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Scottish Independence
[link=http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/03/05/286126493/independent-scotland-heres-a-primer-on-upcoming-secession-vote]http://www.npr.org/blogs/…pcoming-secession-vote[/link]
[h1]Will Scotland Go Independent? A Primer On The Secession Vote[/h1]
I’ve been following the politics around the secession vote with some interest. As an American of Scottish descent (Scots-Irish more accurately) I tend to lean emotionally toward an independent Scotland.
Polls have been running against independence for the last year but the “Yes” campaign has seen a recent boost. And with the peak of nationalism coming with this Summer’s celebration of the 700th anniversary of Scottish Independence ( the last battle scene in [i]Braveheart[/i] at Bannockburn in 1314 for those of you not studied in Scottish history), the “yes” coalition may have timed the vote perfectly.
The referendum vote is September 18. I’ll be heading to the ISS Congress in Edinburgh in October 2014. Who knows..I might be visiting a newly formed nation!
[b]Alba gu bràth![/b]
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95 Replies
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An all around dumb idea.
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My thoughts exactly. as dumb as Quebec wanting to separate
The average joe will suffer
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Go Independent. Plenty of Scot-Irish here in SC. Not much, if anything said about it.
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If they do, don’t they lose the access to the pound? Wonder what happens to their economy. It seems odd they would be celebrating the 700th year of Independence and not be independent.
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Didn’t some people say independence from GB was dumb in 1776 too?
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In both cases they would loose incredible economic clout.
The Scottish proposal doesn’t even have the issue of the currency ironed out yet
In the Quebec case the would also loose a huge portion of land as the local indian bands want to stay with the federal government.
Its about someone wanting to be King at the expense of working class.
Both will fail
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
If they do, don’t they lose the access to the pound? Wonder what happens to their economy.
There have been arguments made both pro/con on the economic side. The UK is dominated by London financial by far. But there are definitely arguments to be made that an independent Scotland would be economically healthy.
[link=http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/27/independent-scottish-economy-viable-slow-first-standard-poors]http://www.theguardian.co…w-first-standard-poors[/link]
An independent [link=http://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland]Scotland[/link] would be a wealthy and financially viable country like New Zealand, but could suffer initial growing pains, according to credit ratings agency Standard & Poor’s.
In a boost to [link=http://www.theguardian.com/politics/alexsalmond]Alex Salmond[/link]’s push for a split with the UK, S&P said the Scottish economy was capable of gaining recognition from the international investment community even if it fails to retain the pound and has to issue its own currency.
It added that a decision by Scottish banks and fund managers to quit Edinburgh, while painful initially in terms of jobs and tax receipts, could benefit a newly independent Scotland by reducing its exposure to a volatile industry that has suffered badly since the 2008 banking crash.
The report by S&P on an independent Scotland’s creditworthiness said that growth could be slow in the early years as some financial businesses relocate to London and investors push up borrowing rates on Holyrood’s debts.
“Nevertheless, with a GDP (including North Sea oil output) only slightly below that of New Zealand, a developed economy and developed financial system, there is no fundamental reason why Scotland could not successfully float a currency.”
S&P dismissed concerns that Scotland would be overdependent on North Sea oil, which it said accounted for 16% of GDP, well below the 25% mark it sets for sectors to rank as dominant.
The issue of whether they go off the pound is complicated. There has been even talk of euro, or staying with Sterling (although they would have no control over their own monetary policy then), or keeping the Scottish pound and pinning it to Sterling.
It seems odd they would be celebrating the 700th year of Independence and not be independent.
Scotland won its independence through battle in 1314. They lost it through royal succession 300 years later. Jame VI of Scotland, son of Mary Queen of Scots, ascended to English throne as James I of England in 1603 after the death of the childless Queen Elizabeth I. What the English couldn’t win by force they won by the luck of royal succession.
James essentially abandoned Scotland – he only returned once after taking the throne in London – and Scotland has been a part of the Union ever since.-
so it’s not really 700 years of independence. I don’t see why they want to go on the Euro. You can see in the recent collapse that not all Euro countries have the same values, like Greece, and can drag down the rest. Maybe they can consult Ron Paul on the gold standard.
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Not a smart idea.
I actually think uncoventionally – it would have been better if the British Empire of the 1920s had never broken up.
I wish that instead of independence, all those countries had instead lobbied for equal citizenship within the Empire so that Indians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, Australians, Candians, various Africans, and Britons themselves of course – were all equal citizens in a vast vast nation stretching across the face of the Earth – and with free movement of people, trade, goods and services throughout the Empire. I’m sure that would have been good for overall economic development too.
Quite the opposite of Scottish independence of course.
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as an American and I see how much strength we have with our states and other affiliated nations(Guam/Puerto Rico/Philippines, etc), I am glad that did not happen
Quote from SadRad
Not a smart idea.
I actually think uncoventionally – it would have been better if the British Empire of the 1920s had never broken up.
I wish that instead of independence, all those countries had instead lobbied for equal citizenship within the Empire so that Indians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, Australians, Candians, various Africans, and Britons themselves of course – were all equal citizens in a vast vast nation stretching across the face of the Earth – and with free movement of people, trade, goods and services throughout the Empire. I’m sure that would have been good for overall economic development too.
Quite the opposite of Scottish independence of course.
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Agree. Dumb idea. Its not like they are gaining independence from an oppressive nation. Under Great Britain, they have virtual autonomy and full representation in a highly functional society. Great Britain is one of the greatest democracies of all time. The British Empire arguably added more value to humanity than any government since the Roman Empire. Independence is dumb, dumb, dumb.
Gaun yerself Scotland. Yer moagered with pride. -
Quote from SadRad
I wish that instead of independence, all those countries had instead lobbied for equal citizenship within the Empire so that Indians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, Australians, Candians, various Africans, and Britons themselves of course – were all equal citizens in a vast vast nation stretching across the face of the Earth – and with free movement of people, trade, goods and services throughout the Empire. I’m sure that would have been good for overall economic development too.
Sure, that would have been a hard to beat setup. Unfortunately, the white racists who ran the not so great britain at the time would have never allowed that.
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I don´t see much difference if they stay in the european union
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The EU economic criteria can be stifling. As we’ve already seen with Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy, a one-size-fits-all all paradigm is not easily sustainable. If Scotland was independent it would at least be able to print its own money to stay afloat. Meanwhile, it has enough tax incentive that has already enticed the US to set up a slew of manufacturing plants over there, and so it does have a very decent revenue-generating mechanism to fuel a self-contained economy. It’s not clear to me how Scotland benefits more from being part of the EU in the first place.
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Quote from nucmed
I don´t see much difference if they stay in the european union
Sure, they’ll be joining economic powerhouses like cyprus, estonia and slovakia. For those little countries, joining the EU was a boon because they received tons of infrastructure money from the payors (germany, france, italy, UK) after they joined. Scotland has been living on the teat of the EU for 30 years, there will be no such influx after they spin off from the UK.
The people selling this pipe-dream are counting on taking the north-sea oil and fisheries from the UK, I doubt that that will happen.
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Polls still favor “no” over “yes” by some decent margin. But it’s definitely tighter than it was a year ago. And 16% undecided … that’s a lot to fight over for the next few months.
[link=http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-labour-official-backing-yes-1-3376042]http://www.scotsman.com/n…-backing-yes-1-3376042[/link]
Scottish independence: Labour official backing Yes[/h1]
SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon made a special appeal to Labour voters to back independence in her conference speech on Friday, amid a concerted push to make pro-independence group Yes Scotland more appealing to supporters of the unionist party.
Mr Dyer, a member of Unite, and who is on the unions finance sector committee, said he believes independence will lead to a fairer Scotland.
He said: With a Yes vote industrial relations will no longer be shackled by the same anti-strike regulations or restrictions on employees rights that stem from Westminster.
In an independent Scotland, workers can expect greater legal protection where well all have collective bargaining rights and the right not to be victimised. Trade unionists want a Scotland where workers are looked after and a Yes vote is the best way to achieve that.
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We go there every year, and I have learned that there was a surprising (for me) degree of support for this. It doesn’t seem like very reasoned support, but there is still hostile feeling toward the english. (not nearly what the irish feel, though). So it seems to me to be 70% emotional.
The Scots are very resourceful, I think they would do fine, but better as a united UK, I think
The degree of real (vs emotional) discrepancy seems no different than what we in Columbus feel toward Cleveland (yep, Dergon, no one down here would be upset if Cleveland seceded), or Toledo, or Athens. All of them seem to be a drain on us, but we soldier on. -
Quote from Phil Shaffer
We go there every year
You have family or just like it? I’m looking forward to heading there this fall. (The International Skeletal Society is meeting is in Edinburgh this year…. good luck for me 🙂 )
NEWS:
[link=http://www.newsweek.com/polls-show-scottish-independence-vote-closer-ever-254972]http://www.newsweek.com/p…ote-closer-ever-254972[/link]
[b]
Polls Show Scottish Independence Vote Is Closer Than Ever[/b]The campaign for Scottish independence continues to gain ground against its pro-union rival, two surveys showed on Sunday, as pollsters near consensus that the race is getting ever-tighter ahead of the September referendum.
A record 43 percent back the campaign for independence, according to the latest poll by Panelbase, up two points from May, with the percentage against dropping one point to 46 percent.
The Panelbase poll of 1060 voters, commissioned by the “Yes” campaign, found that once undecideds were excluded, support for secession grew to 48 percent, with 52 percent against.
The campaign has entered its final phase, with both sides laying out economic projections for an independent Scotland.
Nationalists have also used the good showing of Eurosceptic parties in European elections in May to highlight Scotland’s differences with the rest of Britain.
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Well, my wife’s family is fairly recently emigrated from scotland – like early 1900’s or so – Her great grandfather was a cousin of the queen Mum (lyon family name). So she wanted to see Glamis castle – the family estate – and so we went in 2007. It was so nice we have gone back every year since.
We are going to be going there for 2 weeks at the end of August/beginning of September – it will be interesting to hear the political talk at that time. I’ll have to have a native explain the issues to me when I get over there to get a better overview of the emotional aspects.
Are you just going for the meeting, or are you staying for some vacation afterwards. We have some Primo places to stay, although I have to say they are mostly in the country, we tend to leave the big cities asap, and head to the highlands.
1.5 hours north of Edinburgh is Pitlochry. Best to think of it as sort of a rustic tourist town. Took me a while to figure out, but Scots from other areas come there for vacations. Lots of fishing and hunting in the area, and they have a Theater season in the summer that is always sold out.
Here is a very nice place we stayed. Just dripping with atmosphere.
[link=http://www.easthaugh.co.uk/hotel-tour/bedrooms.htm]http://www.easthaugh.co.uk/hotel-tour/bedrooms.htm[/link]
We’re going to the Braemar Gathering on Sept 6. ([link=http://braemargathering.org/index.html)]http://braemargathering.org/index.html) [/link]The Queen and some of the family always come, so we’ll get to see her. It’s funny, the website describes “large crowds” and if you look at the photos, the stands surrounding the field are between about 5 and 10 rows high, not really as big as our local high school football stadium.
Our seats are about 50 yards from the royal box. It will be interesting against the background of the independence vote to see how that goes.
Also interesting because the queen of course is scottish.The games themselves are very entertaining. Each area seems to have a slightly different take on it. In Stirling, they had one speed bike races on a grass track that lasted about 20-30 laps. Looked exhausting. And they have contests for throwing various heavy things, like telephone poles. One good point is that usually the Single Malt distilleries have tents, and you can “sample”.
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Nice! Conference is only a few days at the end of the week and we’re going to do a full week.
Options include flying into Glasgow and running up the West coast into the Highlands by car and looping into Edinburgh at week end, flying into EDI and just heading North (your Pitlochry advice is something I will have to look in to) on a big circle for a few days, or flying into London and taking the train North into northern England and the Borderlands to visit some of family clan sites, Hadrian’s wall etc, eventually arriving in Edinburgh in time for the conference.
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And on the historical side of Scottish Independnce:
[link=http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/bannockburn-live-gets-underway-near-stirling-1-3459999]http://www.scotsman.com/l…ear-stirling-1-3459999[/link]
[image]http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.3459998.1403964494!/image/2797144416.jpg_gen/derivatives/articleImgDeriv_628px/2797144416.jpg[/image]
THE two-day Bannockburn Live event is underway, marking the 700th anniversary of the battle that saw Robert the Bruce defeat the English army led by Edward II.
More than 300 warriors have performed scenes choreographed by the team behind the battle sequences in hit films Gladiator and Robin Hood, and visitors have had the chance to trace their ancestral roots and experience life as it was lived in the 14th century.
The National Trust for Scotland and Historic [link=http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/bannockburn-live-gets-underway-near-stirling-1-3459999][color=”#446688″]Scotland[/color][/link] have meanwhile been working for months to transform the Bannockburn site ahead of the 700th anniversary celebrations.
Historic monuments have been restored and a new visitor centre has welcomed thousands of visitors since opening earlier this year.
Visitors to Bannockburn Live will get the chance to see armour and swords being made in a blacksmiths and watch as men are treated in hospital as they come off the battlefield.
The town is also playing host to [b][link=http://www.scotsman.com/what-s-on/cameron-and-salmond-join-armed-forces-celebrations-1-3459946]UK Armed Forces Day[/link][/b], with Prime Minister David Cameron, First Minister Alex Salmond and the Princess Royal set to join thousands of visitors.
On the political side, it will be interesting to see of the 700th Anniversary events and press coverage move the needle on Scots nationalism and independence polling. -
[link=http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/scotland-s-yes-campaign-nudges-ahead-in-the-polls-1.1908188]http://www.irishtimes.com…in-the-polls-1.1908188[/link]
[b]
[h1]Scotlands Yes campaign nudges ahead in the polls[/b][/h1][link=http://www.irishtimes.com/search/search-7.1213540?tag_person=Alex%20Salmond&article=true]Alex Salmond[/link] lost the first TV debate earlier this month by a country mile, yet the Yes side in Scotlands independence referendum campaign nudged a little forward in later opinion polls.
Last night, he decisively beat former [link=http://www.irishtimes.com/search/search-7.1213540?tag_organisation=Labour&article=true]Labour[/link] Chancellor of the Exchequer [link=http://www.irishtimes.com/search/search-7.1213540?tag_person=Alistair%20Darling&article=true]Alistair Darling[/link] in a snap poll conducted by [i]The Guardian[/i] gave it to the Scottish National Party leader by 71 points to 29.
The question is what, if any difference it will make with little more than three weeks out has Mr Salmond done enough to turn around two years of polling figures.
Last night, he was generous with his offer, saying he had three Plan Bs that included a flexible currency, a currency fixed to the pound and unilateral use of the pound.
[link=http://www.irishtimes.com/search/search-7.1213540?tag_topic=Scotland&article=true]Scotland[/link] could not be stopped using the pound, he said, which is true though Mr Darling pointed out that that meant life without a central bank behind the Scottish economy.
Frequently, the debate descended into a shouting match, leading to fears the undecided voters both sides need to win over in the remaining weeks had switched off.
The two particularly clashed over the [link=http://www.irishtimes.com/search/search-7.1213540?tag_company=NHS&article=true]NHS[/link]. It was mentioned once in the first debate, but Yes [link=http://www.irishtimes.com/search/search-7.1213540?tag_location=Scotland&article=true]Scotland[/link] has raised fears since then that it faces imminent threat from London.
Interesting that the biggest point of conflict in the 2nd debate wasn’t currency, jobs, oil, — but health care.
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The British government is officially very nervous.
[link=http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-07/u-k-races-to-grant-powers-to-scots-to-blunt-independence.html]http://www.bloomberg.com/…lunt-independence.html[/link]
[b]U.K. Races to Grant Powers to Scots to Blunt Independence[/b]
The U.K. government raced to put together a package of more powers for [link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/scotland/]Scotland[/link] in a bid to persuade voters to reject independence in favor of the promise of more autonomy within the union.
Shocked into action by a poll showing the Yes campaign ahead for the first time this year just 10 days before a referendum on independence, all three main U.K. parties said they would cede more control over the levers of policy making to the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh. Scots nationalist leader [link=http://topics.bloomberg.com/alex-salmond/]Alex Salmond[/link] dismissed the move yesterday as a bribe that wouldnt sway voters in the Sept. 18 ballot.
The rush to hand over power reflects mounting political and investor concern that the splintering of the U.K. after more than three centuries has moved into the realms of reality. Having attacked the Yes camps assertions on an independent Scotlands currency, economic viability and European Union membership, polls suggest the Better Together campaign has still failed to arrest the drift toward independence.
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Scottish independence – a bad idea all around.
The only good thing about the pro independence movement is that it is apparently the first time that racial/ethnic minoities are not threatened by a nationalist movement. In other words, it’s not racist.
[link=http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/12/scotland-independence-referendum_n_5488582.html]http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/12/scotland-independence-referendum_n_5488582.html[/link]
According to the article, 64% of Asian Scotsman (ie second generation Indians and Pakistanis whose parents came to Scotland from India, Pakistan etc) support independence.
So while I give credit to the Scottish nationalists for being racially inclusive, they are still dead wrong and making a huge mistake.
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I hope they don’t put all their nuggets on the oil market which is not reliable
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I find no reason that a independent Scotland can’t be a viable State. It will have to haggle over it’s share of the debt and other UK liabilities as well its share of assets but overall it has a highly educated workforce and could have a quite successful economy. It could end up being like a Denmark.
There would be some short term uncertainty that might spook markets and investments but in a decade Scotland will be just fine.
Will it be better off than staying with England … tough to know. But I think the pr-Union claims of Scottish independence calamity are way overblown. -
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNCFR8SqioE&feature=youtu.be]http://www.youtube.com/wa…E&feature=youtu.be[/link]
The Proclaimers and a nice Yes! video -
It’s a most dumb idea.
Major financial institutions will leave Scotland, 100000 Scotsmen and Scotswomen will lose their jobs, Scottish currency will be unstable, the economy will suffer.
I hope the majority of Scottish voters will have common sense and keep the UK together.
Look at India – a country of 1.2 billion people who speak 780 different languages, use 86 different alphabets, and are of many races and religions but are able to coexist – more or less peacefully – in the same country. India could have broken up into 25+ different countries but is stronger today because it is one country.
The UK is much smaller – 70 million people only. Any yet despite the fact that the Scots are mostly white, Christian and speak English, they want their own country – as if they’re all that different from their English and Welsh neighbors to the South. What a joke!
And even more of a joke is how second generation Asians in Scotland have started supporting the Scottish separatist cause.
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A nice article on the reasoning behind the independence movement.
And as a bonus there are great pics (it’s in National Geographic)
[link=http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/special-features/2014/09/140912-scotland-united-kingdom-independence-referendum-culture/]http://news.nationalgeogr…ce-referendum-culture/[/link]
We’re a very emotional people. They just need to put [link=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112573/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1][i]Braveheart[/i][/link]on the telly every night, and that [link=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114287/][i]Rob Roy[/i][/link] film where Jessica Lange is raped by an English soldier.”
The so-called “Braveheart factor”an emotional longing for independence, coupled with a historic antipathy to the Englishhas been much talked about in the lead-up to the referendum.
But emotions are only part of the story. Scotland’s distinct history and culture, the belief that its economy would be better run by Scots, are all factors driving the country toward the exit door. So is politics. Scotland has always been more left-wing than the rest of Britain. Saying Yes is also a way of saying No to Cameron’s austerity policies, above all his deep cuts in health and welfare spending.
In recent years the U.K. has increasingly become the [i]dis[/i]-united kingdom, its constituent parts beginning to spin away from the centerLondon and the so-called Home Counties of southern Englandlike atoms in a centrifuge. In 1997, Prime Minister Tony Blair’s government, reacting to rising nationalism in Scotland and Wales, set in motion a process known as devolution.
Scotland was allowed to establish its own parliament and take control of some social policies, such as health and education. But key powers such as taxation and welfare remained in the hands of Westminster.
Scotland has long had high unemployment and chronic social problems, so when Prime Minister Cameron imposed austerity measures in response to the recent recession, many Scots felt even more alienated than before.
“For me it’s a purely democratic argument. The U.K. is going in a different political direction to Scotland. There are particular social problems here, particularly in health. We’re an extremely unhealthy country. We have a deeper divide between rich and poor than the rest of the U.K. And unless we have control of our own country, we won’t be able to address these issues.”
[link=http://www.front-step.co.uk/biography/]David Greig[/link], Scotland’s best known playwright and a passionate Yes Scotland campaigner, says, “For me it’s an issue of principle. The British state was built for a small class of people to maintain an empire. It did very well at that, but it’s not any longer, to my mind, the kind of modern, functional democracy we need in Scotland.”
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Jenny Lindsey, the poet who switched from No to Yes, believes that whatever the outcome next week, Scotland will never be the same again.
“What I find best about the entire process, regardless of who wins, is what’s happened to the people of Scotland. The level of engagement has been astounding. And I think the task for the Yes movement is to keep that level of engagement going. This is something that has been growing for many years. And I don’t think it will go away.”
If the campaign fails this time but “Yes” get 45%+ of the vote, the issue won’t be settled. UK devolution is continuing and the bargain of London granting more power to Scotland in exchange for remaining in the Union might just make the issue of secession more likely to come up again in 30 years. -
I would hate to see a key US ally strategically compromised by an internal split.
I would also hate to see lots of working families in Scotland lose their jobs.
Both of the above are inevitable consequences of secession.
And let’s be honest here – this would only embolden separatist movements around the world from Kashmir to Chechnya to Baluchistan to Xinjiang province. That’s not good for world economic development and economic stability.
List of reasons why Scottish independence would be an economic disaster:
[link=http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnicholson/2014/03/05/5-reasons-why-scottish-independence-would-be-an-economic-disaster/]http://www.forbes.com/sit…-an-economic-disaster/[/link]
If anyone in Scotland is reading this post, please do everyone a favor and vote “NO” this Thursday – thank you.
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Bah! Don’t buy into the Better Together scare tactics. You have Westminster arguing on one hand that Scottish devolution will be a catastrophe while on the other trying to just that … devolve themselves out of the EU.
Go ahead and vote YES!
((It will be razor thin result I think either way the vote goes)) -
Those despicable vermin known as ISIS have just brutally beheaded a British citizen.
Now is a time for unity, not division.
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Or maybe Scotland feels that by distancing itself from the warmongering stance of Westminster of the last decade + they might be able to in the future make it so that their citizens [i]aren’t[/i] targets of revenge killings.
#equallyasbullshi*tasthestuffsadradposted
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Look, lets not conflate two separate issues here. 1) Scottish aid worker killed. 2) Scottish Independence.
Should be two different threads entirely. -
[link=http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/sep/16/stephen-colbert-backs-scottish-independence]http://www.theguardian.co…-scottish-independence[/link]
Stephen Colbert backs Scottish independence and pledges solidarity proclaiming:
[b]”Ich bin ein Edinbrugher!”[/b] -
Just returned from 2 weeks in scotland. Interesting.
Went through some small towns which had alternating yes/no signs on the light posts.
Here it is in general:
1) younger (more firebrand) voters are yes
2) Older (those with more to lose financially) are no
3) No voters point out that the SNP has said that Scotland would be rich, but that there are NO detailed plans of how this would work out. In other words – they are walking the plank hoping to learn how to swim really quickly.
4) Bank of England says they will not be responsible for the debts of a foreign nation. This against a background of the recent history: the Royal bank of Scotland became insolvent and needed a huge bail out from the rest of the UK. That won’t happen again.
5) SNP says they will be rich because of north sea oil. Well, they don’t own it. And, as the Labor representative pointed out on the debate, the price of oil could crash any day.
6) Many Scots DETEST the tories, as a result of Thatcher taking away some of their entitlements. The feeling is very strong. Interestingly, in the debate, the labor representative was saying – vote to stay united and you and I will take care of the Tories in the next election. The scots are intense socialists, by and large.
7) This would not be a contest, except that the current British government agreed to the stipulation that any Scot living in any other part of the UK (like just south of the border) could not vote. Excluded a large vote that would go “no”.
IMHO most of the Yes partisans are reacting out of three hundred year old emotion, and are not being rational. Their major beef right now appears to be that they don’t like the Tories. Well, the people in South Carolina don’t like Obama, the people in New York didn’t like Bush. So what. The economic stability is more important than some ideologic differences that will go away in a few years.
Just as with any divorce, the costs will be high and the results totally unpredictable. Markets hate uncertainty, the pound may well crash.
Crazy, really. -
[link=http://www.theonion.com/articles/david-cameron-to-scottish-people-ill-kill-myself-i,36941/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default]http://www.theonion.com/a…=LinkPreview:1:Default[/link]
[b]
[h1]David Cameron To Scottish People: Ill Kill Myself If You Leave [/b][/h1]
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Today’s the day. It’s on like Donkey Kong.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
Today’s the day. It’s on like Donkey Kong.
So Close. But NO won the day.
I’m still looking forward to our trip over in a few weeks although the excitement would have been higher had it been a trip to a newly independent Scotland. I’ll still be looking to buy our family clan tartan.
One thing that I think is true …. all this attention on Scotland, all the media pictures of Highland hills and lochs, of bagpipes and kilts will, even with the no vote, lead to a boom in Scottish tourism.
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You fought hard, brothers. But today was not your day. It’s painful to lose, but at least it’s not Culloden.
[b]Alba gu bràth![/b] -
Wasn’t even close.
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it sounded like the younger generation was more for it. Maybe as the old folks die off we’ll see another vote.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
it sounded like the younger generation was more for it. Maybe as the old folks die off we’ll see another vote.
Unemployment for the 16-24 bracket is 21%. Of course, they want the dole to keep flowing and one of the hopes for scottish independence was that it would create ‘more equality’, a code word for welfare. -
Interesting parallel:
There has been from time to time, a groundswell for southern Oregon and northern California to split and form the state of Jefferson. At one time, the conception was a separate country. Well, this was a very hot topic in the 30’s and then it died in the 40’s. One history book suggested that as the residents looked at the possibility of a Japanese invasion, that they decided it was probably better to tolerate the US, and avail themselves of the opportunity of using the US military for protection.
Now, there is again growing sentiment to secede. Really, they have little to do with the culture of San Francisco/LA, and are faced with burdensome taxes.
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Quote from Dr.Sardonicus
Interesting parallel:
There has been from time to time, a groundswell for southern Oregon and northern California to split and form the state of Jefferson. At one time, the conception was a separate country. Well, this was a very hot topic in the 30’s and then it died in the 40’s. One history book suggested that as the residents looked at the possibility of a Japanese invasion, that they decided it was probably better to tolerate the US, and avail themselves of the opportunity of using the US military for protection.
Now, there is again growing sentiment to secede. Really, they have little to do with the culture of San Francisco/LA, and are faced with burdensome taxes.
I think the Scottish secession movement has more in common with that in Texas …. but politically reversed.
Texas has somewhat a culture of its own (more than most US states at least). But the issue really flares when they see national politics going in the opposite direction of the State.
In Scotland the population is much more liberal than the rest of the UK and when the Tories hold power and take actions that effect Scotland the spittle really gets flying. I look at the swell of the Texas secession under the Obama presidency as very similar but with inverted politics. -
((This poem was written long before the referndum results were tallied ))
[i]
[b][b]The Morning After[/b] [/b][/i]
[i]Scotland September 19, 2014[/i]
Let none wake despondent: one way
or another we have talked plainly,
tested ourselves, weighed up the sum
of our knowing, taen tent o scholars,
checked the balance sheet of risk and
fearlessness, of wisdom and of folly.
Was it about the powers we gain or how
we use them? We aim for more equality;
and for tomorrow to be more peaceful
than today; for fairness, opportunity,
the common weal; a hand stretched out
in ready hospitality.
Its those unseen things that bind us,
not flag or battle-weary turf or tartan.
There are dragons to slay whatever happens:
poverty, false pride, snobbery, sectarian
schisms still hovering. But theres
nothing broken thats not repairable.
Were a citizenry of bonnie fighters,
a gathered folk; a culture that imparts,
inspires, demands a rare devotion,
no back-tracking; that each should work
and play our several parts to bring about
the best in Scotland, an open heart.
[i]~Christine DeLuca[/i]
[pre] [/pre] [pre]
[/pre]
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The amazing thing is that the discussions, before and after, were all peaceful, especially that the outcome didn’t become an excuse for rioting. No fears of “voter fraud” or disenfranchising voters, whether union voters or independence voters. And all the suspense of what might happen upon successful vote for separation was all about the how to do it & the economic expectations, good and bad, and not about expectations of rioting. And no one seems to have been demonized by the other side. Everyone accepted the vote as the voice of the people, not something to be undermined.
Pretty amazing. -
and no far right ?gentleman got up and screamed: U LIE
Quote from Frumious
The amazing thing is that the discussions, before and after, were all peaceful, especially that the outcome didn’t become an excuse for rioting. No fears of “voter fraud” or disenfranchising voters, whether union voters or independence voters. And all the suspense of what might happen upon successful vote for separation was all about the how to do it & the economic expectations, good and bad, and not about expectations of rioting. And no one seems to have been demonized by the other side. Everyone accepted the vote as the voice of the people, not something to be undermined.
Pretty amazing.
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We spent Saturday in Glasgow.
The referendum may have failed but the independence movement is still alive and well.
The Scottish national team played in the afternoon so kilts and flags were in full bloom.
Then as we left our hotel Sunday, thousands were gathered for an independence rally in George square.
[b] 45 and Rising! [/b] is now the slogan on lips and t- shirts of nationalistic Scots.
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Unrelated to independence but …
This has been a wonderful week in Scotland. Fabulous luck with the weather. It has been sunny every day.
Now the ISS conference is great. We had a private event at Edinburgh Castle last night. Just skeletal society members being able to walk about in the castle grounds.
highly recommended !
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Exit polls for the UK election for the Scottish National Party winning 58 of 59 seats in Scotland.
45 and Rising! -
hail to the scotts…always thought my last name was Irish(even with my mom’s grandmother saying we are lace curtain Irish but your mom married the darkie doctor(unbelievable family dynamics))..now I find evidence that it is actually Scottish in origin
Quote from dergon
Exit polls for the UK election for the Scottish National Party winning 58 of 59 seats in Scotland.
45 and Rising!
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[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/10/cameron-no-scottish-indep_n_7253186.html]Cameron Rules Out Another Scottish Independence Vote[/url]
I think the Scots might have some different to say on that matter.
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Like …”Queen Nicola of Scotland”…
[link=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3074139/If-looks-kill-Cameron-faces-deadliest-enemies-Nicola-Sturgeon-yellow-peril-north-border.html]http://www.dailymail.co.u…eril-north-border.html[/link]
She promised to ‘lock the Tories out’ by voting to support a Labour administration, but has been denied that option by David Cameron winning a majority. Still, many would say she actually has the result she wanted all along: a Conservative PM whom she can paint as a toffee-nosed English bogeyman, and an army of Nationalist MPs causing him trouble and harassing his Government at every turn.
Ms Sturgeon will ensure her MPs vote against every measure Mr Cameron and his hated Tories attempt to pass through the Commons. The SNP will push for higher taxes, higher benefit payments and the scrapping of the UK’s nuclear deterrent. And, crucially, they will no longer be shouting these demands from over Hadrian’s Wall. They will be at the heart of power, and have seats on Westminster’s Commons committees, as well as a more prominent role in parliamentary debates.
They will be an intimidating physical presence on the green benches, and the 56 Scots will observe a ruthless unity and commitment to the cause: there’s no such thing as an SNP maverick.
[[[[[ -
The United Kingdom votes to leave the European Union.
Scotland, however, votes to remain.
Nichola Sturgeon says that a second independence referendum now on the table, with an independent Scotland becoming part of the EU.
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[url=http://www.scotsman.com/news/poll-puts-support-for-scottish-independence-at-59-1-4163338]Support for Scottish independence surges to 59%[/url]
NEARLY six out of 10 Scots say theyd vote Yes in a second independence referendum.
[/h3] In a clear reflection of the growing backlash north of the Border to Thursdays Brexit result, a ScotPulse online survey of 1,600 Scottish adults on Friday (24 June) showed that 59% of Scots now back leaving the UK.
The poll was carried out just hours after the EU result was confirmed and offers a boost to First Minister Nicola Sturgeon who has dramatically put the prospect of another independence vote back on the table.
Nearly two-thirds of Scots believe that was the right move, according to our survey.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
If they do, don’t they lose the access to the pound?
Anonymous MPs in the UK saying “Of course there will be a monetary union if Scotland votes Yes” . More and more it seems like the threat of forcing Scotland off of Sterling is just that … a threat. It’s a political ploy that would be too painful for the UK, even a spurned post-scots-independence-vote UK, to follow through on.
[link=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8bf832a8-b984-11e3-b74f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2xm4UH81b]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0…dc0.html#axzz2xm4UH81b[/link]
If [link=http://www.ft.com/topics/places/Scotland]Scotland[/link] votes for independence what will be the scenario for its economy? The government in London, supported by the Labour opposition, has ruled out a sterling currency area for an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK.
But is this really the most sensible economic option for both parts of Britain [link=http://www.ft.com/topics/themes/Scottish_Independence]post-independence[/link] or just a negotiation stance driven by politics? Look at the facts and I would argue (as I did recently in evidence to the Scottish parliament) that a successful currency union would actually be in the interest of both sides and especially the rest of the UK.
Undoubtedly there are considerable costs to abandoning the [link=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6fb2523a-b8b8-11e3-835e-00144feabdc0.html]sterling currency union[/link]. Additional transaction costs of conducting trade from sterling to a separate Scottish currency might amount to £500m-£2.5bn a year for companies south of the border. The figure depends on whether one takes an estimate of annual transaction costs of 0.1 per cent of gross domestic product or the 0.5 per cent cited by [link=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4303a5ce-88e1-11e3-9f48-00144feab7de.html]Mark Carney[/link], governor of the Bank of England. These are substantial costs, and would shave a substantial proportion from economic growth for years.
To this we have to add unquantifiable costs such as the deterrent effect which abandoning the sterling union will have on companies operating across borders; a business from the rest of the UK wishing to invest in Scotland could be deterred by the exchange rate risk. The same would also apply for Scottish companies contemplating an investment in England. This is because the currency risks from trade can be hedged using foreign exchange rate markets but those longer-term currency risks linked to investments are difficult to hedge.
…
Of course there are alternatives to a currency union. However, we should not pretend these are without costs. An informal monetary union whereby Scotland adopted sterling should be concerning to the UK. Scotland is not to the remainder of the UK as Panama (which informally uses the dollar) is to the US: would the UK really wish 10 per cent of its money supply used informally on its doorstep? A separate Scottish currency would be viable, but we know countries linked by flexible exchange rates are not insulated from each others macroeconomic risks, especially where there are close trade and capital flow links.
But the most damaging prospect to the rest of the UK from rejecting a sterling currency union is what it will do to its own trade and business activity. Whatever the political tactics involved, it would be tantamount to economic vandalism.
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[link=http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4199168.ece]http://www.thetimes.co.uk…dum/article4199168.ece[/link]
[b]
YouGov poll puts Yes campaign ahead for the first time[/b][/h1]Scotlands Yes campaign for independence has taken the lead with just days to the referendum, the Sunday Times reveals tonight.
A poll by YouGov puts the pro-independence group ahead for the first time, with 51% in favour of independence and 49% against.
As the Sunday Times reports tomorrow, Buckingham Palace has expressed its concern about the prospect of a breakaway Scotland and a constitutional crisis.
Better Together leader Alistair Darling said it was a “wake-up call”.
The poll of 1,084 people is the first and only serious study to put the Yes campaign ahead.
Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon described it as a “breakthrough” moment and said support for independence was growing particularly among Labour voters and women.
“Scotland is one of the wealthiest countries in the world,” she said.
“More and more people are beginning to realise that a Yes vote is Scotland’s one opportunity to make that enormous wealth work better for everybody who lives here, create more jobs, and protect vital services such as the NHS from the damaging effects of Westminster privatisation.”
‘Speak out’ As both sides step-up their campaigns with just 12 days to go till the referendum, a Downing Street source said David Cameron would “strain every sinew” to make the case for the union.
The prime minister believes there is “only one poll that matters”, the source added.
But Mr Darling said: “These polls can and must now serve as a wake-up call to anyone who thought the referendum result was a foregone conclusion – it never was.
“It will go down to the wire. Now is the time to speak up and speak out.”
Meanwhile, former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown appeared to blame the Conservative Party for the closeness of the battle.
[link=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gordon-brown-unique-relationship-united-4176853]Writing in the Sunday Mirror[/link], Mr Brown suggested the Better Together camp was finding it “difficult” to win over Scots because of anger over coalition policies – including changes to housing benefit and tax cuts for the wealthy.
But a senior source at the cross-party Better Together campaign denied there were any rifts and said they would not be changing strategy for the final days of campaigning. -
From the lost valley in Glen Coe, an empassioned plea:
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbeEMIIlTeg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbeEMIIlTeg[/link]
[b]WAKE UP![/b]
They want to keep us silent
to keep us subdued
Mentally broken
socially confused
So what is the answer?
What is the solution?
We need to be patient to reach a conclusion
We must never give up
We must keep on pressin’
There must be an end
To Westminster’s oppression
So now you know my opinion
you don’t have to guess
Now let’s unite Scotland and
[size=”0″][b]Vote FOOCKIN’ YES![/b][/size]
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[link=http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/9/15/6151715/watch-john-oliver-romantic-gesture-scotland-scottish-independence]http://www.vox.com/xpress…-scottish-independence[/link]
John Oliver does a very good (and funny) (and balanced) job in a long segment on Scottish Independence -
BBC: [url=http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338]SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon announces new independence referendum bill[/url]
A consultation gets under way next week on plans for a second Scottish independence referendum, the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed. She told the party’s Glasgow conference that an Independence Referendum Bill would be published next week. It marks the first step to holding a second vote.
“I am determined that Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question of independence and to do so before the UK leaves the EU – if that is necessary to protect our country’s interests.
“So, I can confirm today that the Independence Referendum Bill will be published for consultation next week.”
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3 years later … almost the same post …
[link=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48424906]https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48424906[/link][b]Sturgeon calls for second Scottish Independence Referendum in Second Half of 2020[/b]
First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has called for a new Scottish independence referendum in the second half of 2020.
Speaking in Dublin Ms Sturgeon said the “latter half” of next year would be the “right time” for a new poll.
The SNP leader predicted victory in a second vote, with Scotland becoming “an independent country just like Ireland”.
Ms Sturgeon also confirmed legislation setting out the rules for another independence referendum will be published at Holyrood on Wednesday.
Speaking after her [link=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48424055]party secured 37.7% of the Scottish vote[/link] in the European elections she gave a clearer indication of her preferred timeframe.
Ms Sturgeon said: “There will be another Scottish independence referendum and I will make a prediction today that Scotland will vote for independence and we will become an independent country just like Ireland, and the strong relationship between our two countries now will become even stronger soon.
“I want to see Scotland having the choice of independence within this term of the Scottish Parliament, which ends in May 2021, so towards the latter half of next year would be when I think is the right time for that choice.”
[/QUOTE]
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They are britains poorhouse. The only thing they have is some oil. Probably not enough for the EU to admit them.
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isn’t the point that they don’t want to be part of the UK or EU? Scottish independence, not Scottish EU.
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Scotland does not want to leave EU.
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Quote from DICOM_Dan
isn’t the point that they don’t want to be part of the UK or EU? Scottish independence, not Scottish EU.
The point is that they want to be a nominally poor country inside of the EU and be the recipient of wealth transfers that are baked into the system. They saw the cash that rained down on Ireland, Portugal and Spain when they joined and they think the same thing will happen to them.
Without EU membership, Scotland will have the economy of a caribbean island.-
If the U.K. can mumble through Brexit with a decent deal (or not leaving at all) the I dont think you will see IndyRef2 in Scotland
A no-deal Brexit both increases the likelihood of another referendum and increases its chance of success
(And there is a decent chance the EU would allow a Scottish membership application is the U.K. crashes out)
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[link=https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-indyref2-a9021661.html]https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-indyref2-a9021661.html
[/link]
[h1]Nicola Sturgeon will be rubbing her hands as Boris tilts the scales towards Scottish independence[/h1]To Scotlands first minister, Johnson must seem like the biggest political gift of her career. She has already [link=https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/scottish-independence-sturgeon-referendum-theresa-may-indyref2-brexit-a8885536.html]announced plans to[/link] hold another independence vote by 2021 if Scotland is taken out of the EU against its will, but following Johnsons victory, Sturgeon[link=https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-may-accelerate-scottish-independence-referendum-plan-after-boris-johnson-victory-1-4969607] said[/link] she may accelerate those plans because of her profound concern about his premiership. She then used her first letter to the prime minister to call for a new independence vote as an alternative Brexit option.
As Johnson packs his cabinet full of right-wing Brexiteers and battles to keep no-deal [link=https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/brexit]Brexit[/link] on the table, Sturgeon will have even more ammunition to suggest that Scotland is on a fundamentally different path to the rest of the UK. Even Scots who voted No to independence in 2014, particularly those who voted to remain in the EU, might now be asking themselves if she is right.
Ultimately, the events of this week have been on the horizon for a while. As England has drifted further to the right since 2010, Scotland has gone the other way.
The ascent of Johnson, an Etonian Brexiteer who embodies a brand of Englishness that practically drips with colonial nostalgia, personifies this growing divide. Johnsons premiership makes him the face of the rift. His rise allows the SNP to paint these differences as not only political, but cultural too.
…
And theres more. A new YouGov poll revealed that[link=https://www.thenational.scot/news/17788732.four-10-labour-members-want-scottish-independence-poll-reveals/] four in 10[/link] Scottish Labour supporters now support independence. This makes Scottish independence an even more tricky issue for Scottish Labour than Brexit is for the partys Westminster HQ. Sturgeon will hope the partys vague approach to Brexit, at odds with most of its members and voters, will be replicated above the border.
As Johnson answered questions in the House of Commons for the first time as PM, the SNPs leader in Westminster Ian Blackford proclaimed that he will be the UKs last prime minister. We dont know yet whether Johnsons government and its Brexit-at-all-costs approach will push Scots away for good, but the SNP must feel their ultimate goal of independence is now closer than ever.
[/QUOTE]
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[link=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/nicola-sturgeon-to-demand-powers-for-scottish-independence-referendum]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/nicola-sturgeon-to-demand-powers-for-scottish-independence-referendum[/link]
[h1]Sturgeon demands Scottish independence referendum powers after SNP landslide[/h1]
[b]First minister tells Boris Johnson she has renewed mandate after winning 47 of Scotlands 59 seats[/b]The first minister said she had won a renewed, refreshed and strengthened mandate to call for a fresh independence vote after winning 47 of Scotlands 59 Westminster seats, 11 more than in 2017.
I dont pretend that every single person who voted SNP yesterday will necessarily support independence, but there has been a strong endorsement in this election of Scotland having a choice over our future; of not having to put up with a Conservative government we didnt vote for and not having to accept life as a nation outside the EU.
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I’m interested to see how the voting dynamics on Scottish independence change post-Brexit.
A lot of the “No” vote during IndyRef1 came out of Edinburgh, where the finance folks felt they would be hurt with a Scotland outside of the UK.
Post-Brexit it is quite possible that the dynamic gets flipped around and Edinburgh starts to think it could become stronger like a Frankfurt if Scotland declares independent with the clear aim of joining the EU.
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I’m sympathetic to Scottish independence these days.
Who wants a crackpot like Boris Johnson as your PM ?-
[link=https://www.ft.com/content/2420501f-0304-4017-bfc5-46e56d325547]Financial Times[/link] –
[h1]Londons complacency puts Scottish independence back in play[/h1] [b]Brexit and UK governments haphazard approach to pandemic are fuelling the urge of Scots to go it alone[/b]Among the many casualties of the coronavirus lockdown were events marking the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath, a
1320 document signed by the lords and clerics of Scotland that includes the stirring line:For so long as a hundred of us remain alive, we will never in any degree be subject to the dominion of the English.
But disappointment among Scottish nationalists at the delay to celebrations is far outweighed by growing confidence that the end is nearing
for the three-century-old union with England, a union they argue inevitably means domination by a much larger neighbour. Just six years after
Scotland voted No to independence, opinion polls suggest that if a second referendum on the issue was held, a majority would now back leaving the UK.The shifting polls have dismayed Scottish supporters of continued union and sent shockwaves through a Conservative UK government suddenly scrambling
to find ways to shore up UK unity even as it grapples with the coronavirus pandemic and looming introduction of post-Brexit border controls with the EU.[/QUOTE]
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[link=https://www.thenational.scot/news/18…ew-poll-shows/]https://www.thenational.s…ws/18…ew-poll-shows/[/link]
Record public support for Scottish independence, new poll shows –
Ipsos-Mori found 58% of those likely to vote in such a ballot would choose Yes.
And almost two thirds – 64% – of Scots say the UK Government should allow another independence referendum to be held within the next five years if the SNP wins a majority of seats in next year’s Scottish Parliament elections.
Only a third of people disagree with this.
The findings come from research carried out by Ipsos MORIs Scottish Political Monitor, run in partnership with STV News and mark the highest level of public support for constitutional change ever recorded.
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[b]Happy St. Andrew’s Day[/b]
My scottish social media (and international clan dergon connections) tell me that this year the Scottish national day has taken on an even more nationalist tone than usual.
[link=https://www.thenational.scot/news/18905319.activists-lay-one-million-yes-stones-st-andrews-day/]https://www.thenational.s…stones-st-andrews-day/[/link]
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So Scottish independence is fine with you by referendum but Brexit by referendum (UK independence) is not?
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I put them in a similar bucket.
The process of devolution should be slow and show a sustained large majority preference over years.
I doubt that you will see broad support for Scottish indepence hold as long as the UK is in the EU (membership in the EU was a [b]huge[/b] selling point for the NO campaign during IndyRef1)
But if the UK leaves the EU fully, then I think you get a sustained 60% ish of Scots wanting to leave the UK…. then I say go ahead.-
That’s how UK support for Brexit was. It waxed and waned as well.
Strong support for “Leave” before 2014. Mixed from 2014-2016. Then support for “leave” at the time of the vote.
[link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#/media/File:UK_EU_referendum_polling.svg]https://en.wikipedia.org/…referendum_polling.svg[/link]
So, how sustained does something have to be? These are always goin to be snapshots somewhat.
I happily support both the UK deciding to leave and Scotland deciding to stay or leave. Everyone should have their own self-determination.-
Sure … but the question isnt whether you or I as individuals support it
The question is whether there is a US foreign policy interest one way … and to that I strongly answer …. remain
And even if they go through with it, it is in the us best interest to keep the UK as close to Europe as possible and to make clear that there is a cost so as to deter further disintegration of the union for when other eu nations start to backslide under right wing populist regimes
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I see your point but I guess I’m thinking of it the other way in that if they are separate from the EU then they have to rely on us and we can get much better deals with them as well as bring them closer to the fold in several areas. I think they can be a closer ally outside of the EU and act almost like a 51st state if done right. However, the question remains how weakened they will be outside of the EU. That’s why I think the US can take the place of the EU for them. I do agree though if they are left “floating in the breeze” without US or EU support, they will flounder.
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God that sounds Trumpy. “Better deals” *rolls eyes*
The United States is strongest when all of the world’s democracies are working together and acting democratic.
Peeling off the UK so that we can get imported HP sauce at a few cents cheaper per bottle is such a drop in the bucket compared to huge peace dividend that comes united global democracy.-
We can get deals on Bass Ale and fish and chips
Winning
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CHAOS in European allies!
WINNING!
Putin loves it!
WINNING!
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US Bass Ale is brewed in the good old USA. Merrimack, NH. You’ll find a number of what are seemingly imports that are like that.
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If they already have gone through Brexit, we might as well pull them as close to us as possible.
The future for us should center around the Anglosphere + Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and India.
We don’t need the EU as much as we used to and they aren’t worth bickering with right now. They haven’t paid their dues after we have protected them for 60+ years. If they want to pull their own weight then fine, but I’m frankly tired of having the American people subsidize the military of the EU while they spend freely on their welfare states. -
God you say the stupidest stuff
Im done reading anything you say
Blocked
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What I said is extremely reasonable and is an opinion of many people. Actually the majority of Americans think the EU needs to pay more to NATO and so did Obama. I suppose you wont see this but if you find that a thing to block someone over then you might be the most left wing person I have ever come in contact with.
As far as focusing on those particular countires for the future…that’s also been the plan of both obama and trump as part of the pivot toward china.
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Support for independence has returned to its highest levels and the SNP is likely to dominate the Scottish Parliament at the next election. Covid and Boris/Brexit earn most of the credit.
[link=https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-scottish-independence-support-surging-joint-record-levels-snp-set-majority-3070791]https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi…jority-3070791[/link]
[link=https://www.npr.org/2020/12/15/946242592/support-for-scottish-independence-is-growing-partly-due-to-u-k-s-covid-19-respon]https://www.npr.org/2020/12/15/94624…ovid-19-respon[/link] -
Good for them. I hope they have some discussions and decide what’s best for them moving forward, whether it’s with the UK or as a new (old) nation affiliated with the EU. Will be lots of tough decisions on that one given their integration into the UK system and geography.
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December 31 (if no Brexit deadline extention) will likely be a fulcrum of popular opinion.
If the UK is highly successful post-Brext then IndyRef2 sentiment probably wanes.
If the UK goes into recession and the norther Ireland border becomes a clusterf*ck and there are shortages, then support probably spikes.
And if I was Nicola Sturgeon that’s when I would make my move …. call it Q2-Q3 2021
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[link=https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1353044013776035840]https://twitter.com/thesu…us/1353044013776035840[/link]
Support in Scotland for IndyRef2 hits all time high. I believe this is the first survey ever to crack 50%
Support for referendum within 5 years:
50% support
43% oppose
7% don’t know
_____
Attitude toward Scottish independence:
Pleased 48%
not bothered 6%
upset 41%
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[link=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-56911692]https://www.bbc.com/news/…thern-ireland-56911692[/link]
[b]How Scotland’s elections could affect Northern Ireland’s future[/b][/h1] So when the votes are being counted after the Scottish Parliament election on 6 May, there will be many Stormont politicians glued to TV sets and smartphones on the other side of the Irish Sea.
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Something else which Scotland and Northern Ireland have in common is that a majority of people voted against leaving the European Union in 2016, even though the overall UK vote was in favour.
Brexit has fuelled nationalist demands to break away from the UK.
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[link=https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/first-results-through-crucial-scottish-elections-2021-05-07/]https://www.reuters.com/w…-elections-2021-05-07/[/link]
[h1][b]Ruling pro-independence SNP win early seats in crucial Scottish elections[/b][/h1]
(My Scottish social media, admittedly strongly pro-independence, seems to be thinking there is an SNP outperform overall)
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SNP majority very unlikely, pro-independence majority very possible.
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BBC is projecting:
SNP 63
Conservative 31
Labour 22
Liberal Democrat 4
Greens 9Although SNP short of majority (needed 65), this would be biggest pro-independence group at Holyrood with a 15 seat pro-Indy majority
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[link=https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scotsman.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fsturgeon-reiterates-2023-timeline-for-scottish-independence-referendum-3604710]https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi…rendum-3604710[/link]
[h1]Nicola Sturgeon reiterates 2023 timeline for Scottish independence referendum[/h1] -
[h3][link=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61785553]Nicola Sturgeon to launch fresh Scottish independence campaign[/link][/h3]
She also insisted she still planned to hold another vote before the end of next year.
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The first paper on the new independence push – entitled ‘Wealthier, Happier, Fairer: Why Not Scotland?’ – will be a “scene setter” which will compare Scotland and the UK to other European countries and set out why the government believes the country would be better off if it were independent.
The first minister told the BBC: “The conclusion very clearly is that Scotland could be doing much better as an independent country… Nobody right now can look at the UK – the mess it’s in currently and its prospects for the UK outside of the European Union surely and conclude anything other than that Scotland can do better as an independent country.”
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[link=https://news.sky.com/story/nicola-sturgeon-sets-a-date-for-a-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-12641957]https://news.sky.com/story/nicola-sturgeon-sets-a-date-for-a-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-12641957
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[h1]Nicola Sturgeon sets a date and question for proposed Scottish independence referendum[/h1]Scotland wants indeyref2 in Oct 2023
478 days from now
