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ORIGINAL: Frumious
I mean you don’t use the example of a skydiver’s of race car driver’s risk choices to justify not covering most people. Evel Knievel’s health insurance policy is not the example and justification of why so many people have no coverage. It does not follow to compare his with a librarian’s risks and cost. It is not logical, it is a straw man argument.
Sort of covered in the other thread but your are missusing the phrase straw man argument.
OK…I was using an easy example to use a point but I will go another way.
There are a large number of illnesses directly associated with smoking. Lung Cancer was as rare as hen’s teeth until the turn of the 19th century when the mass production of premade cigarettes hit wide distribution. Physicians could practice their entire careers and never see a case. It has been demonstrated that smoking signficantly increases the risk of Lung cancer, bladder cancer, pancreatic cancer, renal cell cancer, cervical cancer, esophogeal cancer, AAA, peripheral artery disease, emphysema/COPD, and pharyngeal cancer and increases the risk of heart disease and stroke (says so on the label). All of these diseases carry a significant morbitiy and mortality, all cost a crap load to diagnose and treat. If someone chooses to smoke, they have made a lifestyle choice that significantly increases their risk of developing a disease and die that they would not have had if the did not smoke. There is a hell of a lot more of them then there are racing drivers or skydivers meaning their potential impact on the overall cost of health care is signifcantly higher than all the racing drivers combined…which acually probably carries a lower risk of actual death or injury when compared to 30+yrs of smoking.
Similar impact from obesity (more than half the population in the US now) and type 2 DM that often accompanies it.
Aside from the few people who have hormone disturbances etc, most of these people have their associated conditions from something they choose to do (smoking, overeating) or not choose to do (exercise, quit smoking, loose wieght). It is my position that they carry with them a greater burden to the health care system and risk to those who insure them and should..because it is a choice, pay more.
ORIGINAL: FrumiousAgain you lead with a statement that “I” would like to be taken care of by the government in a “utopian” health care system… Another leading and misleading argument. Another non sequitur.
Regarding Reinhardt’s mother, he considered what most American’s would consider, to help his mother. She declined the offer & scolded him & you think she is foolish because she choose not to employ his assistance to move ahead of the line elbowing someone else out of the way. Therefore that “proves” the German system is flawed, not “perfect,” not immune to influence. As for her foolishness at not pushing to the head of the line, perhaps she does not have a glioblastoma so 2 weeks is not life threatening therfore her “foolishness” is more related to a lack of fast-food treatment expectations. Reinhardt did not elaborate & still spoke of her in the present tense therefore it was probably not a life threatening issue so her foolishness is moot?
I described it as utopian because you are describing a population of humans that does not exist…where all say after you. It has never existed, and does not exist. Not even in Canada, the UK or Germany (where many of their citizens that can afford to fly to the US to get treated instead of waiting BTW).
I said she was foolish because she will be taken advantage of by people like her own family member who will bump her out of line if they can.
I was critical of your story because you were trying to use it to show how enlightened the general public is in Germany and I was pointing out that out of a sample of 2, 1 did not share that inclination. My true opinion is that I don’t want to rely on someone else to make my choices for me. If that means I carry more risk then that is the price of freedom IMHO. This also goes back to my previous point. Everything comes down to cost and reward. I wanted to race cars, the cost was an increased risk to myself (unrealized loss) and increased insurance premiums (as well as 6 years of my early 20s but that is besides the point). My reward was the experience in the races, traveling around, meeting famous people and a little money that I earned while doing it.
I would rather be more responsible for securing my own future and enjoy the extra freedom that comes with it…including the freedom to fail.
ORIGINAL: FrumiousI never said anyone was ignorant because they are religious. I look down on no one based on the presence of religious belief. Why do you need to make non sequitur arguments? I’m very sure we don’t share religious beliefs but for you to therefore conclude something more perhaps says something about your beliefs than mine. I did see a woman with a sign this weekend that said, “You have to be ________ to get to Heaven.” The space was filled in but I don’t share her, IMO, narrow-minded view about which flavor of belief is necessary to get to heaven.
Lets end this part of the discussion. This grew out of the comments about private school vs public where I gave examples of some advantages not offered in public schools and countered that teaching reglious beliefs in itself is not necessarily a bad thing (with the caveats we have discussed). You have read too much into my last two comments as I never said you thought or have said during this discussion people where ignorant etc. I was just illustrating the point that it is a human tendency not a tendency of only religious people to hold their opinions about such things above others by pointing out that there is a defacto atheist “orthodoxy” concerning opinions about reglion that is equally narrowminded and judgemental. Lets end this point on areas where we seem to agree, scholarly discussion of such matters is not a bad thing given the right context and the way it is presented (although, there is something to be said about being confronted by someone who believes strongly against your own beliefs).
