-
Are Conservatives right, poor people deserve to be poor?
-
I’m registering Democrat, in order to vote for Elizabeth Warren.
-
I most certainly am not regretful.
Romney is looking more like the Mitt Romney who ran Massachusetts and less like the “severe conservative” that ran for president.
But he is trying to do his part to guide the GOP back into the center right, where he and most members of the GOP live. (Even the majority of republicans favor raising the minimum wage).-
Pope Francis states that governments should redistribute wealth to the poor.
Alda & everyone else with objections to “redistribution,” any comments? What would Jesus say?-
I knew, the left was going to latch on to the Pope’s remarks on sharing of the wealth, while of course, ignoring his remarks against abortion.
The Pope invoked the parable of Zacchaeus in imploring us to [i]”share [b]with complete freedom[/b] the goods which Gods providence has placed in our hands, material goods but also intellectual and spiritual ones, and to give back generously and lavishly whatever we may have earlier unjustly refused to others.”[/i]
This is no different than the traditional teachings of the Catholic church and other Christian Bible Schools. Helping the poor has been a tenet of the Catholic church for over two millennium. It is not a new phenomenon. This is also consistent with conservative practice of being charitable. The Pope is doing his job by encouraging people to give freely and to have generosity of spirit. He’s not forcing anyone to give, unlike the secular liberals who want to forcefully extract from others, while not giving very much of their own. The rudderless liberal message: Good for thee, but not good enough for me.
It is a known fact that conservatives give more to charities than do liberals. This is consistent with the Pope’s request to give [b][i]”with complete freedom”[/i][/b]. I would also venture to say that the US as a country is extremely charitable to the poor, but … In order to give away wealth, you first must have some wealth to give away. Capitalism is the most effective way to gain wealth, so the liberals who are trying to destroy it are hurting those same poor people they profess to want to help.-
Governments helping the poor is redistribution, no other way to do it.
While the Church & the Pope are against abortion I don’t recall the Bible or Jesus specifically saying anything against abortion. Or even unspecific. Is there something I missed?
I do know however that the New Testament & Jesus specifically say many, many specific things and instructions about helping the poor.-
That’s why for Cons history stops and the end on the Old Testament and begins again in January 2009 (they also occasionally admit that something may have happened between 1981 and 1988 when it fits their narrative)
-
-
Quote from aldadoc
It is a known fact that conservatives give more to charities than do liberals.
Oh, I’d sure like to see your data on that one.
There’s no way you’re going to get away with what you’re trying to imply with that one-liner. .
-
Quote from Lux
Quote from aldadoc
It is a known fact that conservatives give more to charities than do liberals.
Oh, I’d sure like to see your data on that one.
There’s no way you’re going to get away with what you’re trying to imply with that one-liner. .
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/10/21/study-conservatives-and-liberals-are-equally-charitable-but-they-give-to-different-charities/]http://www.washingtonpost…o-different-charities/[/link]
[b]
Conservatives and liberals are equally charitable, but they give to different charities[/b][/h1]
[link=http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-conservatives-or-liberals-20140331-story.html]http://www.latimes.com/bu…ls-20140331-story.html[/link]
The source of the notion that conservatives are more generous is the 2006 book “Who Really Cares,” by Arthur C. Brooks, who later became president of the pro-business American Enterprise Institute.
The book was a brief for “compassionate conservatism,” but its claim raised a lot of skepticism, and [link=http://www.volokh.com/posts/1164012942.shtml]not only among liberals[/link]. One problem noted across the political spectrum was Brooks’ reliance on the [link=http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/data_access/data/datasets/social_capital_community_survey.html]2000 Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey[/link] to distinguish “liberal” from “conservative.” The problem was that the survey didn’t seem to accurately measure those categories and didn’t distinguish well between social conservatives or liberals and fiscal conservatives or liberals.
What the MIT researchers did find, however, was that conservatives give more to religious organizations, such as their own churches, and liberals more to secular recipients. Conservatives may give more overall, MIT says, but that’s because they tend to be richer, so they have more money to give and get a larger tax benefit from giving it. (One of the things that makes social scientists skeptical of the benchmark survey Brooks used, in fact, is that it somehow concluded that liberals are richer than conservatives.)
[b]The bottom line, according to the MIT study, was that “liberals are no more or less generous than conservatives once we adjust for differences in church attendance and income.” [/b]
-
Pope Francis just excommunicates mafiosi as not “being in communion with god.”
Wow.
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pope-francis-lambastes-mobsters-says-mafiosi-are-excommunicated/2014/06/21/4384dfcc-f97a-11e3-8aa9-dad2ec039789_story.html]http://www.washingtonpost…ad2ec039789_story.html[/link]
It was the first time a pope had used the word excommunication a total cutoff from the Catholic Church in direct reference to members of organized crime.
Those who in their lives follow this path of evil, as mafiosi do, are not in communion with God. They are excommunicated, he said in impromptu comments at a Mass before hundreds of thousands of people in one of Italys most crime-infested areas.
To sustained applause he told the crowd: This evil must be fought against, it must be pushed aside. We must say no to it. He branded the local crime group, the Ndrangheta, as an example of the adoration of evil and contempt of the common good and said the church would exert its full force in efforts to combat organized crime.
Our children are asking for it, our young people are asking for it. They are in need of hope and faith can help respond to this need, he said.
Vatican spokesman Ciro Benedettini said the popes stern words did not constitute a formal decree of canon law regarding excommunication. Rather, he said it was more of a direct message to members of organized crime that they had effectively excommunicated themselves, reminding them that they could not participate in church sacraments or other activities because they had distanced themselves from God through their criminal actions.-
So the church, in addition to providing shelter for men who sexually abused children, was, up till this week, just fine with organized crime. You know – murder, etc.
They preach about helping the poor, and deny them birth control and also retain billions upon billions of dollars of real estate and art objects.
One thing can be said with absolute certainty. The Catholic Church sets a pretty high bar for hypocrisy.
-
Quote from Dr.Sardonicus
So the church, in addition to providing shelter for men who sexually abused children, was, up till this week, just fine with organized crime. You know – murder, etc.
They preach about helping the poor, and deny them birth control and also retain billions upon billions of dollars of real estate and art objects.
One thing can be said with absolute certainty. The Catholic Church sets a pretty high bar for hypocrisy.
now you see (I hope others got this from my historical posts) why the Catholic Church has a great element of SJW in it. Again, not all members believe this and actually many object, but it is hard for them to reconcile it given the dogma and institutionalization of things with a guy like Jorge Bergoglio up top
when you make institutions that directly relate to and are “of the world” — that is, appeal to theology in them — you eventually end up where they are
it’s sad and shows you they were never the true church, just another innovator
this says nothing about their members [b][i]per se[/i][/b]
the trajectory of it, rather, says more, and is my point-
It’s easy to cherry pick bad things and paint the entire religion one color
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
On poverty and healthcare. A nice response to Jason Chaffetz
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/03/08/laziness-isnt-why-people-are-poor-and-iphones-arent-why-they-lack-health-care/?utm_term=.cfc853825c18]https://www.washingtonpos…utm_term=.cfc853825c18[/link]
In response to a question about his partys plan to increase the cost of health insurance, Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) suggested that [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/03/07/if-jason-chaffetz-wants-to-compare-healthcare-to-iphones-lets-do-it-the-right-way/?utm_term=.9a026004bdeb]people should invest in their own health care [/link]instead of getting that new iPhone. He doubled-down on the point in a [link=https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/839140561093287936]later interview[/link]: People need to make a conscious choice, and I believe in self-reliance. Of course, Chaffetz is wrong. But he isnt alone.
Chaffetz was articulating a commonly held belief that poverty in the United States is, by and large, the result of laziness, immorality and irresponsibility. If only people made better choices if they worked harder, stayed in school, got married, didnt have children they couldnt afford, spent what money they had more wisely and saved more then they wouldnt be poor, or so the reasoning goes.Since the invention of the mythic welfare queen in the 1960s, this has been the story we most reliably tell about why people are poor. Never mind that research from across the social sciences shows us, over and again, that its a lie. Never mind low wages or lack of jobs, the poor quality of too many schools, the dearth of marriageable males in poor black communities (thanks to a racialized criminal justice system and ongoing discrimination in the labor market), or the high cost of birth control and day care. Never mind the fact that the largest group of poor people in the United States are children. Never mind the grim reality that most American adults who are poor are not poor from lack of effort but despite it.
This deep denial serves a few functions, however.
First, its founded on the assumption that the United States is a land of opportunity, where upward mobility is readily available and hard work gets you ahead. Second, to believe that poverty is a result of immorality or irresponsibility helps people believe it cant happen to them. But it can happen to them (and to me and to you). Third and conveniently, perhaps, for people like Chaffetz or House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) this stubborn insistence that people could have more money or more health care if only they wanted it more absolves the government of having to intervene and use its power on their behalf.
-
FYI dergon
I believe it was in 2013 Obama said a very similar thing rather than using the Iphone he referenced their TV bill and health care cost.
Are you upset about that? Did the Post cover that story w such scrutiny?
Same thing w Ben Carson. The media went after him for the slave / immigration comment. Obama reference Africans as immigrants in a 2015 speech at the National Archives. Did the media go crazy on him for that?
-
Quote from Ixrayu
FYI dergon
I believe it was in 2013 Obama said a very similar thing rather than using the Iphone he referenced their TV bill and health care cost.
Are you upset about that? Did the Post cover that story w such scrutiny?
Same thing w Ben Carson. The media went after him for the slave / immigration comment. Obama reference Africans as immigrants in a 2015 speech at the National Archives. Did the media go crazy on him for that?
more proof that it is about double standards, witch hunts, and more importantly, OMISSION
you can’t apply a standard to someone if you refuse to acknowledge that he should be held to it
The basic thinking is “If Obama said it, it must be noble.”
“If Carson said it, it must be nefarious”
even if both statements are borderline or questionable. One gets press, the other doesn’t. What’s more, one gets scrutinized and labeled (buzzwords, “dog whistle”, “call to arms”, etc) -
Quote from Ixrayu
FYI dergon
I believe it was in 2013 Obama said a very similar thing rather than using the Iphone he referenced their TV bill and health care cost.
Are you upset about that? Did the Post cover that story w such scrutiny?
Same thing w Ben Carson. The media went after him for the slave / immigration comment. Obama reference Africans as immigrants in a 2015 speech at the National Archives. Did the media go crazy on him for that?
Context & substance. You are missing the points. Is it deliberate or just blindly following the memes given to you by right-wing media?
-
No it is a double standard. The left media can’t wait to find anything they can report on while Obama got a free pass.
-
Why don’t you just provide the quote from Obama that irks you that you find identical to Chaffetz’s & explain why you find them identical. I did not find them identical in meaning at all.
-
-
There is something to be said for personal responsibility. Some people work hard and don’t make ends meet. Like someone who might work in retail. Some people do very little yet do very well. Congress is a pretty good example of those people.
-
I was wrong. Frumi is right I did miss the context. I realized after my last post the true context was Obama a dem said it making the meaning so very different based on party.
-
-
-
-
-
Here you go – looks pretty similar to me ( I was wrong on the year) Of course you do not think its the same because of who said it.
Obama (March 6, 2014 town hall meeting w Spanish media)
The President responded, If you look at that persons budget, if you looked at their cable bill, their cell phone bill, and other things they are spending it on it may turn out that, its just they havent prioritized health care. He added that if a family member gets sick, the father will wish he had paid that $300 a month. And also went on to say no one wants to spend money on health care insurance.
He also responded in a follow up question the person that asked the question in audience should just go on medicaid or cancel their phone bill. He also blamed it on the State of Texas.
Chaffetz
Well, we’re getting rid of the individual mandate. We’re getting rid of those things that people said that they don’t want. … Americans have choices, and they’ve got to make a choice. So rather than getting that new iPhone that they just love and want to go spend hundreds of dollars on that, maybe they should invest in their own health care.
-
The simple observation is that Obama was saying you pay a phone bill which is about equal to what healthcare insurance would cost you. Chaffetz on the other hand states that you have to make a choice, a phone or healthcare insurance.
Obama is saying you can have a phone AND healthcare insurance while Chaffetz says only one, pick, taking up the right-wing meme that a phone is an luxury extravegance.
[link=http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/28/barack-obama/obama-says-some-can-buy-health-insurance-cost-mont/]http://www.politifact.com…h-insurance-cost-mont/[/link]
[link]http://www.sltrib.com/home/5025328-155/story.html[/link]
[h1][/h1][h1]Chaffetz says poor people should forgo iPhones to pay for health care[/h1] Rep. Jason Chaffetz faced a torrential backlash Tuesday about the way he framed the difficult decisions poorer Americans may have to make when it comes to their insurance under a new Republican plan to slim down Obamacare.
“Americans have choices, and they’ve got to make a choice. So rather than getting that new iPhone that they just love and want to go spend hundreds of dollars on that, maybe they should invest in their own health care,” Chaffetz said on CNN.
When asked about Chaffetz’s comments at a White House press briefing Tuesday, Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price didn’t respond directly but said that people already cannot afford their insurance plans under the Affordable Care Act.
“What’s happening right now is that the American people are having to sacrifice in order to purchase coverage,” he said.
In regards to people “can’t afford” buying insurance through the ACA, this might account for a full 3% of those people purchasing insurance through the ACA.
Hardly “American people are having to sacrifice in order to purchase coverage.”
-
The issue of Obama talking about the cost equal to a phone bill or shopping for cable tv was back in 2013 in a totally different event. Did you read his quote? He said
[b] [/b]
[b]its just they havent prioritized health carefather will wish he had paid it[/b]
At no time did he say in the answer it was equal to a phone bill. The word equal is not even in his response. He talked about priorities and deciding what is important, what you will decided to spend money on which is exactly what Chaffetz was referring to.
Later on he told the questioner he should go on Medicaid or cancel his phone bill. Watch it on youtube and after he said it the WH had to attempt to clarify what he said. Why aren’t you outraged he told someone to go on medicaid or cancel their phone? If Trump said it you would be posting for days.
You libs just can’t admit Obama said the same things the repubs have said the only difference is the media gave him a pass.
-
The difference is that Obama created the ACA while Republicans have been swearing to tear it down to nothing, repeal and replace with nothing, the cornerstone of 7 years of opposition.
Why aren’t you outraged?
Chaffetz doesn’t support any healthcare for those Obama provided for, over 11 million formerly uninsured.
Why aren’t you outraged? Where has the Republican plan been?
Why aren’t you outraged?
What is the Republican plan today except to throw many off healthcare?
Why aren’t you outraged?
A conservative core of Republicans wants only repeal with no replace at all throwing everyone back to the more expensive mess we had before the ACA with all the uninsured of then.
Why aren’t you outraged?
The problem with you Cons is that it is all a con.
-
Nice attempt at deflection.
-
It certainly is not a deflection to note that Chaffetz is not a friend of providing health care to the poor while Obama has provided healthcare to the poor, regardless of both mentioning phones and phone bills respectively. That is the reality you’d rather not admit because you are so mired in Obama-hate & Trump cheerleading.
If you are so concerned about phones, explain how the Republican’s proposal improves Obama’s ACA for the poor, with or without phones.-
The title of this thread is why you are so out of touch and why people increasingly distrust lefties, their game is so obvious
As if any platform of anyone in the world is
“Hey look, poor people deserve to be poor” and then start laughing
It’s just a stupid idea — only political hacks think like that, and it’s so silly it doesn’t even deserve a response. I’m surprised it got this far (but of course it’s other topics that people are commenting on)-
It is a stupid idea, I totally agree & yet many on the Right actually believe the poor and disabled are poor and disabled due to their own fault. Poor, violent, broken marriages, single men on welfare, minorities on welfare, single mothers on welfare, “welfare queens.” They are described as lazy moochers who don’t want to work but would rather mooch off of others’ work. Read many, very many comments about that here on AM by right wing posters, read that in right wing media.
Unfortunately it is not just the political right wing hacks who believe that, it’s a general right-wing assumption. Recall Romney talking about the 47% who pay no taxes, he was describing a well-known right-wing meme & belief.-
Quote from Frumious
It is a stupid idea, I totally agree & yet many on the Right actually believe the poor and disabled are poor and disabled due to their own fault. Poor, violent, broken marriages, single men on welfare, minorities on welfare, single mothers on welfare, “welfare queens.” They are described as lazy moochers who don’t want to work but would rather mooch off of others’ work. Read many, very many comments about that here on AM by right wing posters, read that in right wing media.
Unfortunately it is not just the political right wing hacks who believe that, it’s a general right-wing assumption. Recall Romney talking about the 47% who pay no taxes, he was describing a well-known right-wing meme & belief.
Frumi, no, seriously, they believe that there should be incentives to do things, not incentive to do nothing.
Big difference.
-
-
Can the problems of the poor just be written off as their own fault and responsibility?
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/west-virginia-tug-river-obamacare/]https://www.washingtonpos…a-tug-river-obamacare/[/link]
Tug River Health Association treats about 8,700 patients, resulting in some 20,000 visits a year to its five clinics. In 2016, 12,284 of those visits were from patients on Medicaid, up from 5,674 in 2013, before the ACA took effect here. Without the ACA, many of those patients wouldnt be able to afford care. Will they soon lose their coverage? Will they stop coming to the clinic? Lately, Tug Rivers chief executive has been telling his staff, The key word going forward is uncertainty.
In other parts of the country, the primary impact of the ACA has been requiring people to have private health insurance, but in poor and sick communities like McDowell County, the laws dominant effect has been the Medicaid expansion, which has given more people access to the kind of health care that wasnt widely available or affordable to them before. With an insurance card in her pocket, the patient at Tammys window can venture into the realms of medical care that are typically out of reach to those without one: blood work, immunizations, specialized doctors, surgery, physical therapy.
If she needs mental health counseling, the clinic no longer sends her to the next county over; last July, Tug River was able to hire a psychologist, who is now treating 180 people, many of whom are trying to overcome opioid addictions.
If she needs medication, the nurses wont go digging in a closet of samples left by drug reps as they used to do for the uninsured. The medication will come from a pharmacy and cost no more than a few dollars.
All right sweetie, I got you, Tammy tells her, and the patient retreats to a chair to wait for her name to be called. The routine is repeated dozens of times a day as the phone rings behind the front desk. For appointments, press one, the callers hear. Black lung, two.
Worked all their lives then get black lung & lose their jobs and therefore insurance. Without Medicaid/Medicaid and the ACA, what is their alternative? Die? It’s their own fault? Why should government help them? I don’t burn coal & never did so why should I care? Even if I used coal, why should I care? Is that the GOP solution?-
[b]U.S. Poverty Rate Soars[/b][/h1]
The U.S. poverty rate has surged over the past five months, with 7.8 million Americans falling into poverty, the latest indication of how deeply many are struggling after government aid dwindled, the [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/16/poverty-rising/]Washington Post[/link] reports.
The poverty rate jumped to 11.7 percent in November, up 2.4 percentage points since June, according to new data released Wednesday by researchers at the University of Chicago and the University of Notre Dame-
You can see it in the lines for the food bank.
-
Quote from dergon
[b]U.S. Poverty Rate Soars[/b]
The U.S. poverty rate has surged over the past five months, with 7.8 million Americans falling into poverty, the latest indication of how deeply many are struggling after government aid dwindled, the [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/16/poverty-rising/]Washington Post[/link] reports.The poverty rate jumped to 11.7 percent in November, up 2.4 percentage points since June, according to new data released Wednesday by researchers at the University of Chicago and the University of Notre Dame
Dergon knows old threads on this board like no one else. He’s regularly resurrecting threads from years ago.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
And for the disabled for example? Or finding jobs that just don’t pay much more than minimum wage with no benefits? Not everyone has an advanced degree or is capable of earning an advanced degree that pays a high income.
Not every problem has a simple solution. And not everyone is to blame for living with wages that pay less than a radiologists. Every problem is not someone’s fault, especially not always their own fault.
And yet that is the argument made by the Right too often, it’s their own fault. -
[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/569766-wisconsin-school-district-opts-out-of-free-lunch-program-for-students]Wisconsin school district opts out of free lunch program for students[/link]
[b]Board Member says free lunches enable families to “become spoiled[/b]
A Wisconsin district’s school board has opted out of a federal program providing all students free lunch, making it the only district in the state to do so, [link=https://www.wisn.com/article/waukesha-school-board-opts-out-of-federal-free-lunch-program/37388905]according to WISN[/link].
The school board in Waukesha had opted into the program when it began in 2020 as a response to the coronavirus pandemic but decided not to renew its status going into the school year.Some Waukesha parents spoke out against the school board’s decision, arguing that the federal program helped take away the stigma from low-income families who benefited from their children receiving free lunch.
“I think after everything we’ve been through in the last 18 months, anything we can do to help these families and help these kids with the basic necessities of life is so important,” foster parent Chrissy Sebald told WISN.[/QUOTE]
-
We’ve known for centuries that poor people, men, woman & especially children choose to be poor, it’s a lifestyle choice because they are lazy & would rather take the easy lifestyle.
We need to bring back childhood labor. That Socialist Lewis Hine messed everything up with his propaganda photos. And Walker Evans.
[image]https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/lewis-hine-early-20th-century-photography-2.jpg[/image]
[image]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9PDKk2sTeDM/T9MJ-L6XveI/AAAAAAAACCY/xJU6OzUDM-8/s1600/walker-evans-depression-fashion-sharecroppers-family-hale-county-alabama-1935.jpg[/image]
-
What Im reading above is nuts. We shouldnt be in a country where kids or families are hungry anyway. Feed the kids lunch you badger chodes.
-
-
