do a true apples to apples comparison since we won’t have the same lag from death to reporting death other countries have. Just the lag from case to actual death.
Based on rolling average of deaths of November 10th of 24 their 2 week CFR is 1.6%. This is the CFR floor as cases won’t change but deaths may still increase.
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Yes. Happy to wait. Very hard to calculate when curves are going up and down. What shall we do with their 4500 cases on 11/14? Can we never use that as a denominator?
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duplicate.
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Sure, we can use November 14th. Given the lack of a lag for reporting time, probably best to do something like 10 day CFR rather than 3 weeks people are using.
So we can look at deaths November 24th as numerator and 4,551 cases on November 14th as the denominator to get a CFR.
Well probably have to wait til mid December to know that November 24th number and its clear they arent backfilling any more into that day.
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Sounds good. Back at you then.
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Sweden got it right. People ARE going to die. Might as well just thin the herd and get it over with. Im for wearing masks and other reasonable recommendations out of love and respect. Closing any business or especially small business is punishing the working poor/the true backbone of America and is wrong to save the medically vulnerable.
Saw a dude in a dress on the cover of Vogue at the store today. America/Rome burns. unless we grow a pair and wake up and start being strong rather than PC. People can wear whatever they want, but this whole everything goes/moral relativism without consequences is horrible.
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It’s not about covid anymore. It’s strictly about power over the people and seeing what the “leaders” can get the people to do. They openly discuss a “world reset.”
Viruses and pandemics happen. This one is pretty mediocre. It’s only so “bad” because of our response to it and our unhealthy, elderly modern society. We’ve had worse and will again. It scares me to think of what they might do next time – tracking chips, “papers” to get permission to leave your house, bans from seeing anyone you know, etc.
Trying to save every old and sick person we can at the expense of our working class adults and education of our children is not the right way to do things. It might be crass and you can call me any dirty names you want to (and have) but it’s reality and tough choices have to be made at a societal level.
Empathy is important but once you get into “mass numbers” you can’t have it anymore. That’s the problem when any policy that affects millions of people is discussed these days…it’s always through the lens of “yeah but that one lady might be sad.” That’s not the point of policy at a societal level.
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This kind of irrational paranoia about tracking chips and fear of government is truly astounding. Id expect it from the psych ward more than a radiology board.
You can relax, were in the middle of a pandemic, we have vaccines on the way. Some measures to slow the spread, prevent hospital overflow, and limit morbidity/mortality are going to be in place for a few months.
There is no grand scheme, no slippery slope to individual submission. Just follow the rules and chill.
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The freedom of hundreds of thousands of people to die alone and spread the disease without government help.
Correction, government tyranny.
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[link=https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/27/covid-19-phone-tracking-apps-this-is-what-youre-not-being-told/?sh=377a32792970]https://www.forbes.com/si…-told/?sh=377a32792970[/link]
I don’t mind following reasonable rules that make sense. The rules being put in place are mostly partisan and many of them will do nothing to halt the spread of covid but do a lot to harming personal freedom. The difference between you and me is that I err on the side of freedom. -
Quote from Radsoxfan
This kind of irrational paranoia about tracking chips and fear of government is truly astounding. Id expect it from the psych ward more than a radiology board.
You can relax, were in the middle of a pandemic, we have vaccines on the way. Some measures to slow the spread, prevent hospital overflow, and limit morbidity/mortality are going to be in place for a few months.
There is no grand scheme, no slippery slope to individual submission. Just follow the rules and chill.
LOL. A breath of fresh air.
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Quote from Radsoxfan
This kind of irrational paranoia about tracking chips and fear of government is truly astounding. Id expect it from the psych ward more than a radiology board.
You can relax, were in the middle of a pandemic, we have vaccines on the way. Some measures to slow the spread, prevent hospital overflow, and limit morbidity/mortality are going to be in place for a few months.
There is no grand scheme, no slippery slope to individual submission. Just follow the rules and chill.
But are they going to take our guns? I am hearing this in my red state.
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Atlas is promoting fantasy theories like cryptic COVID-19 T- cell immune memory from other coronaviruses. He probably doesnt know the difference between a CD4 and a CD8 cell.
No, his career is finished. He just screwed the pooch. -
He has his own facts
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Moot.
DT and Atlas will be history in a few months.
All the hallabaloo is about nothing.
I wish there was a way to just delete a thread.
AM; something to look in to. -
Only an extreme simpleton would boil a disease down to mortality rate. This disease has debilitating long term effects on people that we don’t really understand yet. Probably better to play it safe for a couple more months till the vaccines are out. I don’t see the big sacrifice in wearing a mask and getting take out instead of eating in bars and restaurants. if that is “shutting down the economy” then you have a ridiculous concept of shut down.
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Quote from agentmichaelscarn
Only an extreme simpleton would boil a disease down to mortality rate. [b]This disease has debilitating long term effects on people that we don’t really understand yet.[/b] Probably better to play it safe for a couple more months till the vaccines are out. I don’t see the big sacrifice in wearing a mask and getting take out instead of eating in bars and restaurants. if that is “shutting down the economy” then you have a ridiculous concept of shut down.
I’m getting pretty annoyed that people keep talking about this as a fact. This is the exact thing people are going to use to keep us in lockdown and wearing masks for a loooooooooooooong time.
There’s no evidence out there yet that there is anything special about covid more than other respiratory viruses and many of the ZOMG stuff has turned out to be nothing (see myocarditis). All of the “fatigue syndrome” and increased anxiety/depression etc. stuff has way too many confounders to be meaningful at this point.
If you want to say there might be some long term effects then by all means that could be true but don’t speak to it like it’s a known fact. The only long term sequelae that makes any medical sense at all at this point would be sequelae from an ICU/vent stay that anyone would have from an ICU/vent stay.There have been millions of people infected so far and near all of them have no sequelae. The microscope on the disease has made people go crazy.
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Quote from agentmichaelscarn
Only an extreme simpleton would boil a disease down to mortality rate. This disease has debilitating long term effects on people that we don’t really understand yet. Probably better to play it safe for a couple more months till the vaccines are out. I don’t see the big sacrifice in wearing a mask and getting take out instead of eating in bars and restaurants. if that is “shutting down the economy” then you have a ridiculous concept of shut down.
I agree. Best to be careful the next 4-5 months. The probability of there not being some long term problems is very low even if you define them downward (covid patients who have “ICU” complications have covid complications). Time will tell.
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I am not surprised that most radiologists believe in masks. What surprises me is that normal Americans, Europeans, etc also believe in this bullshit theatre. And really surprising that one of the most reasonable voices (Scott Atlas) is a radiologist)
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Most modern people live their lives in fear with extreme risk aversion.
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So, do we wear masks or not masks?
Do we get together with extended family on Thanksgiving or not? -
Everyone knows the risk(s) and which type(s) of people are at risk. Make your own personal decision about having Thanksgiving. Don’t worry about what some hypocritical Dem governor says.
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Quote from TAP
Quote from agentmichaelscarn
Only an extreme simpleton would boil a disease down to mortality rate. This disease has debilitating long term effects on people that we don’t really understand yet. Probably better to play it safe for a couple more months till the vaccines are out. I don’t see the big sacrifice in wearing a mask and getting take out instead of eating in bars and restaurants. if that is “shutting down the economy” then you have a ridiculous concept of shut down.
I agree. Best to be careful the next 4-5 months. The probability of there not being some long term problems is very low even if you define them downward (covid patients who have “ICU” complications have covid complications). Time will tell.
More fear mongering. I thought that people who believed in science actually had evidence for their assertions. Yeah, and I bet the world is ending in 10 years too, am I right? -
God you Americans are fucked up you are arguing about his free speech when he is literally killing people. People will die because of him.
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Our lunatic fringe is quite large it seems.
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A substantial percentage of the population believe not only that JFK jr is still alive and Hillary Clinton is leading a global pedophile organization but lizard people are wearing human masks and leading the Democratic Party
And they go around yelling educate yourself because the liberal media is lying to you
I guess thats what is meant by making merica great again
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Scary thing is some radiologist in here actually believe the stuff too
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Quote from RIC
God you Americans are ****ed up you are arguing about his free speech when he is literally killing people. People will die because of him.
Ah, sage advice from someone who thinks nothing of injecting MRI contrast containing long term retained and toxic gadolinium which has no antidote for removal in the unsuspecting public. No thanks. No proof of harm you claim? That is because after over 30 years of use, no one is bothering or wanting to look. There are thousands, possibly millions of us now permanently damaged and sickened by what should be criminal behavior. Just ask me, if anyone really cares. Gadoliniumtoxicity.com
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PC Culture? That’s your only problem w Twit and Facebook & Linkedin?
Intolerance is not limited to “PC” by any means.
But you still have the right to post even if you get blowback. Just see AM’s posts & topics and what happens with “non-PC” comments. There’s a lot of blowback here too.
What did Truman say about not being able to stand the heat in the kitchen? -
Well, it beats the alternative. Millions of people are killed by governments when their free speech interfered with the party line. Individuals should be free to make their own decisions and suffer the consequences if they choose poorly, or enjoy the benefits when they choose wisely. Governments should protect us from others wishing to do us harm. Where our government goes wrong is when it tries to protect us from ourselves. If a Michigan resident wishes to wear a mask, he should have that right. And if he wishes to not wear one, he should also have that right. If you feel uncomfortable around someone not wearing a mask, you should be free to walk away, or wash your hands after touching common items that he may have also touched. It can’t be any more clear than that in a country that was founded on the proposition that government is there to preserve individual rights, not to impose the tyranny of the majority upon the others. We are NOT a democracy. We are a republic. States have rights and so do individuals. A democracy can become a danger to freedom and individualism. The tyranny of the majority is often described as two wolves and a lamb voting to decide what’s for dinner.
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Quote from dxaguru
We are NOT a democracy. We are a republic.
Is this some sort of dog whistle whose meaning I keep missing?
What does this mean. I’ve seen it posted by many on the Right as if it has some sort of deep meaning.
Explain how a republic is not a democracy please. -
Quote from dxaguru
Individuals should be free to make their own decisions and suffer the consequences if they choose poorly, or enjoy the benefits when they choose wisely. Governments should protect us from others wishing to do us harm. Where our government goes wrong is when it tries to protect us from ourselves.
See, this is what I don’t get. This line of thinking assumes that all people are rational and selfless beings who have the capability of making reasonable decisions. But on a policy and societal level, where a single bad apple or moron has the ability to cause harm to hundreds of others, it doesn’t seem like a realistic view of the world. As an example, what good is it if hundreds of thousands of responsible gun-owners lock up their guns, practice good gun safety technique, if all it takes is one crackpot with a gun to kill a bunch of people? Similar with masks; what good is it to rely on the rational decision-making of hundreds of thousands of people if all it takes is a couple morons with COVID going around maskless, spreading it to a bunch of other people?
And I find it weird that in a single post, you promote the idea of people having the “right” to not wear masks, in the same breath saying that governments should protect its citizens from others that wish to do them harm, seeming to ignore the fact that not wearing masks has been scientifically shown to increase spread of COVID risk to others. Doesn’t the government stepping in to require masks not qualify as protecting its citizens from others that would cause them harm with their decisions?
I agree with you that individuals should be free to make their own poor decisions and reap the consequences. But in the case of COVID, it clearly goes into the territory of individuals infringing on the rights of others and forcing others to suffer the consequences of their own poor decisions.
Reliance on societal policies that depend on every single individual to be a rational, selfless unit is completely unrealistic. I don’t mean to argue the opposite end where everyone should be locked in boxes for their own safety, but relying on individual responsibility is the other extreme, and it is funny how one is considered crazy but the other is considered a realistic policy. I find it amusing that the Republican governors of the midwest states are currently blaming failures of individuals to protect themselves for the rise in COVID. As if that were ever a realistic policy to begin with. -
The only reason that someone can explain with why South Dakota ( population 850K) has more deaths than South Korea ( population 51 million) is that South Koreans adhered to wearing masks as a country. How do you even attempt to explain something like this to people who think that mask wearing is oppression of freedom?
I don’t think that rates of obesity/hypertension/asthma etc. would be that different in South Dakota than South Korea. -
How mentally and politically sick is it that their only rationale is to call South Koreans “sheep” who are easily led around by their government.
America isn’t led by our government, we do deadly stupid things on our own no matter how many will die of our own stupidity. Disposable people. -
We have a substantial percent of population who believe in lizard people global pedophiles
consortium and think JFK jr is still alive and secretly teamin up with TrumpWho are we to judge
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It’s not just that Asians have higher mask compliance. There are places in the US that have high mask compliance and shutdowns and it makes no difference.
[link=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7403102/]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih….c/articles/PMC7403102/[/link] -
Makes no difference compared to South Korea?
That’s a contradiction of evidence before you. -
No.
Places with high mask compliance and shutdowns show no difference to places that don’t [b]within the US.[/b]
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RADD2010’s statement was:
[size=”0″]”The only reason that someone can explain with why South Dakota ( population 850K) has more deaths than South Korea ( population 51 million) [b][i]is that South Koreans adhered to wearing masks as a country.[/i][/b]”[/size]
So your answer is:
“It’s not [i]just[/i] that Asians have higher mask compliance. [i]There are places in the US that have high mask compliance and shutdowns and it makes no difference[/i]. ”
And you add further:
“Places with high mask compliance and shutdowns show no difference to places that don’t [b]within the US.”[/b]
OK, so apparently masks somehow do not work in the US but they do work in South Korea & elsewhere in the world?
Your 1st answer is self-contradictory noting it is not just the Koreans wear masks, it is that Americans wear masks to no effect?
How does any of that make any sense at all? -
Because it’s not all about the masks. Did you read that article?
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I read your posts.
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Masks as a cultural practice without any social stigma attached are mentioned in the article as a reason why asian countries have been successful in combating covid.
Looks like that the sickest covid people congregated in a particular setting in USA would be in a hospital. Why is it that the hospitals themselves ( which harbor the sickest covid patients) don’t have major outbreaks in USA….Most likely because they are adhering to wearing masks and shields, not because they are carrying some fantasy asian gene mutation. It has been found that people who got sick in the hospital were the employees who took off mask in the break rooms.
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I had noted too about staff with direct pt contact did not seem to fall in droves & spread to others. I had to assume technique & PPEs a large reason.
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Still wondering what is a democracy vs a republic that is noninclusive? A non-intersecting Venn diagram?
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Worked with him for a year in 1996. Knew he was conservative (libertarian?) but he did not talk about his political views.
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Quote from Robert Zimmerman (bemmzim)
Worked with him for a year in 1996. Knew he was conservative (libertarian?) but he did not talk about his political views.
I bought his neuro book in the late 90s. I liked it.
In my experience it is never a good idea to discuss politics at work.
A “libertarian radiologist”. That’s a good one. Sounds like an oxymoron but I guess there area few out there. Then again, there are also rads who still believe in dieties.
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This disease may hurt old people or fat arses. And mostly it doesn’t even hurt them. What part of 99.5% of survival don’t you understand?
Why should we feel bad about old people and fat arses, by the way? They either had a great run, or they made their choices, or both.
We still help them. The issue here is one of honesty.
But the other side here wants to lie to people all the time. Male is female, fat is ok, healthy is unhealthy, masks and lockdowns work.
Talk about science deniers. -
When are you paying me my money
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Just put on a mask. To not do so is selfish, stubborn and stupid.
res ipsa loquitur, along with tons of other data:
[link]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNeYfUTA11s[/link]
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Just put on a mask. To not do so is selfish, stubborn and stupid.
res ipsa loquitur, along with tons of other data:
[link]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNeYfUTA11s[/link]
[link=https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6947e2-H.pdf]https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/…wr/pdfs/mm6947e2-H.pdf[/link]
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Quote from Casino Royale
This disease may hurt old people or fat arses. And mostly it doesn’t even hurt them. What part of 99.5% of survival don’t you understand?
Why should we feel bad about old people and fat arses, by the way? They either had a great run, or they made their choices, or both.
Talk about science deniers.
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I know people in their 60s and 70s who were nearly asymptomatic.
The morbidity portion is still an unproven commodity and at this point still a fear-mongering anecdote. We need to wait and see if theres anything to it more than a standard illness.
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That’s a good question.
Apparently a 50k deaths a year respiratory virus warrants nothing and a 250k death a year respiratory virus warrants complete shutdowns, trillions of dollars, etc.
So I have no idea what that scale is and I’m happy to have someone try to explain the rationality
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Quote from Cubsfan10
That’s a good question.
Apparently a 50k deaths a year respiratory virus warrants nothing and a 250k death a year respiratory virus warrants complete shutdowns, trillions of dollars, etc.
So I have no idea what that scale is and I’m happy to have someone try to explain the rationality
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Quote from sandeep panga
if we could have meaningfully mitigated it with masks and hygiene then could we have avoided at least some of the shutdown devastation?
This is what the advice from the experts is. It think it’s common sense. It’s also the advice of all hospital administrators and doctors. You cannot walk into the hospital without a mask on. -
So an extra 200K deaths a year is worth how many trillion dollars exactly, CF? They didn’t teach me that in my neuroradiology rotation.
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I dont know. You tell me?
50k is zero.
250k- 300k is like 3 trillion + economic stagnation + whatever the next stimulus is.
Those are covid deaths though.
250-300k deaths of anything else are less in this hierarchical scale.
I’m happy for anyone to explain to me what the cutoffs for trillions, shutdowns, masking etc are
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I feel weird talking about lives in terms of how much money each is worth.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
That’s a good question.
Apparently a 50k deaths a year respiratory virus warrants nothing and a 250k death a year respiratory virus warrants complete shutdowns, trillions of dollars, etc.
So I have no idea what that scale is and I’m happy to have someone try to explain the rationality
It’s a tough question, but just to get the numbers right, we’re talking 30-40k avg. flu deaths in the US per year and 300-400k COVID deaths this year (depending if you want to use reported deaths or excess deaths). So about 10 flu seasons worth of death, and that’s with of course much more mitigation than we usually do for the flu.
This also ignores the significant unknown, but clearly substantial morbidity. I expect number of thromboembolic events, fibrotic lung disease, and long term clinical sequelae related to COVID will be significantly higher than from a typical year of respiratory viral illnesses.
If society was built for this type of respiratory illness every year it would be one thing, but the abrupt nature of this change and strain on hospitals/staffing has been immense. -
Quote from Radsoxfan
So about 10 flu seasons worth of death, and that’s with of course much more mitigation than we usually do for the flu.
Did the mitigation have a large effect on outcome? -
Given that it looks like we have effective vaccines soon I would say yes.
If we lived 2020 exactly the same as 2019 with all normal behavior, indoor concerts/sports, etc I think we would be well above 15-20% of the population infected right now.
30-40% easily, likely more. We would all go the way of the Dakotas. For each 1% of the population thats infected in the US, more than 13k people die.
And thats not even accounting for issues with hospital capacity and increased IFR if things are totally out of control.
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Quote from Radsoxfan
Given that it looks like we have effective vaccines soon I would say yes.
If we lived 2020 exactly the same as 2019 with all normal behavior, indoor concerts/sports, etc I think we would be well above 15-20% of the population infected right now.
30-40% easily, likely more. We would all go the way of the Dakotas. For each 1% of the population thats infected in the US, more than 13k people die.
And thats not even accounting for issues with hospital capacity and increased IFR if things are totally out of control.
Oh yes. For sure. You are going with flatten the curve levels of mitigation. No large events and keep super spreader opportunities low by mask wearing etc. Keep the hospitals functioning. That definitely helped. I see that you are using a 0.4% IFR as well. There is some room to tweak them for improvement but hard to argue too strongly with your estimates. At least they are within reason.
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Quote from Thread Enhancer
Quote from Radsoxfan
So about 10 flu seasons worth of death, and that’s with of course much more mitigation than we usually do for the flu.
Did the mitigation have a large effect on outcome?
We don’t know. The modelling has been all over the place. (The old adage “All models are wrong, some are useful” applies)
But I kind of come down in the range of approximately 1 million more US deaths compared to now if we had done no mitigation at all.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
That’s a good question.
Apparently a 50k deaths a year respiratory virus warrants nothing and a 250k death a year respiratory virus warrants complete shutdowns, trillions of dollars, etc.
So I have no idea what that scale is and I’m happy to have someone try to explain the rationality
that would be 250k deaths and rising and it hasn’t been a full year yet and we have locked down, people wearing masks, travel restrictions and massive testing and we STILL have 250k deaths and now rising around 2k deaths per day … How much worse would it have been if we had done nothing?
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If we had done absolutely nothing? Like still had sporting events and everything? Hard to say. Maybe 2x as many deaths but then we’d be at herd immunity and back to normal.
If we had just limited large gatherings and protected vulnerable populations? Probably roughly the same.
We aren’t getting much of anything out of lockdowns, masking, etc. in practice in the outcomes. Certainly not enough to warrant the loss of money/jobs/etc.
No one still willing to answer whether we should mask up and lock down for influenza every year from now on though. Telling. -
Quote from Cubsfan10
We aren’t getting much of anything out of lockdowns, masking, etc. in practice in the outcomes. Certainly not enough to warrant the loss of money/jobs/etc.
It is tough to determine effectiveness of lockdowns/masking/etc where I am, because very few did it. At the height of the restrictions there was only a small subset of people that took any steps toward mitigation, otherwise it was big church events, big family gatherings, dinner parties, birthday parties, indoor concerts, outdoor concerts, big indoor and outdoor sports events, travel, everything. The only place I noticed any behavioral change was in federal/state buildings where armed guards were standing near the ‘wear a mask’ signs. Even the hospitals would require masks for entrance, but then most people, including staff, just removed their masks and carried on as before. So I’m not sure we can determine any effectiveness in some loctions since there was essentially no mitigation effort. -
You can just look at state to state comparisons within the US. Pretty good examples of states that have had almost no mitigation, mixed, and harsh restrictions. No significant difference in any of the outcomes.
If you want to say it’s because “people aren’t doing what they’re told!” like the Dem governors have been doing then that’s fine but all I was saying is that in practice, those measures don’t change covid outcomes but they certainly change the economy/jobs/etc.
Heck, even YYG chimed in yesterday with good IL vs TX/FL numbers. -
Quote from Cubsfan10
You can just look at state to state comparisons within the US. Pretty good examples of states that have had almost no mitigation, mixed, and harsh restrictions. No significant difference in any of the outcomes.
If you want to say it’s because “people aren’t doing what they’re told!” like the Dem governors have been doing then that’s fine but all I was saying is that in practice, those measures don’t change covid outcomes but they certainly change the economy/jobs/etc.
Heck, even YYG chimed in yesterday with good IL vs TX/FL numbers.
They have no answer to this, which is why they don’t answer it, and you and I get nowhere. -
You have to answer for why you havent paid me what you owe
Your a real tough guy making bets
You lost the bet
Pay up
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Total BS.
Look at WA, OR and ND and SD.
The deaths/admissions over the course of the year have stayed low and relatively stable WA and OR. Even within WA, the people from counties that literally spat on Governor Inslee are the ones filling Seattle hospitals. -
I know people in their 40’s who have been sick as hell and after 1 month have not been able to jog.Their lungs are still shot. Please cut the crap.
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Quote from RADD2010
I know people in their 40’s who have been sick as hell and after 1 month have not been able to jog.Their lungs are still shot. Please cut the crap.
Lol oh well if you know a few people that changes everything!
All I’m saying is that there are way too many people treating these long term morbidity things as immutable facts and we can’t say that at all. The vast majority of people don’t even get very sick from the virus itself, let alone after effects.
The jump to throw in these morbidity things is a fear tactic and I just don’t understand the extreme love of pessimism, death, and destruction on this board/on the Left/in the media. -
Quote from RADD2010
I know people in their 40’s who have been sick as hell and after 1 month have not been able to jog.Their lungs are still shot. Please cut the crap.
And I know the other 99.5% who don’t.
You can’t seem to understand just how unhealthy the common person is. Or seem to care about people’s entire livelihoods destroyed while you fear monger a disease that kills people just like the flu. Shut up now you pediatric non analyzer of risk or tradeoffs. You’re a joke. -
People like you have been proven deadly. The joker….the one who actually kills like a madman. 250 K deaths and counting ! Still calling it flu.
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It already has, its called family court.
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+1
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Lol. Sweden got it right. NOT.
Karin Tegmark Wisell, head of the Public Health Agency in Stockholm, added: ‘Face masks shouldn’t be used as an excuse not to keep a distance.’
On Monday, Sweden’s former state epidemiologist warned the country has been left unprepared for a second wave of coronavirus because of ‘wishful thinking’ by its top virus expert.
Annika Linde said Anders Tegnell got it wrong when he predicted that ‘herd immunity’ built up over the summer would protect the country when winter came.
This approach has seen cases and deaths soar, and on Monday forced Prime Minister Stefan Lofven to announce that gatherings would be limited to a maximum of eight people.
Mr Lofven said Swedes should also avoid going to gyms and libraries, and cancel any dinner parties they had planned.
‘This is the new norm for the entire society,’ he said. ‘It’s going to get worse. Do your duty and take responsibility for stopping the spread of the virus.’
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Quote from Dr. Dimento
It’s as if he deliberately chose a slightly ambiguous inuendo just so that he could cry umbrage the first time he’s called on it. But its traditional use is obvious, and his wink’n’nod message surely was received.
Ah, sage advice from someone who thinks nothing of injecting MRI contrast containing long term retained and toxic gadolinium which has no antidote for removal in the unsuspecting public. No thanks. No proof of harm you claim? That is because after over 30 years of use, no one is bothering or wanting to look. There are thousands, possibly millions of us now permanently damaged and sickened by what should be criminal behavior. Just ask me, if anyone really cares. Gadoliniumtoxicity.com
