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  • Non Clinical Jobs

    Posted by eunjoli on November 22, 2020 at 10:01 pm

    Hi,
     
    I am curious what kind of options are available for rads who would like to increase income or be stimulated through non-clinical endeavors.
     
    I have heard many academic attendings have consulting gigs though I am unsure what type of consulting radiologists can get involved in. In any case, how does one find these opportunities?
     
    I’ve also heard a lot of non radiologists can get jobs as medical directors. I am unsure what being a medical director entails, but how can one go about finding these jobs as well? And can you do it as a radiologist?
     
    If anyone has any ideas for revenue streams outside of clinical work, please feel free to PM and advise.

    Unknown Member replied 3 years, 8 months ago 8 Members · 29 Replies
  • 29 Replies
  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    November 22, 2020 at 11:04 pm

    It seems that most rads can find ways to significantly add income;  or find gigs that provide much stimulation and enjoyment. But getting both seems like a tall order. 

    • Melenas

      Member
      November 23, 2020 at 4:49 am

      Im pretty sure there is nothing in terms of a side gig that will pay a radiologist salary. But if stimulation is what you want, probably lots of side gig. Just have to find what that stimulation is. My side gig is trying to make money on the stock market. Reading up on articles, talking with others and throwing money at it. It doesnt require sweat equity, going to an office meeting or endless hours of work. Let the market do all the work.

      Anything else requires lots of work for a very small return (relative to what a rad makes). Real estate, rentals, restaurant, expert witness, consultant etc.

      • btomba_77

        Member
        November 23, 2020 at 6:33 am

        Quote from peehdee

         there is nothing in terms of a side gig that will pay a radiologist salary. 

        This.
         
        Radiology is a 1% (maybe 2-3%) top income profession.
         
        People who make more money are law partners, own a successful business that employs multiple people, are senior executives in tech or finance, or are in the C-suite.
         
         

        • btomba_77

          Member
          November 23, 2020 at 6:36 am

          Being a “medical director” involves either being part of a group that holds a contract or winning the contract yourself.
           
          As part of a services agreement the hospital will provide some compensation to cover administrative efforts.    It is generally significantly *less* compensation then a rad would make doing clinical work generating revenue for the same number of hours.
           
           

          • ruszja

            Member
            November 23, 2020 at 6:58 am

            Quote from dergon

            Being a “medical director” involves either being part of a group that holds a contract or winning the contract yourself.

            As part of a services agreement the hospital will provide some compensation to cover administrative efforts.    It is generally significantly *less* compensation then a rad would make doing clinical work generating revenue for the same number of hours.

             
            If you limit your view to hospitals only, yes the directorships come with a service contract.
             
            There are many other types of medical directorships:
            – jurisdictional medical director for an EMS system. It means that all the EMTs and paramedics within the jurisdiction practice under your license and you are responsible to issue the set of protocols they are to follow and review cases where deviations from the protocol have occured. Most of those positions try to hire active ER physicians, but ultimately all they need is your medical license.
            – medical director for a nursing home. Again, you set policy and ensure that staff follows those policies. You are typically not the residents primary physician, you job is one of oversight. Most nursing home medical directors are FPs or IMs who deal with geriatrics, but unless there is a state level requirement, all they need is a medical license.
            – medical director for a medical spa. The technical staff and nurses act under your medical license when doing things that are considered the practice of ‘medicine’ rather than ‘cosmetology’ (e.g. the use of lasers, injection of fillers, botox).
            – medical director for a pharmaceutical or device company. You dont have to work for the company itself, at times this gets contracted out. Mostly compliance work.
             
            Most of these gigs exist because there is some kind of legal requirement for a physician to supervise somethingortheother.  For some of these, its just another way to get sued. As a nursing home medical director, you get named in every suit that deals with falls or neglect.

            Each of these directorships may only pay what seems like a small amount, typically they dont end up requiring a lot of work after everything is set up. Its like board positions in that sense, you get paid to sit in some quarterly meeting and put your name under lots of policies. So while the individual contracts may not look like much, for those who have established themselves, they can accumulate multiple contracts and create a steady nonclinical income stream that way.

            Odds are, you are not going to be EMS director  as a radiologist, but if you are tied in with an investor who owns a chain of medispas, you may end up supervising those.

            • Unknown Member

              Deleted User
              November 23, 2020 at 7:50 am

              If you want to increase income, best non clinical work would be litigation work.  Everything else, pays very little.
               
              If you want increased income through non radiology – Business endeavors and Investing depending on your risk tolerance.
               
              No advice needed to increase happiness through non radiology endeavors – simply do what you love from art to playing guitar.  

              • ruszja

                Member
                November 23, 2020 at 12:16 pm

                Quote from striker79

                If you want to increase income, best non clinical work would be litigation work.  Everything else, pays very little.

                 
                I have found that patent litigation is quite attractive. USPTO only needs someone ‘with ordinary skill in the art’, you dont have to be an expert. But that stuff comes to you, its not something you can seek out.

                • Jcbacoate

                  Member
                  November 23, 2020 at 12:49 pm

                  There are a number of non-clinical jobs that a radiologist could do (some already mentioned):
                   
                  Medical-legal work: There were expert witnesses I know of earning 7 figure salaries from this work, at least pre-COVID
                   
                  Medical Director (Insurance): Radiology Benefits Management Companies, Insurance Companies
                   
                  Medical Director (pharmaceutical industry), particularly with respect to imaging-related products such as IV contrast
                   
                  Medical Director in the start-up world, for example AI
                   
                  Reader for imaging core laboratories
                   
                  Obviously there are other less radiology or medicine-specific gigs one could pursue. The above are just some of the medical/radiological ones that come to mind.
                   
                   

                  • Unknown Member

                    Deleted User
                    November 23, 2020 at 1:12 pm

                    Quote from Bar Ami

                    Medical-legal work: There were expert witnesses I know of earning 7 figure salaries from this work, at least pre-COVID

                    Care to provide some evidence on this one?

                    • Jcbacoate

                      Member
                      November 24, 2020 at 7:30 am

                      Sure, I’ll go right ahead and name the people that I said I know of that have earned 7 figures serving as expert witnesses. And while I’m at it, I’ll provide you their addresses, social security numbers and bank statements.
                       
                       

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 24, 2020 at 7:38 am

                      Quote from Bar Ami

                      Sure, I’ll go right ahead and name the people that I said I know of that have earned 7 figures serving as expert witnesses. And while I’m at it, I’ll provide you their addresses, social security numbers and bank statements.

                      Naming them is not evidence. How do you know?
                       
                      I have never heard of a rad making that kind of money doing expert witness cases. I have done some expert witness work myself.

                    • ruszja

                      Member
                      November 24, 2020 at 7:58 am

                      A few people here seem to think that just because some things are outside of their scope of experience, it cannot exist. There is an entire world out there beyond the confines of your reading room. There are radiologists with cattle operations and thousands of acres of corn. Others who own everything from land development companies to blocks of section 8 housing and gas wells. None of this is going to be advertised and you wont find any ‘evidence’ outside of the corporate tax returns of those colleagues.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 24, 2020 at 8:03 am

                      [link=https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/medical-expert-witness/]https://www.whitecoatinve…edical-expert-witness/[/link]
                       
                      [ol][*]The median hourly fee for file review/preparation for all non-medical expert witnesses is $245.[*]The median hourly fee for file review/preparation for all medical expert witnesses is $350 (43% higher than for non-medical experts).[*]The median testimony hourly fee for medical expert witnesses is $500/hour.[*]The median testimony hourly fee for non-medical expert witnesses is $275/hour. [/ol] I think I charged 3-400 per hour.

                    • Melenas

                      Member
                      November 24, 2020 at 8:36 am

                      Do rads feel guilty trying to find faults into other physicians work? 
                       
                      I once heard someone say, do you know why doctors get sued? Because other doctors are willing to make money off of it. Lawyers never get sued by other lawyers. They know better. But some how there is always a doctor willing to comb threw the pile of evidence provided by trial lawyers for money.  Or is it a moral calling? Are some docs driven by justice for patient mantra to sue others? 
                       
                      I realize some of this chart review is to defend the doc. But I imagine there isnt that much work trying to prove the doctor didnt so anything wrong. 
                       
                       

                      Quote from drad123

                      [link=https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/medical-expert-witness/]https://www.whitecoatinve…edical-expert-witness/[/link]

                      [ol][*]The median hourly fee for file review/preparation for all non-medical expert witnesses is $245.[*]The median hourly fee for file review/preparation for all medical expert witnesses is $350 (43% higher than for non-medical experts).[*]The median testimony hourly fee for medical expert witnesses is $500/hour.[*]The median testimony hourly fee for non-medical expert witnesses is $275/hour. [/ol] I think I charged 3-400 per hour.

                    • seb_arrosa_904

                      Member
                      November 24, 2020 at 9:39 am

                      I wonder what the average is for a Vegas call girl and probably much more.  Some radiologists would rape their kids if they could make a profit so being an expert witness is no big deal.  Just awful

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 24, 2020 at 9:47 am

                      [link]https://www.seakexperts.com/specialties/radiology[/link]
                       

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 24, 2020 at 10:09 am

                      Lots of rads on this site. True to form. I wouldn’t trust a rad who wouldn’t stick a knife in my back

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 24, 2020 at 10:38 am

                      [i][link=http://seak.com/]SEAK, Inc.[/link][/i] is The Expert Witness Training Company. 
                       
                      Oh no! I did this without proper training!

                    • Melenas

                      Member
                      November 24, 2020 at 8:32 am

                      Well, thats the problem. This OP asked that question, yet we offer him/her no concrete ways to do it.  If there are these radiologist, who made it big outside, did they have help? We they never really into radiology to begin with? Luck? Ran into someone who wanted to invest? 
                       
                      Where can we get concrete evidence of rads making it big outside of grinding away at the PACS? 
                       

                      Quote from fw

                      A few people here seem to think that just because some things are outside of their scope of experience, it cannot exist. There is an entire world out there beyond the confines of your reading room. There are radiologists with cattle operations and thousands of acres of corn. Others who own everything from land development companies to blocks of section 8 housing and gas wells. None of this is going to be advertised and you wont find any ‘evidence’ outside of the corporate tax returns of those colleagues.

                    • ruszja

                      Member
                      November 24, 2020 at 9:01 am

                      Quote from peehdee

                      Well, thats the problem. This OP asked that question, yet we offer him/her no concrete ways to do it.  If there are these radiologist, who made it big outside, did they have help? We they never really into radiology to begin with? Luck? Ran into someone who wanted to invest? 

                       
                      The folks in the Ag sector obviously had a family background in that industry. Other than that, they just kept an open mind and were willing to spend time and money on something until it started paying off. E.g. you dont start out with a multi-agent real estate office, you start out by sitting through some classes and getting your RE license first. The expert witness stuff either comes to you unsolicited or you cold call the folks who do medmal work in your state.
                       
                      But no, there is no website I can send the OP to where he can ‘learn how to make $1000 per day working from home’.
                       
                       

                    • Jcbacoate

                      Member
                      November 24, 2020 at 8:49 am

                      Quote from drad123

                      Quote from Bar Ami

                      Sure, I’ll go right ahead and name the people that I said I know of that have earned 7 figures serving as expert witnesses. And while I’m at it, I’ll provide you their addresses, social security numbers and bank statements.

                      Naming them is not evidence. How do you know?

                      I have never heard of a rad making that kind of money doing expert witness cases. I have done some expert witness work myself.

                       
                      That’s fine, so you never made that kind of money doing that sort of work (neither have I). That “proves” nothing.
                      Now do you have any suggestions of substance to offer the OP? I suspect not…
                      Have a nice life.
                       

                  • Unknown Member

                    Deleted User
                    November 25, 2020 at 8:31 am

                    As I already stated, the only non clinical radiology job you can do that pays at least or more than you current hourly salary is legal work.
                    For the remainder of jobs  including the medical director ones mentioned above, expect $100/hr…$125-150 max if you are lucky
                     
                    Any business has the potential to make millions to billions – High risk, High Reward, that’s how it always works.  I don’t think anyone has enough side gig time to do a business.  The time to swing for the fences is before you started radiology, when you had no money.  If you fail in your business, just claim bankruptcy.  If you succeed, well done.  If you fail when you have money, obviously you are out all of your money.  
                     
                    If you want a little extra money, stick with CLINICAL radiology side work or legal work.  

            • Melenas

              Member
              November 23, 2020 at 8:33 am

              As radiologist we are very limited (especially diagnostics or even those in private practice who read only neuro, breast, MSK) in terms of what we can do in medicine. 
               
              I havent found any side gig that would allow me to supplement 1/2 of my income as a radiologist. If these side gigs exist, no one is talking a bout them. They are keeping it to themselves. 
               
              That being said, I think you have to just grind it out as a radiologist for a decade and then venture out. If you have a nest egg of 3 million (which is attainable if you invest and save), there is no reason you couldnt live off 1/2 of a full time partnership salary. Let the nest egg grow (leave it alone) and live off your 100 to 200k half time salary. Now you have lots of free time to fill in your other desires. It may not make a lot of money but at least it isnt dictating another report. 
               
              But without that initial nest egg (which just takes time and money), I think doing side gigs is not very practical financially speaking. 
               
               

              Quote from fw

              Quote from dergon

              Being a “medical director” involves either being part of a group that holds a contract or winning the contract yourself.

              As part of a services agreement the hospital will provide some compensation to cover administrative efforts.    It is generally significantly *less* compensation then a rad would make doing clinical work generating revenue for the same number of hours.

              If you limit your view to hospitals only, yes the directorships come with a service contract.

              There are many other types of medical directorships:
              – jurisdictional medical director for an EMS system. It means that all the EMTs and paramedics within the jurisdiction practice under your license and you are responsible to issue the set of protocols they are to follow and review cases where deviations from the protocol have occured. Most of those positions try to hire active ER physicians, but ultimately all they need is your medical license.
              – medical director for a nursing home. Again, you set policy and ensure that staff follows those policies. You are typically not the residents primary physician, you job is one of oversight. Most nursing home medical directors are FPs or IMs who deal with geriatrics, but unless there is a state level requirement, all they need is a medical license.
              – medical director for a medical spa. The technical staff and nurses act under your medical license when doing things that are considered the practice of ‘medicine’ rather than ‘cosmetology’ (e.g. the use of lasers, injection of fillers, botox).
              – medical director for a pharmaceutical or device company. You dont have to work for the company itself, at times this gets contracted out. Mostly compliance work.

              Most of these gigs exist because there is some kind of legal requirement for a physician to supervise somethingortheother.  For some of these, its just another way to get sued. As a nursing home medical director, you get named in every suit that deals with falls or neglect.

              Each of these directorships may only pay what seems like a small amount, typically they dont end up requiring a lot of work after everything is set up. Its like board positions in that sense, you get paid to sit in some quarterly meeting and put your name under lots of policies. So while the individual contracts may not look like much, for those who have established themselves, they can accumulate multiple contracts and create a steady nonclinical income stream that way.

              Odds are, you are not going to be EMS director  as a radiologist, but if you are tied in with an investor who owns a chain of medispas, you may end up supervising those.

              • jtpollock

                Member
                November 23, 2020 at 9:11 am

                Legal defense work. To pay must live with 10 miles of a major population and be really good at MR spine.

                • Unknown Member

                  Deleted User
                  November 23, 2020 at 10:38 am

                  Are there a lot of radiologists with an appetite for more work outside the 8-5  (or 8-7p some days) ?   I work less than most of my partners and the last thing I want to do in my time outside of work is more work. 

                  • Melenas

                    Member
                    November 23, 2020 at 10:55 am

                    Right!

                    Quote from Flounce

                    Are there a lot of radiologists with an appetite for more work outside the 8-5  (or 8-7p some days) ?   I work less than most of my partners and the last thing I want to do in my time outside of work is more work. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      November 23, 2020 at 11:09 am

                      I don’t know anything about being the medical director of a Spa or medicolegal work, but I have a friend in Ophtho who is director of a Spa and it seems to involve real work. I have an LLC for being a handgun instructor on weekends, but after costs I make around $30/ hr, i.e. the reward is non-monetary as I shoot every weekend anyway and enjoy helping people get started on the right track. 

                • ruszja

                  Member
                  November 23, 2020 at 12:10 pm

                  Quote from docholliday126

                  Legal defense work. To pay must live with 10 miles of a major population and be really good at MR spine.

                   
                  Or plaintiff work. You can live in BF nowhere, be a nuclear medicine specialist but thats ok as long as you can confidently talk about other peoples screwups in mammography 😉

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            November 23, 2020 at 12:02 pm

            Quote from dergon

            Being a “medical director” involves either being part of a group that holds a contract or winning the contract yourself.

            As part of a services agreement the hospital will provide some compensation to cover administrative efforts.    It is generally significantly *less* compensation then a rad would make doing clinical work generating revenue for the same number of hours.

            -Unless one is an academic dept chairperson.