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Isis really not so bad
sure they behead a few here and there. But these are just individuals. Highly publicized, but many more are dying.
They burned one man – one man – and somehow Jordan is suddenly energized to take care of this threat in their own backyard and not rely on us.
They are selling children into slavery, and having mentally deficient children perform suicide bombings. They reportedly have crucified numbers of children and buried them alive.
But, really this isn’t so bad. he President has put this all in perspective. You see, Christians can be really bad people too.Unless we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember, during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ, Mr. Obama said. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often [were] justified in the name of Christ. It is not unique to one group or one religion. There is a tendency in us, a sinful tendency, that can pervert and distort our faith.
So, really, Isis isn’t so bad. Guess we should just close our eyes to this.
The man is a total fool. An embarrassment to the country
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87 Replies
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The Left simply loves moral relativism. There are no good guys or bad guys in any conflict. Everyone is on equal moral ground. Until they kill you.
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What exactly offends you in the quote provided?
Furthermore what exactly is untrue?
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Let’s take a snipit from a speech……..and take it completely out if it’s context……and then let’s fake outrage
If I was in a different mood I’d probably tell you to STFU, take your hands off your Johnson and do something useful
But today I’m just amused that someone’s feathers are so ruffled about absolutely nothing
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I do not see any way to get from the quote provided to the title of the OP.
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Everything he said is true. More people have suffered/died thanks to the wonderful fairy tails that are man made religion than anything else in human history.
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Bad things have been done in the name of all sorts of things, religion, science, unrequited love, hubris, vanity, narcissism, and probably the heartbreak of psoriasis. Many horrible crimes were committed in the name of Christ, which I think my dear distant cousin would have deplored. And we all know about some of the bad behavior of Europeans of years past. I’ve lost more relatives than most of you from the last two.
But Mr. Obama was in essence equating the CURRENT murderous behavior of those he can’t make himself call Islamic Extremist Terrorists to stuff that happened a VERY long time ago. In doing so, he is excusing it, saying, “You sanctimonious Christians weren’t such goody-two-shoes yourselves.” His exact words were:
[blockquote]And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.
[/blockquote] Notice how he doesn’t mention our ally Germany and their minor infractions of human rights from not all that long ago. Selective memory? Alzheimers? Too much choom?
If you don’t see the problem with what is essentially a straw man argument, you should. It was a complete non-sequitor, a way to avoid dealing with the real problem by saying, “you folks were just as bad.” Very immature, very deceptive, very manipulative. What a surprise.-
Once again Dalai is offended the full laundry list of horrors committed is not mentioned. Fine the Nazis as well as the Ottomans should have been covered for their despicable acts as well….happy now. Oh he didn’t mention all the human rights violations and aparthied system of Israel either…
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+2 Dalai.
Obama’s moral equivalence argument is a cowardly way of avoiding use of the term “Islamic Radicalism”. He sure is willing to refer to Tea Party Americans as extremists, and terrorists, but when it comes to dealing with Islamism, he resorts to a 1,000 year old historic straw man. A moral coward.
Sir, I knew Abraham Lincoln, and you are no Abraham Lincoln. -
Dalia
You took a snippet of a speech or commentary and extrapolated it to mean what you want
This is how you are choosing to interpret things
Basically how I read it is this way….
Religious extremists do crazy stuff. This not new
And also Dalai……
Referees my memory. When exactly did hitler invoke Christianity to facilitate genocide
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Specifically Dalai
When did hitter invoke Christianity to advance his agenda?
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Again I read that quote as saying
The crazies in the Islamic world pervert their religion just like the crazies in Christianity pervert their religion by blowing up Abortion clinics
Seriously, what exactly is the difference?
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If that’s moral equivalency……..then please count me in
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Nobody said anything about Hitler and Christianity. You might need to take a break from the screen.
And yes, Mr. Obama is indeed saying that there are crazy Muslims that pervert their religion, as some crazy Christians have done in the past. Now ask yourself [i][b]WHY [/b][/i]he needed to say that at this juncture… -
Exactly Dalai
You are the one that brought the holocaust up
Obama didn’t
I didn’t
No one on this thread did but YOU
WTF
“WHY he needed to say that at this juncture”
Ummmmmmmm given the context of the snippet he appeared to be saying that extremists in religions doing terrible things in the name of their religion is nothing new
And he is right
Why are you so offended by this?
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I brought up the Holocaust because Mr. Obama chose to ignore that particular exercise in fanaticism and concentrate on Christian fanaticism.
WHAT does he accomplish by equating Muslim fanatics to Christian fanatics? Can we not simply deal with the problem at hand and not go out of our way to equate it to stuff that happened a long time ago? -
Well
Unlike you and the starter of this thread I did not read the entire context from which this snippet or sound bite was extracted from
But I presume the point that Obama is trying to make I’d this…..
Extremist perverting religion is not new
Just because there are some extremist who disgrace their religion by committing horrendous acts in the name of that religion does not necessarily mean that the religion itself and everyone who follows that religion is evil
His statement is about extremism and painting an entire religion with a broad brush
Does that conflict with your agenda is the question I’d like to ask
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Furthermore Dalai
What I believe Obama is now trying to do is to force Muslim Clerics to stand up and condemn these acts of terror.
By doing what they have been doing to the Japanese individual the Jordanian individual and in France they are creating a lot of negative PR fir themselves
Actually what Obama is doing and saying is quite smart……he is attempting to give Islam a chance to isolate and eliminate their extremist
Take the blinders off for a second and think about this
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I think he is trying to tell the mainstream Muslim world and clerics in particular that they need to condemn and ostracize these crazy zealot
Why do you feel that is the wrong thing to do?
Would you prefer he says……I would like to eliminate the Muslim religion from the planet
Well that’s not going to happen so I think he is pursuing the proper course
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The Great Orator has a bad habit of saying things that can be interpreted quite a number of ways, particularly when off-teleprompter. He also said this in the same speech:
We are summoned to push back against those who would distort our religion for their nihilistic ends.
OUR RELIGION? What religion might that be? -
See I take the use of the word our to mean
ONE’S Religion
You take it to mean he is clamping it as his own.
Ok assuming you are correct
What is wrong with this statement
We are summoned to push back against those who would distort our religion for their nihilistic ends.
Seriously…..even if he was to be a Muslim…..what is wrong with that statement
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What is wrong with the statement is that it suggests the gentleman IS a Muslim, pretending to be a Christian.
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If what you believe is true, then I agree with you because he would be outright lying
But I don’t think that’s what is going on
I believe he is simply stating if in ones religion extremists are using their god to advance their agenda then we must push back against them
Example Christian clerics should condemn bombing of abortion clinics and Muslim clerics should condemn terrorists acts as well because both are wrong and against the fundamental premise of religious teachings
That’s how I read into it
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I certainly agree completely that clergymen of all faiths should preach loudly and repeatedly against the sin of violence. But I am not sure that’s what Mr. Obama meant.
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Another manufactured crisis twisting Obama’s words to mean something entirely different from his context merely to suit political ends by those who hate Obama.
The Right has entirely too much idle time on its hands. As they say, “Idle hands are the Devil’s playground.
[b] [link=http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Timothy-5-13/]1 Timothy 5:13[/link] [/b]
And withal they learn [i]to be[/i] idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. -
I think there are a lot of folks, from Mr. Obama on down, who could benefit from that advice.
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As we speak, around the world, we see faith inspiring people to lift up one another — to feed the hungry and care for the poor, and comfort the afflicted and make peace where there is strife. We heard the good work that Sister has done in Philadelphia, and the incredible work that Dr. Brantly and his colleagues have done. We see faith driving us to do right.
But we also see faith being twisted and distorted, used as a wedge — or, worse, sometimes used as a weapon. From a school in Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith, their faith, professed to stand up for Islam, but, in fact, are betraying it. We see ISIL, a brutal, vicious death cult that, in the name of religion, carries out unspeakable acts of barbarism — terrorizing religious minorities like the Yezidis, subjecting women to rape as a weapon of war, and claiming the mantle of religious authority for such actions.
We see sectarian war in Syria, the murder of Muslims and Christians in Nigeria, religious war in the Central African Republic, a rising tide of anti-Semitism and hate crimes in Europe, so often perpetrated in the name of religion.
So how do we, as people of faith, reconcile these realities — the profound good, the strength, the tenacity, the compassion and love that can flow from all of our faiths, operating alongside those who seek to hijack religious for their own murderous ends?
Humanity has been grappling with these questions throughout human history.
And here is the lead in that Dalai completely ignores…gee wonder why
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Quote from DoctorDalai
The Great Orator has a bad habit of saying things that can be interpreted quite a number of ways, particularly when off-teleprompter. He also said this in the same speech:
We are summoned to push back against those who would distort our religion for their nihilistic ends.
OUR RELIGION? What religion might that be?
He and I dont seem to have the same religion. My religion hasn’t burned anyone on the stake in something like 300 years and I dont see any of my religious leaders advocating to start now. -
He mentions Christianity with regards to the Crusades about a thousand or so years ago but refuses to say muslim extremists.
He claims that he has to close GITMO because it is a recruiting tool for terrorists. There were terrorists before GITMO. No, your words equating the crusades to the current terrorists are the greatest recruitment poster available. Moral relativity from a man with no morals. How ironic. I can see it now “They did it to us so we are justified in doing it back to them”. Eye for an eye.
What a POS for POTUS. -
Obama – “err, what I really meant to say is …” Please interpret the erudition that has been bestowed upon us by the pedantic professor.
This guy is really an empty vessel onto which the weak-minded pour their hopes and wishes. The sound of a fart comes out of his mouth, and kpack hears beautiful music. -
What about those who bomb abortion clinics and target physicians in the name of god
I guess that’s ok……or maybe it’s just different
You guys are obviously my moral superiors
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Quote from kpack123
What exactly offends you in the quote provided?
Furthermore what exactly is untrue?
You REALLY need me to write it down…
REALLY?
ok
“Let’s not get on our high horse here – keep in mind that you, Sardonicus — your father cheated on your mother, and so he wasn’t so good either”
The truth or falsity of the statement (which Mr. Obama does have trouble with at times) is in this case, completely irrelevant. A straw man argument. The issue is that instead of providing any sort of remedy for this situation, any leadership at all, he is saying that we should not be so provincial, we should have the nuanced view, as he does. We are all bad. So we shouldn’t react so intensely when we see Muslims acting badly.
Well, I am not bad. I have nothing to do with any of those issues he innumerates. Perhaps he has some guilty conscience that prevents him from aggressively responding to evil, but I don’t.
The man is a fool.
Condescending to Americans by reiterating that not all Christians are or have been perfect throughout history in an environment where people are losing their heads on camera, are being burned in cages, and are being gunned down in their offices, markets and cafes by Islamic jihadists is weird and unbecoming.
Its also self-defeating. A man telling his girlfriend or wife to calm down is a horrible way to resolve conflict. President Obama reacts to things such as the burning of the Jordanian pilot in the cage by telling Americans to calm down. It has precisely the opposite effect. It makes those alarmed by such human rights violations and the threat they represent to American interests think that they are in an even more desperate situation. Following up the demand to calm down by bringing up past grievances (that are literally hundreds of years old and told dangerously out of context) is just another bad relationship cliche. Enough.
[link=http://thefederalist.com/2015/02/06/lets-face-isis-reality-and-drop-the-sophomoric-armchair-theologizing/]http://thefederalist.com/…armchair-theologizing/[/link]-
[b]You REALLY need me to write it down… [/b]
[b]REALLY? [/b]
[b]ok [/b]
[b]The truth or falsity of the statement (which Mr. Obama does have trouble with at times) is in this case, completely irrelevant. A straw man argument. The issue is that instead of providing any sort of remedy for this situation, any leadership at all, he is saying that we should not be so provincial, we should have the nuanced view, as he does. We are all bad. So we shouldn’t react so intensely when we see Muslims acting badly. [/b]
[b]Well, I am not bad. I have nothing to do with any of those issues he innumerates. Perhaps he has some guilty conscience that prevents him from aggressively responding to evil, but I don’t. [/b]
[b]The man is a fool. [/b]
Well The fool is the individual….specifically you…. who takes 3 sentences out of a speech very selectively I might add and attempts to distort the meaning of the entire speech
You take out of context to a new level. I mean this was a few words out of context in a 5-10 minute speech, but that is an entirely different story.
And you right wing nuts have no understanding of the mid east.
They do not love us. They do not trust us. Beating them over the head is not going to convert them to liking us and we DO NOT have the wherewithall to destroy them…….So we must coexist
What I believe Obama and his administration is trying to do is to get the moderate muslim world firmly on the rest of the worlds side and quit supporting or even pacifying the extremists. With the recent events in France and against japanese and jordanian Nationals the climate is ripe to ostracize ISIL and the Islamic extremist.
What Obama is doing is saying We all have extremist who distort our faith and harm others in the process. We all must stand togethert against extremism
You right wing nuts are wrong on this and I firmly believe time will prove Obama correct on this one.
Reminds of all the FOX news and right wing love for Putin about a year ago……How’d that short sightedness work out for you.
DUMBARSES
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We have been nothing but wide-eyed innocent actors with clean hands on the stage of the world since WWII, being persecuted by ISIS’s snuff videos on YouTube.
We don’t show snuff films of beheadings or burning people alive but even George W. Bush lamented our supporting dictators who murdered their own people in horrible ways. See Saddam, the Shah, Syria, Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, el Salvador. We did however post photos and videos of Abu Ghraib, for example.
The argument is not about us as pure innocent saints wearing halos & hearing angelic choral music wherever we walk.
Islam is not inherently evil as Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism or everyone else is saintly. They, the Muslims do have a problem of “allowing” the murderous extremists taking over their religion & portraying it as murderous & intolerant & ignorant. But the Muslims I know aren’t murderous. -
[b]The issue is that instead of providing any sort of remedy for this situation, any leadership at all, [/b]
I needed to specifically respond to this statement. It actually ticks me off
You provide a 3 sentence soundbite blurb that you Paraphrase from a right wing web site and then make all these claims
First off What the F is your plan or your parties plan aside from being anti obama on everything………….Yep thats what I thought. You have no fng plan.
How may I ask can he offer a remedy when you only listen to 3 sentences from a 5 minute plus speech?
You are hearing what you want to hear and furthermore you are being influenced by political propaganda
When I first read your post I had no idea that your quote was from the National Prayer breakfast and was also a hot topic on the Right wing talk shows and talking point. I had no idea Dalai plagarized the moral equivilency phrase from none other than whack job Rick Santorum ( a guy that ran for president after losing the senate in Pennsylvania by 25 percentage points)
you guys cant think for yourself. You need FOX news and the right wing bimbos to inject their talking points into your mouth.
grow a frickin pair and think for yourself
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the GOP is struggling…they have been on defense every since they took over the senate…offer nothing productive /commit treason with the Bibi invite and still wasting time on the health care act
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It all comes back to this, no one can talk about the life of Muhammad. No one will respond to this. Every single thing we discuss hinges on this fact. If you examine his life, it is not one worth living. At all.
I challenge any of you to actually do your diligence, get the blinders off, and stop being so lazy. Not only is it easy to find out, they are actually telling you why they are doing all these bad things. The willingness of the president to excuse or even defend what is going on, in any way, shows how spineless and deceptive he is. If that’s not it, it’s even worse than we could ever imagine.-
Cigar
That is an excercise in mental masturbation ……arguing mohammed to muslims is something that you are not going to win. It is a religion. They are not changing their minds
What good is that going to do.
We do not have the wherewithall to eliminate islam from the planet…………………so the only practical choice is to survive together.
carrot and stick diplomacy is sorta what we are seeing.-
“Carrot and stick diplomacy” Heh!
The problem is that he’s very short on the stick, while handing out bon bons.
Kpack wants us to hold hands and sing kumbaya, while they behead, burn and blow up people. I see no reason to be making excuses for them. Getting histerical and calling people imbecile and stupid right wingers does not make you right. This is not a FOX news thing, it is a cultural affront. My first reaction when I read the Bammer’s comments was “here we go again with the moral equivalency arguments”. Frankly, this tactic getting old and worn.
Effective elimination of a threat requires clearly defining the enemy, isolating the threat, development of a coherent strategy, harnessing support, amassing overwhelming military and economic fire power, winning minds and killing or neutralizing the threat. Playing footsie with the enemy or adding to their propaganda is the excact opposite of what we need.-
Effective elimination of a threat requires clearly defining the enemy
I think Obama’s words were part of this. He is trying to make clear that the enemy [i]isn’t[/i] Islam. He wisely knows that for the leader of the United States to use rhetoric that implies that this is war against Islam or that the root of the problems lies somehow in the fundamentals of the Muslim faith is going to be counterproductive, making it more difficult for us to reach our long term national security goals-
Quote from dergon
Effective elimination of a threat requires clearly defining the enemy
I think Obama’s words were part of this. He is trying to make clear that the enemy [i]isn’t[/i] Islam. He wisely knows that for the leader of the United States to use rhetoric that implies that this is war against Islam or that the root of the problems lies somehow in the fundamentals of the Muslim faith is going to be counterproductive, making it more difficult for us to reach our long term national security goals
He has said many times that Islam is not our enemy, just as Bush did. Safe territory, no one disagrees. The problem starts when he pontificates without thinking first. He could have reiterated this without adding the shaming statements about christianity and all would have been fine.
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Again you are using 3 sentences out of a long speech that you heard on FOX NEWS blurb
Foreign policy is not just military and drones
The most successful course is to find a way to get the more moderate Muslim world to police their own radicals…….something they have not been very good at.
Again with the recent events in France with the Japanese and Jordanian citizens the time has never been more ripe for this type of diplomacy
The last thing the country needs is for the right wing nuts to get in the way
You have no plan except to be on the opposite side of the fence.
Thems are the true fools
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And as far as shaming Christianity?????
I’m a catholic I wasn’t shamed at all
Please don’t speak for me
The way I see it is you got right wing nuts christians blowing up abortion clinics killing doctors and committing other heinous acts in the name of Christ. Ya got pedophile catholic priests…….Seriously We have little room to talk superior as christians
We aren’t perfect -
The sentences were not out of context. This was a DELIBERATE exercise in moral equivalency. Taking the sentences IN CONTEXT with the opening paragraph describing the recent horrors but refraining from mentioning the name of the reason and the personification that inspired it, and then equating them with bad things done in the name of Jesus AND NAMING the latter tells us everything we need to know.
Try not to be dumbarses and assume that everything that Mr. Obama utters is a pearl of wisdom. He steps in manure pretty much every time he opens his mouth.
You gentlemen got extremely upset if I recall when Dr. Carson called out Mr. Obama during an earlier Prayer breakfast. Why can’t you muster the same indignity over Mr. Obama bringing in irrelevant information? Did he really need to imply that ISIS is the proper revenge for the Crusades and Jim Crow?
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No
Cherry picking 3 sentences out of a speech, furthermore out of a strategy is most definitely out of context
The near term strategy of this administration is to try to convince the more moderate muslim peoples to keep their radicals in line
You guys don’t like that…..you have your own agenda
You want war, but you don’t want fight it
That’s basically it
Seriously if right wing nuts can’t be useful, they should shut and stay out of the way
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Dalai
Please don’t lecture us on Christianity either
I don’t tell you what to or not to be offended about pertaining to your religion, so please do me and my religion the same courtesy
You hate the truth
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I heard a guy say this after church this AM
Ya know maybe we as Christians should encourage the president to say what we really feel
We as Christians are tired of fighting wars and cleaning up messes because Jews hate Muslims and Muslims hate Jews
Maybe we put you all in a room and let you either settle it or kill each other
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I’m sorry to see you degenerate to this kind of talk. It is anything BUT Christian, and yes, the Jew is lecturing YOU about that.
Jews don’t hate Muslims. But the Islamic extremists hate Jews, and they hate Christians and Americans even more. If they succeed in destroying Israel, they will come after YOU. Perhaps you remember 9/11.
I’m sorry you aren’t capable of understanding anything beyond your own little world. But I guess they know you there.
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I will repost again the lead in to the three sentences in the hopes some will try and educate themselves
As we speak, around the world, we see faith inspiring people to lift up one another — to feed the hungry and care for the poor, and comfort the afflicted and make peace where there is strife. We heard the good work that Sister has done in Philadelphia, and the incredible work that Dr. Brantly and his colleagues have done. We see faith driving us to do right.
But we also see faith being twisted and distorted, used as a wedge — or, worse, sometimes used as a weapon. From a school in Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith, their faith, professed to stand up for Islam, but, in fact, are betraying it. We see ISIL, a brutal, vicious death cult that, in the name of religion, carries out unspeakable acts of barbarism — terrorizing religious minorities like the Yezidis, subjecting women to rape as a weapon of war, and claiming the mantle of religious authority for such actions.
We see sectarian war in Syria, the murder of Muslims and Christians in Nigeria, religious war in the Central African Republic, [b]a rising tide of anti-Semitism and hate crimes in Europe, so often perpetrated in the name of religion. [/b]
So how do we, as people of faith, reconcile these realities — the profound good, the strength, the tenacity, the compassion and love that can flow from all of our faiths, operating alongside those who seek to hijack religious for their own murderous ends?
Humanity has been grappling with these questions throughout human history.
Put a bold in there for Dalai -
Dalai
That quote was not from me
I heard it pretty much verbatim this morning
Consider that your lecture from a nameless catholic guy to the you
If it was up to him he’d let you both kill yourselves
My take on this conversation I heard today
there are Christians who really don’t care much for Jews or Muslims. they sure as hello do not want to send their sons over to fight your war for them and they honestly beleive this a war between Muslims and jews in which we let ourselves get mixed up in.
So again don’t speak for them as if you know
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K-123
Are you serious? Your critical of others for speaking for enitre relegions then you go and do it…..”there are Christians who really don’t care much for Jews or Muslims. they sure as hello do not want to send their sons over to fight your war for them and they honestly beleive this a war between Muslims and jews in which we let ourselves get mixed up in.
So again don’t speak for them as if you know ”
I am Christian and I have no issues with Judaism and I certainly do not feel the Muslims only are at war with Jews—they find Christians and Americans in general very worthy targets of their jihad. To think this is only a war between Jews and Muslims is very short sighted IMO.
-Peace Out
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I didn’t say it…….just repeating verbatim a snippet from a conversation I heard
Sorry you are so offended
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K-1213- my bad, multi tasking and the intro portion did not sink in…..
-Peace out -
Thor
your post provides some additional context but for those with blinders on I doubt it matters
The obstructionist agenda is in full force.
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So you are admitting we’re at war with them? You dodged.
If you can’t or worse “shouldn’t” argue with someone about the deeds and life of Muhammad, you’re already finished.
Don’t you get it? -
I have tremendous respect for other religions, including Catholicism and Islam for that matter. I agree that many bad things have been done in the name of religion, if not sanctified by whatever religion it was.
I’m thrilled that Mr. Obama put in a brief word about anti-Semitism in his drive to equate all bad things done in all centuries by a lot of bad people done in the name of religion. I maintain that the rest of the speech does NOT change the context of the sentences that we have quoted above. He WILL NOT MENTION ISLAM, but the name Jesus rolls off his lips in this negative context without difficulty. This tells us quite a bit about where he stands.
Kpack, if you feel close enough to your priest, ask him his opinion of what your fellow parishioner had to say. He might agree, but I rather doubt it. -
He mentions Islam in that passage and he talks about some co-opting Christianity in the same way ME terrorists co-opt Islam. Glad you have completely missed the point, not surprising.
Please give a specific example of Obama using Jesus in a negative context. -
[blockquote][i]Quote from [b] [/b][/i]
Unless we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember, during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ, Mr. Obama said. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often [were] justified in the name of Christ. It is not unique to one group or one religion. There is a tendency in us, a sinful tendency, that can pervert and distort our faith.
[/blockquote] You are correct. He said “Christ” and not “Jesus”. So sorry. And the word ISLAM was never mentioned by Mr. Obama. -
Dalai
I don’t agree with what my fellow parishioner said. I seriously doubt our 3 priests do. They are some of the finest most moral individuals I’ve ever met
But unfortunately a lot of people do
I went to my high school reunion a few months ago…….you don’t even want hear the story
It’s sad and the only way out I believe is for religious leaders of various faiths to step up.
I’m not going to change your beliefs…..you aren’t going to change mine….we aren’t going to change the beliefs of most Muslims
We are not going to fund a war to exterminate them or any other religion
So we need to find a common ground
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Cigar
I think we are at war with terrorism in general. In fact I see little difference between Timothy McVeigh and the Palestinian suicide bombers
I don’t believe we can change an individuals religious beliefs let alone the beliefs of
If you believe you can educate the world about the evils of a religion then go right ahead and try
I try really hard not to waste time on mental masturbation. It’s useless and meaningless
I prefer more practical courses of action
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Just curious
I’m not a constitutional Scholar
And I do hear quite often about the beliefs of our founding fathers
Was Religious freedom somewhere in that story or do I have the wrong interpretation drilled I to me by my ivory tower liberal elites?
Just askin
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From a school in Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith, their faith, professed to stand up for[b] Islam,[/b] but, in fact, are betraying it.
Try reading for a change…btw he was making the EXACT same point about people who engage in un-Christian behavior in the name of Christ
I can only imagine you remain this obtuse on purpose -
One mention. I’ll give you that. And it doesn’t change the moral relativism one bit.
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I’m not sure what you guys don’t get about the appeal to Muhammad by these “bad guys”. They are saying, “Um, why are you mad at us for just following our guy?”
I”m not sure why you can’t seem to get the straight fact that no matter what someone says he cannot point to Jesus Christ as the origin for any violent behavior. It can’t be done.
This is the point. One side, by definition cannot be done in the “name of God”. The other one is precisely doing that, because their example did that.
It’s not really that hard to verify or understand. -
I’m not sure what difference it makes In settling the current situation
What exactly do you want to happen and how would you go about achieving your goals
Point A to Point B
In my mind that’s all that matters
Everything else is mental masturbation
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[link=http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/02/05/remarks-president-national-prayer-breakfast]http://www.whitehouse.gov…ional-prayer-breakfast[/link]
Here is the entire text of Mr. Obama’s address. Taken as a whole, it is a little more productive-sounding than the excerpts. Thor, much as I might disagree with him most of the time, teaches us an important lesson, which I usually follow, but not always…go to the original quote, the original transcript, and don’t trust the pundits from either side to do your thinking for you.
The basis of the message is that ISIL is twisting Islam in the same manner as bad Christians did bad things in the name of Christ and bad Indians did in the name of whatever. All of this is certainly true, but…
Why did the President of the United States feel we (well, Christians, but you get the idea) need to be brought down a notch, reminding everyone of misdeeds long past, and equating them with contemporary slaughters? I think it goes back to Mr. Obama’s anti-colonial heritage, his disgust with the concept of American exceptionalism, and his desire to apologize for anything the West has ever done to the East, and particularly to people of color. We have to be made morally equivalent to the rest of the world, good and bad.
Christ taught peace. Islam classically teaches conflict to further the faith, although I think/hope most Muslims today reject that just as we of the Judeo-Christian faith don’t stone people anymore. To conflate the two approaches does not put us in the best light. -
I’ll tell you how.
You can’t formulate a response to reject the historic, mainstream teachings of Islam (by muslims or anyone else that is subject to their inhumanity) if you don’t talk about what those teachings are. In fact, I’m the most practical about this. If you don’t talk about them, they have [i]zero[/i] chance of going away. Each generation is going to be like, “Mom, Dad, what are you talking about, the teaching is that this book fell from the sky and this is what the earliest people said and did. You aren’t following it, your life makes no sense in this context.”
And so it never goes away. Let’s go over some basic facts that I don’t think people are aware of. Whenever I tell people these things they can’t believe them. Why? Because they don’t want to. They are easily verifiable from islamic history, people, texts, and traditions. Let’s proceed:
1. Every school of islamic jurisprudence states that death to apostates is the standard. Women get half inheritances. Christians and Jews are protected people that have to pay a poll tax with rights of worship that are restricted, even having to wear clothing that makes them stand out. This is not only formulated but has numerous historical examples throught history.
2. Laws and actions are determined through the Quran, which is the supposed literal word of God from the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad. It supports point 1 above and more, including very violent things including crucifixion for “corrupters in the land” (conveniently the caveat before the oft-cited “no compulsion in religion if you kill one it’s as if you killed all”) so there is an out if you actually read the context of every “peaceful” surah. Beyond that, the Quran makes absolutely no sense without the sira and sunna, the hadith. These traditions make complete the story of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina and beyond, because the Quran is just random revelations happening in many instances without any context whatsoever, as to the progress and chronology of the life of Mo.
3. By definition, one cannot argue against someone in a restorationist religion (Islam/Mormonism) unless they show them that it can’t possibly be the word of God. Why? The teaching is that, for example, the Jews and Christians are “corrupters” of the tradition and scriptures and are not to be trusted. So you have to show them the contradictions of their supposedly literal, inerrant scripture in order to cast doubt in their minds, particularly in a modern secular world. If you show them that Mo had a revelation that he should marry his adopted son’s wife and how weird that is (the Quran claims that its followers need to know that it is possible for someone to marry his adopted son’s wife, as if this is necessary in some way to be a better person), you will start to make them think, yeah this is totally odd, why would God tell Mo to do that? Similarly, the Quran even says that the Christians were “fooled by Allah into thinking that Christ was crucified” … but he really wasn’t. This is actually the most damning for them, since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a critical and foundational teaching of Christianity and had been for the 600+ years before Mo came around. Yet, they were the corrupters … because Allah himself fooled them into being corrupters who lie about the traditions and prophets? Sounds to me like God is responsible for that, not the Christians. Honestly, it’s just wacky stuff (incidentally they say God placed Judas in his place! Ha!)
Sorry for the long message, but you can verify every last word I’ve written, it stands on its own. The only practical way is to speka honestly about what they teach. Why is it off limits to talk about their teachings?It is what makes the religion, and provides an example to act in the world. This is precisely what ISIS is doing, challenging muslims to show them how they aren’t following in the best example’s (Mo) conduct.
Groups like this won’t go away. It’s not a war on terror, it’s on the ideas of the religion. That’s why a war on terror will never work. It’s just a tactic. The point is, where are the [b][i]ideas [/i][/b]coming from. -
What’s your solution
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[b]”Quran even says that the Christians were “fooled by Allah into thinking that Christ was crucified” … but he really wasn’t.”[/b]
So what.
Death for apostasy is prescribed by the Old Testament.
Do an analysis of The Old Testament with an eye for murder, killing, contradictions, slavery, etc, etc, etc & then declare Judaism and Christianity are also built on lies & the most heinous of crimes to humanity & the God depicted is a murderous God & therefore cannot be legitimate today. Then I will consider your arguments against Islam. If your argument is “that was then” for Jews and Christians, that’s pretty weak considering the Old Testament and Torah are supposed to be from their God too. Did he change his mind? God matured from an irascible adolescent to a mature adult when Jesus was born?
I don’t know your religion but as an outsider, comparing the Old Testament to the Koran & declaring one good & the other is evil is IMO, 6 of 1 and 1/2 a dozen of the other. I find the stories interesting and stories and laws reflective of the customs for survival of Middle Eastern desert tribes. They have little context in my mind as the prescription for modern living. Therefore your argument is mostly empty. Moslems are no worse than Christians (who subvert the Gospel’s teachings) and Jews based just on a comparison of the Old Testament’s & the Koran’s texts.
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one obvious difference is the[b] number[/b] of adherents taking their respective texts (deathly) serious, and specifically the part of the text which can justify aggression. Right now what is the Christian analogue of ISIS/ISIL? What is the Christian analogue of suicide bombers (today)?
I don’t have a problem with Obama’s purported (bs) equivalence. I doubt he believes it himself, but he must maintain a fragile coalition. -
My only point is that just because someone says they are doing something in the name of religion does not mean they are a true adherent of that religion. In truth this is about power and fear
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Well what constitues a ‘true adherent’ of islam? Are these people not committed enough? Do you doubt their sincerity? Give me a rough idea of the number of people who have committed murder in the name of Islam in the past 20 years? [b]Is it possible to commit murder in the name of Islam?[/b]
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Quote from illinois
one obvious difference is the[b] number[/b] of adherents taking their respective texts (deathly) serious, and specifically the part of the text which can justify aggression. Right now what is the Christian analogue of ISIS/ISIL? What is the Christian analogue of suicide bombers (today)?
I don’t have a problem with Obama’s purported (bs) equivalence. I doubt he believes it himself, but he must maintain a fragile coalition.
Well is the Koran is being quoted as THE REASON the religion is evil, the same must be true of Judiasm & Chriostianity since similar language exists.
As for killing, why limit killing th beheadings? That is ISIS marketing to terrorize. There is Christian terrorism in anti-abortion murders. Christian Identity? Wisconsin Sikh Temple? Army of God? The Troubles in Ireland are not ancient history. Anders Behring Breivik, is a self-described right-wing Christian fundamentalist? Lord’s Resistance Army?
Murders will use any excuse they can muster to justify their acts. Religion has probably been a prime excuse for murder for millennia and has historucally never been limited to any 1 religion. God can be a bloodthirsty deity in some minds. Let’s remember also that most of the victims of religious murder are other Muslims, not the few televised for Western eyes on YouTube. And the suicide bombers, all knowingly voluntarily perform the blood sacrifice on themselves?
Go and declare Islam as a criminal religion but don’t expect me to join in. Bill Maher is closer to the truth in declaring they all have blood on their hands. There are no innocent religions, they’ve probably been wiped out already. -
ok, like I said, the numbers are not comparable.
How do you know that the beheadings are only for marketing ie how do you know they aren’t motivated by their God? If someone bombs an abortion clinic do you take them at their word if they say they did it for ‘God?
Bill Maher has a problem with Islam. He chastises liberals for a failure to see a distinction between Islam and Christianity. Do a quick google search and you can find ample video evidence for that.
I agree that all religions have blood on their hands. I think your default is to say they all have the [b]exact same amount of blood[/b]. Whatever metric you use that can be measured it won’t be the exact same. Also now and the near future is more relevant to me than years ago. [b]Now[/b] I think Islam is more of a problem for humanity as compared to Christianity.
I think it is a good question if the world would be better off with no religion, well articulated by Hitchens, Harris… I am not firmly on their side, however even though I am a reluctant atheist, as I don’t know what would fill the vacuum. -
Frumious, if you bear with me I can explain what you’re not getting. I’m patient. And I can give you a really good explanation why for each of the questions in your last post.
As Illinois says, do you think that it’s a coincidence that there have been something like 19,000 acts of jihad since 9/11. How do you explain the perfect experiments we have (christians living in the exact same circumstances socially and politically) that show that it IS in fact controlled for religion and that’s what happens? As an example, all the Copts do is get slaughtered and they have no local or worldwide violent traditions or killing sprees, at all. This is also the case in the rest of the Middle East. It’s not a coincidence. I’m being very serious, has this never crossed your mind? I find it sorta strange to ignore that critical fact, since it shows us so much about the reality of the situation at hand. -
I’m still not sure what your plan or your proposal would be
You can mentally masturbate about anything forever
What would you do or like to have done?
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The car won’t start because the battery is dead
Well the batteries dead because you left the lights on play the radio with the engine off.
Right but the car won’t start?
The car won’t start because the battery is dead
Well the batteries dead because you left the lights on play the radio with the engine off
Again what’s your plan
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Illinois & Cigar,
It is not necessary to declare Islam a “criminal” religion. For whom are you going to do that? Americans? Fox News & Rush viewers? The World?
If Islam is “criminal” you leave only 1 alternative, go after the criminal. & how do you cooperate with all these countries that are primarily Muslim? Or our own & Europe’s Muslim population? They are all “criminals?” Or only “misguided?” We’ll allow them to convert to some “non-criminal” religion? You want to declare war on worldwide Islam? WOW! You really want to throw gasoline on the problem, no?
Neither of you have to be Muslims. You don’t have to love Islam, you can both “keep your own religions” to paraphrase someone about another subject. [:D]
The problem is the extremists (of all stripes) who use religion & God. Go after the murders & their marketing plan for raising new recruits. They are the guilty ones.
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thank you for breaking it down into the simplistic manner for their little bias brains to handle
Quote from Frumious
Illinois & Cigar,
It is not necessary to declare Islam a “criminal” religion. For whom are you going to do that? Americans? Fox News & Rush viewers? The World?
If Islam is “criminal” you leave only 1 alternative, go after the criminal. & how do you cooperate with all these countries that are primarily Muslim? Or our own & Europe’s Muslim population? They are all “criminals?” Or only “misguided?” We’ll allow them to convert to some “non-criminal” religion? You want to declare war on worldwide Islam? WOW! You really want to throw gasoline on the problem, no?
Neither of you have to be Muslims. You don’t have to love Islam, you can both “keep your own religions” to paraphrase someone about another subject. [:D]
The problem is the extremists (of all stripes) who use religion & God. Go after the murders & their marketing plan for raising new recruits. They are the guilty ones.
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Still waiting for Cigar to give us his solution
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Michael Gerson weighs in with some perspective as well as evidence that Bush made the exact same points many times. W was right to do it then just as Obama is right to do it now
[link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/condemning-islam-is-the-wrong-course/2015/02/09/b4eb521e-b085-11e4-854b-a38d13486ba1_story.html]http://www.washingtonpost…38d13486ba1_story.html[/link] -
No, Bush was right, Obama is wrong.
Repeat & rinse, then repeat again.
“I’m gonna wash that man right out of my hair…”
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Calling Ceegar
What’s your plan
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[link=https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/575022-alleged-english-speaking-narrator-of-isis-propaganda-videos-facing]https://thehill.com/polic…opaganda-videos-facing[/link]
[b] Alleged English-speaking narrator of ISIS propaganda videos facing federal charges [/b]
Mohammed Khalifa, 38, is a Saudi-born Canadian citizen who spearheaded ISIS English media and served as an ISIS fighter, according to a [link=https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/leading-isis-media-figure-and-foreign-fighter-charged-conspiring-provide-material]statement[/link] from the U.S. Attorneys Office for the Eastern District of Virginia.Khalifa has been charged with conspiring to provide material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, resulting in death. He faces up to life in prison if convicted.
As alleged, Mohammed Khalifa not only fought for ISIS on the battlefield in Syria, but he was also the voice behind the violence, Raj Parekh, acting U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, said in a statement. -
Life in prison sounds fair.
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[link=https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-03/biden-says-islamic-state-leader-killed-in-u-s-raid-in-syria?srnd=premium]Islamic State Leader Killed in U.S. Raid in Syria
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Islamic State leader Abu Ibrahim al-Hashimi al-Qurayshi was killed during a U.S. counterterrorism operation in northwestern Syria on Wednesday night, President Joe Biden said in a statement.
Last night at my direction, U.S. military forces in northwest Syria successfully undertook a counterterrorism operation to protect the American people and our allies, and make the world a safer place, Biden said.
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Quote from kpack123
Cigar
That is an excercise in mental masturbation ……arguing mohammed to muslims is something that you are not going to win. It is a religion. They are not changing their minds
What good is that going to do.
We do not have the wherewithall to eliminate islam from the planet…………………so the only practical choice is to survive together.
carrot and stick diplomacy is sorta what we are seeing.
So you are admitting it is a war with Islam?
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[link=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/11/us/politics/us-isis-syria.html?smid=tw-share]https://www.nytimes.com/2…ria.html?smid=tw-share[/link]
[b]U.S. Commandos Kill Two Islamic State Officials in Syria[/b][/h1] Special Operations forces carried out an overnight helicopter raid at the compound of an official who the military said was involved in plotting and enabling terrorist attacks.
