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United sues RP
[link=https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67194074/1/united-healthcare-of-texas-inc-v-radiology-partners-inc/]https://www.courtlistener…adiology-partners-inc/[/link]
Nice
Enormous money grubbing corporation vs moderate size money grubbing corporation
I hope nobody wins.
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82 Replies
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LOL, united playing victim here is laughable
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Brilliant move by RP. They are gonna defeat United Healthcare. RP bonds arent at risk of default because theyre about to lose all income from a major US insurer countrywide.
Whos the next insurance provider to sue RP for scamming them out of money due to egregious billing fraud? Hopefully RP wasnt scamming Medicare too.
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Say what you think waduh. Dont be afraid to speak your mind. Some consider RP to be villainous. Perhaps they will be served their just desserts? One can only dream.
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Is Waduh a RP shill? I’ve seen him/her/it say many positive things about RP’s brilliant business model. How much did you sell your soul and future of your group for?
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No I am not but I do believe in capitalism.
Rads are funny in the sense they constant obsess about their stock portfolio going up, but all of sudden when finance industry comes into their backyard, it is all evil.
I am just being intellectually honest. I have multi-millions in the public equity market and want capitalism to continue to succeed. Stuff like PE and VC are part of the system, like it or not.
You guys can sit on here an complain about the invisible hand but it is simply the best system for wealth creation and growth. How many millions (maybe billions) of people has it lifted out of poverty?
Patients come first for me, but this is a fight between basically business people and likely had no impact on the patients. Insurance companies are scum anyway.
It is amazing how seemingly intelligent people (Rads) can’t be intellectually honest.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
Patients come first for me, but this is a fight between basically business people and likely had no impact on the patients. Insurance companies are scum anyway.
It is amazing how seemingly intelligent people (Rads) can’t be intellectually honest.
RP stopped accepting United patients at their imaging centers as of April 15. This is impacting patient care. They have a monopoly on imaging in metro centers like Phoenix, Nashville, Austin, etc. If you have United your options are to go pound sand and drive hours away to non-RP markets or self-pay.
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What about go to the local hospital?
Outpatient imaging has always been a shady business imo.
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RP is a straight up scam. Just look up the google reviews for their their practice locations (Rad partners Phoenix for example). They are almost all reviews from patients complaining that they were scammed and billed for services they did not even receive.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
What about go to the local hospital?
Outpatient imaging has always been a shady business imo.
Who do you think staffs those hospitals in those consolidated markets? (Hint: RP physicians)
Do you think those hospitals could overnight handle the outpatient volume of the entire city when the monopoly provider for millions of people shuts the door with no more than a few days notice?-
I don’t think I can take the insurance company side on any dispute.
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Quote from bluedeep
Is Waduh a RP shill? I’ve seen him/her/it say many positive things about RP’s brilliant business model. How much did you sell your soul and future of your group for?
Waduh and drrad123 are known RP shills. Drrad was posting some RP generated nonsense about how they are growing… 500 new radiologists or something like that. 2 new physician groups acquired and 7 new contracts formed de novo in the past year. What they don’t tell you is that they have 500 new radiologists but how many rads did they lose over the past year? For all we know, 501+ RP radiologists quit over the past year. haha. I don’t believe a word of that RP propaganda piece.
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Woah, who you calling a shill? Just cause someone might look at things from various angles doesn’t make a shill. I can’t say about drrad123 but I’m not a shill.
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Maybe youre just a low key RP influencer. Haha. Perhaps shill
is too strong. Apologies-
Here is link to the publicly available federal court filing:
[link=https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67194074/1/united-healthcare-of-texas-inc-v-radiology-partners-inc/]https://www.courtlistener…adiology-partners-inc/[/link]-
The lawyers will win either way.
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I actually reviewed the court documents because this was all quite interesting to me. It sounds like RP was up to some very shady stuff, essentially billing for services at many sites inside and outside of Texas under the rates that were negotiated at a Singleton, TX location, which happened to negotiate high reimbursements. So if you had some practice in New Mexico they passed through the billing to the singleton location which is pretty clearly fraudulent. At least this is what is alleged. Also according to the numbers from United there were 70 providers billing United in 2013 and that number grew to the thousands by 2022??? In some bum fuck Texas town there are more providers than citizens? Not sure how much more evidence is needed, RP will be paying out billions. This may break them.
I think United is evil too, but looking at the allegations and evidence it seems RP was indeed at fault
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And people wondered how RP managed to stat afloat in the current market of radiologist shortage and now high interest rates? I think we now have our answer. Now where is drrad to make his typical comment that RP will rule us all?
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Quote from Alwaysbereading
I actually reviewed the court documents because this was all quite interesting to me. It sounds like RP was up to some very shady stuff, essentially billing for services at many sites inside and outside of Texas under the rates that were negotiated at a Singleton, TX location, which happened to negotiate high reimbursements. So if you had some practice in New Mexico they passed through the billing to the singleton location which is pretty clearly fraudulent. At least this is what is alleged. Also according to the numbers from United there were 70 providers billing United in 2013 and that number grew to the thousands by 2022??? In some bum **** Texas town there are more providers than citizens? Not sure how much more evidence is needed, RP will be paying out billions. This may break them.
I think United is evil too, but looking at the allegations and evidence it seems RP was indeed at fault
This sounds like a citizen that gets to take advantage of the fact that he reports to the IRS, but multiplied by millions and with big money actually at stake – United finally had it smack them across the face. Very interesting, sounds like something that a group like RP was “forced” into because of their nonsense business model. Too big to fail type stuff. -
This seems to have been going on for a long time before united spoke out. I wonder if it is a legal grey-zone and United finally just had enough of it
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Doubt its a legal gray zone. These accusations sound like blatant fraud. While I think United also has some dubious business practices, RP seems desperate. Even if RP somehow gets out of this case paying a small settlement, their goose is cooked. Theyre gonna have to make ends meet on less money. Im guessing the c-suite will be so nice as to cut their big executive salaries to make sure the the radiologists have enough to eat.
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Surprised RP is even fighting this. I mean how open and shut does something have to be? You performed a procedure in Arizona yet billed for it in Texas? Nope. Not gonna fly.
Their argument is going to either be oops or we thought this was ok.
Pretty sure people go to jail for improperly billing medicare. Why shouldnt that happen here if there is a mastermind behind this?
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Yeah sure guys a player as big as RP is going to do something like this without a team lawyers having gamed out the possibilities and having some weasel legal argument ready.
At its heart I beat the legal argument will be along the lines of:
X group negotiated a contract.
RP buys X group, thus it is now RPs contract
RP argues since they are now X group, they can use the contract for all of RPs business.
It will come down to if there was language in the contract that allowed it to be transferred to new owners or not (forgetting the legal term, maybe someone knows the term).
Overall I bet the celebrating is premature as this is like a skirmish in a larger war between two big players. -
Either way, United isn’t just going to roll over and continue to let them do this. If it’s one thing you can count on with United, it is their desire to pay as little as required by law. So worst case scenario, RP is back to reality as far as rates are concerned. Also gives RP bad press which may come back to haunt them when they try to play the victim and act “too big to fail” as interest rates stay elevated and private equity sours on RP like KKR has with Envision. RP looking for a government bailout down the line wouldn’t surprise me. My guess is that they won’t have many radiologist supporters in their wings, except for the known RP shills on this site or the ones given pseudo-management roles in their practice.
At the end of a day it will be death by a thousand cut for RP. Cuts in reimbursement, cuts in income due to increased radiologist salaries and ancillary staff salaries, cuts to their ability to do surprise billing and cuts in their public image which is taking a beating as of late. They may be circling the drain slowly, but circling the drain they are. -
Celebrating may be premature no doubt. But hey Envision seems to be struggling at a quicker pace than any of us would have thought. RP was smart in that they tied up their radiologists with worthless shares. So you have a bunch of financially idiotic Radiologists holding on to the belief that their shares may end up being worth something if they can just hold on a little bit longer. The fact that Radiologists are still accepting buyouts in shares is baffling to me. Apparently 2 groups accepted a buyout over the last year. I’ll be shocked if any group accepts a buyout from them over the next year. So maybe this is the beginning of the end.
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I really really really wish this trial (if there is one) gets covered on Court TV. I would use a vacation day to watch that one.
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
Celebrating may be premature no doubt. But hey Envision seems to be struggling at a quicker pace than any of us would have thought. RP was smart in that they tied up their radiologists with worthless shares. So you have a bunch of financially idiotic Radiologists holding on to the belief that their shares may end up being worth something if they can just hold on a little bit longer. The fact that Radiologists are still accepting buyouts in shares is baffling to me. Apparently 2 groups accepted a buyout over the last year. I’ll be shocked if any group accepts a buyout from them over the next year. So maybe this is the beginning of the end.
Agree with your overall sentiments. Accepting buy-outs at this point seems being desperate, wondering if these groups were on the verge from imploding for various reasons (staffing, mismanagement etc)
Biggest annoyance is that RP will still be mix when contracts are up for legit PP groups (who may be in the need of subsidization) whereas RP will counter with a cheaper deal that will have hospital admins salivating. Apparently RP is starving from rads but this does not seem to stop them for gobbling up practices -
Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power. -
Power. LOL. We learned power was corrupt. Often is.
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Quote from drad123
Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power.Private equity doesn’t have power. They can’t hire because they can’t pay competitive market wages relative to private practices. Why make 40% less for the same amount of work? What’s the value proposition of private equity for a 32 year old fresh fellowship graduate? RP is circling the drain and spending 1-2 years in a dead end RP “partnership in name only” is not what kids want these days.
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field. -
What does RP pay per RVU? Onsite vs tele?
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Quote from bluedeep
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field.
Its already creeping down to the Gen Xers. In 15 years the younger posters will be blaming everything on the greedy millennials. -
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power.Private equity doesn’t have power. They can’t hire because they can’t pay competitive market wages relative to private practices. Why make 40% less for the same amount of work? What’s the value proposition of private equity for a 32 year old fresh fellowship graduate? RP is circling the drain and spending 1-2 years in a dead end RP “partnership in name only” is not what kids want these days.
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field.
I am no fan of RP/PE, but as long as they keep expanding I can only assume recruitment/retainment issues are manageable at this time -
PE doesnt think that way jd. They have money they have to put to work buying practices and thats what they try to do. If successful they worry about filling the job later. Looks good on the growth side of the equation which is the first metric they try to sell potential investors on.
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To me, it is obvious what RP needs to do… create a unified platform across all their organization to leverage their own scale using tele-radiology. A platform that a Rad can jump on to read cases whenever free to make extra money would be appealing to many. Rads who are shareholders or “partners” in RP would get higher internal rates but outsider can also come on to earn 1099 income etc. To me, it is so obvious but I’m no business genius, which is why I continue to slave away at the dictaphone.
I think it is too soon to talk about the demise of RP. They have some interesting possibilities on the technology side.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
[b]To me, it is obvious what RP needs to do… create a unified platform across all their organization to leverage their own scale using tele-radiology.[/b] A platform that a Rad can jump on to read cases whenever free to make extra money would be appealing to many. Rads who are shareholders or “partners” in RP would get higher internal rates but outsider can also come on to earn 1099 income etc. To me, it is so obvious but I’m no business genius, which is why I continue to slave away at the dictaphone.I think it is too soon to talk about the demise of RP. They have some interesting possibilities on the technology side.
The bold is a great idea. Unfortunately, the time to do that was when they had big margins over the rads and there was plenty of PE cash sloshing around. Now it’s tough to put capital to work in anything other than trying to “grow” and keep making payroll. The amount they have to pay the rads to do the resulting work is too much now.
“interesting possibilities on the tech side” sounds much like Elon saying Tesla is not a car company but a software company. -
That plan wont work because of insurance contracts, hospital privileges, and licensing barriers.
The fact of the matter is that you cant scale this business unless you develop some high functioning AI solution. That may eventually happen but RP/PE are basically a service subscription for hospitals. It will never be the primary developer and provider of an AI solution product.
They are just a service contract middleman. A true rent seeker that adds zero value to patients and society
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Yeah agreed. In theory economies of scale could work. Let’s say if RP has all 3000+ RADS credentialed at every single one of their hospitals across the country… imagine that. There would literally never be downtime. You would always have stuff to read and never a clean list.
Radiologists are humans though. I feel like I work harder when the list creeps up. It’s like gamification of the list with the goal to crush it until the list is zero then it becomes whack a mole. If I had an endless list in front of me, 20k studies deep which can never be zero, I’m not sure how that would affect me. I get so called list anxiety when the list gets to 50- I go into hyperdrive and become goal oriented to vanquish the list. What goal do you have when the list is thousands deep? To reach a certain RVU level? Nah, sorry doesn’t do it for me. Not satisfying in the least. Besides, if you’re only RVU driven, why pick up x-rays or other low value studies. It would be cherry picking galore. I’ve actually heard that a lot of these RP sites have x-rays on the lists for up to a week or more because of this. -
In response to a much earlier message:
Situation is not manageable to the boots on the ground
Probably easily manageable to the guys at the top though. They just say “there is a radiologist shortage” and keep their contracts. I have heard of them losing a few contracts recently though.
Source: I work at a crumbling RP group. Probably 25-30 percent understaffed for the past year. I’m leaving as a result. One of the rads just said I quit and walked out halfway through the day a few weeks ago, nobody has heard from them since lol
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Quote from anonrad454
In response to a much earlier message:
Situation is not manageable to the boots on the ground
Probably easily manageable to the guys at the top though. They just say “there is a radiologist shortage” and keep their contracts. I have heard of them losing a few contracts recently though.
Source: I work at a crumbling RP group. Probably 25-30 percent understaffed for the past year. I’m leaving as a result. One of the rads just said I quit and walked out halfway through the day a few weeks ago, nobody has heard from them since lol
Whoa that is crazy. Someone literally said fark this and walked out. Friend of mine had an RP recruiter call them today. They love to talk about one year to partner and crap like that. Its like weaponizing the typical private practice partnership thought process. You are never a full eat what you kill partner at RP. The bigwigs at RP are the slimey ones that are eating what you kill- they are enjoying your breakfast, lunch and dinner at their gated communities with a bugatti in the garage and gold bars in their safes.
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Quote from jd4540
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power.Private equity doesn’t have power. They can’t hire because they can’t pay competitive market wages relative to private practices. Why make 40% less for the same amount of work? What’s the value proposition of private equity for a 32 year old fresh fellowship graduate? RP is circling the drain and spending 1-2 years in a dead end RP “partnership in name only” is not what kids want these days.
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field.
I am no fan of RP/PE, but as long as they keep expanding I can only assume recruitment/retainment issues are manageable at this time
Speaking as someone in large RP group going through a death spiral, the recruitment issues have been unmanageable for the past two years and are accelerating with every passing week. Why join when there’s going to be a massive exodus of buyout partners in the next few years who already have their “**** you” money? Why join when your salary is massively below what you can get at a private practice? Why join when your vacation is stripped away to plug the massive understaffing holes?
Sure, RP can buy new groups. But for some reason they can’t afford to pay their employees and retain them. These days we don’t even have to move to leave our dead end RP jobs. We just go teleradiology and make the same amount or more with no commute. 🙂 -
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from jd4540
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power.Private equity doesn’t have power. They can’t hire because they can’t pay competitive market wages relative to private practices. Why make 40% less for the same amount of work? What’s the value proposition of private equity for a 32 year old fresh fellowship graduate? RP is circling the drain and spending 1-2 years in a dead end RP “partnership in name only” is not what kids want these days.
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field.
I am no fan of RP/PE, but as long as they keep expanding I can only assume recruitment/retainment issues are manageable at this time
Speaking as someone in large RP group going through a death spiral, the recruitment issues have been unmanageable for the past two years and are accelerating with every passing week. Why join when there’s going to be a massive exodus of buyout partners in the next few years who already have their “**** you” money? Why join when your salary is massively below what you can get at a private practice? Why join when your vacation is stripped away to plug the massive understaffing holes?
Sure, RP can buy new groups. But for some reason they can’t afford to pay their employees and retain them. These days we don’t even have to move to leave our dead end RP jobs. We just go teleradiology and make the same amount or more with no commute. 🙂
Good to know…Wishing you and your colleagues much greener pastures! -
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from jd4540
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power.Private equity doesn’t have power. They can’t hire because they can’t pay competitive market wages relative to private practices. Why make 40% less for the same amount of work? What’s the value proposition of private equity for a 32 year old fresh fellowship graduate? RP is circling the drain and spending 1-2 years in a dead end RP “partnership in name only” is not what kids want these days.
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field.
I am no fan of RP/PE, but as long as they keep expanding I can only assume recruitment/retainment issues are manageable at this time
Speaking as someone in large RP group going through a death spiral, the recruitment issues have been unmanageable for the past two years and are accelerating with every passing week. Why join when there’s going to be a massive exodus of buyout partners in the next few years who already have their “**** you” money? Why join when your salary is massively below what you can get at a private practice? Why join when your vacation is stripped away to plug the massive understaffing holes?
Sure, RP can buy new groups. But for some reason they can’t afford to pay their employees and retain them. These days we don’t even have to move to leave our dead end RP jobs. We just go teleradiology and make the same amount or more with no commute. 🙂
So what is keeping you there? Are you just biding your time till you can officially leave after getting the promised pay out? Do even think there will be a pay out that isn’t just ‘equity’?
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Quote from ultimaterads
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from jd4540
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power.Private equity doesn’t have power. They can’t hire because they can’t pay competitive market wages relative to private practices. Why make 40% less for the same amount of work? What’s the value proposition of private equity for a 32 year old fresh fellowship graduate? RP is circling the drain and spending 1-2 years in a dead end RP “partnership in name only” is not what kids want these days.
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field.
I am no fan of RP/PE, but as long as they keep expanding I can only assume recruitment/retainment issues are manageable at this time
Speaking as someone in large RP group going through a death spiral, the recruitment issues have been unmanageable for the past two years and are accelerating with every passing week. Why join when there’s going to be a massive exodus of buyout partners in the next few years who already have their “**** you” money? Why join when your salary is massively below what you can get at a private practice? Why join when your vacation is stripped away to plug the massive understaffing holes?
Sure, RP can buy new groups. But for some reason they can’t afford to pay their employees and retain them. These days we don’t even have to move to leave our dead end RP jobs. We just go teleradiology and make the same amount or more with no commute. 🙂
So what is keeping you there? Are you just biding your time till you can officially leave after getting the promised pay out? Do even think there will be a pay out that isn’t just ‘equity’?
I wasn’t a buyout partner. Non-buyout partners are offered something called “VPEP” which is worthless paper only equity in RP if it sells above a certain strike price which it will never do. RP doesn’t even try to make any effort to retain young radiologists. Buyout partners are all they care about. And many of those guys are only sticking around for the 5 years of their buyout and leaving for teleradiology once their buyouts vest.
When you leave a RP group you have to give 180 day notice which I’m currently going through. I’m going tele and staying in my current city which has a near total RP monopoly. The plan for many of us who have left is to reform a private practice group on site once RP loses hospital contracts here and our 2 year non-competes have expired. 1.6 billion of RP’s junk grade debt is due for refinancing in 2025 so timing wise we have a good opportunity to take advantage of RP’s incoming financial insolvency from higher interest rates.We aren’t alone in our plan. Similar rumblings are happening in other major metro areas where RP is teetering on the edge due to inability to recruit and pay competitive wages.
Lovely Ben White article describing the distress debt situation:
[link=https://www.benwhite.com/medicine/the-distressed-debt-of-healthcare-private-equity/]https://www.benwhite.com/…thcare-private-equity/[/link] -
I love it. Wish I could be part of taking over an RP site. Ill have to live through all of you. Wish you all good luck. RIP RP
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What does fully vesting your 5 years with RP get you? Are they actually buying back those shares from those rads for real money?
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Quote from 271819
What does fully vesting your 5 years with RP get you? Are they actually buying back those shares from those rads for real money?
This. Are people actually able to sell their vested shares in RP? I get that the nonbuyout partners have useless paper shares which sound like common stock, are the “buyout partners” getting preferred stock? Will they even allow for the sale of the preferred stock? I suspect there is some financial trap build into it. They are better at this game than we are and can outplay us every step. Rads sold their soul for monopoly money, and young rads pay the price.
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In any type of privately held “vested shares” model, one cannot sell/exchange/collateralize your shares unless there is a capitalization even. In this case (with events and circumstances discussed ad nauseam in this forum and others), a capitalization event is as likely as as the Detroit Pistons winning the NBA championship.
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Quote from Alwaysbereading
Quote from 271819
What does fully vesting your 5 years with RP get you? Are they actually buying back those shares from those rads for real money?
This. Are people actually able to sell their vested shares in RP? I get that the nonbuyout partners have useless paper shares which sound like common stock, are the “buyout partners” getting preferred stock? Will they even allow for the sale of the preferred stock? I suspect there is some financial trap build into it. They are better at this game than we are and can outplay us every step. Rads sold their soul for monopoly money, and young rads pay the price.
There’s no public or private market for it but yes they can sell them. If you ask Rich Whitney to his face if he’ll buy your RP equity for pennies on the dollar he will laugh at you and say no. Shows how much RP believes in their own value. LOL.
When another firm buys a piece of RP then you do get cash for that equity. Last time it happened was like 3 or 4 years ago. Obviously no one is eager to buy a piece of RP today. Maybe once it goes into insolvency… -
What will RP buy in 2023? Any new metros? Boise? Boston? Seattle, Portland?
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Quote from drad123
What will RP buy in 2023? Any new metros? Boise? Boston? Seattle, Portland?
Smart move by RP. Get even more debt while interest rates are high and your competition is too afraid to expand. They can just tell their radiologists to work harder and take less vacation. Retention isn’t an issue at all. They can just post even more job openings on ACR. 🙂 -
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
What will RP buy in 2023? Any new metros? Boise? Boston? Seattle, Portland?
Smart move by RP. Get even more debt while interest rates are high and your competition is too afraid to expand. They can just tell their radiologists to work harder and take less vacation. Retention isn’t an issue at all. They can just post even more job openings on ACR. 🙂
Are you just upset because RP fired you?
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Quote from drad123
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
What will RP buy in 2023? Any new metros? Boise? Boston? Seattle, Portland?
Smart move by RP. Get even more debt while interest rates are high and your competition is too afraid to expand. They can just tell their radiologists to work harder and take less vacation. Retention isn’t an issue at all. They can just post even more job openings on ACR. 🙂
Are you just upset because RP fired you?
Imagine thinking you could get fired from a RP group in April of 2023. They need every warm body they can get their hands on. -
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
Quote from bluedeep
Quote from drad123
What will RP buy in 2023? Any new metros? Boise? Boston? Seattle, Portland?
Smart move by RP. Get even more debt while interest rates are high and your competition is too afraid to expand. They can just tell their radiologists to work harder and take less vacation. Retention isn’t an issue at all. They can just post even more job openings on ACR. 🙂
Are you just upset because RP fired you?
Imagine thinking you could get fired from a RP group in April of 2023. They need every warm body they can get their hands on.
drad is a big fan of the lose a little on each case and make it up in volume plan. The funny thing is they also have no confidence in themselves to deal with “admin” that supposedly has all of the power. Must have been bullied as a kid. -
Getting back to the lawsuit.
I think this is a simple contract case. United had an agreement with singleton radiology, which they defined by contract as to how one is considered part of the practice, to reimburse at a higher rate. When rp took over it named the COO as the only member and shareholder of singleton radiology, despite the fact that hes not a radiologist nor had his name on any of the reports.
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Quote from prs1
Getting back to the lawsuit.
I think this is a simple contract case. United had an agreement with singleton radiology, which they defined by contract as to how one is considered part of the practice, to reimburse at a higher rate. When rp took over it named the COO as the only member and shareholder of singleton radiology, despite the fact that hes not a radiologist nor had his name on any of the reports.
The fact United let it go on so long suggests its not a cut and dry case. We will see.
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Well it’s not going on anymore so it doesn;t really matter if they get paid back. The RP business model is done.
Remember the RP shills on here that came on and told us they could negotiate better rates than smaller PP groups? This was it and it’s over! -
I mean they were billing United for a huge premium and they still couldn’t afford to hire enough radiologists or keep their debt at par while sending 30% to the suits and investors. What’s going to happen when they only get an average of Medcare rates across the board?
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Lets take over the radiology market, Rich Whitney said.
Like shooting fish in a barrel he said.
The radiologists will be forced to work for us at rates we set, he said.
We will sell the whole package to Wallstreet and walk away with billions, he said.
Hey it worked with nephrologists. They rolled up dialysis centers and sold them all to Wall street. Warren Buffett is the largest shareholder now.
Paying illegal kickback to nephrologists is a whole lot different ballgame than TAKING half a radiologist’s money. -not too enticing there.
[link=https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/davita-pay-350-million-resolve-allegations-illegal-kickbacks]https://www.justice.gov/o…ions-illegal-kickbacks[/link] -
What are you trying to say drad? It worked? Its going to continue to work?
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Drad and Frumi remind me of each other. Suffering, powerless and taken advantage of by the evil in this unjust world.
Why is AM the place to come on and complain? -
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What are you trying to say drad? It worked? Its going to continue to work?
I have no idea. Not looking good for PE now but I have been in this business long enough to know that things can change quickly.
Also I only do radiology, not trying to transform it. -
Gotcha. I rib you a bit but only because I believe you have more power as a radiologist than you think. We all do.
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Another point that will be used against PE is their monopoly in certain markets. Many think monopolies only refer to nationwide or international companies. Similar application of laws can be used at the regional level.
Also states with “no corporate practice of medicine” laws will be very interested. -
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Another point that will be used against PE is their monopoly in certain markets. Many think monopolies only refer to nationwide or international companies. Similar application of laws can be used at the regional level.
Also states with “no corporate practice of medicine” laws will be very interested.
Texas has such a law forbidding the corprate practice of medicine, RP huge there. Then again it is Texas, Love the state but not the politics.
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Private equity is establishing local monopolies in many sectors of the economy outside healthcare. Nursing homes, single family housing, prison food and phone services etc. And they are insulated from liability by how they structure their debt financed purchases. Only a matter of time before bipartisan hammer swings down on these people. Problem is politicians falling into private equity jobs after their stint in politics. Happens on both sides of the aisle. We should ban jobs in private equity after politics. Its incestuous
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
Private equity is establishing local monopolies in many sectors of the economy outside healthcare. Nursing homes, single family housing, prison food and phone services etc. And they are insulated from liability by how they structure their debt financed purchases. [b]Only a matter of time before bipartisan hammer swings down on these people. [/b] Problem is politicians falling into private equity jobs after their stint in politics. Happens on both sides of the aisle. We should ban jobs in private equity after politics. Its incestuous
This is wishful thinking. It seems so obvious but it would have happened a long time ago if it was just “a matter of time”.
There are plenty of representatives of both parties included in this mega donor class…. -
It’ll never happen. It is called crony capitalism and it runs rampant in the US.
We like to talk about how corrupt developing countries are, but the US is the same, we just hide it better. -
So true WD. In the meantime a choose to befriend them so they can fly me around on their private jets and put me up in their fancy vacation homes.
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So true WD. In the meantime a choose to befriend them so they can fly me around on their private jets and put me up in their fancy vacation homes.
Are you also providing nanny services or house cleaning? Sommelier services? PE folks don’t like to leave money on the table- not the ones I have come across.
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It’ll never happen. It is called crony capitalism and it runs rampant in the US.
Interesting whats it called when wealthy republican donors by Clarence Thomass mom a house or pay for his nephews 75,000 a year education or gives Clarence and his lovely wife a 3 million dollar 2 week vacation on his private mega yacht
What is that called?
Is that Crony Capitalism- or is that okay
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Well they probably aren’t your friends then.
Quite the opposite. My best friend who happens to be a managing director in a PE firm must be feeling guilty. He gave up his goal of going to medical school to attend HBS and now brings me along on trips and does not let me pay for anything. He says I deserve it, working so hard to take care of people while he’s sucking the life out of others.
I kind of feel Like Justice Thomas, except I have no power to do anything for him. -
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Well they probably aren’t your friends then.
Quite the opposite. My best friend who happens to be a managing director in a PE firm must be feeling guilty. He gave up his goal of going to medical school to attend HBS and now brings me along on trips and does not let me pay for anything. He says I deserve it, working so hard to take care of people while he’s sucking the life out of others.
I kind of feel Like Justice Thomas, except I have no power to do anything for him.
Hey you could always squeeze him onto the MR or CT scanner by pulling a few strings. Also advise on medical matters.
Just glad I don’t live in the bay area. It must be hard being surrounded by all that wealth. -
He lives in NYC and I dont. I could help him with imaging access but he is the Board Chairman of a major medical center there. He has no access problems.
I think I know what you mean about the Bay Area but I dont live there to confirm.
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Keep in mind he is probably very unusual for a PE type. I have know others that are real ***holes. I know some billionaires that you wound never think had a penny to their name and a bunch of docs that treat others like crap because they think they are so much smarter.
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Quote from drad123
Sommelier services?
Come to think of it, yes. If by that you mean suggesting bottles from the list that are more expensive than I could ever afford. One of the great perks of being a sommelier is drinking great wine. I know many that do it for that reason only. Very few get rich off of it. -
My family is from South America and I would visit 1-3 times a year growing up. Pretty much was the only place we would vacation as a kid. I remember growing up and hearing about the corruption there I once asked my cousin why doesnt he go into politics and get rich. He loved politics and all. He just tells me how its not even a challenge. At least in the US have to be smart on how you do it..here they just tell you they are going to steal look at you in the eyes and they do it.
Turns out He did get into politics after university but he was not as smart as he thought he was and got into a scandal . he was the Lowest on the hill and covered in all the poop. He did take some advantage early on but then was forced into legal issues while those above and more connected stole even more and kept their jobs. -
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Both Envision and Rp have now been in lawsuits with UnitedHealthcare.
United is used to paying small groups 110% of medicare. United doesn’t like private equity power.Private equity doesn’t have power. They can’t hire because they can’t pay competitive market wages relative to private practices. Why make 40% less for the same amount of work? What’s the value proposition of private equity for a 32 year old fresh fellowship graduate? RP is circling the drain and spending 1-2 years in a dead end RP “partnership in name only” is not what kids want these days.
Greedy Boomers and Gen Xers ruined private practice in many parts of the United States by selling out our field.
I am no fan of RP/PE, but as long as they keep expanding I can only assume recruitment/retainment issues are manageable at this time
Speaking as someone in large RP group going through a death spiral, the recruitment issues have been unmanageable for the past two years and are accelerating with every passing week. Why join when there’s going to be a massive exodus of buyout partners in the next few years who already have their “**** you” money? Why join when your salary is massively below what you can get at a private practice? Why join when your vacation is stripped away to plug the massive understaffing holes?
Sure, RP can buy new groups. But for some reason they can’t afford to pay their employees and retain them. These days we don’t even have to move to leave our dead end RP jobs. We just go teleradiology and make the same amount or more with no commute. 🙂
So what is keeping you there? Are you just biding your time till you can officially leave after getting the promised pay out? Do even think there will be a pay out that isn’t just ‘equity’?
I wasn’t a buyout partner. Non-buyout partners are offered something called “VPEP” which is worthless paper only equity in RP if it sells above a certain strike price which it will never do. RP doesn’t even try to make any effort to retain young radiologists. Buyout partners are all they care about. And many of those guys are only sticking around for the 5 years of their buyout and leaving for teleradiology once their buyouts vest.
When you leave a RP group you have to give 180 day notice which I’m currently going through. I’m going tele and staying in my current city which has a near total RP monopoly. The plan for many of us who have left is to reform a private practice group on site once RP loses hospital contracts here and our 2 year non-competes have expired. 1.6 billion of RP’s junk grade debt is due for refinancing in 2025 so timing wise we have a good opportunity to take advantage of RP’s incoming financial insolvency from higher interest rates.
We aren’t alone in our plan. Similar rumblings are happening in other major metro areas where RP is teetering on the edge due to inability to recruit and pay competitive wages.
Lovely Ben White article describing the distress debt situation:
[link=https://www.benwhite.com/medicine/the-distressed-debt-of-healthcare-private-equity/]https://www.benwhite.com/…thcare-private-equity/[/link]Yeah the Ben White article is excellent. How is the morale amongst the partners at these RP groups? Are they regretting their decision or ok with it? Seems like they just got paid X amount up front but then took a pay cut, so it maybe a wash at the end? Not to mention the fake BS equity that is worthless like you said.
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The risk is really just to the bond and stock holders. The Rads will be fine if the job markets stay as they are, which demographics favor. -
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Yeah the Ben White article is excellent. How is the morale amongst the partners at these RP groups? Are they regretting their decision or ok with it? Seems like they just got paid X amount up front but then took a pay cut, so it maybe a wash at the end? Not to mention the fake BS equity that is worthless like you said.
Non-buyout partners morale is non-existent since they just get the 40% drop in salary with no upside. The buyout partners somewhat regret their decision of taking a mix of cash and RP equity (I think it was like a 60/40 split). Some who were arguing in favor of the sale now admit that they killed the group openly. I doubt a single one would give back the money if they could do it all over again, though. They’ll just move on to other groups as telerads and then not face any consequences of destroying their previous practice. Truly these people deserve a scarlet letter and non-sellout private practices should not hire them as a lesson to all. But with how hot the job market it is you’d hire even Rich Whitney (RP CEO) if he could read the list.
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Quote from tigershark06
Yeah sure guys a player as big as RP is going to do something like this without a team lawyers having gamed out the possibilities and having some weasel legal argument ready.
At its heart I beat the legal argument will be along the lines of:
X group negotiated a contract.
RP buys X group, thus it is now RPs contract
RP argues since they are now X group, they can use the contract for all of RPs business.
It will come down to if there was language in the contract that allowed it to be transferred to new owners or not (forgetting the legal term, maybe someone knows the term).Overall I bet the celebrating is premature as this is like a skirmish in a larger war between two big players.
Probably what Enron lawyers thought too. Enron was also big and weasely. Didn’t save them tho.
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[link=https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67194074/1/united-healthcare-of-texas-inc-v-radiology-partners-inc/]https://www.courtlistener…adiology-partners-inc/[/link]
Nice
Enormous money grubbing corporation vs moderate size money grubbing corporation
I hope nobody wins.
Any thoughts of how this actually plays out? Some type of settlement?
