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Average salary for night shift position?
Hey all,
Thinking about taking a night shift position with a private group in the midwest (currently covering nights for a 3 hospital system as in independent contractor).
They’re open to negotiation and seem very interested in me.
Whats a good salary for 8-9hr shift with around 100 studies a night – 60/40 XR/CT?
Full benefits, malpractice, 5k cme etc.
Thanks!
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79 Replies
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450 if 1 on 1 off
350 if 1 on 2 off
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That could be a good base. Productivity bonuses should be included as we all know how insane the volume gets. Sometimes, you are told to expect lower average numbers than reality.
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Quote from AngryBirds
450 if 1 on 1 off
350 if 1 on 2 off
These numbers reflect what prices they could pay to get someone 3 years ago. Also what they can keep someone who doesn’t feel like doing the work to find a new job. They do not reflect what it takes to bring someone on (especially in the middle of nowhere).
I think you can add at least 50 to both today.-
Numbers I posted was for 8 hour shifts.
If its 10-11 hours, I agree to adding 50
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Quote from AngryBirds
Numbers I posted was for 8 hour shifts.
If its 10-11 hours, I agree to adding 50
I was saying for 9 hour shifts, which is what seems to be the standard at most large hospital systems these days.
A lot of this boils down to math. What is your hourly? Does that include benefits? What is the value of those benefits, both on paper, and to you? Are they going to make a sizeable 401k contribution. etc etc
You must add all this stuff up , divide by the number of hours, and then come up with an hourly to see “if it is worth it”
1 on 1 off is not feasible – you will never really get a break. It’s just a trap to try and get you to take half the calls in the year.-
Do 1 on, 2 off jobs have vacation and meeting time in addition? Where I work, they do not.
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Quote from unclemax1
Do 1 on, 2 off jobs have vacation and meeting time in addition? Where I work, they do not.
The asinine corporate groups will consider every moment you’re not at work vacation. So if you’re on a 1 on/1 off schedule, you get 26 weeks of vacation!
Seriously though, even some 1 on/2 off jobs have additional vacation. Personally, I think you can get away without it if you’re 1 on/2 off, especially if you can swap weeks to get a longer break if needed, but it sure is nice to have an additional couple of weeks per year.-
Quote from W.N.
Quote from unclemax1
Do 1 on, 2 off jobs have vacation and meeting time in addition? Where I work, they do not.
The asinine corporate groups will consider every moment you’re not at work vacation. So if you’re on a 1 on/1 off schedule, you get 26 weeks of vacation!
Seriously though, even some 1 on/2 off jobs have additional vacation.
I’ve never seen that but that sounds AWESOME.
Personally, I think you can get away without it if you’re 1 on/2 off, especially if you can swap weeks to get a longer break if needed, but it sure is nice to have an additional couple of weeks per year.
IMO, 1 on 1 f would only be considered 26 weeks vacation to me if you don’t work weekends (obviously never the case).
I think the ACR is doing a real mis service to their constituents by allowing groups to post these nonsense jobs; it is clearly false advertising. Is a regular day job with 6 weeks off where you work week days and 1 weekend a month the equivalent of 22 weeks off. You only have 210 working days
104 weekend days – 24 weekend call days = 80 days off / 5 days per vacation week = 16 weeks
6 weeks vacation
Total = “22 weeks off”
110 days not working and 255 working days. OBVIOUSLY NOBODY would consider that 22 weeks off.
Those almost never *permanently* fill. The corporation behind the job has managed to get 1 sucker to take one job somewhere and it continues to think that it will find other suckers to take another similar job. Much like the crazy lady who thinks a pop star is in love with her because he looked at her one time at a concert or a drug addict who is chasing the dragon, these morons keep chasing the dragon and posting one on one off jobs that no one takes or people burn out of in 6-8 months.
DO NOT TAKE A 1 on 1 off job, esp one that is nights. Even if it is a Days job ~ you’re still working 26 weekends a year. Even 1 on 2 off nights becomes a drag with the weekends, but the weekday time off ends up being worth it for some. Honestly it would be a real struggle for me to go back to doing daytime M-F. I do 1 one 2 off nights now. While I still have to miss some events, my non ed-general skills and MR radiology skills have become a bit unpolished, and it becomes hard to see some people who are only free on weekends, it is the best for me in that it allowes me time to pursue my hobbies and interests I wouldn’t otherwise have if I had to go to work EVERY weekday.-
How does vrad and other nighthawk companies recruit for the 1 off/1 on model for low comp? Is the appeal that you dont have to be onsite?
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Basically.
A solid 1:2 Remote nighthawk job is hard to come by.
Some people are geographically restricted and would rather accept the paycut than relocate
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Isnt the market good enough now that you should be able to get a 1:2 job with the same pay as a daytime M-F job (ie, the premium for working nights cancels out the reduced number of days worked)?
Quote from AngryBirds
Basically.
A solid 1:2 Remote nighthawk job is hard to come by.
Some people are geographically restricted and would rather accept the paycut than relocate
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1on, 3 off, or bust
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Never seen a 1:3 split offered
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Again, KISS
Time >>> money -
1 on 2 off, in a 9hr a shift model is 1071 hours. Compare to a traditional similar day time shifts practice of 42 weeks on with 10 full weekends = that’s basically 2080hrs. So you are asking for a 2x premium to work nights — unreasonable in my opinion. The night time premium should probably be in the range of 1.2-1.5 the day time premium but it totally depends on night time volumes vs daytime volumes, home vs inhouse, etc. A night job which can be worked from anywhere at home is a different beast than having to be in house. In my practice, many partners would take over nights if the nights offered a 2x premium, so long as total # of weeks worked was 4-6 a year.
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The 1:3 jobs exist… Rare, but started appearing on market 2-3 years ago. Less than 1.0 FTE pay. So, none of these 1:3 jobs are really 2x premium. I think it is an attempt to create a sustainable schedule that foster’s retention, particularly in employed hospital/academic positions.
Make your job 1:2 minimum, and if you don’t offer partnership and a fair shake, we’ll hire em and you’ll be looking again.
Oh, and if night pay paid 2x day work, there wouldn’t be dedicated nocturnalists and residents wouldn’t take call alone. But, it doesn’t, so, here we are. -
The answer to OP’s question is… “Not enough”
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Ok. So….I am actually a 1 on 2 off kinda guy that pulls 10hr night shifts with high volumes and limited resident coverage. I dont speak money on public forums, but yall are low. Obviously daytime partners who dont do nights and likely never have. They dont call it the graveyard shift for nothing. There is inherent value that is difficult to quantify and it does not fit into a nice neat metric. Basically Im making enough to make me question why I did IR and am getting slowly out of the ED. That being said I am with a phenomenal group that understands the added stress of nights and has been very accommodating. I have morphed into a hybrid 1 on 2 off with every other week from home and internal moonlighting to boot so I work about 22 weeks a year. Yeah…thats weekends too. But I have more weekends off than not which wasnt the case in VIR. So its a trade. If its not north of some of what Ive seen discussed, Id say no.
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The basic premise that most people don’t seem to understand is that we operate in a market economy. Supply and demand are the main determinants of price and value, not how much revenue bring in, your perceived reputation, how many fellowships you’ve completed, etc etc.
We are in the rare moment when the supply of radiologists is outstripped by the demand for radiologists. I say rare, because since I became a trainee, the market has been in the dumps, with the exception of the past year or two.
Ask for more than you think you’re worth. The market is the main determinant. if some group “can’t find someone” I can tell you right now … THEY”RE NOT PAYING ENOUGH. The solution is simple: Pay more. Someone will come.
If you’re asking yourself, “Is it worth it?” the answer is no. Think of it as being on the other side of the equation of, “If you have to ask how much it costs, you can’t afford it.” If they’re nickel and diming you for your pay, they can’t afford you.
Let the day guys who HATE doing nights slog it out for a few months and then make you a real offer when they’re tired of being miserable. -
I did nights in my previous position anywhere from 7 on 21 off to 14 on 14 off and everything in between. In my opinion nights are not a long term solution unless you plan to live on a night schedule. Otherwise the sleep disruptions will catch up to you and you will be miserable. I wouldn’t do it unless there is a contractual path to partnership and there is a plan to transition you to days after a certain number of years if you want to make the switch. Otherwise you’ll be looking for a new job in a few years which will likely require relocation.
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Quote from olliemctuffy
I did nights in my previous position anywhere from 7 on 21 off to 14 on 14 off and everything in between. In my opinion nights are not a long term solution unless you plan to live on a night schedule. Otherwise the sleep disruptions will catch up to you and you will be miserable. I wouldn’t do it unless there is a contractual path to partnership and there is a plan to transition you to days after a certain number of years if you want to make the switch. Otherwise you’ll be looking for a new job in a few years which will likely require relocation.
I’m not a night person, but I’m pretty sure even I could sustain 7 on / 21 off! -
^ Still doesn’t mean it’s worth it.
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Right but it comes with a salary to match…
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No problem, buyer decide/beware, indeed.
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The risks of improper sleep quality are well documented. So is the increased risk for diabetes, heart disease, and certain cancers in night shift workers. Proper sleep affects nearly every organ system in the body and every hormonal axis. I wouldn’t take this job even or one or two million $. Why would you (knowingly) sacrifice your health for extra digits on a screen? Guaranteed chronic disease and poorer health.
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The guy working minimum wage at mcdonalds 9-5 has a better quality of life than the highly educated radiologist working night shifts.
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Yea. No he doesnt.
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450-500 for 1:1
325-365 for 1:2
That assumes no bonus salary for being a partner or productivity.
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The problem is that it takes its toll and gets exponentially worthless after you are middle aged / been doing it for 10 years.
There are too many jobs making similar money to bypass even 1:2 for those paltry sums. They should pay double, minimum. -
Looking at this scenario/change right now.
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Quote from RoleCall
450-500 for 1:1
325-365 for 1:2
That assumes no bonus salary for being a partner or productivity.
These numbers seem low to me unless referring to off-site tele. -
These numbers are definitely low, even for academic night jobs. Might be true for bottom of the barrel RP, Envision, LucidHealth/Riverside etc. jobs constantly cluttering the job boards. But people should know better than take these jobs unless they are desperate or enjoy making money for PE parasites with an RVU meter watching you at all times.
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Quote from Rad2013
Quote from RoleCall
450-500 for 1:1
325-365 for 1:2
That assumes no bonus salary for being a partner or productivity.
These numbers seem low to me unless referring to off-site tele.
These are low for a (pre-COVID) off site tele nights job with a hospital system. I know of several that are paying in the 400-450 for 1 on 2 off after year 2.
Why ANYONE would take a job with VRAD etc in this market (again pre COVID – don’t know what will happen post COVID) is beyond me. They literally pay 1/2 to 1/3 what hospital jobs do. -
Quote from knightrider
The basic premise that most people don’t seem to understand is that we operate in a market economy. Supply and demand are the main determinants of price and value, not how much revenue bring in, your perceived reputation, how many fellowships you’ve completed, etc etc.
We are in the rare moment when the supply of radiologists is outstripped by the demand for radiologists. I say rare, because since I became a trainee, the market has been in the dumps, with the exception of the past year or two.
Ask for more than you think you’re worth. The market is the main determinant. if some group “can’t find someone” I can tell you right now … THEY”RE NOT PAYING ENOUGH. The solution is simple: Pay more. Someone will come.If you’re asking yourself, “Is it worth it?” the answer is no. Think of it as being on the other side of the equation of, “If you have to ask how much it costs, you can’t afford it.” If they’re nickel and diming you for your pay, they can’t afford you.
Let the day guys who HATE doing nights slog it out for a few months and then make you a real offer when they’re tired of being miserable.
Damn straight, knightrider. Well put. -
it’s not just the number of hours but how hard the hours are. nights are paid a premium bc doing high volume at 3 am is much different than strolling in with coffee at 9 am.
like others above have mentioned 1) the transitions/sleep disturbances are rough and 2) there’s a physical effect on the body from working nights, it’s very unhealthy
our shop has had trouble filling the night gigs and paying out to day guys as moonlighting, as a poster above already mentioned, doesn’t work. day guys hate doing it and you lose more money paying the moonlighting rate anyways (for less coverage)
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Since most 1 on 2 off positions are employed positions, it may be more helpful to think about them in terms of hours per shift and hourly rate, slight differences in those numbers over the course of a year can dramatically affect overall compensation.
Assume 120 shifts per year at $350 per hour…
8 hour shifts = $336,000
10 hour shifts = $420,000
12 hour shifts = $504,000-
What dollar per rvu so you think? The o.p. numbers may be a little lower than average overnight volume
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1 on 1 off is not sustainable unless you will live on that schedule. Otherwise the sleep disruptions will ruin your life.
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For 1 on 1 off, would be nuts to take less than 600.
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Would be nuts to do 1 on 1 off for any amount of money!
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To OP: They’re interested in you because no one really wants to do 1 on 1 off any more for any pay and that’s a bargain in the range you’re thinking. Even though the hours and volume are reportedly reasonable, it will suck the life out of you in short time. Unless they’re promising you partnership and a fat paycheck in the mid 5-600+ range after that I’d suggest you find a 1 on 2 off if you really want to do nights. Good luck.
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Quote from skinny b
To OP: They’re interested in you because no one really wants to do 1 on 1 off any more for any pay and that’s a bargain in the range you’re thinking. Even though the hours and volume are reportedly reasonable, it will suck the life out of you in short time. Unless they’re promising you partnership and a fat paycheck in the mid 5-600+ range after that I’d suggest you find a 1 on 2 off if you really want to do nights. Good luck.
I second this. Remember with 1 on/1 off, you’re working [b]every other weekend[/b]!
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Received offer for a 1 on 2 off closer to the above quoted 1on1 off. Same hours and volume.
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Personally, I’d also try to find out if they are expecting you to read some of the daytime volume when you get caught up. Reading cancer followups and postop spines gets old very quickly at 4AM.
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Quote from W.N.
Personally, I’d also try to find out if they are expecting you to read some of the daytime volume when you get caught up. Reading cancer followups and postop spines gets old very quickly at 4AM.
Hopefully there’s an RVU or volume incentive atop base salary if that is the case.
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That’s pretty incredible for 1 on/2 off. I’m assuming that’s for onsite?
Quote from Rad42Rad
Received offer for a 1 on 2 off closer to the above quoted 1on1 off. Same hours and volume.
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1 on and 1 off is not sustainable regardless of the salary. Find out why the last guy left
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I have seen a recent offer for pay in the middle, 1 on 2 off, reading from home, volume is higher though up to double
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Someone I know coming out of training took a 1 on 2 off, in addition to staying on part time where he did fellowship. Feel sorry for him, a family man with kids, and should able to do better in this market.
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No less than 500k
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No overflow cleanup. Last guy retired after being there 15+ years. I was able to talk to him multiple times and he was happy. No complaints, and he isnt even a partner! Its 1on/1off with some additional vacation time built in (still negotiating that as well).
Im thinking 450 seems fair if they give me a decent amount of vacay no?
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Agree 1 on 1 off is temporary especially if kids between 5 and college. Miss too much.
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Quote from Sir Read Alot
No less than 500k
The real hero of this thread!
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I will echo that only 1 on 3 off is sustainable. Partnership should be offered because what is deserving of partnerships if not the maximum sustainable contribution? Face it, rads are pawning off work that they dont want to do.
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Yup, k space firing away again!
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Shifts from days to nights obviously takes a toll on the body, but what about staying on a night schedule long term? I am a young single male who is interested in these night time telerads gig. Still have to make it through residency but would working 2 weeks on, 1 off be sustainable if you are staying nocturnal? I am willing to work hard and enjoy having blocks of my life consistent of working and playing. Having 1 week off seems like having a vacation every 2 weeks (as opposed to being a 2 day weekend warrior ever week).
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I think it would still be tough unless you have a lot of nocturnal friends and family. Most people operate on a daytime schedule and to hang out with them would be tough. If youre totally a loaner and dont need people just be nocturnal.
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2 weeks on 1 week off is not a thing.
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Quote from AngryBirds
2 weeks on 1 week off is not a thing.
Someone here mentioned a year or two ago some new graduates were taking two night jobs that were each 1 week on 2 weeks off in order to make big money early on for a bit. Seems crazy, but I know people that do 1 on 1 off and still take extra shifts in their week off for extra pay. -
1 week on two weeks off is not bad. In fact, you may end up having a better social life than an 8-5 job with Q3 weekends.
It is not for everyone. But if you are more of an introverted, it is a good option.
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I did this for 6 years and tried to stay on a nocturnal schedule as much as possible on off weeks. This was made easier by the fact that my partner and I both worked the same job with the same schedule. We kept ourselves occupied at night by getting online degrees in computer science, lots of Netflix, and we also traveled internationally as much as possible with trips to, for example, Japan allowing us to essentially avoid jet leg altogether. Nonetheless, this schedule took its toll. We were in a fairly large city but there was little to do after midnight. Also, it was challenging to get anything done that was available during regular working hours (shopping, banking, home maintenance (ex: plumber), etc.).
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In terms of the schedule taking its toll on you guys, do you mean anything health wise or mainly the pragmatic reasons you listed? Thank you
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What about working the swing shift from home? Seems like if one wants to make more money they would be able to work more weeks at a time (perhaps 2 on, 1 off, as opposed to 1 on 2 off when working grave yard shift) given the more normalcy of hours. Is this recommended out of training? I hear many suggest against it. Perhaps doing an extra fellowship (1 body, 1 ER) would help one prepare to enter this type of practice and lifestyle?
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I do nights 7 on 14 off. Been doing for a few years now, first job out of training. I like it. It’s very predictable and structured. Going from days to nights isn’t too hard. Going from nights back to days feels bad, it’s like a hangover for a few days. My skill set is limited (no mammo, no procedures). I’m fast and proficient at what I do though. Main drawback for me is difficulty going to gym on my work weeks as my shifts are 12 hours. With shutdown lately I’ve been unable to go at all.
I find the pay pretty good and the workload usually easy. These days it’s extremely easy. The pay won’t be as good as daytime partnership jobs. PM for any more info. -
Quote from raddapp92
In terms of the schedule taking its toll on you guys, do you mean anything health wise or mainly the pragmatic reasons you listed? Thank you
I worked nights for many years. You have to make an effort to get your exercise in. I would either walk with weights or run in the morning or bike in the afternoon. You need to be entirely unavailble during your sleep hours. A room out of the way that you can black out, no cellphone etc. All I had was a weather radio that was locked down to warnings only and a single county code. I cant say that it ‘took a toll’, you have to make an effort to eat healthy and exercise, but with 1 on 2 off you have plenty of time to balance things out.
As a night-shift rad, you are not in the same boat as nursing, cops or factory workers. You have a predictable schedule and a good income. Its not like you need to run off to one of your other three jobs when you come off a ’24’ or you have some sadistic nurse manager who puts you on a 4-12 when you come off nights. -
Have these numbers gone up since 2020? Would 500 still be reasonable for 7 on 7 off 8hr shifts? Or are places paying above that? Also compared to in-person vs Tele, would this be a reasonable Tele rate?
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At this point you can get high 400s for 7 on 14 off. I don’t know who would want a 7 on 7 off job but if you did, I’d expect 650-700.
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Do you know places that are actually paying 650-700 for 182 8hr shifts Tele? I find that hard to believe
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Yes. That is only 3800/shift.
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That’s $475/hr. What’s the wRVU expectations for that hourly?
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We don’t have wRVU requirements, it is read whatever is scanned during that time period. There is a person on backup for if it gets too busy.
Note that we are a private group, we are not giving money to an owner or employer. -
NYC H&H (health and hospitals) is offering 520-540k plus 10% for retirement after the first year for a 7/14 night job with reasonable volume. Times have really changed!
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Whats the hours?
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I would bet that’s more than 8 hours a night.
Nights is usually $300-500 per hour in this market. In theory, you can earn around $1-1.5M per year as an upper limit. You reduce down from there depending on how much time off you want. -
Most 7/14s i’ve seen are 10 hours, most 7/7s i’ve seen are 8 hours
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That’s one of the biggest reasons why I prefer the 7on7off. I’d rather have 8hrs of reasonable volume in the comfort of my home than to do 10hrs of higher volume for 7 days straight. The 14 days off would be nice, but it would almost defeat the purpose for me if I’m dreading going back to working a 70hr work week.
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The hours for the above nyc night gig are 10ish but certainly not 12. And like I said, the volume is reasonable and not carpal tunnel inducing.
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I think the ideal for longer shifts is if only 3-4 of those hours are higher volume, and rest moderate or low volume. If it’s super busy at 4 am, or still catching up from earlier work, that’s not a healthy long term situation.
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