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  • SAULBKNYC_904

    Member
    May 5, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    The “solution” is not to look at the lowest common denominator and therfore conclude there is no better way forward, in fact, there is no way forward. History is the proof that you are wrong. The world is better than it was 2000 years ago, better than 500 years, better than 100 years ago. What is the American character? To see a new day, a new beginning. People came here, why? Because Americans are fat & smoke a lot & will steal the shirt off your back, just screw & pass on STDs & other infectious diseases and live risky lifestyles to the detriment of themselves and society at large.

    Where’s humanity in your observations? They’re all the walking dead? Did you ever live with these walking dead, speak to them & hear their lives? You wife agrees & stays in the profession? Why? It’s a lucrative job? 

    I’ve lived with these people all my life, in my own family even. Sometimes a swift kick is the best they deserve but they want something better, especially for their kids, the vast majority of them. Some are leeches some are hopeless meaning they gave up their dreams or never had them. I’ll stop before I cry but they are not a waste. I don’t want to give the time to some of them either but they all don’t deserve condemnation. Most don’t deserve to be thrown away. A lot of successful adults came from broken hard lives. Not everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Not every kid is a doctor’s son

    What you don’t like about Socialism is intrusive government so the alternative is, what? Get them before they get you? Every man for themselves?

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    It is not the lowest common denominator, it is just how things are.  As much as you and I for that matter, would like to see it, human nature is what it is.  I would argue the humanity in my observations is recognizing the good and the bad and the relative balance of each.  IMO, providing for yourself is not bad, it is what you should do.  Should you feel an obligation to help those around you?  Sure, I think most do and I am not even against spending some tax payer money for it (although not sure it should be the Federal Gov).  That said, it does not remove the responsibilty and consequences of choices made from the individual.  The people who produce in this country do this…

    The hard truth is that government is dependent on the private sector for all that money.  Government produces nothing, it lives off the backs of the producers in our society.  I am the only person in my family to get a doctorate of any type…in fact, i am only one of 3 that have ever held a college degree and one of only a few that finished highschool.  My mother worked and provided for me and her though she had a chronic illness requiring multiple surgeries, did not even a college education and had to do it alone.  Through it all, she never took one dime from the government outside of money back on her taxes. But she came from an era when it was a point of pride NOT to take money from the goverment. My step father who came along after I graduated from highschool, went into the military and paid for his own education as an architect and started his own firm that he still runs today. My wife’s father came to the US by himself at 17yrs old after being released from a Nazi work camp (parents dead) at the end of WWII with literally only the clothes on his back, did not even speak English and was able educate himself and build his own electrician buisness from scratch, raise three kids and pay all three’s way through college. To me these examples epitimize what the US should be…that if you work hard, pay attentition and good things happen.  Most people who are a success (don’t consider myself in that group yet) don’t do it through luck (BTW, I define success by being able to provide for yourself, your family while fulfilling your role as a father/mother/son/daughter). “The harder I work the lucker I am”-Sterling Moss. 

    You can think of it this way, the more you are able to provide for yourself and family, the better shape you are in to help others.  That is why the US (well up until recently) has been in a position to provide military and finacial help for many poorer contries around the world.  By being successful, we were in a position to do this.

    If you have an illness, accident, are functionally mentally retarted, have a deblitating psychiatric condition..then yes, society has an obligation to help provide for you.  Lazy, unwilling to work, choose to smoke crack and sleep with prostitutes but othewise, physcially and mentally sound, then you should have to work like the rest of us and give back to the world.  To take the money when you are able to do otherwise, then IMHO you are in a way stealing from those who are really in need that the money was actually intended to go to.

    Community is the social in socialism. Your church requires social responsibility. Is that Socialism? You spoke of religion and Christianity & history. Christianity’s Messiah lived with society’s outcasts, not the rich and socially favored. Things were even worse that what you and I and your wife have seen and experienced.

    You say you would do the same for your mother or daughter or wife. What about your son or brother? You would do the same & yet criticize him because he thought he could “pull it off.” It is a story that things are not as bleak as you paint them. People can be altruistic without being stupid. The story was more an illustration however because it was so different of how Conservatives paint ‘reality.’ Conservatives believe in the dark side of humanity but that is not the way forward. It is not how history has progressed. There is more opportunities for the human detritus now than there was 50 years ago & there could be more opportunities in the future. People don’t come to America because the American Dream is less hopeful than the life they left behind.

    The American dream is the opportunity to succed and the freedom to make your own choices.  I see our freedoms being slowly taken away.  Before you jump, both parties have contributed.  W Bush was as bad as any tax and spend Democrat we have ever had…probably worse as I think his presidency could be the down fall long term of this country. Is it still better than most countries?  Sure..but that is slowly changing.

    Profit motive is not evil but it can be a lower road. The government has not made things worse otherwise it would have no support at all for evils like Social Security & Medicare & Medicaid & equality and air and water quality and other laws. Detroit and Wall St collapsed because of the blind belief in short-term profits over long-range goals. Capitalism like Democracy is the worst, except for all other ways. But even democracy has limiting rules. Too much of a good thing can kill you.

    the profit motive will always exist, even if it is not called the profit motive. I again agree that pure capiltism is not the way to go but you have to allow those who are willing and able to produce do so and motivate those who can but don’t want to  to join in. The companies that you decry don’t have people they can force to hand them money every April 15th.  Look at the government’s books.  The whole thing is defered costs and borrowed money.  The only difference between GM and the Fed Gov is they have a gun pointed at the “shareholders” to hand over more money and can print their own money.  It is a mismanaged as the car companies and just as self serving. Why give it the entire healthcare system to screw up?

    all that said, the health care system does need to fixed..but don’t want the whole thing handed to the federal government.