[btomba_77]

And proudly so they are…
 
 
As William F. Buckley wrote:  “A conservative is someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it.”
 
 
 
Conservatism is truly the antithesis of progressivism.    
 
 
The 21st Century GOP is struggling mightily to adapt to a changing America and a changing world.   
 
I linked this [url=https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/campaigns-elections/gop-nativism-2016/]op-ed from [i]Commentary Magazine[/i][/url] in another thread, but it fits well here.
 

The message being sent to voters is this: The Republican Party is led by people who are profoundly uncomfortable with the changing (and inevitable) demographic nature of our nation. The GOP is longing to return to the past and is fearful of the future. It is a party that is characterized by resentments and grievances, by distress and dismay, by the belief that America is irredeemably corrupt and past the point of no return.

[kaldridgewv2211]

In the quote “the belief that America is irredeemably corrupt and past the point of no return” has a ring of truth to it.  I wonder if the reset button was the market collapse.

[kayla.meyer_144]

A “ring of truth?” Where? I will agree in 1 area, “Republicans say government is bad, get elected and then prove it.”
 
If the Country is irredeemably corrupt & past the point of no return, whose fault exactly is that if it was true? We’ve had Conservative government ideas since Reagan. Maybe the downhill course might be somewhat due to bad ideas? Like Supply-Side?
 
Last time I looked we were supposed to be a democracy. If things are bad it’s our own faults for being too stupid to keep it. Wasn’t it Ben Franklin who said something along, “We have a democracy, let’s see if we can keep it.”?
 
We have met the enemy and he is us. Republicans want to stoke fear and doubt. Don’t fall into that. Look where it’s got us already in only a few years.

[kaldridgewv2211]

Quote from Frumious

If the Country is irredeemably corrupt & past the point of no return, whose fault exactly is that if it was true? 

Off the top of my head, Citizens United.  I didn’t vote from any SCOTUS judge that allowed that said money = free speech.  Money buys influence.

[kayla.meyer_144]

OK so you disagree with the Court on that decision. So do I for the same reasons, money is not speech and money tends to corrupt.
 
But that does not necessarily translate to irredeemable corruption and no return.

[suyanebenevides_151]

I’ll just keep it very simple for the OP. Why are you on the “wrong side of history” just because you “lose”?
 
The country isn’t getting better. You might think it is, but it isn’t. That’s the linchpin issue — and it should get you to think a little bit more about the idea you posited.

[Unknown Member]

Quote from Cigar

I’ll just keep it very simple for the OP. Why are you on the “wrong side of history” just because you “lose”?

The country isn’t getting better. You might think it is, but it isn’t. That’s the linchpin issue — and it should get you to think a little bit more about the idea you posited.

The rationale behind this post is not to debate whether conservatives or progressives are “correct.” The idea is to point out that progressive ideas are ASCENDANT and will have the votes amongst the American population to make them into law.  Conservative ideas as we know them today are not viable going into the future. With each passing day, an old white Christian fundamentalist dies and is replaced by a young voter with progressive ideas. 
 
Conservatives of today are akin to the conservatives of the early 1900s who were against womens suffrage. They were able to hold off the inevitable for a few years, but inevitably they lost when the 19th amendment to the Constitution passed. A generation later, the question of womens suffrage was no longer controversial. It had become firmly accepted by the mainstream public. 
 
A generation from now, we will not be arguing issues of climate change, etc with the same vitriol as today. The reason will be that the issue will be firmly resolved and progressives will have won. 

[suyanebenevides_151]

Quote from sea64

Quote from Cigar

I’ll just keep it very simple for the OP. Why are you on the “wrong side of history” just because you “lose”?

The country isn’t getting better. You might think it is, but it isn’t. That’s the linchpin issue — and it should get you to think a little bit more about the idea you posited.

The rationale behind this post is not to debate whether conservatives or progressives are “correct.” The idea is to point out that progressive ideas are ASCENDANT and will have the votes amongst the American population to make them into law.  Conservative ideas as we know them today are not viable going into the future. With each passing day, an old white Christian fundamentalist dies and is replaced by a young voter with progressive ideas. 

Conservatives of today are akin to the conservatives of the early 1900s who were against womens suffrage. They were able to hold off the inevitable for a few years, but inevitably they lost when the 19th amendment to the Constitution passed. A generation later, the question of womens suffrage was no longer controversial. It had become firmly accepted by the mainstream public. 

A generation from now, we will not be arguing issues of climate change, etc with the same vitriol as today. The reason will be that the issue will be firmly resolved and progressives will have won. 

 
“Progressive” (read: mass man, decadent) ideas over time are always ascendant … particularly when an Empire is collapsing. You don’t know enough about history to see the writing is on the wall. What happens? Reset to traditional values, you know, the ones that make us human and survive (male/female/work hard). The sad thing is that the decline of empires always cause strife, war, and the re-booting. Progressives are pussies and always lose, eventually, because the  military is real men who believe in “conservative” living, whatever that means to you.
 
The global elites have sold out their citizens based on power and greed and it will lead to (civil) war. You want to stop civil wars in the future? Stop letting hundreds of thousands of people from backward cultures, who won’t assimilate, invade what’s left of the decent countries in the world.
 
I’m just looking/pointing out what’s inevitable; the truth must be told.

[Unknown Member]

Cigar
 
What is your prediction for the end of the World?
 
 

[btomba_77]

Quote from Frumious

OK so you disagree with the Court on that decision. So do I for the same reasons, money is not speech and money tends to corrupt.

But that does not necessarily translate to irredeemable corruption and no return.

 
A huge part of the anti-Obama 2012 argument was that if he was elected the Country would go off the cliff, changed (from the conservative viewpoint [i]for the worse)[/i] forever.  This is probably most dramatically evidenced by [i]2016: Obama’s America[/i], but that notion of “on the verge of apocalypse” was strong then.  One could argue that with the actions of a “liberated” Barack Obama over the second term,  that sentiment  is even stronger now.  
 
 

[kayla.meyer_144]

Does not translate or compute, the Citizens United was not an Obama decision not was it one he supported. 
 
As for the end, I think the financial apocalypse happened on Bush’s watch, no? It got better under Obama’s watch to the present recovery.
 
Or is that being too logical. I’m always being criticized for being too logical, when am I gonna learn?

[kaldridgewv2211]

Quote from Frumious

OK so you disagree with the Court on that decision. So do I for the same reasons, money is not speech and money tends to corrupt.

But that does not necessarily translate to irredeemable corruption and no return.

I guess there’s always a chance but what has to change.  If a very small minority of the Us population has most of the money, I can’t keep up with that.  Not as a person, or even a large group of people.  Money buys political commercials, fund raising for candidates, it buys the influence over people.  How do you turn that around?  I think it’s more complex issue than skewering the rich.  
 
 

[kayla.meyer_144]

How do you turn that around? By arguing for the “liberal’ policy of income equality and reducing the corrosive effects of money in politics and everywhere else. Creating laws this SCOTUS can’t corrupt with their stupidity and blind ideology, that’s how. Not by throwing up your hands & agreeing that all is corrupt, so why bother.

[100574]

The GOP support Putin  more imho
but let’s play devil’s advocate conspiracy:–Bibi upset about the Iran deal..has this recent trip to Putin and I wonder if he just let slip to Vladimir like oh your guy Assad is going down,our intelligence shows him collapsing..then Bibi leaves with take that Obama…friends how many of us have them..let’s be friends

[kaldridgewv2211]

Russia is also now airstriking Syria and I believe they asked for the airspace from the US.

[100574]

not hitting Isis though/helping Assad…all after Bib’s intelligence review of the situation concerning Assad..Putin like the GOP is in a Quagmire(he can’t lose Assad but the losses are evident/ Ukraine and the sanctions are hurting…turn to the GOP(the millennial generation ain’t buying your crap/the 50’s are over)

Quote from DICOM_Dan

Russia is also now airstriking Syria and I believe they asked for the airspace from the US.

[Unknown Member]

On the “wrong side of history” or the wrong side of popular culture? I think the latter. Only time will tell if it was wise to throw away time-tested principles, traditions, institutions and culture and steely resolve for vapid populism.

[Unknown Member]

On the “wrong side of history” or the wrong side of popular culture? I think the latter. Only time will tell if it was wise to throw away time-tested principles, traditions, institutions and culture and steely resolve for vapid populism.

[suyanebenevides_151]

Yes, alda, that’s the point.
 
I love how those who complain about income inequality are the very people (and yes, they are on this board) that talk as if the market has anything to do with the real economy and are so stupid to realize that the gov’t and fed/banking manipulation of the markets is precisely the reason why the income gap has dramatically increased … [b]under the Obama[/b] presidency.

[Unknown Member]

You ramble this stupid end of days mantra all the time
 
The Market and the economy are very intertwined
 
You have to be a moron to not see this
 
If it wasn’t fed manipulation you would search for another reason to project your end of the world scenario 
    
  Seriously Cigar with your Gold 3500$ comments just STFU about the economy because you just make yourself look like a dumb ideologue 
 
Basically you are chicken little
 
    
   

[suyanebenevides_151]

Stick to the topic. Fed and government manipulation leads to cheap money for rich people to make more and more on the banking and investment sectors, while devaluing the working man’s currency and making savings not only impossible, but also stupid.
 
The big boys also get bailed out, the common man doesn’t, so they have no risk and all reward. Small businesses also suffer from competition restriction when more and more guidelines freeze them out because they don’t have the leverage or lawyers to last. This is obvious to anyone that has a brain in the country right now.
 
Show me where any of those points are wrong.

[Unknown Member]

Your dodging
 
 
Your comment specifically said that markets have nothing to do with the real economy
 
That is a stupid statement by an individual that is looking for a doomsday scenario…………….aka You
 
And you know nothing about monetary policy….You were probably a huge fan of Carters inflation and 18 % interest rates…….Yeah that worked out well

[kaldridgewv2211]

there’s actually probably some truth to “markets have nothing to do with the real economy”, if you look at it as stocks tied to performance.  Look at something like Tesla which has negative earnings and is priced at $200+

[Unknown Member]

Markets reflect the economy

They usually are ahead of it.

When times are bad people aren’t working they aren’t making or buying anything and markets reflect that

Do they occasionally get out of whack yes but they always come back to reality

[Unknown Member]

The Market has skyrocketed during the Obama administration but if
you are in tune with the average middle class American, that has meant very little to them in terms of savings.  I was sure that the Obama administration was going to come hard after my class of wealth but it has 
been the opposite. My wealth and most in the top percentiles has grown tremendously.  I think you are out of tune with the average citizen that according to statistics makes 50 – 75K.  I think they are doing worse despite the market gains over the past 7 years.  I employ a large number of people and despite paying a more than livable wage, they could care less what the market is doing.  An increased market may reflect a strong economy to the wealthy but not necessarily to the majority of the middle class. I think you guys on this site are way out of touch with the middle class and don’t realize how fortunate you are despite all the decreasing salaries. And for the record I think that doctors are incredibly underpaid for their value to society.

[kaldridgewv2211]

Median income in the US is only in the 20s. If an average person is making 50-75 as you mention they’re actually way better off than many people. You are correct that the middle class of people haven’t seen the gains like Richard Rich investment bankers, or even doctors. If you make enough money just to live, you’re not really stashing away extra income into markets.

I do think people in general probably don’t realize how fortunate they are. I look at the threads on general radiology every now and again, I love the ones where people complain about not making huge pay days, woe be to me, hard to find a job, so much student debt etc…. It’s like welcome to life, if you can’t get by on a 6 figure salary too bad.

[kayla.meyer_144]

Median income in the 20k’s? Haven’t seen anything quite that bad. Per Capita is in that range but median income is in the $50-$60K range.
 
Census has it at $53K for median household income 2009-2013
 
[link=http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html]http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html[/link]
 
[link=http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/five-years-of-recovery-havent-boosted-the-median-household-income/]http://fivethirtyeight.co…dian-household-income/[/link]
 

Still, Tuesdays report makes clear how little progress the American middle class has made not just over the past few years, but over recent decades. Median household income was lower in 2013 than in 1989 and is 8.7 percent below its 1999 peak.

The pain hasnt been shared equally. The average income of the bottom fifth of earners has fallen 16 percent since 1999, compared to 2 percent for the richest fifth. The top 20 percent of earners accounted for 51 percent of all income in 2013, unchanged from 2012 and up slightly from 49.4 percent in 1999. The gini index, a measure of income inequality in which 0 represents perfect equality and 1 represents perfect inequality, was essentially unchanged in 2013 at 0.476. But it remains high by historical standards.
 
Tuesdays report did have glimmers of progress. The official poverty rate fell to 14.5 percent from 15 percent, and the child poverty rate fell for the first time since 2000. More people, and especially more men, worked full time in 2013. And fewer people went without health insurance.
 
But young peoples gains come with an important caveat: Household income figures are based on the age of the householder. So-called boomerang children, 20-somethings [link=http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/guess-who-cares-for-young-adults-when-they-move-back-home/]living in their parents basements[/link] because they cant find good jobs dont count as their own households and thus are left out of those numbers. (Their income still counts, but its part of their parents household income.)
 
[b]Big racial gaps remain:[/b] The median income of an African-American household was $34,600 in 2013, more than 40 percent less than the median non-Hispanic white household. The race gap has been little changed in recent years. It peaked at about 45 percent in the 1980s and narrowed to 35 percent in 2000, but has since lost much of that ground. More than a quarter of blacks live below the official poverty line, compared to 10 percent of whites.

 
This fits right in with the discussion on income inequality as noted in fivethirtyeight.
 
We have squandered our position in the world, hollowing out the middle class in support of the upper income groups. And we continue to blame the poor & poorer for their condition, if only they’d just work harder, like us here on AM, without recognizing that some of “us here on AM” are not earning specialist physicians’ salaries but technologists’ salaries.
 
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…he-worlds-richest.html[/link]
 

The American middle class, long the most affluent in the world, has lost that distinction. 
 
While the wealthiest Americans are outpacing many of their global peers, a New York Times analysis shows that across the lower- and middle-income tiers, citizens of other advanced countries have received considerably larger raises over the last three decades.
 
After-tax middle-class incomes in Canada substantially behind in 2000 now appear to be higher than in the United States. The poor in much of Europe earn more than poor Americans.
 
The [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/about-the-data.html]nu[/link][link=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/about-the-data.html]mbers, based on surveys[/link] conducted over the past 35 years, offer some of the [link=http://www.lisdatacenter.org/]most detailed publicly available comparisons[/link] for different income groups in different countries over time. They suggest that most American families are paying a steep price for high and rising income inequality.
 
The struggles of the poor in the United States are even starker than those of the middle class. A family at the 20th percentile of the income distribution in this country makes significantly less money than a similar family in Canada, Sweden, Norway, Finland or the Netherlands. Thirty-five years ago, the reverse was true.

 
 
    While we’re at it, let’s applaud Trump’s tax plan, more lavish tax cuts for the affluent, throwing a bone to the much less affluent & doing nothing for the less affluent or the economy. More Voodoo Economics as the solution.
 
Oh, ‘scuse me, it does create a $10 TRILLION hole in the deficit. That should stimulate the economy a lot.
 

 

[Unknown Member]

Of the course the markets have no real reflection of Middle class savings or their ability to save.
 
Markets reflect what can be bought sold and make a profit on therefore if goods are being made and sold at a profit you can bet your arse that someone is buying them so to say that they have no relationship to the economy…………………..is absurd

[kaldridgewv2211]

Quote from Frumious

Median income in the 20k’s? Haven’t seen anything quite that bad. Per Capita is in that range but median income is in the $50-$60K range.

Census has it at $53K for median household income 2009-2013

 
So you’re confirming what I said.  Per person median income is the $20s, and if you translate that to per household you get $50s ($53 per census).  That’s not even really enough to make a decent living in a place like Cleveland where things are more affordable than a NYC or LA.
 
I think that article you quote mentions that other nations have had wage increases that the US has not.  I think that’s part of the shock now when a city or state, or maybe even the Fed jacks up the minimum wage.  It probably should’ve been increasing the whole time.

[suyanebenevides_151]

Quote from IR_CONSULT

The Market has skyrocketed during the Obama administration but if
you are in tune with the average middle class American, that has meant very little to them in terms of savings.  I was sure that the Obama administration was going to come hard after my class of wealth but it has 
been the opposite. My wealth and most in the top percentiles has grown tremendously.  I think you are out of tune with the average citizen that according to statistics makes 50 – 75K.  I think they are doing worse despite the market gains over the past 7 years.  I employ a large number of people and despite paying a more than livable wage, they could care less what the market is doing.  An increased market may reflect a strong economy to the wealthy but not necessarily to the majority of the middle class. I think you guys on this site are way out of touch with the middle class and don’t realize how fortunate you are despite all the decreasing salaries. And for the record I think that doctors are incredibly underpaid for their value to society.

 
Your posts indeed show how guys like kpack are flat out dead wrong and it’s just super ironic. He screams and yells about the 1% and how we should do this that and the other and doesn’t realize that he doesn’t subject himself to those very policies; it’s always take it out on other people.
 
If you don’t realize that everything that Obama administration has done has made things worse for the people they “care” about, and better for those they claim to “go after” … you are just blind.
 
Yet I’m the crazy one.

[suyanebenevides_151]

Quote from kpack123

Your dodging

Your comment specifically said that markets have nothing to do with the real economy

That is a stupid statement by an individual that is looking for a doomsday scenario…………….aka You

And you know nothing about monetary policy….You were probably a huge fan of Carters inflation and 18 % interest rates…….Yeah that worked out well

 
[b]No, I said [i]these[/i] markets.[/b]
 
You are the one dodging and misrepresenting. Why is reading comprehension and logic so hard for the progressives here. It’s like there’s not someone on the other side saying something clear — they always respond with a different argument to try to confuse and conquer. It’s lame.

[kayla.meyer_144]

Outsourcing & Re-sourcing cutting taxes again and hollowing out the middle class. Why not just create jobs for Americans. But that means having to pay living wages. Nah. Socialism.
 
[link=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/opinion/sunday/the-hypocrisy-of-helping-the-poor.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…-helping-the-poor.html[/link]
 

The strategy of getting rich on cheap labor in foreign countries while offering a sop to Americas poor with charity seems to me a wicked form of indirection. If these wealthy chief executives are such visionaries, why dont they understand the simple fact that what people want is not a handout along with the uplift ditty but a decent job?
Some companies have brought manufacturing jobs back to the United States, a move called reshoring, but so far this is little more than a gesture. It seems obvious that executives of American companies should invest in the Deep South as they did in China. If this modest proposal seems an outrageous suggestion, to make products for Nike, Apple, Microsoft and others in the South, it is only because the American workers would have to be paid fairly. Perhaps some chief executives wont end up multibillionaires as a result, but neither will they have to provide charity to lift Americans out of poverty.

 
 

[kayla.meyer_144]

Interesting to see how Conservatives have changed so much these past decades since William F. Buckley was their hero. Also interesting is the relation of Buckley’s dubiousness about universal democracy in light of Bush II’s Iraq War which is demonstrated by Republican’s hostility to and about American democracy in elk and actions like voter suppression.
 
From The American Conservative:
 
[link=https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-did-buckelys-up-from-liberalism-age/]https://www.theamericanco…p-from-liberalism-age/[/link]
 

Recently I picked up as bedtime reading a book I hadnt looked at since the early 1960s. Im referring to Bill Buckleys [i][link=https://www.amazon.com/Up-Liberalism-William-F-Buckley/dp/161427925X]Up from Liberalism[/link][/i][i],[/i] which I bought second-hand in the original 1959 edition.
 
Elsewhere Buckley observed that, the commitment by the Liberal to democracy has proved obsessive, even fetishistic. It is part of their larger absorption in method, and Method is the fleshpot of those who live in metaphysical deserts. Even though democracy is a mere procedure, all the hopes of an epoch were vested in it. Buckley further attacked the idea that applying this method of rule to the entire planet as moral good and a scientific way of determining what is best for everyone as a delusion.
 
For a contemporary reader, it is hard not to notice that some of Buckleys positions have a faded look…once the Soviet threat receded from history, the conservative movement that Buckley fashioned lost much of its ideological glue. 
 
Buckley himself moved away from the anti-[i]Brown v. Board of Education[/i] stance he had taken in [i]Up from Liberalism[/i]. By the early 1970s he had become an ardent admirer of Harry Jaffa, who believed that American conservatism was identical with the defense of democratic equality. Buckley started [link=https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1970/12/03/unbuckled/]suggesting[/link] government programs for American blacks to compensate for the discrimination they had previously suffered.
 
[b]With the rise of the Trumpists, other Buckleyite positions once identified with the Right began to look shop-worn. In remarks in [i]Up from Liberalism[/i] about the mass suffering in Harden County, Kentucky, where coal mining has become unprofitable and a whole community is desolate, Buckley pooh-poohs the Liberal solution of immediate and sustained public subsidies. [/b]
 
[b]He opts instead for the conservative solution. [i]This recognizes that coal mining in Harden County was becoming unprofitable and therefore one would have to face up to that realism by permitting the marketplace through the exertion of economic pressure of mounting intensity to require resettlement. [/i][/b]
 
[b][u]Guess which presidential candidate in 2016 would have been more likely to hold that position? It was not the one who won and certainly not the candidate who was considered to be on the Right.[/u][/b]
 
Although its sometimes been observed that the more things change the more they remain the same, one wonders whether this applies to Buckley and his movement. Perhaps the opposite is true in this case. The more things change, the more they change.

 

[kayla.meyer_144]

Republicans don’t like history, at least not history as it happened. They prefer a “nicer” version that leaves the ugly parts out. It’s the history of unicorns and rainbows.
 
Right now the 1619 Project is in their sights.
 
What do you expect from anti-knowledge people.
 
[link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/08/20/project-far-right-fear-history]https://www.washingtonpos…far-right-fear-history[/link]
 

The project was deeply researched and fact-checked with the assistance of a panel of historians. Elements of it were conducted in collaboration with the Smithsonian Institution, a venerable pillar of American learning. Its a serious work of popular history that starts Americas clock four centuries ago. ([link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/american-slavery/?noredirect=on]The Washington Post published its own reckoning with 1619[/link].)
 
What followed was 250 years of brutal slavery the United States, then a century of de facto apartheid rule. Hannah-Jones, 43, stresses that she is part of only the first generation of black Americans born in a country where it was not legal to discriminate against them.
 
[b]But this reframing proved all too much for [/b][link=https://thinkprogress.org/african-americans-at-the-heart-of-american-history-the-countrys-euro-centrists-push-back-hard-b4576be3ec1c/][b]an assorted cast of American conservatives[/b][/link]. Newt Gingrich, a former Republican speaker of the House, [link=https://thinkprogress.org/african-americans-at-the-heart-of-american-history-the-countrys-euro-centrists-push-back-hard-b4576be3ec1c/]blasted the Times for printing[/link] propaganda. President Trump echoed the talking points of right-wing media, decrying [link=https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1163063723952676864]the zero credibility papers Racism Witch Hunt.[/link] And conservative pundit Erick Erickson [link=https://twitter.com/EWErickson/status/1163244123463327754]lamented the racial lenses[/link] that the project deployed to look at a history of black subjugation.
 
For right-wing nationalists, theres little room for the recognition of fundamental evil, of an original sin, in the founding myth of the nation. A [link=https://twitter.com/bhweingarten/status/1163157584469250049]commentator for the far-right Federalist website[/link] complained that the projects goal was to delegitimize America and further divide and demoralize its citizenry.”
 
[b]These battles over historical memory are hardly unique to the United States[/b]. In countries like Turkey and India, nationalist ruling parties have launched a steady assault on [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/13/erdogan-and-modi-arent-the-trumps-of-the-east/]the legacies of their republics secularist founders[/link]. Russian President Vladimir Putin has [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/06/13/putins-dangerous-campaign-rehabilitate-stalin/]sought to rehabilitate Joseph Stalin[/link], an epochal dictator with the blood of millions on his hands.
 
In Europe, far-right politicians routinely gripe about shouldering the stigma of their nations fascist pasts. A leader of Germanys ultranationalist AfD party in 2017 [link=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/18/afd-politician-says-germany-should-stop-atoning-for-nazi-crimes]bemoaned how the countrys focus on atoning[/link] for the horrors of the Holocaust rendered Germans a totally defeated people. That same year, Frances Marine Le Pen denied that the French should feel guilty in the present for the deportations of French Jews to their deaths in Nazi concentration camps.
 
If someone was responsible, it was those who were in power at the time, which is not France, [link=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/marine-le-pen-denies-french-guilt-over-holocaust-1.3045245]Le Pen said[/link]. France has been abused in the minds of people for years. We taught our children that they had every reason to criticize, to see only the darkest historic aspects. I want them to be proud of being French again.

 
 
MAGA!
 
What’s the basic premise of [b][i]Fahrenheit 451[/i][/b], Ray Bradbury’s 1953 book written in the McCarthy era? Destroy knowledge because “it makes people feel bad.” Not too dissimilar to Orwell’s book.
 
Knowledge is the real enemy.

[katiemckee84_223]

No, you prefer to leave out all the horrible history that you purposely don’t talk about regarding what you consider to be disadvantaged people, all the way from the muslim slave trade to denying who abolished slavery, the very christians you hate.
 
What’s more you deny the worst parts of history entirely, that your political kin of Mao, Stalin et al killed more people than ever before in the 20th century alone, and act like we should ignore that. You push the same agendas as they. No wonder antifa is the violent type, not the so called “right” that always is your bogeyman.
 
I don’t talk about Republicans, but I do talk about real world issues and history, and what it teaches us = what you support fails, causes chaos, and death ultimately.
 
Very rich.

[kayla.meyer_144]

Uh, clown history is not legitimate. Your hero, Putin, as the links specifically states is trying to rehabilitate Stalin back to national heroic status.
 
DUH!
 
Germany should not talk about the Nazis, makes everyone feel bad. He did makes the trains run on time though. Right to the death camps. I also think many Christians in very many European countries supported the Nazis and their train schedules.
 
France only had the French Underground, there were no collaborators and there was no Vichy. Saying so is unpatriotic. Again, Christian.
 
Slavers were Christians. Read your friggin history! Nuns were involved in selling slaves as well as famous American universities, Yeah, Muslims were involved but Christians were absolutely involved.  Exhibit #1, American slave owners were Christian & used the Bible to justify slavery. Just as ISIS does today when they justify it by looking back to the time of Jesus and the existence of slavery.
 
You are ignorant of history, cigar/IB, no way around that. The question is why, ignorant because you arent smart enough or deliberately?
 
And finally, domestic terrorism, all Christians I believe, have killed more people than Antifa. All these domestic terrorists were Americans. No?
 
How many died as a result of Antifa demonstrations again? Please tell me.
 
Noting Christian “collusion” in historic murders is not hating Christians, they were involved. Not anymore anti-German by noting Nazis started in Germany. Not anti-French by noting Vichy was a puppet Nazi government and many French were collaborators. Trying to argue Christians were not involved is just ignorant propaganda.
 
 

[kayla.meyer_144]

Domestic Terrorism and how Trump has mainstreamed acceptance of their hate filled ideas.
 
“Only in the Panhandle!” No, in America.
 
[link=https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.net/washpost-production/The_Washington_Post/20190819/5d5aee684cedfd0009552794/5d5c1eb6cff47e0009839e9f_t_1566318281569_master.m3u8]https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.net/washpost-production/The_Washington_Post/20190819/5d5aee684cedfd0009552794/5d5c1eb6cff47e0009839e9f_t_1566318281569_master.m3u8[/link]

[kayla.meyer_144]

Domestic Terrorism and how Trump has mainstreamed acceptance of their hate filled ideas. 
  
“Only in the Panhandle!” No, in America. 
  
[link=https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.net/washpost-production/The_Washington_Post/20190819/5d5aee684cedfd0009552794/5d5c1eb6cff47e0009839e9f_t_1566318281569_master.m3u8]https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.net/washpost-production/The_Washington_Post/20190819/5d5aee684cedfd0009552794/5d5c1eb6cff47e0009839e9f_t_1566318281569_master.m3u8[/link]
 
 

[kayla.meyer_144]

The focus on radical progressives by the media and some others spreading fear of Democrats is dead wrong. It is the reactionaries, the Republicans and Conservatives who have destroyed so much already and are working to destroy more that should be the concern. The Republicans are walking in lockstep for everything Trump does. So if it does clearly come out that Trumps phone call was a quid pro quo deal, you all think Republicans will be aghast & say thats a bridge too far?
 
Yeah, then I have a bridge I can sell you, cheap. They will support him, even to a so what! I did it! statement. They will back that statement up. After all, where are the Republicans who once said they would not support Trumps public declaration of gladly accepting foreign aid for the election now that it seems that it is Trump who is pushing that deal?
 
Quiet as church mice.
 
 

[btomba_77]

[h1][link=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-being-anti-science-is-now-part-of-many-rural-americans-identity/]Why Being Anti-Science Is Now Part Of Many Rural Americans Identity[/link][/h1] [h2]And why that will make communication around the next crisis so much more challenging[/h2]

Before the pandemic, Matthew Motta, a political science professor at Oklahoma State University, and his colleagues Timothy Callaghan, Steven Sylvester, Kristin Lunz Trujillo and Christine Crudo Blackburn [link=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953619303934]studied parents hesitancy[/link] about giving their kids routine vaccinations, like those for measles, mumps and rubella. Reasons varied, and the most prominent was conspiratorial thinking.[link=https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-being-anti-science-is-now-part-of-many-rural-americans-identity/#fn-1]1[/sup][/link] Some parents who delayed their childrens vaccines also held strong ideas about moral/bodily purity, which often correlated with higher levels of religiosity. Evangelical Christians, people who distrusted scientists and other experts and [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/19/conspiracy-theories-are-common-right-but-few-republicans-adhere-all-them/]people prone to believing in conspiracies[/link] were also among the groups finding a home in the Republican Party, too.
…

These patterns are partly explained by preexisting issues. People in rural areas hold old, well-known anxieties about scientists, particularly when the scientists come from the government. [link=https://www.covidstates.org/people]Kristin Lunz Trujillo[/link], a postdoctoral researcher with the COVID States Project, said this anxiety stemmed from an attitude that pits rural, hands-on knowledge against the kind of knowledge obtained from institutions like universities or government bureaucracies a kind of anti-establishment view that extends to scientists.

…

The key insight to all this work is that those who distrust vaccines, science and expertise arent doing so necessarily because they have a knowledge gap or a misunderstanding. Distrusting experts is part of their identity. Motta and his colleagues work [link=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21565503.2021.1932528]suggests that being anti-vaccine has become an identity[/link], too. In some respects, distrusting experts has become a political choice, which means that any message from an official source whether its a researcher, head of a government agency or a journalist is more likely to inspire the opposite of its intended reaction from those who view that source as part of the political opposition.

[/QUOTE]