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renegotiating contract
I am about 6 months into a 2 year partnership tract with a new group. I am fairly content with the group but not completely sold on longterm commitment. The work load, particularly call volume, is much more than expected based on my interviews. Also the partners are making substantially more than was quoted to me (had I known this I would have asked for a higher staring salary). I’m assuming that asking to renegotiate my contract would be considered poor form and held against me and may kill my chances of becoming a partner. On a side note I have a really strong job offer (unsolicited) from a friend of mine but this would require moving about 90 miles.
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57 Replies
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If you are really content with your current group, Id recommend you stay. Already 25% the way to partnership (I know its just been 6 months, but still), the job will get easier as you get more used to the work, and before you know it, youll be the one making that high partner salary. While you may feel like you are getting cheated a little now, look at it from the positive side. Think of it as youre going to be getting more money down the road than you originally thought. On the other hand, if you really dont like the current group, thats a whole different discussion.
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I remember you saying you had a good gig. Takes a while to find the truth out. Id be worried what these guys will do when your partnership comes up…
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I bounced around a lot earlier in my rads career. It really pissed me off when I got lied to about a job and I would leave when I found out. I think it is the rule more than the exception.
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If you are prepared to move on why not tell them what you told us? You will probably learn a lot about who they really are. If by chance they like you and want yo to be with them long term they will make it worth your while to stay.
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If they value you as a rad, asking for a higher salary shouldnt be a partnership deal breaker. Maybe they could allow you to moonlight internally. Maybe they could add productivity bonuses. It beats them having to spend $$$ recruiting an unknown rad.
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Quote from Drrad123
I remember you saying you had a good gig. Takes a while to find the truth out. Id be worried what these guys will do when your partnership comes up…
Thanks for the replies…I would say that its still a good gig (particularly given its proximity to a major metro area). Part of the problem is that my former job was an extreme lifestyle group (work 3-4 days/week) and also on the low end of volume. I agree with you though, you never know the full deal until you’re well into it (sorta like marriage). I still trust them with respect to partnership terms but who knows. Given the present job market, I do feel like they need me more than I need them given my skillset (fellowship trained general rads with mammo and light IR skills). I am not actively seeking jobs and already have a contract in hand-
Renegotiating after you found out that the partners make more than you thought ? Lol.
They may offer you a higher salary but take the partnership offer off the table.
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Do you have a friend or someone you can confide or talk to in the group? Run it by him or her if you can.
Maybe you can ask that you get a share of the bonus given the good times or how hard the call shifts are. Can also mention that you are being recruited.
A contract revision of 50k up should not break the bank.-
I would tread lightly. I would NOT tell them about other offer. This is a threat no matter how you slice it. That will hurt you, not help you. Remember, if you stay, you will be working with these guys for years and years- this sort of entitled behavior will get you disliked. You dont want that.
I recommend this approach: guys, I like it here. I am not looking to leave, planning to leave, threatening, none of that. I am just asking a question and asking you to consider it. I know what contract I signed, I was never misled, I have no bad feelings. However, since I interviewed until now, we have gotten considerably busier, which is great. And with that we have all put in more effort (more than I was told was our normal). And I am good with that. However, while we are all working harder, taking less vacation, etc, only you guys are seeing a commensurate salary increase. I am still at the same financial spot, even though I am down there in the trenches with you guys. Is there any chance you guys would consider modifying (improving) my contract to allow me to share in the rewards (higher salary) for my share of this extra work?-
If your goal in life (and by extension work) is to not be disliked, you are not a winner. You are playing not to lose. Going through life being timid, afraid to rustle any feathers, will lead to not reaching your full potential and plenty of regret in the end.
I am frankly disappointed that you would suggest for the OP to put his/her head down and be a zombie.
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I would tread lightly. I would NOT tell them about other offer. This is a threat no matter how you slice it. That will hurt you, not help you. Remember, if you stay, you will be working with these guys for years and years- this sort of entitled behavior will get you disliked. You dont want that.
I recommend this approach: guys, I like it here. I am not looking to leave, planning to leave, threatening, none of that. I am just asking a question and asking you to consider it. I know what contract I signed, I was never misled, I have no bad feelings. However, since I interviewed until now, we have gotten considerably busier, which is great. And with that we have all put in more effort (more than I was told was our normal). And I am good with that. However, while we are all working harder, taking less vacation, etc, only you guys are seeing a commensurate salary increase. I am still at the same financial spot, even though I am down there in the trenches with you guys. Is there any chance you guys would consider modifying (improving) my contract to allow me to share in the rewards (higher salary) for my share of this extra work?-
Bounce. These guys are using you as slave labor while they reap the rewards. They are seasoned business radiologist. Trust me they are well aware.
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Id only do it if youre ready to walk.
Youre already in the home stretch. A one year bump in salary is just not worth the risk of losing partner
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Thanks again for the replies. A lot of good suggestions, appreciate the advice
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Changing jobs is not something to be taken lightly. Even just considering all the credentialing paperwork nonsense. For that reason Id stick it out for another year or two until the track ends to see with 100% certainty if the partnership is legitimate. Hopefully your other informal job offer will still be available then.
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On the other side, as the market changed, we have shortened partnership tracts for associates who were good.
So it depends how you approach it.
If they like you, either a raise or shortened partnership is in play. Just address it carefully, and don’t threaten or paint yourself into a corner, that could backfire.-
To the OP, the real question is whether or not you are ok with the workload and call volume which you say is much more than you expected.
If the answer is no, you have an easy answer.
If the answer is maybe, then more likely than not that your answer will convert to a no as months of practice become years and you feel the fatigue of working more than you would like. I would think carefully in this situation.
If the answer is yes, then I would make your best effort towards getting into the partnership at 2 years and sticking around to make that higher partnership income. You could ask for more $ as others have suggested, however, that could easily be interpreted badly and risk your chance of becoming a partner. Why risk that for an extra 50-75k pre-tax for 1 year. Not worth it. If you think the partners are shady, you have a whole different problem which is not remedied by asking for more money while an employee. -
+1
Even if you were to get want you want (50k more for a year), it would likely stress your relationships and create bad blood. Ive been in your shoes and felt the same way, but Id keep quiet and stay if you like the practice. It want really matter in the long run. -
50-75k after taxed at highest rate is not worth possibly souring relations w the partners in my opinion.
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Really great points guys. Thanks again.
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You have leverage whenever you have other job offers and know you would be happier at those other jobs. If thats the case, re negotiate as you have nothing to lose. The offer from your friend, you should know everything about the kind of job it really is. If you know that job is better for you, renegotiate
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Also, make sure you are also aware of how much tail malpractice insurance you will have to pay if you voluntarily leave this job – 25k or more…
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Quote from IRdoc16
Also, make sure you are also aware of how much tail malpractice insurance you will have to pay if you voluntarily leave this job – 25k or more…
May not apply if you remain in the same state or territory covered by your medmal insurer .You can either carry your coverage to the new group (if they use the same insurer) or start at the new groups insurance in year 2 or 3 of the ‘claims made’ ladder (with the insurer giving you ‘prior acts’ coverage). What you lose is the discounted first year ‘new physician’ premium and you are 1 or 2 steps higher for the 5 years until it equalizes at the ‘mature’ 7 year premium. Costs some money but probably not as much as buying a tail (reporting endorsement).
One of my millenial snowflake associates just quit so I am quite familiar with the subject matter.
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Most responsible groups don’t want you to leave without a tail. They may be left hanging for the balance of a mal case if you get sued down the line and you are not insured.
A good practice will have spelled out tail coverage, may be vested, but should be clearly established, and required. -
There is also nose coverage, so the new group may cover; because they don’t want you to be left hanging either…
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Quote from boomer
A good practice will have spelled out tail coverage, may be vested, but should be clearly established, and required.
Depending on the state, it may be written into the contract and the group may be within their rights to buy the tail and deduct it from your paycheck. Read your contract. Talk to an attorney licensed in your state if you have questions.
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As a partner in a group, I would see a renegotiation as a major red flag. You are earning the right to be a partner. Everything you do is being scrutinized by the partners. They are deciding whether or not to share the business they have built over time. Nothing is owed to a new hire but the contract they signed. If you want to be a partner you have to earn it.
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Unless there were a substantial change in duties from what was expected when hired (i.e., someone left and you were expected to do more shifts to compensate), I would be extremely cautious.
Think about it from the partners perspective. If they renegotiate with you, what about other employees? Will that open the floodgates and now contracts mean little?
The partners may prefer to simply let you go to avoid that scenario, particularly if you show a whiff of malcontentment. Remember that they have to consider the ramifications for the practice beyond just you. Be very careful.
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Sounds like OP is aware of this, more lamenting his ignorance coming out of fellowship.
But just further evidence that partner track offers are so market uncompetitive that theyre literally driving people away
You guys are super smart business leaders but dont see the value in investing in your future. Blind obedience is more important than intelligence
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Sounds like OP is aware of this, more lamenting his ignorance coming out of fellowship.
But just further evidence that partner track offers are so market uncompetitive that theyre literally driving people away
You guys are super smart business leaders but dont see the value in investing in your future. Blind obedience is more important than anything else for partner potential
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OP mentioned he had a job before this one just out of fellowship with a great lifestyle group.
OP signed the contract so it wasnt uncompetitive. As a corollary, the group is likely capable of hiring someone else under the same terms.
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Signing the contract doesnt mean it was a competitive contract. The mere fact that this is a thread would favor the contrary
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Sure it does. Or, at least favorable or attractive enough to facilitate a move from a relatively easy previous job.
So, if the parameters of the position are attractive enough to entice an applicant from a 3-4 day a week low volume position, then it will likely attract people who are working corporate radiology jobs with volumes similar to the OPs current practice.
Therefore, if I were in the group partners shoes, Im not terribly concerned about the potential departure of the OP, despite the OPs very good skill set. This means that the OPs negotiating leverage may not be as strong as the broad skill set may lead the OP to believe, particularly if the contract has a long notice period during which the group could recruit without having to work short.
Fair warning to the OP.
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Right. Im just saying your priorities are mixed up if all you value for partnership is being able to happily work at a discount. Doesnt matter if OP is a great radiologist with a remarkable skill set, if you cant shave 100k more off his salary
You get what you pay for
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Im just saying your priorities are mixed up if all you value for partnership is being able to happily work at a discount. Doesnt matter if OP is a great radiologist with a remarkable skill set, if you cant shave 100k more off his salary and be greeted with a smile and thank you
You get what you pay for, business leaders
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I was going to post earlier, but what Angry says above is true, and the OP is claiming that transparency wasn’t exactly “ideal.”
You hear this “risk this risk that” from those in the power positions (and trust me, I do believe that those that take on risk should make more) … but …
when you call out these types also for not being totally forthcoming, and taking advantage of their situations, they always fall back on that principle. The way things have worked out in general, I’ve noticed, is that they aren’t that honest big picture, which is why they go to the well with this line, over and over. -
Could be. Could very well be that the group is not trustworthy and the OP should leave and hope that the grass on the next lawn truly is greener.
I am admittedly a bit jaded here. During one interview awhile back, I showed an applicant the Powerscribe list of studies read from the previous weeks workdays and weekends, as well as the procedure list. Then the week before and so on. To give as transparent a view of workload and so on. I then asked if this was a workload he could handle. He said yes, definitely. We hired him, and several months in he said the work was too much and implied we had not been transparent with him regarding workload. I checked the numbers, and they hadnt changed. It was not enjoyable being called dishonest, particularly when we had gone to pains in being as transparent as possible to avoid that exact situation.
So, I am quick to defend a possible side of the story that might not be being told.
Its free advice on an Internet forum. Take it for what its worth :).
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I don’t doubt that’s the truth, radgrinder.
But there could be thousands of reasons a rad said “yes” first and agreed, and another thousand why he lied later. -
Quote from radgrinder
During one interview awhile back, I showed an applicant the Powerscribe list of studies read from the previous weeks workdays and weekends, as well as the procedure list. Then the week before and so on. To give as transparent a view of workload and so on.
Impressive. Most impressive.
Quote from dr77767
To the OP, the real question is whether or not you are ok with the workload and call volume which you say is much more than you expected.
If the answer is no, you have an easy answer.This above all else. Who knows, they may throw you a bone come bonus time if you take the work in stride, and at least take that grievance off the table. It would also be an indicator of how stand-up the group is. As an aside, some of the happier rads I’ve known were in practices with friends, should you consider the other offer.
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well said. this is the definition of penny wise, pound foolish.
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Either the partners will get another squeeze, sell out, or we all become employees in 5 years. Most likely, the latter.
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if they renegotiate for you why can’t everyone else in the group renegotiate their contract?
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Quote from Kelsoe
if they renegotiate for you why can’t everyone else in the group renegotiate their contract?
If the Cowboys renegotiate for Zeke, why can’t the rest of the team now demand renegotiation? Why can’t every starting RB for every NFL team now demand renegotiation?
I am the only one on a partnership tract. All the groups employed rads are all over 60-65 y/o, they don’t exactly have a lot of options, are entrenched in the area with homes, don’t take call, and frankly most are already financial set. If I did renegotiate it would be between me and the partners, not one employee worked know it happened. Its a moot point anyway as I’ve decided not to do anything as of now -
Jd care to share any update on what eventually happened?
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Quote from g0lden
Jd care to share any update on what eventually happened?
Came to the realization that if I wanted to remain with the group long term, it was best to abide by the contract. -
Just to emphasize a point touched on earlier:
How much the partners make is in a way none of your business as an associate. They own the business, if there is a global pandemic or loss of a contract, they may have a quarter where they make nothing or have to cut their monthly draw. Your salary as an associate is something you decided to accept based on the market for someone with your skillset at the time. A partnership position usually comes with a lower offer with the prospect of ownership priced into the offer relative to market. Unless there is a bait&switch where you find out that partnership isn’t being offered to most of the associates, you have no argument to renegotiate an associate contract. -
Are you a partner now?
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Sounds like OP is aware of this, more lamenting his ignorance coming out of fellowship.
But just further evidence that partner track offers are so market uncompetitive that theyre literally driving people away
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Quote from dr77767
To the OP, the real question is whether or not you are ok with the workload and call volume which you say is much more than you expected.
If the answer is no, you have an easy answer.
If the answer is maybe, then more likely than not that your answer will convert to a no as months of practice become years and you feel the fatigue of working more than you would like. I would think carefully in this situation.
If the answer is yes, then I would make your best effort towards getting into the partnership at 2 years and sticking around to make that higher partnership income. You could ask for more $ as others have suggested, however, that could easily be interpreted badly and risk your chance of becoming a partner. Why risk that for an extra 50-75k pre-tax for 1 year. Not worth it. If you think the partners are shady, you have a whole different problem which is not remedied by asking for more money while an employee.
Great advice and perspective. Thank you…Gonna keep my mouth shut and keep working hard. I may or may not adjust to the higher volume/workload but I have sometime to figure this out.
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Quote from jd4540
I am about 6 months into a 2 year partnership tract with a new group. I am fairly content with the group but not completely sold on longterm commitment. The work load, particularly call volume, is much more than expected based on my interviews. Also the partners are making substantially more than was quoted to me (had I known this I would have asked for a higher staring salary). I’m assuming that asking to renegotiate my contract would be considered poor form and held against me and may kill my chances of becoming a partner. On a side note I have a really strong job offer (unsolicited) from a friend of mine but this would require moving about 90 miles.
I was in similar situation when I started. I accepted a partnership track with the market number for an associate salary. I initially knew my partners made more money. 6 months in, I certainly knew they actually were making twice as much, albeit, some of each was legacy or unexpected.
I had some leverage to the group, at 6 months, due many factors, inside and outside of radiology and I could have demanded a re-negotiation. I decided not to. If I was happy with the initial salary and happy with initial estimated of salary partner, I should be happier if partner salary is higher. And I did not want to ruin the relationship with the partners, who I would work with for along time. Of course, the risk of corp/PE rad takeover was low at that time. It all turned out well.
By no mean, my scenarios is applicable to OP’s. Just want to share my somewhat similar story.-
I’m not clear on something – you aren’t looking but have an offer from a friend 90 miles away. Did you actually go to the practice and interview and see how that potential new job works? Or do they need help, can’t fill a slot and your friend said come to us please? Even if they are your best friend in the world, please don’t use an offer at a place you haven’t been to on a formal interview as your negotiating leverage.
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Why not have a beer with a partner youre friends with and mention some of this casually without opening formal negotiations? Assuming you have a good relationship with a partner of course.
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This approach seems the most natural and likely to elicit positive results
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Quote from deadwing
Why not have a beer with a partner youre friends with and mention some of this casually without opening formal negotiations? Assuming you have a good relationship with a partner of course.
Thanks for the suggestion. Probably gonna wait it out a few more months and hopefully continue to show my value to the group but I like the idea.-
This scenario happened with a friend of mine, who is a solid rad. He signed a low-ball partnership track job during the low point of the last market crash. About half way through to partner he asked for the contract to be re-done. They said no, didn’t offer partnership at all and ultimately sold to PE….. gotta love radiology private practice LOL. His mistake was he thought he had much more importance/leverage than he actually had.
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Jd care to share about what eventually happened?
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Quote from NewEngRad
I’m not clear on something – you aren’t looking but have an offer from a friend 90 miles away. Did you actually go to the practice and interview and see how that potential new job works? Or do they need help, can’t fill a slot and your friend said come to us please? Even if they are your best friend in the world, please don’t use an offer at a place you haven’t been to on a formal interview as your negotiating leverage.
Yes had a formal interview there but went with current offer for a few reasons one being proximity to family…Ive come to realize that even with a close friend working in group, one does not know how things will turn out until they are in it. So many variables. It’s like having a single date and then trying to determine whether or not its going lead to a long term serious relationship.
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