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  • If not the two state solution, then what? What is the alternative ?

    Posted by Unknown Member on December 31, 2016 at 9:39 am

    I’m reading a lot about how people in Israel and the US backers of the Israeli right wing are mad about the UN resolution.
     
    They apparently want lots of West Bank settlements, and they want to keep all of Jerusalem and the West Bank.
     
    They don’t want a Pal state.
     
    So….here’s my question.  What alternative do they envision?  Israeli citizenship for all the Arabs in E. J’lem and the West Bank?  If not that, then what ???
     
    What do they envision as their alternative to the two state solution ?
     
     

    clickpenguin_460 replied 3 years ago 7 Members · 17 Replies
  • 17 Replies
  • ruszja

    Member
    December 31, 2016 at 10:19 am

    Direct administration by the IDF seems to work the best 😉

    Maybe sell the west bank to Jordan and have Saudi pay for it.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      December 31, 2016 at 11:29 am

      I can see the Jordan idea working out but I’m not sure that either Jordan or the West Bank Palestinians would go for it.
       
      Direct admin. by the IDF is a poor untenable long term solution – not to mention that that would be (and is) apartheid – unless the West Bank Palestinians are all given an Israeli passport and full fledged Israeli citizenship. 
       
       
       

      • 100574

        Member
        December 31, 2016 at 1:53 pm

        given the cuts in Israel–will the people put up with having 850,000 being used to resettle every family till eternity–they have a choice–given citizenship to all and be democratic or

        • Unknown Member

          Deleted User
          December 31, 2016 at 8:10 pm

          Removed due to GDPR request

      • ruszja

        Member
        December 31, 2016 at 8:52 pm

        Quote from SadRad

        I can see the Jordan idea working out but I’m not sure that either Jordan or the West Bank Palestinians would go for it.

         
        By now, the palestinians have become so toxic, not even the emiratis can stand them. They rather import their workforce from India than bringing in palestinians and their headaches. So no, unless its for a really good price, I doubt the jordanians want them.
         

        Direct admin. by the IDF is a poor untenable long term solution – not to mention that that would be (and is) apartheid – unless the West Bank Palestinians are all given an Israeli passport and full fledged Israeli citizenship. 

         
        Oh, they can be citizens of the palestinian state, as long as that state doesn’t actually have anything to say.  
         
        In ’94, all doors were open to the palestinians, europeans were pushing each other out of the way to offer help in setting up infrastructure, palestinian police etc. And look what mess Arafat turned it into. Maybe one of these days they select a responsible leadership. The first sign of that happening will be when the attacks against israel are stopped from within the palestinian territories. The west bank and Ghaza are small communities, the authority knows exactly who the rocketmakers and terrorists are. Once the authority controls their own, maybe they become a serious counterpart for negotiations.

        • 100574

          Member
          December 31, 2016 at 11:41 pm

          ..

          • hjenkins_352

            Member
            January 1, 2017 at 2:45 pm

            How about turning Jerusalem into a three religion city, with the Catholic Church in charge. The Swiss guard would keep the peace. (Full Disclosure: Not my idea, first proposed by Tom Clancy who produced the use of a commercial airliner to commit terrorist by crashing into the capital building. ) but the RC church has no skin in the Muslim/Jewish conflict, but that city is their most holy site too.

            • ruszja

              Member
              January 1, 2017 at 5:18 pm

              Quote from DXAman

              How about turning Jerusalem into a three religion city, with the Catholic Church in charge. The Swiss guard would keep the peace. (Full Disclosure: Not my idea, first proposed by Tom Clancy who produced the use of a commercial airliner to commit terrorist by crashing into the capital building. ) but the RC church has no skin in the Muslim/Jewish conflict, but that city is their most holy site too.

               
              Another crusade, that’s what we need !
               
              I would say the only religion that doesn’t have skin in the game in Jerusalem are the Shinto. Everyone else has been at the receiving end of muslim expansionism and  violence.
               
               

            • 100574

              Member
              January 1, 2017 at 6:59 pm

              A three religion city has always been my view–like Catholics don’t hold the place as sacred as well
               

              Quote from DXAman

              How about turning Jerusalem into a three religion city, with the Catholic Church in charge. The Swiss guard would keep the peace. (Full Disclosure: Not my idea, first proposed by Tom Clancy who produced the use of a commercial airliner to commit terrorist by crashing into the capital building. ) but the RC church has no skin in the Muslim/Jewish conflict, but that city is their most holy site too.

              • mattsimon

                Member
                January 2, 2017 at 8:42 am

                Maybe each religion can choose a team and have a rumble to determine control (a la Anchorman 2).
                 
                Make it PPV and each gets a split of the proceeds!

                • 100574

                  Member
                  January 3, 2017 at 2:12 am

                  reading NZ herald over the weekend
                  I got from one of the articles–Bibi–u got bigger issues to worry about
                  agree–but I will say don’t dump on African countries and NZ

                  • btomba_77

                    Member
                    June 30, 2021 at 3:48 am

                    Fascinating interview with Ian Lustick on Smerconish yesterday.  The author of “Paradigm Lost: From Two-State Solution of One-State Reality” has a new essay.

                    [link=https://www.smerconish.com/exclusive-content/israel-after-netanyahu-anchored-in-a-one-state-reality]https://www.smerconish.co…in-a-one-state-reality[/link]
                     
                     
                    [b]Israel After Netanyahu: Anchored in a One-State Reality[/b][/h1]

                    There is nothing so decisive for explaining the presence of this new ruling coalition than the absence of the possibility of a negotiated two-state solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.  In fact, negotiating a peace agreement based on Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967 has been impossible for more than a decade.  What has changed since the embarrassing collapse of the [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/23/world/middleeast/john-kerry-israel-palestinian-violence.html]Kerry peace initiative in 2014[/link], and the transparently phony [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/world/middleeast/peace-plan.html]Trump plan in 2020[/link], is that now not only do all politicians and diplomats know that there will be no successful peace negotiations, they also know that they all know that they all know it.

                    The reality that there is one state between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and that there will not be two, explains why a government could form in Israel totally reliant on an Arab political party an Arab party with indirect ties to the Muslim Brotherhood movement as well as substantive political and material demands. Only now, because its support cannot enable withdrawal from Judea and Samaria (Israels official term for the West Bank) as part of a two-state solution could a ruling coalition form that relies upon an Arab party as a more-or-less equal partner. Thus does the complexion of this coalition reflect an end to five decades of an Israeli political system dominated by competition over what to do with territory occupied more than half a century ago.

                    In a few generations, the victory of the hawks may lead to just the sort of secular, effectively bi-national and democratic state most of them now find utterly abhorrent. However, in the next months or years, the coalition their victory enabled is likely to promote incremental improvements in the lives of Jews and Arabs and to calm or shrink the conflict.  Such measures include fewer restrictions on Palestinian travel, more permits for Israeli employment outside the West Bank and Gaza, the release of prisoners, an end to home demolitions, the rebuilding of Gaza, permits for Arab construction in Jerusalem and [link=https://www.anera.org/what-are-area-a-area-b-and-area-c-in-the-west-bank/]Area C[/link], and punitive steps against Jewish provocateurs and vigilantes. Measures such as these will help prevent more violence and enhance the coalitions chances of avoiding crises capable of destabilizing its rule.
                     
                     
                    In the long run, the emergence of this government in Israel highlights two principles:   that politics makes strange bedfellows and that even very partial democracies, if they feature intense partisan competition, can make progress toward building a more inclusive and reasonable society.  Now that Jews have shown they can rule the country with Arab political support, they may find they can no longer do so without it.  In other words, the long road is now open to a future consistent with President Bidens important vision for all those living in Israel/Palestine.  Palestinians and Israelis, he said, equally deserve to live safely and securely and to enjoy equal measures of freedom, prosperity, and democracy. 

                    [/QUOTE]
                     

                    • clickpenguin_460

                      Member
                      June 30, 2021 at 10:39 am

                      They could battle for it.  Maybe the real question is why does Israel have to give Palestinians anything?
                       
                      Should we give Arizona to the Navajo?

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      June 30, 2021 at 10:55 am

                      First lets start with demographics. It is much more akin to the United States Latino population growth than Native Americans.

                      The non-Jewish population in the holy land is already on par with that Israeli Jews.

                      Even inside of Israel proper The non-Jewish population is growing in a much faster rate.

                      Without undertaking genocide or forced depopulation of Arabs, Israel is going to have to live with the reality of Israeli Jews making up a smaller and smaller portion of the population.

                      That also means political power increasing as evidenced by the current coalition

                      Sure, Israel could choose the path of becoming an increasingly totalitarian state, suppressing an ever-growing population with more and more oppressive tactics.

                      Israel can be a democracy or it can be a Jewish state. It cant be both.

                    • clickpenguin_460

                      Member
                      June 30, 2021 at 11:14 am

                      Quote from dergon

                      First lets start with demographics. It is much more akin to the United States Latino population growth that Native Americans.

                      The non-Jewish population in the holy land is already on par with that Israeli Jews.

                      Even inside of Israel proper The non-Jewish population is growing in a much faster rate.

                      Without undertaking genocide or forced depopulation of Arabs, Israel is going to have to live with the reality of Israeli Jews making up a smaller and smaller portion of the population.

                      That also means political power increasing as evidenced by the current coalition

                      Sure, Israel could choose the path of becoming an increasingly totalitarian state, suppressing an ever-growing population with more and more oppressive tactics.

                      Israel can be a democracy or it can be a Jewish state. It cant be both.

                       
                      Okay so they (Palestinians) assimilate into Israel (as they already are) and then eventually overtake the Jewish population and vote in a Muslim PM.  What’s the problem?  Are you saying that Israel will become a dictatorship in the interim?
                       
                      Do you also think the US will become a dictatorship to stop Hispanics from “taking over?”  Using your example, it would be like the US giving  CA, AZ, NM (old Mexican territories) to the Hispanic population and/or back to Mexico because they are having more babies.
                       
                      You’re basically saying that Israel should give up land they fairly won – after being attacked mind you – just because the other “group” is having more babies.
                       
                      If Israel should give away land to its enemy that terrorizes them daily then there’s a ton of other countries that will have to give away land too – the US included.  Pretty much every country actually.

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      June 30, 2021 at 11:30 am

                      I’m not saying either of those things.
                       
                      I am just speculating about the likely future from based on the facts on the ground.
                       
                      _______
                       
                      Do I think that, if given the opportunity,  the Israeli far-right and the US far right would resort to inhumane  practices in order to prevent losing cultural and political influence to Arab/ Latino populations respectively? … yes. 
                       
                       

                    • clickpenguin_460

                      Member
                      June 30, 2021 at 1:52 pm

                      I feel sorry for you.