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Are more people starting to retire?
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Quote from Dergon in 2013
$10 million is a huge/very large nest egg, that most people who are coming out of fellowship today, without the benefit of a high earning spouse, will not be able to reach in 20 years without significant, constant market appreciation. I would say that bar is probably too high. Needing $300,000 a year to. Retire on is also probably not necessary for most people. Heck, I don’t live in anywhere near that right now. I think that kind of number upfront would basically say to a lot of us, this can’t be reasonably done.
I also disagree that having a professional money manager who keeps 1% of total assets is a good idea. The higher up you go in your nest egg, the more that 1% becomes. What is the greatest strategy? Very hard to know. But only have a money manager if he consistently can beat the long-term averages. Otherwise, maybe take one half of that money and. Have it professionally managed. Take the other one half and put it in ETFs was something that has a .1 or .2% cost.
Agree with both of these points. If you need $10mil to retire you have a *much* higher level of lifestyle than mine.
I started my careeer with a financial advisor. It was a good way to impose regular discipline and to keep myself from making mistakes or panicking with my money when I had limited financial literacy.
But over the years I have studied, simplified and become a Boglehead. I save 50% of every paycheck (we live cheap), dollar cost average every month into low cost mutual funds, I don’t move stuff around beyond periodic rebalancing.
Remember the old addage: “It’s not about timin’ the market. It’s about time in the market.”
Barring a big bear market I shoud be on track for part time at 50, and 20-30% only at 60. (Yes, it will be with significantly less than $10mil, but I can accept that. 🙂 )
I did some retirement math last week and noticed that I had crossed a threshold of … of sorts.
With the stock market at its level as of last week’s close I am currently on track to making my age 50 retirement portfolio goal even if the market is flat from here on. I have 30 or so months left to age 50 and, given my current savings rate, just the addition of that new principal will put me past my (totally arbitrary) goal at which I bargained with my self that I would allow myself to go part time.
So as long as the S&P 500 closes in early 2017 right around where it is now I’ll be looking at going 75-80% 🙂
(( that is, providing I get mrs_dergon’s buy-in to that plan 😉 ))
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Glad to hear you can semi-retire at 50 Dergon. Of course, you should mention the fact that you don’t have any kids – good way to save a lot of money. Most of us just can’t afford to retire at 50. But life is all about trade-offs.
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Quote from jjrads1
Glad to hear you can semi-retire at 50 Dergon. Of course, you should mention the fact that you don’t have any kids – good way to save a lot of money. Most of us just can’t afford to retire at 50. But life is all about trade-offs.
Oh that is absolutely true. I hope I haven’t made any misrepresentations. I’ve been pretty open on this forum as to letting folks know that savings advantage my “no kids” status provides.
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The rush to retire is more a consequence of a job that is simply too stressful and difficult to conceive of continuing long term. The better choice is to go part-time or slow down and work for more years. It will keep your mind engaged, some income flowing and actually you will have time to enjoy radiology again.
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Quote from macrophallus
The rush to retire is more a consequence of a job that is simply too stressful and difficult to conceive of continuing long term. The better choice is to go part-time or slow down and work for more years. It will keep your mind engaged, some income flowing and actually you will have time to enjoy radiology again.
In our hospital pretty much doctors [b]live to work[/b].-
in rads from my experience the dinosaurs will just change to dust in their chair with the Dictaphone on top..they will not retire
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If you don’t have kids, you could definitely retire my age 50, IMHO.
My goal is still slowing down at 50, phasing out by 55. We shall see. -
Quote from Noah’sArk
in rads from my experience the dinosaurs will just change to dust in their chair with the Dictaphone on top..they will not retire
I’m not only talking about radiology. I am talking about all physicians. When a 40 year old …. doctor works 70 hours a week and commutes 1.5 hours a day because he feels obliged to make a certain amount of money to live “like a physician”. IMO, if we take it easy, we can make a good living without killing ourselves to pay high mortgages or pay for expensive vacations. Things may change in the near future.-
I think the issue is — and dergon and mistrad may experience this — when you hit an age where you can retire, say 50 or 55, whatever, a lot of rads look around and realize “My mortgage is paid, college tuitions are paid, etc. If I just sock away a few years of income, my retirement won’t just be good, it’ll be amazing!” And the perennial lure of that equation, often combined with the turn-a-blind-eye attitude toward the productivity of older partners, leads to the Dictaphone-in-dust situation.
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zz, no doubt, there is no end to the excuses people create to continue to make (easy) money
The saddest thing in this country is how many people die with boatloads of cash, never having given it to others — just to the gov’t through taxes or their spoiled ass kids who don’t need it
Sheesh, these same greedy “greatest generationers” won’t even give me … the chance to make my cash
Triple take away scenario-
the saddest thing in any country is how people die with 0 cash–as in starve to death! now the guys with boat loads of cash should donate some to the poor.
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Quote from Noah’sArk
in rads from my experience the dinosaurs will just change to dust in their chair with the Dictaphone on top..they will not retire
Ironic, as “sitting is the new smoking.” By insisting on not retiring, they may be shortening their lives.
[link=http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/doctors-now-warning-sitting-new-3393908]http://www.mirror.co.uk/l…ng-sitting-new-3393908[/link]
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Quote from Cigar
The saddest thing in this country is how many people die with boatloads of cash
One of the events that really knocked me towards a plan of “I will [b]not[/b] work too long!” was the death of a surgeon I know.
He was nationally renowned. He had a huge house in the nicest part of town. He had a wine cellar valued somewhere close to 7 figures. He worked a long day regularly for close to 40 years.
I was in the office on a Wednesday evening doing a biopsy that ran late. He was finishing he average day and I bumped into him at 6:30 in the hallway. We exchanged pleasantries. He walked out of the door and died quietly in his sleep at home that night.
He was 72.
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That will not be me.
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[link=http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/practice-management/retirement-isnt-sissies]http://www.diagnosticimag…etirement-isnt-sissies[/link]
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Quote from mimiefrance
[link=http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/practice-management/retirement-isnt-sissies]http://www.diagnosticimag…etirement-isnt-sissies[/link]
I recently spoke with a physician who is about to retire and was surprised to hear him say, Well, since I am retiring soon, I guess I need to find a hobby.
I feel sad for that guy. A near whole life lived and [i]all[/i] he has to keep him occupied is his career? That’s awful.-
some of it is generational, when I lived in DC I knew a dinosaur who was a psychiatrist(baby boomer) and with that specialty u can hang on for a while….see patients out of your house..well one day I saw him crawl in with a limp and he was like IT IS AN HONOR TO SEE PATIENTS ./ I will never retire
met a couple of triple digit looking rad dinosaurs when the locums market was rolling(the golden days of radiology) and they would crawl in there to read films with limps and backs bent in various direction
Now generation X and Y and the millin..are like please that is not desirable to me….like work and then die…No we are not doing that-
It all comes down to some very basic elements.
Do you like [/i]what you do, AND are you good [/i]at it? If so, by all means keep doing it, and don’t listen to the whiny entitled little children floating around here who want you out so they can have what you built.
Now, if you are no longer good at what you are doing, you need to bail yesterday. Patients lives are at stake, you know. Now this does NOT imply that someone who can’t read the very most advanced studies but is really good at many other things should be put out to pasture. Some of us have become burned out to the point of no longer being able to function effectively. It happens to the best of us.
Finally, if you no longer like what you are doing, but are still doing it AND doing it well, you must realize that you are now in it for the money and nothing else. That is not where most of us altruistic little med students and residents thought we would be toward the end of our careers, but it happens anyway. At this point, you must reassess your finances and decide how long you wish to be miserable relative to how long you can live on what you have at some particular level of expenditure.
Is it worth beating yourself up (if that is how you see your job) to keep the spouse in designer clothes, Jaguars, and McMansions? Only you can decide.
One of my partners lost his physician-father at a very young age. His dad’s greatest regret was not having spent adequate time being a father, rather than becoming a famous doc.
No one ever says on their death-bed, “I wish I had worked harder and spent less time with the family.”-
It is hard for me to believe at 5 years after my first PP job out of fellowship, I already started thinking about my exit strategy. While going through such motion, I walked down the same algorithm that Dr. Dalai eloquently described here. Of course, I cannot agree more with everything he mentioned here, including the final quote. This is scary…
Well, almost everything. I am not Jaguar guy.
Very good post, Dr. Dalai.
Quote from DoctorDalai
It all comes down to some very basic elements.
Do you like what you do, AND are you good at it? If so, by all means keep doing it, and don’t listen to the whiny entitled little children floating around here who want you out so they can have what you built.Now, if you are no longer good at what you are doing, you need to bail yesterday. Patients lives are at stake, you know. Now this does NOT imply that someone who can’t read the very most advanced studies but is really good at many other things should be put out to pasture. Some of us have become burned out to the point of no longer being able to function effectively. It happens to the best of us.
Finally, if you no longer like what you are doing, but are still doing it AND doing it well, you must realize that you are now in it for the money and nothing else. That is not where most of us altruistic little med students and residents thought we would be toward the end of our careers, but it happens anyway. At this point, you must reassess your finances and decide how long you wish to be miserable relative to how long you can live on what you have at some particular level of expenditure.
Is it worth beating yourself up (if that is how you see your job) to keep the spouse in designer clothes, Jaguars, and McMansions? Only you can decide.
One of my partners lost his physician-father at a very young age. His dad’s greatest regret was not having spent adequate time being a father, rather than becoming a famous doc.
No one ever says on their death-bed, “I wish I had worked harder and spent less time with the family.”
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Quote from DoctorDalai
Now, if you are no longer good at what you are doing, you need to bail yesterday. Patients lives are at stake, you know. Now this does NOT imply that someone who can’t read the very most advanced studies but is really good at many other things should be put out to pasture. Some of us have become burned out to the point of no longer being able to function effectively. It happens to the best of us.
Finally, if you no longer like what you are doing, but are still doing it AND doing it well, you must realize that you are now in it for the money and nothing else. That is not where most of us altruistic little med students and residents thought we would be toward the end of our careers, but it happens anyway. At this point, you must reassess your finances and decide how long you wish to be miserable relative to how long you can live on what you have at some particular level of expenditure.
The bugaboo about being ‘burnt out’ and/or liking rads is whether volume, call, and hours are the ‘old normal’ or the ‘new normal’.-
I think if you can avoid big money losing mistakes like:
1. Divorce
2. High maintenance spouse
3. Car habit, like changing expensive cars every few years
4. Exotic investments and tax saving schemes etc.
5. Too much house for what you need
A rad in private practice would be guaranteed a high level of financial security after 10 years of PP work. Meaning one could conceivably go part time and enjoy the rest of your career if you wanted to. Part time radiology is still a nice spot I think. You can take a more relaxed approach and enjoy the medicine/science part of radiology again.-
Live below your means.
Save like crazy.
But don’t forget, you may not live to 65, so have some fun.
Be charitable. You won’t give a shit about the expensive cars you drove or the big house you lived in when you are on your death bed.-
I just realized that I made a mild miscalculation in my post above. I forgot that in my rebalancing and getting rid of some old high expense ratio funds that I had incurred a large capital gain expense this year. Gonna have to write a big check to the IRS for 2014.
But on the plus side, I have now jettisoned the last vestiges of my prior life letting an adviser do it all for me. I’m in nearly full Boglehead mode now 🙂-
Damn! Market dropped a couple of percent this week.
Better go apologize to my boss and beg for my job back 😉
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interesting
honest work has intrinsic value, outside of material considerations
having stuff and doing stuff may or may not bring (transient) pleasure, and may not be of value
holding someone in contempt for preferring work over (potentially) useless hobbies seems misplaced-
Quote from spongiform
interesting
honest work has intrinsic value, outside of material considerations
having stuff and doing stuff may or may not bring (transient) pleasure, and may not be of value
holding someone in contempt for preferring work over (potentially) useless hobbies seems misplaced
It is not contempt for the work ethic.
It is an view that , imho, many physicians lack the insight and life creativity to do anything but work. They do it out of habit, conformity, and to a large extent materialism.
Many come to the enlightenment about what things really matter too late in life or, sadly, never at all.
I feel sad for those people.-
Quote from dergon
It is not contempt for the work ethic.
It is an view that , imho, many physicians lack the insight and life creativity to do anything but work. They do it out of habit, conformity, and to a large extent materialism.
Many come to the enlightenment about what things really matter too late in life or, sadly, never at all.
I feel sad for those people.
+1
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Quote from dergon
Quote from spongiform
interesting
honest work has intrinsic value, outside of material considerations
having stuff and doing stuff may or may not bring (transient) pleasure, and may not be of value
holding someone in contempt for preferring work over (potentially) useless hobbies seems misplacedIt is not contempt for the work ethic.
It is an view that , imho, many physicians lack the insight and life creativity to do anything but work. They do it out of habit, conformity, and to a large extent materialism.
Many come to the enlightenment about what things really matter too late in life or, sadly, never at all.
I feel sad for those people.
It isn’t just physicians, by any means, either.
My dad was an engineer, retired at age 60. His siblings and cousins thought he was crazy…even those that were physicians and earned much more money. Some of them are still working; a few have actually passed away. My dad has been loving life, and retired for 15 years.
You simply decide what is important in life…and do it.
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Quote from spongiform
interesting
honest work has intrinsic value, outside of material considerations
having stuff and doing stuff may or may not bring (transient) pleasure, and may not be of value
holding someone in contempt for preferring work over (potentially) useless hobbies seems misplacedI don’t know if the word contempt is quite the right adjective.
it is not really material considerations that drive me. It is the desire to have a large number of different life experiences. Those people who have only medicine as their life, in my estimation have missed 90% of life.
I met a physician when I was in my 30’s who, I think was trying to say: “don’t do what I did”. He had a successful professional life, worked quite a bit, etc. He told me his daughter was 17 and was leaving home the next year and he had no relationship with her. He had, in every sense, never been there. Patient’s loved him (he was a cardiologist). His daughter had no use for him.
In a very real sense, the only thing you really own is your time, and if you don’t give that to your family, well, you have cheated both them and you.
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Does the VA hire straight out of fellowship?
Fee basis has given doctors a great living, until it made them worker bees for the large gov’t / corporation entities that flooded in and worked in cahoots. Now it’s only going to get worse until Docs organize. The writing is on the wall. Why else are so many docs getting MBAs? The situation in radiology is exemplary of a systems failure.
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Quote from Dergon in May 2014
I did some retirement math last week and noticed that I had crossed a threshold of … of sorts.
With the stock market at its level as of last week’s close I am currently on track to making my age 50 retirement portfolio goal even if the market is flat from here on. I have 30 or so months left to age 50 and, given my current savings rate, just the addition of that new principal will put me past my (totally arbitrary) goal at which I bargained with my self that I would allow myself to go part time.
So as long as the S&P 500 closes in early 2017 right around where it is now I’ll be looking at going 75-80% 🙂
13 months to age to 50 … back to on-target/ slightly below target.
Glad I didn’t quit in 2014 🙂
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Whether or not pp exposure to subspecialty work balances out or even beats the expertise of a fellowship is entirely dependent on a variety of factors.
Is the rad part of a formal subspecialist section with meetings, academic pursuits, and heavy volumes?
Does the rad read complex cases, subject to high expectation similar to that for his or her fellowship trained partners? And is the complexity of cases a reasonable approximation of what might be encountered in academic settings (i.e. Post-op MSK tumor work, etc)
Does the rad subscribe to and keep up with the subspecialty literature and focus Cme on advanced subspecialty topics?
Is the rad held to the same standards for expertise and reporting as fellowship trained rads in that subspecialty?
Does the rad take a leadership position on protocols and practice in the area?
Does the rad specifically collaborate with subspecialists referrers in their conferences?These conditions can exist, particularly in larger groups, and it is silly to suggest that 1 year in such an environment as a fellow trumps 10 years as a practitioner. on the other hand, if the private practice does not offer these things, the fellow’s exposure to complex academic cases may yield a significant advantage over the “casual” subspecialty reader. That fellow’s continued skills 10 years later will depend on how much he or she participates in the activities noted above on an ongoing basis.
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Even with the most focused of subspecialty practices, no one knows everything and no one gets everything right. There is always room to improve, no matter how long you’ve been in practice. No matter how devoted you are to the study of radiology, you can not improve your practice of multiple specialties as well/as quickly as you can improve your practice of one. On average, those who practice one specialty will be better at it than those that practice that specialty on top of others.
There will always be individual radiologists who excel in multiple areas and whose interpretations are superior to fellowship trained radiologists in their own specialty. But those same outstanding “generalists” will not be as good at any single specialty of radiology as they could have been if they had devoted themselves only to the study/practice of that specialty.-
Quote from nobodyspecial
But those same outstanding “generalists” will not be as good at any single specialty of radiology as they could have been if they had devoted themselves only to the study/practice of that specialty.
Maybe not if boredom comes into play. Some feel comfortable doing one thing all the time. Others feel more engaged if they do many things. Everybody’s different.
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Quote from dergon
Quote from Dergon in May 2014
I did some retirement math last week and noticed that I had crossed a threshold of … of sorts.
With the stock market at its level as of last week’s close I am currently on track to making my age 50 retirement portfolio goal even if the market is flat from here on. I have 30 or so months left to age 50 and, given my current savings rate, just the addition of that new principal will put me past my (totally arbitrary) goal at which I bargained with my self that I would allow myself to go part time.
So as long as the S&P 500 closes in early 2017 right around where it is now I’ll be looking at going 75-80% 🙂13 months to age to 50 … back to on-target/ slightly below target.
Glad I didn’t quit in 2014 🙂
Well, I have only a few weeks to go until age 50 hits. I have a long standing retirement number that, when I set it, meant that I could part-time if I made it by age 50.
So I’ve been looking around this week readying for my annual portfolio rebalancing and …
I have hit the age 50 number. (Surpassed it by 12% actually). Adding Mrs_dergon’s savings (32 year old Dergon didn’t run a simulation for getting married .. he was going to be single forever 😉 ) we’re 27% over the number.
So if I wanted to I could dial it back.
But things are pretty good and Mrs_dergon is 11 years my younger and is just swinging into the peak of her career. She’s not ready to run off and travel the world for big chunks of time.
So I think I am going to keep it up full time for at least another 4 years and re-evaluate. Hopefully I’ve got enough cushion to stay on track through whatever market downturns may come.
Bottom line: Could partly retire. Choose not to.-
I recommend adding 3-6 wks off. You won’t regret it!
You don’t need to travel all the time; you’ll find a way to occupy yourself.-
Have reached and reset before too, as Dergon relates.
Wonder if ‘the number’ becomes a moving target, and once reached, a new horizon beckons.
But, I wonder too, the portfolio number can grow, but the remaining limited number of heartbeats cannot.
Tough call.-
Depressing. I’m about 30 percent behind my two friend portfolios at my age. Getting f’ed by your first employer can have huge consequences.
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It’s ok, wisdom. I’m sure you’re still well above the vast majority. If it makes you feel any better I know a 2 rad couple who likes to keep up with their high society friends and the most expensive schools for their kids and are now nearing retirement age with little savings.
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Quote from dergon
Quote from dergon
Quote from Dergon in May 2014
I did some retirement math last week and noticed that I had crossed a threshold of … of sorts.
With the stock market at its level as of last week’s close I am currently on track to making my age 50 retirement portfolio goal even if the market is flat from here on. I have 30 or so months left to age 50 and, given my current savings rate, just the addition of that new principal will put me past my (totally arbitrary) goal at which I bargained with my self that I would allow myself to go part time.
So as long as the S&P 500 closes in early 2017 right around where it is now I’ll be looking at going 75-80% 🙂
13 months to age to 50 … back to on-target/ slightly below target.
Glad I didn’t quit in 2014 🙂
Well, I have only a few weeks to go until age 50 hits. I have a long standing retirement number that, when I set it, meant that I could part-time if I made it by age 50.
So I’ve been looking around this week readying for my annual portfolio rebalancing and …
I have hit the age 50 number. (Surpassed it by 12% actually). Adding Mrs_dergon’s savings (32 year old Dergon didn’t run a simulation for getting married .. he was going to be single forever 😉 ) we’re 27% over the number.
So if I wanted to I could dial it back.
But things are pretty good and Mrs_dergon is 11 years my younger and is just swinging into the peak of her career. She’s not ready to run off and travel the world for big chunks of time.
So I think I am going to keep it up full time for at least another 4 years and re-evaluate. Hopefully I’ve got enough cushion to stay on track through whatever market downturns may come.
Bottom line: Could partly retire. Choose not to.
Thats great…no kids, right? If you don’t mind me asking, was that a conscious decision or just sorta how things played out?-
I can’t think of a single retiree who says that they regret retiring (with the exception of those few who didn’t save enough).
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Quote from jd4540
Thats great…no kids, right? If you don’t mind me asking, was that a conscious decision or just sorta how things played out?
No kids. I got married late after age 40 and my wife and I just decided not to have children.-
Smart move. Kudos to you and mrs dergon. And don’t listen to those who tell you it’s not too late, you’ll never know what real love is, you can always adopt, etc.
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Quote from Noah’sArk
l one day I saw him crawl in with a limp and he was like IT IS AN HONOR TO SEE PATIENTS ./ I will never retire
Yes, I think all or most of us have seen a number of rads and other physicians with this mindset. I think this is largely admirable. The part about this that’s sad to me, is these same great, dedicated physicians are now being told how to practice by businessmen who have very little real interest in the individual patient, only the patient’s money. These “old school” physicians are sadly being easily manhandled and controlled. And they probably don’t know any better, or if they do, can’t really do anything about it. To me, it’s almost like elder abuse.
In short order, we’ve sadly given up the sacred doctor-patient relationship for the corporate-customer mentality. Suddenly, with “value” and “imaging 3.0”, it’s all about the customer. I guess we’ve all sold out.
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Inch by inch in the Dergon household.
Mrs_dergon recently quit her old job and had two offers. Job #1 – a high end mangerial position in the PR department of a large local company. High pay, more hours, in the office rain or shine, less time off. Job #2 – A writing position as an independent contracter with a start up. Slightly less pay, complete flexibility on telecommuting, as much time off as me.
She took job #2.
Now I feel like we’re [i]both[/i] on a trajectory to truly start backing it down a bit in the next few years.
I pledge to do my part for you incoming rads to open up some opportunities for you 🙂 -
Yes…it’s true in my practice! We are actually looking for neuro or MSK people for a position in Southern CA. Email CV to [email protected] if interested.
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Nearly 20 years of plugging away at it as hard as I can…
S&P 500: [b]2063.38[/b]
And with today’s close I have officially made my age 50 retirement funds target goal. And it is still 3 months until my 48th birthday. 🙂
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Congratulations. Are you going to retire now or wait until the market drops again? 😉
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Jealous. I don’t have the stones to be all in during these Fed bubbles.
Isn’t there a Bogleism that says to essentially quit playing when you’ve ‘won’?
[image]http://media.giphy.com/media/TQh3nVXVx9Xlm/giphy.gif[/image]-
Well, the plan wasn’t to retire at age 50.
I just simply hit my target for age 50. The train is just making its scheduled stops on time but hasn’t reached the final destination.
It just means that I am on course …not that I’ve already “won”. But it does feel good to be a bit ahead of schedule. 🙂Also, I did start rebalancing toward a very small amount of fixed return investments just this year end. I tend to be aggressive in my asset allocation but have started inching my way into an old man’s portfolio.
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Quote from DoctorDalai
Congratulations. Are you going to retire now or wait until the market drops again? 😉
+1000-
Quote from Cigar
Quote from DoctorDalai
Congratulations. Are you going to retire now or wait until the market drops again? 😉
+1000
I keep waiting for the correction just like everybody else. 🙂
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Quote from IGotKids2Feed
Quote from Weekendwarrior
All this paints a depressing picture for the life of the older radiologist. Tell me it has to get better before I slump over at my dictaphone, dead.
Take heart, warrior. It can already be better than that. Observe those you don’t want to end up like, and learn from them. Choose your mate carefully. Someone that would rather actually be with you, rather than off making money for her (or him). Someone that will raise your kids to have common sense and independent, lest you end up with adult children that can’t take care of themselves. Preferably someone that doesn’t have a great desire “to be seen” and do the expensive social scene. Be skeptical of investment proposals from fellow radiologists. More often than not, you will lose money if you go along with these. Save as much as you can for retirement from day one. The more time, the better. Maybe even ask the elderly rads you know now that financially are forced to work, ask them what they would have done differently. At least these are the things I try to do. I really do not want to work past 60, preferably retire at 58 if I can. One can never predict what will happen, all the best laid plans can go awry. But at least I’m trying and enjoying myself along the way.
Read back through this thread. Thought this post deserved a bump.
We had 2 more rads retire this year. One in his 70s (who had only been doing a week/month for the last 5 years) and one around 65.-
According to the latest workforce surveys, more have retired in 2013 compared to 2006. However the difference between the two time points is that the increase in the number of working radiologists in the 30 to 35 age range (basically graduating residents and fellows) is much greater compared to retirees in 2013 than in 2006.
So in summary retirements have increased but it’s been negated by the large increase in graduating residents and fellows.-
Yes some more radiologists may retire, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the glut of unemployed or underemployed that are out there. Moreover, quite a number of radiologists have come out of retirement and now still work part or full time their old group or organization further saturating the job market.
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[i]”According to the latest workforce surveys, more have retired in 2013 compared to 2006. However the difference between the two time points is that the increase in the number of working radiologists in the 30 to 35 age range (basically graduating residents and fellows) is much greater compared to retirees in 2013 than in 2006. [/i]
[i]So in summary retirements have increased but it’s been negated by the large increase in graduating residents and fellows.”[/i]
One thing about the “workforce” surveys – I think it’s a misnomer. I believe it is actually a survey of HEADS OF PRACTICES, about 1/5th of which reply, and their hiring plans, so in reality its actually more of an EMPLOYER rather than WORKFORCE survey. While we all have our biases, employers/hiring practices/hospital corporations do prefer an oversupply of talent to the opposite…just sayin..
I’d think given new available technology, surveymonkey, etc., the ACR could do a survey sent out to all of its members’ emails, which might give us more insight into the state of the actual workforce (i.e., rather the state of the workforce as the employers perceive it), maybe modeled after unemployment or other similar surveys. I suspect the results would differ significantly.
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Patience, dergs. This is good anyway when your div. are reinvested, right?
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At my residency program, we have several attendings who are retiring within the next 1-2 years. They have been interviewing candidates for positions in multiple different sections. There has been some turnover in terms of new radiologists coming here over the past couple years and a couple radiologists are taking jobs elsewhere. It’s a shame to lose good guys like we are, but I think it’s a good sign that jobs are opening up, people are moving around, and the older docs are definitely starting to retire.
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Quote from IGotKids2Feed
Patience, dergs. This is good anyway when your div. are reinvested, right?
Yep. For people with a long term horizon a market drop is just a chance to buy low.
Coming into my 48th birthday this weekend. (A bit of skiing, a steak au poivre and some escargot 🙂 )
On target for part time at age 50 🙂 …. doing my part to open up the job market a bit for you young rads/-
Yeah stock market is at all time highs… retirements will increase no doubt. Just will take a little sustained time with high stock market to make it happen. This is the “wealth effect” that Bernake and co was after.
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dergs,
Do you find that doing taxes on your own is too difficult? Or do you have someone else do it because you have to get “creative”? The whole tax code thing is so stupid. I can’t get why when most people are for super simple the pols can’t get that done.-
Quote from Cigar
dergs,
Do you find that doing taxes on your own is too difficult? Or do you have someone else do it because you have to get “creative”? The whole tax code thing is so stupid. I can’t get why when most people are for super simple the pols can’t get that done.
Probably you know this, but
The reason is so that they can essentially sell tax breaks to the highest contributors. Simplicity is the enemy of political favor granting. -
Quote from Cigar
dergs,
Do you find that doing taxes on your own is too difficult? Or do you have someone else do it because you have to get “creative”? The whole tax code thing is so stupid. I can’t get why when most people are for super simple the pols can’t get that done.
I have a tax guy but he is by the books.
Too many doctors try to beat the system with crazy tax avoidance schemes. It makes us a target for scammers.
I just try to keep my investments such that I’m not paying more tax than I have to and pay the income tax to uncle sam. Yes, it stings but there’s really no way around it.
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There is but you have to make orders of magnitude more than we do
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Quote from dergon (a year ago)
Nearly 20 years of plugging away at it as hard as I can…
And with today’s close I have officially made my age 50 retirement funds target goal. And it is still 3 months until my 48th birthday. 🙂
Quote from DoctorDalai
Congratulations. Are you going to retire now or wait until the market drops again? 😉
Quote from dergon
I keep waiting for the correction just like everybody else. 🙂
And the correction is here. I consider myself a pretty rational investor and don’t act on impulse when the market drops. And I have, in fact, been keeping up with my monthly dollar cost averaging into the market through out these last couple rough quarters.
But despite all that, I can’t help but “feel poor” in the back of mind. I know nothing has fundamentally changed, but for some reason I feel this gnaw when the market is down.
With the current dip I am now back on target for my age 50 projection. So much for being a few years ahead, eh.-
Dergon, track your annual payout in dividends. That more or less will go up every year. Psychologically it’s a good number to ‘hold on to’ when volatility rears its ugly head.
I’m still DCA here as well. Steady as she goes.-
I’m not convinced that this was ‘the’ correction. Hints at rumors at possible maybe nominal rate hikes and slight slowing of QE loosened sphincter control at CNBC and company enough to put a dent in my accounts.
A question for the brain trust: annuities. Unloved by bogleheads, but do they serve a purpose for MDs (assuming tax deferred retirement accounts are maxxed) as a vehicle for asset protection and diversification? Or is the smart money still VTSAX and a dash of bonds and almost no cash?-
It is easy to make money off the residents, fellows and alternative pathway people and reach your astronomical financial goals at the age of 50 while screwing the entire field of radiology by creating a glut. Then you hire the newbies who are begging for a job as the ER radiologist to cover the nights and still justify your take over of small practices under the name of subspecialty reads.
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…in your boat.
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Quote from Adahn
A question for the brain trust: annuities. Unloved by bogleheads, but do they serve a purpose for MDs (assuming tax deferred retirement accounts are maxxed) as a vehicle for asset protection and diversification? Or is the smart money still VTSAX and a dash of bonds and almost no cash?
I consider myself a Boglehead so it won’t surprise you that I don’t like annuities much.
First and foremost: Fees. Many are very expensive vehicles that are quite costly.
Then there’s taxes: The theory that annuities sales folks like to put forward is that it annuities are tax deferred and therefore a good tax move. But, the withdrawals of an immediate or deferred annuity are taxed as ordinary income which can be a lot higher than if you were generating your needed income from the sale of of stocks which would have been taxed at the much lower long term capital gains rate.
Then there’s inflation risk: A set payment might look good, but if you get a period of extended inflation that will make the real value of the payout a lot less.
Then there’s the thing that really kind of disturbs me: False Pretenses. The people who sell annuities seem to tell clients that they can have market returns with no down side risk. [b]They are lying[/b]. There’s no way remove yourself from the risk/reward equation and people who tell you they can do it for you are FOS.
To get around the inflation issue you could consider a variable annuity instead. But these have generally been [i]very[/i] expensive products. And then you still have investment risk… so why not just keep investing in the market without the annuity in a product that has a much lower fee structure.
I suppose if you really, really wanted an annuity you could go with Vanguard’s variable annuity, a lower cost option ( 0.57% expenses compared to an industry average of a whopping [b]2.27%[/b])
But overall, you are better off with long term performance from a diversified portfolio of low cost products that you rebalance over time to reflect an age-appropriate asset allocation.
Quote from uncleduke
…in your boat.
almost makes me want to read the post above. …. [i]almost[/i]
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The dirty little secret about annuities is that your agent gets to pocket the first payment. That would explain the hard-sell for a policy with $50K annual premium.
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All of that reinforces what I already thought of them, esp. the hard sell bit.
Rads I know working past (what I would hope would be) retirement age (for myself) are currently footing med school tuition for their kids.
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Sorry, I don’t know why my post ended up on this thread. Will try anew
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[link=http://finance.yahoo.com/news/five-ways-financial-adviser-screw-193729970.html]http://finance.yahoo.com/…r-screw-193729970.html[/link]
[b]
Five ways your financial adviser can screw up your retirement, legally[/b][/h1]
[b]
401(k)-IRA rollovers[/b][/b]Theres no reason to move the money to an individual retirement account, or IRA. ….investment firms push workers to do just that. For example, federal employees to shift assets into IRAs with fees that are 20 times as high as those in the Federal Thrift Savings Plan.
[b]Load fees [/b]
[/b]
When customers buy a mutual fund from a broker, theyre still often charged a front-load feea one-time fee that can swallow up more than 5 percent of their money before its invested. The proceeds from load fees help compensate advisers for their time… More and more investors are asking for no-load mutual funds. The Investment Company Institute estimates that $630 billion in load funds were sold in 2013, the latest data available.
[b]Opaque fees[/b][/b]
For example, a 12b-1 fee can be tacked on to a funds expenses every year, with the proceeds often going to an adviser years after he or she sold the fund. Most of these charges should be disclosed somewhere, but it can be very difficult for clients to add up all the various ways an adviser is making money off them.
[b]Active fund bias[/b][/b]
In many investment categories, low-fee index funds have historically performed better than actively managed mutual funds. But when an adviser meets a client with lots of assets in index funds, he or she often urges the client to reallocate into higher-fee funds.
85% of clients get recommendations to dump low cost funds.
[b][b]Poor performance[/b][/b]
Commissions, including load fees and 12b-1 fees, give advisers an incentive to recommend certain investment products over others. Firms can also give advisers bonuses for steering client money into the firms own funds.
A 2009 [link=http://rfs.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/4129.short]study[/link] found that direct-sold funds beat broker-sold funds by 0.14 to 0.9 percentage point per year, even disregarding the broker funds’ higher fees.-
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The worst investing mistake I’ve seen among physicians is to place too much trust in an untrustworthy advisor.-
I use Peter Lynch’s recommendation and buy stock in stuff I USE, like Apple, Nike, Exxon, and never really failed me. What has cost me is investing in shit I know nothing about because a broker is pushing his latest whatever–always a guaranteed loser so I ignore my broker and ask him for free mugs or tickets
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Wow thats a lot of people. About how big is the group?
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I am looking at a practice with >70 rads with 13 rads leaving in the last 3 months. Most of them because of retirement is what i am assuming (all did med school in early 70s). Is that bad?
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Quote from getintorads
I am looking at a practice with >70 rads with 13 rads leaving in the last 3 months. Most of them because of retirement is what i am assuming (all did med school in early 70s). Is that bad?
Any of them part of the leadership ? I would be worried if significant parts of the leadership retire at the same time.
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Quote from fw
Quote from getintorads
I am looking at a practice with >70 rads with 13 rads leaving in the last 3 months. Most of them because of retirement is what i am assuming (all did med school in early 70s). Is that bad?
Any of them part of the leadership ? I would be worried if significant parts of the leadership retire at the same time.
Agree with [b]fw[/b].
a) It makes one wonder if they know something bad is coming so they all want to retire and get their payout while their is still cash in the coffers.
b) Makes one worried for the future leadership if there becomes a dirth of financial/political/ leadership skills due to the retirements.-
great thoughts. Thanks for sharing. I will ask them if anyone is part of the leadership.
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Quote from Radonkulus
Let me tell you about one of the sr partners in my group—sits on his a$$ all day maybe doing eh..one procedure, giving all the HIV and hepatitis patients to everyone else, fiddling with his online retirement profile all day and when clinicians call him he punts the calls to everyone else so he can move stocks around more (I’ve seen this more than once). He maybe goes to a meeting every two weeks and negatively peer reviews everyone else and tells them to click on all positives for him. He also threatens others to count their RVU’s to make sure they’re not substantially higher than his and then threatens them with negative peer review over “quality issues”. What type of “dirth” would this actually be? He’s also a substantial liar and I don’t trust him at all when it comes to patient care issues but maybe that’s besides the point…or not.
You have a bad and lazy partner. He was probably a bad and lazy partner 10 years ago. This has little to do with retirement.
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It’s sorta turned into the farce that law is. If the person is reasonable, they usually won’t do bad stuff, and if they make a mistake, just due to integrity they’ll self correct. The problem, and when you need the law, is when the anti-socials make you go through the hassle. They realize that it’s so much work for you to get something done about their transgression that they end up winning most of the time. It’s a sick cycle. Your situation is the same. Inertia puts the ball in your court with very little downside to him unless you raise a ruckus, which will also hurt you … the sick cycle continues.
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There’s most definitely a subset of older radiologists who feel they built the practice from scratch and don’t want to lift a finger anymore. They are still “partners” in name but they have mentally checked out and have not officially retired. They call themselves “administrators” and live off the backs of the other employees. Consider yourself lucky if you are in a group devoid of this.
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How are they getting paid? If they’re being paid on straight salary then this is the behavior that encourages. If they’re being paid by their productivity then they can sit around all day, but they won’t get paid for it.
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(duplicate).
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I just feed the beast every month with excess cash flow into fstmx. tax efficient passive vehicle
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Quote from Radonkulus
By him refusing to look at studies, I mean I’m sending an outpatient stroking out in the MRI scanner to the ER, and there’s a patient all the while waiting for me on the table for a procedure and this guys still trying to punt reading one study to me from a referring clinician so he can go back to messing with his stocks. A woman I work with is the same way. How do you deal with this? It’s gone on for a few years now and I suspect for a long time before I arrived. I mean I am looking for another job and to get out while I can, but seriously, I can’t believe the total ridiculousness here has not been addressed.
Looks like your organization is devoid of leadership. If there is nobody in leadership willing to trim the dead meat, there is little you can do. Some employed departments work like that. The ‘leaders’ within the rads department are powerless and the ‘vice president of doorknobs and toiletpaper’ that the radiologists report to just wants to keep the peace and wouldn’t have the first idea how to discern a good from a bad radiologist.-
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Quote from DoctorDalai
The dirty little secret about annuities is that your agent gets to pocket the first payment. That would explain the hard-sell for a policy with $50K annual premium.
Quote from Adahn
All of that reinforces what I already thought of them, esp. the hard sell bit.
Rads I know working past (what I would hope would be) retirement age (for myself) are currently footing med school tuition for their kids.
When I first finished training there was a friend of our family who was a “financial planner and insurance salesman”. Financially green, I agreed to take a meeting with him.
He gave me the hard sell on tons of products. Annuities, rip-off life insurance policies… the whole thing. I left with about 3 pounds of glossy literature.
The guy was a caricature of a slimy salesman. When he called me the very next day, I told him I wasn’t interested.
He then proceeded to call me over and over anyway. Every day for 2 weeks. Then every week for six months. Then every quarter for the next 4 years. Then finally never. Ugh.
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Dergon, maybe you have an opinion on this one:
I was discussing with an investment friend, some time ago, the topic you brought up before, that of no investment losses when market losses occur, only gains when it goes up (but a small portion of course). My friend thought that this was taking advantage of ignorant investors, since long term the markets go up and these guys are taking large % of the gains while paying out only a little when that happens. I counter saying that well, that’s the price you pay for not wanting to ever have a loss on investment when the market goes down. People with any common sense (doesn’t have to do with financial knowledge) should immediately realize this, shouldn’t they?
The last question I have regards if the market takes a huge hit. Do people really think the companies are going to be able to make sure you have no losses? What if they fold because the market got crushed so bad? I know a lot of people over the last few years in finance that have said, we might as well invest in Goldman Sachs (bonds) because it’s only upside — if they go down, we all go down. So it’s an easy decision to make.-
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Speaking of “financial advisors”…
I have a friend who I’ve known for about 3 years, young guy, good guy. He started working straight out of high school, has no college degree. He asked me for advice on being pre-med, and I was helping him with the basics, i.e. where to find out pre med course requirements, volunteering, research etc. He was taking classes at the local junior college, and was not sure that going pre-med was right for him.
Then one day, he tells me that he was introduced by good mutual friend to a very successful financial advisor, head of some section in a big company, and the guy was going out of his way to get him a job at their company. Soon he is studying for various degrees in financial advising (maybe they should be called certificates rather than degrees, as they are more akin to getting a qualification to be a real estate sales agent, i.e. some classes and taking a state exam).
Fast forward a year, he has been hired by his buddies firm and he is doing quite well. New car, nice suits, and I’ve seen some of his stuff online, very slick and professional looking. He is doing financial advising and presumably making money from specific investments that his firm pushes.
I wonder how many of his clients are aware that he never finished college, that he is giving them investing advice that he read in books without any real world experience, and that he has never had to manage his own money because he’s never had any real money, much less owned a home or purchased a stock. I’m happy for him that his current job has much more upward mobility than his last job, but the whole thing makes me trust financial “advisors” even less than I did in the past.
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It could be argued that much of what we learn in college is hoop-jumping and not applicable to our everyday jobs and lives.
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I suppose my point is that we radiologists go through 5 years of reviewing imaging studies with attendings and learn to work autonomously/semi-autonomously on-call and having our misses QA’d and getting pimped up the wazoo in conference.
People – like physicians – who have some wealth and some experience managing it (however little) should be careful that they don’t end up paying for the services of someone claiming expertise but who has never had any wealth of their own to manage, and only recently started giving advice about others’ wealth after taking a few courses.-
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For those of you with 1099 income, do you contribute to a solo 401k?
Are there any disadvantages to this approach after maxing out 401k, roth, hsa? Any recommendations on a plan administrator, especially one that allows in service distributions?
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This is the issue with society, and particularly modern society, in general. There are very few things that really matter (medicine, as determined by the society, not by us is one of them) and thus those are going to be the heavily regulated fields by the societal impulse as well as what they carry (long terms/stages of training). In wealthy countries everything else, then, falls to … marketing. Shoot, medicine has even gone to that (guess why? “Business” people are involved and know how to influence people, that’s their “business”.
You make money and want to invest? Sure you do, you can’t have money not working for you, what’s the point of that? Brochures, slick suits, and “trust” are right around the corner.
In the 1970s and 80s a guy you trusted who was a good guy had a great economy on his side to do a good job for you. Now, the little guy is just a pawn to big group manipulations. That’s why investing is so much harder. I often drive around and see “financial planner” and wonder, how the hell does anyone choose guy X and what the heck is it based on?
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