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Is it really that bad on the west coast?
When ever I mention California. The usual/most response is why would you go there, so expensive, it is a liberal state, lots of taxes and lots of regulations, fires, earthquakes.
Those of you who actually live/work there, any comments?
I realize living in the SF or LA is probably very expensive, but there are so many other places to live. It is a huge state. Are many of the so expensive to live there comments applicable to the rest of the state? I know state taxes are equal all over but local taxes?
Are the progressive/liberal ideas they have that bad? I mean for someone making over 500k a year that is. Im sure you take home less per paycheck compared to say, Kansas, but are they that astronomical?
Is the actual practice of radiology that different in California for those who have moved there?
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214 Replies
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As a Californian, you can feel like you can look down on the rest of the country who doesn’t “get it”.
Paying high taxes and making less is a privilege most people aren’t smart or sophisticated enough to have.
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Its not bad, its awful and rapidly becoming a third world country with the worst climate (ie pollution) in the world. There is actually a book on how to escape California and people are actually now emigrating more out of state. I even have tourist friends who refuse to come and visit even before the pandemic.
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Whenever I hear about people complaining about California, I then think about how it still has the highest population in the country, one of the biggest economies in the world as a stand-alone state, some of the highest real-estate prices, and realize that anyone can state their opinion – doesn’t mean most people agree with them. People vote with their feet, and real-estate prices, economy, and population don’t lie. Anything else is talk, and just talk – nothing more. Anyone can tell anecdotes that have no bearing on what the majority of people think.
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Yes but that majority may soon become the minority. I am not talking about the well off, but the common middle class which may erode into the same kind of masses that came knocking on the Romanovs door and may soon come to yours.
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Horrible air, dirty streets, homeless, trash, human waste, criminals not being prosecuted. Oh and you pay a lot of tax to the local progressive cartels entrenched in the government. Lowlives rioting all night with helicopters making a ton of noise.
It used to be that you avoid tenderloin or DTLA, and live in a nice area of SF burbs or Beverly Hills or Palo Alto. But now the shit has spread everywhere.
Tech companies were the only reason to stay there, but now that Google and everyone else is going remote the exodus is real. It’s going to be new Detroit in a few years.
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I have family in Cali so I visit regularly. Very sad, has gone way WAY downhill over the past few decades. The homeless problem and the Bay Area and Los Angeles is no joke. The new thing is they buy up broken down motor homes and when it comes time to move they open the refuse water tank and just let it flow as they drive down the road (No I am NOT kidding!).
You will get paid less, your property prices will be astronomical and then you’ll find out a big chunk your neighbors are grandfathered under prop 13 paying $1000 a year in property taxes so you have to pay 10x as much.But the weather is awesome!!
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QXRT is right. Clearly a lot people want to live in CA.
Part of the right wing narrative is CA bashing. Many of the comments above are just regurgitating the CA bashing segments seen on Fox News that Tucker and Hannity run on a daily basis. Its really not that bad. Fires affect a very small proportion of the 40 million people (who live in around forested areas) and there hasnt been a deadly earthquake in nearly 30 years.
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Quote from Pedrad2017
QXRT is right. Clearly a lot people want to live in CA.
Part of the right wing narrative is CA bashing. Many of the comments above are just regurgitating the CA bashing segments seen on Fox News that Tucker and Hannity run on a daily basis. Its really not that bad. Fires affect a very small proportion of the 40 million people (who live in around forested areas) and there hasnt been a deadly earthquake in nearly 30 years.
Why do people feel the need to bash California? Is it because they secretly wished they lived there? Or they don’t realize it, but they subconsciously wish they lived there?-
There is probably some truth to that. It is/was the “promised land”, and is still beautiful. But the far-Left policies and sky-high taxes have spoiled it. It is no coincidence that the district that keeps electing the corrupt old crone encourages people to defecate in the streets.
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Really? Beverly Hills is filled with riots, human waste and trash? Histrionic much? Get a grip people.
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My niece got married in Laguna Beach. Gorgeous territory. We flew in at midnight two days before, and driving in and seeing all the shops and palm trees and beaches and stuff, I said to Mrs. Dalai, “This is why everyone wants to live here!” The next day, we had to drive from the hotel to some other venue. Bumper-to-bumper traffic at 10 in the morning on a Saturday. I said to Mrs. Dalai, “And THIS is why WE DON’T!”
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Quote from ntesla
Yes but that majority may soon become the minority. I am not talking about the well off, but the common middle class which may erode into the same kind of masses that came knocking on the Romanovs door and may soon come to yours.
Yes, and radiology may soon be taken over by AI. Anything is possible. Is it likely in our lifetimes? No. Beyond our lifetimes? Maybe generations in the future, but why would we care about that? California is not some empire that will last forever. But it will not lose its popularity to any significant effect in the near future.
Like I said, talk is cheap. Anyone can say anything about any location. But people vote with where they choose to live and work. Maybe California is not growing as fast as some other states. But they are already so much bigger in population and economy than other states that small trends don’t make a significant difference.
When the housing prices in, say, Texas or the Midwest overtake California home prices, maybe then I will begin to think that California is trending down. But not before then.
What’s funny about all this is that California jobs are still among the most competitive to get compared to most other states, and yet here we have AuntMinnie telling us that California is terrible. I really wish job-seeking radiologists agreed with you all and didn’t apply for California jobs! But alas, that is not reality.
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LOL, please. The question was asked about Cali. I guess we could just lie: Oh no it’s really wonderful, you won’t mind at all making considerably less that rads elsewhere while paying $700k for a 50+ year old 1000 sq ft crap-box in the Bay Area while paying some of the highest taxes in the country.
But the weather is really awesome!!-
When people say California they mean the coasts, Bay Area and LA. Maybe sometimes SD. I hate to break it to you but California is enormous and you can go live in Trump country that would rival backwoods Alabama in some areas. Large parts of CA have very reasonable COL even on the coast. Theres something that can fit anyone which is why its so popular.
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One of my prior sgigs was in a location many consider unattactive and we always had a hard time recruiting. That was until around 2016 when we suddenly got over-run by private practice rads from california who just wanted to get OUT. Second shift, night shift whatever we had, they took it.
I am sure its peachy as a place to practice radiology.
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That being said, if money was no object, I would get myself a condo and a sailboat slip in San Diego as one of a number of places to spend my retirement.
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California has a lot going for it. To me the most attractive is the Sun and the ocean and SFO and the tech industry that keeps churning out billionaires from Stanford making profits which supports ancillary businesses such as food and wine and art. Much better air quality than Texas (except for brief interludes as we haven’t been sweeping forest floors). Not a big fan of LA.
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California is a great place to visit. No doubt.
But to live there?
And practice medicine there?
Read the White Coat Investor and then consider this option. It’s a great option if you don’t mind working until the day you die.-
When you get AQI of 200 for 4 months I wouldn’t call it a “brief period”. It’s a new normal, it’s going to keep burning in years to come, lots of fuel left. In WA/OR/CA you can throw cigarette butts or start a fire on purpose (to rightly burn down the evil capitalist America), and you will face 0 consequences because law enforcement has been neutered.
Texas is a low bar for air quality. Lots of better places on the east coast, from MA to NC to FL depending on your weather and political preference.
Anyone thinking it’s a right wing exaggeration is welcome to fly to SF and walk around the city. One way flights are really cheap right about now.
Also Laguna and Newport Beach is not like the rest of California. It’s the last bastion of Republicans. Air is still shit though and you have Newsom lockdowns and taxes. And yes Beverly hills has been overrun by BLM lowlives recently. Remember 1pm curphews? I do.
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Have a sister and her husband that lived in So Cal until 5 months ago. Raised her kids there. Kids all left the state told her they would never go back. Kids are now mid west and love it. Sister just moved to retirement community in the south. She now lives on the 9th hole of a golf course in a gated community. Brother in law loves his golf. Her new house in So Cal would have been an easy $750k. She paid a little over $300k. Sold her CA home for $600k. She has no regrets. Complained CA was too crowded, too much traffic. If you have to shop on the weekends (when she was working) you paid heavily for the time spent in the store just trying to get groceries because of the number of shoppers. One of the top states in US resident are fleeing.
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Find a place that works best for you.
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California is a large state with much variety. You can live somewhere with acres of land where anyone can get a CCW. It’s much more than the caricature of endless traffic, homelessness, inner city crime, etc. That deep inner city stuff is a small part of the state and few professionals have to deal with that, we live in suburbs, often close to work. I just learned yesterday that my gardener lives in the city but has a piece of land 90 minutes away where he has horses, something that is available in my city but crazy expensive. It was a pleasant reminder of how diverse the state is.
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No one lives in California, its too crowded. Lol.
Also, avocado is not much of a thinker. …But now the **** has spread everywhere. Except, you know, the parts of California that arent REALLY California.
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Also Laguna and Newport Beach is not like the rest of California. It’s the last bastion of Republicans. Youre out of your mind. I guess Bakersfield, Fresno, the foothills, Sierras and far northern counties arent part of California?
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I have no interest in living in bakersfield but I thought you were looking for republicants. Incest? Really? WTF are you babbling about?
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Good grief. Have some of you even lived in California for any amount of time? I’ve lived in 8 states for at least 4 months and Southern California is amazing.
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As usual there are two different worlds. One exists in real world and the other in auntminnie.
If an outsider reads the posts here they think that a Radiologist who lives in California is a miserable loser with a terrible job and lifestyle who lives just a little better than a homeless in downtown SF and has a terrible job with aweful hours.
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It’s like NYC. Great place to live, terrible place to work as a physician. Both are good if you have baller money that you don’t have to work for.
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Quote from avocado
“Youre out of your mind. I guess Bakersfield, Fresno, the foothills, Sierras and far northern counties arent part of California”
Read my message above about meth and incest. Why would a self respecting physician live in Bakersfield?
I would live in Bakersfield. It’s a better town than where I live now.
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If you agree to live in Bakersfield you must swear to develop an incestuous relationship, do meth and defecate on the street I think.
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I love California. Go there all the time. Just wouldn’t want to live there.
Love NYC; used to go all the time too. Just wouldn’t want to live there.
Where I live, it is chill and copesthetic; the dreaded flyover country.
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My buddy recently bought an assualt rifle and a sniper rifle firing full sized rifle cartiage and he lives in SF. At least some toys are still available.
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Don’t forget the fact that California’s working on passing a law to allow NP’s and PA’s to do a lot more things such as ordering labs and diagnostic testing and providing treatments based on findings
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I love my job and life in California.
If its not for you thats fine.
Kind of toxic environment in this thread.
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What do you like about it Ghost?
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Sounds like the bad vibes are for the big cities. What I was wondering were the small towns in between. How is it like to live there? Are they still full of homeless folks?
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[b][size=”3″]It now costs $350,000 a year to live a middle-class lifestyle in a big cityheres a sad breakdown of why[/size][/b]
[size=”3″][link=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/you-need-to-make-350000-a-year-to-live-a-middle-class-lifestyle-today-heres-why.html]https://www.cnbc.com/2019…e-today-heres-why.html[/link][/size]
[size=”3″]Heres a sad reality: In order to raise a family in an [link=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/03/why-im-cashing-out-of-san-francisco-tech-ipo-boom-to-retire-to-hawaii-by-age-42-this-year.html]expensive coastal city like San Francisco[/link] or New York, youve now got to make $350,000 or more a year.[/size]
[size=”3″]You can certainly live on less, but it wont be easy if your goal is to raise a family, save for your childrens education, save for your own home and [link=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/what-to-do-in-your-20s-30s-and-40s-to-retire-as-a-millionaire-says-money-expert.html]save for retirement[/link] (so [link=https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/24/i-retired-at-34-with-3-million-here-are-the-downsides-of-early-retirement-that-no-one-tells-you.html]you can actually retire[/link] by a reasonable age).[/size]
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[size=”3″]A middle-class lifestyle is a reasonable ask. But thanks to inflation, it has gotten a lot more expensive if you want to have children. The median wealth of middle-income Americans has [link=https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-median-net-worth-for-the-middle-class-mass-affluent-and-top-1/]stayed flat for years, at about $87,140[/link], according to the Federal Reserves latest [link=https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/brainard20190510a.htm]Survey of Consumer Finances[/link]. Yet, prices for things such as housing and college tuition have risen tremendously.[/size]
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[size=”3″]In some major cities like San Francisco, the public school system starting in kindergarten is based on a [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/us/san-francisco-school-segregation.html]lottery system[/link], so even if you pay tens of thousands of dollars per year in property tax, your child is not guaranteed a spot in your neighborhood schools.[/size]
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[size=”3″]Coastal counties in the U.S. are home to [link=https://coast.noaa.gov/states/fast-facts/economics-and-demographics.html]almost half of the nations total population[/link]; therefore, this article is directly targeted at folks who need to live in these areas because of their jobs, schools or families.[/size]
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So if everyone think Cali is terrible place to live, shouldnt Cali job be very uncompetitive?
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This is a forever debate, argued every few months. Usually gets dropped into threads about job satisfaction and there is a devolution between “desirable and undesirable” places to live. Some people “must” live certain places. That includes big cities, and the middle of nowhere with farm land.
The pandemic has either made big cities much more or much less attractive depending on how you view it– if you can’t really travel, then you want everything to be in your city. But if you can’t really get around in said big city, then you might as well live in a cheaper place because chinese takeout tastes the same, and Netflix is the same everywhere.
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Chinese takeout definitely doesnt taste the same.
Honestly for me a good quality of life isnt a mansion or boat but the better chinese take out that you just wont get outside of certain places.
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There are a lot of bad Chinese restaurants out there.
They are no way the same.
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This is true, actually. We visit my wifes hometown in the Midwest every year, university town. Youd think food would be not bad there, and there is definitely some diversity in cuisine. But the food cant compare to a big city in SoCal. In SF, a Thai restaurant – or Indian, or Japanese etc – cannot compete and stay open if a certain level of quality is not met. Theres simply too much competition.
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Best ethnic food in America is in SFO. Better than NY and Chicago and Atlanta and Seattle. SFO also has the best wine selection. Can not beat that.
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Quote from Flounce
This is true, actually. We visit my wifes hometown in the Midwest every year, university town. Youd think food would be not bad there, and there is definitely some diversity in cuisine. But the food cant compare to a big city in SoCal. In SF, a Thai restaurant – or Indian, or Japanese etc – cannot compete and stay open if a certain level of quality is not met. Theres simply too much competition.
Meh. I have eaten some truly mediocre sushi and indian food in LA. The only difference to mediocre food elsewhere was the $300 price tag and the hassles of dealing with valet parking.
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Interesting thread, mostly in the fact that people have to prove they are right about something when in fact we are taking about opinion.
California is amazing to some and sucks to others. That is fair.
Let this not blend over into facts and science. In this arena, there are indeed some truths we must all agree on to come together as a country.
The current state of affairs in our nation is blending all this together.
Just had to point this out. Proceed to bash California or praise it as the best place to live. It’s all fair game.
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Californians and their fires can be rather comical. Visited some friends in the hills above LA during one of the previous fire seasons. I pointed out to my friend the features of his home and landscaping that will cause it to burn in as much as a grass-fire and he was shocked. Its really not hard, if your home is surrounded by shrubbery right up to the wooden siding, it’ll burn. He also backs overgrown conservation land adjacent to his little postage stamp of a property. He dismissed it with ‘there has never been a fire in our neighborhood’ to which I pointed out that one of the most destructive wildfires in california history is named for his neighborhood…..
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The right wing talk on this forum centers around one issue only. Greedy radiologists who have tied their self worth to their bank account balance with irrational fear of losing a few pennies to the threat of higher taxes. Life is about more than money. You can’t take it with you. Focus on health, relationships, and optimism. And care for others.
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Quote from doctorrads
The right wing talk on this forum centers around one issue only. Greedy radiologists who have tied their self worth to their bank account balance with irrational fear of losing a few pennies to the threat of higher taxes. Life is about more than money. You can’t take it with you. Focus on health, relationships, and optimism. And care for others.
How does that relate to the merits of california ?
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A lifetime ago, before I met mrs_dergon, a head hunter contacted me about a potential job as section chief at a large California academic medical center.
I was single, had some friends out there, and thought about it. Then it turned out that in order to take that “promotion” I would have to take 20% total comp pay cut from my midwest gig…. and to buy a house like I wanted in a neighborhood I wanted was going to be in the neighborhood of $2million (I’m sure it’s twice that now)
I took a pass. But I can absolutely see having made the decision the other way and ended up happy there too 🙂
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Folks, let me give you some advice having some life experience as I am approaching 50. Work life balance is very imp regardless of where you decide to live. It is equally important to enjoy your life while you are working and kids are still home (for those who have). That means taking regular breaks/vac, having and spending enough free time with loved ones and doing fun stuff that you (not necessarily what others think is right) actually want to do – YOLO. I understand you want to pay off your loans ASAP and want that big stuff, but it is not all about the biggest paycheck or a big house… or some ego competition. It may feel good early in your career, but you will likely regret in the future.
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Quote from Voxel77
Folks, let me give you some advice having some life experience as I am approaching 50. Work life balance is very imp regardless of where you decide to live. It is equally important to enjoy your life while you are working and kids are still home (for those who have). That means taking regular breaks/vac, having and spending enough free time with loved ones and doing fun stuff that you (not necessarily what others think is right) actually want to do – YOLO. I understand you want to pay off your loans ASAP and want that big stuff, but it is not all about the biggest paycheck or a big house… or some ego competition. It may feel good early in your career, but you will likely regret in the future.
Wise Piece of advice.
FIRE movement has gone to the extreme.
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Quote from Voxel77
Folks, let me give you some advice having some life experience as I am approaching 50. Work life balance is very imp regardless of where you decide to live. It is equally important to enjoy your life while you are working and kids are still home (for those who have). That means taking regular breaks/vac, having and spending enough free time with loved ones and doing fun stuff that you (not necessarily what others think is right) actually want to do – YOLO. I understand you want to pay off your loans ASAP and want that big stuff, but it is not all about the biggest paycheck or a big house… or some ego competition. It may feel good early in your career, but you will likely regret in the future.
I’m over 60 and I can vouch for every word of this.
But those on the treadmill won’t listen. Some of them MIGHT realize the veracity of your statement in 20-30 years, but many won’t. -
Cali not for me. Works for some.
Just as long as their politics stay there, live and let live I say.
But, it does seem the life is deteriorating there, have several colleagues who moved from Cal to SW/MWest and are happy.
But, everybody is different, so I spend little time worrying about it.
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Strictly from a financial point of view Im genuinely curious how Rads in VHCOL areas do it. A 7 figure home with proportionately lower income AND higher taxes and I just dont see where there is room for saving and enjoying the amenities that make that location desirable in the first place.
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Quote from Kuratz
Strictly from a financial point of view Im genuinely curious how Rads in VHCOL areas do it. A 7 figure home with proportionately lower income AND higher taxes and I just dont see where there is room for saving and enjoying the amenities that make that location desirable in the first place.
For some, carrying significant personal debt is not a big deal. Also, accumulating significant wealth is not a top priority for many of the same people. To them, it’s the price they pay for getting to live on the California coast.
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I dont see the need to live in 2-3 mil houses in the bay…There are plenty of decent houses and areas around 1 mil.
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Quote from Voxel77
Folks, let me give you some advice having some life experience as I am approaching 50. Work life balance is very imp regardless of where you decide to live. It is equally important to enjoy your life while you are working and kids are still home (for those who have). That means taking regular breaks/vac, having and spending enough free time with loved ones and doing fun stuff that you (not necessarily what others think is right) actually want to do – YOLO. I understand you want to pay off your loans ASAP and want that big stuff, but it is not all about the biggest paycheck or a big house… or some ego competition. It may feel good early in your career, but you will likely regret in the future.
^^ Yes.
Take your time, enjoy the process, smell the roses.
“Life moves pretty fast. If you dont stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” Ferris Bueller.
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This thread is full of interesting ideas and conflicting opinions. Having trained in the Bay Area (my spouse is also from there) I’ve had a chance to experience the pros and cons of working and living in California.
There are some big pros:
Culture and racial diversity is a strong point.
Weather is awesome (although I fear it is becoming less awesome due to climate change and fire season)
Entrepreneurship opportunities if that’s your thing. I trained at a very academic place, but always found that the best thing was the opportunity to cross paths with amazing, creative, and influential people (who weren’t radiologists). These opportunities added a lot of value to my experience and brought a lot of interesting opportunities into my life.
Family. We had a lot of it there which was nice.
Cons:
Cost of living is a nightmare. If you want to live in a nice area with good schools and a reasonable commute, you basically either have the be independently wealthy, ready to slum it and grind it out for 10 + years, or inherit property.
All of the neighborhoods and places we really wanted to live would have cost us $2.5 million or above, and that’s not for a new/nice house. Houses in that category are 4+ million.
Traffic is…not great. We lived a bit away from my work to save money my final year and I spent like 2.5 hours a day commuting (it was only 18 miles).
Competition for everything. As a physician in the bay you are definitely not anywhere close to the top of the food chain. There’s incredible competition for schools, property, spots in the costco parking lot.
Daycare and preschool is easily 20-30k per kid, per year.
Taxes are quite high.
For a lot of reasons we decided it was in our best interest to leave and establish roots elsewhere, so I took a great private practice gig with a nice schedule, fair structure, and good work life balance. Co-Vid aside, I have enough vacation to go back for 6+ weeks each year and hangout, and then still enjoy vacations elsewhere.
So far we miss it way less than we thought. We spent the whole summer enjoying pristine nature, lots of amenities, and avoiding crowds, fires, etc. (We moved to a naturally beautiful tourist sort of place not on the West Coast).
Most of the people I know who justify living in the bay area do so because they have to live there (family or work). But privately many are interested in leaving if the right opportunity came up.
Your individual mileage will vary, depends on what you want and need.
We wanted to be financially independent in 10 years, live a high quality of life while getting to that point, and to be in a beautiful place (we are lucky to have some family here also).
So far I would say our decision has been freaking awesome.
Just be honest with yourself and what you want/need to be happy. If that’s only found in a place like the bay area then that’s fine, you just have to be prepared to deal with challenges that await.
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I have in laws living there. One trip we were coming back from the airport and my wife says she wanted to visit a certain store for bag. Anyhow I look it up on google maps and I see its like 5 miles away. They close in 30 min or soo So I hit directions and ETA is 45 min. I said to her google is being dumb. No way 5 miles is 45 min. After awhile I was thinking I could briskly jog there and go back to car and FaceTime her the bag Or another bag.. but she said no she had to be there to make sure its the bag she wanted. Blah blah.
Thats mad traffic. I definitely get a Tesla and take a nap in rush hour or make calls to family or read an article for CME while my car does the work for me.-
This has been shown around for sometime but recently brought back due to Biden considers $400000/yr salary as wealthy. Please, don’t take this as a political argument. This is strictly as COL and salary discussion.
[link=https://www.marketwatch.com/story/joe-biden-defines-income-of-400-000-as-wealthy-but-heres-why-its-barely-scraping-by-for-some-11602010209]https://www.marketwatch.c…y-for-some-11602010209[/link] -
Houses around 1 million dollars in the bay area are almost non-existent in any area. The stark reality is that if you want a single family home in a reasonable area, and you don’t want to spend 2.5-3 hours per day commuting, you have to spend +2 million dollars on an entirely average house.
My in-laws have a decent house that required me to drive 15-18 miles, in a decent area and their house is worth $2.2-2.5 million, and I commuted that much.
If you don’t want a house you can buy a townhouse on the peninsula, but those are still easily in the 1.4-2 million dollar range.
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Lived up and down CA coast. Some time on the east coast. Never will leave again…if youre very physically active and detest winters it truly is heaven. This thread is laughable, all sorts of hearsay and bias. Im biased too of course. Btw CA is so huge and diverse, it basically is its own country.
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Are there 600k+ PP jobs in desirable CA? I have never seen them or maybe they are not advertised and super hard to get, only thru connections?
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Quote from ChuckI
Are there 600k+ PP jobs in desirable CA? I have never seen them or maybe they are not advertised and super hard to get, only thru connections?
Yes. but not really in LA, SD , or SF. If you’re okay being 1-2 hours away from those places the opportunities are there. -
Only thing this thread likely accomplished is to (1) perpetuate the bias that physicians are overpaid and (2) proved people can be extremely opinionated on things that are so subjective and perhaps even trivial. I sometimes wonder whether part of such strong bias harbors hidden envy or resentment.
As one person in private practice actually living in the bay area, only thing I can say is I am pretty happy living here. But then again, I dont skulk around thinking it would suck to live somewhere else; I probably can always find a way to be happy with my family. Money, job satisfaction, work/life balance, I feel like I have all the opportunities here with right priority and not sure why people think something is deprived.
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Quote from Insomnia
Only thing this thread likely accomplished is to (1) perpetuate the bias that physicians are overpaid and (2) proved people can be extremely opinionated on things that are so subjective and perhaps even trivial.
As one person in private practice actually living in the bay area, only thing I can say is I am pretty happy living here. But then again, I dont skulk around thinking it would suck to live somewhere else; I probably can always find a way to be happy with my family.
That’s no different from the folks content to live in Manhattan, with all the drawbacks that brings with it.
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Why do you assume I have any draw backs? Or do you wish such is the case, so you feel justified in choice you already made?
I dont think this discussion actually helps anyone who is actually thinking/wondering about moving here for a new career/life.
I am checking out…have all the fun talking about why your personal choice was better choice than others, but I wish people would stop posting numbers so that it doesnt give wrong idea to general public.
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Quote from Insomnia
Why do you assume I have any draw backs? Or do you wish such is the case, so you feel justified in choice you already made?
There are definitely drawbacks to living in the bay area, coastal SoCal or in NYC. Traffic, cost of living, tax burden. If that’s all you ever knew, then maybe you dont consider them drawbacks, relative to life in other parts of the country, they are.
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I think a lot depends on the kinds of ethnic food one craves…
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I have lots of Midwest friends in California, both radiologists and gen pop.
Berkeley, SF, LA, SD … with the exception of one who decided to move to Austin, TX, they all are staying and none plan to return to the midwest. They love it.
San Francisco is also my favorite city in the US to visit.
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Quote from doctorrads
The right wing talk on this forum centers around one issue only. Greedy radiologists who have tied their self worth to their bank account balance with irrational fear of losing a few pennies to the threat of higher taxes. Life is about more than money. You can’t take it with you. Focus on health, relationships, and optimism. And care for others.
4+
The talk is all about high taxes and high housing prices.
As you said it is sad that the focus is not on family, relationships and the multicultural living environment (off course if someone is not from midwest or is not minority CAN NOT understand the difficilties that non-local people face in small midwest cities).
If money is important to you, for those who praise Texas for having no state tax, I can tell you first hand that the California’s salaries are remarkably higher than big cities in Texas that are taken over by corporates. For example, Kaiser is a much better deal than most Texas jobs.
Do the math.
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Bay Area is among the most expensive areas in the entire state, and the real estate market there is an anomaly. Other places in California have suburbs that are not so nearly as expensive. Granted, its not the Midwest , but getting a 3300-4000 sq ft home for $1.3-1.6M is in a nice neighborhood that is 20-30 min from work and close to Whole Foods is not unusual.
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Definitely, my comment are specific to the Bay Area. Other areas in California are cheaper. I think San Diego is pretty good value compared to the Bay, a lot cheaper, better weather.
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I am not sure whats a reasonable area in the bay to some of those people. Maybe anywhere east of cupertino is unreasonable for some.
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Reasonable is relative to commute and where you work. The reality is most top jobs (outside of medicine) are on the Peninsula and in the city, which means those areas are insanely expensive.
You can live way out in the periphery of the Bay, and it’s fine if you don’t have to commute. But it’s definitely not the same as living in San Francisco, Mountain View, or some other similar city.
And the weather is way hotter once you get to East Bay and inland, dramatically so. For reference my in-laws live in the Fremont/Milpitas area.
I lived in mountain view, San Jose, and Fremont while there.
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Best ethnic food and wine selection. Really prioritizing the important things.
Newsflash, plenty of places outside the coast know how to do ethnic food. Wine gets shipped all over the country. We have an Italian place in flyover country that gets its cheese from Italy. This is the 21st century.
If you like it there, great. But enough of this garbage about how the food is better or some nebulous concept of diversity, as if all immigrants just stop at the coast and settle down. Your 30k a year private school is probably not that diverse.
It would be interesting to hear what PP pays in Cali vs south/Midwest. You might make more than a PE gig, but your spending power is still likely far less.
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Well if it helps at all, to have the same buying power in the bay area as I will where I currently live (as a partner) I’d have to make about 1.3 million per year. That’s using various cost of living calculators.
To each their own, you only get one shot at life. Just focus on setting yourself up to be happy and fulfilled.
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So valerian, if prioritizing food and wine is somehow an inferior / sillier thing, whats the better thing to priorize?
Big house? A boat or plane? Some people dont need a big house or live in certain neighborhoods but they strongly prefer to have certain ethnic food that just arent available elsewhere.
I dont think ethnic food or wine are necessarily less important than big house or outdoors, etc.
Its whatever that make you happy.
Also, I think Cali PP and midwest PP income are not very far off and definitely better than corps.
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Quote from irfellow2019
Also, I think Cali PP and midwest PP income are not very far off …
While I agree with most your points, the last statement is rather difficult to draw a conclusion due to the diversity of PP within a region, let alone across region. The average/mean salary data is meaningless in most cases.
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Just from what Ive heard and from what Ive heard about PPs.
My buddy took an academic job and got a 40% pay rise from undesirable part of NY to the bay.
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To the OP:
The bottom line is to be honest with yourself about what’s important to you and your future priorities. This may include location and all that entails (proximity to family, culture, amenities, weather, cost of living, etc) and your actual job (including what you practice, hours, compensation, etc). What you find is important will not align with many (or most) other posters here. Also, as you probably know, it will be hard to find a situation that ticks all the boxes on your list.
To directly answer your initial question – there are certainly places in California that have lower cost of living, though these are usually outside of the major cities. If you find that being in California for your job is a top priority, you can easily find ways to make it work without breaking the bank.-
As stated above there are many places in Cali that are different than living in Ohio or some other S-hole. Whats the point of that? If you want to live in Cali you want to live in the nice parts and there you will be middle class working ur @ss hard as a Rad.
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Let’s just say if Biden wins, and the democrats get their way with tax increases, someone making over 400K living in California will pay something like 39% fed income plus 16% CA income tax, plus the ACA 3.9% levy. Now I’m no accountant, but if you want almost 60% of your income to woosh, move to CA. Working till August for the govey…..no thanks.
I wont go into the high housing prices and crappy schools.
The only way it works is if you’re an LLC or Scorp passthrough to reduce your income.
Weather is awesome though.
I live in Los Angeles 🙁 would move if I could. Everyone I know is moving out….to Red states….
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Quote from docholliday126
Let’s just say if Biden wins, and the democrats get their way with tax increases, someone making over 400K living in California will pay something like 39% fed income plus 16% CA income tax, plus the ACA 3.9% levy. Now I’m no accountant, but if you want almost 60% of your income to woosh, move to CA. Working till August for the govey…..no thanks.
I wont go into the high housing prices and crappy schools.
The only way it works is if you’re an LLC or Scorp passthrough to reduce your income.
Weather is awesome though.
I live in Los Angeles 🙁 would move if I could. Everyone I know is moving out….to Red states….
Let me correct it for you. The highest tax bracket for California is 12.3% (versus 5% in Utah). So the difference will be 7%.
Also your calculation is correct for HIGHEST BRACKET and not the tax on total income. As you mentioned it is not uncommon for people to use S-Corp and decrease their salary of 6s-7s to something around 4s by also having a defined benefit plan.
I am not saying they don’t pay high taxes in California but the difference is not as much as people advertise here. You are talking about 30-40K tax in the level of private practice radiology salaries.
It is not like they pay twice as much tax as the rest of the country. Compared to other big coastal cities the tax and housing prices are higher, but not significantly higher.Now regarding housing prices. I agree it is crazy high in Cali. But the APPRECIATION in prices is also crazy. In other words, most people benefit from the increase in the housing prices. No uncommon for people to buy a house and see its price doubles in 10 years.
I know several physicians in California and also in midwest. The difference that people picture here is exaggerated big time.
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For certain people , good weather is worth it.
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
Let me correct it for you. The highest tax bracket for California is 12.3% (versus 5% in Utah). So the difference will be 7%.
Also your calculation is correct for HIGHEST BRACKET and not the tax on total income. As you mentioned it is not uncommon for people to use S-Corp and decrease their salary of 6s-7s to something around 4s by also having a defined benefit plan.
Isn’t it amazing how many people (including radiologists) do not seem to understand marginal tax rates?
No radiologist would be paying 39% of their income to the federal government (or 55-60% of their total income in taxes).
If they are, they need to find someone else to do their taxes.
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
Quote from docholliday126
Let’s just say if Biden wins, and the democrats get their way with tax increases, someone making over 400K living in California will pay something like 39% fed income plus 16% CA income tax, plus the ACA 3.9% levy. Now I’m no accountant, but if you want almost 60% of your income to woosh, move to CA. Working till August for the govey…..no thanks.
I wont go into the high housing prices and crappy schools.
The only way it works is if you’re an LLC or Scorp passthrough to reduce your income.
Weather is awesome though.
I live in Los Angeles 🙁 would move if I could. Everyone I know is moving out….to Red states….
Let me correct it for you. The highest tax bracket for California is 12.3% (versus 5% in Utah). So the difference will be 7%.
Also your calculation is correct for HIGHEST BRACKET and not the tax on total income. As you mentioned it is not uncommon for people to use S-Corp and decrease their salary of 6s-7s to something around 4s by also having a defined benefit plan.
I am not saying they don’t pay high taxes in California but the difference is not as much as people advertise here. You are talking about 30-40K tax in the level of private practice radiology salaries.
It is not like they pay twice as much tax as the rest of the country. Compared to other big coastal cities the tax and housing prices are higher, but not significantly higher.Now regarding housing prices. I agree it is crazy high in Cali. But the APPRECIATION in prices is also crazy. In other words, most people benefit from the increase in the housing prices. No uncommon for people to buy a house and see its price doubles in 10 years.
I know several physicians in California and also in midwest. The difference that people picture here is exaggerated big time.
Are you making and saving as much as you did in the Midwest Hospital rad? Is the after tax difference only 25k?
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Based on my salary and expenses, including a fairly expensive house and potentially paying for private school for kids, I’m projecting about $170-200k in post expense savings as a partner. Again it’s all relative, but for the Bay area, based on a similar salary, I’d estimate I would be saving far less, probably closer to $50-70k per year.
The difference is spread between taxes, general cost of living (eating out, sales tax, gas, etc), schools (private schools or living in a good school district is insanely expensive in the bay area).
Again my comments are not necessarily to dump on California, I think it’s a beautiful place that can be great. Just a frame of reference for others to consider.
Between personal savings and group retirement contributions, I believe I’ll be financially independent in about 10 years. The sweet spot for me is that I’m getting to FIRE, without suffering. Still living in a beautiful area, lots of cultural opportunities, great schools, opportunity to have a custom home in a beautiful setting, reasonable work life balance.
If we want to move back to Cali with a bunch of cash down the road we will be able to. I had a few attendings who did just that, making a great living in private practice and returning to academics later.
The best thing anyone can do is just be totally honest with what you want and need. Think for yourself and think creatively.
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Quote from drad123
Are you making and saving as much as you did in the Midwest Hospital rad? Is the after tax difference only 25k?
No. The difference is huge because I moved from a full time very high volume job in one of the highest paid radiology groups in the country to a part time 9-4 average volume practice.
I don’t need the money but need to work part time for my well being.
I know several physicians in midwest and in California. Although in midwest doctors are doing better financially, in California most of them have a comfortable life and don’t struggle contrary to what people exaggerate here.
One last point: I’ve been there and done that. The idea of moving to a smaller town JUST to make money and have a fat saving (if you like the location that’s a different story) and then move back to your desirable location once you reach FIRE is irrational. Don’t do it. If you want to live in Mississippi go for it and if you want to live in Manhattan go for it.
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
Quote from drad123
Are you making and saving as much as you did in the Midwest Hospital rad? Is the after tax difference only 25k?
No. The difference is huge because I moved from a full time very high volume job in one of the highest paid radiology groups in the country to a part time 9-4 average volume practice.
I don’t need the money but need to work part time for my well being.
I know several physicians in midwest and in California. Although in midwest doctors are doing better financially, in California most of them have a comfortable life and don’t struggle contrary to what people exaggerate here.
One last point: I’ve been there and done that. The idea of moving to a smaller town JUST to make money and have a fat saving (if you like the location that’s a different story) and then move back to your desirable location once you reach FIRE is irrational. Don’t do it. If you want to live in Mississippi go for it and if you want to live in Manhattan go for it.
Why is it irrational? You are now rich in a desirable location. Sounds like a success story to me.
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Quote from drad123
Quote from Hospital-Rad
One last point: I’ve been there and done that. The idea of moving to a smaller town JUST to make money and have a fat saving (if you like the location that’s a different story) and then move back to your desirable location once you reach FIRE is irrational. Don’t do it. If you want to live in Mississippi go for it and if you want to live in Manhattan go for it.
Why is it irrational? You are now rich in a desirable location. Sounds like a success story to me.
Because I lived in the location that I didn’t like, during the best years of my life. I had a lot of vacation and traveled a lot. I also made a lot of money. The job was as good as it can be. But the location was not what I was looking for. A few years ago, I went through a divorce which changed my perspectives a lot. I moved to California because of my son, my family and my old friends who live here.If I had my life to live over again, I would move to my desirable location right after fellowship. It may be Texas for you and Alaska for another person. We used to travel to here (So Cal) a lot and I even bought a second home here about 11 years ago with the hope to move.
Long story short, if you want to do something in life, DO IT NOW. Don’t live with the hope that you will do ti sometime in the future when everything will be perfect. My 2 cents.
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There are many good reasons to live in CA, your immediate financial benefit is not one of them. Objectively speaking, of course.
CA aint so bad… If it is where you want to live, go for it! My friends there love it. Who cares what people on this board think about CA, OH, or MS?
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If you don’t get CA or NYC, then you don’t get it. Nothing wrong with that, but there are plenty of us willing to take a lower salary to live in a place where we can enjoy our lives (which is mostly not work).
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Lots of people happily live in CA. If it’s your thing, it’s your thing. There is definitely something to be said for enjoying your life, and people who love to be outdoors surfing, skiing, mountain biking, etc. can live a great life in many California areas.
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
Quote from drad123
Quote from Hospital-Rad
One last point: I’ve been there and done that. The idea of moving to a smaller town JUST to make money and have a fat saving (if you like the location that’s a different story) and then move back to your desirable location once you reach FIRE is irrational. Don’t do it. If you want to live in Mississippi go for it and if you want to live in Manhattan go for it.
Why is it irrational? You are now rich in a desirable location. Sounds like a success story to me.
Because I lived in the location that I didn’t like, during the best years of my life. I had a lot of vacation and traveled a lot. I also made a lot of money. The job was as good as it can be. But the location was not what I was looking for. A few years ago, I went through a divorce which changed my perspectives a lot. I moved to California because of my son, my family and my old friends who live here.
If I had my life to live over again, I would move to my desirable location right after fellowship. It may be Texas for you and Alaska for another person. We used to travel to here (So Cal) a lot and I even bought a second home here about 11 years ago with the hope to move.
Long story short, if you want to do something in life, DO IT NOW. Don’t live with the hope that you will do ti sometime in the future when everything will be perfect. My 2 cents.
Why did you go to a location you didn’t like? Greed? or does ambition sound better? My experience is that greed is a lifelong trait.
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
Quote from drad123
Quote from Hospital-Rad
One last point: I’ve been there and done that. The idea of moving to a smaller town JUST to make money and have a fat saving (if you like the location that’s a different story) and then move back to your desirable location once you reach FIRE is irrational. Don’t do it. If you want to live in Mississippi go for it and if you want to live in Manhattan go for it.
Why is it irrational? You are now rich in a desirable location. Sounds like a success story to me.
Because I lived in the location that I didn’t like, during the best years of my life. I had a lot of vacation and traveled a lot. I also made a lot of money. The job was as good as it can be. But the location was not what I was looking for. A few years ago, I went through a divorce which changed my perspectives a lot. I moved to California because of my son, my family and my old friends who live here.
If I had my life to live over again, I would move to my desirable location right after fellowship. It may be Texas for you and Alaska for another person. We used to travel to here (So Cal) a lot and I even bought a second home here about 11 years ago with the hope to move.
Long story short, if you want to do something in life, DO IT NOW. Don’t live with the hope that you will do ti sometime in the future when everything will be perfect. My 2 cents.
It takes a lot of effort and ingenuity to find and get into one of the highest paid practices in the country.
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Quote from drad123
It takes a lot of effort and ingenuity to find and get into one of the highest paid practices in the country.
Yes it does. Is it supposed to be easy because one completes a residency? Fortunately in this world there seem to always be opportunities for those who are talented and get along well with others. I have found radiology is no different. Having trained many residents and knowing radiologists all over the country I am not aware of one that is not in a satisfactory practice to them if they meet the criteria I just listed, yes even in on the west coast. I am also prepared to be told I am wrong. -
Quote from Hospital-Rad
If you want to live in Mississippi go for it and if you want to live in Manhattan go for it.
Not many people want to live in Mississippi. This is why the comp is high. It is NOT stellar reimbursement. No one wants to come to the lower midwest town I work in.
Someone has to take these jobs.
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Every doc in coastal california I know works like a hamster on a wheel to make enough to maintain the standard of living their wife demands. This clinic, that clinic, some urgent care evening shifts to make the payment on the Tesla.
But I guess they have better chinese takeout.
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Quote from Flounce
Bay Area is among the most expensive areas in the entire state, and the real estate market there is an anomaly. Other places in California have suburbs that are not so nearly as expensive. Granted, its not the Midwest , but getting a 3300-4000 sq ft home for $1.3-1.6M is in a nice neighborhood that is 20-30 min from work and close to Whole Foods is not unusual.
Yeah, but if you live in a suburb of Fresno, how much is your life different from living in the burbs of Columbus, OH ? Sure, you are only a car drive from some neat mountains, but that isn’t different from anywhere in Colorado or Utah. What are you buying for the high taxes and COL ? Starbucks and Applebee’s are the same wherever you live.
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On one hand its not great to live in Bakersfield. On the other hand there are appearently IRs there working OBL taking zero call and making nearly a mil.
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Texas big cities like Houston, Dallas etc are extremely diverse, have fantastic ethnic food etc and reasonable cost of living. Cities and suburbs in Texas are not at all Trump-country although the smaller rural areas are. Unfortunately for Rads lots of corporate intrusions, but for other fields still strong private practice culture. There is a reason people are moving there from Cali and other states in droves.
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Quote from peehdee
Are California progressive/liberal ideas that bad?
No they are not.
Interestingly, California is also one of the most unequal states.
Also of note- docs get hammered on ordinary income tax while California’s capitalist class defer and avoid ordinary income taxation.
Why the rich pay little:
Capital income not/little taxed (corp retained earnings / reduced rates on dividends and capital gains)
Collapse of corporate taxation
corporate retained offshore cash
carried interest
non-dividend paying stock- most tech companies -
What is marginal vs effective tax rate?
A taxpayer’s average [b]tax rate[/b] (or [b]effective tax rate[/b]) is the share of income that he or she pays in [b]taxes[/b]. By contrast, a taxpayer’s [b]marginal tax rate[/b] is the [b]tax rate[/b] imposed on his or her last dollar of income. Taxpayers’ average [b]tax rates[/b] are lower usually much lower than their [b]marginal rates[/b].
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Quote from Voxel77
What is marginal vs effective tax rate?
A taxpayer’s average [b]tax rate[/b] (or [b]effective tax rate[/b]) is the share of income that he or she pays in [b]taxes[/b]. By contrast, a taxpayer’s [b]marginal tax rate[/b] is the [b]tax rate[/b] imposed on his or her last dollar of income. Taxpayers’ average [b]tax rates[/b] are lower usually much lower than their [b]marginal rates[/b].
Exactly. So if the federal tax rate for those over 400k is 39%, you won’t be paying 39% to Uncle Sam. If you make 500k, only the last 100k would be taxed at 39%. The effective tax rate will be much lower.
Taxes in CA are definitely high but people need not exaggerate for effect.-
Go educate yourselves:
[link=https://taxfoundation.org/state-sales-tax-rates-local-sales-tax-rates-midyear-2019/]https://taxfoundation.org…ax-rates-midyear-2019/[/link]California is ranked 9th. Behind such cosmopolitan places as Arkansas, Alabama and Kansas.
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That blends state income tax with sales tax. For high W2 income earners , sales tax is irrelevant
If state income taxes differ by more of a percent.On 400k income , in IL would pay 20k state income tax
In CA – 45k.
Youd have to do a lot of shopping to make up that 25k difference
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Bottom line = no amount of money delta at Rad level income is worth living in Trump-country. Don’t waste your life living in Trump-country for a relatively small marginal income difference. YOLO.
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Quote from wisdom
That blends state income tax with sales tax. For high W2 income earners , sales tax is irrelevant
If state income taxes differ by more of a percent.On 400k income , in IL would pay 20k state income tax
In CA – 45k.
Youd have to do a lot of shopping to make up that 25k difference
Most private practices are not W2.
25 K is a good money but it is not like that people who make 25K/Y more, can retire at the age of 45 while the other group have to work like a dog up to the age of 70 as some people claim here.
As I said, the gap exists but not even close to what people describe here.
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Anecdotally, it seems that a higher proportion of young docs in CA have educated working spouses when compared to the Midwest where I noticed a lot more traditional setups (husband works, wife stays at home with the kids).
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Some here make it sound like In California you are either living in SF with a view of the water or stuck eating Applebees in Fresno. Does anyone really believe that?
Theres a wide spectrum that exists between those extremes. If people want to be within a short drive to the coast, see what $1.5-1.7M buys you in San Luis Obispo, Orange Park Acres, or Carlsbad.
The California premium you pay is big, but not what people are making it out to be. People should live where it makes the most sense for them, and California may not make sense for many.
Family usually plays a big role in where you settle down, especially if you have children. If my parents and brothers were in Columbia, MO or Madison, WI, thats probably where I would be.
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Let me clearify, current CA is something like 13%, the dems in the state are talking about increasing top rate to 17ish. Hasn’t happened yet, but it will. It wasn’t long ago top rate was 10%. So you can only figure in 10 years it’ll be much higher. I also didn’t mention the 10% tax.
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10% sales tax
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
Quote from wisdom
That blends state income tax with sales tax. For high W2 income earners , sales tax is irrelevant
If state income taxes differ by more of a percent.On 400k income , in IL would pay 20k state income tax
In CA – 45k.
Youd have to do a lot of shopping to make up that 25k difference
Most private practices are not W2.
25 K is a good money but it is not like that people who make 25K/Y more, can retire at the age of 45 while the other group have to work like a dog up to the age of 70 as some people claim here.
As I said, the gap exists but not even close to what people describe here.
Every private practice I have seen is W2. Employee-shareholders get bonuses and K1 at end of year. I have yet to see a group with a defined benefit plan. I have seen solo rads with defined benefit plan.
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”
Introduced by California Assemblymember Miguel Santiago, D-Los Angeles, Assembly Bill 1253 would not only increase the tax rate on income over $1 million, but it would do so retroactively for income earned January 1, 2020.
The bill would impose a 1 percent increase on annual, adjusted gross income more than $1 million, a 3 percent increase on income more than $2 million, and a 3.5 percent increase on income more than $5 million.
Overall, the tax hike would increase the states tax rate on income above $1 million from 13.3 to 14.3 percent and levy a staggering 16.8 percent rate on those in the $5 million plus income bracket.”-
So, we dedicated the entire third page and still could not agree on Ca tax rate, an item explicitly written somewhere.
And how do we plan to get to the real question regarding the meaning of life (in California) ?-
You could live in Trump country that also exists as a college town. Neutralizes some of the conservatism to have a lot of young people (I guess as long as it’s not Oral Roberts or some other evangelical college).
As I said before, this discussion happens a lot here and it’s pretty dumb. You have to live somewhere.
In regards to how far money goes– taxes matter and so do housing prices, but overall cost of living tends to be higher in desirable places. Everything is more expensive, so the dollar doesn’t go as far.
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So the conclusion is that a Radiologist can not afford to live in the State that he/she wants and should move to a smaller town to be able to make the ends meet.
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Trump screwed Californians more than their state did by not allowing state income tax or property tax to be deducted from federal income tax.
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Another thing not mentioned, most small towns are not like the doc Hollywood movie where the new guy is welcomed with open arms. Most small towns Ive experienced youre looked at as a fn gringo and with extreme suspicion and probably will never be totally accepted unless you have family there
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
So the conclusion is that a Radiologist can not afford to live in the State that he/she wants and should move to a smaller town to be able to make the ends meet.
ROFLOL
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I live in a single room apartment in Sausalito. I moved here to escape from the rest of the country, which I have labeled as right wing and essentially inferior in every aspect.
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As per Dergon’s comment way above, had a similar experience w / Seattle. I grew up there. After years of training away had a chance to go back: sticker shock on housing prices and changes from the old days (pretty dramatic from back in the day) and family issues led me to pass. I do love the cool weather and getting out on the water again, ideally would live on an island with a boat and good tele connections and Mon-Fri 9a-5 for 600 + and no call no weekends no holidays and lots of good insurance reading 40 knee MRs a day. But, that job seems not available on ACR.org prof bureau. So, here I am in what others call flyover country and I call a pretty good life , and am content.
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In regards to the small town thingy above where we reject folks who are
‘different’. Suppost some do. Not so much here in the MW/SW area, it is pretty much live/let live. I have been all over and the most rejection I got was interviewing at Brigham/Women’s in Boston for rad residency.
And I was pretty cleaned up for that one!
We had a guy come in last year, ancillary job, mohawk, rings. He is happy here.-
400k in California is middle class, your spouse will have to work if you want the big house, private schools, etc..
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** in the nice parts, not the toothless parts.
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Quote from docholliday126
400k in California is middle class, your spouse will have to work if you want the big house, private schools, etc..
I know several doctors in Cali who make between 300-500K as the only bread winner of the family and they do fine. They have big houses in nice middle class neighborhoods and their kids go to good public schools. There are plenty good public schools in Orange County and many LA neighborhoods.
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Doing fine is different for different people. Someone can have all those things you mention, but have very little saved for retirement, college, etc.
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The doctors that don’t have enough savings are those who:
1- went through a divorce
2- Had a crazy lifestyle
3- worked in a low paid position (like part time academic) from the beginning.
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Quote from docholliday126
400k in California is middle class, your spouse will have to work if you want the big house, private schools, etc..
You realize that 400k puts you in the top 97-98% for salaries in California? And 99th% for the LA area? Or even 94-97th% for the SF-Bay Area (depending on if you go by individual or household income)? Even taking humongous student debt into account, with a 400k salary, it still puts you in a much better position than most people out there.
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The 90% dont matter if you live in places were only 95 percentiles Live.
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Quote from wisdom
The 90% dont matter if you live in places were only 95 percentiles Live.
If you live in places where only 95th percentiles live, you can’t call yourself middle class.
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Mistake
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Live In CA. Love the weather. People are for the most part nice. Make less than most other places sunshine tax. Way too liberal for me. Bought a gun and ammo. Ready for looters just in case. It is going downhill and definitely could a be a glimpse into the future of the Nation if we keep heading towards bigger and bigger government, either right or left wing. Problem isnt party. Its big government picking winners and losers. To me California is still worth it, but I know the cost.
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I was born an raised in LA
Loved the fun bits, annoyed with traffic
Worked in pp outpatient and hospital, meh
Got an offer not to be refused in the midwest, nice midsize city
Put up with gun toting conservatives who complain about taxes but expect the streets to be fixed or their social security to be paid presumably from thin air.
It is all good, with the right attitude.
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San Diego is a sweet place. Of all California, I could see living there. Even think of retiring there.
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There is no question in my mind that I will be happier living in a butter climate. What I struggle with is to quantify how much happier I would be. And how much all the other things that are mentioned above will annoy the hell out of me and the way the ultimate balance will be.
Very hard to know without living somewhere at least for a year, Which becomes nearly impossible once settled.If youre happy with your work/job and relatively happy with your community, Im not sure what the right move is.
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OK, I’ll do some back of the napkin math, let’s see what happens. Assumptions: 500K, a doctors house and lifestyle.
$500K = $325K after taxes, $27K/month
$2,000,000 house with $400,000 down = 10K/mnth (including taxes)
Now I don’t know how to count health insurance, because in most scenarios it comes out of the gross, so I’ll just treat it as a monthly expense. I ignored malpractice.MONTHLY INCOME
Take Home $27,000.00
MONTHLY EXPENSES
Home $10,000.00
Private School $4,500.00
Nanny $2,500.00
Nice Cars $1,600.00
Car Insurance $600.00
Groceries $1,600.00
Gardner $350.00
Electric $400.00
Life Insurance $300.00
Water $200.00
Gas $75.00
Medical Insurance $1,400.00
Meals and Ent $1,500.00
[b]TOTAL[/b] [b]$25,025.00[/b]
Leftovers $1,975.00
Now you can tweak a lot here (aka buy your writeoff-able Tesla), but my point is that the doctor lifestyle in CA is no gimme. And that’s with a 2020 tax structure which will get a lot worse in 2021.
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Back out nanny and reduce private school.
Divide cars / 2 as well as car insurance 600 ? What ?Live insurance way cheaper.
Could save 7500/mo.
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I mean, a $2M home with private school, a nanny and luxury cars etc sounds like a ridiculous lifestyle.
Do some docs honestly live like that?
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Quote from Kuratz
I mean, a $2M home with private school, a nanny and luxury cars etc sounds like a ridiculous lifestyle.
Do some docs honestly live like that?
I’m sure there are many that feel they it is their right to.
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Quote from docholliday126
OK, I’ll do some back of the napkin math, let’s see what happens. Assumptions: 500K, a doctors house and lifestyle.
$500K = $325K after taxes, $27K/month
$2,000,000 house with $400,000 down = 10K/mnth (including taxes)
Now I don’t know how to count health insurance, because in most scenarios it comes out of the gross, so I’ll just treat it as a monthly expense. I ignored malpractice.
MONTHLY INCOME
Take Home $27,000.00MONTHLY EXPENSES
Home $10,000.00
Private School $4,500.00
Nanny $2,500.00
Nice Cars $1,600.00
Car Insurance $600.00
Groceries $1,600.00
Gardner $350.00
Electric $400.00
Life Insurance $300.00
Water $200.00
Gas $75.00
Medical Insurance $1,400.00
Meals and Ent $1,500.00
[b]TOTAL[/b] [b]$25,025.00[/b]
Leftovers $1,975.00Now you can tweak a lot here (aka buy your writeoff-able Tesla), but my point is that the doctor lifestyle in CA is no gimme. And that’s with a 2020 tax structure which will get a lot worse in 2021.
This is reality. I don’t think it is ridiculous. Mine is not too far off and I don’t live in Ca. Small town MW ,accessible to large city. I will look at my numbers once I am home and post it later.-
So you guys living in the middle of nowhere still arent saving anything despite not living in CA?
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Quote from 2BRads
So you guys living in the middle of nowhere still arent saving anything despite not living in CA?
That’s more of a general inability of physicians to deal with money.
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Quote from 2BRads
So you guys living in the middle of nowhere still arent saving anything despite not living in CA?
I commented on his spending vs my spending, which is not far off to illustrate that the spending does not mount to an uber luxury lifestyle that people assume that comes with the spending.
I did not say about my savings. Don’t worry about my saving. Let’s just say my saving is more than enough for me to retire. Now.
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