[amyelizabethbarrett28_711]

That exam was a bear to prepare for and nerve wracking as hell.  But I believe it was an excellent way to gauge whether or not an examinee would be a competent radiologist.  

[pranav.devata]

Must be a lot of board Examiners b#tching aboout not getting their vacation to Louisville each year. And the bump on the CV as Board Examiner. I think the Oral Boards was NOT a good measure of the quality of candidate. BUT the preparation for taking the oral boards absolutely made us all better rads. The old OB was extremely subjective/biased. I had a neuro guy who started out of the gates as a huge DB and was very aggressively irritable (his personality, or because it was the afternoon of the final day?). One of my classmates was a quite attractive lady and she skated through all of her rooms; by her own admission it seemed like they “took it easy on her”. She had friends from previous years tell her to wear a short skirt and smile a lot. Another classmate failed after calling a BIRADS-3. Yeah, we all were told to never say that in OB, but in practice we use it all the freaking time. I think the pressure of having to study for the OB will be good. I do not think the experience will be much better. Having a zoom conference with multiple examiners and presumed $hitty resolution…ugh.

[khodadadi_babak89]

Quote from dysdiadochokinesia

Must be a lot of board Examiners b#tching aboout not getting their vacation to Louisville each year. And the bump on the CV as Board Examiner.

Yeah, Louisville is high on my list of places I want to go to vacation and [strike]sit by the pool  [/strike]  sit in a hotel room for 7 hours, followed by hours of meetings to discuss the candidates.

I think the Oral Boards was NOT a good measure of the quality of candidate. BUT the preparation for taking the oral boards absolutely made us all better rads. The old OB was extremely subjective/biased. I had a neuro guy who started out of the gates as a huge DB and was very aggressively irritable (his personality, or because it was the afternoon of the final day?).

And I disagree. my examiners were quite fair, and there were observers in two of the rooms checking on the examiners. I am aware of people who were TOO stringent, and they were not invited back

One of my classmates was a quite attractive lady and she skated through all of her rooms; by her own admission it seemed like they “took it easy on her”. She had friends from previous years tell her to wear a short skirt and smile a lot.

Perhaps. There is another hypothesis. She is good. My ex-wife is quite attractive, when she was taking the boards she skated through. So happens, she is one of the brightest radiologists I know.

Another classmate failed after calling a BIRADS-3. Yeah, we all were told to never say that in OB, but in practice we use it all the freaking time.

I use it once per year, only with the approval of the patient. My philosophy is “just make yourself decide”. BIRADS 3 is a copout. The “correlate clinically” of breast radiology.

I think the pressure of having to study for the OB will be good. I do not think the experience will be much better. Having a zoom conference with multiple examiners and presumed $hitty resolution…ugh.

The old test also helped you learn how to present yourself professionally. That is a skill that was (is?) important. 

[pranav.devata]

Everyone had their own experience with oral boards. Mine was not good. I had a couple of what could be described as “extremely cranky” examiners. They are people too and who knows what was going on in their lives, but it was NOT a good experience by any means. I ended up conditioning and when I went back to Louisville, the examiner spent most of my time telling me they didn’t understand how I conditioned. I took rapid fire cases and then chatted with the examiners for literally half of the allotted time.  They agreed there were some examiners who were not pleasant.  Incidentally, the neuro guy who was the biggest a-hole was apparently known for that (from one of my friends who came from a very prestigious residency program and it was apparently common knowledge among their faculty) and he was not invited back the following year (also from my friend).  The point is that while the prep for oral boards definitely helps, I maintain that the actual examination does not. And I disagree that “it helps you prepare and present yourself in a professional manner”. If memory serves me: no one was allowed to speak,  a young woman walked down the hall with a gong, we knocked on a hotel room door, walked into a strange dark room with a complete stranger who may or may not say a word to us, then proceeded to rattle off differential diagnoses, and they would silently click on new cases. The bell would ring and we would get up and say thank you and walk to the next dark hotel room with a different stranger.  You know, like real life. 

[pranav.devata]

My attractive classmate was/is a good radiologist. I have no doubt she could pass with her knowledge/skill. That doesn’t change the fact that her female friends who previously took the oral boards told her to wear a short skirt and smile a lot. How would they have come to that decision without some historical basis?

[Unknown Member]

Quote from dysdiadochokinesia

her female friends who previously took the oral boards told her to wear a short skirt and smile a lot. 

 
A female resident from a sunny state told me it wasn’t just her friends, it was the attendings who told all the female residents to do it because it worked.

[adrianoal]

For oral boards, as with many things, the anticipation was the worst part. However, as others have stated the board prep was invaluable. And, without the oral boards, would not have had such thorough board prep.
 
I did have one bump: in MSK was shown wrist X-ray and examiner kept trying to guide me to give a specific term to describe the normal configuration. I had no idea, and he finally moved on. After the exam was talking to friends and they said “arcs of Giliula! And that was Gilula …”  Somehow that term had never stuck for me, but fortunately he was a reasonable guy and did not fail me.
 
 
 

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from RadJedi

Quote from dysdiadochokinesia

her female friends who previously took the oral boards told her to wear a short skirt and smile a lot. 

A female resident from a sunny state told me it wasn’t just her friends, it was the attendings who told all the female residents to do it because it worked.

Maybe the examiners should be required to take and pass an implicit bias course before being approved as examiners.
 
 

[Unknown Member]

The ABR had it right with the oral exam, and it doesn’t surprise me that they are returning to it.  The mistake was “fixing” something that wasn’t broken…
 
So many benefits:
 
The Exam put the fear of God in most of us, so we actually [i]learned [/i]what we were supposed to already [i]know [/i]by 4th year.  The thought of having the guy or gal who wrote the book you read behind you asking questions was enough to motivate most.
 
Then there’s the Skill of thinking on your feet, under pressure.  Something I do every day, all day long.  Like at tumor boards when they ask you to look at “just one more case” which you haven’t reviewed.  No pressure there, in front of all your peers.
 
Then there’s Speed at taking cases.  None of us need that anymore. You were in a hurry, but didn’t want to appear to be in a hurry.
 
And what about that small voice inside your head that says “Classic Boards Case” when you open something up to read.  Happens to me almost weekly.
 
And then I did nights this week.  Not a single case came with a Multiple Choice Option…

[satyanar]

The test was good. Sadly a few got caught up in the egos of others. 

BIRADS 3 is a baby of the ones that devised it. They are very specific for how it should be used. Most do it wrong. No surprise if an examiner dings someone who doesnt understand what they were designing. They did a lot of work to prove their statistical model. 

[tureckibalet_476]

Is there any objective data that radiologist doing oral boards perform any better than those that took the computer based certifying exam? If not then why make the change?

[RT340067]

I feel like the only people who want the oral boards are boomers. Everyone of my generation that I have talked to (current fellow) thinks this is a stupid idea. 

[Unknown Member]

Its a good idea, although its not clear exactly how it will work. Is it by zoom? Its a more realistic assessment of ability, provided your examiner is not unfair. One is not supposed to be a star, just minimum acceptable competence.

[Unknown Member]

Does anything the ABR do backed up by level 1 evidenceno.
Its a good idea, although its not clear exactly how it will work. Is it by zoom?
In person is a more realistic assessment of ability, provided your examiner is not unfair. One is not supposed to be a star, just minimum acceptable competence

[tureckibalet_476]

It is a good idea by what objective metric? Just because you think something is a good idea doesn’t mean it actually has any merit.

[ruszja]

Yes !

[ruszja]

Quote from stephenhumes

The ABR had it right with the oral exam, and it doesn’t surprise me that they are returning to it.  The mistake was “fixing” something that wasn’t broken…

So many benefits:

The Exam put the fear of God in most of us, so we actually [i]learned [/i]what we were supposed to already [i]know [/i]by 4th year.  The thought of having the guy or gal who wrote the book you read behind you asking questions was enough to motivate most.

Then there’s the Skill of thinking on your feet, under pressure.  Something I do every day, all day long.  Like at tumor boards when they ask you to look at “just one more case” which you haven’t reviewed.  No pressure there, in front of all your peers.

Then there’s Speed at taking cases.  None of us need that anymore. You were in a hurry, but didn’t want to appear to be in a hurry.

And what about that small voice inside your head that says “Classic Boards Case” when you open something up to read.  Happens to me almost weekly.

And then I did nights this week.  Not a single case came with a Multiple Choice Option…

 
All of this.
 
The only place where I encounter a multiple choice answer in my daily work is when reporting out mammos on a structured reporting system.
 
The oral boards the way it used to be done certainly had its warts. The facility, the non-central central location. The variability among examiners (not so much in later years when they had a set of standardized cases and couldn’t bring their own copy films to trick candidates).

Going forward, with a oral exam performed via online conference, none of these things should be an issue. I would hope that the ABR has professionals work on the test design and uses mechanisms that reduce the influence of personal bias.
 
As for the ‘mini skirt and smile’. The reason women breezed through the oral exam is because they studied and knew their stuff. I don’t recall any mini skirts, just everyone in professional attire and a bit tense in the morning.

[tureckibalet_476]

Changing the board format yet again delegitimizes the entire process.  By going back to oral boards the ABR is implicitly saying that the board certification of those certified in the previous manner is not good enough. The ABR has also been a terrible steward of all the fees that I have paid over the course of my career.  They spent 10s of millions on testing centers that are no longer going to be used for their intended purposes. They are going to spend millions more rolling this new oral board format out.  I want a refund. 

[mario.mtz30_447]

The days of the infamous CNN Gary Becker interview.  That was the time orals were changed to multiple choice.  What was the underlying reason for the switch?   Money?  How much does it actually cost to create and administer multiple choice exams?  Wonder what an independent audit would reveal.  I want a refund.

 

[mario.mtz30_447]

The days of the infamous CNN Gary Becker interview.  That was the time orals were changed to multiple choice.  What was the underlying reason for the switch?   Money?  How much does it actually cost to create and administer multiple choice exams?  Wonder what an independent audit would reveal.  Or could the ABR do their own review and audit and issue refunds if appropriate?
 
 
 

[stlmchenry_510]

Its ok. I think he just got that confused with the exam his mom had to pass before she could start serving at Hooters.

[stlmchenry_510]

Um no. There was not a single short skirt when I took the exam, and I think this would have actually worked against the examinee. Peace.

[satyanar]

I wonder how the cases will be presented and how the candidate is expected to describe them. Are we going back to teaching residents board technique?

[ruszja]

Quote from W24

Maybe the examiners should be required to take and pass an implicit bias course before being approved as examiners.

This will start in 2028. I anticipate that the ABR will be able to recruit a diverse group of examiners. As most of them are from academia, they will already live and breathe the correct implicit bias language.

My wife is a oral board examiner in her surgical specialty. There were several rounds of training including training on implicit bias. The first exam day she was an observer, the second day she was paired with a experienced examiner. With covid it was all moved online. After polling the examiners, nobody wanted to go back to in-person exams. Contrary to popular resident belief, traveling across the country to spend 3 days at a hotel is not some fun junket but just another trip you have to fit into your conference and professional society business schedule.
 
They use a custom build of MS Teams and the IT provider the board hired set it up and tested everything in the week leading up to exam day. They had a test session with the examiners and a tech person acting as the examinee.  They wanted a separate account on your PC with a clean desktop so you only had the teams session and their support software running. During the mock session they also ran a network analysis software to make sure you had sufficient bandwidth, latency and firewall permissions. During the exam, there are senior examiners who can peek into the exam rooms for their assigned subspecialty and observe the interaction. Prior to the exam, there is a set of agreed upon items the examinee has to mention to get a pass. This avoids the stuff we used to have with the oral boards were oral examinrs had their little foibles and expected examinees to name some eponymous ‘sign’ that may have only been in use at their individual institution. At the end of the exam day, there is a grading conference on each examinee.

I don’t see much in terms technical hurdles to get this done. Put the cases on a web based PACS, set standards for monitor quality and network parameters. Any PACS capable PC on a hospital network should do.

[pranav.devata]

The BIRADS 3 thing…you claim to use it once per YEAR and only after getting approval from the patient? I have to think you are an outlier there. Maybe I’m wrong, but that makes me think you biopsy a heck of a lot of benign things, or you assume that the probably benign nodule won’t change too much in 12 months compared to 6? There are definitely a wide spectrum of mammo guys/gals out there. My wife had 5 fibroadenomas biopsied at the same time. Every single one of them looked exactly what you would expect a fibroadenoma to look like, but the mammographer said her breasts were “complex” and they should biopsy every nodule. Blew my mind.
 
We routinely use BIRADS 3 for complex/irregular cysts/ducts or fibroadenomas that look a little funny for one reason or another, or maybe a subtle change in calcs without any cluster, for example.

[khodadadi_babak89]

Quote from dysdiadochokinesia

The BIRADS 3 thing…you claim to use it once per YEAR and only after getting approval from the patient? I have to think you are an outlier there. Maybe I’m wrong, but that makes me think you biopsy a heck of a lot of benign things, or you assume that the probably benign nodule won’t change too much in 12 months compared to 6? There are definitely a wide spectrum of mammo guys/gals out there. My wife had 5 fibroadenomas biopsied at the same time. Every single one of them looked exactly what you would expect a fibroadenoma to look like, but the mammographer said her breasts were “complex” and they should biopsy every nodule. Blew my mind.

We routinely use BIRADS 3 for complex/irregular cysts/ducts or fibroadenomas that look a little funny for one reason or another, or maybe a subtle change in calcs without any cluster, for example.

I may be an outlier. statistics would imply I am, but it is not without years of consideration and watching the system work.

First – when birads three was first used, you were SUPPOSED to follow the lesion every 6 months for 3 years. If there was any change – then biopsy. 
My observation – most people who got this were seen maybe for 2 periods and then dropped. Sometimes your partner disagreed, and changed it to a 2 or a 4. Sometimes, people just seemed to lose interest. I followed up on a number of these and could find none -not one – who was followed for the entire period. 

Then – The cost of three years of follow up is a good deal more than doing a biopsy. And less definitive, And psychologically damaging to the patient, having to endure the anxiety 6 times. 

so, when I talk to patients about this, it goes like this: I see this, and it has a low likelihood of being cancer. Somewhere under 2%. I do think it is somewhat suspicious, and so something needs to be done. We have two choices: we can have you come back every six months for three years to be sure it doesn’t change, or we can biopsy it now. Biopsy is quick, almost painless, and definitive, you will know a final answer in 3 days. I can go either way, what is your preference. 

And of course, most chose biopsy. 

FWIW _ my statistics were just fine – right down the middle. 

[Unknown Member]

Who is going to give the exam if it is online and at the candidates preferred location?

Yeah, back in the day, orals was a bitch, in that dark hotel. Slept about 1 hour the night before, but passed all sections. 

[btomba_77]

Anyone who thinks that the examiners’ week in Louisville at the Executive West was some kind of party junket vacation doesn’t know just how exhausting and painful a week that was.
 
 
 
 

[arg2626]

If this is to replace the certifying exam, what a pain it is going to be…  Stress of being a new attending and studying for the exam. Also, as an attending, you’ll not have a close group fellow residents to quiz each other, the way folks used to study for orals.

[smfst7_929]

Supposedly you get on the job training and participate in tumor boards. Should be enough if this is a bread and butter exam.

[22002469]

Quote from MRItech

If this is to replace the certifying exam, what a pain it is going to be…  Stress of being a new attending and studying for the exam. Also, as an attending, you’ll not have a close group fellow residents to quiz each other, the way folks used to study for orals.

 
Agree this is a bit awkward.
 
Prep for oral exams definitely would be better in a residency setting for a variety of reasons.

[buckeyeguy]

Oral board exam is … online?

[khodadadi_babak89]

Quote from MRItech

If this is to replace the certifying exam, what a pain it is going to be…  Stress of being a new attending and studying for the exam. Also, as an attending, you’ll not have a close group fellow residents to quiz each other, the way folks used to study for orals.

yeah, it should be moved back to June. I have heard it was moved to the next year so that seniors wouldn’t make themselves absent fro 6 months. I never did that, but some do. I just maintained my 4 hour a night study schedule that I had had from the beginning. 
 

[btomba_77]

I think I might apply to be an MSK examiner.  I was thinking about it way back when … then they got rid of it.
 
Maybe I’m not too old to do it for a few years. (Although I’ll be 60 by the time the first set of residents sit for the exam)

[melikabukvic]

The other reason the certifying exam was moved later is so that they could charge higher fees for an additional year.

[mario.mtz30_447]

[link=https://www.theabr.org/beam/from-the-executive-director-april-2023]https://www.theabr.org/beam/from-the-executive-director-april-2023[/link]

[b]The process was prompted by concerns, frequently voiced by practice leaders in academic and nonacademic settings, that focused on two major themes. First, the multiple-choice exam (currently administered 15 months after graduation from residency) does not adequately assess specific skills that are critical to the practice of diagnostic radiology. Second, the comprehensive nature of modern radiology practice is not reflected in an exam that emphasizes subspecialty content.[/b]
 
 
So why the switch before from orals to multiple choice?  The years long transition was a disaster, and so now finally after 20 years they want to revert back?
 
As to their point #2 above, then why not just have the exam at the end of 4th year so everyone can do their fellowship or work without the exam hanging over their head for another year?  Now that they want to de-emphasize subspecialty knowledge.

[mario.mtz30_447]

And where is the proactive transparent disclosure about whats going to now happen to the expensive testing centers we all paid for from this nonprofit organization?  

[22002469]

After looking into this more, I’m surprised at the significant fundamental nature of this change (someone correct me if I’m wrong on the details).
 
Since the broad Core Exam is staying the same during residency, this new Oral Exam is taking the place of the multiple choice Certifying Exam that has been taken 15 months after residency (after fellowship, early into 1st job). That test currently has a brief “general” section and then 3 sections you could choose (all in 1 specialty if you want).  
 
But according to the ABR, the new Oral Board exam will mirror the previous Oral Board exam in breadth/content, not the current Certifying Exam. It will have 7 mandatory sections including Breast, Chest, Abdomen, MSK, Nucs, Peds, and Neuro.
 
This test will be taken in the calendar year after finishing residency. So I guess during the 2nd half of fellowship? Or I maybe you can choose to do it when you’re starting your first job?
 
Talk about a massive paradigm shift. People have to be doing mock oral boards in all 7 specialties during their fellowship? Or right after?  Huge difference in expectations for 4th year residents/fellows compared to the current set-up. 
 
I guess that could be good, but it’s also a major change. Fellowship directors might not love this. 
 
 
 

[mario.mtz30_447]

Which is another reason why this new oral exam should be taken during residency, not during fellowship.
 
The exam should be a reflection of what is learned in residency, putting it all together.  If the exam is taken during fellowship, youre going to get shi**y mock oral board review sessions because which attendings during fellowship are going to want to do a good job giving review sessions to all these fellows in other sub specialties they dont even know?
 
Come on, ABR, think this through this time, impress us.  Please.
 
 

[22002469]

Quote from W24

Which is another reason why this new oral exam should be taken during residency, not during fellowship.

The exam should be a reflection of what is learned in residency, putting it all together.  If the exam is taken during fellowship, youre going to get shi**y mock oral board review sessions because which attendings during fellowship are going to want to do a good job giving review sessions to all these fellows in other sub specialties they dont even know?

Come on, ABR, think this through this time, impress us.  Please.

 
I guess all the fellows will be going to the resident hot seat conferences and studying with strangers. 
 
A central purpose of the Certifying Exam (I thought) was to match the trend toward subspecialization. That’s why there is a brief general section, then you choose the other 3 modules. And that’s why it wasn’t too cumbersome to take well after residency. 
 
But taking something akin to the prior oral boards well after residency is… a strange plot twist. 
 
 

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Radsoxfan

A central purpose of the Certifying Exam (I thought) was to match the trend toward subspecialization. That’s why there is a brief general section, then you choose the other 3 modules. And that’s why it wasn’t too cumbersome to take well after residency. 

 
Sounds like they are reversing course
 
the comprehensive nature of modern radiology practice is not reflected in an exam that emphasizes subspecialty content. This sentiment was consistently confirmed by most of the individuals who offered valuable input in a series of discussions last summer, augmented with a public online survey.

[link=https://www.theabr.org/beam/from-the-executive-director-april-2023]https://www.theabr.org/beam/from-the-executive-director-april-2023[/link]
 
 

[22002469]

Quote from W24

Sounds like they are reversing course

the comprehensive nature of modern radiology practice is not reflected in an exam that emphasizes subspecialty content. This sentiment was consistently confirmed by most of the individuals who offered valuable input in a series of discussions last summer, augmented with a public online survey.

[link=https://www.theabr.org/beam/from-the-executive-director-april-2023]https://www.theabr.org/beam/from-the-executive-director-april-2023[/link]

 
Certainly does sound like that. Perhaps for the best, hard to say.
 
But it’s odd to keep the Core and not put the burden of preparing for this broad all-encompassing oral exam on the programs that are supposed to be teaching you that broad, all-encompassing material. 
 
If they want to do an oral exam similar to the previous one they should probably just go back to the way things were (minus Louisville).

[ruszja]

Quote from Radsoxfan

If they want to do an oral exam similar to the previous one they should probably just go back to the way things were (minus Louisville).

Programs with high pass rates didn’t get enough slave labour out of the 4th years. They’ll never go back.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from fw

Quote from Radsoxfan

If they want to do an oral exam similar to the previous one they should probably just go back to the way things were (minus Louisville).

Programs with high pass rates didn’t get enough slave labour out of the 4th years. They’ll never go back.

Fellows usually have more responsibility for running the section than 4th yr residents.  

[william.wang_997]

Wonder if this is a also plan to deter midlevels creeping in  and keeping check on people wanting to disappear in telerads.
 

 
 
 

[ruszja]

Quote from Radsoxfan

But taking something akin to the prior oral boards well after residency is… a strange plot twist. 

 
That’s how oral boards work in surgical specialties. Some are 2-3 years into practice. In ortho you bring your own cases that you then get quizzed on by the board examiner.

[btomba_77]

Quote from fw

Quote from Radsoxfan

But taking something akin to the prior oral boards well after residency is… a strange plot twist. 

That’s how oral boards work in surgical specialties. Some are 2-3 years into practice. In ortho you bring your own cases that you then get quizzed on by the board examiner.

Yep. I’ve been helping young ortho attendings with some of imaging side of their cases for many years.
 
 
(I’d prefer that if they’re going to go back to oral for rads that they also revert to the old timeline and do it at the end of the R4 year … but agree with fw that it’s unlikely to go that way because programs want work out of the senior residents, not 7 hours of study time per day)

[22002469]

Quote from fw

Quote from Radsoxfan

But taking something akin to the prior oral boards well after residency is… a strange plot twist. 

That’s how oral boards work in surgical specialties. Some are 2-3 years into practice. In ortho you bring your own cases that you then get quizzed on by the board examiner.

 
No doubt, I’m sure that’s why the ABR thinks this is a reasonable plan. Perhaps it is, though I always thought it was a feature not a bug that radiology boards were towards the end of residency. 
 
Radiology also requires a much broader knowledge base than many of the surgical specialities so asking someone to do oral boards in everything after a year of mini-fellowships and a year of fellowship is going to be difficult, especially without the help of residency and classmates. People are going to have to keep up with a lot of material 2-3 years after having done the rotations.
 
Changing the certifying exam from a narrow “pick your sections multiple choice test” to an “all of radiology oral exam” is just a wildly different approach to becoming a board certified radiologist. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

Its a better test for its intended purpose.

The test centers were going to become obsolete sooner than later.

[lulie]

I say move the oral back to June of the final year of residency. I also say go back to a pure physics exam day 1 and a diagnostic test day 2 in September of the final year. Basically go back to the old way. It was a good way and never should have changed. Also move the oral back to in person in Louisville. Just because zoom internet is available, it is not the best way.

[seb_arrosa_904]

The ABR needs to justify its existence.  The only thing the Boards assess is current retained ezoteric knowledge and the abiltity to know how to take a test and pass with minimal assessment of a radiologist’s competence in the real world.  

[mircea.cg_544]

The math to this is simple. Boomers and follow the money.

[Unknown Member]

I remember when the examiner showed me a dwarf

[Radscatter]

This seems like a way to get more work out of 4th year residents by pushing the oral boards until after training is done. No more letting 4th years spend half the year studying

[al.georgiev_193]

I think the ABR board members need to do a few more all-expense paid trips to Hawaii to reward themselves for making a change that no one asked for

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Suprasellar Cistern

I think the ABR board members need to do a few more all-expense paid trips to Hawaii to reward themselves for making a change that no one asked for

How do you lose 7 mil in a year by administering a multiple choice test?
 
This is a link from the front page of their own site
 
The cynic in me wonders if this is another money grab like the last change in format
 
[link=https://www.guidestar.org/profile/shared/96963ec0-2170-4c23-8eae-97167d9c7f8a]https://www.guidestar.org/profile/shared/96963ec0-2170-4c23-8eae-97167d9c7f8a[/link]

[ebshanon]

Quote from Suprasellar Cistern

I think the ABR board members need to do a few more all-expense paid trips to Hawaii to reward themselves for making a change that no one asked for

You forgot to add the 700-800k salaries and pension/slush fund to Gary Becker 
 
Im part of the crew that took all the computer exams with no orals and definitely think it was a load of crap to justify the costs of the ABR test centers.  IR oral exam was pretty fair and decent experience and was done over Zoom.   

[leonardo.campos2804]

clear example of change for change sake.  people are irrational.

[mwakamiya]

What is the word on recertifying?

[btomba_77]

i would also prefer the oral be done during the final year of residency so that rads come out of residency board certified.
 
(I would prefer in person as well )
 
 

[romacs8ae]

during my ABR exam in Louisville in 1990, my examiner – a very old and very famous Bone guy from NY (they didn’t yet call it MSK then), fell asleep during my presentation – which was in the late afternoon of the last day of the exam.  As I was talking, I heard him snoring.  Fortunately, I had already gone over all the required cases – this was probably my last case.  He woke up when the lady with the bell walked around.
I passed.
 
Also, during that exam, i stayed at the hotel the night before. Big mistake!  There was a motorcycle gathering in the parking lot of the hotel for about 2-3 hours around 11pm and the bikes were all being revved up.  Hard a hard time sleeping after that.
 
Also, my friend once told me that somebody – knowing the name(s) of some of the board examiners, would call their rooms in the middle of the night and wake them up for fun.
 

[smfst7_929]

This change could be good but seems like they cooked this up while in Hawaii after a few beers.

Bill Oh yeah we should go back to oral boards

Monica Yeah oral boards was a rite of passage

Bill What about letting people choose their sections

Monica Oh that would be too complicated for us to figure out. Lets just make everyone do it all. Itll be funny to watch neuro guys have to talk about breast mri even though theyll never ever read a breast mri or even a mammogram

Bill yeah thatll totally crack me up. Can we play a reel of the funniest oral boards examinees at next years annual meeting

Monica that would be inappropriate Bill wink wink

[ruszja]

There was nothing broken with the way the boards were done during residency. We took call throughout R4. Granted the last few rotations were cush and structured in a way that allowed you to disappear at some point. If programs truly gave people off to study, that’s on them.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from sartoriusBIG

This change could be good but seems like they cooked this up while in Hawaii after a few beers.

Bill Oh yeah we should go back to oral boards

Monica Yeah oral boards was a rite of passage

Bill What about letting people choose their sections

Monica Oh that would be too complicated for us to figure out. Lets just make everyone do it all. Itll be funny to watch neuro guys have to talk about breast mri even though theyll never ever read a breast mri or even a mammogram

Bill yeah thatll totally crack me up. Can we play a reel of the funniest oral boards examinees at next years annual meeting

Monica that would be inappropriate Bill wink wink

Hey I know!   Lets all examine here from Hawaii, we can vacation here at the same time, after the exams we can meet right here in this bar and share a few pitchers.
 
And lets give ourselves a raise, this is going to take some effort and more meetings in Hawaii to decide on the cases to show.  And dont we need the latest reliable tech?  How much should we raise the fees?

[Unknown Member]

There are specific criteria for BI-RADS 3. The science behind it is solid, it is well-accepted, and an important tool. Someone who is not using BI-RADS 3 is either unnecessarily interpreting some cancers as benign; or doing more biopsies than needed.  

[r.stolze_447]

The ABR will be giving an update Wednesday at the ARRS in Hawaii.  Potentially could be informative.  In what limited information released, the ABR has chosen to do at least two 180 degree reversals.  Hopefully will be providing more about their thought processes.

[22002469]

Quote from TAP

The ABR will be giving an update Wednesday at the ARRS in Hawaii.  Potentially could be informative.  In what limited information released, the ABR has chosen to do at least two 180 degree reversals.  Hopefully will be providing more about their thought processes.

 
Should be interesting, definitely a major reversal on a couple fronts. Perhaps for the better.
 
Seems like they don’t want to admit the recent changes were all bad, hence keeping the Core and the general timing of the Certifying Exam.
 
Unfortunately, the end result of trying to do this “half way” alteration is a bit nonsensical. If the decision has been made to go back to an all encompassing oral board exam, it really should be done towards the end of residency like it used to be. 

[btomba_77]

Just gave my first old school hot seat oral board style conference of the new era today.
 
Good times.  It’s my natural habitat for conferences 🙂

[ruszja]

Quote from dergon

Just gave my first old school hot seat oral board style conference of the new era today.

Good times.  It’s my natural habitat for conferences 🙂

Yess ! Findings hidden under the clamps, obscure eponymous signs, personal derision for minor mis-steps, anxiety and hyperventilation, sweat beads forming. Or how we call it ‘the good old days’ 🙂

[satyanar]

Quote from Flounce

There are specific criteria for BI-RADS 3. The science behind it is solid, it is well-accepted, and an important tool. Someone who is not using BI-RADS 3 is either unnecessarily interpreting some cancers as benign; or doing more biopsies than needed.  

 
Correct and therefore its appropriate for someone to condition if they use it outside of the defined criteria, in a board exam designed to test for basic understanding. 

[lulie]

Return totally to the old format.
1. Written boards in September of final year, R4. Offer it online at any approved testing center, same days for all.
2. Oral boards in June of R4. Can also be done online bit in person such as Louisville is preferrable. If online all must be done in one week, the same week for all. Offer it online at any approved testing center, private booths.
Yes, the exam in the current format is absurd. It has become a certifying exam for subspecialities rather than diagnostic radiology. If that is the intent then after the return to the oral exam, offer CAQ exams in each and every subspecialty area. 
Nothing can top the preparation of old for the 10 section oral exam, in person. These days I have seen recent residency grads pick three sections in what they believe are the easiest, regardless of their subspecialty. Here locally, 3 picked all mammo, and 2 picked 2 mammo and one GI–they felt to be the easiest. The kicker–the bulk of their practices were in MRI/CT. And yes, those who took the exam in this format took a “less of an exam” by far than those of prior. I have yet to encounter anyone who has not completely passed the certifying exam first tine around, with very , very little prep.

[stlmchenry_510]

My friends dad joked that we (women candidates) should have been the ones getting paid for being examined in mostly older mens hotel rooms all day.

[william.wang_997]

Ha ha ha
 
Ditto !!
 
 
 

Quote from vonbraun

Who is going to give the exam if it is online and at the candidates preferred location?

Yeah, back in the day, orals was a ****, in that dark hotel. Slept about 1 hour the night before, but passed all sections. 

[aldoctc]

Remember a while ago I met a rad at a conference from Louisville.  He said that recruiting rads to Louisville is challenging b/c a sizeable cohort never want to go back after oral boards.  Said he could count me as one, and my experience wasn’t even that bad.  
 
Planning a road trip this summer with a stop in Louisville.  Told my GF that if I start acting weird (e.g. rattling off differentials when I’m sleeping/dreaming) that it’s likely a forme fruste of PTSD from having taken oral boards in Louisville, LOL.  
 

[Unknown Member]

Quote from dergon

As part of continuing efforts to improve testing, particularly in light of technologic advancements implemented during the pandemic, the new DR Oral Exam will be an online exam taken in a location of the candidates choosing.

 
Does this mean any place with a camera and a computer? Or will there be proctors at selected facilities across the US? 
 
If it’s the former, how do you prevent cheating? You could pay a genius friend to stand outside the view of the camera and write answers down on paper/ipad and hold it up for the examinee to view and repeat.

[afazio.uk_887]

Gasp…. I actually enjoyed preping for board and taking the oral board back in the day.  
 
It wasn’t easy by any means but one or two sections I recall I absolutely crushed the cases (MSK I recall vividly) and it was a fantastic high. 
 
I’ll never forget the last case my examiner threw up with just a few seconds left – Vit D dependent rickets…. Dr Dong nailed it in half a second due to seeing it the week before in board drills….. 
 
Good memories if I am being honest.