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The non-viability and fraud of the ‘electric car’
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Billain also convenieintly ignores the effect of the govt as consumer of goods. How many products succeed because ultimately the govt is the main purchaser. Would Big Pharma be funding R&D to the same extent if the govt was negotiating prices like our Canadian and European counterparts?
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Quote from Thor
Billain also convenieintly ignores the effect of the govt as consumer of goods. How many products succeed because ultimately the govt is the main purchaser. Would Big Pharma be funding R&D to the same extent if the govt was negotiating prices like our Canadian and European counterparts?
The govt has NO money. The only money the govt “has” is money it takes from somewhere else. So any goods bought by the govt just takes $$$ away from goods that would have been obtained—-with more efficiency–in the private sector.
If you are correct, why shouldn’t the government buy ALL GOODS. In your world 100% taxation would be great, the govt would buy all goods and all the wonderful R&D products would boom. Socialism (and her cousin—crony capitalism) fails. Everytime.-
Really no money? Go try to barter for everything then. I am not sure what private sector efficiency would develop AIDS or metastatic cancer drugs. The purchasers of these do not have the means to purchase them without govt assistance. Many of the R&D products that have relevance only because the govt was an early adopter and allowed further refinement. Show me the R&D in Somalia–there is your pure free market
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Quote from Thor
Really no money? Go try to barter for everything then.
Basic economics. Economies are not vacuums. Every action has a cost associated. Any money the govt has–it had to take from another sector of the economy. So developing that wonderful new AIDS drug may mean the Stroke prevention pill doesn’t get developed.
Quote from Thor
Show me the R&D in Somalia–there is your pure free marketWhat is it with libtards and the Somalia card? Africa scores the lowest on the economic freedom index. Is that why it’s such a disaster? Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland have the highest economic freedom.
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Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland have the highest economic freedom.
Interesting. That “economic freedom” stat must not correllate inversely with governmental R&D suppor.
Australia and New Zealand both make large investments and Singapore and Switzerland both spend similar to slightly greater amounts on R&D as a %age of GDP.
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Quote from dergon
Australia and New Zealand both make large investments and Singapore and Switzerland both spend similar to slightly greater amounts on R&D as a %age of GDP.
And the reason they can do that is because more economic freedom means more available money for the govt to burn. Unfortunately, we are broke and the only thing keeping us afloat are these extraordinarily low price-fixed interest rates. Our bonds are essentially ARMs and when interest rates rise, even slightly, we become Greece, instantly.
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Wait…. So if we could get control of health care spending and SS…basically get our deficits under control….. you would then be in favor of greater government investment in R&D?
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Well, if we weren’t broke, and you INSISTED on wasting money, I’d say R&D, with a chance of success, would be a better expenditure than universal Pre-K, a concept PROVEN to not work.
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Sh*t. That’s as close as I’m ever going to come to winning an argument in OT!
*drops the mic and walks off stage*
🙂
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Somalia is low on economic freedom…huh…why is that…govt too much into R&D? Govt doesn’t allow business start ups? Or is it too little and dysfunctional govt?
The only reason our money is worth anything is the backing of the govt. The dollar does not contain a dollar’s worth of paper; not even the penny contains one cent of copper. If you want to get back to a pure barter system fine, but then everything has no extrinsic value just what you can get in return.
And get this through your skull–we are not Greece. We have our own currency and thus not at the whim of the other European nations and there is no other country that is replacing us any time soon…no one is moving to the yuan.
If all the strong dollar weenies would get it through their head that with a little devaluing we could pay off our debts faster and export more and we might make some progress, but anyone who suggests that has to deal with the inflation zombies (cuz inflation will be here any minute now).-
Quote from Thor
If all the strong dollar weenies would get it through their head that with a little devaluing we could pay off our debts faster and export more and we might make some progress, but anyone who suggests that has to deal with the inflation zombies (cuz inflation will be here any minute now).
No inflation? I guess your butler buys food and gas for you. The govt has cooked the books on inflation, the CPI is divorced from reality. When will you get it through your skull that we live in a world market and a weaker dollar makes you POORER. Somalia? LOL. Go to Zimbabwe—aka Bernanke land—their currency is so weak, everyone in the whole country is a TRILLIONAIRE, why isn’t it a paradise of R&D?
You will get your wish. The days of the so-called dollar (it’s actually not a constitutional dollar) as a reserve currency are numbered……..when the buying power falls, what will you buy? Imports will be exceedingly expensive and there is no longer a broad production base in the US—worse there is no capital (capital=savings) to create tools of production because we spent it all.-
Ah, so Bill is one who sees conspiracies around us. Another Truther, this time government deliberately toppled the world economy to, to…….ah, what was the plan? Oh, make everyone dependent on government so we can be used as batteries. Wait, that was a movie.
Well, I know they want to enslave us somehow for some reason.
You should be on Beck’s show.
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Quote from Frumious
Ah, so Bill is one who sees conspiracies around us. Another Truther, this time government deliberately toppled the world economy to, to……
Nobody set out to topple the world economy. It was a misguided high-intention socialistic belief perpetuated by some republicans (Jack Kemp, GW Bush, VP Cheney) and all democrats that govt can enforce social equity by interfering in housing. Get over it. Not everyone deserves a free house or a free cell phone or a ridiculous $9/hr minimum wage and govt mandates to legislate social parity are destructive. Heck, the govt is overpaying radiologists, too and that’s why Obamacare will be forced on us—to our peril.You Keynesian idiots shouted conspiracy in ’06-’07. But who called the crash? Ben Bernanke? No. Paul Krugman? No. Any other liberal econ professors? Ha! The neocon Bushies like Ben Stein? Ha!
It was Ron Paul’s economic advisor that called it, with haunting accuracy:
[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz_yw0kq3MM[/link]
The “Government Bubble” will burst next and will make ’08 look like a day in the park.
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Quote from RVU
please cite evidence of government innovation and production in the last 20 years that can legitimately compete with my list.
-Protease Inhibitors (Hoffman-LaRoache) along with Atripla pretty much halted the AIDS epidemic.
-Bird Flu Vaccine//Pentacel 5-in-1 vaccine (Sanofi Pasteur)
-Craig Venter. First his private company Celera genomic sequenced the human genome first (despite starting more than 1/2 decade after the govt sponsored Human Genome project, and being gentlemanly enough to finish as a joint project with the govt, so the project was finished 3 years ahead of time). Dr. Venter’s techniques are now standard used in the field of molecular genetics. Meanwhile the US government wasted billions on the Human Genome project that was done with private capital using 1/4th of the money and less than 1/2 of the time.
-Now, there’s Gleevec. And Dr. Venter’s private companies genomic medicine is rapidly changing cancer therapy
-Animal cloning (which will soon lead to organ cloning).
-Genetically modified, heartier crops.
-Exponential growth of computing power, data compression, memory and software.
-Smart Phones.
-Free online, publicly accessible Internet software (word processing, etc)
-Free online, publicly accessible comprehensive encyclopedias
-Free online, information/newspapers from everywhere around the world
-Free online advanced education training
-Online access to all medical journals-most of which can be freely accessed.
-Online education.
-Aunt Minnie.com
-E-readers.
-Google (the government would still have us at Alta vista with webaddress result if left up to them).
-Cable modem/Broadband
-Peer-to-peer networks/You Tube/Facebook (go on VPGore or any other 80s era democrat and crow about email, sir!)
-Multi-slice/Isotropic CT imaging
-DICOM , imaging compression, and remote medical imaging.
-tPA and the plummeting death rates of heart disease.
-Herceptin
-Drug-eluting stents
-Gardasil
-The rise of private space industry, which goes hand and hand with the deadly failures of NASA in the last 20 yrs.
-Horizontal Slickwater Fracking
Just move past Lux (aka Nobody 2008, Back in The Saddle-all with the same poor-man’s condescending overuse of underlines, italics and bold face) aimlessly bloviating with circumlocution fit for a perpetual low-level forgotten graduate student who’s taken more than a decade to finish up his PhD.
Still waiting for a list of all the government inspired or majority created innovations, products etc. in the last 20 years. Here are more additions to the list of private industry R&D and product production that have made tangible difference in American society.
DVD
Pentium chip
Nanotechnology
Retinal Implants
Java (Sun Microsystems-no more graphic-poor green text for internet destinations . Take that Al Gore!)
Birth control patch
Camera Pill
Self-cleaning windows
Infrared EtOH tests
Heart Assist devices (VAD)
Olyset Net (Malaria protection)
Oh yeah credit the US government with anti-missile defense…Patriot Missiles and Iron Dome. Since it’s proven to be effective, we should be investing more into it. However, for some odd reason, most liberals vehemently reject the idea and innovation of anti-missile defense. Are they that anti-science and against empirical proof? (i.e. Gaza strip terrorists Hamas having over 98% of their Iranain supplied rockets that are fired into Israel intercepted).
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RVU, wake up . The discussion is not that private forces never invented anything. Wrong discussion.
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Bill, others called the crash too, none of them acolytes of Rand Paul. Like Roubini. Some had been predicting the crash for years. Why leave them out?
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Its really moot who predicted it. Its more important who DIDN’T. And the fact is the government–with its Harvard economists–had no idea. Check out the pre-crash quotes–the show nothing less than utter incompetence. Yet you are fine with this confederacy of dunces distributing an even larger section of our GDP.
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You only know WHEN it was going to happen by 20/20 hindsight. No one, including Paul could predict when, either by hour, day, week, month or even what year the market would collapse. People had been predicting for some years that it was going to & when it didn’t happen they were called Chicken Littles. The market had been declining for a few years before it all collapsed suddenly in a heap. Even after it fell McCain for example and others were still saying how the markets were “sound.”
Besides, I never liked the Confederacy of Dunces in the White House at the time anyway as my past posts would attest & you are talking through your hat, or a place further south and behind.-
Quote from Frumious
No one, including Paul could predict when, either by hour, day, week, month or even what year the market would collapse.
You can’t specifically predict the markets, that’s the central tenet of Austrian economics. I am glad you see the light.
“aggregate statistical models are not appropriate tools with which to model purposeful action or to analyze the economic results thereof”Quote from Frumious
Besides, I never liked the Confederacy of Dunces in the White House at the time anyway as my past posts would attest & you are talking through your hat, or a place further south and behind.
Govt is incompetent. I’m glad you see the light, part II. So why should I trust them to dole out R&D funds to the detriment of the companies that don’t get them?
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Quote from billainsworth
You can’t specifically predict the markets, that’s the central tenet of Austrian economics. I am glad you see the light.
“aggregate statistical models are not appropriate tools with which to model purposeful action or to analyze the economic results thereof”Quote from Frumious
Besides, I never liked the Confederacy of Dunces in the White House at the time anyway as my past posts would attest & you are talking through your hat, or a place further south and behind.
Govt is incompetent. I’m glad you see the light, part II. So why should I trust them to dole out R&D funds to the detriment of the companies that don’t get them?
Shocker! You’re an austrian!
Capitalists are incompetent. Why should I trust them to control the economy? Look what they did in 2008! In 1929! It was in both cases your “incompetent government” that bailed us out of their malfeasance. -
BTW how did your Austrian theories work in the 1920’s in Europe?
Not so good. -
Quote from Frumious
Shocker! You’re an austrian!
Capitalists are incompetent. Why should I trust them to control the economy? Look what they did in 2008! In 1929! It was in both cases your “incompetent government” that bailed us out of their malfeasance.
There WASN’T capitalism in ’08. The GOVT price fixed interest rates. Fannie/Freddy distorted the market with GOVT backed loans. And govt-connected bankers reaped the rewards. A controlled economy is NOT capitalism.
The root cause of the depression was a loose monetary policy by the Fed. -
Check your history. Unregulated markets in the past weren’t exactly Nirvana. Those disruptions created more pain than we are experiencing in the present. And they happened fairly frequently.
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Quote from Frumious
. Those disruptions created more pain than we are experiencing in the present. And they happened fairly frequently.
Like the dutch tulip panic maybe? Of course there are ups and downs in the business cycle…..GOVT makes it worse, not better.
Well, the Great Depression happened AFTER the creation of the fed—which was created SPECIFICALLY to avoid severe depressions, how’d you do on that? . And, mark my words, the current depression has only been temporized by borrowing and money printing…….it is going to get MUCH, MUCH worse.
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I’m not one to believe that “natural” is better. When it rains I don’t think it natural to get wet, I wear a raincoat or an umbrella. I am not anti-mankind who always makes things worse than the natural order of things. We have a brain so we use it. Not perfectly but then what is? Getting wet is not better than staying dry. I’ll stick with umbrellas even though they can turn inside out or the raincoat make you sweat from the inside-out.
Not ready for the nudist colony. Everyone doesn’t look like models. Government is my umbrella and raincoat. -
Quote from Frumious
I’ll stick with umbrellas even though they can turn inside out or the raincoat make you sweat from the inside-out.
Except the fed is handing you a hose!
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Quote from billainsworth
I’m glad you see the light, part II.
Hint #1: I think Frumious may be talking about the incompetence of the [u][i]previous[/i][/u] POTUS’ admin, not the current one.
Hint #2.[i] “…a place farther south and behind[/i]” is not a reference to Australia.
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Quote from Lux
Hint #1: I think Frumious may be talking about the incompetence of the [u][i]previous[/i][/u] POTUS’ admin, not the current one.
Borrow, spend, price-fix interest rates, and print money are all same policies pushed by both Obama and Bush. It’s a government problem, not a Dem/Rep problem. We need a much, much weaker and smaller government, doesn’t matter who is in office.
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Quote from billainsworth
Borrow, spend, price-fix interest rates, and print money are all same policies pushed by both Obama and Bush. It’s a government problem, not a Dem/Rep problem. We need a much, much weaker and smaller government, doesn’t matter who is in office.
Made me think of this op-ed I read yesterday on the potential path to success for the fragile libertarian/conservative republican coalition.
[link=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/02/18/conservatives_libertarians_and_herding_cats__117042.html]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/02/18/conservatives_libertarians_and_herding_cats__117042.html[/link]This translates, he argues, into two big takeaways for todays right-leaning frenemies. Libertarians need to come to grips with the fact that the era of big government is here to stay. Any attempt to significantly dismantle the welfare state, for example, is likely to fail, he says; clear-eyed attempts to limit and reform it will be more successful. Social conservatives, meanwhile, need to accept that the sexual revolution has significantly changed our nations mores, and that using the federal government to force-feed traditional values is likely to fail, or, worse, backfire.
Berkowitz aims to resolve a dilemma that has faced conservatives for centuries: reconciling liberty with tradition, order, and virtue. In broad strokes, his approach makes perfect sense. When it comes to gay marriage, the cultural ship has sailed; social safety nets, it seems obvious to say, share near universal approval.
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Again, look at times before the Fed. Not Nirvana.
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Quote from Frumious
Again, look at times before the Fed. Not Nirvana.
What are you talking about? The 19th century USA was the period of greatest economic expansion the world has ever seen.
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Quote from billainsworth
Quote from Frumious
Again, look at times before the Fed. Not Nirvana.
What are you talking about? The 19th century USA was the period of greatest economic expansion the world has ever seen.
And if you attribute that to anything other than…
1. The commercialization of crude oil,
2. Edison’s commercialization of the light bulb, and,
3. Tesla’s commercialization of alternating current
…then you’re delusional.
I only WISH there were such low-hanging technological fruit left for us to exploit like there was back then.
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Let’s see
Panic of 1797
1802-1804 recession
1807 depression
1812 recession
1815-1821 depression
1822-1823 recession
1825-1826 recession
1828-1829 recession
1833-1834 recession
1836-1844 recession
1847-1848 recession
1853-1854 recession
Panic of 1857
1860-1861 recessioon
1865-1867 recession
1869-1870 recession
Panic of 1873 and the Long Depression (1879)
1882-1885 recession
1887-1888 recession
1890-1891 recession
Panic of 1893
Panic of 1896
1901 Stock crash & 1902-1904 recession
Panic of 1907
Panic of 1910-1911
1913-1914recession
Post WWI recession
Great Depression 1929-1933
Recession of 1937
Didn’t you get this boring list in grade and high school? I kept thinking, what’s wrong with these people, they have a crisis every couple of years!
Let’s not forget Jackson closing the 2nd Bank of the US, paying off 100% debt in 1835 and then the recession of 1837 to 1844.Not exactly Nirvana.
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Blips in the normal business cycle. Points remain that the Great Depresion was Post-fed and the fed was purposely created to end depressions. Point remains the 19th century US saw the greatest economic expansion the world has ever seen.
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Post crash 1929, didn’t we try the Austrian monetary approach, making everything worse?
Blips? You are a True Believer. No mere inconvenient facts will disturb your little belief system.
I’d Rx some badly need history lessons but they’d apparently be wasted on you.-
Quote from Frumious
Post crash 1929, didn’t we try the Austrian monetary approach, making everything worse?
So you are now admitting govt interference got us into that mess but we can blame the austrians for not gettin us out!! LOL.
Any evidence we tried Austrian school?? We had wage controls, price supports, public works projects, and govt bailouts and I am talking about Hoover’s policies—despite revisionist historians that paint Hoover as laissez-faire. Laissez-Faire was policy in 1819 with much better result than 1929.
Despite what keynsians claim—’29 and 2008 prove it–you can’t make recessions/depressions disappear but laissez faire will mitigate the damage.-
A nice piece in [i]The Economist[/i] to bring us back on topic:
The potential of the lithium-air battery to replace Li-ion and dramtically increase range.
[link=http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2013/02/energy-storage]http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2013/02/energy-storage[/link]
Long before Sony introduced the first commercial lithium-ion battery in 1991, lithium-air was being touted as ideal for electric vehicles. That was back in the 1970s, following the first of the oil shocks that tripled petroleum prices and sent carmakers scurrying for alternative fuels and better energy-storage systems.
It took less than 20 years for lithium-ion, despite its thermal instability problems, to go from powering laptops, phones and other portable devices, to becoming the leading contender for heavy-duty applications such as electric vehicles, plug-in hybrids and even aircraft. So why has it taken twice as long for lithium-airan even lighter and more powerful storage technologyto make it barely out of the laboratory?
The short answer is the difficulty in building lithium-air cells that can be recharged thousands of times. While the battery in a mobile phone is expected to last no more than two to three years (say, 1,000 recharging cycles at most) before the phone is tossed for a later model, motorists expect electric vehicles to come with at least 100,000-mile warranties on their batteries (say, 3,000 recharging cycles at the very least).
The protection technology has even made it possible to use seawater instead of air as a source of oxygenlike the gills of a fish. With an eye on the marine market, PolyPlus has already built a lithium-seawater battery that puts out 1,300 watt-hours per kilogramthree times more than lithium-ions theoretical maximum. The companys long-term goal is to use this know-how to advance its own lithium-air system. PolyPluss first commercial applications are destined for consumer electronics. Later, when the the number of recharging cycles is high enough, the plan is to tackle the electric-vehicle market.PolyPlus will not be alone. Last month, Toyota agreed to share its battery know-how with BMW, in exchange for a steady supply of modern diesel engines from 2014 onwards. The collaboration includes the development of an advanced lithium-air battery as well as a new fuel-cell for vehicles Toyota plans to start selling in 2015.
Meanwhile, IBMs Battery 500 Project, launched in 2009 at the companys Almaden research laboratory in San Jose, California, aims to develop a lithium-air battery capable of propelling a car 500 miles on a single charge. Like PolyPlus, much of the research has focused on finding the most appropriate electrolyte and developing a membrane that can filter pure, dry oxygen from the atmosphere.
IBM is not doing this out of idle curiosity. Like everyone else bidding for a piece of the business, it truly believes there will be a seriously large market for advanced traction batteries once they have the storage density to rival petrol and are capable of providing years of trouble-free motoring. When will that be? The consensus is early in the next decade.
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And just as I write about Li-air, here is a piece on Sodium-Air batteries coming :
[link=http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/149779-sodium-air-batteries-could-replace-lithium-air-as-the-battery-of-the-future]http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/149779-sodium-air-batteries-could-replace-lithium-air-as-the-battery-of-the-future[/link]
Though the capacity of the sodium-air is much lower than the lithium-air, sitting around 1600Wh/kg, its at least significantly higher than a lithium-ion, and much easier to make than the lithium-air. One end of the battery has a sodium electrode, on which an electrolyte is sandwiched underneath a carbon electrode that oxygen can travel through. The electron travels around the battery, the ionic metal dissolves into the electrolyte which in turn travels to the carbon electrode and hits the oxygen.
Though this is still in an experimental form, researchers found that not only does the sodium-air hold more charge than a lithium-air battery, but is easier to charge as well. It was mentioned above that lithium-air has a theoretical density of more than double the sodium-air, but as it turns out, the sodium-air has a higher density in practice (that isnt to say that, one day, lithium-air wont reach its enormous density destiny).
At the moment, though, a sodium-air can only be charged around eight times before it dies for good. Hopefully, scientists will be able to figure out why that is, and bring us a battery that can power our mobile devices for long periods of time without us having to conserve the power after a long night out.
It’s experimental, for sure, but better batteries will be coming at some point.-
Hooray for another proclamation of a more effective battery. But, lets not start basing policy on lab experiments. Remember cold fusion?
Electric cars arent an alternative to the combustible engine and wont be for the foreseeable future.
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Quote from RVU
Hooray for another proclamation of a more effective battery. But, lets not start basing policy on lab experiments. Remember cold fusion?
Electric cars arent an alternative to the combustible engine and wont be for the foreseeable future.
Reminds me of the stimulus-funded solar panels that worked great, but the only problem was they caught fire when the sun hit ’em. Good job government!
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Cold Fusion? What hole did you pull that out from? What’s cold fusion got to do with anything as an example? For what?
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[link=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-24/tesla-buick-rankings-bolster-u-s-carmakers-in-consumer-reports]http://www.bloomberg.com/…rs-in-consumer-reports[/link]
Tesla gets top spot on Consumer Reports list.
U.S. cars, including the battery-powered Tesla Model S, account for three of the top 10 picks by automobile testers at Consumer Reports for the first time since 1998.
Tesla Motors Inc.s $89,650 Model S was the top overall pick for the second year in a row by the independent product-testing magazine. General Motors Co.s Buick Regal was named the best sports sedan, a category the BMW AG 328i won last year, and its Chevrolet Impala was the top luxury sedan.
For years, domestic automakers built lower-priced and lower-quality alternatives to imports, but those days are behind us, said Jake Fisher, Consumer Reports director of automotive testing. Today many domestic models can go toe-to-toe with the best imports.
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Fraud indeed.
[link=http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/the-car-that-killed-glamour/407248/]http://www.theatlantic.co…killed-glamour/407248/[/link]
The Tesla Model S is a supercar without equal. Recently, the P85D trim[link=http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tesla-model-s-p85d-breaks-consumer-reports-ratings-system] broke the Consumer Reports rating system[/link], earning a score of 103 out of 100. They rounded down to just 100, calling it closest to perfect we’ve ever seen. The Model S accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in under 3.5 seconds, via an electric motor that produces zero emissions.
If thats not quick enough for you, there are faster cars available. The 2016 Lamborghini Aventador LP750-4 Superveloce, for example, takes you there in 2.7 secondsbut itll cost you over half a million dollars, versus the Teslas comparatively modest $127,820. And you wont feel safe parking it anywhere. By contrast, the Tesla is startlingly practical. If you live in a major city, youve probably already noticed that Tesla Model Ss are quickly replacing the BMW 7s, the Mercedes Ss, and the Porsche Panameras in all the chi-chi hotel valet docks and stately home portes-cochère. Its still expensive, but for those who can afford a luxury car, its a great value.
The Tesla can almost keep up despite being 1,300 pounds heavier. Impressive. But just look at it. If the Tesla wore pants, theyd be Dockers. Pleated ones, smelling of Tide, flanked by a dangling convention lanyard. The Lamborghini, by contrast: low and rawboned, reeking of grease and cologne, engorged with zeal and pride.
The Tesla is perhaps the first supercar actively to eschew the lust once inseparable from the segment. Its not unattractive, but it sure is humdrum, its ordinary lines rehearsing ordinary deeds. [i]Car & Driver[/i][link=http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2016-lamborghini-aventador-sv-photos-and-info-news] called[/link] the new Aventador Superveloce the very definition of a bedroom-poster car. Everyone may want a Tesla, but nobody wants one adorning their wall. This is a practical dream, stripped of carnal passion. A supercar with love handles instead of haunches.
Undermining the supercar identity fantasy isnt just an accident; its part of Teslas future legacy. The Tesla is not just any old car, after all. Its the electric car that sounds the death knell for ordinary automotive life.
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not sure what you’re saying is fraud. This is not a really good comparison in my mind, a Tesla vs. the race car variety Lambo. Maybe better compared to a Vette. A new vette @ $55k will run a 0-60 in under 4, and get 29mpg thanks to the block that makes it shift from 1st to 4th. A Z06 variety for around $80k will get you closer to 3 second trap times.
That Lambo might compare to a Ferrari, Porsche or soemthing like that.-
The best kind of car and the only kind I need is the kind that can get you from place to place reliably and safely with decent gas mileage and last a good number of years without too much hassle. It is a useful tool and often necessity. Often people don’t really love *you* because you drive the fanciest Tesla or Maserati. A fancy car is also a depreciating asset, unless you are an Uber driver or chauffer or a car salesperson. Too fancy a car can also attract the wrong kind of attention, if I can be frank. If somebody gave me a Maserati or Model X or S Tesla, I would be very happy and then sell it immediately before it depreciates any more.
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RVU, the original poster of this thread called electric cars a fraud & non-viable.
As for comparison, many posters complained of Tesla’s price as if if we’re competing as a Chevy. The article points out that Tesla’s performance is not far from the Lamborghini at a fraction of the cost.
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Here’s a p85d vs a SV on YouTube [link]http://youtu.be/0e-jquwHKtI[/link] it appears as if the Lambo will eat the Teslas lunch on the top end.
Now in my mind the half priced stingray is the better buy. You can buy a lot of gas for the amount you save.
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0 to 60 in 3.2 sec using “Ludirus speed” mode is sick. Too bad that it looks like a Prius. Not quite the Bond car. For $130K, I want a cat that looks cool too.
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Tesla has proved the efficacy and even the desirability of the electric car, but at $60k-$130K, even the Pope won’t be buying one. The overall dent in pollution (even if you discount the pollution required to generate the electricity to charge the darn things) is not even measurable.
If and when Tesla or others extrapolate this technology down to the Prius price point ($25K or so) then there could [i]possibly[/i] be an impact. Of course we’ll have to bring more coal-fired power plants online to service the increased need for electricity!-
Quote from DoctorDalai
Of course we’ll have to bring more coal-fired power plants online to service the increased need for electricity!
Electric cars do not make environmental sense if the electricity they use is generated from coal.
I don’t think there are many people out there who envision a future with a large proportion of the market consisting of electric cars who don’t also envision a future in which renewable sources dominate electricity generation.
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Tesla needs to sell solar panels as an option. They would probably be 10’x10′.
Don’t forget to take the pollution required to manufacture the solar and other alternative energy acquisition devices into account…-
Quote from DoctorDalai
Tesla needs to sell solar panels as an option. They would probably be 10’x10′.
Don’t forget to take the pollution required to manufacture the solar and other alternative energy acquisition devices into account…
I won’t forget.
The title of this paper says it succinctly: [url=http://envimpact.org/node/93]
[b]Solar energy: better than fossil fuels, worse than anything else.[/b] [/url]Solar energy is much, much cleaner than coal or natural gas, but still not as good as wind or hydroelectric.
It is true that most of the impact is caused by the resource depletion — solar panels use silver, which is quite scarce material. Hopefully, newer technologies will be able to alleviate this problem.
However, even if we discount the resource depletion part of the solar energy impact, our conclusion remains valid. Pollution caused by production process of silicon wafers used in solar panels is significantly higher than the pollution caused by wind power (and orders of magnitude less than pollution from fossil fuels).
[link=http://envimpact.org/node/22]Electricity, from coal[/link] [b]Impact:[/b]885.48
[hr]
[link=http://envimpact.org/node/71]Electricity, from solar panels[/link]
[b]Impact:[/b] 52.38[hr] [link=http://envimpact.org/node/65]Electricity, from wind[/link] [b]Impact:[/b] 8.55
[hr] [link=http://envimpact.org/node/49]Electricity, hydro[/link] [b]Impact:[/b]0.49
[hr]
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Quote from dergon
I won’t forget.
The title of this paper says it succinctly: [link=http://envimpact.org/node/93]
[b]Solar energy: better than fossil fuels, worse than anything else.[/b] [/link]Solar energy is much, much cleaner than coal or natural gas, but still not as good as wind or hydroelectric.
It is true that most of the impact is caused by the resource depletion — solar panels use silver, which is quite scarce material. Hopefully, newer technologies will be able to alleviate this problem.However, even if we discount the resource depletion part of the solar energy impact, our conclusion remains valid. Pollution caused by production process of silicon wafers used in solar panels is significantly higher than the pollution caused by wind power (and orders of magnitude less than pollution from fossil fuels).
[link=http://envimpact.org/node/22]Electricity, from coal[/link] [b]Impact:[/b]885.48
[hr]
[link=http://envimpact.org/node/71]Electricity, from solar panels[/link]
[b]Impact:[/b] 52.38[hr] [link=http://envimpact.org/node/65]Electricity, from wind[/link] [b]Impact:[/b] 8.55
[hr] [link=http://envimpact.org/node/49]Electricity, hydro[/link] [b]Impact:[/b]0.49
[hr]
Ah, hydropower and the TVA, that Roosevelt Socialist program bringing jobs and cheap non-polluting power to rural communities in Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi and Kentucky & other States and making profits for the US Government.
What’s to like?-
Chevy volt redo looks alright. It’s probably a decent car for people who have a 40 or 50 Mike commute. In the new garage here at work they have car chargers, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an electric in front of one.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Chevy volt redo looks alright. It’s probably a decent car for people who have a 40 or 50 Mike commute. In the new garage here at work they have car chargers, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an electric in front of one.
I’m thinking that with VW single-handedly destroying the individual diesel auto market we will see electrics and hybrids start to take a bigger hunk of market share.-
They major league fudged that one. I’m not sure, I think people that want diesel probably still want diesel. They need to get the emissions stuff figured out. Chevy will be coming out with the 2.8 Duramax diesel in the Canyon mid size truck. I suspect that will be popular.
I actually kind of wanted a diesel myself but it’s hard to justify unless you really drive or tow a lot.
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Looks like consumer reports has pulled their rating on Tesla model S. Reliability issues.
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Texas taking the lead.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environment/a-texas-utility-offers-a-nighttime-special-free-electricity.html?smid=fb-share]http://www.nytimes.com/20…ity.html?smid=fb-share[/link]
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Quote from steppenwolf
Texas taking the lead.
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environment/a-texas-utility-offers-a-nighttime-special-free-electricity.html?smid=fb-share]http://www.nytimes.com/20…ity.html?smid=fb-share[/link]
Interesting … free overnight.
At our Canadian property we’ve been on variable pricing for years. My mom sets her dishwasher, laundry etc all to run overnight to save $$.
As has come up n numerous energy threads , the real answer is in battery/storage technology so that the wind energy can be accessed after it’s been generated.
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Quote from DoctorDalai
Tesla needs to sell solar panels as an option. They would probably be 10’x10′.
Don’t forget to take the pollution required to manufacture the solar and other alternative energy acquisition devices into account…
That’s a non-sequitur as solar panels can be manufactured using renewables, like solar panels. Or wind. That is happening more and more each day. We are moving out of the Stone Age of being restricted to only burning hydrocarbons, there are “new” and renewable energy sources being made more available each day.
As for Tesla, as I said, it is not meant at this time to be a Chevy. As production ramps up and batteries become cheaper, that is more a reality than now.
Question, why aren’t you criticizing the Lamborghini? It sells for $500K, hardly a Chevy either & 4x-5x the cost of the Tesla.
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Excess energy production by renewable source. And to think that was supposed to have been impossible, a replacement of fossil fuels to generate power, now surplus power.
I’m sure we will be reading a lot of mea culpas from those who have been opposed to the idea of renewables and/or renewables making a sufficient impact as to generate surplus power & replacing fossil fuels.
Not.-
[link]http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall[/link]
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Quote from steppenwolf
[link=http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall]http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall[/link]
Need that to come down dramatically in price for wide adoption in the home wind/solar market.
And it needs to come down in both price and size for adoption of the commercial wind generation market.
But it [i]is[/i] a big step forward.
Ps- more discussion on that issue here : [link=http://www.auntminnie.com/Forum/tm.aspx?m=454645&high=tesla+energy+market)]http://www.auntminnie.com…h=tesla+energy+market)[/link] -
Quote from steppenwolf
[link=http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall]http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall[/link]
Need that to come down dramatically in price for wide adoption in the home wind/solar market.
And it needs to come down in both price and size for adoption of the commercial wind generation market.
But it [i]is[/i] a big step forward.
Ps- more discussion on that issue here : [link=http://www.auntminnie.com/Forum/tm.aspx?m=454645&high=tesla+energy+market)]http://www.auntminnie.com…h=tesla+energy+market)[/link]-
I’d love to see cheaper & as production ramps up it will be, much as solar panels have and are continuing to come down. But I’m already pretty impressed with the Wall. It’s a lot neater than buying multiple batteries & seems comparable in cost.
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Fraud and nonviability indeed:
[url=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-01/elon-musk-says-model-3-orders-at-180-000-in-24-hours]Elon Musk takes 180,000 pre-orders for the Tesla Model 3 in the first 24 hours[/url]
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Looks a lot nicer than I thought it would. Just have to tweak the interior.
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Probably a lot of people that can’t afford Teslas are now buying cheaper Teslas they still can’t afford. They start at $35k and won’t be available for a year or so.
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Tesla looking strong.
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/04/04/the-car-industry-has-never-witnessed-what-tesla-is-about-to-go-through/]https://www.washingtonpos…s-about-to-go-through/[/link]
Most of the best selling cars in America, such as the Honda Accord or Nissan Altima, generally hit around 300,000 in sales every year.
Tesla saw 276,000 people sign-up to buy its newest all-electric [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/04/01/meet-the-new-model-3-from-tesla/]Model 3[/link] sedan in two days.
That massive number, which far exceeded optimistic forecasts, upends traditional thinking about how to sell cars and is expected to spur the auto industry to shift more dramatically to market electric technology to consumers, analysts said.
Weve never seen anything quite like this in the auto industry, said Jessica Caldwell, a senior analyst at Edmunds.com. It is unprecedented.
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over 300k orders, $14billion in possible sales. I don’t even think they’ll meet the orders.
[link=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-07/tesla-says-model-3-pre-orders-surge-to-325-000-in-first-week]http://www.bloomberg.com/…-325-000-in-first-week[/link]
Also I saw some commentary about how this is making other car companies quite happy as it shows that there might be a market for electric.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Probably a lot of people that can’t afford Teslas are now buying cheaper Teslas they still can’t afford. They start at $35k and won’t be available for a year or so.
Coming: [url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/business/tesla-model-3-elon-musk.html]
Teslas First Mass-Market Car, the Model 3, Hits Production This Week[/url][/h1]-
Quote from dergon
Quote from DICOM_Dan
Probably a lot of people that can’t afford Teslas are now buying cheaper Teslas they still can’t afford. They start at $35k and won’t be available for a year or so.
Coming: [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/business/tesla-model-3-elon-musk.html]
Teslas First Mass-Market Car, the Model 3, Hits Production This Week[/link]Should be interesting to see how they do. I remember consumer reports had a lot of issues with Tesla and their manufacturing isn’t nearly as buttoned down as like a GM, FCUSA, Honda, Toyota.
One thing I’ve wondered if there’s not an opportunity to co-op with some of the big three. This article points out they are “bursting at the seams”. GM has the Lordstown OH plant which is gigantic. You pass it if you drive the turnpike I-80. However, it’s largely idle. Ohio is trying to get in on the driverless car tech also. Perfect place to build some Teslas. Access to multi-modal transportation also.-
Volvo just said that 2019 all their cars will have electric motors. I’m guessing that would mean at a minimum they’ll have all hybrid.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Volvo just said that 2019 all their cars will have electric motors. I’m guessing that would mean at a minimum they’ll have all hybrid.
Yes. They’re not going “all all electric” but “all at-least part electric”
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might be a good international stock pick. I believe it’s Geely from China that owns Volvo auto now. Volvo is making some nice looking auto-mobiles and China’s ripe for electric cars.
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The anti-science and pro-fossil fuel Republicans said it would never happen without bankrupting the US and the world.
How wrong they were. How wrong they are.
[link=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/08/climate/electric-cars-batteries.html]https://www.nytimes.com/2…ic-cars-batteries.html[/link]
As the worlds automakers place larger bets on [link=http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/e/electric_vehicles/index.html?&inline=nyt-classifier]electric vehicle[/link]technology, many industry analysts are debating a key question: How quickly can plug-in cars become mainstream?
The conventional view holds that electric cars will remain a niche product for many years, plagued by high sticker prices and heavily dependent on government subsidies.
But a growing number of analysts now argue that this pessimism is becoming outdated. A [link=https://about.bnef.com/electric-vehicle-outlook/]new report[/link] from Bloomberg New Energy Finance, a research group, suggests that the price of plug-in cars is falling much faster than expected, spurred by cheaper batteries and aggressive policies promoting zero-emission vehicles in China and Europe.
Between 2025 and 2030, the group predicts, plug-in vehicles will become cost competitive with traditional petroleum-powered cars, even without subsidies, and even before taking fuel savings into account. Once that happens, mass adoption should quickly follow.
Our forecast doesnt hinge on countries adopting stringent new fuel standards or climate policies, said Colin McKerracher, the head of advanced transport analysis at Bloomberg New Energy Finance. Its an economic analysis, looking at what happens when the upfront cost of electric vehicles reaches parity. Thats when the real shift occurs.
If that prediction pans out, it would have enormous consequences for the auto industry, [link=http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/energy-environment/oil-petroleum-and-gasoline/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier]oil[/link] markets and the worlds efforts to slow [link=http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/globalwarming/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier]global warming[/link].
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2025 – 2030 maybe. Batteries need to improve and we’d need some kind of charging infrastructure so people/truckers could go long distance. Price needs to come down. Before any of that we’re probably going to see more hybrids, and turbo motors. When I read about Volvo they’re shooting for a 500 mile range in the 2019 electric plan.
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Time flies. Not long ago it was said that alternative energy could never make any significant impact on energy generation compared to fossil fuels without bankrupting the country & world economy, yet here we are with reduced fossil fuel use due to solar and wind alone, personal and on farms. Same was true for electric cars, the “never happen” category and also without destroying economies. Yet the Tesla has proven it can be driven long range & it is coming out with a model that is more “middle class” in price. And batteries are making more and more inroads into both cars and off-grid energy systems in efficiency and cost.
It’ll be sooner than you think.
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[url=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-05/mercedes-to-challenge-bmw-tesla-with-four-car-electric-lineup]Mercedes to unveil a fleet of electric vehicles[/url]
Mercedes-Benz is planning its own distinct line of electric vehicles, challenging BMW and Tesla Motors Inc. in a bet that alternative-fuel cars have the potential to become profitable.
Mercedes will add two electric sport utility vehicles and two sedans, according to two people familiar with the plan, who asked not to be named because the details havent been disclosed. Mercedes will create a new sub-brand for the cars, though a name hasnt been chosen yet, one of the people said. Chief Executive Officer Dieter Zetsche said in June that the company planned to unveil an electric car at the Paris motor show in September.
Fraud and non-viability indeed.-
Makes sense. They’ll need something competitive in the Tesla price range. Really a lot of car tech comes out of Daimler.
Bloomberg interesting pointed out Elon said his factory was hell, they don’t meet orders, quality is suspect, they’re he burning cash, and yet the stock barely budged down.
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Like Amazon.
Or Apple making revenue like it’s going out of style yet their price is stagnant.
There is nothing rational about the market except in value.-
Apple and Amazon make money, Tesla does not. Tesla value is more on feelings and hope, not fundamentals.
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[url=http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/23/teslas-new-model-s-sedan-aims-to-prove-that-electric-cars-can-be-hot-rods.html]Tesla gives Model S up-powered battery; now has 315 mile range[/url]
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2.5 Second 0-60 with newly introduced battery technology . Makes it the fastest production car in the world.
[link=https://www.tesla.com/blog/new-tesla-model-s-now-quickest-production-car-world]https://www.tesla.com/blo…t-production-car-world[/link]
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What defines fastest in terms of production? It is fast in even regular form. I believe that a Porsche 918 ran 0-60 in something like 2.2. I’ve seen a lot of Tesla vs Car X videos on youtube. Usually the Tesla ends up getting smoked once you get to tripledigit speed.
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This is just what we need, more cars that can do 0 to 60 in 2.5 sec along with the texters and inattentive pseudo-drivers that sit in the driver’s seat. What could go wrong? Physics laws still apply.
There are so many Teslas where I live. Most of the drivers are fine but I’m now trained to watch out for the Tesla in my rear view mirror and get ready to get out of their way.-
Isn’t the Porsche 918 a limited edition build? I think that would take it out of the “production” car category. (Although I suppose that depends on the definition of “production”)
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And as for getting “smoked” at triple-digit speeds, I’m not aware of any autobahns here in America so it’s essentially moot unless drivers are living a Fast and Furious fantasy life. If I’m driving 120+ MPH, I’m not worried about being smoked, I’m worried about cops.
Unless the other driver smoking me was John Howard. But then I’d see him coming behind the draft of another unusual car.
[link=http://www.canosoarus.com/08LSRbicycle/LSR%20Bike01.htm]http://www.canosoarus.com…cycle/LSR%20Bike01.htm[/link]
And none of the above are “production” anythings.
Frankly I don’t see it as impossible to design an electric vehicle that could “smoke” a gasoline powered car if that is the goal. It just requires enough battery juice and perhaps different motors. If a pedal bike can reach 150 MPH…
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Quote from dergon
Isn’t the Porsche 918 a limited edition build? I think that would take it out of the “production” car category. (Although I suppose that depends on the definition of “production”)
I would call it cars that people can actually buy. Most exotic cars are limited in production. I think it would be a good guess but all Porsche model combined sales probably don’t come close to Toyota Camry sales. Out of curiosity I looked at Autotrader. There’s 15 listings for 918’s now, all you need a $1.7 million you don’t mind spending. There’s a nice lime green one for sale.
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I don’t think there’s a settled standard on direct current charging either. So a Volt I don’t believe can charge on a Tesla charging station. Part of the infrastructure issue.
Just read the first model 3 came off the line today. Went to Elon as a Bday gift from a board member.-
“I don’t think there’s a settled standard on direct current charging either. So a Volt I don’t believe can charge on a Tesla charging station. Part of the infrastructure issue. ”
Sounds just like PACS…..-
And yet most everyone has a PACS these days.
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Most of my racks run off 6 NEMA L6-30 plugs/receptacles. That’s about as to the electrical standards as you get.
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Apparently the government of China is announcing plans to stop selling hydrocarbon based cars in the country.
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Tesla made hurricane news for pushing a software update to Floridians. I didn’t know this because I thought they were actually selling a cheaper model of their car with a smaller battery. It seems kind of stupid to artificially limit the battery with software. Just sell regular model at the lower price point.
[link=http://jalopnik.com/teslas-hurricane-irma-update-taps-into-our-deepest-fear-1803081731]http://jalopnik.com/tesla…eepest-fear-1803081731[/link]
“Tesla briefly sold a 60 and 60D trim level of its Model S and Model X vehicles. These models had 75 kWh battery packs installed, but were software limited to have less range to artificially create a more affordable entry-level tier for buyers. Buyers still had the option to upgrade to the full capacity for a charge if they changed their minds, and Tesla would unlock the capability via an over-the-air software update.”-
[url=https://www.themotorreport.com.au/car-article/motor-news/porsche-911-will-be-electric-116418.html]Porsche 911 to be electric[/url]
Porsche CEO, Oliver Blume, told [link=https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/porsche-ceo-oliver-blume-brands-electrified-future]A[i]utocar[/i][/link] the 911 would be electrified within the decade. The first electrified 911s will be available as plug-in EVs (PHEVs) before later becoming fully electric.
It follows conflicting comments made last year from head of 911 development, August Achleitner, who said the 911 hybrid project was dead. Achleitner said the biggest challenge stunting EV development was the weight of the batteries which had too negative an effect on Porsche’s signature handling. But the technology has evolved quickly and China, Porsches strongest individual market, recently announced it will ban fossil-fuelled cars in the future.
With the 911, for the next 10 to 15 years, we will still have a combustion engine. We have combustion engines, then plug-ins as intermediaries, then full EV later on. The future concept of 911 will have plug-in built in, but its not decided yet if we offer it: 911 is a core business and we need it to be a pure sports car. When customers want it to be electric, we can be ready, Blume said.
A Porsche spokesperson added that the first PHEV would be introduced around three years into the next-generation 911 and that advancements in battery technology have produced a lighter battery with an increased capacity of around 70km range, though driveline options remain open at this stage.
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UPS orders 125 trucks at $20k deposit. I’m still kind of surprised it looks like they have all these orders. Over 1200 estimated on pre-order. Tesla doesn’t deliver. Look at model 3s. Tons of orders, crappy production numbers.
[link=http://fortune.com/2017/12/19/ups-orders-125-tesla-semis/]http://fortune.com/2017/1…rders-125-tesla-semis/[/link] -
[i]Bloomberg:[/i] [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-14/ford-doubling-electric-vehicle-spending-to-11-billion-by-2022]Ford goes all-in on electric cars[/link]
The carmaker will shell out $11 billion bringing 40 electrified vehicles to market by 2022, Jim Farley, president of global markets, said during a presentation at the Detroit auto show. Thats up from the $4.5 billion that Ford [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-10/ford-to-invest-4-5-billion-in-electric-plug-in-hybrid-vehicles]said[/link] in late 2015 it would invest through the end of the decade.
This $11 billion youre seeing, that means were all in now, Executive Chairman Bill Ford told reporters in Detroit. The only question is will the customers be there with us and we think they will.
With battery costs [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-05/latest-bull-case-for-electric-cars-the-cheapest-batteries-ever]declining rapidly [/link]and regulators around the globe cracking down on the internal combustion engine, automakers have been rushing to step up their game with regards to all-electric models. While the segment comprises less that 1 percent of annual deliveries in the U.S., global demand is expected to rise as governments phase out gasoline and diesel engines and batteries reach price parity with traditional powertrains.-
that’d be great if they could make a cheap electric that has a lot of range.
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This is a good video about the model X. Like the second half where Clarkson drives around with the 6 lawyers because Tesla sued them in the past. 156 thousand British pounds for a model x.
[link=https://jalopnik.com/jeremy-clarkson-reviewed-the-tesla-model-x-with-a-team-1822937376]https://jalopnik.com/jere…with-a-team-1822937376[/link]
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[url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-13/vw-secures-25-billion-battery-supplies-in-electric-car-surge]VW makes $25 billion battery buy for EVs, will have 16 plants manufacturing by 2025[/url]
The worlds largest carmaker will equip 16 factories to produce electric vehicles by the end of 2022, compared with three currently, Volkswagen said Tuesday in Berlin. The German manufacturers plans to build as many as 3 million of the cars a year by 2025 is backstopped by deals with suppliers including [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/006400:KS]Samsung SDI Co.[/link], [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/051910:KS]LG Chem Ltd.[/link] and [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/1447922D:CH]Contemporary Amperex Technology Ltd.[/link] for batteries in Europe and China.
With the powerpack deliveries secured for its two biggest markets, a deal for North America will follow shortly, Volkswagen said. In total, the Wolfsburg-based automaker has said it plans to purchase about [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-11/vw-ceo-vows-to-offer-electric-version-of-all-300-models-by-2030]50 billion euros[/link] in batteries as part of its electric-car push, which includes three new models in 2018 with dozens more following.
Volkswagens battery plans compare to Teslas $17.5 billion worth of purchase obligations as of last year, including $15.4 billion in deals through 2022, primarily related to buying lithium-ion cells from Panasonic, according to a recent filing. Volkswagen called its battery tender one of the biggest purchasing initiatives in the auto industry.[/QUOTE]
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interesting too that the GOP budget proposal still left carve outs for electrics, alternative fuel, and doing home upgrades like charging stations.
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Heard some of the Bloomberg P&L podcast. It would appear the rating agencies are taking Elon to the woodshed. Moodies I think think made them Caa1 which is supposed to be like a step above junk. They underproduce cars and can’t meet the demand like on the model 3.
Not good at manufacturing
+suspect quality
+can’t meet demand
+spend more than they make
+going to be expensive to borrow
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= they’d be out of business if it was any other company-
I still think we’re going to see big things in electric cars and autonomous driving. However, I do wonder what the future of Tesla is. They burn money and can’t meet production. Elon seems like he might be a bad CEO. Dude got kneecapped 5% share value acting like a jerk on his quarterly earnings call. It’s a matter of time before the big names like GM etc… Make these cars as good or better than Tesla. Edit: I heard some of his call played on NPR and he told people he doesn’t care about traders and don’t invest. Seems like he should have a fiduciary duty to do good business and mind the share price as the CEO.
Soon, Musk turned his ire toward the financial analysts who were asking the questions. When Bernstein analyst Toni Sacconaghi attempted to ask about capital-expenditure spending and the money needed, Musk cut him off by yelling Next! When RBC Capital Markets analyst Joseph Spak then asked how many people with Model 3 reservations were actually taking delivery of their cars, Musk declined to answer any more boring, dry questions.
Youre killing me, he said.
[link=https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-acted-like-a-jerk-and-tesla-stock-paid-the-price-2018-05-02]https://www.marketwatch.c…d-the-price-2018-05-02[/link]
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[url=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-22/electric-cars-may-be-cheaper-than-gas-guzzlers-in-seven-years]Bloomberg New Energy Finance:[/url] [b]EVs could see cost partiy with gas autos by 2024[/b]
Electric cars may be cheaper than their petroleum counterparts by 2025 if the cost of lithium-ion batteries continues to fall.
Some models will cost the same as combustion engines as soon as 2024 and become cheaper the following year, according to a report by [link=https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/3470094Z:LN]Bloomberg New Energy Finance[/link]. For that to happen, battery pack prices need to fall even as demand for the metals that go into the units continues to rise, the London-based researcher said on Thursday.
The expected increase in mass manufacturing of lithium-ion storage should help drive battery prices to as low as $70 a kilowatt hour by 2030, BNEF said. Battery packs averaged about $208 a kilowatt hour in 2017, squeezing profit margins and representing some two fifths of the total costs of electric vehicle.
[/QUOTE]
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Just bought a PHEV SUV – fantastic vehicle. I rarely buy gas anymore. The downside is that I have to pay to wash my vehicle as previously I always accumulated enough points with a V8 SUV for monthly washes!
It will pay for itself in gas savings over 6 years.
I get approving looks from the granola bunch too! Something I am not accustomed too 😉-
Good for you!
Sounds like an awesome ride!
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I look at this thread so many years on and I *almost* wish RVU was still around.
(I say almost b/c he went pretty nutso there at there at the end)
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Quote from dergon
I look at this thread so many years on and I *almost* wish RVU was still around.
(I say almost b/c he went pretty nutso there at there at the end)
LOL – RVU was a “wrong ‘un” who kind of lost it. A few kilojoules short of a full charge.-
how does the model S handle in rain and snow? Also I know its fast 0-60 but would you classify it as a sports/performance car?
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I think Teslas can be AWD as they can come with front and rear motors. I actually think tires are th most important thing in snow.
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“how does the model S handle in rain and snow? Also I know its fast 0-60 but would you classify it as a sports/performance car?”
f*%kin’ awesome. i’m not sure how to classify it but it’s fun to drive in any weather. my first tesla was a rear wheel drive. i traded in an all wheel drive volvo and was sorry to be giving up all wheel drive. it was ok in the snow but i traded in that S for an all wheel drive in 2015. it was like night and day. i also added snow tires that year and it’s the best car i’ve ever driven in the snow. It’s heavy and has a very low center of gravity so it’s like driving a tank as i pass all the folks stuck on the side of the road.
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