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  • The daily grind

    Posted by georgiajens on January 13, 2011 at 9:46 pm

    I’ve only been out for 5 years, but the day to day grind of radiology is starting to get to me. Sitting at your desk, reading, reading, reading. Then up for a procedure, then more reading until you go home. The next day the same. The weekends are always too short, the weekdays are always too long. There used to be a time when I genuinely enjoyed radiology. Maybe that was in training or when I was in academics when I could take my time to learn. In PP, there’s a crunch to produce more volume, to not make mistakes else you’ll upset a referring doc, to not get sued. How long can I put up with this? For those of you who have been doing this a lot longer, how have you put up with this for so long? I know it doesn’t get better, only worse. What will I think about my life after having spent 30 years doing this?

    Unknown Member replied 2 years, 2 months ago 69 Members · 517 Replies
  • 517 Replies
  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    January 13, 2011 at 10:37 pm

    You grind by choice. It is called golden handcuffs. If you live below your means, then you might be able to escape the handcuffs. Otherwise, you might grinding when you are 65.

    The grind has gotten worse because of decreasing reimbursements. It will continue to get worse – for those who want to make high incomes. Then again, payments may end up being mostly bundled in which case you don’t have to grind and can work at a reasonable pace for substantially less money. Actually you can already do this in academics and the VA.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      January 13, 2011 at 11:21 pm

      The daily grind for us is far preferable to the daily grind for most other workers. 
       
      Escaping the grind periodically with a vaction/meeting is always something that helps recharge my batteries.  Doing locums is still a grind but the change is a plus for me.
       
      Implemeting new techniques is also a plus.   Get involved with equipment selection.   For me, transitioning from daily angio to CTA and MRA has really improved my daily existence.
       
      Looking back in 5 more years you will probaly find that your day to day grind is gradually evolving and you wont be doing the same things.
       
      Here comes the “when I was your age BS”— 
       
      when I started private practice in my small hospital 20 years ago, there was no pacs, single slice nonspiral CT, XEROMAMMOGRAPHY, no MR, lots of fluoro,
      angio was done daily in our fluoro room with a puck film changer, nucs and ultrasound.   Plus no telerad so we drove to the hospital to review CT or ultrasound on call which was usually just once or twice a night.
       
      So we have transitioned by adding telerad (preinternet PC to PC dialup), film screen mammo, spiral single slice CT, mobile MRI (.5 T), next gen telerad, cath lab/digital angio,
      4, 16, 64 slice CTs, mult mobile MRI upgrades prior to going to fixed 1.5 T MR, then MRI replacement.  Angio given up completely in favor of CTA/MRA.   Then web based PACS, digital mammo, digital fluoro, CR, mobile PET/CT.  In the meantime have endured two or three dept renovations and one year ago new hospital. 
       
      Learning most of the MRI as I went ( there were only about 4 sequences when I started), living through the amazing change in CT (our first CT took 6 MINUTES of scan time to do a chest- 7 mm slices no recons), PET, digital mammo.
       
      The bottom line is that your grind will be a lot different in the next 20 years, the differences will likely be just as dramatic as my experience; enjoy navigating through the changes. 

      • Unknown Member

        Deleted User
        January 14, 2011 at 3:06 pm

        Grind is the appropriate word – PP is fairly brutal.
         
        But, we do play an increasingly important role in medicine these days, which is cool.

  • DanielQuilli

    Member
    January 14, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    Why not go back to academics if youre already feeling burnt out? What part of the country are you in? An academic job in flyover country would probably pay closer to a PP salary on the east or west coast.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      January 14, 2011 at 4:45 pm

      I have a different take from most – maybe just happens I am in the right PP – but I don’t think so.

      Someone once told me that in order to avoid burnout – you need to change your job every 7 years.

      This is not a good way to succeed in Radiology, of course. But you can modify the idea. Don’t quit your job, but change it….As KCRAD said – start new things in your practice. Find something that is new and upcoming and go for it. Preferably choose something you can fail miserably at – this will focus your attention and the victory will be all the sweeter. I have done this throughout my career and it has been invigorating.

      This advice, by the way, is validated by psychologists who study happiness. They find that people who are happiest are not the ones with the least stress, but ones who have good stress (otherwise known as “eustress”). That is they are putting themselves in stressful situations, but the difference is when they complete the stressful situation, they have a sense of accomplishment.

      Another thread in the psychological literature happiness is a product of being in stimulating, novel situations. In other words, change makes people happy, even though many avoid change, because it causes stress.

      I think that what you are experiencing is typical. You spent a lot of time in training, learning new things all the time. Feeling accomplished as you showed you could do each. (“Hey, Look at me. I just did a biopsy!!!”). Then it gets so easy you can do it in your sleep. You are bored. Then you become unhappy, but you aren’t sure why. You think it is the SOB in the next cubicle, but really it is you.

      Bosniak once said that he was really bored with GU radiology because he had seen everything that could happen to a kidney 10 times.

      • Medical Marijuana?

        Member
        January 14, 2011 at 6:09 pm

        The grind plus Bad stress for the last 11 years.  It seems only to be getting worse.  The Bad Stress is being put out of my comfort zone because I am a captive player in this play.

        • william.wang_997

          Member
          January 14, 2011 at 10:23 pm

          The stress is there in academics also. I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side. More and more studies to read, dependence on others for work ( making for very unpredictable day to day work), pressure to publish and grants. May be all this needs to be discussed with members of your group : How to make the reading more interesting and fun in a group…..just like it was for you a few years ago ? All jobs do become the same after a few years……

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            January 15, 2011 at 4:58 am

            Academics is worse than PP. You have to deal with politics, research, teach etc. Now the volume is the same as PP 5 years ago. No easy way out in rads. Other physicians poke fun at u for “hardly working” but in reality the work is harder than most surgeons work. Mental work is grueling and fries your brain. Radiology is the anonymous person with no glory, high liability and monotonous workflow. plus no one knows you are a doctor. Even if they know, you have very low respect and lay people think you must not have been smart enough to be a real doctor.

            • Unknown Member

              Deleted User
              January 15, 2011 at 6:11 am

              [i] Radiology is the anonymous person with no glory, high liability and monotonous workflow. plus no one knows you are a doctor. Even if they know, you have very low respect and lay people think you must not have been smart enough to be a real doctor.[/i]

              ..glory? Not a lot of glory in seeing 40 patients a day in primary care.
              Monotonous? I almost always have a least one very interesting case per day, after 24 years of practice.

              Respect? Very rarely get dissed in private practice.
              People think I fix radios or take xrays for a living? Never bothered me.
              Liability? Can’t argue there.

              • jquinones8812_854

                Member
                January 15, 2011 at 7:57 am

                Yeah, my wife is a clinician, and trust me…it is no better there.

                I feel it weighing on me. I sometimes wonder how long I can go on, at the same pace and rate, no matter how much I change up my practice.

                • Unknown Member

                  Deleted User
                  January 15, 2011 at 8:15 am

                  I’m relatively new to PP and after a rough start with long hours, things are getting much better. It is clear to me, though, that I don’t enjoy my work so much that I’d rather do radiology than, say, sit in Borders all day and read a novel while drinking poorly-made espresso.

                  If I and my wife can keep our expenses down and stay satisfied with a modest income, I would consider going to part-time once I pay off the mortgage.

  • waltermfernandesyahoo.com.br

    Member
    January 15, 2011 at 9:40 am

    ORIGINAL: Dr.Sardonicus

    I have a different take from most – maybe just happens I am in the right PP – but I don’t think so.

    Someone once told me that in order to avoid burnout – you need to change your job every 7 years.

    This is not a good way to succeed in Radiology, of course. But you can modify the idea. Don’t quit your job, but change it….As KCRAD said – start new things in your practice. Find something that is new and upcoming and go for it. Preferably choose something you can fail miserably at – this will focus your attention and the victory will be all the sweeter. I have done this throughout my career and it has been invigorating.

    This advice, by the way, is validated by psychologists who study happiness. They find that people who are happiest are not the ones with the least stress, but ones who have good stress (otherwise known as “eustress”). That is they are putting themselves in stressful situations, but the difference is when they complete the stressful situation, they have a sense of accomplishment.

    Another thread in the psychological literature happiness is a product of being in stimulating, novel situations. In other words, change makes people happy, even though many avoid change, because it causes stress.

    I think that what you are experiencing is typical. You spent a lot of time in training, learning new things all the time. Feeling accomplished as you showed you could do each. (“Hey, Look at me. I just did a biopsy!!!”). Then it gets so easy you can do it in your sleep. You are bored. Then you become unhappy, but you aren’t sure why. You think it is the SOB in the next cubicle, but really it is you.

    Bosniak once said that he was really bored with GU radiology because he had seen everything that could happen to a kidney 10 times.

     
    Very cool Dr S. Definitely matches my experience, but defines it in a way that I have not considered.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      January 15, 2011 at 10:18 am

      Medicine in general is getting worse every year. Less money, more stress, more work, high expectations of 24/7 coverage.

      I am young and early in my career but plan on putting away money aggressively from now on, as who knows when it might all be too much.

      Sometimes I feel like I “sold out” to become a doctor/rad because it was a safe and easy way to use my god-gifted smarts to make a stable nice living – I basically didn’t persue my true passions but instead took the safe route in life — this is a true drag at times.

      • doubletrouble

        Member
        January 15, 2011 at 10:37 am

        At the risk of quoting “[i]The Princess Bride[/i]”  one time too many:

        “Life is pain higness.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.”

        Still, everybody has to be somewhere.  Whereever you are, that’s where you find yourself.

        • cchandc

          Member
          January 15, 2011 at 11:06 am

          Make some “regular joe” friends… i’m talking about plumbers, construction workers, gas station employees, factory workers… meijer/walmart/army… heck even some people in business. Most people hate/dislike their job… and most people have it much worse than we do. Sure there are a lot of people that have sweet gigs, but when I get that feeling of hating work, i try and force myself to think of these people and their lives… or i think of how it was when i worked at burger king in high school (with people ages ranging from 15 – 55 yo). When compared to these things, radiology is a sweet gig.

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            January 15, 2011 at 11:14 am

            Nice try. Those simpletons DID NOT give 13+ years of the best years of their lives slaving night and day studying after high school. Most of those JOES you talk about dont even have high school degrees. Plus their work is easy, no liability, little stress, and if all else fails can collect over 40k/year for unemployment and sit at Borders all day and sip half decent coffee all day. They dont even have to pay for food since food stamps are free. Before you make such an idiotic comment consider the fact that common joes did not make the same sacrifices nor will continue to do so because of the golden handcuffs. Great ignorant post btw. bravo!

            ORIGINAL: hopefulradsfuture

            Make some regular joe friends… i’m talking about plumbers, construction workers, gas station employees, factory workers… meijer/walmart/army… heck even some people in business. Most people hate their job… and most people have it much worse than we do. Sure there are a lot of people that have sweet gigs, but if i take an honest assessment of the jobs of people in my family/friends/aquaintences, radiology is a sweet gig.

            • cchandc

              Member
              January 15, 2011 at 11:41 am

              Your exactly the person my post is targeting, but you lack the insight to fully understand it. I imagine you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and also felt taken advantage of when your parents failed to give you the BMW on your 16th bday, rather than the used lexus. If you had ever had one of these other types of jobs in your lifefor any significant time and actually been on your own, you would understand this… but you “slaved” away going to college/med school/residency.

              Give me a break. I would hands down prefer studying/reading or sitting in a posh, temperature controlled reading room using my intelligence to describe disease than working my hands to the bone in 20 degree or 90 degree weather as a plumber or construction worker…. or work a cash register or on an assembly line doing the same thing for 40-60 hours a week? for $10-20/hr without the job security people in medicine? Do you really think most people want to be on welfare/food stamps… live in a trailer? Can you comprehend how stressful it is have a 3 or 4 kids and not know for sure if you will be able to support them if you lose your job? Do you think the lower and middle class live stress free? Come on, really? It doesn’t matter if their stress is due to bad life decisions, they still have it.

              Would you really rather work at borders for $6/hr and live with your parents at 30 years of age (keep in mind that most of these people’s parents don’t have the $500k house in the suburbs that you are probably well accustomed to)??? I went to college because I had many of the regular jobs listed above and I would rather have went to college & studied. But then again, I did not feel like I was wasting my life or making any huge sacrifices… Did you really think you were studying and taking exams only to have everything in life handed to you for free? While I was going to school, most of my friends/family members were working their asses off at a 40 hr/week $40k/year jobs that were boring, physically demanding, and/or stressful while I was sleeping in, sitting on my ass and studying during the day, and going out with my other college/med school friends whenever I felt like it. My wife is in business and she took a 10% paycut over the last year and 80% of people she worked with were let go. Every day she felt as though she could lose her job while at the same time she was working harder because she had to do the work her former coworkers had been doing. While in residency, I have no fear of losing my job, i get a small raise every year, and I can moonlight and get paid twice the hourly wage my parents ever made. The job market may not be that great right now, but I am not so scared that I will not be able to find a job when residency that pays at least 3x what my wife’s job pays for work that is no more stressful than her job. I feel bad for you if really feel you “wasted” your life in school/residency.

              “You got your head so far up your ass about that damn football team, you don’t get the fact that you just got a year of top quality education! Waste? Quit wasting my time! “

              • ifra.arif999_474

                Member
                January 15, 2011 at 1:19 pm

                Farve/Chopra/Etc: Your misanthropic schtick is tiresome and boring. You have long since ceased being entertaining in any sense. Can you not come up with a more original and witty persona?

                • Unknown Member

                  Deleted User
                  January 15, 2011 at 2:14 pm

                  I am sorry you come from a poor family thus had to work during high school. And yes most of the people that you are referring to would rather stay at home and collect unemployment checks, “disability checks”, and/or food stamps. The government system rewards people with low income and people like us pay the free money. As for kids…most of these people have more tax breaks, government money with more kids. Why do you think there are so many fatherless kids that secretly live in the same household to collect money from the government. Many of these “disadvantaged” people are sucking up the money from people that actually work for their money. It is a philosophical issue in which you need to do more due diligence bc u come across as an ignorant person growing up from the poor side of town. The main argument most of these people use is why should i get a job when babysitting money sucks up my paycheck. I would rather stay home and watch my own kids and collect free money from the government while i stay home and watch tv all day.

                  • cchandc

                    Member
                    January 15, 2011 at 11:07 pm

                    bah, didnt realize this was chopra :/

                    • waltermfernandesyahoo.com.br

                      Member
                      January 16, 2011 at 9:58 am

                      So because we went 13 years + of education and training we should not be subjected to the same response to the daily grind that others have? What a bunch of elitist BS. Somehow education and a professional degree is an innoculation against the human experience?
                       
                      And selling out. Dude, make peice with your own demons, I haven’t sold out and don’t plan on it. If you have then you get the luxury are sleeping and living with your own sense of compromised pride, enjoy.
                       
                      Made a mistake going into rads? Not sure where you are drawing your stats from. I have worked with 50-70 radiologists in my career and I can honestly say that perhaps 5-10 of them were bitter about their decision and had regrets. Everyone else, just like our average Joe friends, had good days and bad days. The deal is that our bad days typically have a car thats paid for to drive home in, a house to receive us that is also current on mortgage payments and some pretty nice vacations. (I happen to be very grateful for my job in radiology and fully, 100% with no reservations would do it again)
                       
                      It is called the human experience. As Dr S and others have suggested there are ways to combat the down times if one chooses. But no matter how much you make you will always be subjected to the human experience. Believe me I worked in the music industry for about 3-4 years prior to med school, and spent long stretches of time with folks that are way, way richer than any of us will ever be and hugely famous……. and guess what, these guys got sick and tired of going on stage every night, going to press meetings, and rehearsing.
                       
                      So yeah, it does happen on every level. And guess what it is good to talk to my friends who are carpenters and plumbers or in the military and get some perspective. I see that they get the grind like I do.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 12:00 pm

                      On the surface Tuff Gong, everything you say is accurate. No one would argue with the good parts of being a radiologists. I am thankful to be in this profession, and yes I have the paid off luxury car and mansion in the gated community etc – all made possible by rads.

                      However, once you have the creature comforts you have desired, you start to become enlightened to the fact that they do not really bring much happiness or contentment. It is great to have financial freedom, but in reality there must be a higher meaning to your career and/or life to remain satisfied. You begin to question what motivates you in life and what you want out of your profession.

                      When I am sitting in front of a computer on a Sunday really garbage cases out of the ER over and over…. it is not very satisfying, even if I do it from the comfort of my mansion.

                      We, as physicians, are an intellectual group, and frankly grubbing for money and material possessions is not really what drives me – it is using my brain, leaning new things, exploring new avenues of thought etc. I feel gifted to have been given a strong intellect and curiosity about the world, and would like spend my time using it.  Sadly, radiology in private practice is often devoid of this need. 

                      I doubt hanging out with a plumber would really change these issues.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 1:21 pm

                      If you are good at medicine, almost everything should be routine. As a patient you would hope that the doctor finds doing a procedure on you to be boring because he has done it so often.

                      Clinical medicine isn’t really the field for intellectual stimulation, nor should it be in most cases.

                      To complain about the lack of intellectual stimulation in PP is silly. Let’s face it, almost no one entered the PP of radiology for intellectual stimulation and to expect to find it in an field where you are paid for producing as much volume as possible isn’t realistic.

                      Medicine cannot be compared to blue collar jobs at all. But it can be compared to other jobs like law and business which other high-achievers might pursue. It beats law hands down. And it is far safer than business. Medicine is the perfect example of the hoop jumpers careers. If you can jump through all the obvious hoops, it is a super safe job with an average income better than both law and business, but it does not offer the outsize rewards to the superstars like business and to a lesser extent law do. In general there is an inverse relationship between safety and the highest degree of success you can achieve, medicine offers high safety at the expense of limiting success at the highest levels, while business offers little safety but very high success at the highest levels.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 1:35 pm

                      One of the best and honest posts ever on Auntminnie. Agree 100%. Many current attendings, residents, and current med students matching into rads will come to this same conclusion. People argue that they LOVE rads (mostly 4th year med students, interns, and 1st year rads residents). When they hit their first job they will realize a career in radiology with staring at thousands of mammograms, millions of portable chests will NEVER fill the internal fulfillment of a fulfilling career. Lets be real, even if you get one interesting case a day, it is boring and monotonus. Lastly, the idiot that laid down and said use ones intellect in rads. You are so clueless. Once you finish your training, it is pattern recognition then spitting out differentials. Acruing a mental image library is all that is required. RADIOLOGY DOES NOT REQUIRE GREAT INTELLECT. It is visual observation thats it.

                      ORIGINAL: macrophallus

                      On the surface Tuff Gong, everything you say is accurate. No one would argue with the good parts of being a radiologists. I am thankful to be in this profession, and yes I have the paid off luxury car and mansion in the gated community etc – all made possible by rads.

                      However, once you have the creature comforts you have desired, you start to become enlightened to the fact that they do not really bring much happiness or contentment. It is great to have financial freedom, but in reality there must be a higher meaning to your career and/or life to remain satisfied. You begin to question what motivates you in life and what you want out of your profession.

                      When I am sitting in front of a computer on a Sunday really garbage cases out of the ER over and over…. it is not very satisfying, even if I do it from the comfort of my mansion.

                      We, as physicians, are an intellectual group, and frankly grubbing for money and material possessions is not really what drives me – it is using my brain, leaning new things, exploring new avenues of thought etc. I feel gifted to have been given a strong intellect and curiosity about the world, and would like spend my time using it.  Sadly, radiology in private practice is often devoid of this need. 

                      I doubt hanging out with a plumber would really change these issues.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 2:28 pm

                      The above post seems Prozac deficient.
                      Nevertheless, I find radiology quite challenging. Maybe I am of below average physician intelligence? No, I know what my Stanford Binet IQ is.
                      Radiology has been a fulfilling career. It is fun. Parts have certainly been painful, but I know the impact on patients has been substantial, and thank God, the vast majority of the time that impact has been positive. (Interestingly, the most rewarding interactions have been with mammogram patients. Personal letters from patients and a casual “I know you, you saved my life.” )

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 3:25 pm

                      So – Farve/Chopra

                      While your posts are tedious with a droning message of “the world is awful and we are doomed to toil until we die” I must admit I am curious.

                      If you feel this way, are you still doing radiology? Did you ever?

                      I mean, your view is so bleak it seems that you probably quit some time ago. If not, you should be on suicide watch.

                      Or maybe you feel trapped and are very angry about it.

                      What is the point of these relentlessly negative posts? Are you simply a troll? Seems the most likely explanation. I can’t imagine actually spending time writing these things trying to get radiologists to quit. As they are so negative, why in the world woul dyou spend your time writing them?

                      I am guessing you are just enjoying watching people scurry to respond to them.

                      So, what’s the story?

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 7:09 pm

                      ORIGINAL: Dr.Sardonicus

                      So – Farve/Chopra

                      While your posts are tedious with a droning message of “the world is awful and we are doomed to toil until we die” I must admit I am curious.

                      If you feel this way, are you still doing radiology? Did you ever?

                      I mean, your view is so bleak it seems that you probably quit some time ago. If not, you should be on suicide watch.

                      Or maybe you feel trapped and are very angry about it.

                      What is the point of these relentlessly negative posts? Are you simply a troll? Seems the most likely explanation. I can’t imagine actually spending time writing these things trying to get radiologists to quit. As they are so negative, why in the world woul dyou spend your time writing them?

                      I am guessing you are just enjoying watching people scurry to respond to them.

                      So, what’s the story?

                       
                      I think he is trying to discourage med students browsing the forum to stay away from radiology.  Given the current job climate, that might not be a bad idea.  Lots of med students and interns spend their electives sitting behind radiology attendings and residents, and see residents get false job advertisements for lots of $$$$$, and get the wrong impression of what radiology is about.

                    • srinella

                      Member
                      January 16, 2011 at 8:16 pm

                      when i was in med school…all the pundits were saying “there are no jobs in radiology” and “dont go into it”

                      it was likely true at the time. problem is…when you are talking about a career that can go 30 plus years, making a decision soley based on the environment during that brief moment in time, would be a HUGE MISTAKE.

                      in fact, I didn’t listen to people…i wanted to do rads and was not going to make a myopic decision based on the job market at that given time..worked out well, by the time i was coming out of residency (cerca 2004) there were jobs EVERYWHERE.

                      now had i been disuaded and gone into some other field that was hot at the time…my life would be far different…and likely not as enjoyable

                    • ljohnson_509

                      Member
                      January 16, 2011 at 8:39 pm

                      it was likely true at the time. problem is…when you are talking about a career that can go 30 plus years, making a decision soley based on the environment during that brief moment in time, would be a HUGE MISTAKE.

                      Very true.  But like in everything else, people chase after the hot stock fund, career, etc.  It takes a truly determined person however, to go headstrong into something that at the time seems so dire.  Not being able to get a decent job in a choice locale is a downer.  Right now the future of radiology seems so bleak.  Reimbursements will continue to decrease, private group practices will be less and less common, telerad with its greater efficiencies will be more dominant, lifestyle will only get worse,  etc,.  But there may be something we can not anticipate waiting in the wings which will give radiology a new life, just like CT and MR did in the last 20 years. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 9:58 pm

                      One thing we can agree (take notes med students and interns). Radiology is NOT a lifestyle field NOR is it easy. In fact, due to the limited time to churn out studies, it is arguably the MOST STRESSFUL medical specialty in medicine. Med students focus on job availabity as a temporal disadvantage YET the real issue is being UP ALL NIGHT thinking about your misses and PRAYING you dont get sued for millions of dollars. Here is the UGLY truth, all radiologists MISS findings. Plus with the time constraints per study IT BECOMES A PRESSURE COOKER. That is why radiology is so stressful. Need to be FAST yet miss findings that will clog up your mind with mental anguish and pain.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 10:03 pm

                      People that dont truly know radiology focus on uber salaries. Yet no money in the world is worth the mental BURN that lingers in your head. There is no peace of mind when you go home after work. BRAIN IS FRIED FROM BEING AN ASSEMBLY LINE AUTOMATON.

                    • cchandc

                      Member
                      January 16, 2011 at 2:46 pm

                      I understand what you are saying, but I think that is why you should try not to define yourself by your job, even though you may spend a good chunk of time working. I think if you have and make time for other interests in your life, you would be much happier.

                    • waltermfernandesyahoo.com.br

                      Member
                      January 16, 2011 at 3:46 pm

                      If you think hanging out with blue collar workers is my panacea then my message was unclear or poorly received.
                       
                      My buddies who are carpenters, plumbers, military officers/ enlisted give me the needed perspective and frequently restore my gratitude. Several of these guys show up and give their best out of a sense of pride. I find that inspiring.
                       
                      Being a radiologist is but one part of my life. I genuinely feel honored to carry such a title and be involved in the health care team, interpreting cases and providing interventional support. When my spirit is flagging I can, most of the time, come to the table with the needed dedication, from the other fulfilling parts of my life.
                       
                      If work, title, money are the end destination then you are bound to be left wanting. I, fortunately, have a family and side hobbies/ activities which I find extremely fulfilling. I have also had the fortune of working for some really miserable, obscenely wealthy individuals. So I feel that my expectations are realistic.
                       
                      I no longer carry the resentment against my clinical colleagues for the tests that they order. I have been in their clinics and ERs and its a nightmare. I wouldn’t want their job, nor do I think that I could do it… so I leave them to their decisions.
                       
                      My reports also aren’t just data processing and differentials. That would bore the crud out of me. I limit the differentials to those applicable to the patients history and presentation. That is the intellectually stimulating part. I think my clinical colleagues appreciate this. I still get fired up when I get a “thanks, that helped alot”
                       
                      Take all this with a grain of salt though, as I am the geek that still finds some cases very cool and has to/ wants to show my colleagues. I’m also the turd that loved residency, it was a blast hanging out with a group of 20 people learning and developing new skills/ knowledge and having the chance to make a difference.
                       
                      Sorry to be such a downer.

                    • cchandc

                      Member
                      January 16, 2011 at 9:55 pm

                      ORIGINAL: Tuff Gong

                      If you think hanging out with blue collar workers is my panacea then my message was unclear or poorly received.

                      My buddies who are carpenters, plumbers, military officers/ enlisted give me the needed perspective and frequently restore my gratitude. Several of these guys show up and give their best out of a sense of pride. I find that inspiring.

                      Being a radiologist is but one part of my life. I genuinely feel honored to carry such a title and be involved in the health care team, interpreting cases and providing interventional support. When my spirit is flagging I can, most of the time, come to the table with the needed dedication, from the other fulfilling parts of my life.

                      If work, title, money are the end destination then you are bound to be left wanting. I, fortunately, have a family and side hobbies/ activities which I find extremely fulfilling. I have also had the fortune of working for some really miserable, obscenely wealthy individuals. So I feel that my expectations are realistic.

                      I no longer carry the resentment against my clinical colleagues for the tests that they order. I have been in their clinics and ERs and its a nightmare. I wouldn’t want their job, nor do I think that I could do it… so I leave them to their decisions.

                      My reports also aren’t just data processing and differentials. That would bore the crud out of me. I limit the differentials to those applicable to the patients history and presentation. That is the intellectually stimulating part. I think my clinical colleagues appreciate this. I still get fired up when I get a “thanks, that helped alot”

                      Take all this with a grain of salt though, as I am the geek that still finds some cases very cool and has to/ wants to show my colleagues. I’m also the turd that loved residency, it was a blast hanging out with a group of 20 people learning and developing new skills/ knowledge and having the chance to make a difference.

                      Sorry to be such a downer.

                      well said. exactly my sentiments.

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 21, 2019 at 9:11 pm

                      You chose this lifestyle, no one else. It’s very easy to generate other streams of income and retire early or reduce your hours or do something else, if you wish. In the internet age, there’s no excuse anymore. I don’t have sympathy for someone with a high salary who can’t FIRE in less than three years from writing down a plan to execution. Sorry to be so harsh. I love Radiology but there are so many things in this world that you won’t see or do if you keep doing the same thing for 30 years.

                    • Dr_Cocciolillo

                      Member
                      February 21, 2019 at 10:05 pm

                      3 yrs from plan to FIRE ? I think you lucked into good real estate opportunities from reading prior posts. There is nothing fool proof in life and timing is everything.

                    • ranweiss

                      Member
                      February 21, 2019 at 10:16 pm

                      Quote from Re3iRtH

                      You chose this lifestyle, no one else. It’s very easy to generate other streams of income and retire early or reduce your hours or do something else, if you wish. In the internet age, there’s no excuse anymore. [b]I don’t have sympathy for someone with a high salary who can’t FIRE in less than three years from writing down a plan to execution.[/b] Sorry to be so harsh. I love Radiology but there are so many things in this world that you won’t see or do if you keep doing the same thing for 30 years.

                       
                       
                      GTFO. Stop trolling. with 350k in debt for a regular grad and working on from there, in our current predatory atmosphere, you don’t have sympathy for someone who wants FIRE in 3 or less on a radiologist income ? are you basically retarded or just a super troll? 

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 21, 2019 at 10:37 pm

                      See my reply above. If a school teacher with $50,000 in school debt and a $60,000 per year salary can FIRE in five or six years (this happens a lot more then you might think with folks who are deliberate and intentioned), a radiologist with $300,000 in debt and a $400,000 salary should be able to do it in LESS time. Can’t argue with simple math here buddy.

                      Either you’ve inflated your lifestyle to that a physician and then came to a forum to complain about the grind of your job, or you were too lazy or cool to learn about other streams of income. Now you know better. If you don’t like 3 years, make it 5. Start today. Trading your time for dollars is never a good strategy, and the tax treatment sucks 😉

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 21, 2019 at 11:11 pm

                      Quote from Re3iRtH

                      See my reply above. [b]If a school teacher with $50,000 in school debt and a $60,000 per year salary can FIRE in five or six years[/b] (this happens a lot more then you might think with folks who are deliberate and intentioned), a radiologist with $300,000 in debt and a $400,000 salary should be able to do it in LESS time. Can’t argue with simple math here buddy.

                      Either you’ve inflated your lifestyle to that a physician and then came to a forum to complain about the grind of your job, or you were too lazy or cool to learn about other streams of income. Now you know better. If you don’t like 3 years, make it 5. Start today. Trading your time for dollars is never a good strategy, and the tax treatment sucks 😉

                       
                      What do you smoke? 
                      Someone with 50K salary  can FIRE in 5-6 years???? That means almost all Americans should be able to do it.  

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 21, 2019 at 11:52 pm

                      Have you met most Americans? Extremely lazy, and not forward-looking.

                      What I’m saying is the information is out there to learn. I did it. You can make a ton of mistakes and still develop enough passive income to reduce or eliminate your day job if you wish.

                      Take a dart and throw it anywhere on Asia, and guaranteed people from their country will outwork the average American.

                      The opportunity to do this sort of stuff is insanely good here in America. We are blessed. You don’t even really need your own money to do it, that’s the funny thing. The reality is, people are working so hard and are so tired, when they go home all they want to do is eat and watch Netflix. They aren’t thinking about financial freedom.

                      If it’s one thing I’ve learned is that you need down time to be able to plan and make investments. Most people are so caught up in their mundane lives and getting tired from working their day job — they don’t have time to sit down and journal, write a business plan, or set a 6 and 12-month goal. They think that trading time for dollars is the answer.

                      The powers-that-be pumped so much money into the economy latt that it’s insanely easy to get. There is so much capital out there waiting to invest and stuff (ie. wire you money) it’s almost scary.

                    • al.georgiev_193

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 4:29 am

                      I think I could easily FIRE in my early 40s if I didnt have kids, but will probably end up retiring in late 50s since I have kids (and everything that goes with it, e.g. home mortgage, future college tuition, etc). But no regrets, it was my wifes and my choice to have kids and even though they exhaust us to no end (all are under age 7), they make our lives richer every day. My plan is 1 wife, 1 house, 1 job since Im happy with all 3 of them 🙂

                    • katiemckee84_223

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 11:31 am

                      The paradox of it all is that if you are physician married with children, you don’t really need to do anything regarding income unless you absolutely hate your job and/or are stressed by it where your health is affected.
                       
                      It’s the freedom of single people where early retirement is more valuable. Yet we want what you have (most guys do want a good wife and family), and you want what we have (be a big swingin’ dick around the world). Classic grass is greener stuff, of course depending on your particular values.

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 12:18 pm

                      You bring up some good points. I routinely ask married men, to sell me that idea of marriage. I don’t even ask it that way. I just ask a general statement about them being married and if they would recommend it.

                      Inevitably, a tired look comes across their face and they just don’t/can’t sell it to me. A list of downsides inevitably materializes with few, if any, upsides. I have yet to hear a married men tell me immediately “Yes, I recommend it!”. There’s a lot of sighing, tired looks, and justification going on.

                      I think having children is a personal decision and it’s something that I plan to do in the future. However, being married is like giving up 95% to obtain 5%, if you catch my drift. The married men that I know it look beat down, they are out of shape, and it looks like someone is telling them what to do in life. I have talked with over a hundred married men, and one person has yet to naturally and confidently sell me the idea of marriage.

                      So when you say that married men want a lot of what a successful single guy has, I’ll buy that. However, I don’t think the reverse is true. I know a lot of married men, some of them very intimately. They had more energy, freedom, options, a zest for life, that they don’t have anymore while married. I have no idea why. The idea of a pack mule plowing through the fields in an ice wagon comes to mind.

                    • g.giancaspro_108

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 12:21 pm

                      There is no logical reason for successful men or women to marry. I hope your generation puts an end to that nonsense.

                    • Dr_Cocciolillo

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 12:36 pm

                      Kids are the reason to get married. Otherwise , no reason to imo
                      Realize that with child support laws being what they are, you cant escape your money being siphoned off to a certain extent if you have kids.

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 12:44 pm

                      You’re out of your mind if you believe that getting married makes it harder or easier to have kids or harder or easier for your partner to leave you.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 23, 2019 at 3:45 am

                      Quote from Re3iRtH

                      I think having children is a personal decision and it’s something that I plan to do in the future.
                       
                      However, being married is like giving up 95% to obtain 5%, if you catch my drift. The married men that I know it look beat down, they are out of shape, and it looks like someone is telling them what to do in life. I have talked with over a hundred married men, and one person has yet to naturally and confidently sell me the idea of marriage.

                       
                      So you want to have children, but do not want to be saddled with the wife. 
                      Hmm
                      Are you going to be the primary (or maybe only) parent. Or is your concept to just have the kids, see them born and then take off for greener pastures (of course, after you get a divorce in Poland that frees you of the financial responsibility for them?) What is the point, simply to prove you can do it?
                       
                      You have to be aware that kids do better in two parent situations. You are planning to have kids and planning to damage them from the outset. 
                       
                      that is pretty amazing.
                       
                       
                       

                    • dwaynen31

                      Member
                      March 10, 2019 at 10:54 am

                      First world problems. Im sure if you asked the average American worker about people complaining about sitting in a comfortable chair in an air conditioned or heated office about how hard it is to make around 500k per year youd either be laughed at or looked at in disdain. Then again everything is all relative. Like others have said before, with an average radiologists income it is very easy to become FIRE if you live below your means and invest wisely. Its up to you.

                    • ivywilliams45

                      Member
                      July 27, 2019 at 7:26 am

                      OP, you seem demoralized, which I can relate to. There is this book Drive (Daniel Pink) that clarified a lot of my personal frustrations.  Money/vacation time/rvu data serves as some form of external validation and can kill one’s internal fulfillment.  Many PP are setup to destroy the soul of hard workers and the lazy fly by and the decisionmakers prefer to only put out big fires.   Reading a bunch of studies in a vacuum can make the sane mind unwind.  I agree with the other posts of finding meaning in nuance and relationships.  Develop your role at work to pursue more fulfilling endeavors.  If those are not apparent, switch jobs.  This binary notion of academic v PP is vapid. Go break some sh** at work (ideologically, not the dictaphone) and then get involved in rebuilding it.  Otherwise, you will dream about being in borders coffee shop (i’ve done it, kind of boring after an hour or two).

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 11, 2019 at 2:46 pm

                      Understand where OP is coming from nearly 8 years out I am clearly no longer the gung ho bright eyed bushy tailed new radiologist and I find that most of my colleagues (>10 years in practice, some >20) are there to get the work done and make a salary. The parts I enjoy most teaching, is diminished by work load. My solution is freeing myself up to do more of the things outside radiology that I love. I definitely don't see myself doing this for 30 years

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 11, 2019 at 7:55 pm

                      Quote from Apathetic&luvinit

                      Understand where OP is coming from nearly 8 years out I am clearly no longer the gung ho bright eyed bushy tailed new radiologist and I find that most of my colleagues (>10 years in practice, some >20) are there to get the work done and make a salary. The parts I enjoy most teaching, is diminished by work load. My solution is freeing myself up to do more of the things outside radiology that I love. I definitely don’t see myself doing this for 30 years

                       
                      I’m 12 years out and pretty much do it for the check… no shame in that. Embrace it.  Rads has allowed me a lifestyle beyond my expectations.  But, it is still ultimately a job and a grind.  Many people grind it out for far less.  I actually enjoy the intellectual aspects of rads and medicine in general, but my job is just bread and butter boring repetitive cases, so I try to get some of the intellectual satisfaction from CME and meetings….

                    • julie.young_645

                      Member
                      August 12, 2019 at 5:35 am

                      Quote from Waduh Dong

                      I’m 12 years out and pretty much do it for the check… no shame in that. Embrace it.  Rads has allowed me a lifestyle beyond my expectations.  But, it is still ultimately a job and a grind.  Many people grind it out for far less.  I actually enjoy the intellectual aspects of rads and medicine in general, but my job is just bread and butter boring repetitive cases, so I try to get some of the intellectual satisfaction from CME and meetings….

                       

                      Quote from icthrewu

                       

                      Is this thread a joke? Guys do your passion, love radiology or find something else. An extra two weeks vacation or extra 100k 15 years from now will not make that much difference to your overall happiness. Having satisfaction and meaning with your work will.  The happiest physicians btw are pediatricians–the lowest paid. 

                       
                       
                      Hey, Waduh…did you perhaps know a couple of long-gone posters, Hugh G. and Heywood Jab…never mind. Even more maturity on display.
                       
                      It is sad that you are on (or feel you are on) an assembly line. Something keeps you there, probably the check as you describe. But as icthrewu so poignantly tells us, when you look back on your life in a few years time, what will you think?
                       
                      Too many of us are stuck on the revenue rat race, quite literally selling our souls for a few extra bucks. That’s really not the legacy you want to leave your children. Or yourself.

                    • ginamarie123078

                      Member
                      August 12, 2019 at 5:55 am

                      Cant earn ALL the moneys. I have moved back to academics from private practice and although the salary is considerably lower, I find the slower pace and having time to teach and interact with trainees refreshing. If youre grinding hard in PP consider how long before you burn out.

                      Cheers

                    • emily.perry_477

                      Member
                      August 12, 2019 at 7:53 am

                      There is no shame in working in assembly line.  Our expertise (or any one else in that matter) comes from doing same or similar things days in days out, thousands, if not ten of thousands times throughout our career.  I take pride in that.   Patients rely on that.

                    • katiemckee84_223

                      Member
                      August 12, 2019 at 9:56 am

                      Quote from Hubcap

                      There is no shame in working in assembly line.  Our expertise (or any one else in that matter) comes from doing same or similar things days in days out, thousands, if not ten of thousands times throughout our career.  I take pride in that.   Patients rely on that.

                       
                      A refreshingly honest, direct answer. Good for you hub

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 13, 2019 at 2:57 am

                      Quote from Intermittent Blasting

                      Quote from Hubcap

                      There is no shame in working in assembly line.  Our expertise (or any one else in that matter) comes from doing same or similar things days in days out, thousands, if not ten of thousands times throughout our career.  I take pride in that.   Patients rely on that.

                      A refreshingly honest, direct answer. Good for you hub

                       
                      To each his own, I guess. 
                       
                      I get painfully bored when I do too much of one thing. The word painfully was carefully chosen. During long reading sessions of the same sort of stuff, my mind starts wandering to “what can we do with this that is new?” and “wouldn’t it be fun if we did it THIS way?”
                       
                      And it should be pointed out that a properly functioning group needs ALL types – those who like to grind, those who like to do some administration, those who like to spruce up protocols, those who like to do “practice advancement”,  (and in academics, those who like to teach, and those who like to do research). Moreover, in a properly functioning group, each of those in a particular niche will appreciate what the others do, rather than attack them for not being clones of themselves. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      January 16, 2011 at 6:43 pm

                      Are you even a rads resident or even an intern? Giving advice with no experience in radiology is ludicrous. Now walkaway.

                      ORIGINAL: hopefulradsfuture

                      I understand what you are saying, but I think that is why you should try not to define yourself by your job, even though you may spend a good chunk of time working. I think if you have and make time for other interests in your life, you would be much happier.

              • Unknown Member

                Deleted User
                January 15, 2011 at 2:58 pm

                ORIGINAL: hopefulradsfuture
                “You got your head so far up your ass about that damn football team, you don’t get the fact that you just got a year of top quality education! Waste? Quit wasting my time! ”

                 
                Rudy.

      • Unknown Member

        Deleted User
        January 15, 2011 at 11:21 am

        Lets cut the BS. You feel this way bc YOU DID SELL OUT. And continue to do so everyday you continue to stay in rads. For what it is worth at least you are honest. 90% of rads feel this way but dont want to admit they made a mistake going into rads. Bc if they do it will require one to accept the notion one wasted the best years of their lives getting a career that they dont value.

        ORIGINAL: macrophallus

        Medicine in general is getting worse every year. Less money, more stress, more work, high expectations of 24/7 coverage.

        I am young and early in my career but plan on putting away money aggressively from now on, as who knows when it might all be too much.

        Sometimes I feel like I “sold out” to become a doctor/rad because it was a safe and easy way to use my god-gifted smarts to make a stable nice living – I basically didn’t persue my true passions but instead took the safe route in life — this is a true drag at times.

  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    January 15, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    Oh, you hate your job? Why didnt you say so? Theres a support group for that. Its called everybody, and they meet at the bar.

    ~Drew Carey

    • lisbef3_453

      Member
      January 17, 2011 at 7:37 am

      ORIGINAL: Jerkstore

      Oh, you hate your job? Why didnt you say so? Theres a support group for that. Its called everybody, and they meet at the bar.

      ~Drew Carey

      This.

      It’s hard to claim signal/noise hasn’t dropped a lot over the past decade:  indication creep in the ED, notch to crotch fishing expeditions on every IP with fever, finding and following countless incidentalomas that the old equipment couldn’t even see, etc etc.  Remember when the only after hours MR indication was cord compression?

      The solution?  Live below your means, sock away a pile of FU money, and for crissakes never get divorced.  You don’t want to be that poor schlub grinding away to survive on 20% of your gross into your 70s.  Want to see ‘bitter’, that’s it.

  • DanielQuilli

    Member
    January 16, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    ORIGINAL: Farve

    One of the best and honest posts ever on Auntminnie. Agree 100%. Many current attendings, residents, and current med students matching into rads will come to this same conclusion. People argue that they LOVE rads (mostly 4th year med students, interns, and 1st year rads residents). When they hit their first job they will realize a career in radiology with staring at thousands of mammograms, millions of portable chests will NEVER fill the internal fulfillment of a fulfilling career. Lets be real, even if you get one interesting case a day, it is boring and monotonus. Lastly, the idiot that laid down and said use ones intellect in rads. You are so clueless. Once you finish your training, it is pattern recognition then spitting out differentials. Acruing a mental image library is all that is required. RADIOLOGY DOES NOT REQUIRE GREAT INTELLECT. It is visual observation thats it.

    ORIGINAL: macrophallus

    On the surface Tuff Gong, everything you say is accurate. No one would argue with the good parts of being a radiologists. I am thankful to be in this profession, and yes I have the paid off luxury car and mansion in the gated community etc – all made possible by rads.

    However, once you have the creature comforts you have desired, you start to become enlightened to the fact that they do not really bring much happiness or contentment. It is great to have financial freedom, but in reality there must be a higher meaning to your career and/or life to remain satisfied. You begin to question what motivates you in life and what you want out of your profession.

    When I am sitting in front of a computer on a Sunday really garbage cases out of the ER over and over…. it is not very satisfying, even if I do it from the comfort of my mansion.

    We, as physicians, are an intellectual group, and frankly grubbing for money and material possessions is not really what drives me – it is using my brain, leaning new things, exploring new avenues of thought etc. I feel gifted to have been given a strong intellect and curiosity about the world, and would like spend my time using it.  Sadly, radiology in private practice is often devoid of this need. 

    I doubt hanging out with a plumber would really change these issues.

     
    I dont seek fulfillment from my career. Maybe thats your problem. My fulfillment comes from friends and family and the activities I enjoy, none of which takes in inordinate amount of money. To me, radiology is just something I do to pay the bills, nothing more, nothing less. If I found myself not enjoying it I would quit without hesitation.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      January 16, 2011 at 5:49 pm

      Perhaps my post was jaded due to this brutal weekend of call. In any event, I certainly enjoy the philosophical posts in this thread. I think it is very useful to see how others deal with the same issues as I face.

      I have a lot of other great things in life – wife, kids, hobbies etc that I really enjoy. But, I sort of was limiting my commentary to work – and the issues with the daily grind of rads.

      Don’t get me wrong, I feel very blessed to be a doctor and radiologists – and I am a bit of a dork too in that I enjoy science, technology, etc. Having said that the daily grind of radiology private practice does take a lot out of me in that respect on occasion.

      Such is life I suppose.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      January 16, 2011 at 6:53 pm

      Tiger, you are so blinded by your current life you dont have the insight to see the future. As a fresh attending your optimism is high. Wait until the luster wears out that you spend more wake hours at work then at home. You will realize that the work is repetitive and provides little stimulation. Let me break it down for you. We all need fulfillment from our chosen career. After reading your post it is fair to say that your career in the grand scheme of things means nothing to you except the means that it provides. Twenty years from now you will feel what Macrophallus is feeling now. It is sad that you admit your work provides no internal fulfillment. This dissatisfaction will slowly grow inside you. You are on your way. Welcome to our world.

      ORIGINAL: tigershark06

      ORIGINAL: Farve

      One of the best and honest posts ever on Auntminnie. Agree 100%. Many current attendings, residents, and current med students matching into rads will come to this same conclusion. People argue that they LOVE rads (mostly 4th year med students, interns, and 1st year rads residents). When they hit their first job they will realize a career in radiology with staring at thousands of mammograms, millions of portable chests will NEVER fill the internal fulfillment of a fulfilling career. Lets be real, even if you get one interesting case a day, it is boring and monotonus. Lastly, the idiot that laid down and said use ones intellect in rads. You are so clueless. Once you finish your training, it is pattern recognition then spitting out differentials. Acruing a mental image library is all that is required. RADIOLOGY DOES NOT REQUIRE GREAT INTELLECT. It is visual observation thats it.

      ORIGINAL: macrophallus

      On the surface Tuff Gong, everything you say is accurate. No one would argue with the good parts of being a radiologists. I am thankful to be in this profession, and yes I have the paid off luxury car and mansion in the gated community etc – all made possible by rads.

      However, once you have the creature comforts you have desired, you start to become enlightened to the fact that they do not really bring much happiness or contentment. It is great to have financial freedom, but in reality there must be a higher meaning to your career and/or life to remain satisfied. You begin to question what motivates you in life and what you want out of your profession.

      When I am sitting in front of a computer on a Sunday really garbage cases out of the ER over and over…. it is not very satisfying, even if I do it from the comfort of my mansion.

      We, as physicians, are an intellectual group, and frankly grubbing for money and material possessions is not really what drives me – it is using my brain, leaning new things, exploring new avenues of thought etc. I feel gifted to have been given a strong intellect and curiosity about the world, and would like spend my time using it.  Sadly, radiology in private practice is often devoid of this need. 

      I doubt hanging out with a plumber would really change these issues.

      I dont seek fulfillment from my career. Maybe thats your problem. My fulfillment comes from friends and family and the activities I enjoy, none of which takes in inordinate amount of money. To me, radiology is just something I do to pay the bills, nothing more, nothing less. If I found myself not enjoying it I would quit without hesitation.

  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    January 16, 2011 at 10:04 pm

    Just stop responding to the loser and let’s forget this pathetic thread.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      January 16, 2011 at 10:12 pm

      This thread should be called the UGLY TRUTH. MDCT knows the real truth of radiology thus he is redirecting the thread. I stand by my claims that Radiology is the most MENTALLY STRESSFUL field in medicine. Med students deserve to know the truth. They will chase money and become TRAPPED in the other side of the River Styx with their minds on FIRE with neverending days of STRESS.

      ORIGINAL: MDCT

      Just stop responding to the loser and let’s forget this pathetic thread.

      • srinella

        Member
        January 17, 2011 at 12:55 am

        Radiology isn’t even the highest litigated against specialty. In fact, I believe it is in the middle….and that number would go even lower for those that don’t read mammos.

        As far as an assembly line automaton..it depends on how you approach your job. the images that you look at…well…they are ACTUAL PATIENTS.

        You are diagnosing or excluding REAL PATHOLOGY.

        You are a KEY cog in patient care…at times you are the ONLY person that can give the referring doc the answers they need to set up appropriate care.

        If you feel that is being an automaton…then all medicine is robotic….you dont think seeing a bunch of patients in a medicine or vascular surgery clinic a few times a week is redundant?

        Ive been in a busy private practice for 5 years….first job out of fellowship….I dont think I have ever taken my job home to the point where it interfered with my mental comfort/stress levels.

        It’s only stressful if you let it be stressful to you. Additionally, residents reading this thread, if you are not in a working type residency, i encourage you to do some moonlighting before you leave….it will do wonders for getting you prepared for private practice.

        you know what was stress to me? reading films at night that i felt showed something and KNOWING in the morning i was going to get checked out by the attending that was going to disagree with me….NOT making your own calls was far more stressful than making them…

        • btomba_77

          Member
          January 17, 2011 at 4:37 am

          Started radiology residency in 1993.  Couldn’t think of a job I’d rather have.  The comment of “I’d rather hang around drinking espresso than work” (paraphrase) fits me well enough but I generally enjoy my job.
           
          There is a significant degree of repetition to it and more weekend work than I would prefer, but I still can’t think of anything else I’d rather do would compensate similarly. 
           
          *shrugs*
           
          I’ll save hard for another X years, hopefully drop to part time so I can sail more.  But I won’t be bitterly watching the clock every day.
           
          In summary, I don’t really feel “the grind”.  I guess I’m lucky.

          • ljohnson_509

            Member
            January 17, 2011 at 7:18 am

            We are all different and react in different ways to our environment.  Farve is one extreme.  You may not know how you react until you are an attending and it is too late.  I was much more mellow during residency.  Now the field at times becomes unbearable.

      • Unknown Member

        Deleted User
        January 18, 2011 at 9:01 pm

        ORIGINAL: Farve

        This thread should be called the UGLY TRUTH. MDCT knows the real truth of radiology thus he is redirecting the thread. I stand by my claims that Radiology is the most MENTALLY STRESSFUL field in medicine. Med students deserve to know the truth. They will chase money and become TRAPPED in the other side of the River Styx with their minds on FIRE with neverending days of STRESS.

        lol hello p53 = chopra = farve

        It’s been interesting to watch your posting progression over the years. You and Big Frank used to bicker constantly on sdn. And you used to post how amazing radiology was before you started residency (e.g. radiology has the SMARTEST students as evident by the MOST AOA and the MOST >240s, etc.).  And now things have changed. Well, at least your sensational opinion, anyway. But what has remained the same is the STYLE in which you post. It’s always written in such a way as to PROVOKE as many readers as possible. I don’t think you hate radiology as much as your posts may lead one to believe. No, instead I think your gig is just to poke the bees nest a bit, then run away and watch the chaos ensue from afar (you like to avoid posters’ questions that ask to know more about you, your motives for going into radiology, why you stay, etc.). Really, it’s all just a gimmick. You post like this for entertainment purposes, not because you truly believe anything you say.

        Full disclosure: I enjoy your sensationalism. It’s amusing at times to watch others fall for your traps. Every good forum needs a good troll now and then to mix things up.

        • william.wang_997

          Member
          January 18, 2011 at 9:04 pm

          Spot on diagnosis mfitz82. Those posts are auntminnies !

  • nkyhoo72_415

    Member
    January 17, 2011 at 8:12 am

    I feel ya, buddy. Same boat, here. No real cure except to know a lot of us feel the same way.
     
    Then again, it beats shovelling elephant crap at the circus.

    • jquinones8812_854

      Member
      January 17, 2011 at 8:52 am

      So basically, unless you are a Kardashian, life sucks.

      Get over it.

      • leonardo.campos2804

        Member
        January 17, 2011 at 9:06 am

        or a Busch,  oops that’s no good either.
         
        Really, end this lament.

        • blchristensen

          Member
          January 18, 2011 at 8:28 am

          For me a big part of job satisfaction is feeling like I do make a difference. It’s hard to feel like you are saving lives when you see the quantity of worthless (mostly negative) exams generated by the ER these days and then you see articles like on AM this morning where they found most clinicians look at images themselves and rarely look at the radiology report.

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            January 18, 2011 at 5:13 pm

            An article in the WSJ a while back said that work is not supposed to be fun. That is why they call it work.
            Seriously, I have worked since age 13, including throwing papers, bussing tables, making pizzas, digging holes for a GM plant, construction, and mowing. All jobs have some “grind” aspect to them. Always have and always will. Quit griping (myself included). My parents were born in a freakin farmhouse and a sod hut. My mother lived in a 1 bed apartment as a teenager above a grocery store while her dad repaired shoes in the 1930s during the depression. They were ecstatic to get fresh oranges one day.  Relatively speaking, we have it made.

  • bua041

    Member
    January 18, 2011 at 7:04 pm

    You problem – dare presume- is that you feel disconnected from the patients you are serving. Try to remember, that it is not what is wrong with the films, but what is wrong with the patients. Perhaps you need to actually try to see, introduce yourself, talk to the patients having your studies. Get involved with the patient, and the “films” come alive.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      January 18, 2011 at 8:22 pm

      All I can imagine is that the people who respond with such negativity are just addicted to negative emotions and stuck in a constant cycle of “yuck” which they feel compelled to share with the world in the hope of finding sympathy or commisuration. We all know the weird uncle at the wedding who hates life, the world, himself and anything else that anyone cares to mention.

      Something I found inspirational from an unrelated field was this quote by Jody Foster;

      By the time I got the role in Taxi Driver, I’d already made more stuff than De Niro or Martin Scorsese. I’d been working from the time I was three years old. So even though I was only twelve, I felt like I was the veteran there.

      De Niro took me aside before we started filming. He kept picking me up from my hotel and taking me to different diners. The first time he basically didn’t say anything. He would just, like, mumble. The second time he started to run lines with me, which was pretty boring because I already knew the lines. The third time, he ran lines with me again and now I was really bored. The fourth time, he ran lines with me, but then he started going off on these completely different ideas within the scene, talking about crazy things and asking me to follow in terms of improvisation.

      So we’d start with the original script and then he’d go off on some tangent and I’d have to follow, and then it was my job to eventually find the space to bring him back to the last three lines of the text we’d already learned.

      It was a huge revelation for me, because until that moment I thought being an actor was just acting naturally and saying the lines someone else wrote. Nobody had ever asked me to build a character. The only thing they’d ever done to direct me was to say something like “Say it faster” or “Say it slower.” So it was a whole new feeling for me, because I realized acting was not a dumb job. You know, I thought it was a dumb job. Somebody else writes something and then you repeat it. Like, how dumb is that?

      There was this moment, in some diner somewhere, when I realized for the first time that it was me who hadn’t brought enough to the table. And I felt this excitement where you’re all sweaty and you can’t eat and you can’t sleep.

      Changed my life.

      Long story short: your work can be as interesting or boring, tedious or fulfilling, rewarded or uncompensated as you like. It really is up to you.

      For the record I’m an underpaid, overworked fellow (read grunt/slave) in a crazy department but unless the Swedish women’s volleyball team offers me the job as team masseuse, I really wouldn’t be doing anything else.

  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    March 28, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    The grind is really starting to get to me as well…is this the future of radiology?

    ORIGINAL: Candlewax

    I’ve only been out for 5 years, but the day to day grind of radiology is starting to get to me. Sitting at your desk, reading, reading, reading. Then up for a procedure, then more reading until you go home. The next day the same. The weekends are always too short, the weekdays are always too long. There used to be a time when I genuinely enjoyed radiology. Maybe that was in training or when I was in academics when I could take my time to learn. In PP, there’s a crunch to produce more volume, to not make mistakes else you’ll upset a referring doc, to not get sued. How long can I put up with this? For those of you who have been doing this a lot longer, how have you put up with this for so long? I know it doesn’t get better, only worse. What will I think about my life after having spent 30 years doing this?

    • sagitar21_631

      Member
      March 28, 2011 at 6:21 pm

      Me, too.  It’s the present and the future of radiology.  Most days I don’t even have time to go to the bathroom or wolf down lunch because if I do, I will be many studies in the hole by then.
      I can’t stand it.
       
      Believe or not, because of this, I have decided (along with my husband, of course) to only have one child.  I can’t imagine working like a dog like this past the age of 50, so I am hoping to retire by then; this will be a little bit more do-able if I don’t have any more children.

      • william.wang_997

        Member
        March 28, 2011 at 7:39 pm

        I think more people should be hired to share work/ do overlapping shifts to get out of your predicament. The lifestyle you have mentioned is unsustainable and will result in rapid burnouts/ mistakes in reads.

        • Unknown Member

          Deleted User
          March 29, 2011 at 3:11 am

          i see clinicians all the time in the physician dining area chillin out, socializing, taking time to eat slowley, and read WSJ. on the other hand, rads always quickly grab something and run back to their dark holes for grinding more neg ER trauma CTs!
           
          rads is NOT A LIFESTYLE SPECIALTY.
           
          may be more controlled hours, but not balanced.
           
           

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            March 29, 2011 at 4:33 am

            Burnout tends to go in 5-7 year cycles.
             
            You hit your first one ofter 5 years or so when you pay off most of the loans have some coin in your pocket but now have a mortgage payment and a kid or 2 .  So you suck it up realize you have to be the provider find a few hobbies get involved in kids activites and coast along for another 5-7 years.
             
            12-15 years out of residency you realize you have paid most of your mortgage you have some decent investments and more coin in your pocket than you ever imagined.  Then you realize the kids are bigger they really only need you for the car or a few bucks and your spouse is too busy in her stuff to really care and your job is the sme old same old.  So you muck around for a while feeling sorry for your self until you have a mini mid life crisis reinvent yourself and move on with a few new hobbies and a fresh outlook
             
            20-25 years out-????????  I’ll let you know when the next one comes around.
             
             
            Bottom line- Don’t sweat it, stuff happens roll with it and move on trying to have a little fun and a few hobbies in the process.

            • Unknown Member

              Deleted User
              March 29, 2011 at 2:44 pm

              Somebody put it this way, “The best thing about radiology is that it’s LEGAL.” Cool. I’ll go with that. Be a perfectionist. Get a kick out of it.

              As for Farve, you sound not terribly happy. What would you do if you had a choice? Perhaps you can still do it. It might not be too late for you. I think it might be a mistake for you to generalize things and equate your experience to others. Everybody doesn’t have to fit the exact same mold. That’s why life is interesting, Go find what pleases you. Unless it’s staying on these boards trying to make everybody kill themselves. If that’s what gives you a kick, declare it now and be honest, like you are always advising everyone else to be. Why don’t you?

              • jquinones8812_854

                Member
                March 29, 2011 at 3:37 pm

                Is there any job without burnout? That is not a grind? Someone please tell me, so I can go do that.

  • sagitar21_631

    Member
    March 29, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    There is no job that is without burnout.  But when I decided to go into Radiology, I had no idea that it would be this constant barrage of studies, this overwhelming pressure to produce, this incredible stress-filled existence.  It’s not just plain films and CT’s for appy, diverticulitis that roll in after hours, but also complicated whole body scans for trauma, cancer, etc., with everything no matter if unnecessary, requiring a STAT read.  If you don’t clean up everything, other Radiologists, clinicians, even secretaries are complaining about you right away.
     
    And for most of us, it’s too late to do anything else–realistically.  So, we just go through the motions until we retire (HOPEFULLY BY 50).

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      March 29, 2011 at 6:44 pm

      sounds like your department is understaffed or has workflow issues. if you can’t make your current job a little better, maybe try academics or look for a slower-paced job that values lifestyle a little more than pure income.

      • ljohnson_509

        Member
        March 29, 2011 at 7:00 pm

        “sounds like your department is understaffed or has workflow issues.”

        where do you work radinc?  I have worked in several private practices and they are all like raddoc123 describes.

        • Dr_Cocciolillo

          Member
          March 29, 2011 at 8:16 pm

          i don’t know if academics are necessarily the answer.  For one, the number of positive cases in academics is probably twice the number in PP and probably 3 times what you see in outpatient practices.  so even though, at the end of the day you only read 30 or 40 cases, some of the liver, panc, whatever transplant s/p this and that in the meantime…that takes way more effort than the 3 ER “r/o left pain” or whatever the heck.   anyone else agree on this? 

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            March 29, 2011 at 9:40 pm

            i see what you’re saying but i only agree to some extent. what about contribution of residents and fellows? did you ever see an attending go in at 630am to start reading overnight cases so he won’t get behind, then skip morning conference and noon conference and pound cases until 6 pm, eating lunch at the workstation? no matter how complex his set of postop FUBAR caseload is?
             
            i don’t envy academics – they get paid less though they have comfortable secure pension schemes, plus they get residents/fellows helping out so makes for a more relaxed work environment.
             
            i wonder how long before this discussion becomes like the one on stay home spouses having the hardest job in the world….

          • sanad50_506

            Member
            March 29, 2011 at 9:44 pm

            As a non acgme accredited fellow in msk we would have to rotate through the chest and abdomen sections and staff out the cases along with other staff attendings. The staff attendings tended to leave the post op cases ie transplant cases or multiphase ct ‘s for liver or pancreas cases on the list for the fellows and they would swipe the stone or appy cases or high res chest cases. They got bonuses on their rvus so they would game the system. I would have to look at notes to make sure what was going on since their last few ct’s. The provided histories were useless and many times they had complex surgeries elsewhere and were being transferred to the university now and now I would have to make sense of what has happened and if you were wrong the surgeons would come down and tell you exactly what they had obviously. I agree these cases were a pain compared to the usual cases seen in pvt practice thank heavens. I guess if I had done a body fellowship I may feel different and would like the challenge. I agree wisdom.

            • Unknown Member

              Deleted User
              March 29, 2011 at 10:01 pm

              but you also agree with me right? (just kidding). you’re saying the attending at your fellowship program didn’t have to work as hard because you did a lot of the heavy lifting, right?

        • Unknown Member

          Deleted User
          March 30, 2011 at 12:06 am

          ORIGINAL: birad

          “sounds like your department is understaffed or has workflow issues.”

          where do you work radinc?  I have worked in several private practices and they are all like raddoc123 describes.

          and they are all understaffed… I mean I bust my hump all day long wolfing down lunch while dictating like most others, but this is my choice… there are some practices out there that are a little slower paced (they make less of course). I agree most rad practices are heavy workload and understaffed because this keeps incomes high.

          I think the attendings in academics work way less than pp rads. it’s not even a comparison. the residents and fellows do all the hard work generally, at least in the academic rad departments I have been a part of.

          later,
          radinc

  • Melenas

    Member
    February 20, 2019 at 8:20 pm

    Quote from Ipecac

    I’ve only been out for 5 years, but the day to day grind of radiology is starting to get to me. Sitting at your desk, reading, reading, reading. Then up for a procedure, then more reading until you go home. The next day the same. The weekends are always too short, the weekdays are always too long. There used to be a time when I genuinely enjoyed radiology. Maybe that was in training or when I was in academics when I could take my time to learn. In PP, there’s a crunch to produce more volume, to not make mistakes else you’ll upset a referring doc, to not get sued. How long can I put up with this? For those of you who have been doing this a lot longer, how have you put up with this for so long? I know it doesn’t get better, only worse. What will I think about my life after having spent 30 years doing this?

    So after 8 years later, how do you feel about your original post? So you’re out 13 years now? did you do anything differently? are you still grinding it out? or did you go part time?
     
     

    • Melenas

      Member
      February 21, 2019 at 2:17 pm

      I’m about 5 years into private practice right out of training and I feel the same way. It feels like a sweatshop. And as for ‘work less’. Is that really an option? most places aren’t looking for someone who will come in and work half time, not take call. Every group seems to want the same thing – work hard, take call and get paid a lot. Many of the part time jobs out there seem to be the shifts no one wants to work. And as for vRAD, teleran groups, I haven’t heard a single good thing – click to pay type of job, which again is a sweat shop model. And friends in academic tell me it is not that much different for them. 

      • ljohnson_509

        Member
        February 21, 2019 at 2:22 pm

        Yes radiology is miserable for the most part. Good part time gig is tough to find and keep. You eventually reach a point when money doesnt do as much for you and you want something more fulfilling, slower pace and not as malignant and productivity oriented. Out of luck in radiology! Keep grinding until your financially independent or dead.

  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    February 21, 2019 at 4:56 pm

    Almost a decade out of training.

    Some – many – jobs are grinds, not the entire field of radiology.

    Some groups do allow partners to go part time.

    Choose a job that is not a grind and where the radiologists are not miserable.

    My job is not a grind at all, good gig.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      February 21, 2019 at 5:22 pm

      This thread makes me sad. We are supposed to be healers, don’t forget that. You can not heal others well if you are ignoring your own need(s) to heal. Make time for yourself.  Unwind.  Breathe.
       
      See what has happened to the brains of people who have meditated for years?  Go try it, but you have to give it months, not days to change your mind. 
       
      It will change you for the better, but it takes patience to build equanimity, which many of us have lost in this harried day and age.

      • Unknown Member

        Deleted User
        February 21, 2019 at 5:44 pm

        Removed due to GDPR request

        • Unknown Member

          Deleted User
          February 21, 2019 at 6:50 pm

          Expect it to get worse as the boomers continue to age and utilize heathcare more on top of more midlevels entering healthcare and inappropriately ordering radiology exams.

          • afazio.uk_887

            Member
            February 21, 2019 at 7:26 pm

            Ah a necro bump! 
            Let’s see, since the originally thread :
            – My small community hospital was purchased my mega health care chain with academic affiliation.
            – My practice was merged with large regional PP, fortunately we stayed on as partners and with only a small hit to salary but better benefits.
            – Corporate rad groups been snooping around our area (never heard of them in 2011)
            – ER volumes continue to climb and reimbursement dropping.
            – Less autonomy / control and feel almost insignificant in new large health care entities.
            – Basically, a well paid cog in the wheel! 
            – Only good thing we cut back our workload quite a bit, took less income, and have switched to a more lifestyle oriented view of our practice.
            – Overall – very little good has occurred for me professionally, the individual radiologist, since 2011. Sucks!
             
             

            • Melenas

              Member
              February 21, 2019 at 8:58 pm

              Yikes!

            • ipadfawazipad_778

              Member
              February 21, 2019 at 9:02 pm

              There is hope! Happened to take a pp job in a ruralish area which is basically half time. Make at least 60% of FT average PP. considering taxes is probably more like 75. Work hard when there, but rewarding and have a ton of automy. Group just signed long term contract extension. Life is too short. If youre miserable, make a change!

  • jeevonbenning_648

    Member
    February 21, 2019 at 10:31 pm

    I didn’t luck into anything. I read about real estate investing extensively for 2 years and met with many folks that became my mentors. The, I created a business plan where I would buy my first rental, buy a second one two years later, buy a third one year after that, buy two more of the following year. This is exactly what I did.

    Real estate is just one example. I can think of a dozen others. Don’t focus on the time frame. Make it 5 or 7 years for all I care. The general message still stands. When you wake up in the morning, if going to that job is not exactly and precisely what you want to be doing, you shouldn’t be doing it. Anyone that’s doing this is lying to themselves at their very core. Only a fool or sadomasochist lies to himself like this.

    To the angry guy – a military radiologist may not have medical school debt but earns less than half what a civilian radiologist does. Do the math. After year 5 you’re probably ahead.

  • mario.mtz30_447

    Member
    February 22, 2019 at 1:17 pm

    Many professional groups, including rad groups look favorably upon married status and look down on single status. Of course its not verbalized.

    Almost like a married person is somehow more responsible.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      February 22, 2019 at 1:22 pm

      Misery likes companion.

      • mariana.gonzalez_122

        Member
        February 22, 2019 at 1:39 pm

        Maybe i have Stockholm syndrome. But she is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I’m 100% positive she’s my soul mate. Don’t worry reburth, I’m sure there’s a babe out there for you too. Peace out.

        • Unknown Member

          Deleted User
          February 22, 2019 at 1:50 pm

          My observation of single folks that I know well seems to be that of people “living lives of quiet desperation” rather than living it up as the poster would make you believe, but I’m obviously biased, as I happen to have been very lucky in the wife/kids dept. Wouldn’t have it any other way.

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            February 22, 2019 at 2:35 pm

            Been married 26 years – the best thing I’ve ever done.
             
            Choose wisely and your life will be infinitely enriched.  But, choose poorly and poor is what you’ll be.

            • cieminsjohn

              Member
              February 22, 2019 at 2:52 pm

              its a mixed bag …  I’d probably still be in my 1st job if not for my wife.  But I’m not sure I get my 1st job if I wasn’t married. 
               
               

              • jeevonbenning_648

                Member
                February 22, 2019 at 3:07 pm

                A marriage lasting more than 7 years is considered a “successful marriage”. So we all know that 50% of marriages end in divorce. So this would mean that 50% of marriages are successful, right? Well let’s break the 50% successful down. The majority of those folks stay married for reasons other than them being happy. Children, “cheaper to keep her”, guilt, fear of divorce, time invested, low self worth, religion, etc. From the data I’ve seen, then number of those who stay married because they’re happy is in the single digits over time. Not great odds.

                All that aside, I have yet to hear a single benefit to a man for being married, that he can’t get from not being married. The sad truth is, a wife gave her best sex to the alpha dude(s) in her 20s or to the guy that she will ultimately cheat on her husband with before the divorce. Without going too much detail, let’s just say I have pretty robust experience in this regard 😉 As a married man, are you okay knowing this? I have to admit, the church got this idea right.

                • afazio.uk_887

                  Member
                  February 22, 2019 at 3:28 pm

                  ^^ This is a pretty cynical point of view but has some validity.  I married a woman from a different cultural background (ie non-Western) and it has been a great 15 years.  Granted, her upbringing was more conservative / traditional.

                  • Unknown Member

                    Deleted User
                    February 22, 2019 at 3:55 pm

                    @Re3iRtH,

                    The second part of your
                    post is very superficial at best. Don’t mean to make a personal attaxk, but these kind of posts come from college guys or people who have never experienced a deep emotional relationship (be it marriage or not). Women are not some sex objects that depreciate over time. Your wife is a human being with deep emotions and idea similar to 1000 other people who goes through different stages of life like you and mean and hopefully become more mature over time. So just saying that she gave her best sex in her 20s to some other dude is shortsighted at best. There is a huge difference between “having sex” and “making love”.

                    And before acuusing me that I don’t know what I am talking about, I assure you that I have also gone through my wild phase in my 20s and has had more than enough experiences in that department.

                    • mariana.gonzalez_122

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 4:49 pm

                      Oh god this guy is a douche. Back to the daily grind. Second interesting thread ive seen him demolish

                    • katiemckee84_223

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 5:17 pm

                      Quote from Hospital-Rad

                      @Re3iRtH,

                      The second part of your
                      post is very superficial at best. Don’t mean to make a personal attaxk, but these kind of posts come from college guys or people who have never experienced a deep emotional relationship (be it marriage or not). Women are not some sex objects that depreciate over time. Your wife is a human being with deep emotions and idea similar to 1000 other people who goes through different stages of life like you and mean and hopefully become more mature over time. So just saying that she gave her best sex in her 20s to some other dude is shortsighted at best. There is a huge difference between “having sex” and “making love”.

                      And before acuusing me that I don’t know what I am talking about, I assure you that I have also gone through my wild phase in my 20s and has had more than enough experiences in that department.

                       
                      This is not an attack, HospitalRad, but we’re talking about serious marriage here. Your white knighting will do nothing to counteract the fact that even though, yes, the would be wife is a human with emotions, she gave her very best assets and goods to men who aren’t her husband. And she can’t get those back.
                       
                      Before other white knights chime in about the double standard between men and women, the answer is, yes they exist and no it’s not fair. But life never was. And biology is real and it doesn’t cause men to initiate divorce 80%, or desire to marry someone who is 3x his sexual market value.
                       
                      There’s a reason why Oprah doesn’t give you, or me, a boner. Yet she’s got 50 billion. And you know what?
                       
                      No one cares.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 22, 2019 at 5:41 pm

                      Maybe you guys are just so fng weird and dorky that you cant get a decent woman

                      Ive been married to best woman on the planet for 30 yrs

                      Advice: try not being an arsehole

                      Maybe you can get a date

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 22, 2019 at 5:47 pm

                      What is even funnier is the 30 something who expects perfection

                      But are geeky and far from perfect

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 22, 2019 at 6:44 pm

                      Quote from kpack123

                      What is even funnier is the 30 something who expects perfection

                      But are geeky and far from perfect

                       
                      I have seen it both ways. 
                      38 year old woman with college degree and 40K Income who is looking for a good looking rich doctor who is not 3-4 years older than her.
                      Or  a 40 year old fat-out-of-shape dentist who is looking for a hot gorgeous doctor not older than 30-32. 
                       
                      It seems people don’t look at themselves when it comes to relationships. They seek perfection, although I have seen it more in women. 
                       
                       
                       
                       

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 22, 2019 at 6:49 pm

                      Quote from Intermittent Blasting

                      This is not an attack, HospitalRad, but we’re talking about serious marriage here. Your white knighting will do nothing to counteract the fact that even though, yes, the would be wife is a human with emotions, [b]she gave her very best assets and goods to men who aren’t her husband. [/b]And she can’t get those back.

                      Before other white knights chime in about the double standard between men and women, the answer is, yes they exist and no it’s not fair. But life never was. And biology is real and it doesn’t cause men to initiate divorce 80%, or desire to marry someone who is 3x his sexual market value.

                      There’s a reason why Oprah doesn’t give you, or me, a boner. Yet she’s got 50 billion. And you know what?

                      No one cares.

                       
                      This is objectification of women. You can argue that she had sex with a man who was not her husband when she was at her peak of physical attractiveness. But there is a lot lot more into a woman than just her body and her best very assets and goods are many many more than just sex. 
                       
                      But agree with you that life is not fair. Biology is not fair. And we were not born the same. Some people were born with some natural talents that give them the opportunity to make a fortune (professional NBA or Hollywood stars) but others not. 
                       
                       

                    • tscharnweber tscharnweber

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 7:15 pm

                      No major loss in the marriage market with these two overripe tools.

                      Everyone single I know early 30s and beyond is frighteningly desperate. Including men. It is sad.

                      These two have taken the red pill obviously following internet jockeys like roosh, rollo, and heartiste. I can see it from their wording plain as day

                      Sad thing is even Roosh, who wrote the Bang series about banging women in various countries is single, late 30s and desperate AF to have a family.

                      He does whiny you tube videos with his ersatz child, a stuffed pug toy, in the background.

                      Basically when you are at the stage in life of these two winners we have in this thread, all of us good women have already been taken and youre left with leftovers. Hence your selection bias.

                      Deal with it.

                    • leann2001nl

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 8:20 pm

                      little bit of truth to both sides. instead of brushing off people with different opinions than you, maybe listen. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 22, 2019 at 8:26 pm

                      The imperfect person looking for the perfect 10 Virgin

                      …. is fng delusional

                    • ranweiss

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 8:57 pm

                      Maybe I’m at a loss, but most of my single friends in their 30’s are pretty lonely and desperate, continuously wasting weekends meeting people from dating apps. Sure, maybe girls more than the guys.
                       
                      I dated and truly enjoyed the freedom of single life throughout my 20’s. I settled down and got married to a really wonderful, beautiful, driven woman at 30. We’ve travelled the world, lived in some awesome places, and genuinely have enjoyed life. The sex life and romance isn’t as robust as when we were first dating, but is still pretty good.
                       
                      The key is we make time to have our separate lives / friends / interests. A lot of my friends who are married let the marriage or children define them as a person. Their entire social life revolves around the spouse and family. Maybe it’s too easy to lose your identity when you’re a busy professional in a marriage with kids. 
                       
                      That being said, different strokes for different folks. Not everyone is built for a marriage or to have children. Totally understandable. I personally am extremely happy with the choices i’ve made. 

                • katiemckee84_223

                  Member
                  February 22, 2019 at 5:12 pm

                  Quote from Re3iRtH

                  The sad truth is, a wife gave her best sex to the alpha dude(s) in her 20s or to the guy that she will ultimately cheat on her husband with before the divorce. Without going too much detail, let’s just say I have pretty robust experience in this regard 😉 As a married man, are you okay knowing this? I have to admit, the church got this idea right.

                   
                  The way things stand, this is the ultimate in red pill, and I will state it here again because it can be even more than flushed out than by re3iRtH’s quick reference. It is most impactfully, and succinctly said:
                   
                  Modern women (of the west) give their peak looks, sexuality, and chastity/innocence/insert virtue to MEN other than their husbands.
                   
                  Yes, there are exceptions. Proving the rule, however. 
                   
                  Think how sad that is. And it explains everything everyone has stated in the thread so far.
                   
                  [b]Having said that[/b], I will give the reasons to marry a [i]quality[/i] woman. I consider a quality woman youthful, fertile, sweet, feminine and a virgin. Anything deviating from this is a step below, and gauged by the suitor or observer.
                   
                  I was raised by such a woman. My parents have been together forever and are still living. They come from a different time, one which was far more wholesome and sane, and that’s why it happened. I know how I was raised, and what raising healthy kids means, so that’s the reason to get married, if it’s the right person.
                   
                  Other side benefits (always there are costs to benefits, it’s a universal) are health, stability, mental and emotional considerations, and common struggle creating maturity in you, her and the family. Since I am devoted to my religious tradition, it makes sense that it being true and having worked out for me, I am convinced it is the best option in a world of risk.
                   
                  I’d like to inspire cultures, communities, and people to do the right thing by example. This makes better nations. These are all reasons why it’s not a particular person’s logical choice to remain in a self centered situation, though that’s not what occurs with everyone. It is difficult to convince someone like me who has worked hard, does very well, and wants a family to marry a girl anywhere near 30. I’d consider it at maybe 32 max, but strictly biologically speaking, it’s not worth doing if you want a large family. And if you don’t, we just go right back to the beginning and say, “Yeah, why would I get married if I don’t want kids and the laws are batshit crazy?”

                • ranweiss

                  Member
                  February 22, 2019 at 8:59 pm

                  Quote from Re3iRtH

                  A marriage lasting more than 7 years is considered a “successful marriage”. So we all know that 50% of marriages end in divorce. So this would mean that 50% of marriages are successful, right? Well let’s break the 50% successful down. The majority of those folks stay married for reasons other than them being happy. Children, “cheaper to keep her”, guilt, fear of divorce, time invested, low self worth, religion, etc. From the data I’ve seen, then number of those who stay married because they’re happy is in the single digits over time. Not great odds.

                  [b]All that aside, I have yet to hear a single benefit to a man for being married, that he can’t get from not being married. The sad truth is, a wife gave her best sex to the alpha dude(s) in her 20s or to the guy that she will ultimately cheat on her husband with before the divorce. Without going too much detail, let’s just say I have pretty robust experience in this regard 😉 As a married man, are you okay knowing this[/b]? I have to admit, the church got this idea right.

                   
                  COOL STORY BRUH! YOU MUST GET SO MUCH TAIL BROSKI…DO YOU GET LAID ALL THE TIME BRUH? ALPHAS UNITE BRO. SOMEONES WIFE CHEATED ON THEM WITH YOU BRO? YOU ARE SO ALPHA BRUHHHH.
                   
                  You are such a tool man. You sound like a contestant on bachelor on paradise, or some MTV dating show from the 90’s. Seriously, chill out on the roid’s you man child.

                  • Unknown Member

                    Deleted User
                    February 22, 2019 at 9:09 pm

                    Pathetic people

                    • ranweiss

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 9:11 pm

                      Sorry if I went overboard with the sarcasm and annoyance Re3iRtH – but your post was just so crude and childish that I wanted to give it an equal response. You’re entitled to your opinion and experiences.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 22, 2019 at 10:17 pm

                      I dont think our marriage laws are perfect, but Im not feeling the whole Oppressed-Men-Revolution stuff.

                      Call me simple, but my understanding of what a good man should be includes being generous to women and children, protective of them when they need it / accept it, sometimes having to shoulder asymmetric burden, and being respectful, certainly not referring to them as bit***es or defining their value in sexual terms, biology or not. My biology might tell me to kick your as* because I can or because I want to take your stuff, but that doesnt mean its the right thing to do.

                      Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but maybe we could talk here as we would talk in person with women present and not get too weird.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      February 22, 2019 at 10:32 pm

                      I am a much happier person as a married Dad of two kids than I ever was as a single guy.  Granted, there is probably nothing more hellish than a bad marriage but when it works it is a great thing to experience in life.  I find most things in life overrated but family life is one thing that has exceeded my expectations on the positive side.

                    • tselvidas_246

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 8:45 am

                      “If I wanted to commit genocide against a population the first thing I would do would be to encourage their women to pursue high debt college degrees in their fertile years while handicapping the men in employment via an affirmative action type program. Then I would push for laws to make birth control free and push TV shows that show how “happy” single 40 year old women are while they pursue imaginary careers in manhattan for womens fashion magazines all while being pursued by high income tall attractive men just like Sex and the City come to think of it.. I would then pass laws that make it insane for any man to marry. I would also then push for open borders of higher fertility populations to finish them off.. This is how I would commit genocide against a group i didnt like”

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 23, 2019 at 8:57 am

                      I dont understand whats all this hatred towards women, their sexuality and their education and work.
                      And whats wrong if a woman chooses to Stay single. You cannot dictate people to act in a way that you prefer or you want them to. Different strokes for different folks.

                      I think the root of a lot of these problems come from loss of control. When we think that we dont have control over a situation, we start to become bitter and attack that condition. Everybody loves power and everybody loves to be in control.

                      And lets be honest, a lot of men especially traditional ones are afraid of womens power.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 23, 2019 at 8:59 am

                      IR27,
                      You ask whether its worse to asault a man or a woman and my response was its worse to assault a woman because on average they are physically less strong. Thats the exact opposite of Darwinism where its not worse to assault somebody who is less stronger.

                    • leann2001nl

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 9:01 am

                      So it’s ok to assault a really strong dude because he’s really strong? Wtf

                      Or its more wrong to assault a small woman than a large one?

                      Nope, same crime. Darwinism has nothing to do with law.

                    • julie.young_645

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 9:08 am

                      And next we’ll be hearing about the Male Patriarchy. 
                       
                      I personally think everyone should rise to their potential, and there should be no impediments in their way. Period. 
                       
                      HOWEVER, there is a price to pay for one’s choice. If one parent (male or female) chooses to stay home and raise lil’ Lord Fauntleroy, there is loss of income (and adult contact), etc. Working ‘hawk jobs at home might improve that, but it still takes away from time with Junior. Conversely, letting the au’ pair raise the progeny has its own costs, especially when the kid starts calling [i]her[/i] “Mommy”.
                       
                      As an aside, I’ve noticed Millennials have become quite consumed in their children, nearly to the point of worship. Might that be some sort of rebound or reaction from the ME ME ME that got us all so independent? 

                    • tscharnweber tscharnweber

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 9:18 am

                      Poland!? LOL

                      Dont these guys know Poland has been infected by feminism and the introduction of the smartphone has destroyed the women there?

                      Where will they find the subservient woman to bear their children outside of wedlock with no security for their sacrifice?

                      Pregnancy and childbirth are indeed the most difficult thing to go through. I would know; I have done it twice. During residency no less bearing my full call responsibility and arranging rotations at the VA and other sites where residents are not really needed. My pregnancies did not inconvenience anyone. I also graduated on time.

                      When you view relationships as transactional you reap what you sow.

                      Hence the reason these guys are leftovers.

                    • aryfa_995

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 9:22 am

                      Some of you guys are lunatics.

                      Also, prenups dont always hold up.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 10:03 am

                      Baby boomer generation is the worst generation in history.  They lived selfish narcissistic lives, getting divorced left and right and raising kids in broken/dysfunctional family units.  The family unit is the basic building block of the fabric of society and the breakdown of this fabric is going to take down the American empire eventually.

                    • julie.young_645

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 10:09 am

                      Quote from yesterdaysnews

                      [b]Baby boomer[/b] generation is the worst generation in history.  They lived selfish narcissistic lives, getting divorced left and right and raising kids in broken/dysfunctional family units.  The family unit is the basic building block of the fabric of society and the breakdown of this fabric is going to take down the American empire eventually.

                       
                      As a Baby Boomer, I believe you mean [b]Millennials and Gen X’ers. [/b]

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 10:35 am

                      I got married late with personal and family assets to protect.
                       
                      No crazy clauses … no effort to avoid common property going forward… my wife is still the beneficiary if I do happen to die.  
                       
                      My attorney described it as an “I love you, but if it does somehow all go horribly wrong …” prenup.
                       
                       
                      (ps — I am happily married going on 10 years now.  I thought at the time of my engagement  that is was unlikely that the contract would ever have to be used.. I’m even more confident of that now.   I think we’re going to make it.   🙂         )

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 23, 2019 at 5:29 pm

                      Quote from Hospital-Rad

                      I dont understand whats all this hatred towards women, their sexuality and their education and work.
                      And whats wrong if a woman chooses to Stay single. You cannot dictate people to act in a way that you prefer or you want them to. Different strokes for different folks.

                      I think the root of a lot of these problems come from loss of control. When we think that we dont have control over a situation, we start to become bitter and attack that condition. Everybody loves power and everybody loves to be in control.

                      And lets be honest, a lot of men especially traditional ones are afraid of womens power.

                      I don’t think that those with more traditional views oppose women in the workforce. Women have worked throughout history, and we know that. But contemporary culture does push women to pursue high-powered careers essentially as a “**** you” to the  so-called patriarchy. Has that made women happier? No. What feminism has done is place the sexes at loggerheads.
                       
                      If I were a woman, I’m pretty sure I’d rather spend my time with my children (assuming my husband made enough money to support that lifestyle) than sit at a desk and stare and black-and-white pictures for nine hours a day or spend twelve-hour days in a corporate office putting up with rich jerks.

                    • rhiannonsmith84

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 6:18 am

                      [link=https://www.auntminnie.com/forum/showprofile.aspx?memid=47931]Re3iRtH[/link]
                      Well, your post reeks of “manosphere” ideology.  I get your sentiments, but the real world is more nuanced.    
                       
                      Nevertheless, I am willing to bet serious money that nearly everyone on here put exponentially more time and effort into reading their employment contracts than into reading their marriage contracts.
                       
                      So here is a great website to educate those who are interested (if you live in Massachusetts, don’t go to this site unless you are willing to move to another state): 
                       
                      [link]http://www.realworlddivorce.com[/link]
                       
                      Enjoy!

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 7:13 am

                      Quote from Dumb Luck

                      Nevertheless, I am willing to bet serious money that nearly everyone on here put exponentially more time and effort into reading their employment contracts than into reading their marriage contracts.

                       
                      Exactly the opposite for me.  I signed up for my radiology job on a handshake and a verbal agreement. Never looked at anything in writing.
                       
                      My pre-nup on the other hand ….

                    • rhiannonsmith84

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 7:32 am

                      Were you able to successfully negotiate a prenup, or if you prefer the legal term, a “separate property regime?” 
                       
                      I would imagine this would be much easier if your spouse is also an professional with a substantial income.    

                    • leann2001nl

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 7:43 am

                      preferentially being nicer to women is sexist. again, why can’t you just be nice to everyone? I don’t get what you’re saying. be nice to everything but a little nicer to women and children. why? treat everyone equally. 
                       
                      the definition of sexism is treating someone different because of their gender. that is literally exactly what you are saying 

                    • Dr_Cocciolillo

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 7:54 am

                      Ive come to the conclusion that pre and post nups are needed. Its simply impossible to tell what midlife crisis or other event your spouse will go through. I have a friend who has completely lost any say in his marriage because the non working spouse went to see a lawyer some time ago and threatened divorce if her conditions are not met. Hard to have a functional marriage where one side controls the financial Armageddon card.

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 9:31 pm

                      Your friend’s life is effectively over. He isn’t living, merely existing. Under the axe of his wife and the state. I am truly sad for him. I hope he turns his life around somehow.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 23, 2019 at 10:15 pm

                      Re3iRth,

                      So when you chat with your colleagues, siblings, and guys at the gym, do you also talk about cheating on other peoples wives, getting virgins, being an alpha dude, being proud if called a douche, and family men being suckers?

                      Or is it just when youre on an anonymous forum?

                      I ask because the financial independence stuff is great and how you did it is interesting conversation, but Ive yet to meet real people who talk like that about women and relationships, only online forum posters e.g. Reddit, where I assume its some kid.

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 10:56 pm

                      I never said I was an “alpha dude”. I also never said people’s wives cheated with me. You made all that up mate. It’s very plausible that those women offered it and I said no.

                      You are missing the point and maybe you should re-read the thoughts of the guys that have contributed to this thread. Most seem to side with the truth and what’s actually going on, although they may not have used the specific language that I did. Very few have attempted to refute my statements, with a lot of men corroborating what I have presented.

                      Some of women and white knights on this thread have use personal attacks and slander on me, even though they don’t know me. I criticize actions and ideas, not specific people. We should ponder why instead of them attempting to refute my statements with logic and facts, they use personal attacks.

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 11:03 pm

                      Let’s talk fairness.

                      If a woman can’t support her children, she gets cash and prizes from the government. If a man can’t support his children, he gets thrown in jail indefinitely.

                      Sound about fair?

                      Flounce I respect your knowledge and do enjoy your posts on this forum, however I suspect that you are in my father’s generation who got married in a different time with different nuances and (very) different women, long before social media. You haven’t woken up to the reality for men (in the West) today.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 23, 2019 at 7:26 am

                      @IR27,
                      in any good relationship, you dont expect tit for tat, certainly not from your spouse.

                      As Akoman said above, there is a sense of purpose and satisfaction in giving to those you love. If you dont know what this feels like, just ask your mom.

                      As for my comment about feeling generous to and protective of women and children, I wasnt referring only to your wife and kids, and I dont mean that you shouldnt be generous to men.

                      I meant looking out a little more for women and children than men, and not so that I can get something in return from them.

                      Generous means that you are okay giving more than you get. You cant be generous while wondering when and how they will pay you back for it.

                      Being nice to women and children is not sexist, its just being decent.

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 9:09 pm

                      Great exchanges here.

                      I’m glad to see the reaction I got from some of the married men from my somewhat controversial post. The truth hurts boys, doesn’t it?

                      If someone calls me an a-hole or douche, I take that as a compliment. Truly. Since these are the guys that women fall for and are always top of mind for them. Douches and a-holes become very powerful men. Ever hear of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Donald Trump?

                      rads – crude and childish yes, that can still co-exist with true 🙂 Like you said, we all draw our own conclusions. Glad you are happy!

                      I’m the happiest guy I know in my thirties, and I know/work with a lot of married men. I don’t buy for a second that successful men in their 30s are unhappy. Take the cohort of successful women in their forties who are single. Boy oh boy, now that’s some serious evenings with wine, Netflix, and cats.

                      Young men are waking up to this every day and no matter the efforts of guys (this whole time I really thought you were a woman, being honest) like kpack, marriage is plummeting because men are opting out.

                    • ranweiss

                      Member
                      February 23, 2019 at 11:18 pm

                      Quote from Re3iRtH

                      Great exchanges here.

                      I’m glad to see the reaction I got from some of the married men from my somewhat controversial post. The truth hurts boys, doesn’t it?

                      [b]If someone calls me an a-hole or douche, I take that as a compliment. Truly. Since these are the guys that women fall for and are always top of mind for them. Douches and a-holes become very powerful men. Ever hear of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Donald Trump? [/b]

                      rads – crude and childish yes, that can still co-exist with true 🙂 Like you said, we all draw our own conclusions. Glad you are happy!

                      I’m the happiest guy I know in my thirties, and I know/work with a lot of married men. I don’t buy for a second that successful men in their 30s are unhappy. Take the cohort of successful women in their forties who are single. Boy oh boy, now that’s some serious evenings with wine, Netflix, and cats.

                      Young men are waking up to this every day and no matter the efforts of guys (this whole time I really thought you were a woman, being honest) like kpack, marriage is plummeting because men are opting out.

                       
                       
                      You sound like someone who got beat up in high school a lot, never got laid, then ended up getting hooked on some internet Milos Yiannapolous BS etc ( let me guess, did you read ‘the pick up artist’ )  to justify his lackluster dating life in his youth. From your continuous mention of the ‘western’ woman – i’m betting big bucks you are eastern european or asian in descent (just my experience). Also, you probably drove a honda civic with a after market exhaust and stickers on it at some point. 
                       
                      That being said, i’m glad you’re happy. But to me, a guy that has to denote himself as an ‘alpha’, talks down to others, and embraces arnold schwarzenegger (lol are you f’ng serious ) as a role model, is anything but , an alpha. If you were, you wouldn’t have to be proving it to us married dudes. The concept of being single in your 30’s and chasing tail isn’t new. *news flash*  – in this age group, women don’t really care about how cool you are. It’s not high school or college. They care about one thing : $.
                       
                      *** GUESS WHAT, the other dorky ass radiologists driving the M3/911/tesla and rocking the (let me guess) rolex submariner and burberry polo are probably getting laid just as much as you amigo. It’s not because you’re an alpha.*** 
                       
                      That’s why you see dweeby doctors/lawyers/bankers with attractive girlfriends or wives all the time. 
                       
                      for what it’s worth, had a staycation with my wife this weekend, we got bombed on martinis, ordered room service, and slept for 14 hours. Spending tomorrow with her and my son taking him to his first swim class – then having dinner with my folks and brothers. 
                       
                      I can honestly say I don’t miss my days ordering bottle service and hitting on girls at the club/bar or whatever. But, like I said earlier, everyone is different – There are always those guys in their late 30’s/40’s at the club, way way way out of place, trying to pick up some girls. It’s kind of pathetic and weird, but maybe that’s your scene. 
                       
                      Yeah, you’re an alpha. I’m sure. [8|]
                       

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 12:50 am

                      Your predictive capabilities are waay off dude. If you were so happy with your decision, why do you keep justifying it to us? All of the activities you are doing with your wife, any single guy can do just the same and more. Without any of the potential downside and legal ramifications. It’s like “hey, I have 20% of the options as a single guy!” Are you really bragging about this? Come on! We aren’t fooled.

                      As the other guys brought up several examples, if your wife changes in 10 years, you have to do what she says (if you don’t already), or your unfortunately – screwed.

                      For your information, I don’t need to buy a woman’s love. I drive a plain car and wear plain clothes. I just use mind and personality. Works very well. Not a flashy or spendy guy at all (I was in my 20s though). Women in the U.S. are so easy these days, it’s frankly not an interesting topic to discuss. I’ll rather talk about meditation or language learning.

                    • mariana.gonzalez_122

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 2:05 am

                       Its a reddit thread now.  Its like the Godwins law of auntminnie, discussion goes along usefully until jackass shows up to proclaim the nerds have inherited the earth and are too stupid to take advantage of it and cast off the shackles of monogamy.  I know that by typing this a warm feeling of self satisfaction will bloom in his chest, as he rechecks his tinder feed for amazing virgin sexscapades.  And no tattoos!  What a tool.   
                       
                      We met in a chat room, now our love can fully bloom… Sure the world wide web is great, but you, you make me salivate… 
                       
                      Don’t worry ReBurth, I’m sure there’s a babe out there for you too. Peace out.

                    • francomejiamurillo_751

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 4:03 pm

                      Quote from rads312

                       i’m betting big bucks you are eastern european or asian in descent (just my experience). Also, you probably drove a honda civic with a after market exhaust and stickers on it at some point. 

                       
                      Whoa now…[:-] lets not start assuming or stereotyping certain ethnicities…
                       
                       We should probably pivot this conversation before this leads down a more toxic path.  

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 4:11 pm

                       We should probably pivot this conversation before this leads down a more toxic path.   

                       
                      I tried

                    • Melenas

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 5:30 pm

                      ok well, I think I’ll try to steer things back. 
                       
                      I think the daily grind is pretty hard. Those who say, ‘find a job where it isn’t a grind.”, can you all point to some groups? I’m still not convince that there are groups/practices out there where it isn’t a sweatshop model. 
                       
                      Where are these ‘lifestyle’ groups? Anyone brave enough to actually mention specific groups where lifestyle is put above trying to max out on profit? 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 5:38 pm

                      Quote from peehdee

                      ok well, I think I’ll try to steer things back. 

                      I think the daily grind is pretty hard. Those who say, ‘find a job where it isn’t a grind.”, can you all point to some groups? I’m still not convince that there are groups/practices out there where it isn’t a sweatshop model. 

                      Where are these ‘lifestyle’ groups? Anyone brave enough to actually mention specific groups where lifestyle is put above trying to max out on profit? 

                       
                      Yeah it’s called the VA.  Multiple NTP jobs posted on ACR jobs in cities some here would consider desirable (not me, though) and they pay mid to high 3s.  It’s completely telerad so no procedures or techs to deal with.

                    • ranweiss

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 9:07 pm

                      Quote from Theforce111

                      Quote from rads312

                      i’m betting big bucks you are eastern european or asian in descent (just my experience). Also, you probably drove a honda civic with a after market exhaust and stickers on it at some point. 

                      Whoa now…[:-] lets not start assuming or stereotyping certain ethnicities…

                      We should probably pivot this conversation before this leads down a more toxic path.  

                       
                      Sorry, wasn’t trying to be racist. I’m of asian – ish heritage myself and it was just a stereotype that i grew up with. ‘alpha’ guys with ‘souped’ up cars chasing girls. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 4:26 am

                      Whatever. 
                      I just hope you can understand that your plan to have children and then abandon them makes victims out of them. I hope you have enough humanity not to do this.
                       
                       

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 6:02 am

                      Hahahahaha

                      Meanwhile the poor slug is posting on a radiology internet site late into a Saturday night about how happy he is and how wonderful he is

                      One hand on the keyboard and one hand do other things to himself

                      Poor SOB

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 2:45 pm

                      Folks,
                       
                      The solution to the daily grand (which I can certainly empathize with) is to put up with the day to day BS until you’ve saved enough that you don’t have to work again.
                       
                      At that point, it is TRULY YOUR CHOICE whether you want to suffer the daily grind.
                       
                      And how much is that.  I recommend:
                       
                      30-40 times you annual living expenses after you take out spending for the kids (their colleges, upbringings, etc.)
                       
                      So, if you can get by on 60K (average American family income), once you’ve saved 1.8 to 2.4M in a nest egg, you can walk out.
                       
                      Anyone disagree with my analysis ?

                    • g.giancaspro_108

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 2:49 pm

                      Is that 30-40x your annual expenses pre or post tax? That is, inclusive of tax or excluding tax?

                    • g.giancaspro_108

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 2:52 pm

                      Lets say ones annual living expenses are $100k.
                      Would they want 30-40x of $100k or $150k?

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 2:57 pm

                      Speaking of the daily grind:  I read 47 plain films of the wrist this morning … in a row!
                       
                      I’ve done 265 plain films today.  Gonna head back to the PACS station and plug through a few more.

                    • g.giancaspro_108

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 3:14 pm

                      Youre a machine. And its only, well, whatever time it is in your time zone. Its not late.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 3:36 pm

                      Sandeep,
                       
                      It’s pre tax
                       
                      So let’s say you have a 2M nest egg earning you 5% return a year.  That’s a 100K return a year.  After taxes if you have 60-80K or so and can live on it, you should be OK.
                       
                      And can do that indefinitely.
                       
                      I recommend being able to get to the stage where you can walk out – but to keep working nonetheless.  
                       
                      Work keeps your mind engaged and active.
                       
                      But on the other hand, it’s always nice to know you can head for the door anytime you want  – and it’s nice knowing you can push back against your hospital admin. without taking crap.
                       
                      It’s easy to get pushed around when people think you’re sconomically dependent on them with no way out.
                       
                      So, you need to work hard and save hard to create that way out.
                       
                       

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 26, 2019 at 9:59 am

                      Quote from SadRad

                      Sandeep,

                      It’s pre tax

                      So let’s say you have a 2M nest egg earning you 5% return a year.  That’s a 100K return a year.  After taxes if you have 60-80K or so and can live on it, you should be OK.

                      And can do that indefinitely.

                      I recommend being able to get to the stage where you can walk out – but to keep working nonetheless.  

                      Work keeps your mind engaged and active.

                      But on the other hand, it’s always nice to know you can head for the door anytime you want  – and it’s nice knowing you can push back against your hospital admin. without taking crap.

                      It’s easy to get pushed around when people think you’re sconomically dependent on them with no way out.

                      So, you need to work hard and save hard to create that way out.

                      Where are you going to get 5%?
                       
                      Right now that is only equity.
                       
                      Equity in the golden years is risky.
                       
                      Equity is for building wealth, not during the spending phase.
                       
                      Time diversification puzzle.
                       
                      [attachment=0]

                    • g.giancaspro_108

                      Member
                      February 26, 2019 at 10:09 am

                      Is anyone realistically going to go fully into bonds/fixed income during their retirement years? Or at least early in retirement? If we see a return of 15% CD rates perhaps, but otherwise it seems inappropriate.

                    • ruszja

                      Member
                      February 26, 2019 at 10:30 am

                      Quote from sandeep panga

                      Is anyone realistically going to go fully into bonds/fixed income during their retirement years? Or at least early in retirement? If we see a return of 15% CD rates perhaps, but otherwise it seems inappropriate.

                      15% CD rates travel in the company of 12% inflation.
                      That’ll be a good time to own some real estate and Ag land as part of your portfolio.

                      ….and Bitcoin 😉

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      March 5, 2019 at 1:38 pm

                      Quote from sandeep panga

                      Is anyone realistically going to go fully into bonds/fixed income during their retirement years? Or at least early in retirement? If we see a return of 15% CD rates perhaps, but otherwise it seems inappropriate.

                      Zve Brodie advocates an all TIPS portfolio for retired folks. 
                       
                      Let’s go Full Brodie?

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 26, 2019 at 10:18 am

                      Equity in the golden years is risky. 
                        
                      Equity is for building wealth, not during the spending phase. 
                        
                      Time diversification puzzle.

                       
                      This is a really tough question to get at.   Which is a greater risk in retirement, inflation or volatility?
                       
                      The old “your age as a percentage of bonds” asset allocation is a classic.  But even Jack Bogle came around to holding 50-60% of his portfolio in equities later in his life.
                       
                       
                      (Full disclosure, I tend to run high high …. probably too high … on the percentage equities in my portfolio.  So does my dad.  He’s in his mid 80s and still has over 50% stock … he got dinged during the crash in 2008, but got the equivalent of 4-5 more years of spending out of this most recent rally).
                       
                       

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 26, 2019 at 10:49 am

                      Quote from dergon

                      Equity in the golden years is risky. 
                       
                      Equity is for building wealth, not during the spending phase. 
                       
                      Time diversification puzzle.

                      This is a really tough question to get at.   Which is a greater risk in retirement, inflation or volatility?

                      The old “your age as a percentage of bonds” asset allocation is a classic.  But even Jack Bogle came around to holding 50-60% of his portfolio in equities later in his life.

                      (Full disclosure, I tend to run high high …. probably too high … on the percentage equities in my portfolio.  So does my dad.  He’s in his mid 80s and still has over 50% stock … he got dinged during the crash in 2008, but got the equivalent of 4-5 more years of spending out of this most recent rally).

                      Bogle didn’t have to spend down his portfolio. He was worth 80 million or so.
                      You only get caught in a long bear when you have to spend down your portfolio for living expenses.
                      Think about it as forced selling at fire sale prices.
                      I don’t see how your father is a counterexample.
                       
                      Future US equity returns may not be like the past. Look at other countries as posted above.

                    • ljohnson_509

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 3:38 pm

                      Why would you tolerate a work environment where your reading 265+ plain films a day? Especially for lower than pp pay? This seems abusive. Where is the money going (rhetorical ?).

                      Why are doctors proud to be abused while most other workers arent? I dont get it. I see this type of understaffing all over the place and once the suits are in control, theres not much you can do. They squeeze you, until you cant. You can leave but theyll be another sucker there fairly fast (but getting harder with better market now, thank god).

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 3:42 pm

                      I’m doing internal moonlighting 🙂  

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 6:09 pm

                      4% annual withdrawal ON AVERAGE will last for a long time without touching the principal. So if you have 4 mil saving you should be able to take 160K per year. You probably pay 40K tax on that depending on the stathe that you live. Do the math.

                      If you have 3-4 Mil in savings, the best strategy is to work at the VA or some part time job.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 6:25 pm

                      I know we have to put this topic to rest.

                      But I am surprised by the number of responses to Re3iRth’s posts ( I disagreed with most of them). But When I see that people become so defensive and emotional about his posts, it makes me think that there may be at least some touch of truth in what he says or probably people are not as satisfied as they claim.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 6:34 pm

                      Yes everyone has 2% body fat

                      Retires at 33

                      And is the most desirable male on the planet

                      Yes we are all jealous and he is definitely telling the truth

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 6:57 pm

                      Dergon, do you only read plain films on this gig? The number is eye popping but it sounds doable as a moonlighting gig.

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 8:56 pm

                      Quote from rayZor

                      Dergon, do you only read plain films on this gig? The number is eye popping but it sounds doable as a moonlighting gig.

                       
                      Nothing but msk plain film. Ortho pre-op, post-op, outpatient pain.  It’s very much in my “efficiency” wheel house.
                       
                      Of the cases I read today I would classify 3 as interesting…. one bisphosphonate stresser in the lateral femur, a case of klippel-feil with a sprengel , and a paget’s at L2.
                       
                      Only a few of the total required digging in to the record at all (checking old studies for whether a couple of vcfs were chronic or acute … seeing if a guy had had a previous osteotomy ) … and a couple required critical results notification (all of which I did electronically)/
                       
                      I read one MRI knee b/c one of our orthopds happened to call.
                       
                      I worked from home and had a decent day while also reading lots of studies.  I didn’t in any way feel that the volume was out of control. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 9:05 pm

                      I@Dergon,
                      I’m a fellow msk guy and that sounds like something I’d do in a heartbeat to make extra dough on an otherwise lazy weekend.

                      People freak out when they hear raw numbers of studies but when you look into the context, eg. subspecialty, efficient reading environment and relative ease of cases it’s not too bad.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 25, 2019 at 11:40 am

                      Quote from rayZor

                      I@Dergon,
                      I’m a fellow msk guy and that sounds like something I’d do in a heartbeat to make extra dough on an otherwise lazy weekend.

                      People freak out when they hear raw numbers of studies but when you look into the context, eg. subspecialty, efficient reading environment and relative ease of cases it’s not too bad.

                       
                      Yes, I agree. Its’ good to stress that efficiency of the reading environment is key. How fast is your PACS, how often does it break down, how fast does your voice recognition program work, do you have assistants who can take phone calls for you.
                       
                      Also, the way you generate a report is also key. For MSK plain films, repeating what you say in the body of the report in the impression basically duplicates the amount of time you spend on each study, since what you see in the body is the same as what the impression should be. This is unlike cross-sectional studies, where the body of the report includes many more findings that don’t belong in the impression. Do referring doctors prefer a long report for plain films, or do they just skip to the impression?  I know that I almost never read the body of the report but skip to the Impression.
                       
                      Dergon, as a MSK radiologist who can read 265 xrays in a day without apparently breaking a sweat, what is your way of maximizing the efficiency of dictating MSK plain films?  Thank you for your advice.

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      March 3, 2019 at 5:54 pm

                       

                      Quote from rayZor

                       

                      I@Dergon, 
                      I’m a fellow msk guy and that sounds like something I’d do in a heartbeat to make extra dough on an otherwise lazy weekend. 

                       
                       
                      Anyway. Just logged off at 7pm finishing up my back-to-weekend call weekends with lots of extra reading heaped on top.   Now at the end of the second hard working week for extra $$ I admit to being a bit burnt.
                       
                       
                      But …. Mrs_dergon and I fly out to Aspen/Snowmass on Friday for a bit of R&R! 
                       
                      And I’m not on call again until April 🙂

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      March 3, 2019 at 9:21 pm

                      Enjoy! Well deserved.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      March 4, 2019 at 7:29 am

                      Thanks for your answer, Dergon. Fellows help a lot. I guess that’s the answer.  Enjoy your vacation!

                    • mariana.gonzalez_122

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 9:05 pm

                      Whats the pay for one xray? If you don’t want to say, what would others do it for? I am guessing 7 per as a floor and 12 as a ceiling as that is probably a loss to practice and just to clean them up. Thank god the discussion returned to reality. Good work dergon

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 10:33 pm

                      Quote from touchingcotton

                      Whats the pay for one xray? If you don’t want to say, what would others do it for? I am guessing 7 per as a floor and 12 as a ceiling as that is probably a loss to practice and just to clean them up. Thank god the discussion returned to reality. Good work dergon

                       
                      MSK radiographs are about 0.16 wRVU a piece or so.  $12 for one of those would be great.  I’m glad there are people that enjoy MSK as I would go crazy having to read over 100 in a day on a regular basis…it’s just not my thing.

                    • emily.perry_477

                      Member
                      February 24, 2019 at 11:02 pm

                      There is no such thing as a GUARANTEED 5% return.  Highly likely as a annualized rate over several years with a fixed income skewed portfolio ?  Yes.  
                       
                      The distinction between a retirement account (401k/profit sharing,…) and a cash investment in this discussion is becoming trivial, in my opinion.  59 year old person is becoming younger and younger these days.  Although I can, i don’t see my self quit before 55.  Even if you desire to do so, As most point out, with a part time or easy VA job, one can spend every penny he/she makes until 59 kicks in.  The whole point is that you should not touch any of it (retirement or cash) until you retire 100%.

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 25, 2019 at 4:55 am

                      Quote from touchingcotton

                      Whats the pay for one xray? If you don’t want to say, what would others do it for? I am guessing 7 per as a floor and 12 as a ceiling as that is probably a loss to practice and just to clean them up. Thank god the discussion returned to reality. Good work dergon

                       

                      MSK radiographs are about 0.16 wRVU a piece or so.  $12 for one of those would be great.  I’m glad there are people that enjoy MSK as I would go crazy having to read over 100 in a day on a regular basis…it’s just not my thing.

                      In that range.
                       
                       
                      We get paid by “blocks” of films (which theoretically is about an hour of work … which is about right for the average reader in our group.)  The pay is structured to be just slightly cheaper than if we farmed it all out to our telerad group ….. but since there is no “middle man” the radiology par per click comes out higher than if we were telerad employees.
                       
                       
                      The source of the  problem is that we are as employees living in compensation model that is very heavily RVU weighted.  At the same time we are significantly under-staffed.  
                       
                      So what  happens is that the low RVU work backs up throughout the week. People are incentivized to do the higher RVU work to make sure their salary and bonus stay up.  They focus on the STAT list too b/c that is focused on and messaged by leadership.
                       
                      So by the end of the there’s a big pile of non-STAT low RVU plain films and a not-quite-as-big pile of staging CTs etc.
                       
                      The unread list of PFs was nearing a thousand when I logged in early sunday am.
                       
                      I view the internal moonlighting program as essentially a way to re-weight RVUs but in a backdoor manner.

                      Quote from rayZor

                      I@Dergon,
                      I’m a fellow msk guy and that sounds like something I’d do in a heartbeat to make extra dough on an otherwise lazy weekend.

                      People freak out when they hear raw numbers of studies but when you look into the context, eg. subspecialty, efficient reading environment and relative ease of cases it’s not too bad.

                       
                      Yeah. You get it.  The numbers sound big but I swear it’s not a dangerous or even exhausting pace.
                       
                      (mrs_dergon and I just purchased an expensive property … so I’m looking for extra cash for the next couple of years.  And on a gray Cleveland February day with 50+ mph winds, staying in a making some cash seemed just like a fine idea 🙂  )
                       
                       
                       

                    • ruszja

                      Member
                      February 25, 2019 at 5:19 am

                      How did we end up resurrecting an 8 year old trollfest ?

                    • ljohnson_509

                      Member
                      February 25, 2019 at 6:07 am

                      Its sequence of returns that kills the portfolio. Some bad years early will kill your portfolio regardless of what the overall return is during your retirement. Hence the 4% safe rate of withdrawal. Some say less now because of high stock valuations and low bond yields.

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 25, 2019 at 6:27 am

                      Quote from Drrad123

                      Its sequence of returns that kills the portfolio. Some bad years early will kill your portfolio regardless of what the overall return is during your retirement. Hence the 4% safe rate of withdrawal. Some say less now because of high stock valuations and low bond yields.

                      I’m personally working with a 3% withdraw/yr as my target.     Just being a bit more conservative.   (And I have a younger wife… so I miss the number of years of comfortable retirement to the low side she could really be hurting after my death)

                    • Count Contrastula

                      Member
                      February 25, 2019 at 7:56 am

                      3% withdrawal rate? Leave your kids rich?What a stupid plan. Im planning on more like 7/8%. I want some spend down. Not waiting to have ten million to retire because I cant do it without denying myself until Im 70 lol. Your best years are 40/50s Dont waste them hoarding so you can be a rich old man(person).

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      February 25, 2019 at 8:43 am

                      Quote from Cabinfever

                      3% withdrawal rate? Leave your kids rich?What a stupid plan. Im planning on more like 7/8%. I want some spend down. Not waiting to have ten million to retire because I cant do it without denying myself until Im 70 lol. Your best years are 40/50s Dont waste them hoarding so you can be a rich old man(person).

                      So if I figure I’m out at age 60 that makes mrs_dergon 49 years old.   There is a very good chance she has a 40-50 year retirement cash need.
                       
                      If I get lucky and don’t hit a bear market within the first few years of my retirement I might be able to increase my annual withdraw percentage.  But I’m planning a bit more conservatively for now.  

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      March 5, 2019 at 11:03 am

                      Quote from Cabinfever

                      3% withdrawal rate? Leave your kids rich?What a stupid plan. Im planning on more like 7/8%. I want some spend down. Not waiting to have ten million to retire because I cant do it without denying myself until Im 70 lol. Your best years are 40/50s Dont waste them hoarding so you can be a rich old man(person).

                       
                      Then don’t be in equities during the spend down.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 7:05 pm

                      Quote from Hospital-Rad

                      4% annual withdrawal ON AVERAGE will last for a long time without touching the principal. So if you have 4 mil saving you should be able to take 160K per year. You probably pay 40K tax on that depending on the stathe that you live. Do the math.

                      If you have 3-4 Mil in savings, the best strategy is to work at the VA or some part time job.

                       
                      The interest alone on 4mm would provide a very comfortable life.  No need to work any MD job as that would introduce liability (yes even VA as it has happened rarely).

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 7:35 pm

                      The truth can sometimes make people upset, but not all that upsets people is the truth. That should be obvious.

                      Upsetting people is neither a sensitive nor specific feature of the truth, otherwise our current President would be one of the most truthful in our countrys history.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 7:41 pm

                      If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.

                      There are WMDs in Iraq.

                      I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

                      Read my lips, no new taxes.

                      There is nothing new under the sun, I am getting old and we just went political! :).

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 8:02 pm

                      Agree with Flounce and radgrinder. Many of the posts in question are very blatantly mysoginistic. They upset people because they are insulting and pompous, not because there is truth in them. If his posts were blatantly racist and people argued with him would we then rationalize that those arguing with him were doing so because his statements were true? I certainly would not. I would say it was because his statements are divisive and harmful.

                      But I am glad that the topic is shifting. I certainly feel that when I reach 3-4 mill in todays dollars I will work less. You do need to factor in however where that money is held. If it is all in retirement accounts that doesnt give you freedom until age 59.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 24, 2019 at 8:09 pm

                      @Spaceman,

                      If it is in your retirement account and you reach that level of saving before age of 59, then you can stop saving. Just make equal or a little more than your expenses (doable with a part time job unless you have a luxurious life) and spend it all. You have enough saving for your retirement. You can work less (some per diem here and there) after 59 and use 3-4% withdrawal money.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      February 25, 2019 at 4:02 am

                      Quote from SadRad

                      Folks,

                      The solution to the daily grand (which I can certainly empathize with) is to put up with the day to day BS until you’ve saved enough that you don’t have to work again.

                      At that point, it is TRULY YOUR CHOICE whether you want to suffer the daily grind.

                      And how much is that.  I recommend:

                      30-40 times you annual living expenses after you take out spending for the kids (their colleges, upbringings, etc.)

                      So, if you can get by on 60K (average American family income), once you’ve saved 1.8 to 2.4M in a nest egg, you can walk out.

                      Anyone disagree with my analysis ?

                       
                      I do not entirely agree. 
                      The questions of “how much do I need to retire” has been researched extensively. The answer goes by the name of Modern Portfolio Theory, if you want to google it.
                       
                      The answer is you can withdraw about 4 to 5% of your nestegg without running out of money. That is, you need 20-25 times your annual draw. 
                      This does not, of course, account for taxes. So, I have two sections of my spreadsheets, one on which capital gains tax only is due, one which will be taxed as ordinary income. To understand fully how much you can draw, you can get your “grand total” by multiplying the first by .85, and the second by about .64 which will give you the approximate amount of after tax money you have to draw on.
                       
                      To do this properly, you must know how much you spend yearly, so I have for years kept track of this, and it is strangely constant for us. 
                       
                      Now, there are some wrinkles. The “safe” withdrawal amount is predicated on the assumption that the great depression is the worst financial situation you will experience. If you want to guess that you will not experience something so dire, then you can decide to draw more. Our financial guys tell us with 5.5% up to about 7%, we should be fine. 
                      That is one wrinkle, here is another. 
                      I did my own simulations of “what if”. To do this, you get data for the annual appreciation of the markets. There is data extending back into the 1910’s. You can get it for the S&P 500, Dow, and the bond markets. You assume you have a proportionate mix of stocks and bonds parked in, say, an index fund. (you can adjust the proportion as you please.)   You can then pretend to start your retirement any year… 1910, 1950, or if you want to really test it, in 1929 just before the depression, exposing your savings to the losses of the depression.
                      As I was doing my own simulations on my spreadsheet, I noticed this:  If I started my retirement in september of 1929, a 4% withdrawal of the INITIAL amount would result in survival of the fund. Just barely. Starting anywhere else, 4% withdrawal was so conservative that it resulted in dramatic increases in the funds out 15 -20 years. My question became “why would you restrict yourself to a draw of 4% of what you had in 2010, when in 2030, you have doubled. your money (or thereabouts, don’t remember the exact numbers). Why wouldn’t you draw 4 or 4.5% of what you have at the outset of the current year? It is as if you were saying “Well, I drew 40K on the 1m I had in the bank last year, and now it is 1.2m. What if I just tell myself that THIS year is the first year of retirement and take 4% of 1.2m??
                      This wasn’t the way the originators of the idea conceived it, but in my backtesting, this works just fine, and results in a nice increase in your draw through time. Another way to work it is to draw 4% of either your current balance, or the initial balance, whichever is more. 
                      When you think about it, this is really no different than what our financial advisors told us – draw 5 to 7% should be fine. They also told us in their experience, if people ran into some trouble, they naturally adjusted down. No one really runs out of money. 
                      Also, you will read in some retirement planners to plan on only 60-85% of your pre retirement spending. You have to know yourself. Fo my part, I now when I retire, I will not reduce my spending, it will increase some. But then, as I get older, I will probably spend less. Less travel, less new furniture, etc. 
                       
                       
                       
                       

                    • Riquelme10

                      Member
                      August 11, 2019 at 10:31 pm

                      One thing, this is a public forum, and presumably there are women who access it. The users are making broad assumptions that the only users are male, as their comments are likely either amusing or frightening to female audiences.
                      Some of these comments are misogynistic and immature. Whether your disappointment and anger with the opposite sex is justified I cant say, but one thing I can say. Your anger is negatively affecting you.
                      True, marriage is a lottery and you might eventually realize that your partner simply cant or wont give you happiness. People dont change not much anyway and our personalities will be what they are. So young folks.. assess your personality type and rationally analyze what you need and look for that

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      August 11, 2019 at 11:34 pm

                      If you are implying that caring about the lives of men, or that men’s rights should also be considered is ‘misogynistic’, you are not only incorrect, but really misguided.

                      Throwing around words like racist / misogynistic / sexist without bothering to look up the definition reminds me of a 2016 Hillary Clinton rally.

                      Don’t assume someone is angry, based on text on the internet no less. A perfectly content person is allowed to care about and discuss the world’s issues. In fact, since they have their own happiness figured out, they have more time to do so 🙂

                    • tselvidas_246

                      Member
                      August 12, 2019 at 12:10 am

                      Is this thread a joke? Guys do your passion, love radiology or find something else. An extra two weeks vacation or extra 100k 15 years from now will not make that much difference to your overall happiness. Having satisfaction and meaning with your work will.  The happiest physicians btw are pediatricians–the lowest paid.

                    • Riquelme10

                      Member
                      August 12, 2019 at 12:12 am

                      Fair enough, Ill acknowledge mens rights are important in a legal context especially. Courts are very unfair to men in family law.
                      But I believe that the comments emphasizing a womans virginal attributes about all other qualities can properly be described as misogynistic. Lol

                    • katiemckee84_223

                      Member
                      August 12, 2019 at 9:55 am

                      Quote from k space invader

                      Fair enough, Ill acknowledge mens rights are important in a legal context especially. Courts are very unfair to men in family law.
                      But I believe that the comments emphasizing a womans virginal attributes about all other qualities can properly be described as misogynistic. Lol

                       
                      Did you ever take biology or evolutionary biology? Ever study history? I’m starting to think people who use the word misogynistic have paid no attention to human life for 10,000 years before the 1960s.

                  • Unknown Member

                    Deleted User
                    February 22, 2019 at 9:12 pm

                    lol.
                    Agree with many points that rads312 made.

                    Most single people in 30s especially girls have a desperate life. At least that was the case till 10-20 years ago.

                    Having said that, it seems that some of these things are changing rapidly. I see bunch of single people in 30s especially highly educated overs especially due to increasing years of education compared to the past. Also there are more and more divorces and there are more available people in 30s even without children. Thanks to infertility treatments many people can have children later in life.

                    The moral of my story is that if you are in your mid-late 30s don’t listen to bunch of sexist internet BS about depreciation of women and etc. Look around and you have a somehow good chamce of finding a quality man or woman in your age range to start a family with. I know a handful of good guys and girls in their 30s who are desperately looking for a soulmate.

                  • francomejiamurillo_751

                    Member
                    February 22, 2019 at 9:18 pm

                     Yes, Marriage is difficult but it’s one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.  It’s wonderful having companionship, intimacy, and someone who truly loves and cares about me.  

      • jeevonbenning_648

        Member
        February 23, 2019 at 9:12 pm

        “Misery likes Companion”

        Great point.

  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    February 22, 2019 at 5:06 pm

    Grandiose sense of self importance, requires constant admiration, sense of entitlement, demeans others? Rebirth is hewing darn close to an axis II diagnosis.

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