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  • Ferguson Police What a racket!

    Posted by kayla.meyer_144 on March 5, 2015 at 3:39 am

    Robbing the poor over and over. Real predatory government. The modern variation of Jim Crow, considering who is predated.
     
    [link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/03/04/fergusons-government-was-run-like-a-racket/]http://www.washingtonpost…was-run-like-a-racket/[/link]

    Ta-Nehisi Coates is combing through the Department of Justice report on racism in Ferguson and finding evidence that the local government saw its inhabitants, who were mostly African Americans as a cash cow to be milked through fines and tickets. Or, perhaps more precisely, bled through fines and tickets. When the police chief reported that revenue from fines beat our next biggest month in the last four years, the city manager replied, Wonderful! As Coates suggests, this is a kind of legalized plunder. His scathing analysis recalls Charles Tillys classic article on War-Making and State-Making As Organized Crime. Tilly:

    If protection rackets represent organized crime at its smoothest, then war making and state making quintessential protection rackets with the advantage of legitimacy qualify as our largest examples of organized crime. Apologists for particular governments and for government in general
    commonly argue, precisely, that they offer protection from local and external violence. They claim that the prices they charge barely cover the costs of protection. They call people who complain about the price of protection anarchists, subversives, or both at once. But consider the definition of a racketeer as someone who creates a threat and then charges for its reduction. Governments provision of protection, by this standard, often qualifies as racketeering.

     
     

    kayla.meyer_144 replied 1 year, 2 months ago 6 Members · 25 Replies
  • 25 Replies
  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    March 5, 2015 at 4:39 am

    And you find this unusual?..  all governments from Feds down to local and town are full of kleptocrats. As Hillary says.. if it moves in the US it’s taxed.. The Justice department makes a fortune on forfeiture laws and fines .. why would they want anything legalized?.. 
     
    I am wondering tho where the racism is in that?.. Why isn’t Al Sharpton backlash over his prejudgement … why isn’t he speaking out now?..

    • kayla.meyer_144

      Member
      March 5, 2015 at 6:30 am

      OK, so government is always bad. What’s your alternative?

      • ruszja

        Member
        March 5, 2015 at 6:48 am

        The people of Ferguson have the government they elected. This is what happens if you vote straight ticket and leave it to party apparatchiks to select your city councilors. Show up, vote, elect people who are for civil liberties and against using the court as revenue mechanism.
        You got to register to vote and show up if you want to be heard. Municipal elections in Ferguson in recent years had voter turnout as low as 8.9%. If you dont take an Interest, you get the government you deserve. With a population of 20k and only 3000 registered voters, you could win a precinct election by knocking at literally every constituents door. A colleagues husband got into the state senate as a democrat in a heavily republican district by walking house to house and engaging people (once in the senate he championed a radical pro-union leftist agenda and only lasted one term, idiot).

        • kaldridgewv2211

          Member
          March 5, 2015 at 7:16 am

          The thing that seems like it’s missing here is what the fines or tickets are for.  There’s areas around here that are known for ticketing, like Cleveland Heights might be the parking meter capital of Ohio.  It’s also the one place you’re sure to get a ticket when the meter is expired.

          • kayla.meyer_144

            Member
            March 5, 2015 at 8:03 am

            Quote from DICOM_Dan

            The thing that seems like it’s missing here is what the fines or tickets are for.  There’s areas around here that are known for ticketing, like Cleveland Heights might be the parking meter capital of Ohio.  It’s also the one place you’re sure to get a ticket when the meter is expired.

            Here’s what it’s about, money. Municipal revenue & police power. Citizens are cash machines. Walking ATMs. Nobody “elects” this form of policing. Unless we are back in the Jim Crow South in the early 1960’s & before.
             
            [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/us/us-details-a-persistent-pattern-of-police-discrimination-in-a-small-missouri-city.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…all-missouri-city.html[/link]
             

            A 32-year-old black man was sitting in his car, cooling off after playing basketball in a public park in the city of Ferguson, Mo. Then a police officer pulled up.

            The officer approached him and demanded his identification. He then accused the man of being a pedophile, since there were children in the park, and ordered him out of his car. When the man objected, the officer arrested him and charged him with eight violations of Fergusons municipal code, including a charge for not wearing a seatbelt, even though he was in a parked car.
             
            This encounter in summer 2012 in some ways appeared to be exactly how the criminal justice system in Ferguson had been designed to work, according to an investigation of the Ferguson Police Department released on Wednesday by the United States Justice Department. As described in the report, Ferguson, which is a majority black city but where nearly all city officials are white, acts less like a municipality and more like a self-perpetuating business enterprise, extracting money from poor blacks that it uses as revenue to sustain the citys budget.
             
            The efficiency of Fergusons system was as striking in the report as the bluntness with which officials acknowledged it.

            Unless ticket writing ramps up significantly before the end of the year, it will be hard to significantly raise collections, wrote the citys finance director to the Ferguson police chief in March 2010. What are your thoughts?

            Three years later, the finance director wrote to the city manager, saying that he had asked the Chief if he thought the PD could deliver 10% increase. He indicated they could try.
             
            Federal investigators found that the judge, the court clerk, the mayor, police supervisors and officials from Ferguson and other neighboring cities some of whom, the report pointed out, were quick to assert that black residents of Ferguson lacked a sense of personal responsibility routinely had tickets dismissed for themselves and their friends, pleading an honest mistake or suggesting that having a ticket dismissed would be a blessing.

            Your ticket of $200 has magically disappeared! read one email from the court clerk to one friend. Its gone baby! she wrote to another.

             
             

            • kaldridgewv2211

              Member
              March 5, 2015 at 9:04 am

              Quote from Frumious

              Quote from DICOM_Dan

              The thing that seems like it’s missing here is what the fines or tickets are for.  There’s areas around here that are known for ticketing, like Cleveland Heights might be the parking meter capital of Ohio.  It’s also the one place you’re sure to get a ticket when the meter is expired.

              Here’s what it’s about, money. Municipal revenue & police power. Citizens are cash machines. Walking ATMs. Nobody “elects” this form of policing. Unless we are back in the Jim Crow South in the early 1960’s & before.

              [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/us/us-details-a-persistent-pattern-of-police-discrimination-in-a-small-missouri-city.html]http://www.nytimes.com/20…all-missouri-city.html[/link]

              A 32-year-old black man was sitting in his car, cooling off after playing basketball in a public park in the city of Ferguson, Mo. Then a police officer pulled up.

              The officer approached him and demanded his identification. He then accused the man of being a pedophile, since there were children in the park, and ordered him out of his car. When the man objected, the officer arrested him and charged him with eight violations of Fergusons municipal code, including a charge for not wearing a seatbelt, even though he was in a parked car.

              This encounter in summer 2012 in some ways appeared to be exactly how the criminal justice system in Ferguson had been designed to work, according to an investigation of the Ferguson Police Department released on Wednesday by the United States Justice Department. As described in the report, Ferguson, which is a majority black city but where nearly all city officials are white, acts less like a municipality and more like a self-perpetuating business enterprise, extracting money from poor blacks that it uses as revenue to sustain the citys budget.

              The efficiency of Fergusons system was as striking in the report as the bluntness with which officials acknowledged it.

              Unless ticket writing ramps up significantly before the end of the year, it will be hard to significantly raise collections, wrote the citys finance director to the Ferguson police chief in March 2010. What are your thoughts?

              Three years later, the finance director wrote to the city manager, saying that he had asked the Chief if he thought the PD could deliver 10% increase. He indicated they could try.

              Federal investigators found that the judge, the court clerk, the mayor, police supervisors and officials from Ferguson and other neighboring cities some of whom, the report pointed out, were quick to assert that black residents of Ferguson lacked a sense of personal responsibility routinely had tickets dismissed for themselves and their friends, pleading an honest mistake or suggesting that having a ticket dismissed would be a blessing.

              Your ticket of $200 has magically disappeared! read one email from the court clerk to one friend. Its gone baby! she wrote to another.

               
              I just find it hard to buy into the police gouging Fergusson because they are minorities.  I don’t see it as a problem specific to Fergusson or minorities.  Cleveland had red light and speed cams.  I got a red light camera violation mailed to me, I’m pretty sure I didn’t run the light, and the options are go to court or pay $100 to make it go away.  I took the pay $100.  That was one of the worst tickets too because the traffic cameras are run by a for profit, it truely is a business giving out tickets.  There’s forms of this going on everywhere.  There’s a 40 yard section of Interstate 90 that runs through Lindale on the west side of Cleveland.  It’s known as speed trap because the cops of that city just sit there and write tickets all day.

            • ruszja

              Member
              March 5, 2015 at 9:47 am

              Quote from Frumious

              Here’s what it’s about, money. Municipal revenue & police power. Citizens are cash machines. Walking ATMs. Nobody “elects” this form of policing. Unless we are back in the Jim Crow South in the early 1960’s & before.

               
              The city of Ferguson tripled its revenue from tickets in the last 5 years. In the same period, voter participation at municipal elections was 8.9%, 11.7% and 12%.
               
              Yes, the citizens of Ferguson elected to be policed and ticketed this way. It would take a couple of hundred signatures each to get a slate of candidates on the ballot that stands for dismantling the police and ceding policing and ticketing to St Louis County. Instead of walking down to the municipal court to defend a ticket, they’ll have to take a bus to Clayton. Instead of complaining to their councilmember at the barbershop about the police chief, their concerns will be lost among those of 1 million others in the county.
               
              Dismantling that revenue generator would require raising taxes to pay for necessary government services like fire protection and road maintenance. The idea of raising revenue through ticketing is that some of the revenue comes into the community from outside sources. In this case, it is true in the sense that the police doesn’t ticket the white homeowners who elect them as they seem to be able to keep tags and to signal before they turn. 
               
              Next month on april 7th, there will be another municipal election in Ferguson. If only 30% of blacks show up to vote, the town could have a majority black city council.  I hear its all better and all the problems go away if the city administration is majority black, just look at Atlanta, the district of Columbia, Prince Georges County, St Louis City and Detroit. But it doesn’t look like there will be much change. Only 128 new voters have registered since the shooting. People had time to spend days rioting and demonstrating, they didn’t have time to go to the board of elections and pick up a voter registration card. But oh my gosh, if you register to vote, you may get called for jury duty…. Well, if you dont register, you can continue to complain that someone was tried by an ‘all white jury’.
               
               

              • kayla.meyer_144

                Member
                March 5, 2015 at 10:08 am

                Statewide turnout for voting is only around 35% for Missouri. Hardly a dramatic turnout in general.
                 
                But I agree, if you don’t turn out to vote, the election will go to those who do get out & vote.
                 
                That said, it does not allow behavior like that shown by Ferguson municipality & police. Getting elected does not give me a pass to prey upon the less powerful and influential even granting that the less powerful & influential did not vote.  Citizens who do not vote are not automatically the mark of some government con game. The Constitution does not have an 11th Bill of Rights saying those who don’t vote are allowed to be victimized.

                • odayjassim1978_476

                  Member
                  March 5, 2015 at 11:20 am

                  agree people have to vote

                  • kayla.meyer_144

                    Member
                    March 6, 2015 at 3:38 am

                    Interesting, the story on gouging and victimizing the poor, especially the minority poor is almost a non-story. A “the police wouldn’t do that” to a so-what to a they virtually deserved it reactions.

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      March 6, 2015 at 5:10 am

                      I heard a Professor talking about Ferguson yesterday and it really got me thinking of the complexity of the Ferguson problem (and similar problems in other places).
                       
                      [link=http://www.npr.org/2015/03/05/391041893/doj-report-condemns-ferguson-police-departments-practices]http://www.npr.org/2015/0…-departments-practices[/link]
                       

                       I’d say that some of the most striking things for me though, are the ways in which {the DOJ report} connected the dots between the economic component of what was happening and the public safety component. They literally said in one of their recommendations that stops needed to be reflective of a public safety interest and not a revenue-generating interest. And that is unprecedented. I have never seen a document like this in my time working on these issues that so roundly condemns a department’s patterns and practices of behavior.
                       
                      <snip>
                       
                       The second thing – and actually for me, more important than that – we imagine that engagement with the criminal justice system starts with the police. And that’s, I think, an irresponsibly small myopic way to think about it. If we imagine there’s racism within law enforcement – and I don’t imagine it, I know to be true – we also have to imagine that there’s racism in employment, in housing, in education. And all those things happen upstream of contact with criminal justice. And so what happens is, if you’ve had all those negative experiences, those unfair experiences that shape your life, then the numbers that show up, some of that has got to be police doing their job right, and it’s the education system and the employment systems that have disadvantaged certain communities. It’s not to say there’s no racial bias in law enforcement and it’s not to say there’s not evidence of it in Ferguson. I just want to make sure that we don’t use those statistics just as a sort of shock and awe to say wow, it’s really terrible here.
                       
                       
                      Now, as someone who works with these numbers, I’m not shocked by them. They’re not massively larger than some other jurisdictions where I’ve seen.
                       
                      And that in and of itself is a problem. But what I do resist is the idea that when we see shockingly disparate numbers that the police are the only place where we need to bring responsibility and accountability. We have a racial problem in this country. It’s not just a race in policing problem.
                       

                      Phillip Atiba Goff is president of the Center for Policing Equity. He’s a professor at UCLA visiting this year at the Kennedy School at Harvard.
                       

                    • ruszja

                      Member
                      March 6, 2015 at 7:12 am

                      From the article dergon cited.
                       
                      [i]SIEGEL: Well, let’s review some of the specific numbers. Although African-Americans make up only 67 percent of Ferguson’s population, they accounted for 85 percent of vehicle stops, 90 percent of citations and 93 percent of arrests by Ferguson police within a two-year period. Also 90 percent of documented force by police was against African-Americans. Is there any way to document whether profiling and discriminatory practices are worse in Ferguson than in other places in the country?[/i]
                       
                      This shows the fallacy of looking at raw numbers. From everything that has been reported about Ferguson, the town has been undergoing ‘demographic change’ over the last 25 years. 28% o the population of Ferguson is younger than 18 years 51% of the population is below 35. The way this shift usually happens, the white folks who stay behind in these communities are on average older than the african americans who move in. Older people have fewer police encounters. Without a careful look at whether a black or white person doing the same thing is any more or less likely to be stopped by the police, those 85/93/90% numbers are meaningless.
                       
                      Many political subdivisions operate their police courts as revenue generating mechanisms. Ferguson may be particularly blatant, but they are certainly not alone. Only a few states cap the level of traffic fines and require all fines to be paid to the state, not the political subdivision. That’s how it should be, a traffic fine should be levied to discourage behavior, not fill budget holes. It is disingenious for Holders DOJ to fault Ferguson for operating as a revenue generator when DOJ does the same thing with their forfeiture actions and how they shake down the banks for issues related to the mortgage crisis.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      March 6, 2015 at 8:00 am

                      No one said Ferguson was alone, only blatant. Ticketing is apparently a major enough income source. Nice gimmick, make someone a criminal just so they can be converted to income sources for the local government. And it all becomes self-justifying, after all we are talking of “criminals” here, and they are minorities so what can one expect.
                       
                      Further int the reports are how people with connections got the tickets expunged – AKA, disappeared – & then received an email saying the ticket was disappeared.
                       
                      More than a racket, creating criminals out of thin air & focusing on doing that on the minority community because again, who else are criminals. Self justifying system, every is happy.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      March 8, 2015 at 4:37 am

                      Interesting, argue that a black man who was shot dead might have been innocent & actually murdered by authorities and vigilantes & you get pages and pages of argument.
                       
                      Argue and actually show that communities of color are victimized and seen as cash machines and created as criminals by the system of police and courts and you are lucky to fill up one page of discussion.
                       
                      Why might that be? Because it might go against the grain of our attitudes of communities of color & the problems in such communities being their own faults? It goes against the grain of thinking police and courts are there to help & not victimize citizens?
                       
                      Citizens as cash machines. OK so long as the application is selective?

                    • btomba_77

                      Member
                      March 11, 2015 at 1:05 pm

                      Now the exodus begins –
                       
                      Police Chief, City Manager, a Judge, and others all out.
                       
                      [link=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-ferguson-city-manager-out-20150310-story.html]http://www.chicagotribune…ut-20150310-story.html[/link]

                    • odayjassim1978_476

                      Member
                      March 11, 2015 at 2:33 pm

                      wonder if the mayor will stay on…

                      Quote from dergon

                      Now the exodus begins –

                      Police Chief, City Manager, a Judge, and others all out.

                      [link=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-ferguson-city-manager-out-20150310-story.html]http://www.chicagotribune…ut-20150310-story.html[/link]

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      March 11, 2015 at 3:13 pm

                      The whole County should resign since Ferguson is only the place caught with it’s hand in the cookie jar. Maybe the State should resign?
                       
                      In any case it’s still Obama’s fault. And Holder.

                    • odayjassim1978_476

                      Member
                      March 11, 2015 at 4:07 pm

                      everybody in these states know they can see cops/state patrollers hiding on the street/freeways so they can get an easy speeding ticket to raise funds

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      December 12, 2015 at 7:22 am

                      Snow in July, George Will agrees with me about municipalities preying on poor &  minorities by using fees instead of raising taxes to pay for government. The focus of government is to raise revenue by using the courts and police to create criminals.
                       
                      [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-missouri-town-demands-substantive-due-process/2015/12/11/609d0e6c-9f60-11e5-8728-1af6af208198_story.html]https://www.washingtonpos…af6af208198_story.html[/link]
                       

                      If Pagedale, Mo., is a glimpse of the future, the future is going to be annoying. Pagedale might represent the future of governance unless some of its residents succeed in their lawsuit against their government. If they do, it will be because they successfully invoked the principle of substantive due process.
                       
                      Pagedale is 1.19 square miles of St. Louis County. Approximately [link=http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5e273a90389145ec8453e23ec934a9c8/federal-lawsuit-questions-st-louis-suburbs-municipal-fines]93 percent[/link]of its more than 3,000 residents are African American and about 25 percent live below the poverty line. There is not much of a tax base for their government. But supposed necessity does not confer constitutionality on Pagedales decision to budget on the assumption of a steady blizzard of capricious fines.
                       
                      Missouris legislature, noting excessive reliance on traffic tickets, [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/09/us/missouri-lawmakers-agree-to-limit-revenue-from-traffic-fines.html]put a low cap on the portion [/link]a community could raise of its budget from this source. So now [link=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/sns-201511061230–tms–msanchezctnms-a20151106-20151106-column.html]40 percent[/link] of Pagedales tickets are for non-traffic offenses. Since 2010,
                      such tickets [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/05/us/lawsuit-accuses-missouri-city-of-fining-homeowners-to-raise-revenue.html]have increased 495 percent[/link]. In 2013, the city [link=http://ij.org/ll/december-2015-volume-24-issue-6/small-town-uses-code-enforcement-laws-big-payoffs/]collected $356,601[/link] in fines and fees. But Pagedales misfortune might be Americas good fortune now that the constitutional litigators from the Institute for Justice are representing some Pagedale residents.
                       
                      The institute argues that the city is subordinating the administration of justice to the goal of generating revenue, even limiting court hours in order to cause people to fail to meet requirements, thereby subjecting them to more fines. But the citys pecuniary interest in particular judicial outcomes, which creates an appearance of bias, is not the crux of the argument that the city is violating the 14th Amendment guarantee that Americans shall not be deprived of life, liberty or property without [link=https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv]due process of law[/link]. The entire nation should hope that this small citys pettiness will be stopped by a court that says this: The due process clause, properly construed, prohibits arbitrary government action, particularly that which unjustifiably restricts individuals liberties.
                       
                      [b]Governments are ravenous for revenue to fund the promises that purchase votes. But the governed are resistant to taxes. So governments increasingly resort to arbitrary behavior that is difficult to distinguish from theft. Which is why all Americans have a huge stake in the correct resolution of this case from a small Missouri city.[/b]

                       
                       

                       

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      May 5, 2023 at 5:14 am

                      DOJ finally investigating municipalities that prey on the poor to fund local government offices.
                       
                      [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/03/doj-court-fees-cruel-punishment/]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/03/doj-court-fees-cruel-punishment/[/link]

                      Nearly a decade ago, a [link=https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf]federal investigation[/link] into the Ferguson, Mo., police department drew [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/?itid=lk_inline_manual_2]widespread attention[/link] to how many municipalities rely on funding from hefty court fees and fines, often resulting from minor automobile-related violations. This [link=https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/06/us/ferguson-missouri-racism-tickets-fines/index.html]encourages aggressive enforcement[/link] and leads to modern-day debtor prisons, in which poor people are incarcerated not for any underlying criminal conduct only for lacking money to afford escalating penalties.
                       

                      The Obama Justice Department issued guidance aimed at limiting this pervasive and predatory practice. But the Trump administration, under Attorney General Jeff Sessions, [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-rescinds-justice-dept-letter-asking-courts-to-be-wary-of-stiff-fines-and-fees-for-poor-defendants/2017/12/21/46e37316-e690-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?itid=lk_inline_manual_4]rescinded it in 2017[/link]. Last month, the Biden Justice Department [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/22/justice-department-fines-pardons-gupta/?itid=lk_inline_manual_4]released a more robust version[/link] of the Obama-era memo that lays the groundwork for legal challenges to excessive court fees.
                       

                      [link=https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1580546/download]Associate Attorney General Vanita Gupta[/link] argued that [link=https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-issues-dear-colleague-letter-courts-regarding-fines-and-fees-youth-and]overly burdensome fees and fines[/link] violate several constitutional rights: The Eighth Amendment bans cruel and unusual punishment, prohibiting costs that are grossly disproportionate to the severity of the offense; the Sixth Amendment requires due process protections, such as access to counsel, when unpaid fines might lead to jailtime; and the 14th Amendment prohibits incarceration for not paying fees without establishing that failing to do so was willful and considering alternative punishments, she argued..

                       
                       
                      But the problem persists. [b]A county in Kentucky with just over 100,000 people [link=https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/2023/04/25/why-are-we-still-sending-people-to-jail-for-being-poor-its-time-to-truly-abolish-debtors-prisons/]reportedly jailed six people[/link] in a single week last November for non-payment of court costs, fees, or fines. Hundreds of people get [link=https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/01/09/think-debtors-prisons-are-a-thing-of-the-past-not-in-mississippi]sentenced to restitution centers[/link] every year in Mississippi. Theres a systemic racial element: A [link=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nevada-drivers-can-be-arrested-unpaid-tickets-activists-are-fighting-n1266673]Nevada study found[/link] that African Americans constitute 13 percent of Clark Countys population but are the targets of 44 percent of arrest warrants issued for failing to pay a traffic ticket.[/b]
                       

                      As attorney general, Mr. Sessions also [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/01/us/politics/office-of-access-to-justice-department-closed.html]shuttered the Office for Access to Justice[/link], which the Obama administration created to help people with low incomes navigate the legal system.

                       
                      [b]But state and local governments cross the line when, first, they fail to consider someones ability to pay and, second, they rely on fees to fund extraneous projects and programs unrelated to the courts functioning. [link=https://reason.org/policy-brief/fines-and-fees-consequences-and-opportunities-for-reform/]The Justice Departments 2015 report[/link] said policing practices in Ferguson were shaped by the citys focus on revenue rather than by public safety needs. That should never be the case.[/b]
                       

        • kayla.meyer_144

          Member
          March 5, 2015 at 7:56 am

          “the government they elected?”
           
          So gouging poor minorities for revenue is a government we elect?
           
          I’ll bet you those minorities never elected that government.
           
          For that matter, when I received a ticket for “speeding @ 61 MPH” & was explicitly told by the prosecutor that “it’s all about money,” I can assure you I never elected such a government.

          • ruszja

            Member
            March 5, 2015 at 8:00 am

            Quote from Frumious

            “the government they elected?”

            So gouging poor minorities for revenue is a government we elect?

            I’ll bet you those minorities never elected that government.

            They did, by not showing up to be counted.

            Last municipal election. Black voter turnout: 6%

            Stop complaining.
            – get an ID
            – register
            – vote
            There is even a t-shirt for that.

      • Unknown Member

        Deleted User
        March 6, 2015 at 5:39 am

        Quote from Frumious

        OK, so government is always bad. What’s your alternative?

         
        How about the free enterprise system. 

        • kaldridgewv2211

          Member
          March 6, 2015 at 6:15 am

          Free enterprise being the red light camera companies, no thanks. There shouldn’t be private interest in ticketing people. The same goes for jailing people.

        • kayla.meyer_144

          Member
          March 6, 2015 at 6:31 am

          Quote from Silent Cool

          Quote from Frumious

          OK, so government is always bad. What’s your alternative?

          How about the free enterprise system. 

          So set up a free enterprise system without government. How would “free enterprise” operate as its own government for all of us?