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Marriage advice for a new graduate
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57 Replies
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Dumb question, but have you gone to counselling? I guess that would have to be via Zoom these days…
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Yeah, your marriage is over. And she will take 1/2 of what you make for however long you live. That’s just how it works. Tough luck. Make sure you dont knock her up during some reconciliation attempts, that just increases the financial damage and misery.
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Ask her why ? bring up the question of open relationship, ie ..seeing other people and staying together. Next time : Stay in an open relationship and don’t marry. Marriages are so 20th century and a defunct organization. Also, please visit marriage counseling if you have to salvage something.
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Oh, and now would be the time to discover your ‘love of teaching’. There are still some state universities that pay spectacularly poor for the work of a radiologist. Move, take a low paying university gig, look like a normal person, negotiate a lump-sum settlement. Then lay low for a few years and move to some lucrative independent contractor work.
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My experience:
Unlike guys, once a woman decides that she wants to leave a relationship esp marriage, it is 100% over. Nothing in the world will change her mind. You can probably drag it for another year or two by seeing a therapist or … but eventually it will fail.I know you are going through emotionally hard times and I’ve been there in thepast. But try to minimize your damages (emtional and financial) and just get out as soon as you can. People around you will delay the prices with good intentions but it will harm you more.
My 2 cents.
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Lock up your bank accounts and see a divorce attorney immediately.
The earlier you leave the less you will have to pay (unless you’ve gone over the lifetime alimony claims which exist in some states).
DO NOT get her pregnant.
Do not change the way you spend money.Maybe you can move to a state where the divorce laws are more favorable?
Don’t delay, divorce today! -
Yeah. It’s over.
Take your lumps right now. It won’t be too painful since you presumably haven’t accumulated much wealth yet.
Take a few years to work on yourself … and you can find love again should you choose to.
But if that description is accurate, there is no reason to stay.-
Maybe you can make her take half your student loans…
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Talk to a lawyer
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She prob paid for his student loan.
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Then maybe he gets the alimony.
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Once again, the only ones who win are the divorce lawyers. If getting a divorce, and if on speaking terms, work out a 50/50 asset split beforehand and present to lawyers. Much better than wasting thousands of dollars working it out in the courts.
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What’s her profession and how much does she make?
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“Pre-nup or no nup.”
Just have every male and female med student repeat that over and over and maybe someone will stop making this mistake.
It’s never been fair that a person can just up and decide one day they are “out” and I’ll take half your stuff “please and thank you.”
Some situations are more complicated than that obviously (ie. The OP having his spouse help him out financially at one point) but there needs to be more non-taboo, open talk with all future doctors about protecting all of their assets.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Just have every male and female med student repeat that over and over and maybe someone will stop making this mistake.
There was a female attending at one of my previous employers who had to pay her husband alimony. -
Hence me saying male and female.
It’s more common that males end up paying for a lot of reasons but certainly can be females too.
Female physicians are way more likely to marry a partner that is similar income.
Asset protection for all physicians of any gender, sexual orientation, etc should include education on pre-nups, alimony, child support, custody etc.
A lot of people dont even know what would happen financially if they got divorced, if they live in a “50% state”, etc.
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Quote from knightrider
Quote from Cubsfan10
Just have every male and female med student repeat that over and over and maybe someone will stop making this mistake.
There was a female attending at one of my previous employers who had to pay her husband alimony.
I have worked with several females who got taken by worthless slugs of husbands. Two were of the ‘football jock enjoying a life of fishing and hunting’ variety, the third had her pay his way all the way through a CPA credential before he decided to shack up with a younger woman while collecting palimony. Yes, numerically there are more men who get robbed by the divorce scam, but its certainly not an exclusive club. -
The marriage is over, but your future will be much better. It all depends on the state in which you reside.
Don’t get her pregnant. Get a lawyer. If your state is unfavorable (alimony state), use marriage counseling as a delay tactic and try to move her to a more favorable state.
If you do live in a favorable state, she may try to move to a state more favorable to her (alimony state), and she will be able to file there after establishing residency. So if she moves, file for divorce in your current state before her new residency is established. -
Very sorry about your marriage difficulties. I am not at all cynical about the institution, as some are. Despite its many hardships, it can be the most beautiful thing in the world . Clearly , there is a point of no return. You may already be there now, but marriages can , and do come back from the brink. If there is any chance your marriage can be salvaged , my advice would be to seek professional counseling. If you are a part of a faith tradition, your priest, pastor, rabbi , etc would be a good place to start. I would also caution you that taking marriage advice from physicians is about as treacherous, in general, as taking personal finance advice . We are not typically known for our success/expertise in these arenas.
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Get out ASAP. She ended it when she said she was taking you to the cleaners. As others said the sooner you do it the less damage it will be.
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I disagree with some. My wife and I hit some serious rough patches towards the end of my residency training. Some pretty awful things were said by both parties (including ‘i’ll take half your money’). Keep in mind that even in the least male friendly states, that’s not forever. Especially if you have no kids.
At the end of the day, I would say try counseling. People say crappy stuff when they are hurt. Some are more aggressive than others. And sometimes, it’s just not meant to work – and counseling can bring that to light also.
Regardless, no kids would be my advice for your near and distant future. -
If you like her, you may have a better relationship after you are divorced. One of my former partners hooked up with his ex about 5 years later, his comment when he walked into her house was something to the effect of ‘that’s a mighty nice house I bought for you’.
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Get a post-nuptial agreement right now. If she doesn’t agree, divorce.
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If you go the route if counseling , start moving money out of accounts that cant be easily discovered.
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Dude. Talk to friends and family, and please don’t listen to these people. They are just projecting their own lives onto yours, and you’re a complete stranger to us all.
I wouldn’t dare give you advice on something complicated like this.
Every situation is unique/different. -
Definitely don’t start doing shady financial things. Find a lawyer and ask them these questions.
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Your risk is financial
See 2 lawyers and ask the right questions with respect to what you are on the hook for and how that would change if you gave counseling a chance of a year or two
Ask what you can do to minimize alimony amount and duration
Knew a female anesthesiologist who dropper her call in the 2 years before she filled to a level where she owed him no alimony (and had a great lifestyle during the last 2 years of marriage )
Once finalized, she picked it back up.
Thats a strategy I would emulate as much as possible if you give counseling a chance.
Good luck and feel free to pm posters on here who may have experience.
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Quote from Voxeled
Dude. Talk to friends and family, and please don’t listen to these people.
Absolutely not. He is heading for a adversarial process that will take 3-5 years to resolve. The only people on his side are going to be his attorney, the attorneys paralegal and the attorneys investigator. Everyone else is on the opposing side, do not talk to them, do not even mention that you possibly could consider your marriage anything but perfect.
They are just projecting their own lives onto yours, and you’re a complete stranger to us all.
No projection here. Happily married to wife #1. If you practice medicine long enough, you tend to be a spectator on a few marriages falling apart. All of the things mentioned by contributors here are the things that make the difference between someone working until they are 70 while remaining in poverty and getting out of this predicament somewhat intact. -
Sorry to hear this. I’m still (usually happily) married to wife #1, but went through some rough spots over the years. Having 3 young kids forced us to work things out. Not sure if we would’ve stayed together if we didn’t have kids, but I’m glad we did.
Financially speaking, it’s pretty obvious that you’re going to lose half of your current assets, no matter where you live. I agree with the others that say you need to be careful. I don’t know if you need to do something as drastic as dropping calls or moving to academia to lower your income. And I’m not sure moving to a new state just to file for a divorce would actually hold up in court. As others said, alimony law is highly state-dependent, and in many states it’s a pretty standard formula unless you have a very unique situation. Only you know whether or not your marriage can/should be saved.
Good luck! -
Quote from vaporfly
And I’m not sure moving to a new state just to file for a divorce would actually hold up in court. As others said, alimony law is highly state-dependent, and in many states it’s a pretty standard formula unless you have a very unique situation.
Him moving wont make a difference, it would just force him to attend hearings in his old state. Moving the entire ‘family’ to a more beneficial state while dropping his income and encouraging the wife to work prior to a anticipated divorce may put him in a better long-term position.
And yes, all ‘marital assets’ are toast, and there is little difference between states on that (note ‘marital assets’, if one of you brought in property, that remains yours). But fresh out of training, he probably doesn’t have much built up yet. The risk you can affect is the damage to future income, the marital assets are a fixed damage. -
Not having kids anytime soon is good advice. Otherwise, consider all your options and get professional advice.
Many strong marriages do come back from the brink and if both sides are fundamentally good and invested in working things out, much can be overcome. Most successful Marriages are less about finding the perfect person for you than they are about flexibility, magnanimity, and effort.
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Good luck. Counseling can be helpful though doesn’t always change the outcome.
Financially it’s often not as bad as fw says, though rules are variable between states and depend significantly on how long you’ve been married. Get a good lawyer if it comes to that.
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You really expect good advice from your best Aunt Minnie buds
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Quote from SP333
You really expect good advice from your best Aunt Minnie buds
This is like substance abuse counseling in a bar [:D]-
Quote from fw
Quote from SP333
You really expect good advice from your best Aunt Minnie buds
This is like substance abuse counseling in a bar [:D]
I’ll drink to that-
Yikes. Note to self: WHEN you hit a rough patch in marriage don’t ask AM forum what to do.
I see where everyone is coming from and I honestly can’t say I generally disagree but OP is at a very stressful point in his life and my suggestions are to 1) log off of AM, 2) get counseling lined up, 3) do whatever is in your power to cool things off a bit. 4) try to not get tangled up in some emotional relationships at work or elsewhere (that’s a real risk).
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Great advice by radiologist x.
Try to record all encounters. Get cameras. I have known someone who got wrongfully accused and that was used as leverage , very strong leverage
You dont have kids therefore, you dont need to be amicable during divorce. Very different if you did.
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Ive seen some partners suffer. This is all still shocking to me.
The angst and required energy would make one think twice about getting married at all. But they all seem to get remarried, sometime more than once.-
Has anyone seen a marriage survive the spouse threatening to take the higher earner to the cleaners? I think that shows a level of hatred and selfishness that is beyond repair. This is different than a rough patch.
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Some people when angry will lash out and target what they think is the thing most dear to the, well, victim. In this case, the income that the OP worked a lifetime to achieve. But that may or may not be the real motivation here. Interesting that financial aspects of this sad situation are what most of you focus on.
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He has to focus on that as hes worked for years and its under direct threat.
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Has the OP been back or is this a troll post?
Lots of invaluable advice for any / all in marriage or those considering it
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Maybe, maybe not. But I’ll guarantee you that if he lawyers up and starts tinkering with assets and such, the marriage is over. And that might or might not have been inevitable.
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Quote from rayZor
Yikes. Note to self: WHEN you hit a rough patch in marriage don’t ask AM forum what to do.
I see where everyone is coming from and I honestly can’t say I generally disagree but OP is at a very stressful point in his life and my suggestions are to 1) log off of AM, 2) [u][b]get counseling lined up,[/b][/u] 3) do whatever is in your power to cool things off a bit. 4) try to not get tangled up in some emotional relationships at work or elsewhere (that’s a real risk).
[emphasis added]
Several posts have mentioned counseling.
Granted, my experience and the experiences of others I am familiar with are anecdotal but……
My advice to anyone who asks now is that if you’ve reached a point in your relationship where you think marital (or relationship) counseling may be warranted, you’d be better off spending your money on a divorce lawyer (if married) or just breaking up (if not married).
Yes, yes, yes….. I already *know* I’m an old, jaded misanthropic divorced guy. Just saying I have never known marriage counseling to lead to a resurrection of marital bliss. At best, there’s a slight chance you could get to a detente somewhat resembling the Cold War positions of the US and USSR of the 60s and 70s. Sound like a good way to spend the next 30+ years of your life? More likely is that you kick the can down the road a few years (or decades) and end up splitting eventually, ruefully wishing you’d pulled the plug sooner.
This is not a slam against counselors. It’s just that if you’re going to see a marriage counselor, you’re basically at the point where the two of you are trying to renegotiate desire and true, burning desire is non-negotiable. It’s either there or it isn’t and if it dies, it ain’t coming back.
But seems like everyone needs to reinvent the wheel on this and I get the impulse to exhaust every last possibility before throwing in the towel, so good luck OP. And the post about asking for marital advice on AM akin to seeking substance abuse treatment in a bar….. Yup!
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Counseling is likely something couples should consider once 3 yrs into a marriage. Just a check in
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Starting pp was tough for me, and I was not a great husband those days because I was laser focused on doing a good job/making partner,while getting us used to a new place. We got into fights and said mean things to each other, although we never mentioned the D word.
Saying this to push back against the notion that divorce is inexorable in your case necessarily. If your wife is not a mean vindictive jerk it’s easier to work things out. If you know her to be such then there’s probably not much you can do, counseling or not. I think you kind of know what type of person she is.
Give you and her grace. Flounce mentioned magnanimity. It’s not paradise on the other side of divorce, based on my “observational studies”, and I’m not even talking about money.
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Counseling makes sense if there are kids and it is necessary to keep the thing together until they are out of the house. Other than that, it’s like the FlexSeal guy keeping a boat with its bottom made from a window screen afloat.
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Quote from wisdom
Counseling is likely something couples should consider once 3 yrs into a marriage. Just a check in
On that note; everyone could use therapy.
EVERYONE. -
We’ve been living through years of wealth and people ended up believing in nothing but money and law. Thus, this thread.
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[Deleted by Admin]
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Combining law/power with irrationality … always a recipe for disaster.
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Assuming you make more than her, the earlier you get a divorce, the better off you’ll be, financially speaking. My understanding is that alimony is based on income differential x time.
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10 years seems to be a common benchmark for whatever reason. Often you are only on the hook for spousal support for half the length of the marriage if the marriage was less than 10 years.
Again, need to find a good lawyer ASAP and find out the details.
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1) get an attorney today… do not wait. There are things you must do now to protect yourself.
2) seek counseling now.
(Prepare for the worst – hope for the best)3) Keep your eyes and ears open. I found my ex was going to empty our accounts the next day – I beat her to it. I removed 1/2 of our assets into my account. I found she was having an affair. When she demanded full custody, I said “well, that’s too bad, I wanted to keep this amicable, but if that is the route you will go, we will have to discuss your affair in open court”. Infuriated her, but protected my parental rights, and decreased child support.
4) Be quietly relentless. Calm yourself. proceed with a plan to protect yourself (even if at her expense) ruthlessly, but quietly.5) BE AWARE she may try to provoke you into a physical confrontation. Mine did. When she did, I gained great satisfaction in denying her this tool in court.
6) If it is legal in your state, you may want to put your phone on voice memo whenever discussing something with her. She may reveal something she would deny later.
7) if you can, gain access to her email account and social media accounts. (check the legality of this). Monitor it. Sounds horrible, I know, but as above you need to be ruthless. It is only unethical if you use it for the wrong purposes. In my case, I used it to protect myself from her excesses. I did not use it to hurt her. (yes – that took some self restraint). The information I gained in this way may have kept me from losing millions to her. It also prevented her from moving the kids out of state.8) – I did not move out of the home. It was MY home, too. Had I done that it would have allowed her to drag out the proceedings as much as she liked. She was furious that I wouldn’t move out. She said it was hard on the kids. I told her she was free to do that. She regarded it as my duty. ****. With me in the home, she felt pressure to get the thing done, and I probably got better concessions in the negotiations. BUT be careful – she might try to get you to hit her, or she may concoct a fake abuse situation.
9) consult your attorney… but, don’t start dating (or – you know – sleeping with someone) right now, regardless of how lonely you feel. Seek out appropriate social outlets to relieve the pressure on you. Do things that you have always wanted to do but she wouldn’t. Maybe an adventure vacation of some sort…My friends were a life saver. Let them know what is going on with you and you may be surprised how much caring is directed your way. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Promise yourself a nice gift of some sort – vacation, big toy, or girlfriend – to help you get through this.My ex was a radiologist also. She decided to go part time 6 months before she filed, reducing her income substantially. at the time, I was trying to be a supportive husband, so I thought it might help the marriage. Because of the difference in income (it had been equal) she got $2500 in child support. A few months after the divorce she went back to full time. I wanted to go back to court to change the amount. The rule is – if you get the amount changed, you cannot retroactively reduce it. Which means that she could drag it out for 4 years, and collect the child support and not have to pay me back, despite the fact that she was making the same as me for that 4 years. Her attorney was skilled in getting 6 month continuances. Learn from this.
These were the worst days of my life. Immediately followed by some of the BEST days. The joy I found in being with other women who really liked me was rejuvenating. They were FUN. I was FUN. And, as a new attending, you will be surprised at the attention you will get. Just DO NOT get into a rebound relationship. Five years at the minimum. Counseling for me was crucial at this point, as I was able to identify personalities I was attracted to for the wrong reasons, and avoid a repeat.
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Quote from RadiologistX
1) get an attorney today… do not wait. There are things you must do now to protect yourself.
2) seek counseling now.(Prepare for the worst – hope for the best)
3) Keep your eyes and ears open. I found my ex was going to empty our accounts the next day – I beat her to it. I removed 1/2 of our assets into my account. I found she was having an affair. When she demanded full custody, I said “well, that’s too bad, I wanted to keep this amicable, but if that is the route you will go, we will have to discuss your affair in open court”. Infuriated her, but protected my parental rights, and decreased child support.
4) Be quietly relentless. Calm yourself. proceed with a plan to protect yourself (even if at her expense) ruthlessly, but quietly.
5) BE AWARE she may try to provoke you into a physical confrontation. Mine did. When she did, I gained great satisfaction in denying her this tool in court.
6) If it is legal in your state, you may want to put your phone on voice memo whenever discussing something with her. She may reveal something she would deny later.
7) if you can, gain access to her email account and social media accounts. (check the legality of this). Monitor it. Sounds horrible, I know, but as above you need to be ruthless. It is only unethical if you use it for the wrong purposes. In my case, I used it to protect myself from her excesses. I did not use it to hurt her. (yes – that took some self restraint). The information I gained in this way may have kept me from losing millions to her. It also prevented her from moving the kids out of state.8) – I did not move out of the home. It was MY home, too. Had I done that it would have allowed her to drag out the proceedings as much as she liked. She was furious that I wouldn’t move out. She said it was hard on the kids. I told her she was free to do that. She regarded it as my duty. ****. With me in the home, she felt pressure to get the thing done, and I probably got better concessions in the negotiations. BUT be careful – she might try to get you to hit her, or she may concoct a fake abuse situation.
9) consult your attorney… but, don’t start dating (or – you know – sleeping with someone) right now, regardless of how lonely you feel. Seek out appropriate social outlets to relieve the pressure on you. Do things that you have always wanted to do but she wouldn’t. Maybe an adventure vacation of some sort…My friends were a life saver. Let them know what is going on with you and you may be surprised how much caring is directed your way. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Promise yourself a nice gift of some sort – vacation, big toy, or girlfriend – to help you get through this.
My ex was a radiologist also. She decided to go part time 6 months before she filed, reducing her income substantially. at the time, I was trying to be a supportive husband, so I thought it might help the marriage. Because of the difference in income (it had been equal) she got $2500 in child support. A few months after the divorce she went back to full time. I wanted to go back to court to change the amount. The rule is – if you get the amount changed, you cannot retroactively reduce it. Which means that she could drag it out for 4 years, and collect the child support and not have to pay me back, despite the fact that she was making the same as me for that 4 years. Her attorney was skilled in getting 6 month continuances. Learn from this.
These were the worst days of my life. Immediately followed by some of the BEST days. The joy I found in being with other women who really liked me was rejuvenating. They were FUN. I was FUN. And, as a new attending, you will be surprised at the attention you will get. Just DO NOT get into a rebound relationship. Five years at the minimum. Counseling for me was crucial at this point, as I was able to identify personalities I was attracted to for the wrong reasons, and avoid a repeat.
Great advice X
Get a BULLDOG of a divorce attorney – it is adversarial for sure. After talking to an attorney, consider cancelling all credit cards before she runs up big bills, move all joint money to an account only you control – this isn’t to hide anything, as it will all come out, but to assure it doesn’t disappear. You will need to giver her money to live, but document all. AGAIN – LAWYER IMMEDIATELY-
Lots of good advice already given. I echo the comment you will need a post nuptial. After what she said, I don’t see how you can trust her without one. Lots of marriages have rough patches and work themselves out, you have a lot of stress on yourself as a new attending. l would do counseling first and then through the course of counseling make it apparent that you cannot gain the trust needed in the relationship without a post nuptial, and perhaps she will sign one then if she really wants to work on the marriage. A lot of people throw in the towel early. You should start counseling tomorrow to find out if this marriage can be healed or not – the longer you wait, the more she will get if she divorces later. This may work in your favor if the counseling works and you get a post nuptial out of it – no way you would get a post nuptial any other way, and you should have gotten a prenuptial if there was a big disparity in income. Best of luck.
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Quote from confused11
……. My brain tells me to pre-emptively leave the marriage, but my heart says otherwise…I feel a tremendous amount of guilt leaving her; she provided for us when I was still a medical student and I feel that she is a genuinely good person. ……
Get over the guilt; it’s only going to cost you. Your wife decided several years back that she was through and has been sticking it out to collect what she’s “entitled” to.
Lots of advice already on this thread. The happily married will deride much of it as cynical; those of us who’ve been through the family court grinder read it and try not to have PTSD-like flashbacks.
Going through a divorce was, hands down, the worst experience of my life. Now, almost 10 years further on, I’m in a much better place and life looks good. You’ll get through this and be OK, and please don’t choose a permanent solution to a temporary problem. If you know it’s over, get out sooner rather than later and start re-building your life. Our time on earth isn’t a practice round and, religious teachings to the contrary, you don’t get to do it over.
Good luck.
