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  • Every figure in this article seems high- WaPo: Average Salary of Physicians is $350,000.

    Posted by Unknown Member on August 7, 2023 at 10:38 am

    Along with the average, there’s a table in this article for the average salary for each subspecialty. These figures seem high to me. What does everyone else think?
     
    They have Diagnostic Radiology at $546,700.  
     
    [link=https://wapo.st/3rVBqqB]https://wapo.st/3rVBqqB[/link]

    buckeyeguy replied 11 months, 1 week ago 25 Members · 84 Replies
  • 84 Replies
  • 22002469

    Member
    August 7, 2023 at 11:01 am

    Its a comically cherry-picked and slanted article.

    For one, they are only using age 40-55. If you want to look at the 45ish year curve if a physician, you have med school, residency, pre-partner salary and then winding down later in a career. If you want to use only the middle third at the top of the curve and lop off both ends, the salary will of course look higher.

    Also, theyre adding in all non medical salary that those in the top few % are making. If you do that in any field the numbers will skew high.

    The chart with the average of the top 50%, 25%, 10%, 5% and 1% as the very first chart in the article is a funny way to have the biggest possible numbers right up front. Sure, the average after you cut out the bottom X% and do the math only on the top Y% is going to look high.

    Just another annoying article not addressing so many issues such as decreasing reimbursement, inflation, and true bloat (insurance companies). While implying the 8% of healthcare expense is somehow the problem. Gross.

  • mwakamiya

    Member
    August 7, 2023 at 11:03 am

    Many of these do not distinguish gross income from actual take-home pay after expenses. 
    350 K may seem high but take away 20 – 30 K for med mal, 10 K for CME expenses, licensure/board costs 3 k a year, health care (about 1 K a month), etc. 
    That 350 K starts looking more like 290 K or 280 K. 

    • satyanar

      Member
      August 7, 2023 at 12:53 pm

      WAPO with comically cherry-picked and slanted. Who knew!

      • satyanar

        Member
        August 7, 2023 at 1:07 pm

        We should hear from Frumi soon but hes probably busy yelling at people on the comments section.

        • mircea.cg_544

          Member
          August 7, 2023 at 1:31 pm

          Justification for Medicare cuts.

          • reza800p_368

            Member
            August 7, 2023 at 2:12 pm

            Total bull$hit.

            So an average Neurosurgeon makes 920?
            10 percent of physicians make more than 1.3 mil?
            25% of physicians make more than 870 K?
            Average salary of hem-onc is 600 K?

            Where are all these doctors that I don’t see?

            • kiqbns_134

              Member
              August 7, 2023 at 2:34 pm

              Not sure this is a problem in CA. In most cities you still cant afford a house with that salary after taxes and are squarely in the middle class. Physicians work harder than pretty much anyone. The unique thing about medicine is you can make that same amount in central Mississippi where cost of living is 10x less. We generally exist outside of the economy since were paid on pretty much a national scale.

              • kiqbns_134

                Member
                August 7, 2023 at 3:06 pm

                Also this stuff is obnoxious how bad our PR is as a group. AMA and ACR should actually do work on this.

                Why doesnt the article title go: “your doctor gets paid 5-10 dollars to read your x ray”. ” Physicians work nights days weekends and cared for you during the pandemic but have been taking pay cuts against inflation for past 20 years”…. “1st year 22 yo meta employee makes more than physician”… “physicians pay highest percentage of income in taxes than pretty much anyone as practice ownership is nearly impossible due to regulation” “Douchebag device sales dude makes more than surgeon doing the actual work” “working as nurse in CA makes more financial sense than being a primary care physician in CA, which is explains shortage” etc… we could do so many fun ones. Let me know if they need help

                • daberechimoses59_164

                  Member
                  August 7, 2023 at 3:55 pm

                  Best post I have seen. Exactly. Why isnt there an article titled hospital administrators dont do jack s$&t but drive up the cost of healthcare and yet make hundreds of thousands to millions a year? Be careful what you wish for because with the physician shortage in this country, it wouldnt take a huge number of retirements , percentage wise, to send us into the abyss. Im 42 with a decent enough nest egg that if the bs gets too bad, I could pull the plug around 45 or 46. Lord help us if the noctors have to take over a significant percentage of care

                  • benoit.elens

                    Member
                    August 7, 2023 at 4:16 pm

                    Quote from tiger81

                    Best post I have seen. Exactly. Why isnt there an article titled hospital administrators dont do jack s$&t but drive up the cost of healthcare and yet make hundreds of thousands to millions a year? Be careful what you wish for because with the physician shortage in this country, it wouldnt take a huge number of retirements , percentage wise, to send us into the abyss. Im 42 with a decent enough nest egg that if the bs gets too bad, I could pull the plug around 45 or 46. Lord help us if the noctors have to take over a significant percentage of care

                     
                    If I would have guessed your age based on your username, I would have reached the correct conclusion.  Very strong work if you’re going to be FI by 45.  Unfortunately, I think that’s how we all need to think — get to that FI number quickly and then choose your own Radiology/life adventure.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 7, 2023 at 4:17 pm

                       
                      These numbers are not accurate. 

                    • mircea.cg_544

                      Member
                      August 7, 2023 at 4:28 pm

                      What, Not accurate? Everything on the al gore superhighway is true. Especially the WaPo.

                  • tdetlie_105

                    Member
                    August 8, 2023 at 4:20 pm

                    Quote from tiger81

                    Best post I have seen. Exactly. Why isnt there an article titled hospital administrators dont do jack s$&t but drive up the cost of healthcare and yet make hundreds of thousands to millions a year? Be careful what you wish for because with the physician shortage in this country, it wouldnt take a huge number of retirements , percentage wise, to send us into the abyss. Im 42 with a decent enough nest egg that if the bs gets too bad, I could pull the plug around 45 or 46. Lord help us if the noctors have to take over a significant percentage of care

                     
                    Point taken but I think as a profession, public perception of “greed wealthy” physicians is not all that important.  AMA (with support of others) is actively trying to get legislation passed that starts addressing the flawed CMS payment system (eg. zero sums game and no COL adjustment that hospitals automatically get).  This process may be slow/tedious but thats the way our system works.  You are mid career, just think how many boomers/late careers physicians still working that could walk away and/or stop accepting CMS unless things change.  I would recommend joining the AMA. 

                    • mircea.cg_544

                      Member
                      August 9, 2023 at 11:53 am

                      We are overpaid? Ups drivers now at 170k.

                      [link=https://fortune.com/2023/08/08/ups-drivers-170000-union-agreement-teamsters-middle-class-bidenomics/amp/]https://fortune.com/2023/…-class-bidenomics/amp/[/link]

                    • buckeyeguy

                      Member
                      August 9, 2023 at 3:42 pm

                      I love how all the people who look at such articles with sadness and skepticism, since it is so obvious they are forged/fudged/manipulate for PROPAGANDA’s sake at the same time
                       
                      don’t think other topics that hack entities like WaPo treat they do exactly the same thing
                       
                      wake up AM

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 10, 2023 at 9:46 am

                      CEO salaries. If any income deserves massive questioning, its these people.
                       
                      [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/11/business/dealbook/ceo-highest-pay.html]https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/11/business/dealbook/ceo-highest-pay.html[/link]
                       
                      [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/11/business/ceo-pay-compensation-stock.html]https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/11/business/ceo-pay-compensation-stock.html[/link]
                       
                       

                    • buckeyeguy

                      Member
                      August 10, 2023 at 12:59 pm

                      Teachers are the most overpaid of all groups in America. We’ve heard the opposite for decades, while they laughed to the bank.
                       
                      CEO nonsense of course is a scam, but you can’t even be honest about teachers being average people, or worse (often), who barely work 3/4 of the year and get paid dookie tons, for … wait for it … babysitting.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 11, 2023 at 7:53 am

                      “And those in the top 1 percent averaged an astounding $4 million, though most of that (85 percent) came from business income or capital gains.”
                       
                      These are business people. Capital gains income needs to be subtracted from an analysis of physician labor value.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 11, 2023 at 7:59 am

                      “Physicians who graduate from the very top schools have 12% higher income than others, but this effect operates almost fully through access to specialties.”
                       
                      Interesting observation. Ivy grads constrained by government reimbursement rules.
                       
                      [link=https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4510223]https://papers.ssrn.com/s…fm?abstract_id=4510223[/link]

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 11, 2023 at 8:38 am

                      Is government guiding the invisible hand at the top of the labor market?
                       
                      Yes

                    • smfst7_929

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 9:18 am

                      WaPo isn’t concerned with facts. They have their own facts.  Of course they want to show physicians making more than they actually do.  They like to stick it to anyone making more than 150k.  

                    • radiologistkahraman_799

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 6:32 pm

                      Quote from jd4540

                      Quote from tiger81

                      Best post I have seen. Exactly. Why isnt there an article titled hospital administrators dont do jack s$&t but drive up the cost of healthcare and yet make hundreds of thousands to millions a year? Be careful what you wish for because with the physician shortage in this country, it wouldnt take a huge number of retirements , percentage wise, to send us into the abyss. Im 42 with a decent enough nest egg that if the bs gets too bad, I could pull the plug around 45 or 46. Lord help us if the noctors have to take over a significant percentage of care

                      Point taken but I think as a profession, public perception of “greed wealthy” physicians is not all that important.  AMA (with support of others) is actively trying to get legislation passed that starts addressing the flawed CMS payment system (eg. zero sums game and no COL adjustment that hospitals automatically get).  This process may be slow/tedious but thats the way our system works.  You are mid career, just think how many boomers/late careers physicians still working that could walk away and/or stop accepting CMS unless things change.  I would recommend joining the AMA. 

                       
                      It’s amazing/infuriating to think back some 20 years ago the purchasing power of docs/rads, before this graph became so skewed 

                    • buckeyeguy

                      Member
                      August 19, 2023 at 7:33 pm

                      I talk about it all the time, how a lot of rads for sure made as much or more than many now, up to 40 years ago, and that’s when you could buy a big, big house for 300k – and not in podunk.

                • satyanar

                  Member
                  August 7, 2023 at 4:43 pm

                  Read the comments. One of the first calls the AMA a union

                  Its tough to argue with the ignorant.

                  • ranweiss

                    Member
                    August 7, 2023 at 8:44 pm

                    I mean. 
                     
                    I would imagine literally everyone in private practice is making more or at least AT that number in rads. Probably many employed. Obviously not in the VA or many academic settings, outpatient only practices etc. 
                     
                    I can’t speak to other specialties. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 8, 2023 at 3:46 am

                      Everyone on AM is bragging about their incomes with numbers quoted far higher than this average? Now outrage that its published in an article. I dont get it.

                    • mircea.cg_544

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 6:49 am

                      Actually I believe it is a select few who brag. Most of us read their bragging either dont believe it, are envious, or wonder if we could do what they say they are.

                      You must make that much too and agree with it? I make much less and am either being completely screwed or the article is wrong. Having looked at several offersthe article is wrong.

                    • ranweiss

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 7:58 am

                      I have no intent to brag personally.

                      But if youre in a private or a decent employed gig anywhere in the USA – and not making mid 5s – I would imagine you are not a full time employee or youre doing some low volume outpatient gigs.

                      Thats the market.

          • Unknown Member

            Deleted User
            August 8, 2023 at 8:34 am

            Quote from xraygiggles

            Justification for Medicare cuts.

             
            Like you – or all of us – I am sick of taking the hit for high health care costs when it is the businesses running the show that are responsible – but they are experts at deflecting blame – which is why they can still increase profits, and our reimbursement goes down. 

            read this

            [link=https://www.medicaleconomics.com/view/why-richard-nixon-s-ghost-is-haunting-cms]https://www.medicaleconomics.com/view/why-richard-nixon-s-ghost-is-haunting-cms[/link]

             

            • kiqbns_134

              Member
              August 8, 2023 at 8:44 am

              This is our boy phil! ya great article and entirely all true. How do we get this guy a platform where people actually hear him? Maybe we can get him on some podcasts at least? should be published in a major newspaper too.

              • kiqbns_134

                Member
                August 8, 2023 at 8:53 am

                BTW… how off base is it to be suspicious that this article in the post was instigated by United Health, some large hospital system or the physician assistant lobby group? I would not be surprised

                • mircea.cg_544

                  Member
                  August 8, 2023 at 9:37 am

                  5s the market? What states? Its not everywhere if that I can promise.

                • kayla.meyer_144

                  Member
                  August 8, 2023 at 9:37 am

                  Did no one read the article? Aside the disagreements over incomes which dr77767 points out the irony of earlier brags of incomes, the data comes from a working paper.
                   
                  [link=https://www.nber.org/papers/w31469]https://www.nber.org/papers/w31469[/link]

                  They come from a[link=https://www.nber.org/papers/w31469] working paper[/link], newly updated, that analyzes more than 10 million tax records from 965,000 physicians over 13 years.
                   
                  By accounting for all streams of income, they revealed that doctors make more than anyone thought and more than any other occupation weve measured. In the prime earning years of 40 to 55, the average physician made $405,000 in 2017 almost all of it (94 percent) from wages. Doctors in the top 10 percent averaged $1.3 million. And those in the top 1 percent averaged an astounding $4 million, though most of that (85 percent) came from business income or capital gains.

                  Yale University economist Jason Abaluck notes that when he asks the doctors and future doctors in his health economics classes why they earn so much, answers revolve around the brutal training required to enter the profession. Until they finish their residency, theyre working an enormous number of hours and their lifestyle is not the lifestyle of a rich person, Abaluck told us.

                  That is true. Our analysis of Census Bureau data shows that residents are in an exclusive class with oil field roughnecks when it comes to hours worked in their late 20s and early 30s; firefighting managers such as captains and lieutenants also come close. And those blue-collar jobs pay about as well as medical residencies  often a bit better. At least until the residents become physicians and settle into working fewer hours and earning, um, more.
                   

                  Residency also extends your education into your late 20s and beyond, cutting into your lifetime earning potential. And, as Abalucks students often point out, that long medical education also leads to astonishingly high student debt an average of $246,000 [link=https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/tub/graduate-student-loan-debt]as of 2017.[/link] But that debt almost vanishes against a physicians still more-than-robust expected $10 million in lifetime income.

                   

                  Further, the article points out a number of salient facts such as high CEO pay & the fact that physician incomes are not a significant cause of high cost of medicine.
                   

                  If health costs keep you up at night, research suggests there are better ways to rein them in than what Orr would call rationing the supply of doctors. Polyakova and her collaborators find doctor pay consumes only 8.6 percent of overall health spending. It grew a bit faster than inflation over the time period studied, but much slower than overall health-care costs.
                   

                  People have a narrative that physician earnings is one of the main drivers of high health-care costs in the U.S., Polyakova told us. It is kind of hard to support this narrative if ultimately physicians earn less than 10 percent of national health-care expenditures.

                   
                  The article also discusses physician shortage opening the way for NPs & PAs.
                   
                  Its not an attack on physicians & physician pay contrary to how some posters see it.

                  • 22002469

                    Member
                    August 8, 2023 at 10:26 am

                    You fell for the bait.

                    They throw in a few fair points to give a cursory both sides take, but its exceedingly clear the math was done intentionally to make salaries seem high.

                    Why use the average instead of median? Why only include peak salary years? Why include non medical business earnings?

                    This article and others like it are created to sway opinion re:high physician salaries.

                    Also, to other posts above, the data is from 2017 and has nothing to do with the current radiology market (rads in fact is a tiny fraction of the info in the article in general).

                    • luciairegui

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 10:58 am

                      WAPO is owned by Bezos. Expect more hit pieces as Amazon keeps expanding into the healthcare market. Amazon branded docs will get paid a fraction of this.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 11:13 am

                      A hit piece?
                       
                      Read the paper its based on. Maybe it will explain more than just being an anti-physician hit piece.
                       
                      [link=https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31469/w31469.pdf]https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31469/w31469.pdf[/link]

                    • 22002469

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 11:49 am

                      You mean the paper that says the median physician income for the period studied is 265k per year? The one that says in early 30s the average is 185k (not included in the #s for the article).
                       
                      The article’s first graph has averages of the top 1%, 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%, and all listed as:
                       
                      4.1M
                      1.8M
                      1.3M
                      871k
                      626k
                      404k
                       
                      Where are the averages for the bottom 50%, bottom 25%, bottom 10%, bottom 5%, bottom 1%?
                       
                      If you don’t see the agenda of the article (not the paper) I don’t know what to tell you. 
                       
                       

                    • smfst7_929

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 9:25 am

                      Quote from Radsoxfan

                      You mean the paper that says the median physician income for the period studied is 265k per year? The one that says in early 30s the average is 185k (not included in the #s for the article).

                      The article’s first graph has averages of the top 1%, 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%, and all listed as:

                      4.1M
                      1.8M
                      1.3M
                      871k
                      626k
                      404k

                      Where are the averages for the bottom 50%, bottom 25%, bottom 10%, bottom 5%, bottom 1%?

                      If you don’t see the agenda of the article (not the paper) I don’t know what to tell you. 

                      Yep you nailed it.  They present it in such a way as to obfuscate what most physicians make.  Including business income and including top outlier (with business income) into the average is frankly journalistic malfeasance.  It would be like including elon musk’s billions of comp into the equation to calculate the average Tesla employee’s compensation.  Yes, every tesla employee makes an average of 1 million!  How generous Tesla is to their employees! 
                       
                       

                    • 22002469

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 10:01 am

                      I’m sure the author was bummed Musk, Gates, Bezos etc don’t have an MD.  Could have really stretched the “average physician salary” with a few billionaires in the numerator. 
                       

                    • adrianoal

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 12:53 pm

                      Quote from Radsoxfan

                      I’m sure the author was bummed Musk, Gates, Bezos etc don’t have an MD.  Could have really stretched the “average physician salary” with a few billionaires in the numerator. 

                       
                      well, Gates’s daughter is apparently in med school and just bought a $51M house in NYC, so maybe they can work that into the next article 
                       
                      I remember when Gates said his kids wouldn’t be inheriting a significant amount of money and he was opposed to dynastic wealth.

                    • Patrick

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 1:05 pm

                      I think that is was one of the points of contention between Bill and Melinda…  Other than the shenanigans with other women.
                       
                      Based on the date range, I am sure quite a few of the highest earning physicians with capital gains income were those that sold their practices to PE.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 1:15 pm

                      If I had billions I would do life Bezos style, except my woman would be a 25 yo model.  But, he seems happy so who am I to judge? 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 11, 2023 at 2:17 pm

                      Quote from Waduh Dong

                      If I had billions I would do life Bezos style, except my woman would be a 25 yo model.  But, he seems happy so who am I to judge? 

                      Why not a harem? Work that Dong. Work it!

                    • buckeyeguy

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 2:33 pm

                      Quote from Waduh Dong

                      If I had billions I would do life Bezos style, except my woman would be a 25 yo model.  But, he seems happy so who am I to judge? 

                       
                      He’s still what he always was, let’s be honest.

                    • reza800p_368

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 4:27 pm

                      He was a lady’s guy most of his life.

                      Almost all successful men havebeen with several women in their lives. It is their risk-taking boundary-less personality that makes them both successful and womanizer.

                      This is beyond the understanding of risk-averse passive personality of physicians.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 5:38 pm

                       
                      Bezos is a ladies man?  Dude was married for 25 year and was an uber dork most of his life.  Weird crazy laugh also

                    • reza800p_368

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 5:43 pm

                      Do you think he went online to find chicks?

                      His life was very silent . I’m sure he had a team of “chick-finders” to provide him with endless number of ladies.

                      With all that money you don’t need to be good looking.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 6:03 pm

                       
                      Sounds nice.  As I said, if I were centi-billionaire status I would live similar to Bezos.   Massive yacht, mansions everywhere but I would not even entertain marriage and would enjoy younger chicks than his. 
                       
                      I wonder if he is into cars?  I like cars so would probably buy a F1 team and have a fleet of exotics. 
                       
                      I also like watches, so would have a collection to put Jay Z to shame. 
                       
                      Bezos is a weird dude but he is clearly doing life right……  
                       

                       
                       

                    • reza800p_368

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 6:12 pm

                      A lot of multimillionaires are married on paper but live a separate life. The wife is also happy with the endless amount of cash that comes her way.

                    • smfst7_929

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 6:15 pm

                      Have you all been around younger women? Especially uneducated or unintelligent ones? Doesnt matter how beautiful they are or how many squats theyve done to perfect their figure. I could never do it. Give me a woman I can have an intelligent conversation with any day of the week. Hedonistic pursuits get old. Intelligent conversation never does. Caveat is that I could never have an obese partner. Obese people largely have low self control that extends to other parts of their life.

                    • reza800p_368

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 6:20 pm

                      Ellon Musk has his intelligent conversations with Tesla engineers and space X team. Doesn’t need more intelligent conversations.

                      Now if your job is reporting a portable X-ray for 100000th time in your life, that’s a different story. You need some meaningful interaction after work.

                    • reza800p_368

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 6:22 pm

                      Agree that marrying a much younger wife is overrated.

                      But casual hook up and short term relationships are different.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 11, 2023 at 6:24 pm

                       
                      Intelligent conversation is overrated. Besides, we have AM.com for that lol. 

                    • pdbauer

                      Member
                      August 13, 2023 at 1:58 am

                      aunt minnie is such comedy lmao

                    • jeevonbenning_648

                      Member
                      August 13, 2023 at 7:27 am

                      That level of cope is cute. Plenty of attractive women in their 20s who are intelligent and fun to be around. A lot from EE and China/Taiwan who are well read, curious about the world, and raised right. Not every attractive woman in her 20s is a social media airhead. Lets be honest – you could definitely do it and you would enjoy it if the opportunity presented itself, and you were able to find and retain a woman like this.
                       
                      It reminds me of the other classic one – “well this guy is/I am with this unattractive girl because she MUST have a perfect 10/10 personality and thats what really matters” LOL. Attractive and fit women with pleasant above average personalities are around, and men in their 30s and 40s are with them, its just that the person doing the coping does not have the skill to attract one.
                       
                      I fully agree with you long term I prefer the more intelligent conversationalist. However, I say have both if you can.
                       

                    • buckeyeguy

                      Member
                      August 13, 2023 at 2:52 pm

                      The larger point is that many men in the west bring objective qualities, multiple in fact, and only a small % of women do, because you miss out on the most valuable due to the way the society is set up (careerism takes them out of the youthful years, which are the main attractors for men).
                       
                      The degree of chubbiness and obesity in the west, even at younger ages at this point, DQs a [b]huge [/b]percentage of women – dead on arrival for most guys who have any worth.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 13, 2023 at 7:09 pm

                      Sometimes I wonder why I even check these threads

                    • 4462

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 5:39 am

                      After a brief cease fire due to COVID , with physician labor power higher than ever, and now election season just ramping up, expect the war on doctors to continue.

                      Framing and narrative matter more than facts and reality. What the population thinks does matter more than ever in this era of populist politics.

                      With out of pocket deductibles higher than ever and real health insurance CPI likely 30% but buried by mathematical trickery ending this october, expect the hatchet men to come for us soon.
                      Or maybe the health insurance cos and CEO/admin will take the whack? Hah

                      Anyone expecting the AMA to help hasn’t been paying attention at all.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 5:44 am

                      Another article to stir the pot regarding physician incomes. Rural positions seem to pay more but threads in Gen’l Rad have discussed what’s the draw many times.
                       
                      [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/08/11/doctor-pay-geography/]https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/08/11/doctor-pay-geography/[/link]

                      The best-paid doctors in America work in the Dakotas, where they averaged $524,000 (South) and $468,000 (North) in 2017 in their prime earning years, including business income and capital gains. Thats well above the already astonishing $405,000 the average U.S. doctor made in the prime earning years, defined here as 40 to 55.
                       
                      Rural America has [link=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/out-here-its-just-me/2019/09/28/fa1df9b6-deef-11e9-be96-6adb81821e90_story.html?itid=lk_inline_manual_27]about 20 percent of the U.S. population but about 10 percent of its doctors[/link], according to our analysis of Census Bureau data. 
                       
                      Take the countrys[link=https://www.niskanencenter.org/federal-policy-misallocates-american-doctors/] lopsided system of medical residencies[/link]. Residencies tend to be in well-established urban areas, in part because federal residency funding was essentially frozen in 1997 and ignores a quarter-century of population growth. Also because elite medical colleges stubbornly insist on staying put in the Northeast, and because it takes a hefty population to produce enough patients to provide the variety of ailments needed to fuel a teaching hospital.
                       
                      The distribution of residencies helps determine the distribution of doctors, since [link=https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/data/table-c6-physician-retention-state-residency-training-state]most residents (54 percent) stay in-state for their careers[/link], according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. So the lack of rural residencies has accelerated the rural doctor shortage.

                      The government also influences physician pay directly through Medicare, perhaps the biggest spigot of health-care cash on Planet Earth. Typically, people in low-income areas cant spend as much and merchants tend to earn less. But thats not the case for health care, in large part because Medicare ensures that retirement-age Americans by far the biggest health-care consumers can afford about as much in South Dakota as they can in South Beach. Which means doctors work in one of the few industries where demand is not necessarily determined by disposable income.
                       

                      Consumers purchasing power depends on their incomes. But here we break that link by providing subsidies specifically for purchasing medical care, Gottlieb told us.
                       

                      But Medicare plays an even more explicit role in fostering this geographic pay-gap anomaly. A [link=https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-22-103876.pdf]stellar 2022 report[/link] from the nonpartisan Government Accountability Office lays out the astonishing design choices that have caused Medicare calculations for doctor pay to be remarkably flat from state to state.

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 6:59 am

                      Its pretty hard to tell from the bulk of the writing in that piece what the author is actually trying to say. However, already astonishing $405,000 is the money shot.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 14, 2023 at 7:25 am

                      Quote from sartoriusBIG

                      Have you all been around younger women? Especially uneducated or unintelligent ones? Doesnt matter how beautiful they are or how many squats theyve done to perfect their figure. I could never do it. Give me a woman I can have an intelligent conversation with any day of the week. Hedonistic pursuits get old. Intelligent conversation never does. Caveat is that I could never have an obese partner. Obese people largely have low self control that extends to other parts of their life.

                      Agree 100%. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 14, 2023 at 8:03 am

                      “So why is the geography of doctor pay so mind-blowingly inside-out?

                      We went to the phones. And, at first, most economists we called gave the same answer: competition.”

                       

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      August 14, 2023 at 8:23 am

                      when we had a generator the hourly rate for the mechanic to come to the house to service it was $190/hr, and that was almost 10 years ago
                       
                      most “average doctor” salaries posted online are in the 225-275 range. 
                       
                      WaPo could have chosen to publish an article on the astonishing wages of tradesmen who have a high school education and therefore can start work at age 18 instead of 30. But that didn’t fit the narrative they wanted to sell. 

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 9:03 am

                      For many reasons. Starting with few, if any declare bankruptcy over plumbing or mechanic bills but many declare bankruptcy over healthcare bills. You might not call that tradesman to do the work but most can’t afford – for their health “afford” –  to keep putting off healthcare. That tradesman’s bill might be high but often is not near as high as the bill for healthcare services, even being insured. 
                       
                      Tradesmen’s bills are not a national issue but healthcare costs are.

                    • smfst7_929

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 9:07 am

                      Typical frumi. Never let a chance to spew propaganda go to waste

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 10:19 am

                      I had plumber come out recently – $140 per hour. 

                    • erasmopa

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 10:59 am

                      In response to Frumi, I agree that not many people declare bankruptcy over a plumbing bill. But if all Americans were forced to purchase plumbing insurance and all plumbers were forced to accept said insurance, if lawyers sued for $50-100 million dollars in cases where a plumbing visit did not permanently solve the plumbing problem, and if there were behind the scenes figures who performed no plumbing services at all but found ways to skim tens of millions of money off of plumbing serviceswell then it might cause bankruptcy.

                      The problem in health care vis a vis the general public has nothing to do with physician salaries.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 1:19 pm

                      Quote from fumoney

                      In response to Frumi, I agree that not many people declare bankruptcy over a plumbing bill. But if all Americans were forced to purchase plumbing insurance and all plumbers were forced to accept said insurance, if lawyers sued for $50-100 million dollars in cases where a plumbing visit did not permanently solve the plumbing problem, and if there were behind the scenes figures who performed no plumbing services at all but found ways to skim tens of millions of money off of plumbing serviceswell then it might cause bankruptcy.

                      The problem in health care vis a vis the general public has nothing to do with physician salaries.

                      You and others are thinking about this in very narrow terms, especially those who believe it is mere Librul propaganda to point out that healthcare costs for a patient go way beyond 1 radiologist’s reading bill for a patient’s single exam, especially if they require extensive medical care and follow-ups and treatment.
                       
                      Most providers don’t understand healthcare costs to patients, how can we expect patients to understand better than we who work in the system?
                       
                      Healthcare costs in this country is what, 15%-20% of GDP last I recall? No, that cost is not caused by radiologists’ reading bills. 
                       
                       

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 1:27 pm

                       
                      There are just too many middlemen in health care now. 
                       
                      The only solution is eventual government health care plus a second their more expensive option for rich people.  Most of us posting here would be using the expensive one anyway.  
                       
                      As long as Rads are paid well it is OK with me.  Our skillset is vital to hospital function after all, unless we are disrupted by AI (low liklihood imo).  We are fairly indispensable and even the midlevels know not to mess with reading exams.  Others really don’t want to liability we take on as Rads.  What we do is only fairly low risk and relatively easy to us, other Rads. 

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 1:30 pm

                       
                      Not be braggadocios as trump would say, but after 15 years plus in PP, I feel a certain mastery over my work that makes it enjoyable.  So to me, I find it easy, but when I talk to other Docs and Noctors I understand that what we do it very important and not easy at all. It takes a lot of skill. 

                    • smfst7_929

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 4:00 pm

                      Govt run healthcare may not really decrease the costs. Medicare is actually trending private, as medicare advantage is now over 50%.

                      Anyway, sad that the dyed in the wool libs are more than happy to support the WaPo puff piece. They think about it narrow terms- as long as it fits the narrative, they can spew it.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 4:29 pm

                      Advantage is a profit-driven rip-off giving profits to insurance companies at taxpayer expense. It drives healthcare costs up while delivering less to the patients.
                       
                      Exactly what PE delivers.
                       
                      Not surprised that the Right loves it so, it’s inferior.

                    • afazio.uk_887

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 4:39 pm

                       
                      I’m not saying the government is the answer. I am saying I predict that is where it will end up.  Currently, the health care system is quite broken. 

                    • toumeray

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 6:20 pm

                      Why is it that liberal media seems to be so anti doctor? Am I wrong that this is almost a partisan issue? Republicans as a political party seem to be far more supportive of doctors than democrats. Malpractice is worst in blue states, taxes higher (which hits w2 earning doctors the most) in blue states, then you have liberal media hit pieces like this and others which try to inflate doctors pay, etc.

                      Obviously health care costs are sky high but it has no relevance to physician pay as we all know, we have all seen the graph. Why do libs (primarily) keep trying to inflate the two? Dont they want to actually reduce healthcare costs and if so, what good would taking physician pay from 8% of costs to 7% of costs really do for the cost of health care? Why target physician pay at all? It seems just stupid and ineffectual, aside from being completely unfair from my biased perspective

                    • farzadahmadimedrn710_43

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 6:29 pm

                      Medicare cuts hurt your bottom line more than whether the top marginal rate is 37% (Trump) or 39.6% (Obama). Republicans and Democrats both vote for those consistently to pay for their own pet projects be it more social welfare or more tax cuts for corporations.

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      August 14, 2023 at 6:30 pm

                      If docs were in a blue state the Trump tax cut made them pay more. 

                  • satyanar

                    Member
                    August 8, 2023 at 12:09 pm

                    Frumi you proved the point. Very few actually read those articles and analyze them critically. Its an inflammatory headline intended to make people like you angry at physicians because they make too much money. Thanks for doing the same analysis I did after reading the entire thing and a bunch of the comments.

                    Did you notice the reaction in the comments section? WAPO got what they wanted.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 12:26 pm

                      Thats where i fundamentally disagree. People think physicians are affluent, yes, but angry at physicians for their earnings? No. Those that are angry about physicians income are IMHO, the same types who get themselves angry about everything imagined. 
                       

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 12:35 pm

                      Glad you disagree. I disagree as well. I also agree with your last sentence. Awesome to see you dont count yourself among that group. You get a bum rap if true.

                      Now, if you dont believe it was the WAPO agenda to stir the pot and get people agitated about how physician salaries are a problem, I believe you should look again.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 12:52 pm

                      Quote from Thread

                      Now, if you dont believe it was the WAPO agenda to stir the pot and get people agitated about how physician salaries are a problem, I believe you should look again.

                      Is it illegitimate to ask that question about compensation? As for agitation for asking, thats your take, it is still a legitimate question comparing incomes in other developed countries vis-a-vis physician shortage in US vs other developed countries. Is the shortage somewhat manufactured by limiting openings? Supply & demand. The article & paper asks that too as well as some comments.
                       
                      The article & paper covers much more than implying/complaining physicians are over-compensated.
                       
                       

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 1:11 pm

                      Quote from Frumious

                      Quote from Thread

                      Now, if you dont believe it was the WAPO agenda to stir the pot and get people agitated about how physician salaries are a problem, I believe you should look again.

                      Is it illegitimate to ask that question about compensation? As for agitation for asking, thats your take, it is still a legitimate question comparing incomes in other developed countries vis-a-vis physician shortage in US vs other developed countries. Is the shortage somewhat manufactured by limiting openings? Supply & demand. The article & paper asks that too as well as some comments.

                      The article & paper covers much more than implying/complaining physicians are over-compensated.

                       
                      Sure, it’s my take. And sure, it’s a legit question. 
                       
                      Next one can create a headline and charts that paint or more even-handed picture. Yes, “some comments” are reasonable and analyze the whole article the way you and I did. Yes, the “whole article” says a lot of things. One would have no idea that’s what it says based on the headline and perusing the charts. That’s all most readers do. It’s pretty clear a bunch of physicians and lay commenters fell into the trap WAPO set. Unfortunately, not enough people can read critically.
                       
                       
                       
                       

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 1:28 pm

                      Trap. Agitation. Agenda.

                      Not exactly a dispassionate look at the issues raised.

                    • kayla.meyer_144

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 12:42 pm

                      What makes me angry is the CEO incomes for hospitals, insurance companies & most everything involved in the actual causes of the high cost of healthcare in this country that makes healthcare unaffordable for many, including those patients with insurance who incur high medical bills, some forced into bankruptcy.
                       
                      For that matter, since Bezos was mentioned, is there a rational reason for people like him to be given such high incomes? And so many CEOs since the 1980s? The $ that goes into their pockets come from someones pockets. All those corporations that could use that excess $ for better purposes.
                       

                    • satyanar

                      Member
                      August 8, 2023 at 12:49 pm

                      Thank you for that explanation. Me too.