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A New View On Interrogation
[link=http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTYyYTlhMzg5OWY1OThlMDA0ZjIxNmMzNjg2N2E1NWU=&w=MA]http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTYyYTlhMzg5OWY1OThlMDA0ZjIxNmMzNjg2N2E1NWU=&w=MA[/link]==
Marc Thiessen, former Bush speechwriter, interviewed two CIA agents who were intimately involved in the interrogation of KSM and others. Exerpts from the article:
Harry explained that the interrogations were not violent, as some imagined. He said that the interrogators credo was to use the least coercive method necessary and that each of us is put through the measures so we can feel it. He added: It is very respectful. The detainee knows that we are not there to gratuitously inflict pain. He knows what he needs to do to stop. We see each other as professional adversaries in war. (Indeed, Mike Hayden told me years later that KSM referred to Harry as emir a title of great respect in the jihadist ranks.)Critics have charged that enhanced interrogation techniques are not effective because those undergoing them will say anything to get them to stop. Soufan, the FBI agent and CIA critic, has written: When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them. . . . That means the information youre getting is useless.What this statement reveals is that Soufan knows nothing about how the CIA actually employed enhanced interrogation techniques. In an interview for my book, former national-security adviser Steve Hadley explained to me, The interrogation techniques were not to elicit information. So the whole argument that people tell you lies under torture misses the point. Hadley said the purpose of the techniques was to bring them to the point where they are willing to cooperate, and once they are willing to cooperate, then the techniques stop and you do all the things the FBI agents say you ought to do to build trust and all the rest.
Indeed, the first terrorist to be subjected to enhanced techniques, Zubaydah, told his interrogators something stunning. According to the Justice Department memos released by the Obama administration, Zubaydah explained that brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship. In other words, the terrorists are called by their religious ideology to resist as far as they can and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know.
Several senior officials told me that, after undergoing waterboarding, Zubaydah actually thanked his interrogators and said, You must do this for all the brothers. The enhanced interrogation techniques were a relief for Zubaydah, they said, because they lifted a moral burden from his shoulders the responsibility to continue resisting.The importance of this revelation cannot be overstated: Zubaydah had given the CIA the secret code for breaking al-Qaeda detainees. CIA officials now understood that the job of the interrogator was to give the captured terrorist something to resist, so he could do his duty to Allah and then feel liberated to speak. So they developed techniques that would allow terrorists to resist safely, without any lasting harm. Indeed, they specifically designed techniques to give the terrorists the false [/i]perception that what they were enduring was far worse than what was actually taking place.
Read the whole piece before you start howling about how horrible it was that we did this to terrorists. -
91 Replies
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Yes no ulterior motives there. Best of all it comes 1) from a Bush sycophant and 2) they would never allow out any information to corroborate or disprove. Brilliant.
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Didn’t you read it?
The article quotes memo’s released by the Obama administration? So the religious ideology that these guys follow is bunk? What is actually torture, well please lets move on from that argument which can go on forever…. What this seems to say is that these guys need a certain amount of “coercion” before they can talk just to save face with their God. Once they have met those demands they are free to give up everything they know. Seems to me that which is gleaned from them after can be trusted as truth. Besides, the Obama administration now has the power to corroborate or disprove anything they want.
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Yes I read it. What a self serving load of manure. BTW if a democrat had said these things you would be accusing them of giving away our interrogation secrets (way to go Marc)
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So, let me get this straight. Anything on this topic (or any other topic) stated by a Republican, especially someone who worked for President Bush, that actually had anything to do with the situation must not be the truth. However, anything stated by any Democrat, who wasn’t there, and has absolutely no first, second, or third hand knowledge of the material is to be taken as gospel. NOW I understand. Thanks for the clarification.
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No, it’s that one CIA analyst who worked for Bush gives evidence that is 100% contrary to what many other ex-CIA analysts have told us; yes, that one guy’s evidence is fishy, and beyond that, glaringly self-serving. I’m inclined to believe the many who corroborate each other over one who sucks up to god knows what teat he thinks is gonna feed him now.
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ORIGINAL: itchn2help
No, it’s that one CIA analyst who worked for Bush gives evidence that is 100% contrary to what many other ex-CIA analysts have told us; yes, that one guy’s evidence is fishy, and beyond that, glaringly self-serving. I’m inclined to believe the many who corroborate each other over one who sucks up to god knows what teat he thinks is gonna feed him now.
And what if he was RIGHT?! What if he was one of a very few who actually knew what was going on and why, rather than one of many who didn’t and tried to screw over their colleagues? Ali Soufan, the FBI agent, has been one of the loudest critics. But,
Critics have charged that enhanced interrogation techniques are not effective because those undergoing them will say anything to get them to stop. Soufan, the FBI agent and CIA critic, has written: When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them. . . . That means the information youre getting is useless.
What this statement reveals is that Soufan knows nothing about how the CIA actually employed enhanced interrogation techniques. In an interview for my book, former national-security adviser Steve Hadley explained to me, The interrogation techniques were not to elicit information. So the whole argument that people tell you lies under torture misses the point. Hadley said the purpose of the techniques was to bring them to the point where they are willing to cooperate, and once they are willing to cooperate, then the techniques stop and you do all the things the FBI agents say you ought to do to build trust and all the rest.
Sorry, I find this rendition at least as plausible as those from the critics. I guess Americans are no longer allowed to testify in their own behalf. You people have convicted these [i]Americans[/i] without a trial, something you would howl about in anger should it happen to a [i]terrorist[/i]. You folks really need to reexamine the situation.-
Gee, then I guess KSM and the other guy had different contracts with their respective God since one had to be waterboarded 83 (?) times and the other 183. Fishy.
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Look, Thiessen was a speech writer tasked with defending Bush policies. Do you think he went looking for the other side of the story? That wasn’t his job.
If all of this was on the up and up as described, why not release it earlier and officially? Why is it coming from a speech writer and not directly from the sources?
Do you really believe the CIA agents would admit to a crime to speechwriter?
Think.-
[link=http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368]http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368[/link]
You want to spin this one to Dalai?-
No, I won’t spin it. This must be investigated. Period.
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[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/us/politics/bush-and-cia-ex-officials-rebut-torture-report.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…ut-torture-report.html[/link]
Better late than never.
The Torture report is coming out soon. And team Bush has decided to stand with the CIA and rebut it.
A long-awaited Senate report condemning torture by the [link=http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/central_intelligence_agency/index.html?inline=nyt-org]Central Intelligence Agency[/link] has not even been made public yet, but former President [link=http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/george_w_bush/index.html?inline=nyt-per]George W. Bush[/link]s team has decided to link arms with former intelligence officials and challenge its conclusions.
The report is said to assert that the C.I.A. misled Mr. Bush and his White House about the nature, extent and results of brutal techniques like waterboarding, and some of his former administration officials privately suggested seizing on that to distance themselves from the controversial program, according to people involved in the discussion. But Mr. Bush and his closest advisers decided that were going to want to stand behind these guys, as one former official put it.
Former intelligence officials, seeking allies against the potentially damaging report, have privately reassured the Bush team in recent days that they did not deceive them and have lobbied the former presidents advisers to speak out publicly on their behalf. The defense of the program has been organized by former C.I.A. leaders like George J. Tenet and Gen. Michael V. Hayden, two former directors, and John E. McLaughlin, a former deputy C.I.A. director who also served as acting director.
According to those familiar with it, the 6,000-page report by the Senate Intelligence Committee takes a sharply critical view of the C.I.A.s interrogation of terrorism suspects in the first years after the Sept. 11 attacks, questioning the efficacy of torture and revealing more details about the program. It also suggests C.I.A. officers in the field may have misled officials at headquarters.
Mr. Bush and his advisers have been largely quiet about the Senate report until now, and former intelligence officials worried whether the Bush team would defend them. Some former administration officials privately encouraged the president and his top advisers to use the report to disclaim responsibility for the interrogation program on the grounds that they were not kept fully informed.
But Mr. Bush and his inner circle rejected that suggestion. Even if some officials privately believe they were not given all the facts, they feel it would be immoral and disloyal to throw the C.I.A. to the wolves at this point, said one former official, who like others did not want to be identified speaking about the report before its release.
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And right on queue Thiessen is out trying to claim the benefits of torture…..
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html]http://www.washingtonpost…c4814dfa9d7_story.html[/link] -
Why is it so important for the Right to prove the North Koreans & Gestapo (Verschärfte Vernehmung) were correct in the 1st place when they developed the “enhanced interrogation” techniques copied by the CIA? All the evidence other than unsubstantiated anecdotal rumors have shown that torture only works to inflict physical & mental pain & obtain false confessions.
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ORIGINAL: Thor
Yes I read it. What a self serving load of manure. BTW if a democrat had said these things you would be accusing them of giving away our interrogation secrets (way to go Marc)
The information that he is discussing was declassified by the Obama administration!
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Simply put, why is Marc Thiessen more believable than FBI agent Ali Soufan claims? Because the Right wants & needs to believe the unnecessary torture was more than just torture used in order to inflict pain & revenge.
[link=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-interrogator/]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/p…line/the-interrogator/[/link]
[link=http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812]http://www.vanityfair.com…/2008/12/torture200812[/link]
[link=http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-former-fbi-agent-ali-soufan-we-did-exactly-what-al-qaida-wanted-us-to-do-a-785558.html]http://www.spiegel.de/int…us-to-do-a-785558.html[/link]-
And Bush said “we don’t torture”….despicable
One of the most lengthy sections describes the interrogation of the CIAs first prisoner, Abu Zubaida, who was detained in Pakistan in March 2002. Zubaida, badly injured when he was captured, was largely cooperative when jointly questioned by the CIA and FBI but was then subjected to confusing and increasingly violent interrogation as the agency assumed control.
After being transferred to a site in Thailand, Zubaida was placed in isolation for 47 days, a period during which the presumably important source on al-Qaeda faced no questions. Then, at 11:50 a.m. on Aug. 4, 2002, the CIA launched a round-the-clock interrogation assault slamming Zubaida against walls, stuffing him into a coffin-sized box and waterboarding him until he coughed, vomited and had involuntary spasms of the torso and extremities.
The treatment continued for 17 days. At one point, the waterboarding left Zubaida completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth. CIA memos described employees who were distraught and concerned about the legality of what they had witnessed. One said that two, perhaps three were likely to elect transfer.
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/senate-report-on-cia-program-details-brutality-dishonesty/2014/12/09/1075c726-7f0e-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html?hpid=z1]http://www.washingtonpost…1f7_story.html?hpid=z1[/link]
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[link=http://harpers.org/blog/2007/05/the-german-experience-with-enhanced-interrogation/]http://harpers.org/blog/2…nhanced-interrogation/[/link]
One of the truly disturbing aspects of the Bush Administrations program of enhanced interrogation techniques is that theres nothing new about them. Each of the techniques is well known; each has a very long legacy. The practice of waterboarding, for instance, was closely associated with the Spanish Inquisition, and appears diagramed and explained in woodcut prints from the early sixteenth century. Similarly, the practice we know as the cold cellor hypothermiawas carefully developed by the Soviet NKVD, the forerunner of the KGB, as a means of preparing prisoners for interrogation. The Soviets used the motto no blood, no shame, and the same motto recently emerged in units of the American armed forces in Iraq.
Many of these techniques were also practiced during World War II and the years leading up to it. They were certainly not practiced by the United States, however. The practitioners were German, particularly the [i]Geheime Staatspolizei[/i] or Gestapo and the [i]Sicherheitsdienst[/i] or SD, the intelligence arm of the SS. The procedures were known as enhanced interrogation techniques, or in German, [i]verschärfte Vernehmung[/i].
Sullivan reviews the Norwegian war crimes trials in which the use of [i]verschärfte Vernehmung[/i] was established as a war crime, and a capital offense.-
Predictable response from the left, knee-jerk response to side with the terrorists. I bet that when these guys planned to kill all those innocent people in the WTC, they were not too worried about their well being.
Frumious’ hyperbolic comparisons with the Gestapo are the worst form of moral equivalence and are frankly dangerous to our national security interests and assets. Ask. The family of one of the victims of the WTC mass murder if they think the interrogation of the top Al Quaida Asset was an error.
Jeez!
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Comparison? It is where these techniques were developed.
“Enhanced Interrogation” was adopted by us from these “innovators” of intelligence gathering.
Your raising of the dead families raises, no, BEGS the question, was this “enhanced interrogation” more about intelligence gathering or revenge?
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The revenge here is coming from Diane Feinstein, because she’s pissed that the CIA spied on her.
It is a FACT that Feinstein and Pelosi were briefed about EIT and water boarding at the time. They were OK with it then, but now, they suddenly feel the need for a political issue to pontificate over. I like Feinstein, but this is pure retribution.
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From John McCain who is consistent that torture is not a good thing to use.
While many other Republicans criticized the Intelligence Committee and its chair, Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, a Democrat, Mr. McCain offered nothing but praise.
The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow, he said, standing at his desk on the Senate floor as Ms. Feinstein and other colleagues looked on. It sometimes causes us difficulties at home and abroad. It is sometimes used by our enemies in attempts to hurt us. But the American people are entitled to it, nonetheless.
He called waterboarding an exquisite form of torture and shameful. The C.I.A.s techniques, he said, stained our national honor, did much harm and little practical good.
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McCain is an old, babbling fool who is past his expiration date. He seems to serve the role of a useful tool for the left. He’s convinced that the left will reciprocate if he throws a bone their way. We’re still waiting.
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I don’t know how the rectal stuff can be thought off as a useful technique…truth serum would be more effective but disclosure is good/it makes us stronger as a nation to have the dialogue
knowledge is power and we are all grown ups…we have to own itQuote from Frumious
From John McCain who is consistent that torture is not a good thing to use.
While many other Republicans criticized the Intelligence Committee and its chair, Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, a Democrat, Mr. McCain offered nothing but praise.
The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow, he said, standing at his desk on the Senate floor as Ms. Feinstein and other colleagues looked on. It sometimes causes us difficulties at home and abroad. It is sometimes used by our enemies in attempts to hurt us. But the American people are entitled to it, nonetheless.
He called waterboarding an exquisite form of torture and shameful. The C.I.A.s techniques, he said, stained our national honor, did much harm and little practical good.
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Finally documented proof from the government itself that not only did torture not work but that its practices seemed more about cruel punishment and inflicting pain and humiliation than about gathering information. Forced rectal feeding? “Sadism in the defense of liberty is no vice?”
Now we know Cheney was lying all the time.
The only thing we should be hearing from the torture apologists are full apologies & mea culpas.-
[link=http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12/09/calls-grow-dick-cheney-george-w-bush-prosecuted-torture.html]http://www.politicususa.c…rosecuted-torture.html[/link]
A top international official is calling for the criminal prosecution of top members of the Bush administration for torture and other war crimes.
United Nations Special Rapporteur on counter terrorism and human rights, [link=http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true]Ben Emmerson called for prosecutions of former Bush administration officials at the highest levels[/link],
[i]It is now time to take action. The individuals responsible for the criminal conspiracy revealed in todays report must be brought to justice, and must face criminal penalties commensurate with the gravity of their crimes.[/i]
[i] The fact that the policies revealed in this report were authorized at a high level within the US Government provides no excuse whatsoever. Indeed, it reinforces the need for criminal accountability.
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Calling Darryl Issa to do a non-partisan Congressional investigation on the efficacy of using torture.
“Inquiring minds need to know.”
Regarding calls for prosecution, I wouldn’t be surprised if Obama pulls a Gerald Ford & pardons Bush, Cheney, the Cabinet & all others involved in torture before his term ends. But the dirty laundry should hang awhile to dry before that happens to make sure it doesn’t get swept under the rug, to mix metaphors. -
Would it still be considered torture if a terrorist condemned to death was given an orchiectomy (ok, under sedation) first? So when it came time to be with the 40 virgins….
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The CIA is above the law. It can do anything because it can also hide anything. It took years of extraordinary hard work and political struggle to get the Senate Report out and the CIA did all it could to derail it. It was delayed for two years as the CIA objected and objected and redacted and redacted. The president, through John Kerry, tried to kill it at the last minute. And when it is revealed that 26 human beings were tortured because of mistaken identity no one is disciplined. No one. When someone is tortured to death, the officer in charge of the torture camp is promoted. There is simply no other institution that exists that has this level of utter impunity under the law. And that puts the CIA in a more powerful position even than the president. If the president breaks the law, he can be prosecuted and even impeached. If the CIA does, it can hide that fact, and even if it is exposed, can escape any consequences.
What I simply dont understand is how conservatives those most skeptical of the power and reach of big government are not appalled by this state of affairs. It is the biggest threat to our liberty and constitution around. And yet they defend it. And find excuses for it. And even celebrate it.
[link=http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/12/12/the-crimes-the-cia-has-admitted/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+andrewsullivan%2FrApM+%28The+Dish%29]http://dish.andrewsulliva…%2FrApM+%28The+Dish%29[/link]
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Cheney threw Bush under the bus on FOX…I guess he missed the memo that the primary job of the VP is to fall on the sword for the office of the POTUS
but may be angry libby did not get his pardonQuote from Frumious
Calling Darryl Issa to do a non-partisan Congressional investigation on the efficacy of using torture.
“Inquiring minds need to know.”
Regarding calls for prosecution, I wouldn’t be surprised if Obama pulls a Gerald Ford & pardons Bush, Cheney, the Cabinet & all others involved in torture before his term ends. But the dirty laundry should hang awhile to dry before that happens to make sure it doesn’t get swept under the rug, to mix metaphors.
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Another torture miracle!
[link=http://prospect.org/article/war-terror-encapsulated-one-case]http://prospect.org/artic…-encapsulated-one-case[/link]
In case you don’t remember, on June 10, Attorney General John Ashcroft interrupted a trip to Russia to hold a press conference announcing that a month prior, the United States had thwarted a major terrorist threat by arresting Padilla, a Chicago man who had travelled to the Pakistan and joined up with al Qaeda. Padilla, Ashcroft said, was plotting to detonate a “dirty bomb” that would release radioactive material over Washington, potentially killing thousands. But we got him before he could carry out his horrific plan…
He [Padilla]was more terrorist wannabe than terrorist mastermind. That “dirty bomb” plot? It didn’t exist. It turns out that Padilla approached al Qaeda operatives with a brilliant idea he found on the Internet in [link=http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/%7Enuclearj/hbomb.htm]this article[/link], which he apparently was too dumb to realize was a parody. It involved getting some uranium, putting it in a bucket, attaching the bucket to a six-foot rope, and swinging it over your head for 45 minutes until it exploded.
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Both Bush and Cheney are perfectly comfortable whith the fact that they did the right thing to protect the country. I’m glad they had an effective EIT program. One day we are going to regret the damage Feinstein and the Democrats have done to the CIA. Idiots!
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Hack report that will have global repercussions.
Damage the country for political gain — congratulations!!!! -
Quote from IR_CONSULT
Hack report that will have global repercussions.
Damage the country for political gain — congratulations!!!!If we can’t defend doing torture, maybe we shouldn’t have done it in the 1st place. This isn’t a movie with Jack Nicholson,
[b] [/b][b]You can’t [i]handle[/i] the truth![/b] Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don’t want the truth, because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you [i]want[/i] me on that wall. You [i]need[/i] me on that wall. We use words like “honor”, “code”, “loyalty”. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said “thank you”, and went on your way.
“Jessup lived for somebody’s sins but not mine.” – Apologies to Patti Smith.
They did not torture in my name. If we adopt the torture techniques of the Nazi’s & Communists, what do we stand for? -
There are enough people out there saying we did get actionable, correct information from EIT’s which saved American lives to let me be at peace with the concept.
I wonder if in 10-15 years the Obama administration will be called on the historical carpet for drone strikes which killed a number of bad guys and innocents alike, and rendered them silent before any useful information could be gleaned from them.
Personally, I would rather endure the EIT methods outlined than take a missile up the wazoo. -
It doesnt matter if it works or doesnt work. It is wrong and beneath us and makes us nothing more than terrorists fighting for a different team than the other terrorists. Its not something an evolved people should participate in. And certainly it makes no sense when it is done to people who are only in captivity because people were given cash to turn them in.
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Quote from DoctorDalai
There are enough people out there saying we did get actionable, correct information from EIT’s which saved American lives to let me be at peace with the concept.
Really? They work? You mean, as McCain “admits,” someone tortured will say anything you want them to say because their motive is to stop the torture?
Are you saying the information, such as the information where to find Osama was obtained only through torture or was that information obtained long before the torture was inflicted? Or that torture just “confirmed” what information was obtained before torture? This just begs the question over and over then what is the purpose of torture otehr than to inflict pain, suffering and humiliation? Possibly death, albeit “accidental” death?
If torture is such a definite “slam dunk,” why did defenders have to lie about torture & its efficacy? Why do they continue to lie claiming all positions possible about torture? “We don’t/didn’t torture, it’s “just” EIT.” “We don’t/didn’t torture, it was cleared by lawyers as not being torture.” “We got valuable information that was unobtainable any “sissified” way.” “Why worry abotu torturing “them” since “they” would kill you in a moment.” “Being against torture is being “for” the terrorists.” And so on. Brennan walked a very careful line between all arguments including explicitly saying that torture, rather EIT did not provide actionable intelligence, rather “no way of knowing” if torture ever provided actionable intelligence.
WOW! & we used to think Clinton parsed & made weasel statements! The torture defenders have reached a new low to justify torture that provided no actionable results. So why did we torture like Saddam, et al, again? Because “we were afraid,” has been the most honest statement to date.
All I can say is that they did not torture in my name. I would support bringing the full report out into the open & consider prosecuting these people based on real evidence. We need a Truth & Reconciliation in this country. We’re supposed to be better than countries like Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Guatemala, etc. and the Middle East dictatorships.
[attachment=0] -
Were American lives saved or not? Depends whom you believe.
By the way…
[link=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/14/former-director-cia-interrogation-program-defends-interrogation-techniques-used/]http://www.foxnews.com/po…ation-techniques-used/[/link] -
Lord Vader is luving all the new attention…he made it on Meet The Press today in full F##k u mode
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Quote from Noah’sArk
Lord Vader is luving all the new attention…he made it on Meet The Press today in full F##k u mode
As well he should!
Glad to see him rebuke the sactimonious Monday morning liberals. -
sanctimonious.. yawn..spread the fairytale of it being a political hatchet job/payback for bengazhi
but Lord Vader is basking with glow: I’m revelent …let me savor this because I’m back getting calls for the TV talk shows and it’s not just Fox callingQuote from aldadoc
Quote from Noah’sArk
Lord Vader is luving all the new attention…he made it on Meet The Press today in full F##k u mode
As well he should!
Glad to see him rebuke the sactimonious Monday morning liberals. -
reviewed the interview again…I think he is slipping.. not a really convincing argument..just my 2 cents thoughts
Quote from aldadoc
Quote from Noah’sArk
Lord Vader is luving all the new attention…he made it on Meet The Press today in full F##k u mode
As well he should!
Glad to see him rebuke the sactimonious Monday morning liberals. -
Quote from DoctorDalai
Were American lives saved or not? Depends whom you believe.
I’d say no & there is no way of knowing, as Brennan says.
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Once again, wrong question. It doesn’t matter. Ends don’t justify the means. We could just intern all muslim males and that might save some lives but it goes against the principals of an evolved society that I hope we are a part of.
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It’s always the wrong question & misdirection, that’s the only way to justify torture. As Cheney was asked recently, If ISIS water-boarded Americans for information, that would be OK & would not be torture? Or it’s not torture only if we & our designated (by us) allies do it.
Cheney said he would torture again without second thought. I think the only way to clear the air of misinformation about “effectiveness” of torture vs other “sissified” methods is to have prosecution & trials with evidence. Unclassify the full documentation & let’s see the truth about torture. Let’s see whether rectal “feeding” is effective for anything other than the torturers getting their jollies.
If the guideline given by the lawyers being anything less than death or organ failure is acceptable, why stop at rectal feeding & water-boarding.
[link=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/themes/redefining.html]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/p…themes/redefining.html[/link]The Aug. 1, 2002 memo, sent from Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee to Alberto R. Gonzales, counsel to the president, parsed the language of a 1994 statute that ratified the United Nations Convention against Torture and made the commitment of torture a crime. To be torture, the memo concluded, physical pain must be “equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death.” And inflicting that severe pain, according to the memo, must have been the “specific intent” of the defendant to amount to a violation of the statute.
It opens a whole new universe of torture methods. -
No matter what you believe about the efficacy of Torture, the politically motivated disclosures border on treason.
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A declassified document is treason? Does that include all the politically motivated Republican investigation as treason? But do explain how this investigation was close to treasonous.
Truth too uncomfortable to you? -
Feinstein has given aid and comfort to enemy combatants.
[blockquote] Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
[/blockquote] -
If anyone thinks we didn’t use techniques like this and even worse in WWII they are kidding themselves. Sadly, not too many military intelligence folks on this forum to properly comment on the matter, and rarely do civilians have any idea of what actually goes on. Those are the folks who should be weighing in here. I do find it interesting how it’s ok with Obama and staff to drone strike and selectively kill folks, but twisting their arms, so to speak, and allowing them to live, in exchange for some information is somehow abhorrent.
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Even John Yoo, who gave the Administration “legal” cover on torture, who once said,
“it might be legal for the president to order an innocent child’s testicles to be crushed,”
thinks the CIA did things that were illegal.
[link=http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/john-yoo-if-senate-report-is-true-cia-interrogators-are-at-legal-risk/383790/]http://www.theatlantic.co…-at-legal-risk/383790/[/link]But I agree. Look, Fareed, I agree with you, if these things happened as they are described in the report, as you describe them, those were not authorized by the Justice Department. They were not supposed to be done and those people who did those are at risk legally because they were acting outside their orders.
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Yoo is probably more afraid of his Berkeley colleagues ostracizing him than anything else.
This issue is chock full of finger pointing…[i]I didn’t do it, I didn’t authorize it, e[/i]tc., etc. Of course there are exceptions, which seem to be solely among those who were involved and are not ashamed of what they did to protect all of us.
But I repeat, no matter what you think of EIT’s, and their results or lack thereof, release of this report constitutes treason. [i]I [/i]can take it, but I cannot abide by aiding and abetting our enemies. -
Oh please, stop the dramatics. This neither aids nor abets enemy and you cannot give a concrete example of how it does that unless you also believe our mere existence as a country aids and abets our enemies
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I hope you will also admit that Bush and Cheney aided and abetted these six murders and countless others due to PTSD returning Iraq veterans
[blockquote]It was while serving in Iraq that Stone suffered unspecified combat-related physical injuries, records state.
In addition to treatment for his physical injuries, Stone was treated as an inpatient for PTSD and was continuing to receive outpatient treatment, according to court documents filed in connection with his arrest on a drunken driving charge following a one-vehicle crash in Lower Frederick on April 28, 2013.
[blockquote][/blockquote] [blockquote]
[/blockquote] [blockquote]http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/12/16/manhunt-continues-for-armed-and-dangerous-pa-man-suspected-of-killing-six/?hpid=z3[/blockquote]
[/blockquote] -
Your quote is a complete non-sequitor.
But here is what Feinstein has done TO us, not FOR us:
[blockquote]The Democrats torture report is a gratuitous hit job — brought to you by the same party that, out of political calculation, aggressively undermined the American war effort in Iraq — only after voting to send our men and women into grave danger there, also out of political calculation. Dianne Feinstein and her fellow Democrats saw (this) as the perfect time to savage the CIA, further burn Americas bridges with anti-terrorism allies, and hand jihadists a huge propaganda victory.
The Islamic State had a response, too: They[link=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/british-vicar-of-baghdad-claims-isis-beheaded-four-children-for-refusing-to-convert-to-islam-9911072.html] beheaded [/link]four Christian children for refusing to renounce Jesus Christ.
[/blockquote]
[link=http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/the_democrats_and_treason.html#ixzz3M7KnSzMn]http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/the_democrats_and_treason.html#ixzz3M7KnSzMn[/link] -
I wonder if any of the animal cowards who murdered over 100 innocent children today were tortured by the CIA? I don’t think many humans were
tortured. Mostly animals. -
Quote from IR_CONSULT
I wonder if any of the animal cowards who murdered over 100 innocent children today were tortured by the CIA? I don’t think many humans were
tortured. Mostly animals.Well, ~26 people were innocent of any crimes according to the report. And the man who died chained to the floor was also innocent according to the report. But it’s OK according to Cheney to torture innocent men so long as the objectives are achieved. Except the objective was achieved years later by the next Administration, no thanks to torture techniques.
[blockquote]
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you, what do you say to Gul Rahman, what do you say to Sulaiman Abdula, what do you say to Khalid al-Masri? All three of these folks were detained, they had these interrogation techniques used on them. They eventually were found to be innocent. They were released, no apologies, nothing.
What do we owe them?
DICK CHENEY:
Well–
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, let me go to Gul Rahman. He was chained to the wall of his cell, doused with water, froze to death in C.I.A. custody. And it turned out it was a case of mistaken identity.
DICK CHENEY:
–right. But the problem I had is with the folks that we did release that end up back on the battlefield. Of the 600 and some people who were released out of Guantanamo, 30% roughly ended up back on the battlefield. Today we’re very concerned about ISIS. Terrible new terrorist organization.
It is headed by a man named Baghdadi. Baghdadi was in the custody of the U.S. military in Iraq in Camp Bucca. He was let go and now he’s out leading the terror attack against the United States. I’m more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than I am with a few that, in fact, were innocent.
CHUCK TODD:
25% of the detainees though, 25% turned out to be innocent. They were released.
DICK CHENEY:
Where are you going to draw the line, Chuck? How are–
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I’m asking you.
DICK CHENEY:
–you going to know?
CHUCK TODD:
Is that too high? You’re okay with that margin for error?
DICK CHENEY:
I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our objective is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another attack against the United States.
[/blockquote] -
Yes Dalai Pakistan would be a peaceful terrorist free country if not for Feinstein. Obviously torture was unable to prevent it however
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Pakistan would be peaceful and terrorist free if we didn’t look the other way about their support of terrorism. Osama hiding for years in plain sight a mile from the Pakistani Military Academy? Give me a break!
Another thought occurs to me. The report in question says that “torture” (and you can argue about what is or isn’t all day long) didn’t get us any information that we couldn’t have acquired some other way. WHICH TELLS US THAT IT DID PRODUCE USEFUL ACTIONABLE INFORMATION THAT SAVED LIVES. That gentlemen, is indeed the bottom line. -
No Dalai what it says is that after you get information by conventional means, you can re elicit under torture. You blithely dismiss it but the CIA resorted to torture because they were somehow convinced that there was more Intel and they used the fact that they were not getting any more useful information as proof that there must be some there. Kind of like Bush/Cheney and wmds. But I am glad to know you would not complain if a CIA operative in another country was captured and had these things done to them.
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Quote from DoctorDalai
Another thought occurs to me. The report in question says that “torture” (and you can argue about what is or isn’t all day long) didn’t get us any information that we couldn’t have acquired some other way. WHICH TELLS US THAT IT DID PRODUCE USEFUL ACTIONABLE INFORMATION THAT SAVED LIVES. That gentlemen, is indeed the bottom line.
The “bottom line” is that in all the examples given, the information was given before torture was applied. All of the examples of “actionable information” confuse & obfuscate the timeline of events deliberately leaving the impression that torture did produce the information. But this is not true. Even Brennan could not force himself to lie & say that the torture produced actionable information, so he fudged.
There seems to be no example of actionable information that was obtained after torture was applied. The closest you come is that they “confirmed” the information by applying torture. -
You wouldn’t believe that waterboarding produced actionable information if Khalid Sheik Mo sat on your lap and told you so.
Look, I don’t like the idea of torture one tiny little bit. It demeans the torturer as much as the tortured if not more so. I’m not hungering to go out and torture me some o’ dem dam AyRabs. But IF the EIT’s (NOT the sort of torture John McCain endured, mind you) saved one American, I’m at peace with that.
As with most of our discussions, we will never believe the “evidence” from sources we all consider biased in one way or another. End of discussion as far as I’m concerned. -
All that is being asked is to produce a first hand document….or a videotape…oops they destroyed those. Sorry to be skeptical about the self-serving statements. Glad to know you blindly believe the CIA
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I wouldn’t say I blindly believe them, but I don’t automatically disbelieve them in knee-jerk fashion either.
The truth is above any of our pay-grades. Feinstein’s little show was all about screwing the Republicans. -
Quote from DoctorDalai
You wouldn’t believe that waterboarding produced actionable information if Khalid Sheik Mo sat on your lap and told you so.
Look, I don’t like the idea of torture one tiny little bit. It demeans the torturer as much as the tortured if not more so. I’m not hungering to go out and torture me some o’ dem dam AyRabs. But IF the EIT’s (NOT the sort of torture John McCain endured, mind you) saved one American, I’m at peace with that.
As with most of our discussions, we will never believe the “evidence” from sources we all consider biased in one way or another. End of discussion as far as I’m concerned.
Yes, the old “ticking time bomb” episode of “24.” Abu Zubaida was captured in March 2002 in Pakistan and was cooperative with the FBI. He is then taken to Thailand (dark site) and then placed into isolation for 47 days. Finally on August 4, 2002, he is taken out & subjected to “enhanced” interrogation where he is slammed into walls, stuffed into a coffin-sized box for 300 hours & being waterboarded 83 times for 17 days leaving him, completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth.
After 47 days in isolation, the bomb would have gone off, no?
Maybe “results” is a fiction. Maybe all the justifications and rationalizations like “ticking time bomb” are fictions made up to justify unnecessary & brutal actions that are known to produce no good results. Maybe some in the Administration (Cheney anyone?) demanded these actions & Tenent (Mr. slam-dunk in Iraq) had no courage to say no but found sucking-up easy. Maybe those who said yes were only looking to please their masters & get a promotion instead of opposing their masters. Maybe the Administration shopped around to find subordinates who would provide cover by providing opinions that all this was legal. And now we have an army of Captain Renaults who are exclaiming they are, “Shocked! Shocked!” to see that some went overboard in their enthusiasm to torture. maybe it’s all post-justification for undefendable actions gaining no decent results.
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Funny thing is that Feinstein goes out of her way to protect Congress and Bush against the CIA…not as much to do with Republicans as a whole. but the knee jerk opposition to sunshine has become sadly predictable
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Over 12 years of research, Rejali examined the use of torture in the U.S., Great Britain, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, South Vietnam, and Korea. He looked at torture inflicted during the French-Algerian War, as well as at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and at Guantánamo Bay. His research found that there is no record of any successful use of torture to gather intelligence, not even in totalitarian states.For harvesting information, torture is the clumsiest method available to organizations, even clumsier in some cases than flipping coins or shooting randomly into crowds. The sources of error are systematic and ineradicable. [[i]Torture and Democracy[/i]]
[link=http://theweek.com/article/index/273886/why-torture-doesnt-work-a-definitive-guide]http://theweek.com/articl…ork-a-definitive-guide[/link] -
Thor starts with a false major premise that waterboarding is torture. This is a central point of dispute and is not accepted as a given. Secondly, the conclusions of you “definitive guide” to torture is refuted by the last 5 CIA chiefs and by common sense.
The onty torture in play here is the liberal’s torture of the truth and common sense. -
Premise 1 is not a debate waterboarding is considered torture and required John Yoo to torture logic to declare it legal.
Second CIA chiefs are not professional interrogators; nor have they produced a scintilla of evidence to contradict extensive research
Third this is extensive research that documented many reasons why torture fails as an evidence gathering technique and why even the most brutal and practiced regimes do not use it for evidence gathering
But I am glad to see you also blindly trust the CIA…why would they ever lie -
It makes little sense to me that Abu would have gone through nasty stuff if he was truly cooperating.
Again, we are all going to believe only what we want to here, and will likely never know the whole “truth”. Still, I maintain Feinstein’s treasonous release was designed purely and solely to screw the Republicans and probably the CIA…she is said to have a grudge with them for tapping her phones. I would not put it past her to destroy our security out of revenge. -
Quote from DoctorDalai
It makes little sense to me that Abu would have gone through nasty stuff if he was truly cooperating.
Ay, it makes little sense & yet there it is.
His is not the only story like this & there have been several FBI and other witnesses who say the same thing & all have the same question, “Why?”
If Abu Ghraib is typical, it seems that torture was more entertainment than for information.
[link=https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVizQP5RUO_cAgwAPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw–?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&va=abu+ghraib&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001]https://images.search.yah…illa&hsimp=yhs-001[/link] -
Insulting their egos with such pictures and being made fun of is part of the process, on purpose. re: pics from abu,… For them to be naked in front of women is an affront to their sensibilities. For good reason. There is a technical reason women are posing in pictures with them and getting those female soldiers in trouble for it shows the ignorance of the process. I say, we need more of it. Compared to what they do to women in ordinary, every day life, perhaps they will at least learn something.
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That “fun” photo is Spc. Sabrina Harmon smiling over the body of a detainee beaten to death by interrogators. He was reportedly interrogated for 1/2 hour.
Is it relevant what “they” do if we are doing it also, just a slightly different method? Is this a race to the bottom?
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In my opinion the “collateral damage” from airstrikes with the predicatble maiming/killing of innocent people is a much more serious issue. I for one would have no problem waterboarding someone in a scenario where potential information would preclude a crude airstrike.
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Only in Hollywood does that scenario work.
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[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/22/opinion/prosecute-torturers-and-their-bosses.html?smid=fb-share]http://www.nytimes.com/20…ses.html?smid=fb-share[/link]
NYT Editorial Board calls for criminal prosecutions up to Cheney, Yoo, etc.
These are, simply, crimes. They are prohibited by [link=http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2340A]federal law[/link], which [link=http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2340]defines[/link]torture as the intentional infliction of severe physical or mental pain or suffering. They are also banned by the [link=http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html]Convention Against Torture[/link], the international treaty that the United States ratified in 1994 and that requires prosecution of any acts of torture.
So it is no wonder that todays [link=http://www.wsj.com/articles/michael-b-mukasey-the-cia-interrogations-followed-the-law-1418773648]blinkered apologists[/link] are desperate to call these acts anything but torture, which they clearly were. As the report reveals, these claims fail for a simple reason: C.I.A. officials [link=http://justsecurity.org/18221/knew-illegal/]admitted[/link] at the time that what they intended to do was illegal.
In July 2002, C.I.A. lawyers told the Justice Department that the agency needed to use more aggressive methods of interrogation that would otherwise be prohibited by the torture statute. They asked the department to promise not to prosecute those who used these methods. When the department refused, they shopped around for the answer they wanted. They got it from the ideologically driven lawyers in the Office of Legal Counsel, who wrote memos fabricating a legal foundation for the methods. Government officials now rely on the memos as proof that they sought and received legal clearance for their actions. But the report changes the game: We now know that this reliance was not made in good faith.
No amount of legal pretzel logic can justify the behavior detailed in the report. Indeed, it is impossible to read it and conclude that no one can be held accountable. At the very least, Mr. Obama needs to authorize a full and independent criminal investigation.
…any credible investigation should include former Vice President Dick Cheney; Mr. Cheneys chief of staff, David Addington; the former C.I.A. director George Tenet; and John Yoo and Jay Bybee, the Office of Legal Counsel lawyers who drafted what became known as [link=http://www.nytimes.com/ref/international/24MEMO-GUIDE.html]the torture memos[/link]. There are many more names that could be considered, including Jose Rodriguez Jr., the C.I.A. official who [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/washington/03web-intel.html]ordered[/link] the destruction of the videotapes; the [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/us/politics/cia-on-path-to-torture-chose-haste-over-analysis-.html]psychologists who devised[/link] the torture regimen; and the C.I.A. employees who carried out that regimen.
Starting a criminal investigation is not about payback; it is about ensuring that this never happens again and regaining the moral credibility to rebuke torture by other governments. Because of the Senates report, we now know the distance officials in the executive branch went to rationalize, and conceal, the crimes they wanted to commit. The question is whether the nation will stand by and allow the perpetrators of torture to have perpetual immunity for their actions. -
+1+1+1!
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On her last day as Intel Chair Diane Feinstein releases the letter she sent to President Obama making recommendations on torture reform.
[link=http://www.nationaljournal.com/defense/feinstein-sends-obama-a-plan-to-prevent-future-torture-20150105]http://www.nationaljournal.com/defense/feinstein-sends-obama-a-plan-to-prevent-future-torture-20150105[/link]
In a letter sent to Obama last week and released Monday, Feinstein outlines a list of proposals that are “intended to make sure that the United States never again engages in actions that you have acknowledged were torture.”
“I believe that several of the committee’s findings should prompt additional oversight and better sharing of information for all covert action and significant intelligence-collection programs,” the California Democrat added.
Feinstein said she will introduce four of her recommendations as legislation at the start of the 114th Congress. Her bill would serve to codify an executive order President Obama issued upon taking office in 2009 that outlawed certain interrogation methods, including waterboarding. It would, additionally, establish the U.S. Army Field Manual as the “exclusive set of interrogation techniques” and require the government to promptly notify the Red Cross of all captured detainees.
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Mark Udall also deserves credit for bringing light to the fact that the CIA can’t and won’t defend what they did and instead hide behind secrecy and “trust us”. Also an interesting read on the dust up between Feinstein and CIA that lead to her pushing to release the report
Perhaps most importantly, Udall said the Panetta Review undercuts — from within the agency — the CIAs own staunchest defense of the torture program. The agency’s official position is that enhanced interrogation techniques were effective and did produce valuable intelligence. But according to Udalls statement, the Panetta Review acknowledges that torture didnt yield the kind of valuable information the CIA claims it did.
The Panetta Review further describes how detainees provided intelligence prior to the use of torture against them. It describes how the CIA – contrary to its own representations – often tortured detainees before trying any other approach. It describes how the CIA tortured detainees even when less coercive methods were yielding intelligence, Udall said. The Panetta Review further identifies cases in which the CIA used coercive techniques when it had no basis for determining whether a detainee had critical intelligence at all.
In other words, Udall continued, CIA personnel tortured detainees to confirm they didnt have intelligence — not because they thought they did.
[link=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/22/panetta-review-cia_n_6334728.html]http://www.huffingtonpost…iew-cia_n_6334728.html[/link]
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[url=http://thinkprogress.org/world/2016/04/24/3772265/cia-torture-case/]Victims Of CIA Torture Notch Historic Victory In Legal Battle[/url]
A lawsuit against two psychologists behind the CIAs torture program moved forward on Friday, when a judge decided he could not throw out the case. I dont think I have any other choice, said Senior Judge Justin Quackenbush, after rejecting the claim of the psychologists lawyer that the two are immune from civil liability, according to the Huffington Post.
The lawsuit was first filed in a federal court in Spokane, Washington in October 2015 by Suleiman Abdullah Salim, a Tanzanian citizen, Mohamed Ahmed Ben Soud, a Libyan citizen, and the family of Gul Rahman, an Afghan citizen who froze to death at a secret CIA prison in Kabul. All three men allege that they were subject to some of the harshest physical and psychological torture methods while in CIA custody.
…
This is the first time a case on the CIAs use of torture has gotten so far in the courts. A big reason for that is because its harder to argue that classified information is at risk since much of it was declassified in the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence report on the CIAs use of torture, over 500 pages of which was released in December 2014. The report confirmed that under former President George W. Bush, interrogations of CIA detainees were brutal and far worse than the CIA represented to policymakers and others. The report also documented a variety of torture methods used on detainees, including waterboarding, sleep deprivation, threats made against detainees families, physical beatings, rectal rehydration, ice baths, putting detainees in coffin-sized boxes, and other horrifying abuse. -
Nothing like bringing evil out into the sunshine to expose how ugly it is.
The abuse of “TOP SECRET” classification, to keep it out of the light & keep the public uninformed or misinformed in the case of torture. did it work? Depends on who you ask, interrogators say no, Cheney says yes. The report of results is classified except for the parts that Cheney says he is sharing which strangely enough, support his case. But you are not allowed to see the whole report because it might expose the lying lie. -
[url=http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/06/29/donald-trump-istanbul-airport-attack-hillary-clinton/86504460/]Trump advocates waterboarding and ‘much worse’ to battle terrorists[/url]
Donald Trump is redeploying aggressive rhetoric toward counter-terrorism in the wake of the Istanbul airport attack, talking about waterboarding and “much worse” techniques. “We have to fight so viciously and violently because we’re dealing with violent people,” Trump told supporters during a Tuesday night rally at the Ohio University Eastern Campus.
He also said, “we have to fight fire with fire,” and “we better get smart … and we better get tough or we are not going to have much of a country left.
“Our enemies are brutal and ruthless and will do anything to murder those who do not bend to their will,” it said. “We must take steps now to protect America from terrorists, and do everything in our power to improve our security to keep America safe.”
As Michael Hayden said …. bring your own bucket, Trump.
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the interview did not go well for Darth…when you re-listen to it and then to see it in print like that..slipping
Quote from Frumious
Quote from IR_CONSULT
I wonder if any of the animal cowards who murdered over 100 innocent children today were tortured by the CIA? I don’t think many humans were
tortured. Mostly animals.Well, ~26 people were innocent of any crimes according to the report. And the man who died chained to the floor was also innocent according to the report. But it’s OK according to Cheney to torture innocent men so long as the objectives are achieved. Except the objective was achieved years later by the next Administration, no thanks to torture techniques.
[blockquote]
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you, what do you say to Gul Rahman, what do you say to Sulaiman Abdula, what do you say to Khalid al-Masri? All three of these folks were detained, they had these interrogation techniques used on them. They eventually were found to be innocent. They were released, no apologies, nothing.
What do we owe them?
DICK CHENEY:
Well–
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, let me go to Gul Rahman. He was chained to the wall of his cell, doused with water, froze to death in C.I.A. custody. And it turned out it was a case of mistaken identity.
DICK CHENEY:
–right. But the problem I had is with the folks that we did release that end up back on the battlefield. Of the 600 and some people who were released out of Guantanamo, 30% roughly ended up back on the battlefield. Today we’re very concerned about ISIS. Terrible new terrorist organization.
It is headed by a man named Baghdadi. Baghdadi was in the custody of the U.S. military in Iraq in Camp Bucca. He was let go and now he’s out leading the terror attack against the United States. I’m more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than I am with a few that, in fact, were innocent.
CHUCK TODD:
25% of the detainees though, 25% turned out to be innocent. They were released.
DICK CHENEY:
Where are you going to draw the line, Chuck? How are–
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I’m asking you.
DICK CHENEY:
–you going to know?
CHUCK TODD:
Is that too high? You’re okay with that margin for error?
DICK CHENEY:
I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our objective is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another attack against the United States.[/blockquote]
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Either Cheney is ignorant of history or he’s lying. He’s trying to fudge the fact that we’ve prosecuted people for water boarding, like the Japanese.
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/12/16/cheneys-claim-that-the-u-s-did-not-prosecute-japanese-soldiers-for-waterboarding]http://www.washingtonpost…iers-for-waterboarding[/link]
At the [link=http://lib.law.virginia.edu/imtfe/]International Military Tribunal for the Far East[/link] (IMTFE), which lasted from April 29, 1946 to Nov. 12, 1948, there were indeed Japanese war criminals who were tried and ultimately executed for some of the events mentioned by Cheney.
The judgment of the IMTFE included a description of the type of torture known as the water treatment, in which the victim was bound and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness.”
Cheney dismissed too cavalierly Todds question about the prosecution of Japanese soldiers for waterboarding. One could quibble about whether these practices were exactly like the techniques practiced by CIA interrogators. But Todd raised a legitimate question and, contrary to Cheneys assertion, [b]waterboarding was an important charge in a number of the lesser-profile cases. Moreover, waterboarding also resulted in at least one court martial during the Vietnam War[/b].
In other words, such techniques in different circumstances have been the subject of U.S. military prosecutions in the past. Thus the former vice president earns Three Pinocchios.
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Quote from aldadoc
Frumious’ hyperbolic comparisons with the Gestapo are the worst form of moral equivalence and are frankly dangerous to our national security interests and assets.
The C.I.A.s interrogation techniques were more brutal and employed more extensively than the agency portrayed.
The report describes extensive waterboarding as a series of near drownings and suggests that more prisoners were subjected to waterboarding than the three prisoners the C.I.A. has acknowledged in the past. The report also describes detainees being subjected to sleep deprivation for up to a week, medically unnecessary rectal feeding and death threats. Conditions at one prison, described by a clandestine officer as a dungeon, were blamed for the death of a detainee, and the harsh techniques were described as leading to psychological and behavioral issues, including hallucinations, paranoia, insomnia, and attempts at self-harm and self-mutilation.
Waterboarding is called a series of near-drownings (Page 86)
Detainees with psychological and behavioral issues (Page 114)
The C.I.A. misled members of Congress and the White House about the effectiveness and extent of its brutal interrogation techniques.
The report says that the C.I.A. provided false and misleading information to members of Congress, the White House and the director of national intelligence about the programs effectiveness. It asserts that a review of cases, in which the agency claims to have collected actionable intelligence it would have been unable to obtain by other means, calls into question the connection between the information and any counterterrorism success.
How the C.I.A. represented the programs effectiveness (Page 172)
Examples of inaccurate C.I.A. testimony (Page 462)
The C.I.A. repeatedly underreported the number of people it detained and subjected to harsh interrogation techniques under the program.
The report states that the C.I.A. never produced an accurate count or list of those it had detained or subjected to brutal interrogation techniques. The agency said it detained fewer than 100 individuals, but a review of agency records indicated that it held 119. It also underreported the number of detainees who were subjected to torture.
C.I.A. director instructed me to keep the detainee number at 98 (Page 15)
The C.I.A. leaked classified information to journalists, exaggerating the success of interrogation methods in an effort to gain public support.
The report found that the C.I.A. provided classified information to journalists but that the agency did not push to prosecute or investigate many of the leaks. C.I.A. officials asked officers to compile information on the success of the program to be shared with the news media in order to shape public opinion. The C.I.A. also mischaracterized events and provided false or incomplete information to the news media in an effort to gain public support.
Overview of representations to the media (Page 401)
Most if not all the actionable information was obtained before torture was applied.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/08/world/does-torture-work-the-cias-claims-and-what-the-committee-found.html]http://www.nytimes.com/in…e-committee-found.html[/link]The linchpin in the hunt for the courier was a detainee named Hassan Ghul. But Mr. Ghul was cooperative from the outset. One officer said he sang like a tweetie bird. Mr. Ghul spoke expansively about the courier, describing him as Bin Ladens closest assistant. Despite the cooperation, the C.I.A. decided to torture Mr. Ghul, subjecting him to sleep deprivation and stress positions. He hallucinated. His heart fell out of rhythm. But he provided no actionable threat information.
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Quote from aldadoc
Frumious’ hyperbolic comparisons with the Gestapo are the worst form of moral equivalence and are frankly dangerous to our national security interests and assets.
The C.I.A.s interrogation techniques were more brutal and employed more extensively than the agency portrayed.
The report describes extensive waterboarding as a series of near drownings and suggests that more prisoners were subjected to waterboarding than the three prisoners the C.I.A. has acknowledged in the past. The report also describes detainees being subjected to sleep deprivation for up to a week, medically unnecessary rectal feeding and death threats. Conditions at one prison, described by a clandestine officer as a dungeon, were blamed for the death of a detainee, and the harsh techniques were described as leading to psychological and behavioral issues, including hallucinations, paranoia, insomnia, and attempts at self-harm and self-mutilation.
Waterboarding is called a series of near-drownings (Page 86)
Detainees with psychological and behavioral issues (Page 114)
The C.I.A. misled members of Congress and the White House about the effectiveness and extent of its brutal interrogation techniques.
The report says that the C.I.A. provided false and misleading information to members of Congress, the White House and the director of national intelligence about the programs effectiveness. It asserts that a review of cases, in which the agency claims to have collected actionable intelligence it would have been unable to obtain by other means, calls into question the connection between the information and any counterterrorism success.
How the C.I.A. represented the programs effectiveness (Page 172)
Examples of inaccurate C.I.A. testimony (Page 462)
The C.I.A. repeatedly underreported the number of people it detained and subjected to harsh interrogation techniques under the program.
The report states that the C.I.A. never produced an accurate count or list of those it had detained or subjected to brutal interrogation techniques. The agency said it detained fewer than 100 individuals, but a review of agency records indicated that it held 119. It also underreported the number of detainees who were subjected to torture.
C.I.A. director instructed me to keep the detainee number at 98 (Page 15)
The C.I.A. leaked classified information to journalists, exaggerating the success of interrogation methods in an effort to gain public support.
The report found that the C.I.A. provided classified information to journalists but that the agency did not push to prosecute or investigate many of the leaks. C.I.A. officials asked officers to compile information on the success of the program to be shared with the news media in order to shape public opinion. The C.I.A. also mischaracterized events and provided false or incomplete information to the news media in an effort to gain public support.
Overview of representations to the media (Page 401)
Most if not all the actionable information was obtained before torture was applied.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/08/world/does-torture-work-the-cias-claims-and-what-the-committee-found.html]http://www.nytimes.com/in…e-committee-found.html[/link]The linchpin in the hunt for the courier was a detainee named Hassan Ghul. But Mr. Ghul was cooperative from the outset. One officer said he sang like a tweetie bird. Mr. Ghul spoke expansively about the courier, describing him as Bin Ladens closest assistant. Despite the cooperation, the C.I.A. decided to torture Mr. Ghul, subjecting him to sleep deprivation and stress positions. He hallucinated. His heart fell out of rhythm. But he provided no actionable threat information.
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Yeah they were worried about “ticking time bombs” but left Zubaida alone for 47 days. A bunch of self serving flotsam emanating from the torturers
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Were going to have to do things that are unthinkable almost. Unthinkable, when you look at whats happening to us, when you look at whats going on in this country and around the world, and we dont want, you know theyre allowed to cut off heads and theyre allowed to chop off heads and we cant water board. So people can have disagreements, but I feel we have to get much, much, tougher, stronger and smart.
~ Donald Trump, in an interview with [url=http://www.nh1.com/news/trump-tells-nh1-news-meeting-between-bill-clinton-and-attorney-general-shocking-/]NH1[/url].
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Looks like Trump wants to enlist Ramsey Bolton to head up our interrogation program.
Most evilist villian in Game of Thrones for you non-fans.-
at least with ISIS/ISIL/DASH/Boko Harum I’m all for the “kill ’em all, let Allah sort ’em out”. No interrogation needed.
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Assuming all of those killed are guilty? I don’t think Allah or God sorts out the innocent or guilty very well under any circumstances. They are all the same, dead.
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[h3][link=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/guantanamo-cole-bombing-confession-torture.html]Judge Throws Out Confession of Bombing Suspect as[/link] Derived From Torture[/h3] The Saudi defendant, accused of orchestrating the attack on the U.S.S. Cole in 2000, was waterboarded and subjected to other forms of torture by the C.I.A. in 2002 in a secret prison network.
__________[link=https://www.lawdragon.com/news-features/2023-08-18-judge-excludes-gitmo-defendants-confession-because-of-cia-torture]https://www.lawdragon.com…because-of-cia-torture[/link]
The CIAs torture of a Guantanamo Bay detainee accused of planning the USS Cole bombing tainted his later confessions to federal law enforcement agents, a military judge ruled on Friday.
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Any resistance the Accused might have been inclined to put up when asked to incriminate himself was intentionally and literally beaten out of him years before, Acosta said.
Acosta cited testimony by two former CIA contract psychologists, Drs. James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, who subjected al Nashiri to a number of enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding and use of cramped confinement boxes, among others. Acosta said that al Nashiri understood there was a contract with his interrogators that he would return to the hard times if he ever stopped cooperating with his captors.[/QUOTE]
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Jeez, it only took 2 decades later for torture to be considered unAmerican and anti-justice.
The torturers should be criminally prosecuted. “Just following orders” was never supposed to be an acceptable excuse for Americans. Our Brave New World courtesy of the Iraq War and our actions.
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