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If the FIRE bad for medicine
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44 Replies
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FIRE is mostly about investing, spending less and side gigs.
Not about dishonest practice of medicine and maximizing income.
Why would anyone want to work full time until 70 ? And why would anyone want to work at reduced salary ?
Work gets in the way of so much.The key to wealth is compounding. The quicker the time to 500k, 1 mil , 2 mil – whatever the number , the more the money grows
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It is not bad for medicine.
But it has gone to its extreme these days. You have to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
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Of course it’s bad for medicine. Medicine depends on older docs who are up to their eyeballs in debt and on trophy wife #3 to get the work done. Nothing worse for medicine than having a large contingent of mid 40s docs cut back to part time and only work when they enjoy it.
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Id worry far less if I were at FIRE. Id also donate more to certain causes.
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Im not sure about the Retire Early part of FIRE, but I like the Financial Independence part if it gives doctors the confidence to walk away from abusive contracts and toxic practices. If doctors can escape those situations and either start their own practices or find a setting where they arent pressured as much by administrators, that could result in better patient care and higher physician career satisfaction.
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I think the retire early part is stupid. Why stop completely when you could make such a relatively large amount part time? I dont want to stop completely but I do want to scale back when I get mid 40s/50, the pace Im working now is unsustainable.
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Bc if you cant spend it , whats the point ?
PT at 1-2d a week during bad weather months sounds great
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that’s the problem. Most groups don’t want you to work part time. They need people to take call. And that has to do with the fact that the partners want to max profit. If the partners would agree that profit is not the number one goal, you’e hire more people and spread the work out more. This of course puts a lot of pressure on partners to work harder which in turn makes them ‘burn out’ or hate working so hard and want to retire early.
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The problem is choice.
If everyone was told. You get to work 40 hours a week, take weekend shift every 2 months. But you can only make 300k a year. There would be less stress and there would be more help.
The greed of radiology to max out profit is ruining many things. -
Quote from peehdee
that’s the problem. Most groups don’t want you to work part time. They need people to take call. And that has to do with the fact that the partners want to max profit. If the partners would agree that profit is not the number one goal, you’e hire more people and spread the work out more. This of course puts a lot of pressure on partners to work harder which in turn makes them ‘burn out’ or hate working so hard and want to retire early.
That dynamic would change eventually if there was a substantial population of mid career rads ready to walk away from a job that they dont have to stick with.
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Its good to replace the older rads with young eager indebted radiologists who have no other choice and dont know any better.
Radiology is trading your time for money. Especially now when fewer rads own anything. Its a stressful sedentary job with bad hours. FIRE offers an escape route if you so choose.
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It’s all just a game.
Create enough passive income to support your expenses and lifestyle and then you are truly free (even if you are not yet ‘rich’).
Don’t create passive income, spend more than you make, and get into a lot of debt (especially consumer debt), and you will always be a slave.
It’s not complicated, but it’s just really hard to do, especially at our ‘current’ income levels and how much we are taxed on our earned income.
It’s still a game you can win, but it’s just hard…welcome to reality.
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you should do FINER instead of FIRE. FINER is Financial independence, never ever retire. Some could reach financial independence with just 10 years of doing radiology, remainder will do it within 20 years. After that, just work 5-10 hours a week – fun money. You can grind for the first 10 years, but after that you should not be working any nights or weekends, and you should not be working more than 40 hours, ideally you are only working 20 hours after 10 years. 10 years full time will give you plenty to bank and invest and compound. If you start radiology at 31, this means by 41 you can go part time. Staying full grind after 10 years is for the people who couldnt graduate high school working at mcdonalds – you are a radiologist, you worked hard getting there, you worked hard for 10 years, you can and deserve to go part time/20 hours after 10 years.
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The essence of life is continual growth and, hopefully, improvement, in my opinion.
Never retire is a great ethos. You can (and should) always make some sort of contribution to society, if you can and are blessed with enough skills.
Mentor a promising youth, coach sports, volunteer for a charity, teach a class for free, etc, etc.
You will not be truly happy if you are not productive and/or giving back in some capacity…
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“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
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Quote from Takayasu
“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
another man that gets it. -
It is human nature to look for problems: The one with neither work nor shelter wants just that. The one with both then wants fancy shelter. The one with fancy shelter wants it without having to work as much, or at all. The one who gets it without having to work anymore is busy remodeling and stressed out about incompetent contractors screwing up the italian marble or the detailer damaging the Bentley.
Even when you win the rat race, it was still a rat race and FOS.
Aristippus, seeing Diogenese in the street boiling lentils for food, looked down his nose and said,
“If only you would learn to flatter the king, you would not have to eat lentils.” Diogenes replied,
“…and if only you would learn to eat lentils, you would not have to flatter the king.”
As it is human nature to find problems, the goal is not an absence of problems, but rather having the RIGHT problems, meaningful problems, problems of our own choosing, in which we find pleasure and achieve a state of Flow and delight when solving those problems, not headache or stress. Sometimes these rich and wonderful problems are ones we already possess but do not appreciate, like the keys that we are hunting for when leaving house that we are already holding in our hand. Sometimes the issue is one of awareness, framing, and perspective.
To have the magnanimity and confidence to deal with other humans in turmoil who are hostile, in a way that exhibits sympathy, kindness, and a bit of sadness if you are forced to squash them like a bug. To compete in earnestness the way a child plays a game. That when you lose, it’s easy-come-easy-go, let’s play again, betcha I do better this time, ha ha.
When we stop caring about what people think about us and our thoughts, only then are we able to stop lecturing and begin listening, and we can begin truly caring for people, especially those we don’t know or who dislike us.
This all may seem random, but it is all related to FIRE, the Great Race, and what we are seeking. -
Quote from Flounce
It is human nature to look for problems: The one with neither work nor shelter wants just that. The one with both then wants fancy shelter. The one with fancy shelter wants it without having to work as much, or at all. The one who gets it without having to work anymore is busy remodeling and stressed out about incompetent contractors screwing up the italian marble or the detailer damaging the Bentley.
Even when you win the rat race, it was still a rat race and FOS.
Aristippus, seeing Diogenese in the street boiling lentils for food, looked down his nose and said,
“If only you would learn to flatter the king, you would not have to eat lentils.” Diogenes replied,
“…and if only you would learn to eat lentils, you would not have to flatter the king.”As it is human nature to find problems, the goal is not an absence of problems, but rather having the RIGHT problems, meaningful problems, problems of our own choosing, in which we find pleasure and achieve a state of Flow and delight when solving those problems, not headache or stress. Sometimes these rich and wonderful problems are ones we already possess but do not appreciate, like the keys that we are hunting for when leaving house that we are already holding in our hand. Sometimes the issue is one of awareness, framing, and perspective.
To have the magnanimity and confidence to deal with other humans in turmoil who are hostile, in a way that exhibits sympathy, kindness, and a bit of sadness if you are forced to squash them like a bug. To compete in earnestness the way a child plays a game. That when you lose, it’s easy-come-easy-go, let’s play again, betcha I do better this time, ha ha.
When we stop caring about what people think about us and our thoughts, only then are we able to stop lecturing and begin listening, and we can begin truly caring for people, especially those we don’t know or who dislike us.
This all may seem random, but it is all related to FIRE, the Great Race, and what we are seeking.
TL;DR “It’s not about getting what you want; it’s about wanting what you get.”
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Quote from Takayasu
“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
Amen. This is the position of power against PE AND PP group/pyramid schemes. Message to young rads-demand or take a position with 1099 income, save/defer 150K+ of your annual income, create a corp to protect your assets or possibly move to a local which you can. By your mid-40s, working 10 years+, you’ll have 2 million in assets (if not more) and certainly 3 mil by the time your 50. DONT drink the cool aid and think that highly taxed 1040 income and 50k in retirement is the only way. Its just limiting your options. With assets that can be accumulated through 1099 income, you can true power in choosing what your work conditions could be.
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Quote from MRImadman
Quote from Takayasu
“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
Amen. This is the position of power against PE AND PP group/pyramid schemes. Message to young rads-demand or take a position with 1099 income, save/defer 150K+ of your annual income, create a corp to protect your assets or possibly move to a local which you can. By your mid-40s, working 10 years+, you’ll have 2 million in assets (if not more) and certainly 3 mil by the time your 50. DONT drink the cool aid and think that highly taxed 1040 income and 50k in retirement is the only way. Its just limiting your options. With assets that can be accumulated through 1099 income, you can true power in choosing what your work conditions could be.
Great post. Thanks for that -
Quote from Casino Royale
Quote from MRImadman
Quote from Takayasu
“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
Amen. This is the position of power against PE AND PP group/pyramid schemes. Message to young rads-demand or take a position with 1099 income, save/defer 150K+ of your annual income, create a corp to protect your assets or possibly move to a local which you can. By your mid-40s, working 10 years+, you’ll have 2 million in assets (if not more) and certainly 3 mil by the time your 50. DONT drink the cool aid and think that highly taxed 1040 income and 50k in retirement is the only way. Its just limiting your options. With assets that can be accumulated through 1099 income, you can true power in choosing what your work conditions could be.
Great post. Thanks for that
cigar, fuck off
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Nice strategy, thank you. How liberating is $2M in assets if the vast majority of it is tied up into retirement, 529(s), and home (assuming paid off). I feel like I would need more of a cushion to move to part-time because that money really isn’t that liquid. Is there a good target dollar # on when would feel “safe” to go part time or say FU to a job? Is that number purely based on total assets? Thanks.
Quote from MRImadman
Quote from Takayasu
“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
Amen. This is the position of power against PE AND PP group/pyramid schemes. Message to young rads-demand or take a position with 1099 income, save/defer 150K+ of your annual income, create a corp to protect your assets or possibly move to a local which you can. By your mid-40s, working 10 years+, you’ll have 2 million in assets (if not more) and certainly 3 mil by the time your 50. DONT drink the cool aid and think that highly taxed 1040 income and 50k in retirement is the only way. Its just limiting your options. With assets that can be accumulated through 1099 income, you can true power in choosing what your work conditions could be.
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Just FYI, in case you havent considered it. You can go part time – assuming you have the opportunity – without having a stash of liquid assets, or any assets for that matter. If you are living well within your means and the amount you make working 3 days a week is enough, then.. its enough. At that point, its just a matter of how much you value going part time.
I went part time around 5 or 6 years after finishing my training, without any passive income stream nor large assets. If full-time pediatricians and engineers can live off of what a part-time radiologist makes, then its just a matter of choices that stand between us and part-time.
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The difficulty of going part time is your situation before going part time. If you are a partner and your group does not have a part-time setup, then you have to look elsewhere. If you have to go somewhere else, you probably take a hit based upon a) being new and b) overall part-time salary. The ideal situation would be going part time in a group you have been at a long time with so you get paid on a partner (or near partner) rate. Not sure how it works, as the option doesn’t exist in my group.
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Quote from Flounce
Just FYI, in case you havent considered it. You can go part time – assuming you have the opportunity – without having a stash of liquid assets, or any assets for that matter. If you are living well within your means and the amount you make working 3 days a week is enough, then.. its enough. At that point, its just a matter of how much you value going part time.
I went part time around 5 or 6 years after finishing my training, without any passive income stream nor large assets. If full-time pediatricians and engineers can live off of what a part-time radiologist makes, then its just a matter of choices that stand between us and part-time.
Haven’t you read the other thread about west coast?
Many people believe that Full time Radiologist’s salary is not enough to live in California. Now you’re telling me that you can do it by a part time job?? Something doesn’t add up.
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You are financially independent when you have 25x your yearly expenses. So if you spend 80k a year, you are financially independent. If you dont think you can retire at that age, then you cant because you don’t have a firm grasp on investing. Instead of learning about investing, you can read films full time till you feel comfortable sitting on a 10 million nest egg. Index fund 50%, bond fund 50% at retirement, with periodic rebalancing. It is as easy as that. And if you don’t have faith in that, thats because you havent put in the time to learn about investing.
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Quote from Hospital-Rad
Haven’t you read the other thread about west coast?
Many people believe that Full time Radiologist’s salary is not enough to live in California. Now you’re telling me that you can do it by a part time job?? Something doesn’t add up.
It doesn’t add up because most radiologists don’t want to live like pediatricians or engineers.
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Quote from MRImadman
Quote from Takayasu
“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
Amen. This is the position of power against PE AND PP group/pyramid schemes. Message to young rads-demand or take a position with 1099 income, save/defer 150K+ of your annual income, create a corp to protect your assets or possibly move to a local which you can. By your mid-40s, working 10 years+, you’ll have 2 million in assets (if not more) and certainly 3 mil by the time your 50. DONT drink the cool aid and think that highly taxed 1040 income and 50k in retirement is the only way. Its just limiting your options. With assets that can be accumulated through 1099 income, you can true power in choosing what your work conditions could be.
150k in tax deferred as 1099?! Wow, tell me more!
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Quote from Takayasu
“Semi retired” is the holy grail. Work optional. Enough FU money to tell anyone to go to hell.
I agree, but how many people do you know who practice this?
Sounds like it would be nice to start doing this around age 45 or 50. -
Quote from striker79
you should do FINER instead of FIRE. FINER is Financial independence, never ever retire. Some could reach financial independence with just 10 years of doing radiology, remainder will do it within 20 years. After that, just work 5-10 hours a week – fun money. You can grind for the first 10 years, but after that you should not be working any nights or weekends, and you should not be working more than 40 hours, ideally you are only working 20 hours after 10 years. 10 years full time will give you plenty to bank and invest and compound. If you start radiology at 31, this means by 41 you can go part time. Staying full grind after 10 years is for the people who couldnt graduate high school working at mcdonalds – you are a radiologist, you worked hard getting there, you worked hard for 10 years, you can and deserve to go part time/20 hours after 10 years.
i love you, strike-ito -
Quote from striker79
you should do FINER instead of FIRE. FINER is Financial independence, never ever retire. Some could reach financial independence with just 10 years of doing radiology, remainder will do it within 20 years. After that, just work 5-10 hours a week – fun money. You can grind for the first 10 years, but after that you should not be working any nights or weekends, and you should not be working more than 40 hours, ideally you are only working 20 hours after 10 years. 10 years full time will give you plenty to bank and invest and compound. If you start radiology at 31, this means by 41 you can go part time. Staying full grind after 10 years is for the people who couldnt graduate high school working at mcdonalds – you are a radiologist, you worked hard getting there, you worked hard for 10 years, you can and deserve to go part time/20 hours after 10 years.
Thank you for giving me hope. That sounds like a great plan. Also, I don’t think the people claiming to retire early comprehend that they’ll probably lose their minds. Humans need meaning and our work contributes largely to that. Having financial independence is a great goal, but like you said, best to work part time for extra fun money and find a worthy cause to contribute to and help others. I don’t think I could ever retire completely.
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Someone got triggered, lol, I looked up that cigar guy … he was the first to predict Trump win. They must hate me for all the FIRE that Trump is going to let us do, and to the deep state
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Quote from Casino Royale
Someone got triggered, lol, I looked up that cigar guy … he was the first to predict Trump win. They must hate me for all the FIRE that Trump is going to let us do, and to the deep state
Not at all, just hadn’t realized I could be financially independent after around 10 years or a few more. Not sure how any of it relates to trump.
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Oh, not you, that was for the samidgetlaus guy
I just hit reply, sorry
You’ll be independent when you want to be … no problem I’m sure you’ll make the right decision financially for your situation. -
Ahh ok haha Thanks
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Money in erisa plans is liquid before 59.5 or 65 if you invoke rule 72t or substantially equal periodic payments. You can get to that money without any penalty.
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If rads are unable to go on strike I am concerned rad partners will take over the entire country. This seems to be happening rapidly so I have a sense of urgency to build assets. It will take me at least 5 years, I think. I hope 5-10 years is enough time before rads goes down the toilet.
So, I think FIRE is good for medicine. It keeps employers honest. If you are beholden to debts and expenses, you cannot walk away from a bad deal.
If doctors started going on strike, we would have a lot more negotiating power. Work income must become optional ASAP.
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Quote from fw
Of course it’s bad for medicine. Medicine depends on older docs who are up to their eyeballs in debt and on trophy wife #3 to get the work done. Nothing worse for medicine than having a large contingent of mid 40s docs cut back to part time and only work when they enjoy it.
The curious thing about this is that just like women, who are an overall waste for the society to educate and be nonproductive as physicians … it only, oddly increases the value of physicians as a result. Funny, but true.-
R3BIRTH IS THAT YOU?! That weird [b][i][link=https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GIWA_enUS594US594&nfpr=1&biw=1920&bih=888&sxsrf=ALeKk02MQEAfwHIwbj1GHJxGse7upVIRNA:1602657559168&q=misogynistic&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUzIrUvLPsAhWKm1kKHTVMAuEQBSgAegQIDhAq]misogynistic[/link] [/i][/b]tilt/bent… Of a repressed nerd that never got his rocks off…
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Quote from chalupa_breath
R3BIRTH IS THAT YOU?! That weird [b][i][link=https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GIWA_enUS594US594&nfpr=1&biw=1920&bih=888&sxsrf=ALeKk02MQEAfwHIwbj1GHJxGse7upVIRNA:1602657559168&q=misogynistic&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiUzIrUvLPsAhWKm1kKHTVMAuEQBSgAegQIDhAq]misogynistic[/link] [/i][/b]tilt/bent… Of a repressed nerd that never got his rocks off…
Yep. (block feature already activated)
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It doesn’t matter if FIRE is bad for medicine…do what is right for you. If medicine was less stressful and more enjoyable, then physicians wouldn’t be worried about FIRE. The key is to fix the underlying problems, but individually we don’t have that ability.
I think the ideal setup is FI but part-time work. Hard to get there with a thing called life, but kudos to those that are there.
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This is a pretty awful message. The female physicians that I have met in my life are more smart, less harried and more compassionate; everything that you would want in your physician. You can get central casting actors playing the role of a doctor any day.
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Quote from RADD2010
This is a pretty awful message. The female physicians that I have met in my life are more smart, less harried and more compassionate; everything that you would want in your physician. You can get central casting actors playing the role of a doctor any day.
Dont feed the troll. -
Quote from RADD2010
This is a pretty awful message. The female physicians that I have met in my life are more smart, less harried and more compassionate; everything that you would want in your physician. You can get central casting actors playing the role of a doctor any day.
Virtue signalling on an anonymous internet forum … I didn’t know we could reach new lows in the 21st century.
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