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  • Posted by zhangjian_bj_543 on October 29, 2020 at 7:52 pm

    Now we can start to have a sense of how difficult it will be to maintain ABR board certification through OLA.
     
    Assessment will not be based on the absolute percentage of correct answers to all questions answered.
     
    It will be based on how you do among a subset of those questions deemed to be fair by peers.
     
    If you login, you may already see where you stand relative to the standard … percentiles are provided.
     
    Expect more buy-in now.

    satyanar replied 3 years, 6 months ago 16 Members · 34 Replies
  • 34 Replies
  • ranweiss

    Member
    October 29, 2020 at 8:26 pm

    Is anyone going to stand up to them at any point? this is getting ridiculous.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      October 29, 2020 at 8:33 pm

      How many of you are rating questions? Is this part of the feedback after each question? I skip that. Or is this on a volunteer basis that is something different? This is absurd.

      • JohnnyFever

        Member
        October 29, 2020 at 8:57 pm

        I don’t mind them. They are easy and usually take about 10 seconds to answer. Most seem relevant and fair, but there are plenty of “what am I thinking” questions and some questions that wouldn’t occur in the real world, like only giving you 1 slice when it would be very useful to have more pictures

        • Patrick

          Member
          October 30, 2020 at 4:15 am

          I am going to say the second positive thing I have ever said about OLA.  At least, now I get the reassurance of knowing how I am actually doing.  Or, I am misinterpreting the performance area of the dashboard?
           
           

          • susquam

            Member
            October 30, 2020 at 6:29 am

            I signed up to be a reviewer. You have to go through “training”- basically their idea of how to critique the questions.
             
            Similar to what rolecall said. Still too many questions where they are trying to get you. Who makes any call or decision based on a single CT or mri image? There are still plenty of questions where they do this and I can see someone getting it wrong for that reason. You show the whole series and no way that happens.
            One minute is also too short for most of the questions. Just too much pressure as soon as you open the question. They should all be 3 minutes.

            • Unknown Member

              Deleted User
              October 30, 2020 at 9:23 am

              If you are rating the questions and providing the ABR with feedback, you are acting as a consultant and should be compensated accordingly.

              • JohnnyFever

                Member
                October 30, 2020 at 10:00 am

                The compensation is valued according to the market. Since people are willing to do it for free, value is $0

              • laurence.stewart

                Member
                October 30, 2020 at 10:13 am

                Considering the question writers do it for free…

                • susquam

                  Member
                  October 30, 2020 at 11:04 am

                  The ability to maintain your certificate and ultimately work is based on these questions.
                   
                  If a question is bullshit everyone should let them know. Stop worrying about being compensated. I trust the opinion of someone spending their own time without compensation over someone being paid for an opinion any day. Similar to expert witness.

                  • leonardo.campos2804

                    Member
                    October 30, 2020 at 12:27 pm

                    As questions are administered, they are individually rated by OLA participants who have volunteered to be [link=https://www.theabr.org/blogs/dont-pass-over-opportunities-to-provide-ola-feedback]question raters[/link] and who are answering the same questions. The average rating for a unique set of questions administered to a specific participant is the passing standard for that participant. A diplomates passing standard is first calculated after they have answered 52 [link=https://www.theabr.org/blogs/scorable-questions-necessary-to-determine-ola-performance]scorable questions[/link].
                     
                     
                    everyone rate questions poor.  this is absolutely nuts.

                    • rwalmsley_851

                      Member
                      October 30, 2020 at 1:02 pm

                      I would imagine most people think…..If I get it right, it was a good question. If I get it wrong, it was a bad question.

                    • JohnnyFever

                      Member
                      October 30, 2020 at 1:14 pm

                      If you’re having trouble passing, maybe you need to read some more. Seriously these questions are so basic

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      October 30, 2020 at 2:03 pm

                      Quote from RoleCall

                      If you’re having trouble passing, maybe you need to read some more. Seriously these questions are so basic

                      Have to agree. Coming in 30% above passing. If someone is below they probably should be considered incompetent. 

                    • Patrick

                      Member
                      October 30, 2020 at 11:21 pm

                      I think that is harsh.  This is still a work in process.  There are definitely I gotcha questions, stupid single images, questions outside of peoples’ areas of practice (even when in their subspecialty), etc.  Individual anxiety, “bad” days, and the remote nature where in some may be cheating (doing questions in group, asking recent trainees, looking questions up) to the detriment of honest test takers–and I am one of those people that though t recall were actually good, as it forced us to learn and review high yield material.
                       
                      Again, I think this is an awesome learning tool.  I’d like to take as many questions as possible and learn from my mistakes, but I don’t appreciate the potentially punitive nature where in my job (which requires ABR cert) and my ability to bill some payors, MY LIVLIHOOD, are put at risk.  ABR cert should have stayed lifetime!  
                       
                      I welcome the real-time performance review…  Though I worry it may be falsely reassuring as I assume questions–correct or incorrect–that have not reached threshold are just kind of sitting in purgatory waiting to count for or against one…

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      October 31, 2020 at 7:00 am

                      Youre right. I admit to being intentionally harsh. I actually agree with all of you analysis. This could have been an excellent learning tool and there is no reason to attach a radiologists ability to do their job to the process, no matter how unlikely that would be. I have written letters to the ABR telling them such. I am participating in the question rating and giving poor scores to the questions you describe. This is one way we can control which questions go against us. I definitely had some I missed for the reasons you describe. I called them out. Maybe thats one of the reasons Im so far above the passion line?
                       
                      I was just trying to point out that despite all of its flaws, this process is very unlikely to discover any practicing radiologists that cant make the cut. I really would wonder about the competency of someone coming in under the target line.  

                    • mthx9155

                      Member
                      October 31, 2020 at 7:15 am

                      OLA doesn’t seem to weed out incompetent radiologists. It seems to be there to make the ABR feel like they’re doing something to weed out incompetent radiologists. 
                       
                      It’s part of the culture of awarding participation trophies regardless of achievement nowadays, where doing something, however ineffectual, is seen as better than doing nothing. It is the reason that administrative bloat in healthcare is reaching all time high. All it does is increase paperwork, useless requirements, and contribute to burnout. Keep in mind that the “just a couple short questions a week” is on top of the tons of other CME and other requirements we have to fulfill from hospital, state, national, pharmacy, etc. medical systems. Everyone wants a piece of the pie. 

                    • Patrick

                      Member
                      October 31, 2020 at 10:14 pm

                      Thread Enchancer,
                      Your typo: “passion line” instead of passing line is kind of cool phrase.  I might try and find a way to use it…

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      October 31, 2020 at 11:05 pm

                      I like it. Even when I get the answer right, I read the short summary explanation and often learn something. Its fairly fast. When I dont know the answer, I have time to do a quick Google image search and can usually figure out what the right answer is and I learn something in the process.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      October 31, 2020 at 11:08 pm

                      Just let me take an exam every 10 years

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      November 1, 2020 at 4:22 am

                      Quote from Flounce

                      I like it. Even when I get the answer right, I read the short summary explanation and often learn something. Its fairly fast. When I dont know the answer, I have time to do a quick Google image search and can usually figure out what the right answer is and I learn something in the process.

                       
                      Me too. What I hear is the angst from some that their career is on the line. While I get that concern and it is really unnecessary for the ABR to do its job, the chance of this happening is probably less than having a major lawsuit and career threatening misses that would cause extreme distress, especially if one cannot stay above the “passion line”. Take it as an opportunity for improvement before something really bad happens.

                    • rwalmsley_851

                      Member
                      November 1, 2020 at 5:38 am

                      Yeah the comments after the question and reference are nice. Good learning tool.

                    • erasmopa

                      Member
                      November 1, 2020 at 7:08 am

                      I am with those who say OLA isnt so bad. I do agree with qxrt that the overall administrative bloat in medicine is awful, filling out forms all of the time to renew licenses and hospital privileges, taking biannual stupid tests saying I can recognize child abuse, etc. But of all the fluff the OLA is not so bad.

                      I do believe that ABR should use it in a revolutionary way. Instead of being punitive towards physicians why not actually stand up for them and recognize them.

                      For instance, the next time I face some BS lawsuit why doesnt the ABR stick up for me and send a letter of support saying I am in good standing and over 50% above passing on OLA? Therefore even though I am sued for one out of every 100,000 cases I read they highly recommend against putting my name in a database labeling me as a bad physician.

                      The utter lack of support and recognition and the never ending crap paperwork make me think about ending my career. OLA not so much.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 1, 2020 at 7:42 am

                      Quote from Flounce

                      I like it. Even when I get the answer right, I read the short summary explanation and often learn something. Its fairly fast. When I dont know the answer, I have time to do a quick Google image search and can usually figure out what the right answer is and I learn something in the process.

                      Im grandfathered in; but still do MOC. 
                      I like the present format and look forward to the questions.
                      I dont get all the angst.  

                    • mthx9155

                      Member
                      November 1, 2020 at 9:55 am

                      Don’t get me wrong, I think the OLA questions in themselves are not difficult and kind of fun (they are similar to RadPrimer questions, which I enjoyed doing in residency). But I am frustrated with how every single regulating body feels the need to add on their own “small” requirement which does not show nor prove any practical utility, which also happens to come with its own “small” fee, and with the many certifications and licenses we are required to maintain, builds up to a mountain of “small” tasks and fees. 

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      November 1, 2020 at 9:59 am

                      Yes, my gripe as well. It’s the main reason I tell people when they ask if I hope my children go into medicine that I say no. It is still great for me but the small cuts and tasks, and fees are likely to get worse. I’m sure they would be fine from a financial standpoint. Not so sure about the job happiness part if more and more time is wasted away from patient care.

                    • cchandc

                      Member
                      November 1, 2020 at 8:22 pm

                      The vast majority of the questions are easy.

                      There are a handful of poorly written questions or questions that have no basis to every day practice, but these are In the minority and i rate them accordingly.

                      If you are missing too many of these, you probably really do need some kind of remediation.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 1, 2020 at 9:05 pm

                      Dont have the audacity to tell people what their kids want. 
                      Some want to help sick people: good for them.
                      We have our role as radiologists, when done right.
                      But a lot of it is worthless.
                      Just pays well; for now. 
                      a lot of great opportunities in medicine. 
                      just not rads at this time. 

                       

                    • Ali.zavareh

                      Member
                      November 2, 2020 at 4:32 am

                      Most Rads wouldnt complain about OLA if married to a family medicine physician like I am. Their CME and testing requirements are insane and they get paid like baristas.

                    • jennycullmann

                      Member
                      November 2, 2020 at 6:17 am

                      Keep up the complaints if only for the leverage it creates. The whole system is a sham. Regardless of how “easy” the questions are, remember that they can only hurt you, just like gomers. Telling people not to worry about it reminds me of the government spying and you telling your friend, “Well, if you have nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.” That’s not the point.
                       
                      Also, grading on any curve is preposterous. The claim is that a given rad is competent if he “passes” MOC. What does a rad’s competency have to do with other people’s answers? That’s what was always so dumb about any of these tests. My ability to recognize appendicitis or a hemangioblastoma is unrelated to another’s performance, who is not reading the screen in front of me. It’s bizarro-world.

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      November 2, 2020 at 8:09 am

                      So true about the curve. Any competency test should be written so those who pass get nearly 100% correct. To find the truly incompetent one must write a question that is so easy, only the incompetent would get it wrong. 

                    • kstepanovs_485

                      Member
                      November 2, 2020 at 6:07 pm

                      Quote from Casino Royale

                      Keep up the complaints if only for the leverage it creates. The whole system is a sham. Regardless of how “easy” the questions are, remember that they can only hurt you, just like gomers. Telling people not to worry about it reminds me of the government spying and you telling your friend, “Well, if you have nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.” That’s not the point.

                      Also, grading on any curve is preposterous. The claim is that a given rad is competent if he “passes” MOC. What does a rad’s competency have to do with other people’s answers? That’s what was always so dumb about any of these tests. My ability to recognize appendicitis or a hemangioblastoma is unrelated to another’s performance, who is not reading the screen in front of me. It’s bizarro-world.

                      100%

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      January 11, 2021 at 10:46 am

                      I agree that the whole thing is a sham. However, I do want to report my New Year experience. I quit taking questions in July or so since I had done well over the required minimum by that time. I started receiving the emails again last week. Jumped on today to see I had 8 available. Everyone was straight forward and relevant. I would say less than half were that way when I first started. I spent some time doing evaluations pointing out how poor the earlier questions were for assessing minimal competence. I have no if they read my responses but I am pleased to see the improvement.
                       
                       
                       

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      November 1, 2020 at 4:18 am

                      Quote from NYC

                      Thread Enchancer,
                      Your typo: “passion line” instead of passing line is kind of cool phrase.  I might try and find a way to use it…

                       
                      Touche!

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      October 30, 2020 at 2:02 pm

                      Quote from ghostofosler

                      I would imagine most people think…..If I get it right, it was a good question. If I get it wrong, it was a bad question.

                      You have to rate it before one knows the answer. 
                       
                      I mentioned here before that those who rate the questions should be hard graders and only give a thumbs up to very good questions that have obvious answers. I have given feed back many times about poor questions.