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  • Exiting before 40

    Posted by BILAONTI on September 4, 2023 at 12:57 pm

    Is that too early for retirement from radiology and a disservice to the profession? This question is in part inspired by the post about the average radiologists lifespan and assuming this person can financially handle full retirement or can pivot to a different and possibly lower paying job.

    buckeyeguy replied 10 months, 3 weeks ago 15 Members · 21 Replies
  • 21 Replies
  • abstone38_669

    Member
    September 4, 2023 at 1:00 pm

    No disservice. Its your life. Do what you want. I dont blame anyone these days for trying to exit radiology early if they can.

    • erasmopa

      Member
      September 4, 2023 at 1:35 pm

      Its fairly simple. If physicians owe it to society to work, then society owes it to physicians to make it a job worth continuing. The money is still good, but every other aspect seems to get worse every year.

      • smfst7_929

        Member
        September 4, 2023 at 1:58 pm

        If I had 15 mill, I’d be out now.  A bit dicey to retire without 15 mill at 40 though imo.  If economy tanks again soon, the govt may decide it’s preferable to lower rates again and run hot inflation.  They could even tolerate inflation at 4-5% if they’re crazy enough.  4-5% inflation per year would erode your savings quite a bit.  Consider with 4% inflation, 15 mill would be worth about 5 mill in today’s dollars in 2055. If 2% average inflation you’re talking 15 mill being worth about 7 mill. 
         
        Retiring at 40 with 2 million seems crazy unless you are a lot happier doing a lower paying job.  If you’re frugal and can live on less than 100k a year, you can probably make 2 million work.

        • DanielQuilli

          Member
          September 4, 2023 at 2:26 pm

          Makes no sense to exit completely at 40 unless you have F U money, work part time and have plenty to enjoy your time without eating into your capital.

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            September 4, 2023 at 2:32 pm

            Whatever floats your boat. As long as you do your back squats and supplement protein.

            • afazio.uk_887

              Member
              September 4, 2023 at 2:46 pm

              In that scenario, I would not be doing a disservice to Radiology, but rather to myself.

              It took years of sacrifice and work to get to this point that it would be a shame to stop doing Rads prematurely, or even ever at all fully stopping Rads.

              • 260268

                Member
                September 4, 2023 at 5:48 pm

                You should follow your passions in this world, and if its not radiology, get out and go find your own path. Even if you are <40. It seems like a rather unusual situation to be ready to call it quits before 40, almost certainly less than 10 years out of training. Unless you are wealthy through inheritance of other unusual circumstances, or live a very frugal lifestyle having enough money by 40 would be unusual. If your under 40 and made big money grinding at a high volume place, it would probably be smart to try a lifestyle job first before giving it up. 
                 
                I am not a believer that you as an individual “owe” anything to the profession. I have heard this from a few docs over the years, but just never bought into it. 

              • tdetlie_105

                Member
                September 5, 2023 at 4:41 pm

                Quote from Waduh Dong

                In that scenario, I would not be doing a disservice to Radiology, but rather to myself.

                It took years of sacrifice and work to get to this point that it would be a shame to stop doing Rads prematurely, or even ever at all fully stopping Rads.

                 
                While I agree with “to each their own”, I feel the same way as you.  Way too much invested in time/money/effort to call it quits.  I have a solid job so maybe that helps.  I’ve had bad radiology jobs and good ones-these are essentially like different careers with respect to satisfaction, stress levels, feeling valued etc

            • jeevonbenning_648

              Member
              September 5, 2023 at 8:21 am

              Best advice so far.

              Also, I still don’t get advice based on net worth numbers. What matters is what asset classes are you invested in, what is your corporate and legal structure, how much cash flow does it produce, and what tax incentives are you taking advantage of?

              2 million in equity is 5 million dollars in real estate value, at a conservative 10% return that you’re legally not paying taxes on is $200,000 to live on post tax.

              Now if you’re following traditional retirement advice to get that same 200,000 dollars after taxes you’re going to need north of 5 million and more likely 7 million.

              I would think being around a lot of intelligent people this would be common sense. Likely is that radiologists are working too much and are not looking into the tax incentives of real estate.

              • buckeyeguy

                Member
                September 5, 2023 at 6:18 pm

                Quote from Re3iRtH

                Best advice so far.

                Also, I still don’t get advice based on net worth numbers. What matters is what asset classes are you invested in, what is your corporate and legal structure, how much cash flow does it produce, and what tax incentives are you taking advantage of?

                2 million in equity is 5 million dollars in real estate value, at a conservative 10% return that you’re legally not paying taxes on is $200,000 to live on post tax.

                Now if you’re following traditional retirement advice to get that same 200,000 dollars after taxes you’re going to need north of 5 million and more likely 7 million.

                I would think being around a lot of intelligent people this would be common sense. Likely is that radiologists are working too much and are not looking into the tax incentives of real estate.

                 
                Notice that even re3irth and I, who are adamant about time > money (and experiences) still don’t guarantee that we’ll give up rads entirely. With all the credentialing involved, and how fun it is to solve the diagnostic puzzles (as long as it isn’t nonsense study after nonsense study and just stress), why would you eliminate it entirely? I probably won’t, but that does take some managing of the career, the licensing, the credentialing processes, etc.
                 
                By far the biggest investment mistake I see is not owning some BTC. Funny enough, I think even Dr. Real Estate is in this crowd. Some people like to learn the hard way.

            • buckeyeguy

              Member
              September 5, 2023 at 6:11 pm

              Quote from Flounce

              Whatever floats your boat. As long as you do your back squats and supplement protein.

               
              Does that mean don’t do front squats or just make sure you do back squats? Also, I enjoy the argument that deads are better all around. As we age, it’s not like lifting heavy matters anyway, unless you are roidin’

        • khodadadi_babak89

          Member
          September 4, 2023 at 10:36 pm

          Quote from sartoriusBIG

          If I had 15 mill, I’d be out now.  A bit dicey to retire without 15 mill at 40 though imo.  If economy tanks again soon, the govt may decide it’s preferable to lower rates again and run hot inflation.  They could even tolerate inflation at 4-5% if they’re crazy enough.  4-5% inflation per year would erode your savings quite a bit.  Consider with 4% inflation, 15 mill would be worth about 5 mill in today’s dollars in 2055. If 2% average inflation you’re talking 15 mill being worth about 7 mill. 

          Retiring at 40 with 2 million seems crazy unless you are a lot happier doing a lower paying job.  If you’re frugal and can live on less than 100k a year, you can probably make 2 million work.

           
          Wait, wait, wait, I really disagree with this. 
          A well studied principle of finanicial management is called modern portfolio management. The basic idea is that you can withdraw 4-5% of you nestegg per year, and you will never run out of money. THis has been tested against all historic market conditions. To extend this – it means if you will not run out of money – then it must INCREASE through time. And that is true.
          this has been tested through All market conditions, bull and bear, and through cycles of inflation. It also assumes a pretty bland portfolio – something like 20% bond funds and 80% market index funds.
          The one caveat is: what is the tax position of your investments. If they are all IRAs and the like, you have a marginal tax rate of ~ 39% or so. If they are not in IRAs, but invested in bonds/securities, then you only pay a tax rate for capital gains. This is a big difference.

          So, if you can live on 4% of your nestegg, you are good.

          And – to the OP  – two bits of advice 1) get yourself a financial advisor with a reputable firm that charges you a percent of the funds they manage. This way, when you win, they win, and vice versa 2) If you quit now, it is a one way street, your skills deteriorate, and you may not be employable in radiology after a few years. I would advise you to pull out all the stops to find a job that is compatible with your life goals. It will be work ,but not nearly as much as it took to be qualified for the job in the first place. Years ago, I left a bad job, and found one that fit me, and it was truly a new beginning. I was giddily happy.
          Later, when the job became difficult because of the intrusion of a PE firm, I had my  retirement fund all set, and I had an ace in the hole – I could walk out any day. Literally. And people knew it. THey were  nicer to me than others. And I could concentrate my efforts on areas I liked, and they left me alone to do my thing. Not the very best employment situation, but certainly tolerable. 

          • r.stolze_447

            Member
            September 5, 2023 at 2:14 am

            please note that with the 4% rule, a retiree will gradually draw down on his net assets but will not reach zero before he dies.  The problem is Bengen assumed retirement at normal retirement age and so only did computations for 30 years.  I don’t know that anyone has tried carrying things out to 50 years for a 40 yo retirement.

            • BILAONTI

              Member
              September 5, 2023 at 6:00 am

              In my mind, I would wonder what future patients are owed.  After all, taxpayers/patients help fund education for residencies.
               
              Professionally, it feels like mental stagnation after 5 years of practice. The education and training were challenging. However, it eventually becomes repetitive and the main challenge now is keeping up with volume and deciding where on the ROC curve to operate. This feeling probably masquerades as burnout and took a while to realize. An easier radiology job wont scratch that itch.

              • aldoctc

                Member
                September 5, 2023 at 7:41 am

                Quote from corner_reflector

                In my mind, I would wonder what future patients are owed.  After all, taxpayers/patients help fund education for residencies.

                Professionally, it feels like mental stagnation after 5 years of practice. The education and training were challenging. However, it eventually becomes repetitive and the main challenge now is keeping up with volume and deciding where on the ROC curve to operate. This feeling probably masquerades as burnout and took a while to realize. An easier radiology job wont scratch that itch.

                 
                As for any sense of obligation you feel….  Get over it and get over yourself.  Lots of people change jobs/careers and the world goes on.  Seem to remember that about half of newly minted teachers aren’t teaching after 5 years.  Cops, firefighters, nurses, etc. all have significant turnover.  If your job/career is shredding your soul on a daily basis, every day is a day wasted.  If you’re resisting pulling the trigger b/c of some putative debt/obligation, you’ve got other issues going on; figure ’em out first.  
                 
                I get the mental stagnation angle.  Have you considered academics?  Might float your boat and you can get back to the ivory tower pretty easily.   After I’d been out about 5 years or so, I decided to learn one new thing a year to keep my interest up (e.g. HRCT, prostate MRI, new NM tracers, etc.).  One new thing a year sounds lame, especially when you’re close to the end of training, but it’s better than NOT learning one new thing a year and it gives the mind something else to think about besides how much work is on your list.  That said, what’s worked for me might not work for someone else.  
                 
                Mostly I think you’ll have to be very clear and serious about your finances.  You’ve been out 5 years and should have a very high income; will be challenging to maintain that if you leave radiology.  I know from personal experience (divorce) that large changes in one’s financial position are very stressful.  Hedonic adaptation is real and a bee-yotch to get past.  Careful planning and bouncing your plans off a financial advisor (as in, a REAL advisor, not a salesman looking to get you into an annuity) as others have suggested is a great idea.  
                 

                • BILAONTI

                  Member
                  September 5, 2023 at 11:22 am

                  I think youre correct about some internal conflict and false sense of obligation. Thank you for that and Ill keep it mind as I decide to leave.

                  I have a modest living situation and dont worry about trying to live a lifestyle that doesnt match my personality.

                • jeevonbenning_648

                  Member
                  September 5, 2023 at 12:16 pm

                  Well said. One caveat, that if you maintained the same/similar lifestyle as you had as a resident though your staff years, they you don’t have to worry about hedonic adaptation. I’ve specifically trained myself to live on $2K/mo and $10K/mo and to not feel any different in contentedness, I would argue spending less (on stuff) is actually better since you have less “things” weighing you down. You can always choose to work more or longer if you are financially free already, but if not, you can be forced into a situation that you may not be happy in.

        • jeevonbenning_648

          Member
          September 5, 2023 at 8:16 am

          Highly dependent on where you live and your lifestyle. I think it is irresponsible just to throw a random number out that may work for you whereas the reality might be a lot lower or higher for someone else.

          Don’t assume someone else needs the same things or will live in the same place as you.

    • jeevonbenning_648

      Member
      September 5, 2023 at 8:15 am

      I appreciate this kind of sentiment. I don’t often see it.

  • jeevonbenning_648

    Member
    September 5, 2023 at 8:02 am

    I did it age 37. Couldn’t be happier.

    Financially, I was work optional by age 35 but still had two years left in my military service.

    I’m in the middle of 8 months off traveling, and slowly transitioning to a part-time location independent practice. I can’t spend the dividends that my real estate shoots off but I’ve always loved radiology as it brings me great joy and stimulates the mind so I will continue doing that for about 15 hours per week.

    You’re not going to get any prizes or commendation at the end of the day for having worked more or worked harder or made more money at your day job.

    The more you work at a day job the more in taxes you are paying at the highest rate for every dollar you make.

    On this forum and doctors in general are going to convince you that you need to work longer and make more money. But this says more about them than it does about you. They feel inadequate or pressured. Or both. Or they feel they won’t have enough money at the day, fear divorce, or some irrational fear that their colleagues won’t see them as worthy.

    You don’t get exponentially happier by staring at a higher number on a screen. You get happier by doing more with your free time and seeing more of the world, all while improving your health.

  • reza800p_368

    Member
    September 5, 2023 at 2:28 pm

    Quote from corner_reflector

    Is that too early for retirement from radiology and a disservice to the profession? This question is in part inspired by the post about the average radiologists lifespan and assuming this person can financially handle full retirement or can pivot to a different and possibly lower paying job.

     
    Do what you think is the best FOR YOU now. Forget about what other people thin about you. You don’t owe anybody anything. But you owe yourself a good life. 

    Rather than early retirement, consider per diem or part time work.