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US and Cuba to restore diplomatic relations
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/us-cuba-relations.html[/url]
The United States will restore full diplomatic relations with Cuba and open an embassy in Havana for the first time in more than a half-century after the release of an American contractor held in prison for five years, American officials said Wednesday.
In a deal negotiated during 18 months of secret talks hosted largely by Canada and encouraged by Pope Francis, who hosted a final meeting at the Vatican, President Obama and President Raúl Castro of Cuba agreed in a telephone call to put aside decades of hostility to find a new relationship between the United States and the island nation just 90 minutes off the American coast.
Great-
Sailing to Havana is in my future!!Politically it could really only be done now. Give two years for the Florida politics to work their way through ahead of 2016.
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84 Replies
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Cuban Cigars?
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Sorry Kramer, no Cubans yet. They aren’t lifting the embargo.
I imagine it will be used as a bargaining tool at some point. But think of the opportunities – Cuban cigars, booze, and classic cars! Not to mention tourism-
Unfortunately they wouldn’t take Ted Cruz back in the deal…
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or Rubio given his ignorant comments after Obama made his announcement…this is positive change
Quote from Thor
Unfortunately they wouldn’t take Ted Cruz back in the deal…
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Long overdue. We have relations with north Vietnam and every oppressive dictator in central asia there is.
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I think this is great.
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[font=”arial,helvetica,sans-serif”][b][b]Anyone care to attribute the following quote? I am not sure who said it but it seems pretty definitive.[/b][/b][/font]
[b]I will maintain the embargo. It provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice: if you take significant steps toward democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations. [/b]
[b]Thats the way to bring about real change in Cuba through strong, smart and principled diplomacy.[/b]
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So should we maintain a grudge forever or maybe try and normalize relations?
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This kinda move is always going to be initially criticized by some and eventually applauded by nearly all
The republicans do not like the democrats and a democratic president getting credit for this
Long run it’s a good thing pretty much any way you look at it
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This kinda move is always going to be initially criticized by some and eventually applauded by nearly all
The republicans do not like the democrats and a democratic president getting credit for this
Long run it’s a good thing pretty much any way you look at it
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It is reasonable course, although I would have preferred to wait until Fidel passes on. This was always a personal battle between Castro and the US, and I hate to hand him anything resembling a victory.
I had previously considered visiting Cuba on a religious mission trip, but the timing never worked right. There is a small, poor, but vibrant Jewish community mainly in Havana. No doubt it will soon be much easier to travel there. Cigars, anyone? -
[link=http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-18/hillary-clinton-secretly-pushed-cuba-deal-for-years]http://www.bloombergview….ed-cuba-deal-for-years[/link]
It was mostly Hillary pushing the Obama administration.
And on the US domestic politics side of it:
[link=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/18/obama-hillary-clinton_n_6351860.html]http://www.huffingtonpost…clinton_n_6351860.html[/link]
Potential 2016 Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton knows a political gift when she sees one.
She was quick to embrace the step this week when President Barack Obama, a fellow Democrat no longer having to face an electorate, relaxed U.S. policy toward Cuba.
While assailed by Republicans opposed to restoring ties with the communist-led island, the action has the power to solidify support for Democrats among increasingly influential Latino voters and appeal to voters in farm states like Iowa eager to do business in Havana.
Obama’s unilateral move has gently shaken up the 2016 race to succeed him, exposing divisions among Republicans and possibly helping Democrats already buoyed by his decision to liberalize immigration policy.
Potential contenders Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio adhered to the traditional Republican hard line on Cuba and sharply criticized Obama. But Kentucky Senator Rand Paul, who has a libertarian streak, backed the new policy.
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How much of the new influx of $ from opening relations will end up shoring up Venezuela?
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Prop up Venezuela any more than the 64bil of annual trade (40bil imports, 24bil exports) we already do with them ?
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The Cuba deal is probably a good political move by Obama. It was bound to happen. In terms of economic impact, it is of very little value, since the Cuban economy is sclerotic after 55 years of socialism. Maybe we can use the Cuban failed experiment as a lesson of what happens to centrally controlled economies under populist demagogue leaders. This is what they have left to show for their highly touted “free health care”, “social justice” and anti-capitalism. A starving population, repression, Oxen carts and ’57 Chevys. Sounds a lot like the Democrats.
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Cuba under Batista was hardly the Paradise destroyed by Fidel. There were many people who did very well under Batista but most who did not. We know the upper class liked him, they were making out under his corrupt & violent administration.
Maybe the worst you can say about Fidel is that he wasn’t magnitudes better than Batista in many ways. -
Batista would have been a flash in the pan, replaced within a couple of years. Instead, what occurred was a Marxist transformation that ruined and impoverished a country for generations.
Some of the best stuff I have recently read about Cuba are a series of essays by Michael Totten. They are a worth while read:
[link=http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/once-great-city-Havana]http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/once-great-city-Havana[/link]
[link=http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/lost-world-part-i]http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/lost-world-part-i[/link]
[link=http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/lost-world-part-ii]http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/lost-world-part-ii[/link]
Here’s a snippet from one of the essays:[i]”Cuba was not a Third World nation before Castro seized power. Thats not hard to believe. Havana is not like San Juan, Puerto Rico, where the old part of town is relatively small. In Havana, exquisite European architecture stretches block after block after block after block for miles in every direction. The city could not possibly have been poor when it was built. It might have been a bit shabby during the pre-Castro Batista erathat wouldnt surprise mebut Eire grew up there at that time and insists that it wasnt.[/i]
[i] [/i]
[i]Havana had a prosperous economy and a middle class proportionately larger than some European countries, said. Hence the fact that over one million Europeans (and many Asians and Middle Easterners) migrated to Cuba between 1900 and 1950. When this massive wave of migration began, the population of Cuba was only around 3 million. To put these statistics in perspective: this would be the equivalent of the USA attracting 100 million immigrants over the next half century. People do not migrate in such proportions to a benighted nation. [/i]
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Come on Alda,
Flash in the pan? He was in power since 1933 when he led the [i]Revolt of the Sargeants [/i]and overthrew Machado. In 1940 he was elected President partly supported by the Communist Party till 1944. He left Cuba & returned in 1952 & overthrew that government in another coup & became President till 1959 when he was thrown out by Castro. But things were not all rosy. Yes, there was a middle class but there were many problems.
[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista[/link][h3]Economy of Cuba[/h3] Upon his seizure of power, Batista inherited a country that was relatively prosperous for Latin America. Although a third of the population still lived in poverty, Cuba was one of the five most developed countries in the region.[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-heroic-34][34][/link] In the 1950s, Cuba’s [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product]gross domestic product[/link] (GDP) per capita was roughly equal to that of Italy at the time, although Cuba’s GDP per capita was still only a sixth as large as that of the United States.[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-gonzalez-35][35][/link] Moreover, despite the fact that corruption and inequality were rife under Batista, Cuban industrial worker’s wages rose significantly.[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-gonzalez-35][35][/link] According to the [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Labor_Organization]International Labor Organization[/link], the average industrial salary in Cuba was the world’s eighth-highest in 1958, and the average agricultural wage was higher than some European nations. However, despite an array of positive indicators, in 1953, the average Cuban family only had an income of $6.00 a week, while 15 to 20 percent of the labor force were chronically unemployed, and only a third of the homes had running water.[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-JFK1960-36][36][/link]
[h3]Relationship with organized crime[/h3] Constantino Arias’ photo titled [i]Ugly American[/i], showing a 1950s Batista-era tourist in Havana, Cuba.[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-37][37][/link][link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothels]Brothels[/link] flourished. A major industry grew up around them; government officials received bribes, policemen collected protection money. Prostitutes could be seen standing in doorways, strolling the streets, or leaning from windows. One report estimated that 11,500 of them worked their trade in Havana. Beyond the outskirts of the capital, beyond the slot machines, was one of the poorest, and most beautiful countries in the Western world.
David Detzer, American journalist, after visiting Havana in the 1950s [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-38][38][/link]
In the 1950s, Havana served as “a hedonistic playground for the world’s elite”, producing sizable gambling, prostitution and drug profits for [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mafia]American Mafiosos[/link], corrupt law-enforcement officials, and their politically elected [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism]cronies[/link].[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-CubanH-39][39][/link] In fact, drugs, be it [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29]marijuana[/link] or [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine]cocaine[/link], were so plentiful at the time that one American magazine in 1950 proclaimed “Narcotics are hardly more difficult to obtain in Cuba than a shot of [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rum]rum[/link]. And only slightly more expensive.”[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#cite_note-CubanH-39][39][/link]
I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country’s policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear. [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy]U.S. President John F. Kennedy[/link], to [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Daniel]Jean Daniel[/link], October 24, 1963
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Many people fell for the Castro revolutionary propaganda (including Kennedy it seems). As we know, it is fashionable and sexy to demand change. Young people eat up the rhetoric, hence the Che Guevarra T-shirts. Much of the early Cuban socialist propaganda had an eery resemblance to the Obama “hope and change meme”. Believe me, as someone who lived it, there was no “colonization” or “humiliation”. The colonization meme is total BS. The Effects of Spanish colonization were long gone before the 50’s. As a matter of fact, there was a very fraternal and alluring attitude toward Spain. Many Cubans either had Spanish relatives or were just a few generations away from their European roots.
Castro was actually initially supported by the intellectual and academic class, before they figured out the gig. (familiar?). Many of his original supporters ended up in gulag jails or were lined up against a wall and shot.
Batista was initially democratically elected, but decided not to give up power and usurped the constitution (familiar?). He was corrupt as sin, but would have been eventually deposed, with little damage. He wasn’t the first corrupt politician, and yes, he would have been a flash in the pan.
All that being said, I think that ending the embargo is worth a try. After all glasnost opened the door to the end of communism in the Soviet Union. It may work in Cuba. -
[link=http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-us-cuba-relations-20150115-story.html#page=1]http://www.latimes.com/wo…0115-story.html#page=1[/link]
Although the U.S. law still bars normal tourism to Cuba, the new rules will allow ordinary Americans for the first time to visit under 12 broad categories without any advance U.S. government approval a change likely to open the floodgates for tourists to book their own direct flights to Havana, experts said.
U.S. visitors can state that their goal is educational, for example, and board a flight if they sign a document indicating that they intend to talk to Cubans and learn about life on the communist-run island 90 miles off Florida.
This is arguably the change with the most meaningful near-term impact, said the National Foreign Trade Council, a business advocacy group that has long pushed for a U.S. opening to the island. -
[link=http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/03/us-cuba-usa-idUSKBN0L70AQ20150203]http://www.reuters.com/ar…-idUSKBN0L70AQ20150203[/link]
Cuba wants the US to halt support for dissidents before relations can open.
– [link=http://bit.ly/1svVo6z]Cuba[/link] warned the United States on Monday that it wants American diplomats to scale back aid for Cuban dissidents before the two countries can reopen embassies in each other’s capitals.
The long-time adversaries are negotiating the restoration of diplomatic relations as a first step toward reversing more than five decades of confrontation. Officials for both governments met in Havana in January and a second round of talks is expected to be held in Washington this month.
But Cuba’s lead negotiator said in an interview broadcast on state television that if the United States wants free movement for its diplomats in Cuba, it must stop using them to support the political opposition. -
I knew it was you fredo. You broke my heart
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one of the best scenes
but I think of another scene when the wise guy tells Michael let’s take them on Mike [u]while we still got the muscle[/u]
like did Fidel’s brother say to Fidel:look we ain’t spring chickens..let’s make a deal with the US while we still got some muscleQuote from kpack123
I knew it was you fredo. You broke my heart
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv00uh1XsHs]www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv00uh1XsHs[/link]
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[link=http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/10/politics/obama-raul-castro-panama-cuba/]http://www.cnn.com/2015/0…ul-castro-panama-cuba/[/link]
Obama and Raul Castro meet and shake hands at summit.
Panama City (CNN)This was the handshake that shook the Western Hemisphere.
President Obama briefly met his Cuban counterpart, Raul Castro, on Friday night at a dinner for the dozens of Latin American leaders convening in Panama City for the Summit of the Americas.
This was historic. The two nations have barely been on speaking terms — officially — for more than 50 years.
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In related news, Senator Menendez indicted for corruption that has been well known for years.
Don’t mess with Frank Underwood. -
well Fidel is no longer with us
Quote from Noah”sArk
one of the best scenes
but I think of another scene when the wise guy tells Michael let’s take them on Mike [u]while we still got the muscle[/u]
like did Fidel’s brother say to Fidel:look we ain’t spring chickens..let’s make a deal with the US while we still got some muscleQuote from kpack123
I knew it was you fredo. You broke my heart
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv00uh1XsHs]www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv00uh1XsHs[/link]
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Quote from sentinel lymph node
well Fidel is no longer with us
SNL kind of snuck that one in there without much fanfare.
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/world/americas/fidel-castro-dies.html]Fidel Castro dead at age 90[/url] -
Bernie will be crushed.
Hurry, put the flags on half-staff.
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[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/farewell-to-cubas-brutal-big-brother/]http://www.washingtonpost…as-brutal-big-brother/[/link]
He turned Cuba into a colony of the Soviet Union and nearly caused a nuclear holocaust.
He sponsored terrorism wherever he could and allied himself with many of the worst dictators on earth.
He was responsible for so many thousands of executions and disappearances in Cuba that a precise number is hard to reckon.
He brooked no dissent and built concentration camps and prisons at an unprecedented rate, filling them to capacity, incarcerating a higher percentage of his own people than most other modern dictators, [link=http://www.amazon.com/Longest-Romance-Mainstream-Media-Castro/dp/1594036675?ie=UTF8&keywords=longest%20romance&qid=1463415725&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1]including Stalin[/link].
He condoned and encouraged torture and extrajudicial killings.
He forced nearly 20 percent of his people into exile, and prompted thousands to meet their deaths at sea, unseen and uncounted, while fleeing from him in crude vessels.
He claimed all property for himself and his henchmen, strangled food production and impoverished the vast majority of his people.
He outlawed private enterprise and labor unions, wiped out Cubas large middle class and turned Cubans into slaves of the state.
He persecuted gay people and tried to eradicate religion.
He censored all means of expression and communication.
He established a fraudulent school system that provided indoctrination rather than education, and created a two-tier health-care system, with inferior medical care for the majority of Cubans and superior care for himself and his oligarchy, and then claimed that all his repressive measures were absolutely necessary to ensure the survival of these two ostensibly free social welfare projects.
He turned Cuba into a labyrinth of ruins and established an apartheid society in which millions of foreign visitors enjoyed rights and privileges forbidden to his people.
He never apologized for any of his crimes and never stood trial for them.
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Right on point fw. That is all true. He ruined a country and wiped out a once rich culture for generations to come. He killed, incarcerated, appropriated private property, destroyed institutions and spurred an exodus of brainpower. He leaves behind a legacy of destruction and poverty. The inevitable and predictable end result of leftism, socialism and communism.
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And American backed Batista was such a jewel for Cuba while murdering Cubans and all who opposed him. Cuba has a history of coups right up until Castro.
Without Batista’s dictatorship there’d have been no Fidel. Not to mention all the prior years of American military interventions and American companies taking control of Cuban sugar & leaving the majority of Cubans poor and destitute.
Using George Will’s list of accomplishments above in fw’s post, I think you could easily replace Batista’s name and remain largely true, the difference being Batista had American support.
U.S. State Department adviser William Wieland lamented that “I know Batista is considered by many as a son of a b itch… but American interests come first… at least he was our son of a b itch.
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Quote from Frumious
And American backed Batista was such a jewel for Cuba while murdering Cubans and all who opposed him. Cuba has a history of coups right up until Castro.
Without Batista’s dictatorship there’d have been no Fidel. Not to mention all the prior years of American military interventions and American companies taking control of Cuban sugar & leaving the majority of Cubans poor and destitute.
Using George Will’s list of accomplishments above in fw’s post, I think you could easily replace Batista’s name and remain largely true, the difference being Batista had American support.
U.S. State Department adviser William Wieland lamented that “I know Batista is considered by many as a son of a b itch… but American interests come first… at least he was our son of a b itch.
If nothing else you are reliable. There has to be one fanboy for the despot on this forum and apparently you are it.
Argentina, Colombia, Chile all had despotic strongmen at one point or another. Today, their citizens are in infinitely better shape than the inmates in cuba.
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& you and yours are reliable fan boys of right-wing dictatorships, the only difference being they are “our” murderous dictatorships. The idea seems a bit too complex for you to grasp, a murdering dictator is a murdering dictator, regardless if he calls himself a Fascist or Communist or something a bit more ambiguous. You don’t cheer one on but oppose the other like sports teams. They are the same.
From JFK in 1960:
[link=http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=25660]http://www.presidency.ucs…ws/index.php?pid=25660[/link]But in the 2 years since that revolution swept Fidel Castro into power, those promises have all been broken. There have been no free elections – and there will be none as long as Castro rules. All political parties – with the exception of the Communist Party – have been destroyed. All political dissenters have been executed, imprisoned, or exiled. All academic freedom has been eliminated. All major newspapers and radio stations have been seized. And all of Cuba is in the iron grip of a Communist-oriented police state.
Castro and is gang have betrayed the ideals of the Cuban revolution and the hopes of the Cuban people.
But, if we are not to imitate the partisan irresponsibility of others, we must do more than charge that these storm signals were ignored. The real question is: What should we have done? What did we do wrong? How did we permit the Communists to establish this foothold 90 miles away?
The answer is fourfold.
First, we refused to help Cuba meet its desperate need for economic progress. In 1953 the average Cuban family had an income of $6 a week. Fifteen to twenty percent of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
Only a third of the homes in the island even had running water, and in the years which preceded the Castro revolution this abysmal standard of living was driven still lower as population expansion out-distanced economic growth.
Only 90 miles away stood the United States – their good neighbor – the richest Nation on earth – its radios and newspapers and movies spreading the story of America’s material wealth and surplus crops.
But instead of holding out a helping hand of friendship to the desperate people of Cuba, nearly all our aid was in the form of weapons assistance – assistance which merely strengthened the Batista dictatorship – assistance which completely failed to advance the economic welfare of the Cuban people – assistance which enabled Castro and the Communists to encourage the growing belief that America was indifferent to Cuban aspirations for a decent life.
This year Mr. Nixon admitted that if we had formulated a program of Latin American economic development 5 years ago: “It might have produced economic progress in Cuba which might have averted the Castro takeover.” But what Mr. Nixon neglects to mention is the fact that he was in Cuba 5 years ago himself – gaining experience. He saw the conditions. He talked with the leaders. He knew what our aid program consisted of. But his only conclusion as stated in a Havana press conference, was his statement that he was “very much impressed with the competence and stability” of the Batista dictatorship.
The third, and perhaps most disastrous of our failures, was the decision to give stature and support to one of the most bloody and repressive dictatorships in the long history of Latin American repression. Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in 7 years – a greater proportion of the Cuban population than the proportion of Americans who died in both World Wars, and he turned democratic Cuba into a complete police state – destroying every individual liberty.
Yet, our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror.
Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista – hailed him as a stanch ally and a good friend – at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections.
And regarding Chile, let’s not forget Allende was democratically elected & overthrown violently with American backing. And Chile reached out & murdered Orlando Letelier and Ronnie Moffitt on American soil in Washington DC with a car bomb.
Yes, right-wing “Democracy” and Death Squads has it’s allure to you, doesn’t it.
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Quote from Frumious
& you and yours are reliable fan boys of right-wing dictatorships, the only difference being they are “our” murderous dictatorships. The idea seems a bit too complex for you to grasp, a murdering dictator is a murdering dictator, regardless if he calls himself a Fascist or Communist or something a bit more ambiguous. You don’t cheer one on but oppose the other like sports teams. They are the same.
Yet all those evil right wing dictators (along with those in greece, spain, portugal) have since been replaced with democratic governments. Not because they were morally any ‘better’ but they didn’t install the totalitarian controls that Castro was so good at. I am familiar with life in one of those right wing dictatorships as I have a family member who lived there for a couple of decades. Wasn’t all roses and puppydogs, but unless you were a union organizer or socialist, the government left you pretty much alone.
Hating Castro doesn’t mean one has to love Batista.
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So the victims of right-wing murders are only union organizers or other socialists so it’s OK. Tell the mothers of the desaparecido that their children were only socialists or union organizers.
It doesn’t matter to me whether I’m murdered by a right-wing dictator being thrown out of a helicopter over the sea while being weighed down with chains or executed by firing squad by left-wing dictators, murder is murder. Giving it a political justification doesn’t make it any sweeter.
All the right-wing death squads in Central and Latin America weren’t doing God’s work just because they didn’t call themselves Communists. Bolivia and Argentina didn’t become richer due to the influx of fleeing Nazis after WWII.
Bottom line is that Castro is dead & deserves to rot. But he was no worse than the right-wing tradition of murder in the Americas in spite of trying to re-write history.
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Quote from Frumious
So the victims of right-wing murders are only union organizers or other socialists so it’s OK. Tell the mothers of the desaparecido that their children were only socialists or union organizers.
It doesn’t matter to me whether I’m murdered by a right-wing dictator being thrown out of a helicopter over the sea while being weighed down with chains or executed by firing squad by left-wing dictators, murder is murder. Giving it a political justification doesn’t make it any sweeter.
All the right-wing death squads in Central and Latin America weren’t doing God’s work just because they didn’t call themselves Communists. Bolivia and Argentina didn’t become richer due to the influx of fleeing Nazis after WWII.
Bottom line is that Castro is dead & deserves to rot. But he was no worse than the right-wing tradition of murder in the Americas in spite of trying to re-write history.
He was far worse because he was better at being a despot. Eventually, all those right wing crooks were replaced by democratic governments. Again, not all of them all that stable or democratic, but you can’t claim that life in brasil, argentina or portugal is worse than life in cuba.
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You mean like Spain’s Francisco Franco gave way to Democracy?
Very likely Cuba will do it the same way.
In Argentina it took years but finally some members of the Junta were brought to some justice. And Chile. Pinochet lost support as did all the other dictators.
It is not a natural process for right-wing murderers to morph into Jeffersonian democracies any more than it is for left wing.
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Quote from Frumious
You mean like Spain’s Francisco Franco gave way to Democracy?
He did.
Begrudgingly and after he received immunity.
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Um, Franco died as commander in chief and head of state of Spain.
As his final years progressed, tensions within the various factions of the [i]Movimiento[/i]would consume Spanish political life, as varying groups jockeyed for positions in order to gain control of the country’s future. The death on December 20, 1973, of prime minister [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Carrero_Blanco]Luis Carrero Blanco[/link] in a spectacular bombing by [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_(separatist_group)]ETA[/link] eventually gave an edge to the liberalizing faction. On July 19, 1974, the aged Franco fell ill from various health problems, and Juan Carlos took over as Acting Head of State. Franco soon recovered, and on September 2 he resumed his duties as Head of State. One year later he fell ill once again from more health problems including a long battle with [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_disease]Parkinson’s disease[/link]. On October 30, 1975, he fell into a [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma]coma[/link] and was put on [link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_support]life support[/link]. Franco’s family agreed to disconnect the life-support machines. Officially, he died on November 20, 1975, at the age of 82just two weeks before his 83rd birthday
Were you around then? SNL had a long-running skit with Chevy Chase on Franco’s death.
Here:
[link]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=butZyxI-PRs [/link]
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Quote from Frumious
Um, Franco died as commander in chief and head of state of Spain.
Except that he had handed the operation of the country to a prime minister and the king years earlier. He didn’t install another military junta or his little brother, he knew that eventually the country would transition to a different form of government.
Were you around then? SNL had a long-running skit with Chevy Chase on Franco’s death.
Yup, and what made the joke work was the fact that it didn’t really matter whether he was dead or alive. -
Hey please accentuate Fidel Castro’s incredible legacy of achievements. Castro’s contributions to antique automobile preservation, boat building, cigar smoking are sorely underappreciated.
And what about Cuban literacy?! Everybody needs to mention this or leave this argument!! He taught all Cubans how to read, and then to appropriately use that ability to recite parables about how great of a leader Fidel was. It is so inspirational how Castro got his own populace to read about all his great achievements in Cuba-that in a sense it is almost Cult-like!!
And what about fairness in society?! Equal outcome medicine?! A good abortionist, free bronchodilators, free sex change operations are key. Also preferentially treating the government officials, the vanguard of the proletariat, is crucial. Not everything is about strict scientific trials, sanitary hospitals, transplanting organs, cancer treatments, and advanced scanning!! Its really about keeping pious government officials and their families the healthiest, and ensuring equal outcomes for everybody else. Otherwise, how else would a sharing society stay together?! To this-please let me be a little bit religious in Cuba by saying Amen!!
And most of all-Fidel made it so loyal contributing government officials were the elites to aspire to; and definitely not some hard worker, capitalist, clever inventor, ball player or doctor. This is the real reason behind how great and fair Cuba was under Fidel. And, this is really the best way to keep his memory alive-promote more people who believe in bolstering government and equal outcomes.
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there’s some pretty funny tweets mocking Justin Trudeau who said some nice things about Castro. #trudeaueulogies
“Mr Castro inspired generation of innovative boat makers”
“Charles Manson taught us about family”
“Though a controversial figure Attila the Hun is best remembered for his love of horses and the products of civilization”
“today we say goodbye to Mr. Mussolini, the former Italian prime minister best known for his competent train-management” -
Quote from Laidback Lib
Hey please accentuate Fidel Castro’s incredible legacy of achievements. Castro’s contributions to antique automobile preservation, boat building, cigar smoking are sorely underappreciated.
Literacy rates that surpass America’s; infant mortality rates that are greater than America’s; longevity that is the same as America’s. All improved from under Batista.
And universal health care. Exporting medical knowledge to 3rd world countries.
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yes we as Americans need to look at both sides
-we finally accept that we overthrew a government in Iran and put in a dictator named the shahQuote from Frumious
Quote from Laidback Lib
Hey please accentuate Fidel Castro’s incredible legacy of achievements. Castro’s contributions to antique automobile preservation, boat building, cigar smoking are sorely underappreciated.
Literacy rates that surpass America’s; infant mortality rates that are greater than America’s; longevity that is the same as America’s. All improved from under Batista.
And universal health care. Exporting medical knowledge to 3rd world countries.
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Quote from Frumious
Quote from Laidback Lib
Hey please accentuate Fidel Castro’s incredible legacy of achievements. Castro’s contributions to antique automobile preservation, boat building, cigar smoking are sorely underappreciated.
Literacy rates that surpass America’s;
And universal health care. Exporting medical knowledge to 3rd world countries.What an inspiration my sistah Frum you have been throughout this thread. Thank you very much for your necessary heartfelt support of our Cuban commades YES— VIVA FIDEL—PARA SIEMPRE!!!
We need to breath necessary life into the tales of incredible Fidel-driven communist medicine cures. We have to ignore all the propaganda like from international agencies stating the Cuban medical system is somehow backwards and has high risk for patients seeking treatments in the Cuban socialist island paradise. Who needs sophisticated genomic treatment, cardiac implants or transplantsthey’re too bourgeoisie. Our Cuban comrades made their reputation through early 20[sup]th[/sup] century medicine (and earlier) and legions of abortionists spanning the globe. In return, Cuba gets the yankee dollar and pay the loyal doctor-soldiers 30 dollars a month to live on. Very fair and should be emulated by everybody.
Thank you for reminding us about how literate and smart the Cuban island denizens really are. We need to tell how our literate comrades on the island happily submit to intelligent guidance with their thoughts and beliefs. This is why bourgeoisie media is screened and kept from Cuban hygienic pure minds. The Cuban elite is right to limit the insidious and porous internet because it will pollute the high literate minds Fidel has carefully cultivated.
From everything you written on here you agree my Sistah Frum—Freedom is a threat damn it!! Cuba has the best degrees in Marxism theory and economy that they generously offer to so many. In fact Zimbabwe and Venezuela send many of their leaders to learn from our Cuban comrades. These countries have fair and renown economies that wouldnt even exist without Cuban expertise. And compare that to multi-millions of young misguided students from all over the world who come to the US for decades to get some engineering, scientific, management, or advanced medical degree. They are all duped ! They should come to get real education from Cuba and learn how to influence the non-believers in communism in their own countries. Our comrade Hugo Chavez did this to masterful success. Nobody can argue how he turned around the Venezuelan economy and society!!!
Frum can you believe that some call us apologists for a tyrant??!! Give me Fidels tyranny any day over the Western connivances like an air-conditioner, freedom of expression, or choices at a supermarket!!!
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So Cuba’s not 110% a bad place. Imagine that.
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Well, according to our President Fidel was a STRONG LEADER – like Putin. Authoritarians LOVE them!
So you should admire Fidel for being STRONG! Something Trump values above much else. Leadership right up your alley.
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Quote from Frumious
Literacy rates that surpass America’s; infant mortality rates that are greater than America’s; longevity that is the same as America’s. All improved from under Batista.
And universal health care. Exporting medical knowledge to 3rd world countries.
[i]”Cuba does have a very low infant mortality rate, but pregnant women are treated with very authoritarian tactics to maintain these favorable statistics,” said Tassie Katherine Hirschfeld, the chair of the department of anthropology at the University of Oklahoma who spent nine months living in Cuba to study the nation’s health system. “They are pressured to undergo abortions that they may not want if prenatal screening detects fetal abnormalities. If pregnant women develop complications, they are placed in Casas de Maternidad for monitoring, even if they would prefer to be at home. Individual doctors are pressured by their superiors to reach certain statistical targets. If there is a spike in infant mortality in a certain district, doctors may be fired. There is pressure to falsify statistics.”[/i]
[link=http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jan/31/tom-harkin/sen-tom-harkin-says-cuba-has-lower-child-mortality/]http://www.politifact.com…lower-child-mortality/[/link]
It’s much easier to maintain your infant mortality rates if you just abort all your trisomies rather than raising them. Our infant mortality rates are driven by fertility treatment and the neonatal industrial complex. A 26 weeker born in a rural hospital in Cuba is medical waste, a 26 weeker born in a rural hospital in the US gets handed to a neonatal transport PA and is loaded on a helicopter within the hour. -
Not to quibble but your objection is rated as 1/2 true.
[link=http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jan/31/tom-harkin/sen-tom-harkin-says-cuba-has-lower-child-mortality/]http://www.politifact.com…lower-child-mortality/[/link]
We did find one area of agreement: Cuba puts a lot of emphasis on its health data. Richard H Streiffer, dean of the College of Community Health Sciences at the University of Alabama, said his conclusion from two visits to Cuba is that Cuban health practitioners are “very compulsive about collecting data and reporting it regularly.”
On a recent trip, Streiffer said, he spent time with a family doctor in a neighborhood clinic. “Family doctors are mandated to collect certain data,” he said. “He had right on his wall a dashboard of data characterizing his practice — an age/sex distribution; an age/sex distribution of the top 10 chronic diseases in his practice; a map of where his patients lived in the neighborhood. You don’t find that in the US.”
However, some experts said that this obsession with statistics can be a two-edged sword when it comes to reliability. Some say Cuba is so concerned with its infant mortality and life-expectancy statistics that the government takes heavy-handed actions to protect their international rankings.
Harkin said that Cuba has “a lower child mortality rate than ours. Their life expectancy is now greater than ours.”According to the official statistics, Cuba does beat out the United States for both infant and child mortality, and on life expectancy, the data is mixed, with a slight edge to the United States. However, the combination of the Cuban governments heavy-handed enforcement of statistical targets and the lack of transparency has led some experts to suggest taking the numbers with a grain of salt. On balance, we rate Harkins claim Half True.
And in same search in Politifact turned up this regarding American infant mortality in 1 location:
[link=http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2013/apr/12/michele-walsh/expert-says-infant-mortality-rate-near-university-/]http://www.politifact.com…rate-near-university-/[/link]
Public health experts consider the infant mortality rate an important indicator of a community’s well-being. It is one of the factors that helped land Cuyahoga County in the bottom third of Ohio counties in overall health in a national study released last month by the University of Wisconsin Population Health Institute and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.
Cuyahoga, with its major health centers, performed well again on access to primary care in the annual study. But major health centers can’t compensate for poverty and the other, often related stressors that contribute to the high infant mortality of Northeast Ohio.
Ohio’s rate of infant mortality — 7.7 deaths per 1,000 live births in the first year of life — is 11th-worst in the nation, said a public radio report on the subject on WCPN’s “Sound of Ideas.”
The most recent rate reported for Cuyahoga County was a dismal 9.1 deaths, according to the Ohio Department of Health, and the average from 2006 to 2010 was 9.7.
“Within the three miles surrounding the University Circle area, infant mortality exceeds some Third World countries,” she said, “and that is an embarrassment and cannot be allowed to continue.”PolitiFact Ohio agreed that the rate would be alarming.
To stay within three miles of University Circle, we looked at data for neighborhoods on Cleveland’s East Side.We found that two neighborhoods, Hough and Mount Pleasant, had infant mortality rates above 27 per 1,000 — worse than in North Korea, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Samoa, Maldives or the Gaza Strip.
Two other neighborhoods — Kinsman (with an infant mortality rate of 31 per 1,000) and South Collinwood (29) — had infant mortality worse than was reported in Zimbabwe.
Infant mortality in the University Circle neighborhood, according to the NEO CANDO database, was slightly above 69 deaths per 1,000 live births. That exceeds the rate in countries that include, among others, Bangladesh, Haiti, Burma, Cameroon, Djibouti, Sudan, Kenya, Nepal, Pakistan, Rwanda and Uganda.
That number struck us as both anomalous and staggering. We looked for an explanation and got one from researcher Richard Stacklin of the Cuyahoga County Board of Health.
The rate for University Circle, he said, reflected the neighborhoods small statistical base in 2009 of 43 births and 3 infant deaths. He said its most recent three-year average — a preferable statistic for the neighborhood because it better accounts for fluctuations — is 18.6 deaths, a figure he noted is still unacceptable and almost double the countywide rate.
The average rate worldwide, according to the “World Factbook,” is 39.4 per 1,000.
The book estimates infant mortality in the United States in 2012 as 6 deaths per 1,000 births — worse than the average for nations of the European Union and worse than countries including Australia, South Korea and Cuba.
Its figures show that some Third World nations have infant mortality rates that are exceeded by those for some neighborhoods within three miles of University Circle.
Walshs statement rates as True.
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that’s just right around the corner. They’re naming neighborhoods just down the street from Rainbow Babies & Childrens hospital and CCF. What they’re not painting is that those are basically ghetto ganglands. I’ve seen more pregnant ladies smoking cigarettes than anyone should ever have to.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
that’s just right around the corner. They’re naming neighborhoods just down the street from Rainbow Babies & Childrens hospital and CCF. What they’re not painting is that those are basically ghetto ganglands. I’ve seen more pregnant ladies smoking cigarettes than anyone should ever have to.
It is not suprising that those neighborhoods have third world child mortality rates. Fun with numbers. -
and let’s not forget America’s role in getting the shah of Iran in power who was not Muslim
Iran is in a much stronger position than Cuba to respond to any Trump administration actionsQuote from Frumious
And American backed Batista was such a jewel for Cuba while murdering Cubans and all who opposed him. Cuba has a history of coups right up until Castro.
Without Batista’s dictatorship there’d have been no Fidel. Not to mention all the prior years of American military interventions and American companies taking control of Cuban sugar & leaving the majority of Cubans poor and destitute.
Using George Will’s list of accomplishments above in fw’s post, I think you could easily replace Batista’s name and remain largely true, the difference being Batista had American support.
U.S. State Department adviser William Wieland lamented that “I know Batista is considered by many as a son of a b itch… but American interests come first… at least he was our son of a b itch.
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HRC work–like the Iran deal where she got sanctions on Iran to get them to the table-but others get the accomplishment
Quote from dergon
[link=http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-18/hillary-clinton-secretly-pushed-cuba-deal-for-years]http://www.bloombergview….ed-cuba-deal-for-years[/link]
It was mostly Hillary pushing the Obama administration.
And on the US domestic politics side of it:
[link=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/18/obama-hillary-clinton_n_6351860.html]http://www.huffingtonpost…clinton_n_6351860.html[/link]
Potential 2016 Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton knows a political gift when she sees one.
She was quick to embrace the step this week when President Barack Obama, a fellow Democrat no longer having to face an electorate, relaxed U.S. policy toward Cuba.
While assailed by Republicans opposed to restoring ties with the communist-led island, the action has the power to solidify support for Democrats among increasingly influential Latino voters and appeal to voters in farm states like Iowa eager to do business in Havana.
Obama’s unilateral move has gently shaken up the 2016 race to succeed him, exposing divisions among Republicans and possibly helping Democrats already buoyed by his decision to liberalize immigration policy.
Potential contenders Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio adhered to the traditional Republican hard line on Cuba and sharply criticized Obama. But Kentucky Senator Rand Paul, who has a libertarian streak, backed the new policy.
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my Jamaican friend who lives in Cali plans a summer trip to Cuba and then on to Jamaica..she told me her grandmother is of Russian Jewish descent and had fled to Cuba when all hell broke out in Europe
Quote from DoctorDalai
It is reasonable course, although I would have preferred to wait until Fidel passes on. This was always a personal battle between Castro and the US, and I hate to hand him anything resembling a victory.
I had previously considered visiting Cuba on a religious mission trip, but the timing never worked right. There is a small, poor, but vibrant Jewish community mainly in Havana. No doubt it will soon be much easier to travel there. Cigars, anyone?
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Cool photo of Air Force One coming in for the landing
[link=http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/air-force-one-arrives-over-havana-in-historic-moment-1766120085]http://foxtrotalpha.jalop…oric-moment-1766120085[/link]
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[url=http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/05/06/404648523/u-s-approves-ferry-service-from-florida-to-cuba]
[h1]U.S. Approves Ferry Service From Florida To Cuba[/url][/h1]The United States issued licenses for ferry service between the United States and Cuba for the first time in five decades.
[link=http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/tourism/fl-havana-ferry-approval-20150505-story.html]The South Florida Sun-Sentinel reports[/link] the Treasury Department issued at least four licenses to companies that want to establish ferry service to Cuba from Key West, Miami, Fort Lauderdale and perhaps even Tampa.
$250 round trip with 200lb cargo limit -
[url=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/29/cuba-removed-from-us-terror-sponsor-list/]US removes Cuba from state sponsors of terrorism list[/url]
Secretary of State John Kerry signed off on rescinding Cuba’s “state sponsor of terrorism” designation exactly 45 days after the Obama administration informed Congress of its intent to do so on April 14. Lawmakers had that amount of time to weigh in and try to block the move, but did not do so.
“The 45-day congressional pre-notification period has expired, and the secretary of state has made the final decision to rescind Cuba’s designation as a state sponsor of terrorism, effective today, May 29, 2015,” the State Department said in a statement.
“While the United States has significant concerns and disagreements with a wide range of Cuba’s policies and actions, these fall outside the criteria relevant to the rescission of a state sponsor of terrorism designation,” the statement said.
This paves the way for re-establishing normalized diplomatic relations.
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Soon there will be a pizza joint and McDonalds or worse StarBucks on each corner..
It was a great place to visit now it will loose its quirky and quaint feel to it-
Trump casino/tower–when the President does it?
Quote from PACS DRONE
Soon there will be a pizza joint and McDonalds or worse StarBucks on each corner..
It was a great place to visit now it will loose its quirky and quaint feel to it-
Political article–Meyer Lanskey went to the FBI and told them Castro was a Marxist
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[url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-obama-chapter-begins-us-cuba-open-embassies/story?id=32150318]President Obama: ‘New Chapter’ Begins as US, Cuba Will Open Embassies[/url]
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[url=https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/30/u-s-to-re-open-embassy-in-cuba-for-now-without-an-ambassador/]Chris Dodd floated for Ambassador to Cuba[/url]
{I}n recent days, former Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.) has been floated as a potential leading candidate for a job that will be among the highest-profile State Department missions for the rest of Obamas term. Dodd was an early proponent of relaxing sanctions on Cuba.
A senior administration official did not immediately respond when asked whether Dodd was on the shortlist, and several officials said a decision about who would serve as ambassador was not imminent.
Obama announced the embassy openings in brief remarks to reporters in the White House Rose Garden about an hour after Cubas Foreign Ministry confirmed it will unshutter its diplomatic mission in Washington. The moves are part of an effort, to be formalized July 20, to broaden diplomatic relations between the two nations, which cut their ties in 1961.
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I saw a little bit of Shark Week last night. Apparently they’ve already got a TV show coming out called Cuban Chrome which looks like it’s about Cuban classic cars.
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[link=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/20/cuba-embassy-washington-flag]http://www.theguardian.co…mbassy-washington-flag[/link]
Diplomatic relations between the US and Cuba have been officially restored, with Cubas foreign minister taking the hugely symbolic step of raising his countrys flag at a newly designated embassy in Washington later on Monday.
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historic day
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[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/18/us-cuba-usa-trade-idUSKCN0RI1EF20150918]
Obama chips away at Cuba embargo, easing business and travel rules[/url][/h1]
The regulatory changes will allow certain U.S. companies to establish offices on Cuba for the first time in decades, expand banking activities and eliminate limits on the amount of money that can be taken to the Communist-ruled island, U.S. officials said. The action comes as Washington and Havana move toward normal relations after more than half a century of hostility. The two countries restored diplomatic ties and reopened embassies earlier this summer.
Set to take effect on Monday, the new regulations, which President Barack Obama is implementing with his executive powers, build on others he announced in January to begin lowering economic barriers with Cuba.
But only Congress has the power to fully lift the 53-year-old economic embargo against Cuba, the main stumbling block to full normalization of ties with Havana. And Republicans who control Congress are considered unlikely to do so despite Obama’s appeals. The president also faces resistance some fellow Democrats, although most support rapprochement.-
Air Force One touches down in Havana.
Well done.
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[url=http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/27/politics/obama-cuba-ambassador/]Obama nominates Cuba ambassador, first in over half-century[/url]
President Barack Obama on Tuesday tapped the highest-ranking US diplomat in Cuba as the first ambassador to the island in more than 50 years. But deep opposition among some senators means it’s nearly impossible he’ll be confirmed before the President leaves office.
Jeffrey DeLaurentis has served as the United States’ charge d’affairs in Havana since 2014, overseeing the reopening of the US Embassy there and helping shepherd in a new era of US-Cuba ties.
Obama wrote in a statement that elevating DeLaurentis’ title to “ambassador” was a “common sense step forward toward a more normal and productive relationship between our two countries.”
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Nesweek:-Trump,Castro,Cuba
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I feel like there has to be something more we can do to help these people. I have distant relatives who have first-hand experience of the horrors of the regimes in both Cuba and Venezuela. Cuba is only 90 miles away. I feel like they could easily become an affiliate like Puerto Rico-although I dont know if this is economically feasible. I feel like theres something we can do to help them so theyre not fleeing for their lives from their own country.
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Some people mentioned we wont do much to help Cuba because we fear retaliation from Russia. I dont get this. I mean I understand Cuba is their fellow communist comrade but Cuba doesnt really seem to do much for Russia. Its not really the same situation as China. It doesnt seem like it would make a lot of logistical or economical sense for them to retaliate if the US were to overthrow the Cuban government.
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Quote from Picasso01
Some people mentioned we wont do much to help Cuba because we fear retaliation from Russia. I dont get this. I mean I understand Cuba is their fellow communist comrade but Cuba doesnt really seem to do much for Russia. Its not really the same situation as China. It doesnt seem like it would make a lot of logistical or economical sense for them to retaliate if the US were to overthrow the Cuban government.
We have a long and storied history of overthrowing governments, dictatorships & democracies. Think of Cuba which we already overthrew once which ushered in Fidel. Think of Iran which ushered in the Ayatollah after overthrowing a democratically elected government. Think of Guatemala, replacing a democratically elected government with a military dictator. Think of the Congo. Think of South Vietnam. Think of Chile. Think of Brazil. Think of Haiti. Think of Reagan & Nicaragua & Iran-Contra. In more modern terms, think of our success with Afghanistan after 20 years or Iraq after a few less years.
Most of our history is not like successes in Japan or Germany. Almost always we created and/or propped up anti-Democratic military dictatorships.-
They have to switch the paradigm on their own. In Cuba maybe that means getting rid of the Castros and their military.
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Its not just Cuba, its Venezuela and Guatemala & Nicaragua and so many other Central & South American countries. Follow the immigrant refugees trying to get in the US back to their countries & youll get the idea of how many failed states with a history of dictatorships there are in the Americas. We used to shore up these dictatorships when they simply advertised as anti-Communist regardless of the numbers of their people who died from their governments actions. Now they are just failed but still with dictatorships & the legacy of high inequality.
Umm, I forgot Haiti.
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[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/543456-2-in-3-cuban-american-voters-in-florida-opposed-to-engaging-with-havana]https://thehill.com/homen…o-engaging-with-havana[/link]
Poll finds Florida Cuban-Americans opposed to engaging with Havana[/h1]
66 percent said that they do not think [link=https://thehill.com/people/joe-biden]President Biden[/link] should revert to reengagement.
The finding marks a shift from the 51 percent in 2015 who supported then-President Obamas commitment to normalizing relations with Cuba.
Additionally, while 56 percent of Cuban-American voters in Florida supported easing restrictions on travel between the U.S. and Cuba in 2015, the same percentage in Tuesdays poll either somewhat or strongly opposed doing so.
Fernand Amandi, president of Bendixen & Amandi, [link=https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/03/16/new-poll-shows-cuban-american-voters-align-with-gop-1368365?nname=playbook-pm&nid=0000015a-dd3e-d536-a37b-dd7fd8af0000&nrid=0000014e-f115-dd93-ad7f-f91513e50001&nlid=964328]told Politico[/link] Tuesday that the surveys findings show a Back to the Future moment for the largest Latino voting bloc in Florida, with positions now similar to hardline views they held in the 1980s and 1990s.
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Quote from dergon
[link=https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/543456-2-in-3-cuban-american-voters-in-florida-opposed-to-engaging-with-havana]https://thehill.com/homen…o-engaging-with-havana[/link]
Poll finds Florida Cuban-Americans opposed to engaging with Havana\
Yeah, because the cuban government continued to act in bad faith.-
The Cuban people need to take control of their own future. Easier said than done but they could do a lot better.
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You mean not vote in leftists who control the vote?
Ahem, Dicom … lol, what a world you live in.-
I dont equate Cubans living under Castro to anything left or right in America.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
The Cuban people need to take control of their own future. Easier said than done but they could do a lot better.
Yes they could but Latin America has a long history of a few corrupt Communist countries or corrupt mostly Right-wing dictatorships with little gray in between. Our attention is always focused on Cuba & now Venezuela, but before Castro we fully supported the corrupt Right-wing dictatorship of Batista, hardly more benevolent than Castro’s regime. Not to mention supporting Right-wing dictatorships in Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, Guatemala and virtually every other failed or almost-failed state in Latin America. And to make things worse, we’ve exported some of our worst criminals to Latin America, making things worse by encouraging refugees from these corrupt and/or inept governments by increasing criminal gangs in those countries.
The paradigm need a big change.
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[link=https://thehill.com/latino/565705-us-expands-sanctions-in-cuba-eyes-restoring-diplomatic-presence-internet-access]US expands sanctions in Cuba, eyes restoring diplomatic presence, internet access
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The sanctions, imposed under the Global Magnitsky Act, which allows the U.S. to seek financial punishment against human rights offenders, target Cubas National Revolutionary Police along with its head Oscar Callejas Valcarce and his deputy Eddy Sierra Arias.
Fridays announcement came ahead of a White House meeting with Cuban American leaders as well as members of Congress to discuss further actions on Cuba, including expanding a U.S. diplomatic presence that was drastically reduced under the Trump administration and how to move forward with the complex process of trying to provide internet access in a country that has periodically shut down internet service in the face of the protests.
Given the protests of July 11, it is important for U.S. diplomats to engage directly with the Cuban people. And if we can do that in a way that ensures the safety of US personnel, that is something that we will undertake, a senior administration official said on a call with reporters ahead of the meeting.[/QUOTE]
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interesting take
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/11/28/democrats-biden-florida-cuba-venezuela/]Max Boot[/link]:
Florida is no longer a swing state. Thats good news for U.S. foreign policy.[/h1]
The Democrats [link=https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3731548-florida-democrats-grapple-with-uncertain-future-after-midterm-wipeout/]midterm wipeout[/link] in Florida not a single Democrat will hold statewide office next year in what was once a swing state is bad news for the party but good news for the future of U.S. foreign policy.
President Biden, with no hope of winning the state in 2024, is now free to pursue more pragmatic policies towards Cuba and Venezuela, rather than catering to politically potent constituencies of conservative Cuban Americans and Venezuelan Americans in south Florida, as administrations of both parties have been doing for decades.…
Bidens political advisers were so petrified of Cuban American and Venezuelan American voters in south Florida that for two years they left in place Donald Trumps failed policy of regime change toward Cuba and Venezuela, despite the humanitarian disasters it caused and in the end, it gained them nothing, William LeoGrande, a specialist in Latin American politics at American University, told me. His[link=https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/21/democrats-florida-republicans-cuban-american-cuba-trump-biden-obama/] article in Foreign Policy[/link] this month expressed the hope that the Democratic defeat in Florida would finally break the habit of letting domestic politics drive Cuba policy.
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Good. Quit playing politics and do the right thing. Sometimes a loss is a win.
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It could be be much more normal if the Cuban people canned their dictatorship for democracy and free markets. Sell them some cars, and they can sell us some cigars. Tourism could thrive.
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