[medical8]

I hope so. Too many old rads around skimming profits from hard-working young rads.

[jquinones8812_854]

Not in my group. 

[arg2626]

Too early, gotta wait for them to cash out first.

[btomba_77]

The problem is the “fear”.   Even with the market at all time highs, many of the people in my group still feel as if the world go to sh*t at any time now.  Their brokerage accounts might be doing fine, but in the back of their mind they think we might be hoardingcanned food and guns within the nexy 12 months.

[Patrick]

Inflation adjusted, still 10% from prior real peak value. WSJ today.

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

I think it goes both ways here.  There is such a variety of people practicing that a blank statement doesn’t always apply.  Are rads in their 70s really up to date on everything?  Possible, but not likely.  Where i am, there are many people who won’t read MR of any kind on call.  Guess what that does to me as the only MR reader when i have to work with them?   on the other hand, academic rads in their early 60s probably are up to date.  Much of this depends on how much you like to study after you come home from work, whether you be 35, 50 or 70.   

[lisbef3_453]

Quote from NYC

Inflation adjusted, still 10% from prior real peak value. WSJ today.

 
Also, (from zerohedge)
[ul][*][b]GDP Growth:[/b] Then +2.5%; Now +1.6%[*][b]Regular Gas Price:[/b] Then $2.75; Now $3.73[*][b]Americans Unemployed (in Labor Force):[/b] Then 6.7 million; Now 13.2 million[*][b]Americans On Food Stamps:[/b] Then 26.9 million; Now 47.69 million[*][b]Size of Fed’s Balance Sheet:[/b] Then $0.89 trillion; Now $3.01 trillion[*][b]US Debt as a Percentage of GDP:[/b] Then ~38%; Now 74.2%[*][b]US Deficit (LTM):[/b] Then $97 billion; Now $975.6 billion[*][b]Total US Debt Oustanding:[/b] Then $9.008 trillion; Now $16.43 trillion [/ul]  
More importantly, if you’re anywhere close to retirement, should you really be that exposed to the casino we call the stock market?
[ul] [/ul]

[ka.amirzadeh]

Quote from dergon

The problem is the “fear”.   Even with the market at all time highs, many of the people in my group still feel as if the world go to sh*t at any time now.  Their brokerage accounts might be doing fine, but in the back of their mind they think we might be hoardingcanned food and guns within the nexy 12 months.

Well, if you haven’t been doing that for the last 12 mos, you might be a little late. [:)]

[medical8]

Quote from MISTRAD

Not in my group. 

Does that mean no one is retiring? Or that your junior members get paid adequate compensation based on their skills and volume of work/contributions to the group?

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

Gas prices are essentially irrelevant for anyone making >100k a year, unless you drive something that gets 16mpg average and drive 30k miles a year.  

[emily.perry_477]

Quote from wisdom

Gas prices are essentially irrelevant for anyone making >100k a year, unless you drive something that gets 16mpg average and drive 30k miles a year.  

Keep in mind not just about gas you put in your car.  Gas price is a good way to compare cost.  Virtually everything brought into our lives requires gas: food, grocery, services and their interconnections.  The entire list is relevant.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Hubcap

Virtually everything brought into our lives requires gas: food, grocery, services and their interconnections. 

And, of course, moving hubcaps around. 

[Unknown Member]

I think that the next few months will tell a lot. If Congress can get it’s act together and pass a budget (CR or otherwise), approve increase in debt limit then people will feel more comfortable about long term aspects. That is what is needed to really swing retirements.

[Unknown Member]

@ burton – 
I agree with Kpack that in my experience, the younger rads (<55) are driving much of the trend toward being cheap. In this age range, they came in with expectations of high salaries for 30 years, and set up their family finances with this in mind. Non-working wife, second home, 5 kids in private schools, etc. Then the game changed, and they have to figure out how to retain as many $ as they can so that they don’t lose their dream. 
 
There are so many facets to this discussion of older rad production. Much is about perception: “he doesn’t seem to be as harried as I am, he must not be working hard”. I long ago learned to never tell any of my partners I had an easy day. Always let them know how many times you were interrupted, all the nasty calls, etc. Some older guys just quietly read the cases, they have their algorithms well memorized. Appearance A means dicatation 1. It has gotten much easier for me over the years for this reason.
 
And, if you want to talk RVU’s, keep in mind that many of the older guys have no access to the high RVU/unit-time-reading cases such as MR that you might. If they weren’t there, you would be stuck reading all the chests that you can get 5 RVU’s/ hour on.

[Unknown Member]

Totally agree with Dr S.
 
This greedy older rad sucking up jobs thing is not true as I see it.
 
The individuals who do not want to hire and do not want you to be partner are the newer rads who are driven by fear of falling incomes for whatever reasons may be.
 
I mean seriously How many older rads completely control Rad groups these days????

[Unknown Member]

Ironically, the newbie poster on the “boomer” thread says that the boomers have ruined it because they have priortized money and production above qualty. 
 
So which is it? 
 
It is neither, and both. Depends on the people
This character assassination based solely on demographics really is unseemly. In another context, it would be called racism. Haven’t we grown past that?

[Unknown Member]

I think it is being started by a few who have no clue about why rad groups hiring policies and packages have changed over the last 5 years.
 
In my experience, its not the old guys driving hiring policy.  Its the more recent hires driven by fear and large debt and mortgages
 
I actually know a few groups that like to have older rads around because they Shut up work and cause no waves.  AKA they realize they can no longer change the world or preach to it.
 

[medical8]

I know where u guys are coming from. As I said in my post before I am not trying to say every rad over 50, arbitrary age, is ruining it for all rads under 40, again arbitrary age. I am relatively new to the field, in practice less then 5 years, and realize I still have much to learn in both medicine and business of radiology. All I can report is from my experience. My group is in major city with poor payer mix patient population. Most uninsured or Medicaid. Groups in similar situations are probably feeling same financial pressures my group is. If we had more private insurers, as I suspect sardonicus and kpack have, things wouldn’t be as bad. If I am wrong about ur payer mix, please share your secrets for financial success.

Again from my experience, at least half of older rads in my group are gaming the system. Although most are working hard, there are workarounds, such as reading mostly head ct and dvt us instead of more complex body ct. That leaves the complex body work to the younger rads. I don’t mind as I am comfortable with these cases. My frustration is there is no system in place to differentiate a simple r/o appe on helthy 22 yo from post op bowel perf in 70 yo. On paper they both are same rvu, but in practice, the latter can often take 2-3x as long to interpret. And there-in lies the rub.

[aaishafatima999_432]

Trend in all businesses/professions if for individuals to work longer. Or to go back to work after initial retirement. Radiology as I see it is no different. Old Guard is not the bugaboo here. Rising undiminished expectations by younger young guns may have something to do with it. Radiology changed, cheese was moved, govt policy towards medicine changed, patient expectations changed, employer policies toward health benefits changed drastically. It is a brave new world.
The Old Guard is working and saving , and has the experience to know that the threats are real. Young guns are in the blaming stage, that will pass, they will cope, reduce consumption and expectations, buy less, etc., as they should.
No pity by the electorate or DC denizens for radiologists, believe you me.

[medical8]

Quote from MSK/SW

Trend in all businesses/professions if for individuals to work longer. Or to go back to work after initial retirement. Radiology as I see it is no different. Old Guard is not the bugaboo here. Rising undiminished expectations by younger young guns may have something to do with it. Radiology changed, cheese was moved, govt policy towards medicine changed, patient expectations changed, employer policies toward health benefits changed drastically. It is a brave new world.
The Old Guard is working and saving , and has the experience to know that the threats are real. Young guns are in the blaming stage, that will pass, they will cope, reduce consumption and expectations, buy less, etc., as they should.
No pity by the electorate or DC denizens for radiologists, believe you me.

I am not promoting the commoditization of medicine, nor the practice of converting it to strictly a business. I think the biggest crooks in the world are those in the financial sector. These guys continue to bring in millions if not billions of dollars a year by destroying the middle and lower upper class. A decade ago, wealthy was income over 250K. Now you can argue it is more like 500K. These figures only apply to metro centers where cost of living is significantly higher. For reference see CEO of Goldman who was paid 20M last year whhile he laid off at least 2000 employees.
 
I know the RVU system is unfair. AFAIK it was principally created by neurorads, or at least heavily influenced by them. Hence why anything brain related is so high. The average head CT or brain MRI is arguably not very complex to read. I am not trying to minimize neurorad in any way. If you look at brain CT from ER, at least 75% are normal or SVID and atrophy. 
 
I think the problem most younger rads, myself included have are, we realize times are changing. Decreased reimbursements mean smaller pie to share. It seems that most groups, at least in my experience, are squeezing the younger rads so the senior guys can maintain the income/lifestyle they had a decade ago. No one can work forever, If I was a practice manager I would want to reward the young up-and-coming rad, to encourage them to stay with the group rather then jumping ship when the market improves. And I know it will improve at some point.
 
And just for reference, maybe some of the active posters in this thread can give an indication of their level of experience, geographic region of practice, and payer mix. People tend to use anonymity of message boards to intimidate others.

[Unknown Member]

If you were the practice manager, you are the employee of the practice, who is owned by the ones in power, who generally are the ones you are complaining about. So you would not care at all about the younger ones, you want to please your employer.

[medical8]

Quote from Dr.Sardonicus

If you were the practice manager, you are the employee of the practice, who is owned by the ones in power, who generally are the ones you are complaining about. So you would not care at all about the younger ones, you want to please your employer.

 
OK, so maybe i used the wrong term. How about the “partners” or whoever makes decisions about salary and raises? If I had influence on the purse strings, I would want to keep younger rads in the group by rewarding their hard work. 

[Unknown Member]

You know – I am with you. I think it is penny wise and pound foolish to be cheap with new talent.
 
But I am the minority. Most think about whether they are out of line with the market – too high. Hey – trimming 30k off an offer can net each partner an extra 1k after taxes!
[link=http://www.auntminnie.com/Forum/tm.aspx?m=377410&mpage=1#]Post Message[/link]
(Like I said – I think this thinking is stupid)

[Unknown Member]

What kind of group governance are you in that senior rads can “squeeze” the younger rads? Non voting shareholder? Are vacation, percent of accounts receivable, and call not divided equally? Or arranged so those that want to work more get paid more and those that want more vacation or less call get paid less?

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from vonbraun

What kind of group governance are you in that senior rads can “squeeze” the younger rads? Non voting shareholder? Are vacation, percent of accounts receivable, and call not divided equally? Or arranged so those that want to work more get paid more and those that want more vacation or less call get paid less?

 
 
Easy.  Many ways to squeeze the younger rads.  I see it all the time.
 
Whomever does the schedule has a lot of power.  Usually the chief, but not always.  Easy to put new hires at the sites everyone else in the group hates going to.  I’ve seen this numerous times, while the scheduler puts himself and his friends weighted towards the easier rotations. 
 
The new and younger ones take a few or more years to catch on and/or feel comfortable or confident enough to bring this up and protest. 
 
I have seen a number of older rads become so complacent and lazy, they can’t even read a CT or MR scan.  Not having the stimulation of CT or MR would drive most of us crazy, but there are actually some rads, and some actually not that old, that all they do is plain film, US and mammo.   Sit in their chair half asleep and go through these cases with one eye closed. 
 
I know of many groups who have a significantly greater amount of time to share in the profits of their imaging centers than it takes to become a partner.  So all the younger rads are doing all the tough CT and MR cases, while the profits from these cases are disproportionately going to the older rads, some of whom can’t even read a CT or MR.
 
I haven’t seen anywhere in a contract where it says you can’t be scheduled every day at the crappy sites no one else in the group wants to go to.  Could be an hour from your house.  Nothing in the contract says anyone has to care you live the farthest from the crappiest site than anyone else in the group, but yet are scheduled at the crappiest site more than anyone else.
 
I’ve even seen whomever does the RVUs change the numbers in his favor.  Or groups that are not transparent with RVUs, so that you can’t double check your own numbers.  Youre just given your RVUs.   Even though you can keep track of how many of each type of case you’ve read this month, for example, they will withhold the factor scale they’re using. 
 
Numerous more ways to squeeze younger rads while still playing by the rules of the contract.  Happens all the time.  Those of you that have a Chief that resists this corruption, and leads by example, he or she is priceless, IMO.
 
 
 
 

  
 

[medical8]

Quote from vonbraun

What kind of group governance are you in that senior rads can “squeeze” the younger rads? Non voting shareholder? Are vacation, percent of accounts receivable, and call not divided equally? Or arranged so those that want to work more get paid more and those that want more vacation or less call get paid less?

 
To answer your questions:
1. Yes, non-voting
2. No, they are not
3. Yes, more work=more pay
 
Basically, the worst job you can think of. I took it to be close to family and friends. So its partly my own fault. But its not easy to move halfway across the country for a better job, especially when you are married and have kids, and both sides of your family are in the same region.
 
I just continue to hustle and bust my ass, doing the best i can, cause I have no other options until the job market improves.
 
Dr. S, I do appreciate the business education. They don’t teach this stuff in med school and residency.

[PatrickServaes]

Quote from burton_rads

I hope so. Too many old rads around skimming profits from hard-working young rads.

Nice. I’m 66, in a practice with 70-80 rads (I lost count). It’s 2 years to partnership (much better than I had it). So rads in my group who are in their 30s are making the same as I am, with no buy-in. They work the same number of hours, have the same vacation time, same benefits and work the same number of weekends. Scheduling is done by administrators working with a committee comprising young and older rads.  
 
We old-timers are not “skimming” anything from our young rads.   And we screw no one; in all the years I’ve been part of my practice, only one new hire didn’t get offered partnership, for good reasons.  If young rads are good, we keep them. We need them because we can’t keep up with our overwhelming, ever growing volume. In fact, we hired 12 more over the last year who will be starting in the Summer.

[Unknown Member]

It seems like the retirement Pattern in rads is cyclical too. I think from 2002-2007 there were a lot retirements. Not sure economy or just random. I’m not exactly sure lack of retirement is keeping hungry young hard working rads from finding jobs. I’m still not hearing of many unemployed rads.

I definitely see starting salaries going down, partnership tracts either going up or non existent. …… But from my experience that is usually the younger in debt rads pushing that pathway not the old more secure rads

Rarely in my careers have I met a lazy older radiologist. Usually the ones that last the longest are moderately productive and ver congenial. I’m sure the lazy old rad exists somewhere but I’m not sure why the old rads are getting such a bad rap on this forum. If you newly minted or soon to be minted rads think you are getting screwed. You are getting screwed most likely by the younger rads who have student loans huge mortgages and had it too easy for a few years.

[medical8]

Quote from kpack123

Rarely in my careers have I met a lazy older radiologist. Usually the ones that last the longest are moderately productive and ver congenial. I’m sure the lazy old rad exists somewhere but I’m not sure why the old rads are getting such a bad rap on this forum. If you newly minted or soon to be minted rads think you are getting screwed. You are getting screwed most likely by the younger rads who have student loans huge mortgages and had it too easy for a few years. 

 
So I guess I shouldn’t make blanket statements like that. In my experience, less then 5 yrs out of fellowship, the groups I have worked with have had a few older rads who don’t pull their weight. These guys are actually being forced out, or cut to part time. But I do know at least one other hospital based group that was so poorly run, they lost the contract. The older rads in that group were definitely complacent and allowed the whole group to fall apart.
 
As far as unemployment goes, maybe underemployed is a better term? I know of a recent job posting in last year for partner-track postion that received 30 applications in 1 day, and at least 50 within a week of posting. 50 rads for 1 job opening seems like unemployment or undereployment to me.
 
The whole cost of living thing is relative, I agree. But most rads who are out less then 5 years probably have large student loans, especially if from private med schools. I dont know off-hand what tuition was 20 years ago, but i imagine docs who graduated med school in 80’s have less then half the debt grads from 2000’s have. Plus they enjoyed the “good times” of radiology and have long since paid them off. My student loans are near $1000/mo and that’s amortized over 30 years. The cost of tuition has increased roughly 4-fold in inflation adjusted dollars from 1985-2005, see ref below.
 
ref: [link=http://hospitalmedicine.ucsf.edu/downloads/history_of_med_student_debt_greysen.pdf]http://hospitalmedicine.u…udent_debt_greysen.pdf[/link]

[aaishafatima999_432]

What the young uns are asking for is term limits for radiologists … but not for Congress? or is that part of it too? just asking…

[Unknown Member]

I agree.  All of the young pro growth capitalists want the competition to go away so they can control the market
 
 

[g.giancaspro_108]

Burton,
A useful maneuver you may already know is to make everyone read the list from oldest to newest, excepting stats of course. Although this can still be gamed, it may reduce the problem a bit. With pacs everything can be tracked so it is easy to pinpoint troublemakers if they exist.

[Unknown Member]

OK – let’s beat this dead horse some more.
 
Gaming the system for RVU’s….
 
It will always happen. RVU’s are not measurements of clinical work. Period. End. 
 
If they were accurate, then it would not be possible to game the system. Any piece of work would be the same as any other. But, as you testify, it is not. 
 
And, in most groups, there is some sort of built in gaming of the system, if you want to call it that. People who trained to do subspecialties with high RVU’s get a lot of RVU’s and are typically a  little holier than thou about it. They may work less hard than most (by some measure you want to name), and make more RVU’s. 
 
So – two choices, and only two – ignore it or game the system. There are innumerable ways to play the game. Make a game out of gaming it. Have fun. Be creative. It is the new world of medicine. 

[nasosmunfc_332]

Cozy schedule at the most desirable site, high fast rvu material, no procedures; i’ve seen it throughout my career not with just the seniors but anyone with connections or a title

[Unknown Member]

In my group, we distribute equivalent volumes by RVU to each chair.  Everyone has to pull their own weight.  If you don’t read MRI (which has a high RVU value) you get an EQUIVALENT AMOUNT (greater number) of other cases.
 
By my observation, it is frequently the younger rads that have trouble keeping up.  They spend too much time describing less than 4 mm pul nodules, small indeterminate liver, renal cysts etc. .
 
Also, the “young pups” never took “real call”; No Nighthawk – on by yourself all night, have to do your own angio, come in to the hospital for every CT, etc.  (Admittedly, volumes were lower in those days)
 
Would you like some cheese to go with you whine?

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Legacy Flyer

In my group, we distribute equivalent volumes by RVU to each chair.  Everyone has to pull their own weight.  If you don’t read MRI (which has a high RVU value) you get an EQUIVALENT AMOUNT (greater number) of other cases.

By my observation, it is frequently the younger rads that have trouble keeping up.  

Exactly.  Anyone will adapt to the system they are in.  If the system is fair, such as yours, the old rads will develop into lean, mean fighting machines.  If the system is corrupt, with opportunites for sneaking around and getting out of work, the old rads will atrophy.
 
 

[Unknown Member]

If call, vacation, voting, and salaries are fair, the younger rads should be able to adapt to group politics and fix unfair work assignments. You have to build support with other sympathetic rads in the group. Pick your fights carefully. Some things are not worth fussing over and all groups have some things that are not quite fair. Its analagous to marriage.
I have never been in a group with a “chief”. All have been messy democracies. But i have only worked in 2 places in 23 years. One group did have a board of directors, but they functioned fair and well.

[Unknown Member]

My god – seems like an epidemic of whining among radiology trainees broke out on AM . It’s the ubiquitous larger than life senior partner living off of the sweat of the young ones – this coming from folks who have never worked a real radiology job in their lives.

Kpack had it part right on a different thread – the newer guys do hold the key to hiring. And based on what I’m witnessing on this board I’m going to have to favor a mature rad coming from a different practice over an entitled fresh grad. This is quite pathetic.

[Unknown Member]

IGOT KIDS  – Generally, I think you seem level headed, but on the comment about not getting an ownership position in the imaging center, you are showing inexperience. Here is the take of the owners:
 
A few years ago, we thought we should start an imaging center. We knew there were risks, but decided to go ahead. The partners at the time formed a company, and we all pitched in $$$$$$$ to get it to go. We all worked many extra hours to get it to go. We have had to endure threats from the administration. We have had to spend a lot of extra time promoting and overseeing the construction, the purchase of equipment, and the hiring of people. It got up and running in 2007. Then, the next year the DRA cuts hit and nearly threw us out of business. We made it through be constant attention to the schedule, calling referrings with results on each case, and a lot of time spent managing people. The volume was slow at first, and we had to use a full time rad to fill a space that had 10% of a days work, but over 18 months it went up to a full day. In between, we had to hire another rad because  the volume at the hospital went up (without an uptick in income) and we were short due to the staffing requirements of the imaging center. This was Dr. A. 
 
He got the same deal as everyone else, 3 years to partner, increasing salary through that time. Now he seems upset because he isn’t getting to be part of the technical profits on the imaging center. We offerred him a $200000 buy in, but he seemed insulted. He wants to be made a partner in the imaging center. I am $200k in the hole, and now because of DRA, we would have to sell at a loss. Just a year ago we crossed the line of profitability, and I am getting a check at the end of each year. I hope to be even after 4-5 more years. If Dr. A thinks that he can come here and be included in this business solely because he is reading cases, well, he just doesn’t get it. 
 
So  – IGot – probably a good idea to run your complaints by us here on AM. Saves you looking inexperienced to your partners. 
 
 

[jquinones8812_854]

Dr. S proves the point: most docs don’t have a clue how businesses are run.  They thing they are ‘worth’ something inherently.  Sorry, they are not. 

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Dr.Sardonicus

I am $200k in the hole, and now because of DRA, we would have to sell at a loss. Just a year ago we crossed the line of profitability, and I am getting a check at the end of each year. I hope to be even after 4-5 more years. If Dr. A thinks that he can come here and be included in this business solely because he is reading cases, well, he just doesn’t get it. 

So  – IGot – probably a good idea to run your complaints by us here on AM. Saves you looking inexperienced to your partners. 

Ouch, sorry you’re 200K+ in the hole.   I have yet to learn a lesson as financially painful, but try to folllow what several older rads told me when i was starting:  “Never take investment advice from a physician.”  This is because of the terrible history those radiologists’ had in their own investments.  And yes, including their imaging centers, similar to your scenario.  Other rads in the group lost lots of money in all sorts of other ventures.

[Unknown Member]

Sadly, physicians tend to make poor investments. My spouse was a banker and she saw this phenomenon quite often. In fact, poor business decisions and divorce are much more likely to affect your net worth than an excess verdict from a medical tort.

[Unknown Member]

OK I just re-read what I wrote and I didn’t mean to mislead anyone. That is not what happened to me. Those were the thoughts of a “composite” radiologist in one of the very many groups who started imaging centers when that was the craze. 
I didn’t make that clear enough. When I wrote it I was hearing this guy in my head, and I guess you can’t hear him in the same way. 
 
But – the point was to explain the point of view of someone who had invested A LOT into his business, and therefore was not at all willing to just give a share away.
 
 

[Unknown Member]

OK I just re-read what I wrote and I didn’t mean to mislead anyone. That is not what happened to me. Those were the thoughts of a “composite” radiologist in one of the very many groups who started imaging centers when that was the craze. 
I didn’t make that clear enough. When I wrote it I was hearing this guy in my head, and I guess you can’t hear him in the same way. 
 
But – the point was to explain the point of view of someone who had invested A LOT into his business, and therefore was not at all willing to just give a share away.
 
 

[mario.mtz30_447]

 
Well, that’s a great thing then, because you’ve just gotten your $200K back!  What a relief! 
Your point is taken, there is a lot of risk and work that goes into the practice to even provide the opportunity for the new guy to be able to work there.

[Unknown Member]

Here is a true story

No names to protect the innocent. Hopefully this individual reads this though

A few years back a smaller group established a JV imaging center with their primary hospital. Each member put up 30, grand for their share

A new partner came on with a 6 months to partnership became a full partner after 6 months. This person scoffed at the buy- in to the group which was based on hard assets only and the additional 30grand for the imaging JV

The group made the overture to the newbie that the buyin to the JV would come directly from distributions which were given quarterly……… Basically this individual would kick in no money and just forego distributions from the imaging center which was about 18 months

Well about a year later the hospital bought out the groups share of the Imaging center. Each partner was handed a check of just under 200k.

The new partner still owed about 10 grand on the original buy- in…….. Which she never really put a dime up because the distributions were funding it.

When the check came the groups accounted subtracted what was left of her buy in basically 10 grand

Understand now, the original members all put up 30 grand of their own money

This new partner and her lawyerhusband were upset that the 10 grand that she did owe was subtracted from her share

Basically this person walked into a group with nothing was handed a check for 175k 18 months later and was convinced that she go shafted

True Story

[jquinones8812_854]

Quote from kpack123

Here is a true story

No names to protect the innocent. Hopefully this individual reads this though

A few years back a smaller group established a JV imaging center with their primary hospital. Each member put up 30, grand for their share

A new partner came on with a 6 months to partnership became a full partner after 6 months. This person scoffed at the buy- in to the group which was based on hard assets only and the additional 30grand for the imaging JV

The group made the overture to the newbie that the buyin to the JV would come directly from distributions which were given quarterly……… Basically this individual would kick in no money and just forego distributions from the imaging center which was about 18 months

Well about a year later the hospital bought out the groups share of the Imaging center. Each partner was handed a check of just under 200k.

The new partner still owed about 10 grand on the original buy- in…….. Which she never really put a dime up because the distributions were funding it.

When the check came the groups accounted subtracted what was left of her buy in basically 10 grand

Understand now, the original members all put up 30 grand of their own money

This new partner and her lawyerhusband were upset that the 10 grand that she did owe was subtracted from her share

Basically this person walked into a group with nothing was handed a check for 175k 18 months later and was convinced that she go shafted

True Story

 
This is the norm.  Why?  Because medical grads don’t have a clue how businesses are run, and have an oversized ego by the time they get out of residency. 

[scottgood421]

sardonicus / igk2f – this is so true!  The adjunct imaging center that goes from financial gravy train on paper-  to burdensome divisive nightmare.  I have seen a couple of groups torn apart by clinic ownership that did not include the whole partnership.
 
Whether it is bunking off early and sloughing hospital cases – to go read clinic films, or a government scaling back of technical fees in the clinics requiring professional fee income to cover running costs – it is a bad situation.
 
You could write a soap opera about docs trying too hard to become entrepreneurial business men.  The partner who wants to retire, refuses to take call and will not work in the imaging center – but refuses to sell his/her equity stake.  Better still – the partner who puts the clinic equity into his wife’s name for tax planning purposes – and then runs off with her employee – the hot new technologist ! Never a dull moment…………..
 
Multi tier partnership situations are a disaster. 

[jun52.park]

Gold had the biggest 2 day drop in 30 years…..hope you loaded up Cigar!

[ka.amirzadeh]

I started an ED corp with a friend. We were each about $500k in the hole and were definitely going down after the next month and then we got smart and changed billing companies and cleaned up. At the time two other people were given the chance to “buy in” and share the pain of unsecured loans accruing with no positive returns from the billing. They opted not to buy in and remained our employees. My friend and I each made the most money in that next year that I have ever made in my life. We were fair to the other two and gave them what we considered to be a large bonus and then split the rest 50/50. From then on we did well and eventually allowed people to be a “partner” without buy in based on unanimous vote by management. It worked well. We were happy. We did well. 
 
My point is this. We weren’t greedy after the first year made us more money than we knew what to do with. Yes, we did almost lose our asses, but we didn’t after that first year bonus check to each other we were not only flush, but way ahead of the LOC. We had people wanting to work for us and we could pick and choose. We all were very happy.
 
I predict you will never see this mentality in a OP imaging center in a rad group. It just won’t happen. Largely right now because most aren’t very viable anymore and any buy in is planned to kind of prop up the existing partner’s losses while they hopefully wait for better days. Just my $0.02.

[Unknown Member]

Four people have retired in my practice this year alone and three are going down to 60/80%

[PatrickServaes]

I’m 65. Can’t retire because my wife and I just don’t have enough saved yet (it’s a long story). Also, my wife is not old enough yet to be eligible for Medicare. I would like to cut my hours back to 75-80%, but my practice won’t allow me at this time because we just don’t have enough bodies to handle the volume and boots on the ground requirements. We’re bringing on another dozen or so rads in Autumn so I get another parole hearing then.

[washburnz]

How, may I ask, does your RVU system work to maintain equality? How are the studies assigned equally to the physicians reading?
 
I would love to go to an RVU system as one of the senior radiologists does not come near to pulling his load. He reads every venous, Dexa, and orthopedic followup film. He does not read his share of cross sectional. We are on an equal revenue split.  If we went to RVU’s, I’m sure he would manage to snag every 30 yo MRI brain for headache if we just selected studies from a list and come out ahead.
 

[Unknown Member]

In my opinion one the MAJOR flaws of our education is the nearly complete lack of training in the business of medicine. Part of the reason we get s****ed by hospitals and insurance companies is they put up trained business people against people with no training at all. Yes a lot of the older guys have learned it over time, but frequently by seeing mistakes being made.
 
I have been on both sides of OPIC buyins. Personally I think they should be separate from the group. I don’t believe in buyins to a group. In my mind the reduced salary that you work for as a newby employee is your buyin. When it comes to tech profits(if any) at OPIC then that should be separate. Buyin should be voluntary and based on the cost of assets. As a newnby you may or may not find that investing is worthwhile. When I started in PP a buyin was so lucrative that your buyin was paid by your profits over a 2 year buyin. Now those numbers are very different. I know groups that have to actaully take hits to pro fees just to keep a center solvent. If your are in that situation then only those that get technical fees should take the hit.
 
I do sense a very large sense of entitlement to many of the younger guys here. They seem to think that they are owed a job, where they want, doing what they want for equal pay as full partner. That isn’t ever going to happen until we are all employees. This entire concept that older rads should quit to make room for younger is nuts. I have no obligation to them whatsoever. If I want to work until I am 80 and am capable of doing the job, then nobody should say to quit. (Believe me I wll never see even 65 as a worker)

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Raddocmed

I do sense a very large sense of entitlement to many of the younger guys here. They seem to think that they are owed a job, where they want, doing what they want for equal pay as full partner. That isn’t ever going to happen until we are all employees. This entire concept that older rads should quit to make room for younger is nuts. I have no obligation to them whatsoever. If I want to work until I am 80 and am capable of doing the job, then nobody should say to quit. (Believe me I wll never see even 65 as a worker)

Sense of entitlement can go both ways.  In the case of the established rad, can manifest as the attitude “I’m a partner, can’t fire me, so I’ll do what I want and my friends will enable me.” 
 
And no one is going to force the 70 year olds to retire unless they can’t work anymore.  It’s just very sad that they are working at 70,  that’s all.  My own wife is telling me she’s not going to let me work past 60, and saves as much as she can to make it happen.  She does her own nails, found a very reasonable hairdresser, and buys her clothes at Target.  At the other end of the spectrum, I work with someone who hates going home and stays at work at much as he can.  His wife is always asking for more money for the country club, fancy cars, and jewelry.  He’ll likely be one of the 70 year old workers.
 
 

[mario.mtz30_447]

Actually, I take back my quote “no one is going to force the 70 year olds to retire.”  My colleague just told me he knows of several groups where there is a mandatory retirement at 70.

[medical8]

Quote from Raddocmed

In my opinion one the MAJOR flaws of our education is the nearly complete lack of training in the business of medicine. Part of the reason we get s****ed by hospitals and insurance companies is they put up trained business people against people with no training at all. Yes a lot of the older guys have learned it over time, but frequently by seeing mistakes being made.

…

I do sense a very large sense of entitlement to many of the younger guys here. They seem to think that they are owed a job, where they want, doing what they want for equal pay as full partner. That isn’t ever going to happen until we are all employees. This entire concept that older rads should quit to make room for younger is nuts. I have no obligation to them whatsoever. If I want to work until I am 80 and am capable of doing the job, then nobody should say to quit. (Believe me I wll never see even 65 as a worker)

 
 I completely agree with 1st part of post about business training. Completely [i][b]disagree[/b][/i] with last part. I dont believe in entitlements, like most radiologists I assume. What I do believe in is appropriate compensation for work put in. If you can continue to do your job at age 80, then god bless you. If I could, I would retire at 60 and travel the world with my wife and spend time with my children, and hopefully grandchildren by then. Your statement on younger rads feeling entitled is ignorant and judgmental, as much so as the posts saying older rads are slow and killing the job market. There is truth on both sides of the coin, but blanket statements like this do nothing to advance the field.

[jquinones8812_854]

Quote from burton_rads

Quote from Raddocmed

In my opinion one the MAJOR flaws of our education is the nearly complete lack of training in the business of medicine. Part of the reason we get s****ed by hospitals and insurance companies is they put up trained business people against people with no training at all. Yes a lot of the older guys have learned it over time, but frequently by seeing mistakes being made.

…

I do sense a very large sense of entitlement to many of the younger guys here. They seem to think that they are owed a job, where they want, doing what they want for equal pay as full partner. That isn’t ever going to happen until we are all employees. This entire concept that older rads should quit to make room for younger is nuts. I have no obligation to them whatsoever. If I want to work until I am 80 and am capable of doing the job, then nobody should say to quit. (Believe me I wll never see even 65 as a worker)

I completely agree with 1st part of post about business training. Completely [i][b]disagree[/b][/i] with last part. I dont believe in entitlements, like most radiologists I assume. What I do believe in is appropriate compensation for work put in. If you can continue to do your job at age 80, then god bless you. If I could, I would retire at 60 and travel the world with my wife and spend time with my children, and hopefully grandchildren by then. Your statement on younger rads feeling entitled is ignorant and judgmental, as much so as the posts saying older rads are slow and killing the job market. There is truth on both sides of the coin, but blanket statements like this do nothing to advance the field.

 
I don’t know if ‘entitlement’ is the right word.

I think the appropriate word is ‘cluelessness’.
 
New grads believe they are worth something, inherently.  That is not true.  They have the [i][b]potential [/b][/i]to be worth something, but inherently, there value is pretty close to nil.  When a group hires someone, it is almost like an investment in the future, and like all investments, some do not pay off. 

[drankur88_471]

It seems like there are really 3 general groups in this sort of discussion. You have the well established guys, the rads who came out 4-10 years ago who tasted the good times and then those who are finishing/just out of training.  
 
When I was a medical student looking into radiology it was at the top of the last bubble. The residents at that time were be inundated with insane job offers. From then until now the economy crashed, jobs evaporated and there have been fundamental shifts in the healthcare system. Yes, that is a let down, but most of us at the end of training are kind of resigned to it. We were born too late.  
 
Those of us at the end of our training don’t feel entitled, we are disillusioned and fearful. I have 300k in educational debt (in-state medical school) at a weighted average interest rate of about 5.5% and essentially zero assets.  My ideal job was always to be in a small to medium sized democratic group where I could help build the business and become an integral part of the local medical community. Not in New York, Chicago, Boston, CA, etc, but within driving distance of my family in flyover country where most of you wouldn’t dream of taking a job. Until 2-3 years ago, this was essentially a given. Now my concern is finding ANY job so I can pay off debt and actually start my adult life.
 
There are a lot of trainees who feel like this, get frustrated, and vent here. I think sometimes the established radiologists group us with the guys they hired 6 years ago at the market peak. If you have been in a group for 15+ years, established roots in your community and have two commas in net worth, it is easy to forget what it is like to be unestablished, broke and fearful.  
 

[Unknown Member]

2bURTON –
You are new here. Some of the references to “entitlement” are to threads over the past year or two. One that sticks in my mind was a guy who was incensed because older radiologists were not forced to retire specifically so that he and his cohorts could have a job. He connected it precisely in this manner: I need a job, so someone should make those old guys retire.
 
That is what is being referred to.  And no, it is not the majority, but it is memorable when you see it.

[medical8]

Quote from Dr.Sardonicus

2bURTON –
You are new here. Some of the references to “entitlement” are to threads over the past year or two. One that sticks in my mind was a guy who was incensed because older radiologists were not forced to retire specifically so that he and his cohorts could have a job. He connected it precisely in this manner: I need a job, so someone should make those old guys retire.

That is what is being referred to.  And no, it is not the majority, but it is memorable when you see it.

 
Actually, I am not that new here. I opened an account about 6 or 7 years ago when I was still a resident and have only began posting more recently after I have gained some “real” experience. I have never tried to hide the fact that I took a crap job in a great area by MY OWN CHOICE. I realize that to stay in “prime” geographic region requires some compromises. My frustration lies in what I am experiencing in my current job as compared to colleagues in other groups in the area. Never mind the fact that I go to tumor board, teach med students/residents, go to conferences, etc and take my share of the late shifts and lots of weekend work.
 
I have worked hard my entire life to get where I am today. I would just like to be acknowledged for what I have done. Hopefully, when the job market improves, I can join a group that values all I have to offer and is not concerned with just their bottom line.

[Unknown Member]

My comments at entitlement weren’t directed at any specific person. They were directed at some who have posted over the past 1-2 years implying that because they had gone to med school and done a residency and fellowship that they should be given a job doing what they wanted , where they wanted. When somebody tells me that older rads need to quit working so that they can get a job in NYC because they refuse to work elsewhere, it smacks of entitlement. I too have been thru rough times finding jobs. I took whatever I could find wherever it was. That is what you do, whining gets you nowhere.
 
I do feel for the younger rads. I freely admit that as far as income goes I have worked thru the golden age. Nobody entering medicine today should expect what was the norm 10 years ago. I think that more the vast majority of the really high paying specialities that they are going to see much leaner times. I wouldn’t even argue that maybe that is fair given the discrepancy between what say we or orthopods make compared to FPs or pediatricians. I do feel blessed that I could do what I have done for the past 30 years.

[jquinones8812_854]

Quote from mattorama

It seems like there are really 3 general groups in this sort of discussion. You have the well established guys, the rads who came out 4-10 years ago who tasted the good times and then those who are finishing/just out of training.  

When I was a medical student looking into radiology it was at the top of the last bubble. The residents at that time were be inundated with insane job offers. From then until now the economy crashed, jobs evaporated and there have been fundamental shifts in the healthcare system. Yes, that is a let down, but most of us at the end of training are kind of resigned to it. We were born too late.  

Those of us at the end of our training don’t feel entitled, we are disillusioned and fearful. I have 300k in educational debt (in-state medical school) at a weighted average interest rate of about 5.5% and essentially zero assets.  My ideal job was always to be in a small to medium sized democratic group where I could help build the business and become an integral part of the local medical community. Not in New York, Chicago, Boston, CA, etc, but within driving distance of my family in flyover country where most of you wouldn’t dream of taking a job. Until 2-3 years ago, this was essentially a given. Now my concern is finding ANY job so I can pay off debt and actually start my adult life.

There are a lot of trainees who feel like this, get frustrated, and vent here. I think sometimes the established radiologists group us with the guys they hired 6 years ago at the market peak. If you have been in a group for 15+ years, established roots in your community and have two commas in net worth, it is easy to forget what it is like to be unestablished, broke and fearful.  

 
Oh, I understand the frustration more than most.  Some people here don’t believe there are out of work new trainees…I know some of them personally.  

The market is horrible.  There is no spinning that.  But what all of us, whether weathered radiologists or new grads, need to realize is it is all a business.  As individuals, the only thing we add is our expertise and knowledge…that is great, but that is not inherently worth anything until the ‘product’ is delivered and paid for. 
 
Doctors are woefully inadequate when it comes to business mentality for the most part.  That is at the real heart of the problem in this thread 
 
I by no means am saying ‘suck it up’.  I am saying we need to understand the reality we live in. 

[drankur88_471]

Quote from MISTRAD

Oh, I understand the frustration more than most.  Some people here don’t believe there are out of work new trainees…I know some of them personally.  

The market is horrible.  There is no spinning that.  But what all of us, whether weathered radiologists or new grads, need to realize is it is all a business.  As individuals, the only thing we add is our expertise and knowledge…that is great, but that is not inherently worth anything until the ‘product’ is delivered and paid for. 

Doctors are woefully inadequate when it comes to business mentality for the most part.  That is at the real heart of the problem in this thread 

I by no means am saying ‘suck it up’.  I am saying we need to understand the reality we live in. 

 
Sure, at the heart of it pretty much everything in life is a business transaction of sorts (I am currently trading a couple of minutes of oral board study time to post this message…for whatever reason I guess I value this more). 
 
I think the unwritten promise of medicine has always been a stable job, a place you are reasonably happy with, doing something interesting, genuinely helping people out for an upper-middle/lower-upper class income.  The cost of this is $300k and a decade of your young adult life after college. Working nights, weekends and holidays during that time as well as for the rest of your career (and things are great for us relative to our surgery colleagues).  The high cost of entry/maintenance is supposed to mitigate the risk of things not working out well.  How else are you going to get a 20 year old to commit to an arduous path that won’t yield rewards until they are 33 years old? It is the same reason long term bonds pay more than short term.  I guess mitigating risk doesn’t eliminate it and seniors/fellows are feeling the downside.
 
Contrast this to business or law where the cost of entry is much, much lower. Their risk is higher but so are the potential rewards.  The lower costs also mean it is easier to change path. I have a friend who started law school at the same time I started medical school. Law didn’t work out the way he wanted so he went to business school. He is now out of business school, has a great job, and is on track to do better than most physicians could ever hope for. In the mean time I am studying for orals and hoping that afterwards, once I begin my job hunt in earnest this summer/fall, I will discover things aren’t as bleak as I thought.  
 
I have been at the national ACR meeting and heard guys giving talks to the whole conference disparage trainees/young rads in the manner I sometimes see here.  It it easy to get upset when you are very concerned about your own future then have “leaders in the field” who paid very little for school, practiced for years through the golden days of high pay/little work and got to invest through the greatest bull market in history get up and call you “entitled” for simply wanting a job with a group that doesn’t intend on exploiting you. A quick property tax search on my phone showed one of the guys saying this stuff owned multi-millions worth of property in the Rockies…ouch.
 
I (and most) don’t begrudge the seasoned rads for their great fortune in life. It just stings when the same people speak down to you when you know you will have to do much more work for a fraction of their overall success…simply for being born later.
 
I appreciate some of the empathetic comments on here.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from mattorama

I have been at the national ACR meeting and heard guys giving talks to the whole conference disparage trainees/young rads in the manner I sometimes see here.  It it easy to get upset when you are very concerned about your own future then have “leaders in the field” who paid very little for school, practiced for years through the golden days of high pay/little work and got to invest through the greatest bull market in history get up and call you “entitled” for simply wanting a job with a group that doesn’t intend on exploiting you. A quick property tax search on my phone showed one of the guys saying this stuff owned multi-millions worth of property in the Rockies…ouch.

I (and most) don’t begrudge the seasoned rads for their great fortune in life. It just stings when the same people speak down to you when you know you will have to do much more work for a fraction of their overall success…simply for being born later.

I have to agree and sympathize with Matto here. 
 
Also ties in with the 70 year olds still working.  Yes, it’s a free country, and yes, you can still work if you really want to.  But IMO it’s a little like insisting on driving a Hummer.  Or procreating like a Duggar and having 19 children. 
 

[Unknown Member]

Question for all you hunger gamers

When you are 50 are you going to step a side and give up your job because someone says you should because they got kids to feed and need your job

WTF

[Unknown Member]

I agree with most of what you say. The problem is that unwritten promise. Who made the promise. I too felt that promise when I started in medicine (back at the time of Galen), but nobody ever really expressed that promise. It was more an assumption on my part. You know what assuming does. We are nowing reaching anew paradigm that promises huge costs to medical education in both dollars and time without the promise of jobs and bucks on the back end. It is a shame that many in training now entered under the old paradigm but are graduating under the new.
 
When comparing law to medicine it much apples vs oranges. On average lawyers make much less than doctors (113k vs 200K), but there is much more variation in law from those making tens or even hundreds of miilion vs those making 40K. Medicine has much less deviation from the mean. Law is much easier to get in and shorter training (3 years post college vs 7 – 11 for medicine).  Where you train is much more important in law than medicine. Law firms are much more pyramdimal than medicine practices.

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

i don’t think anyone here is discussing 50, but gosh, i hope that by 55-60, if all goes well, i can move to 50% (i for one would be willing to help out with weekend coverage and so forth as part of that) and at >65, i really hope to be something along the lines of 20% if that is possible.   but that’s a long ways away and ofcourse, subject to change.  What i now think, would be just unimaginable, is having a lot of money in the bank, seeing complete lack of jobs for those coming out and hanging on at 70.   i just don’t see the point.  in all reality, the best years to do things in retirement are prob from 60-70.  after that, normal aging process kicks in, for some later, for some earlier.  there are few things that can be done at 80 as well as at 70.  

[Unknown Member]

Call me old school but I never really felt that anyone owed me anything. I finished residency during the Hillary scare took the best thing I could find at the time and rolled with it. I never really felt anyone had the obligation to give me their job

5 yrs later new grads were trying to dictate terms to rad groups. Buy ins were less or non existent. Partnership tracts shorter. I don’t remember ever feeling like I got shafted because I came out in a down market

It is what is and we are where we are. Deal with it and move on

[drankur88_471]

Quote from kpack123

Call me old school but I never really felt that anyone owed me anything. I finished residency during the Hillary scare took the best thing I could find at the time and rolled with it. I never really felt anyone had the obligation to give me their job

5 yrs later new grads were trying to dictate terms to rad groups. Buy ins were less or non existent. Partnership tracts shorter. I don’t remember ever feeling like I got shafted because I came out in a down market

It is what is and we are where we are. Deal with it and move on

 
Kpack,
 
[size=”0″]You came out during the potential Hillarycare time, it didn’t come to fruition…Obamacare did. [/size]Did you ever feel/express disappointment in your situation at the time? I, and most, don’t feel like somebody should “give us their job”. Of course we are going to “deal with it and move on”. This is a radiology forum. Of course this is the place where people will come together and vent. Unless you are an emotional zombie, I’m sure you had the same feelings when you were finishing up. Of all people, it seems like you should have at least a little understanding.
 
The part that gets annoying is that we aren’t allowed to express any frustration at the current situation without being talked down to by those who lived through great days of radiology. You worked through the late 90s and 2000s revolution of PACS, CT/MRI. I doubt the current batch of trainees will ever see anything like that.

[julie.young_645]

Quote from mattorama

The part that gets annoying is that we aren’t allowed to express any frustration at the current situation without being talked down to by those who lived through great days of radiology. 

 
Matt, I’m not sure I see where anyone has “talked down” to those in fear of their future, as you have so eloquently expressed it. The negative comments have been toward those whom are called “entitled”, who feel the “old guys” need to step aside and vacate their jobs to allow the young folks in. I won’t “talk down” even to them, as anyone who has successfully completed the medical curriculum, radiology residency, a fellowship, and passed their boards certainly has the potential to be a great radiologist. However, their attitudes will kill them professionally. I can tell you that were we hiring (we are not, for better or worse), and I found that an applicant had expressed this sort of childish behavior, I would rip up their CV in front of them and show them the door. One wouldn’t walk in to GE and suggest that Jeff Immelt take a hike so as to allow the young candidate to occupy his corner suite. It wouldn’t work there, and it shouldn’t work here. I hope you don’t see this as “talking down”…

[drankur88_471]

Quote from DoctorDalai

[size=”0″]Matt, I’m not sure I see where anyone has “talked down” to those in fear of their future, as you have so eloquently expressed it. The negative comments have been toward those whom are called “entitled”, who feel the “old guys” need to step aside and vacate their jobs to allow the young folks in. I won’t “talk down” even to them, as anyone who has successfully completed the medical curriculum, radiology residency, a fellowship, and passed their boards certainly has the potential to be a great radiologist. However, their attitudes will kill them professionally. I can tell you that were we hiring (we are not, for better or worse), and I found that an applicant had expressed this sort of childish behavior, I would rip up their CV in front of them and show them the door. One wouldn’t walk in to GE and suggest that Jeff Immelt take a hike so as to allow the young candidate to occupy his corner suite. It wouldn’t work there, and it shouldn’t work here. I hope you don’t see this as “talking down”… [/size]

 
Fair enough. I have just heard the “entitled” word come up in real life situations where it has been applied to the sort of things I have posted about.  Demanding somebody give you their job is, well, some word that isn’t “entitled”… “crazy” maybe? I may have responded unjustifiably here. Sorry.
 
I wouldn’t, however, compare the situation to someone demanding to be CEO of a major company. In general those people are standouts among standouts, even if it is just in ability to play the political game. In radiology everyone has essentially the same background, the same ability and does the same general job. Yes some are better than others, but I would say 90% of radiologists are interchangeable. The main difference between radiologists is simply year of birth.
 
 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

I’m going to give you a little tough love

You probably don’t want to hear it. You probably think its cold and callous. But in 10-15 years you will realize it is true and the sooner you accept it the better off you will be

Apologies in advance

In the big picture of things the only one who really thinks you are important and irreplaceable is you.

No one really cares about your plight in life except you and your family. No group is going in today’s environment is going to hand you a gem of a job without extracting at least as much or maybe even more flesh from you.

They all have families and responsibilities too. They may be nice or they may not be nice but they aren’t going to give you anything. You may be extremely smart even smarter than them. You may even be a much harder worker. It does not matter that much.

And administrators as well as hospitals are even worse.

So you may as well lookout for yourself find a position suitable enough and do your job with the above mentioned in mind. Because whining or finger pointing wont help

[Unknown Member]

This has nothing to do with Obamacare. If anything we are likely to be marginally better off with it due to increased number of insured. It does have a lot to due with the economic downturn, cuts in pay for imaging driven not by Obamacare but by budgets. Those of us lucky enough to have worked thru the golden age realize that the younger guys are going to have a rough time. You have huge debts, fewer jobs and less chaance to make bigger bucks. I do feel you may end up s***d, it isn’t my fault. Again it is those that have stated that we older guys need to quit to make room, that get my dander up. Nobody owes them anything. To be honest all of life is a crapshoot. Nobody promises that your marriage will last forever. Your health isn’t guaranteed. I too have faced poor job prospects in the mid 90s. Ended taking job paying considerably less than the average pay for even 1st year in partnership today with no chance for it to increase. That is what you do. Spent 5 years marking time until something better came along.

[drankur88_471]

Quote from Raddocmed

This has nothing to do with Obamacare. If anything we are likely to be marginally better off with it due to increased number of insured. It does have a lot to due with the economic downturn, cuts in pay for imaging driven not by Obamacare but by budgets. Those of us lucky enough to have worked thru the golden age realize that the younger guys are going to have a rough time. You have huge debts, fewer jobs and less chaance to make bigger bucks. I do feel you may end up s***d, it isn’t my fault. Again it is those that have stated that we older guys need to quit to make room, that get my dander up. Nobody owes them anything. To be honest all of life is a crapshoot. Nobody promises that your marriage will last forever. Your health isn’t guaranteed. I too have faced poor job prospects in the mid 90s. Ended taking job paying considerably less than the average pay for even 1st year in partnership today with no chance for it to increase. That is what you do. Spent 5 years marking time until something better came along.

 
Without going into if I think the ACA is good or bad, I can’t imagine a group not taking it into account…especially up until the supreme court decision and the last election.  It added a lot of uncertainty to the equation (and still does, but at least we know it is here to stay). I can’t fault a group at all for not expanding when they have no clue what their future business might possibly look like. Conversely, I would be leery of a group who makes business decisions without looking at the big picture. Falling economy, imaging cuts, healthcare overhauls that may or may not happen with unknown consequences. Yikes, perfect storm.

[Unknown Member]

I feel current tax policy and such is incentivizing working less or hiring help.  Every dollar u earn at the high end is worth less and less yet requires the same amount of effort to earn.  A smart group would shift a bit towards improving lifestyle at the cost of some income.  I know the whole golden handcuff phenomenon is out there but I haven’t seen it as much as I thought. 

[btomba_77]

I tell ya’ what, [b]macrophallus[/b]. I am right with you.   

[mario.mtz30_447]

We radiologists as a group are generally geeky and have little interest outside work except Aunt Minnie, reviewing our account statements and avoiding our spouses.  Life expectancy for a U.S. male is 75.  If you’re working at 70, may as well go all the way.
 

[jquinones8812_854]

Quote from macrophallus

I feel current tax policy and such is incentivizing working less or hiring help.  Every dollar u earn at the high end is worth less and less yet requires the same amount of effort to earn.  A smart group would shift a bit towards improving lifestyle at the cost of some income.  I know the whole golden handcuff phenomenon is out there but I haven’t seen it as much as I thought. 

 
Agreed.  I see no reason to work additional shifts anymore, when my after tax benefit is less than 50%. 

[ifra.arif999_474]

Quote from MISTRAD

Agreed.  I see no reason to work additional shifts anymore, when my after tax benefit is less than 50%. 

Agree as well. I’ve been in practice for ten years and initially thought I would work hard for twenty years and then retire. But given recent tax changes, and those likely to occur down the road, my thoughts have changed. I now plan on working at a more moderate pace and enjoy life in the meantime, recognizing this requires retiring at an older age. I have effectively chosen to run a reasonably paced marathon instead of an all out sprint.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Good point, macro, mist and eleg.  I hadn’t thought of that before.  Prob. even more applicable with increasing socialized care.

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

If I had 10 yrs of PP salary under my belt, i would be sitting back pretty and not worrying about what happens knowing all I need is b w 5?and 10 yrs.

[g.giancaspro_108]

Quote from wisdom

If I had 10 yrs of PP salary under my belt, i would be sitting back pretty and not worrying about what happens knowing all I need is b w 5?and 10 yrs.

(In skeptical tone)
Uh-huh.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from sandeep panga

Quote from wisdom

If I had 10 yrs of PP salary under my belt, i would be sitting back pretty and not worrying about what happens knowing all I need is b w 5?and 10 yrs.

(In skeptical tone)
Uh-huh.

Why sarcastic or skeptical of this?  For all we know, Wisdom is the best saver and smartest with money, and is taking in more than any of us.
 
Which reminds me there was some guy on A.M. who was declaring he was able to retire early.  I asked him at least twice to please give us tips on how he was able to do that, but never heard anything.
 
Any rads out there who retired early, please give us a few pearls!
 
 

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

I think the skepticism is because it’s easier said than done.  I came out during the “bad years” where 1 yr to partner and starting high salaries were pretty much done….I can, for myself, say that 20 yrs at average PP salary of 6 yrs ago would allow me to be able to pull the plug.  But this is such an individual decision that has everything to do with what sort of lifestyle you want to live and how good you are at saving money.  Obviously, there is a limit on how much can be saved without expecting 12%/yr return from investments.    And of course if you have kids, how much tutoring they get, private schools, 2nd home, and so forth.
I think the person on here who retired early…well, her/his secret was having a high earning spouse 🙂   give me a rad or ENT or Neurosurg spouse and i can retired in 3 years 🙂
 
 

[Unknown Member]

Which reminds me there was some guy on A.M. who was declaring he was able to retire early.  I asked him at least twice to please give us tips on how he was able to do that, but never heard anything. 
  
Any rads out there who retired early, please give us a few pearls! 
 

 
Understand very very clearly that your nest egg needs to be greater than you think.
10 mill in investments can safely have 4.5% withdrawn per year. That is $450k. BUT, if in an IRA or some tax deferred account, that is ~$300 K per year after taxes. QUICK  – How much have you spent on average every year for the past 5? You MUST know this by heart in order to be informed enough about your own finances to make decisions.
ALSO – understand that the purchasing power of $1 in 10 years will be worth maybe 0.60. 
 
Once you have done this you will have enough fear to begin to save more. 
 
Do not buy the most house you can. It will cost 2x what you think after decorating, maintenance, landscape, etc
Do not put your kids in private school. Buy into a neighborhood with good public schools. Instead……
When your kids are small, try to put the most you can (I think it is now 13K per parent per child.) into a trust fund invested in stocks. By the time mine were twelve, college, grad school, and more were funded.  
Do not have more kids than there are parents. It is expensive, and dilutes the parenting effectiveness. 
Do not buy expensive cars. They are depreciating assets. Keep them for at least 7 years
Make sure you and your wife are on the same page. If you plug one hole in the rowboat, it will be useless if the other passenger is making her hole bigger.
Get a reputable, respected, solid “wealth advisor”. They can look expensive, but the alternative is more expensive. The oldest and largest in town (or even in another town – you can do this long distance) is a reasonable choice, because their clients apparently are satisfied. Believe me you DO NOT want to be devising your own investment strategies. Make sure that their fees are not based on commission, but instead are based on % of assets managed (usually <1%) . So, if you fail, they fail.
 
 
All of the above play into one theme: keep your spending habits such that you are WELL within your means. This helps on both ends: you save significant amounts (we put away between $100 and $150 k a year above the allowed pension contributions). And, you now have spending habits that are comfortable for you to live with in retirement. It is exceedingly difficult to make a 50% cut in spending at any point and will cause a great deal of emotional upheaval in you and your spouse. You will be unable to do this, and you will be a prisoner of your financial requirements.
 
Have multiple interests outside of medicine. It will keep you sane. Spend for the best in your hobby area, but be sure it is something that is still reasonable. I do not recommend polo. I do recommend cycling, photography, golf, skiing, etc. In the latter hobbies, an expenditure of 2-10K per year will get you the best, and you will feel rich.
 
Having a goal like age 55 is fine, but it is only half the battle. If you are serious about this, you will prepare yourself financially as above, you will also prepare yourself emotionally. That means being sure that you have something beyond medicine that you very much want to do in retirement. That means being willing to tolerate the insecurity of no paycheck, and living on investments. (it can be trying when the market is crashing). 
 
I was going to pull the trigger twice before I actually did. Both times, I had what I considered to be enough, and then the market crashed. In 2000, and 2008.  My wife was pushing me aggressively to quit, and I was resisting because of fear of failing financially. Then I realized that if I waited until I was 100% sure that I could not fail (financially), then I would be dead before I retired. I also realized that among those I knew who had quit, not one of them, not one, regretted the decision. It seems that the life on the other side was much more pleasant than what I was living. And it is. I now can watch the grand drama of radiology playing out in front of me with a touch of bemusement. But there is mostly sadness to see what was once great hurled into such turmoil. Fortunately, it is not defining my life now. 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

I’m part time. I enjoy the time off and the no more administrative responsibilities. The biggest hassles I have faced have been insurance issues. Both Health and obtaining and maintaining Malpractice coverage

Insurance companies are evil

[mario.mtz30_447]

Great post, Rolfrad. Thank you so much for the advice. Congratulations on your successful retirement.

[Unknown Member]

Must keep a balance between enjoying life now and planning for the future. I knew a radiologist that worked all the time and took no vacation. He had a solid plan to retire at the age of 60 and would then travel and do all the things he enjoyed. At the age of 58 he was diagnosed with ca and was dead a 58 and 6 months. True story. There is alot of good living to do when you are young.

[Unknown Member]

Take heart all ye younger brethern. It can be OK. I am 60. This year I go to 50% working with rest of time in already purchased 2nd home which will be retirement home. I plan to work 2-5 years at 50% as I see fit and need money for major travel (such as 4 weeks in NZ, Australia). This was done with spending 1/2 of medical career in either military or academics. There is no reason that if you maximize your pension plans that you couldn’t retire after 20 years. The biggest problem to retiring now is actually affording health insurance.

[Unknown Member]

I am 58 and just went 3/4 time.  I anticipate I will continue part time work until about 65.
 
I will have a comfortable retirement despite having worked in a relatively low paid area and having paid many years of EXCESSIVE child support.
 
I wish the young people the best of luck.  I still think Radiology is a good career.  I think more jobs will be available in the future as the boomers start to retire – and get sicker.
 
Hang in there

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

$10 million is a huge/very large nest egg, that most people who are coming out of fellowship today, without the benefit of a high earning spouse, will not be able to reach in 20 years without significant, constant market appreciation. I would say that bar is probably too high. Needing $300,000 a year to. Retire on is also probably not necessary for most people. Heck, I don't live in anywhere near that right now. I think that kind of number upfront would basically say to a lot of us, this can't be reasonably done.

I also disagree that having a professional money manager who keeps 1% of total assets is a good idea. The higher up you go in your nest egg, the more that 1% becomes. What is the greatest strategy? Very hard to know. But only have a money manager if he consistently can beat the long-term averages. Otherwise, maybe take one half of that money and. Have it professionally managed. Take the other one half and put it in ETFs was something that has a .1 or .2% cost.

Of course, this is an entirely different subject matter now When it comes to investing and there probably is no ideal or perfectly right way to do it.

Which reminds me there was some guy on A.M. who was declaring he was able to retire early.  I asked him at least twice to please give us tips on how he was able to do that, but never heard anything. 
 
Any rads out there who retired early, please give us a few pearls! 

Understand very very clearly that your nest egg needs to be greater than you think.
10 mill in investments can safely have 4.5% withdrawn per year. That is $450k. BUT, if in an IRA or some tax deferred account, that is ~$300 K per year after taxes. QUICK  - How much have you spent on average every year for the past 5? You MUST know this by heart in order to be informed enough about your own finances to make decisions.
ALSO – understand that the purchasing power of $1 in 10 years will be worth maybe 0.60. 

Once you have done this you will have enough fear to begin to save more. 

Do not buy the most house you can. It will cost 2x what you think after decorating, maintenance, landscape, etc
Do not put your kids in private school. Buy into a neighborhood with good public schools. Instead……
When your kids are small, try to put the most you can (I think it is now 13K per parent per child.) into a trust fund invested in stocks. By the time mine were twelve, college, grad school, and more were funded.  
Do not have more kids than there are parents. It is expensive, and dilutes the parenting effectiveness. 
Do not buy expensive cars. They are depreciating assets. Keep them for at least 7 years
Make sure you and your wife are on the same page. If you plug one hole in the rowboat, it will be useless if the other passenger is making her hole bigger.
Get a reputable, respected, solid "wealth advisor". They can look expensive, but the alternative is more expensive. The oldest and largest in town (or even in another town – you can do this long distance) is a reasonable choice, because their clients apparently are satisfied. Believe me you DO NOT want to be devising your own investment strategies. Make sure that their fees are not based on commission, but instead are based on % of assets managed (usually <1%) . So, if you fail, they fail.

All of the above play into one theme: keep your spending habits such that you are WELL within your means. This helps on both ends: you save significant amounts (we put away between $100 and $150 k a year above the allowed pension contributions). And, you now have spending habits that are comfortable for you to live with in retirement. It is exceedingly difficult to make a 50% cut in spending at any point and will cause a great deal of emotional upheaval in you and your spouse. You will be unable to do this, and you will be a prisoner of your financial requirements.

Have multiple interests outside of medicine. It will keep you sane. Spend for the best in your hobby area, but be sure it is something that is still reasonable. I do not recommend polo. I do recommend cycling, photography, golf, skiing, etc. In the latter hobbies, an expenditure of 2-10K per year will get you the best, and you will feel rich.

Having a goal like age 55 is fine, but it is only half the battle. If you are serious about this, you will prepare yourself financially as above, you will also prepare yourself emotionally. That means being sure that you have something beyond medicine that you very much want to do in retirement. That means being willing to tolerate the insecurity of no paycheck, and living on investments. (it can be trying when the market is crashing). 

I was going to pull the trigger twice before I actually did. Both times, I had what I considered to be enough, and then the market crashed. In 2000, and 2008.  My wife was pushing me aggressively to quit, and I was resisting because of fear of failing financially. Then I realized that if I waited until I was 100% sure that I could not fail (financially), then I would be dead before I retired. I also realized that among those I knew who had quit, not one of them, not one, regretted the decision. It seems that the life on the other side was much more pleasant than what I was living. And it is. I now can watch the grand drama of radiology playing out in front of me with a touch of bemusement. But there is mostly sadness to see what was once great hurled into such turmoil. Fortunately, it is not defining my life now. 

[btomba_77]

$10 million is a huge/very large nest egg, that most people who are coming out of fellowship today, without the benefit of a high earning spouse, will not be able to reach in 20 years without significant, constant market appreciation. I would say that bar is probably too high. Needing $300,000 a year to. Retire on is also probably not necessary for most people. Heck, I don’t live in anywhere near that right now. I think that kind of number upfront would basically say to a lot of us, this can’t be reasonably done.

I also disagree that having a professional money manager who keeps 1% of total assets is a good idea. The higher up you go in your nest egg, the more that 1% becomes. What is the greatest strategy? Very hard to know. But only have a money manager if he consistently can beat the long-term averages. Otherwise, maybe take one half of that money and. Have it professionally managed. Take the other one half and put it in ETFs was something that has a .1 or .2% cost.

 
Agree with both of these points.  If you need $10mil to retire you have a *much* higher level of lifestyle than mine.
 
I started my careeer with a financial advisor.   It was a good way to impose regular discipline and to keep myself from making mistakes or panicking with my money when I had limited financial literacy.
 
But over the years I have studied, simplified and become a Boglehead.   I save 50% of every paycheck (we live cheap), dollar cost average every month into low cost mutual funds, I don’t move stuff around beyond periodic rebalancing.
 
Remember the old addage:  “It’s not about timin’ the market. It’s about time in the market.”
 
 
Barring a big bear market I shoud be on track for part time at 50, and 20-30% only at 60.  (Yes, it will be with significantly less than $10mil, but I can accept that. 🙂  )

[mario.mtz30_447]

OK, Dergon, read just a little about Bogleheads.  I think basically I became a Boglehead over time without trying to.  Have all these diversified allocations built up over the years.  Don’t sell much at all.  Was painful during the last crash but was hands off, holding onto belief in long term.  I’ve known about wealth managers for years, and a number of my colleagues use them.  I can’t give a specific reason why I haven’t jumped aboard.  Maybe something to do with my MBA relative who knows so much more about stocks and the market, has a financial blog…  but totally sucks at picking stocks!  I’m still peeved at him after buying one of his recommendations and became worthless, yes went down to zero, in 3 years!  And a bunch of other so called experts that seem to fall on their faces!
 
 

[btomba_77]

Quote from IGotKids2Feed

OK, Dergon, read just a little about Bogleheads.  I think basically I became a Boglehead over time without trying to.  Have all these diversified allocations built up over the years.  Don’t sell much at all.  Was painful during the last crash but was hands off, holding onto belief in long term.  I’ve known about wealth managers for years, and a number of my colleagues use them.  I can’t give a specific reason why I haven’t jumped aboard.  Maybe something to do with my MBA relative who knows so much more about stocks and the market, has a financial blog…  but totally sucks at picking stocks!  I’m still peeved at him after buying one of his recommendations and became worthless, yes went down to zero, in 3 years!  And a bunch of other so called experts that seem to fall on their faces!

 
If you’re the kind of person who can stick to a plan despite negative or volatile market conditions, the Jack Bogle method is great.  When the run up to 2007 came I was in an agreessive growth mode  portfolio with a 20 year horizon investing 30% or my salary monthly . When the market crashed in 2008 I did nothing different, except for I had paid off my mortgage in full and had more money freed up for investment so I increased to 50ish%.  I kept on putting in $$ even as the DOW plummetted.  Now we’re testing all-time highs and …… nothing different.    I am starting to slowly rebalance to slightly less agressive stance, but the basics of “keep costs low, diversify, keep an eye on taxes, buy indexes, don’t try to time the market” all hold.

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

Agree on dollar cost averaging

My attempts to time the market have been between mildly successful to very unsuccessful. Meaning selling at a peak but not getting in at the bottom and sitting on cash for long periods of time as market rises.
The market will cool off in the next. 4 mo. How much or for how long ? Impossible to tell I don’t think.

[medical8]

Quote from Rolf Rad

Which reminds me there was some guy on A.M. who was declaring he was able to retire early.  I asked him at least twice to please give us tips on how he was able to do that, but never heard anything. 
 
Any rads out there who retired early, please give us a few pearls! 

Understand very very clearly that your nest egg needs to be greater than you think.
10 mill in investments can safely have 4.5% withdrawn per year. That is $450k. BUT, if in an IRA or some tax deferred account, that is ~$300 K per year after taxes. QUICK  – How much have you spent on average every year for the past 5? You MUST know this by heart in order to be informed enough about your own finances to make decisions.
ALSO – understand that the purchasing power of $1 in 10 years will be worth maybe 0.60. 

Once you have done this you will have enough fear to begin to save more. 

Do not buy the most house you can. It will cost 2x what you think after decorating, maintenance, landscape, etc
Do not put your kids in private school. Buy into a neighborhood with good public schools. Instead……
When your kids are small, try to put the most you can (I think it is now 13K per parent per child.) into a trust fund invested in stocks. By the time mine were twelve, college, grad school, and more were funded.  
Do not have more kids than there are parents. It is expensive, and dilutes the parenting effectiveness. 
Do not buy expensive cars. They are depreciating assets. Keep them for at least 7 years
Make sure you and your wife are on the same page. If you plug one hole in the rowboat, it will be useless if the other passenger is making her hole bigger.
Get a reputable, respected, solid “wealth advisor”. They can look expensive, but the alternative is more expensive. The oldest and largest in town (or even in another town – you can do this long distance) is a reasonable choice, because their clients apparently are satisfied. Believe me you DO NOT want to be devising your own investment strategies. Make sure that their fees are not based on commission, but instead are based on % of assets managed (usually <1%) . So, if you fail, they fail.

All of the above play into one theme: keep your spending habits such that you are WELL within your means. This helps on both ends: you save significant amounts (we put away between $100 and $150 k a year above the allowed pension contributions). And, you now have spending habits that are comfortable for you to live with in retirement. It is exceedingly difficult to make a 50% cut in spending at any point and will cause a great deal of emotional upheaval in you and your spouse. You will be unable to do this, and you will be a prisoner of your financial requirements.

Have multiple interests outside of medicine. It will keep you sane. Spend for the best in your hobby area, but be sure it is something that is still reasonable. I do not recommend polo. I do recommend cycling, photography, golf, skiing, etc. In the latter hobbies, an expenditure of 2-10K per year will get you the best, and you will feel rich.

Having a goal like age 55 is fine, but it is only half the battle. If you are serious about this, you will prepare yourself financially as above, you will also prepare yourself emotionally. That means being sure that you have something beyond medicine that you very much want to do in retirement. That means being willing to tolerate the insecurity of no paycheck, and living on investments. (it can be trying when the market is crashing). 

 
After reading this, all I can say is wow! I would fire your wealth manager immediately. Us younger rads can definitely learn from some of the older rads, how not to lose your fortunes. As they say… History is doomed to repeat itself unless we learn from our past mistakes.
 
By the time i retire, hopefully around age 65. My 2 kids will be out of college and independent, hopefully, my house will be paid off. Without a mortgage and college tuition, my expenses should be much less then $290K quoted on this forum. I live in NYC suburb with some of the highest taxes in the county. Even then, my taxes may be up to $50K/yr. If I sell my home and downsize, my real estate taxes will decrease, as well as my cost to run my home, ie gas/electric. Having autos paid off will also help. Budgeting $2K/mo for food and incidentals, plus another $2K housing expenses, leaves you about $50K/yr food and shelter. What you do the rest of the time is up to you. An additional 100K to travel, cover incidentals and make purchases seems adequate to me. That makes a budget of about $150K per year. Assuming your house appreciates over 30 years, which historically they almost always do. Buying a smaller house for less money is another source of retirement funds.
 
Be smart with your money, and the world is your oyster. Us younger rads truly do have advantage in avoiding the mistake of golden handcuffs that affect so many. Kudos to the older rads, who made sound decisions and are able to retire or work part-time. My apologies to those that have to work to pay their bills.
 
As far as wealth managers, or “Banksters” as I like to call them, I would try to avoid them. All they do is chew up portion of your profit. I can almost guarantee every doctor is smarter then most wealth managers. These guys don’t have doctorate in finance. U would be lucky to find one with a Masters degree. Do your own homework, and learn how to invest, it is not that difficult. Be in control of your own destiny. The more I learn, the more I realize that there is no quick or easy way to make money investing. Anyone promising u otherwise is lying. Ask your wealth adviser if they offer a guarantee, that if they lose any of your money, based on their reccs, they will pay you back out of their own pocket.
 
Search on youtube for the interview John Stewart had a few years back with Jim Kramer, where he ripped him a new one, for basically contributing to the collapse of the market and loss of fortunes by average investors like you and me.

[btomba_77]

Speaking of Kramer- I heard an academic study about how the best way to play him is: Any stock that is mentioned on his show wait a couple of days, then short it.
 
The stocks tend to spike after he talks about them and then settle back to baseline in the following months:
 

[b][b][size=”2″]Abstract: [/size][/b] [/b]   
[size=”2″]We use the popular television show Mad Money hosted by Jim Cramer to test theories of attention and limits to arbitrage. Stock recommendations on Mad Money constitute attention shocks to a large audience of individual traders. We find that stock recommendations lead to large overnight returns which subsequently reverse over the next few months. The spike-reversal pattern is strongest among small, illiquid stocks that are hard-to-arbitrage. Using daily Nielsen ratings as a direct measure of attention, we find the overnight return is strongest when high income viewership is high. We also find weak price effects among sell recommendations. Taken together, the evidence supports the retail attention hypothesis of Barber and Odean (2008) and illustrates the potential role of media in generating mispricing.

[/size] 
  
  
  (ps- for those of you reading this for basic personal finance advice,  this is *not* a strategy I recommend …. it is meant merely to show how many snake oil salesmen are out there)
 

[size=”2″](( oh — and here’s the daily show link with Stewart ripping Kramer a new one:  [link=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/12/jim-cramer-on-daily-show-_n_174503.html]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/12/jim-cramer-on-daily-show-_n_174503.html[/link] ))[/size]

[aaishafatima999_432]

 
Agree. Muni bonds good for states and US as a whole, should keep tax free status. Still, it is a WH plank.
I am opposed.
Plan to let my Sen./Rep. know my opinion.
Won’t waste time calling WH.

[aaishafatima999_432]

Anybody notice the Cyprus tax on bank deposits as ordered by the EU chiefs? 6.5%—10% based on deposits.
Instituted over the weekend w/ a bank holiday today.
Run on banks now.
Govt strategy/EU strategy.

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

Most of the money in Cyprus banks is RUSSIAN money (if not most, at least 40% of that money is laundered oligarch money and the EU has no desire to bail out russian oligarchs) 

There is NO parallel between EU politics with respect to cyprus and the current situation in the US.  I can’t quite figure out why it is being brought up
 
You might as well comment on Kenyan elections, Zimbabwe elections and the new constitution and draw parallels between those and the US system.  

[Unknown Member]

Excellent post but I am curious about how a financial adviser adds value. 

[btomba_77]

Quote from bcovert

Excellent post but I am curious about how a financial adviser adds value. 

 
A financial adviser can do some things for some people.
 
A [i]good[/i] adviser can help a novice develop a diversified portfolio, can give reasoned advice to help a client stick to a long term strategy, counsel against panic selling & attempted market timing, and help with some of the complexities around tax implications etc.  
 
As I said earlier in this thread, I had an adviser in my early years just out of training.    He was decent guy and didn’t steer me wrong.     
 
But most people can, with only a modicum of effort, learn the basics of investing and personal finance.  The DIY method can save you 1% per year returns in fees … not to mention even more fees if your adviser steers you into high cost investment vehicles because he gets a kick back for it.
 
So even if you get one of the good guys you still are losing money in the long run.  A very very few are going to be able to outperform the market in the long run, especially not after their fees are taken out.   And then if you happen to get a bad one (either incompetent or greedy or both) your portfolio can underperform dramaticallly and cost you literally millions over a lifetime.
 
I now recommend everyone just open a low cost brokerage account (vanguard, Schwab, Fideltiy, etc) , buy lost cost index funds, and do monthly investing.   They’ll be better off over time than if they had paid a financial adviser.  
 
 

[Unknown Member]

I agree with indexing and do it myself. The real return of the market is my main concern. 2000-2010 was a lost decade! NO real return. I made less than 3% per year before inflation and capital gains tax. This throws a wrench into Rolf Rads calculations. The average for the history of the stock market is 6% real return. There are many 10 and 20 year periods less than that. My time frame is probably another 20 years in if that.

[Unknown Member]

It can be fun to play around with individual stocks, but I keep that to less than 10% of my money. The bulk in low cost index funds.
 
For example, the biotech sector is pretty interesting to me, especially with immunotherapy for oncology, which could be the way we treat all cancers in 10 years. This is stuff I read about and can understand the science.
 
I believe there are seismic shifts that occur from time to time in various areas and its fun to invest in a few names you think may be the leaders. 
 
I guess it is just another hobby for me, I don’t count on it making me rich or anything.

[drankur88_471]

Quote from Raddocmed

I agree with most of what you say. The problem is that unwritten promise. Who made the promise. I too felt that promise when I started in medicine (back at the time of Galen), but nobody ever really expressed that promise. It was more an assumption on my part. You know what assuming does. We are nowing reaching anew paradigm that promises huge costs to medical education in both dollars and time without the promise of jobs and bucks on the back end. It is a shame that many in training now entered under the old paradigm but are graduating under the new.

When comparing law to medicine it much apples vs oranges. On average lawyers make much less than doctors (113k vs 200K), but there is much more variation in law from those making tens or even hundreds of miilion vs those making 40K. Medicine has much less deviation from the mean. Law is much easier to get in and shorter training (3 years post college vs 7 – 11 for medicine).  Where you train is much more important in law than medicine. Law firms are much more pyramdimal than medicine practices.

 
Absolutely. Nobody “made” the promise…hence I called it unwritten. It has overall been like that since the start of modern medicine.   Relatively few people are both willing and able to pay the initial cost to become physicians so naturally supply is somewhat limited for a service that is in huge demand = solid reward. Combining history with basic economics, [size=”0″]I think it was a pretty rational position for both you and I in our respective college days to assume things would continue as such. Of course it wasn’t ever a [/size]guarantee[size=”0″]. It worked out very well for you. Things aren’t looking nearly so great for me, but who knows what the future will bring. [/size]
 
It sounds like you agree with what I said about law. I was just speaking to the cost/risk/reward structure like I did about medicine. Law and business have a fairly low cost of entry. There is a higher risk (you might be making 40k when you didn’t want that kind of job), but high potential reward as partners in giant firms have the potential to make millions. Law firms are hugely pyramidal, but they start working at 24/25 years old, not 33.  I personally considered going into law to do patent work… at 32 I would either be partner at a big firm around now or in-house with some big corporation if the firm didn’t work out. Instead, I still have a little over a year of training to do at half the salary of a 1st year law associate (24 year old). Business is probably even higher risk but comes with an essentially unlimited upside.  In medicine you pay a huge upfront cost for an essentially guaranteed solid job, but with a more limited (but still great by any reasonable measure) income potential. As a bonus, you don’t have to sell your soul to be a doctor, just your young adulthood. 🙂
 
It sounds like we are pretty much on the same page.  I still genuinely enjoy medicine/radiology. As long as I can find a group where the senior partners aren’t trying to screw me over, I will be content. It will still be a cool job making more than anyone in my extended family has ever made. I expect to have the screws turned by the government and insurance companies. If it wanted that from my senior colleagues, I would have gone into law.

[Unknown Member]

My use of entitlement refers to the large number of posts here mainly by new grads that are screaming about not being able to get a job, but admitting that they will only consider a small geographic area. I understand a desire to work in a particular area, but that just isn’t always pratical. I keep hearing about all these old guys that do nothing and make a buttload. I have never seen that in PP. In academics yes PP no. Every group that I have been associated with won’t tolerate shucking work. I will admit that some times a few of the older guys with more business savvy and professional contacts get some time for the business of running a group, but just as frequently that is all done on their free time when many newbies are home playing with the kids  because they aren’t on any hospital com., negoiating contracts, etc. I will be honest that I have never met an 80 yo active rad, but if someone wanted to work that long and maintained competence and work ethic who are you to tell them they can’t? I fully plan to retire before 65. I would have retired at 60 if the recession had never hit. My retirement funds are just now getting back to where they were 5 years ago.

[Unknown Member]

Great post mattorama- disillusioned and fearful would describe many folks from my program.
 
-Kablammo

[suyanebenevides_151]

There is no doubt that a majority of people forget about their former statuses [i][b]as well as[/b][/i] think of their former training or how “things used to be” as so much harder, different, or challenging. I think people do this in order to balance the dissonance and justify their current position; even moreso for those that were lucky enough to be part of the golden generation of radiology which is appearing more and more to be just a blip on the radar or aberration.
 
I recently had a conversation with a rad that has been practicing for the last 15-20 years. I was appalled when she suggested that “cuts have always been happening” and seemingly made parallel to now vs. her days of training and practice. I can’t think of a better example. She was basically in  the heyday of radiology (save for those that were originals who made hay from the 60s all the way til now) and didn’t seem to be grateful when compared to someone in my position, 200-300k loans, decreasing reimbursements, hard job market, more work, etc.
 
What gets us young people is the drastic, coming changes that are obvious vs. how hard it was to get here, loans, and perhaps most of all, expectations when we applied.
 
Why should we feel bad at all for people who were gifted a gravy train era and blew their money like pimps, or at least live beyond their means?
 
I don’t need to make that much money. I know I won’t be able to make 500k – 1 mil unless I do some business ventures. I just don’t want to work like a dawg and get sued given these realities. What about the obvious eventualities written on the wall do the mid-older generation not understand that make us disillusioned?
 
We’ve seen how it was in your shoes. Look at it once from our point of view and maybe this can be a true 2-way convo.

[btomba_77]

Well…. I’m going to try do my part.
 
Part time at 50 and out at 60!  (or maybe down to 20-30% just to stave off the Alzheimer’s)
 
 
 

[drankur88_471]

Quote from kpack123

I’m going to give you a little tough love

You probably don’t want to hear it. You probably think its cold and callous. But in 10-15 years you will realize it is true and the sooner you accept it the better off you will be

Apologies in advance

In the big picture of things the only one who really thinks you are important and irreplaceable is you.

No one really cares about your plight in life except you and your family. No group is going in today’s environment is going to hand you a gem of a job without extracting at least as much or maybe even more flesh from you.

They all have families and responsibilities too. They may be nice or they may not be nice but they aren’t going to give you anything. You may be extremely smart even smarter than them. You may even be a much harder worker. It does not matter that much.

And administrators as well as hospitals are even worse.

So you may as well lookout for yourself find a position suitable enough and do your job with the above mentioned in mind. Because whining or finger pointing wont help

 
I have never considered myself a special snowflake. Ultimately I will just be another gear in the medical machinery. I don’t expect anybody to hand me anything (did I ever say or even imply that?). I know that most people in the world couldn’t care less what happens to me and my family one way or another.
 
The only thing I have ever taken offense to is the coldness and callousness of those I soon hope to call peers/coworkers/partners. I really hope I don’t become like that.

[ljohnson_509]

“If I had 10 yrs of PP salary under my belt, i would be sitting back pretty and not worrying about what happens knowing all I need is b w 5?and 10 yrs.”
 
No.  I think the average radiologist is on track to retire in his grave even with years of PP salary.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from birads

“If I had 10 yrs of PP salary under my belt, i would be sitting back pretty and not worrying about what happens knowing all I need is b w 5?and 10 yrs.”

No.  I think the average radiologist is on track to retire in his grave even with years of PP salary.

So what about the 97% of the population that makes less money?  Does this mean no one can retire?
 
If you can’t retire at 65 or before as a radiologist, there’s something seriously wrong.  You can keep transfusing but you gotta stop the bleeding first.  Stand up to your wife.  Show her who’s boss.  No more Nordstrom, bad doggie.

[ljohnson_509]

Most people retire on SS.  I do not think most radiologists want to retire like that nor can they – golden handcuffs lifestyle, wives, bad investments and advisers, houses, kids-college and adult support, etc.

[aaishafatima999_432]

There is an inflection point on the graph for disincentivizing extra work. I estimate it for myself at 50-55% to taxes and 45% net income.
Most of us in US with state taxes/local taxes/sales taxes/ property tax/’wealth taxes’ are at 55-65% now but do not realize it much of the time (ie sales taxes are absorbed without much consternation). Current powers in Wash DC and state capitals across the US want to tax even more. I disagree. Cut spending at the govt level.  I used to grab the extra weekend work, extra call, holidays, OT etc. No anymore. Esp. since 1/1/13.
Consider me among the working less and enjoying it more.

[aaishafatima999_432]

Others in my group doing the same. But still no move to hire.
Interesting…not sure why or how this works yet. But I do sympathize with the new grads, that has got to be very difficult and disconcerting. I was among them to some extent in 1994 and so worked like a hungry dog 24/7/365.
 
Still, economically, and politically they do not get it, so my sympathies are limited and honestly do not keep me up at night.

[Unknown Member]

All this paints a depressing picture for the life of the older radiologist. Tell me it has to get better before I slump over at my dictaphone, dead.

[Unknown Member]

I say if anyone is happy and good doing their work, all the more power to them. There’s been many a wise man’s saying about loving your work and doing it with your might.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Weekendwarrior

All this paints a depressing picture for the life of the older radiologist. Tell me it has to get better before I slump over at my dictaphone, dead.

Take heart, warrior.  It can already be better than that.  Observe those you don’t want to end up like, and learn from them.  Choose your mate carefully.  Someone that would rather actually be with you, rather than off making money for her (or him).  Someone that will raise your kids to have common sense and independent, lest you end up with adult children that can’t take care of themselves.  Preferably someone that doesn’t have a great desire “to be seen” and do the expensive social scene.  Be skeptical of investment proposals from fellow radiologists.  More often than not, you will lose money if you go along with these.  Save as much as you can for retirement from day one.  The more time, the better.  Maybe even ask the elderly rads you know now that financially are forced to work, ask them what they would have done differently.  At least these are the things I try to do.  I really do not want to work past 60, preferably retire at 58 if I can.  One can never predict what will happen, all the best laid plans can go awry.  But at least I’m trying and enjoying myself along the way.

[julie.young_645]

Quote from wisdom

…
I think the person on here who retired early…well, her/his secret was having a high earning spouse 🙂   give me a rad or ENT or Neurosurg spouse and i can retired in 3 years 🙂

 
One of my partners is married to a high-earning physician…we joke that his wife makes what the other wives spend…

[suyanebenevides_151]

Given the current state of taxation and opportunity cost of time + stress, what salary do you think gives the biggest bang for your buck?
 
I’m not interested in making tons of money, because I won’t be able to unless I start a business. I’m just wondering what you guys think is the threshold of “worth it”
 
thanks

[Unknown Member]

If your single under 400K without a doubt married 450

[mario.mtz30_447]

Thank you Ben, Dergon, Wisdom, Raddoc.  Really appreciate the different opinions here.  Great discussion. 
As far as health insurance 60 to 65, depending on which state you’re in, Raddoc, picture should be a little clearer come October when we will get our first working look at the different states’ health exchanges.  At least you will be able to more easily shop on a single site and determine what you’re up against as far as monthly premium.  I was not a big fan of ObamaCare but the more I’m reading about it, there are some parts of it I think are an improvement.  What I like about the idea of health exchanges is a level playing field with more transparency and state-approved minimium requirements, so you know you’re at least getting adequate coverage. 
Dergon, just looking up what a Boglehead is now…  interesting.
By the way, I’m going through a book called “The ObamaCare Survival Guide” by Nick Tate.  I think it’s explaining things very well, so far. 
 

[btomba_77]

Well… when you live in Cleveland where a 2500ftsq condo costs $180k ( + a 10 year property taxabatement) it’s not quite as impressive 😉

[mario.mtz30_447]

That’s one of my problems.  I live in CA.

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

Well it’s not just a matter of whether you’re paying much higher cost. If you can get alpreciation somehow, then it doesn’t really matter so much. Even if there isn’t that much appreciation, living in a part of the country that makes you way more happy may be worth it. Now, how much happier you will be in California as opposed to Cleveland Really depends on family, when you go up and so forth.

[aaishafatima999_432]

I think Mr. Bogle recommended low cost index funds (ie Vanguard funds, a company he founded based on that principle) for the long term as one of  the main (if not the main) pillar of his philosophy. 
Have been satisfied with my investment plan without financial professional advice. Couple of times I paid for it as a fee only set up, did this once every 4 years or so, to see if I was missing something, and they essentially said, keep doing what you are doing…except one tried to sell me an annuity (!)
 
I read IBD/Investor’s Business Daily, Barron’s, and follow internet sites like CNBC and Fox business site. Read a lot of books, like Mr. Bogle’s latest. Could retire anytime. Expenses low.
RolfRad had a pretty good summary but I differ on one main point: ‘Do not have more kids than there are parents. It is expensive, and dilutes the parenting effectiveness.’
I do not see children as a debit. Mine have added so much, and I really regret working so hard when younger and not spending more time with them then. Lucky for me, my wife compensated for me then and they are all doing well. Also, single children/obligatory 2 kids may have TOO much assets and this can be worse than a bit of scarcity…have seen rads with 8 kids and everyone could not be happier… the effectiveness parent ratio depends on the family, not on the $.
Just my thoughts. Otherwise, the consensus strategies and comments above are pretty darn solid, in my view.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Thanks for encouragement, Wisdom.  Hopefully when we sell our home, our home will have been a good major investment.  I can’t really see us being able to pay off our mortgage but at least we are not under water on our home like a number of colleagues that purchased here between 2003 and 2007.
 
MSK:  Actually am starting to look into annuities.  The guaranteed income seems attractive to me and may provide some comfort from the fear of outliving retirement savings.  An example is pledging to give 100K to my alma mater or another charitable organization.  When both my wife and I die, they get the 100K and in the meantime, we get a fixed amount, say $7000 per year as long as we are alive, which is much greater than we could get in interest, at least nowadays.  I don’t really understand annuities, but am learning more.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from dergon

Well… when you live in Cleveland where a 2500ftsq condo costs $180k ( + a 10 year property taxabatement) it’s not quite as impressive 😉

Oops, sorry, I think I mistakenly hit manage message instead of edit message.  Anyway, this reply from Dergon is from my immediately preceding post when I congratulated him on paying off his mortgage.  I can imagine what a great feeling it is to not have a mortgage!

[Unknown Member]

someone was questioning the number of 10 Mill
 
Here is how it is arrived at in reverse:
 
our expenditures are about 290k/year. 
our taxes take about 35% of our money every year.
so 290/(1 – 0.35) = 446
the “safe withdrawal rate” usually quoted as 4 to 5%
So 446/.045 = 9.9 mill
 
Now, the safe withdrawal rate is a rate that, when backtested against historic performance of the S&P and some average bond fund, resulted in successful retirements regardless of what year you started (from like 1915 or so forward). This means that the funds never ran out. 
 
You CAN of course take out more, but if you backtest these, for every increase of .5%, there is an increasing chance of running out of money. And, I would maintain that we live in unprecedented uncertain times, so conservatism is warranted here. 
 
And, to the comment about living (somewhat) for today, I couldn’t agree more. That is why I was saying take a hobby or two and throw money at it. BUT – I have seen people go way overboard on this, and want the absolute best of everything, with the result that they would have no savings. As noted above, we have saved well, but most would say we live very nicely, not just at the top 1% level. Top 15% is just fine.
 
IGOT: 
I don’t think of a home as an investment – period. It is an expense. You will NEVER live off of the profits from a house. THink of this: when you sell the house, you will (unless you are dead) need some other place to live. Generally, you will want to live in a similar quality house. So the house you buy will have a similar price to the one you just sold. (perhaps less 20% for less square footage). You will have to pay 7% realtor fees, but more importantly, you will have paid interest and maintenance, and property taxes. Last year, we had a 30K roof put on. We have had to replace carpet, furnaces, etc. If you are honest and make a spreadsheet of your expenses vs the sale price, you will pretty much always be in the hole. There will be no profit to pay for other living expenses. 
 
Re: annuities. I cannot go into detail here, but have read about them in the past, and the abstract is that they are shit investments. The insurance companies will do everything possible to obscure this fact, and confuse the issue. 
 
If you want to read more in depth, I would suggest reading Motley fool. 
 
 
 
 

[Unknown Member]

In medicine most people work at least about 50-60 hours a week from age 20. Don’t you guys think if you retire, you will get bored?
I mean, if you retire at the age of 50, your spare time will become 10-20 times more of what you have now. Do you have enough things to do in the long run? It may seem great at first, but what about after 2 years? Don’t you miss what you have done in the last 30 years? I agree that working may be exhausting at times, but aren’t there some great aspects to what we do, at least from our perspective?

[Unknown Member]

Quote from rads333

In medicine most people work at least about 50-60 hours a week from age 20. Don’t you guys think if you retire, you will get bored?
I mean, if you retire at the age of 50, your spare time will become 10-20 times more of what you have now. Do you have enough things to do in the long run? It may seem great at first, but what about after 2 years? Don’t you miss what you have done in the last 30 years? I agree that working may be exhausting at times, but aren’t there some great aspects to what we do, at least from our perspective?

my first reaction was “are you serious”? I have many more things to do than I can get done in this lifetime. Radiology is (was) one of them. Mastered that. Now is time to do the other things. 
Then I thought about some of my radiology colleagues who truly seem a little lost if given a blank slate. And I can see that some would be. Some do seem to require a schedule given to them by someone to tell them where to be and what to do. Not me.
 
There are innumerable things to do with your time. Innumerable. 
Exercise, do photography, learn how to paint, write a book. Read books. Learn woodworking, learn a subject that you don’t know. This can be (psychology, math, art history, engineering, astronomy, marketing, website programming, and on and on and on). Spend more time with your aged parents (if they are still here). Spend more time with your kids, with your wife. Redesign your landscape, and then put it in yourself. Learn how to repair your car, Learn how to design electronic circuits. Volunteer to teach a science class about medicine at the local high school every month. 
Do something that no one expects you to do. (keep it on the positive side, though). Have you ever run a marathon? wouldn’t everyone be surprised if you did? 
Every large university has some sort of program for people way out of school to take classes. Take a class. 
Are those enough ideas?
 
 

[ljohnson_509]

290k expenses? Most rads should aim for MUCH lower expenses. Especially once you are done raising your kids. It all depends on how important your freedom is versus continuing the grind.

Paying off house saves thousands in interest charges. It lowers your need for income allowing you to save more and needing less when you retire. You can always downsize once the kids are out and pocket the potential gains.

You can save thousands by reading a few books, reading the bogleheads web site, and maintaining discipline. There is nothing advisers know that you do not after some reading and education. They can not predict the future. If they have done “well” for you, than you better look under the hood and see if they are meeting the appropriate bench marks for the amount of risk they are taking with your money. If they are stock pickets, even worse. Typically take 1% of portfolio. Think about how much terminal wealth they will take from you over 20-30 years, like 1/3 to 1/2.

[Unknown Member]

Quote from rads333

In medicine most people work at least about 50-60 hours a week from age 20. Don’t you guys think if you retire, you will get bored?
I mean, if you retire at the age of 50, your spare time will become 10-20 times more of what you have now. Do you have enough things to do in the long run? It may seem great at first, but what about after 2 years? Don’t you miss what you have done in the last 30 years? I agree that working may be exhausting at times, but aren’t there some great aspects to what we do, at least from our perspective?

 
Yup. I totally agree. I think retirement is overrated. I’m sure people get sick of the constant stress of 50-60 hour weeks, but to simply retire at…50? That seems awfully young. Both of my grandfathers worked into their mid 70’s. One of them worked a rough, difficult and dangerous blue-collar job.
 
I remember this quote from Kill Bill….
“The number one cause of death is retirement.”

[Unknown Member]

When the gov’t hits crisis mode and seizes retirement accounts to pay for its burgeoning debt, those long workweeks will be sad.
Think it doesn’t happen?  Argentina 2008; Bolivia and Hungary 2010; Bulgaria 2011.  This has not gone unnoticed by certain politicians.
After all you only built up that account by the grace of a government “subsidy” in the form of a tax deduction.  Why shouldn’t they demand their money back in a time of need?

[Unknown Member]

If you use some income generating investments including Tax free investments.  You need a lot less than 10 Mill to retire on and maintain a reasonable current lifestyle.
 
If you can live off a 100K per year you can very easily from 3 Million possibly but not as easy 2 million) and maintain your principle.

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from kpack123

If you use some income generating investments including Tax free investments.  You need a lot less than 10 Mill to retire on and maintain a reasonable current lifestyle.

If you can live off a 100K per year you can very easily from 3 Million possibly but not as easy 2 million) and maintain your principle.

Yeah, 10 Mil is not even on the radar for us.  But our yearly expenses are only a fraction of RRads.  I am less than the avg. rad income so I guess everything is scaled down for us.  A looming expense we are concerned about is long term care so wonder if and when we should start paying into long term care insurance. 
Also, what do you mean by tax free investments?  Tax free bonds? 

[Unknown Member]

Tax free bonds usually municipalities or bond funds.
 
The key to early retirement in most cases semi retirement is
 
Pay off the House.
 
Fund the Kids education
 
Have no debt
 
Invest early and often
 
Really minimize your unnecesary expenses
 
I’m pretty much working now for Healthcare and a few extras

[Singhp21987]

Good comments from various points of view. I adhere to the Bogle advice. Working 50% at age 66 and love my job and use the money for vacation, small motorhome and 529s. Our expenses are 140k per year in a low cost part of the country. House and cars paid off

Plan on 3% withdrawal rate from nest egg supplemented by SS and wife’s small pension and distribution from charitable annuity (a valuable part of diversification w neat tax savings and gratification from giving). Should have 2 to 3 mil when I kick off

My nest egg was earned over 30 years, 18 yrs in military and academics, 3 in pure PP, and rest at multi spec clinic. Now I’m contract at a VA and really enjoying the pace, flexible work hours and socialization

Long way of saying that w a little frugality, conservative and diversified saving, you can live the good life. Don’t need to make some of the high income figures thrown around on AM.

[aaishafatima999_432]

4+

[mario.mtz30_447]

Quote from Drummer

When the gov’t hits crisis mode and seizes retirement accounts to pay for its burgeoning debt, those long workweeks will be sad.
Think it doesn’t happen?  Argentina 2008; Bolivia and Hungary 2010; Bulgaria 2011.  This has not gone unnoticed by certain politicians.
After all you only built up that account by the grace of a government “subsidy” in the form of a tax deduction.  Why shouldn’t they demand their money back in a time of need?

Well, that’s a depressing thought.  Thanks for the warning though.

[Dr_Cocciolillo]

Argentina ? Bolivia ? Bulgaria ?
Argentina and Bolivia are such different places that there can be no comparison. I think it’s a disservice to post that which has no basis on here without further explanation.

What happened in the EU member of Bulgaria?

[gustavobarraza_207]

If one is talking about government monetary confiscation without due process, you can stay within our own shores and decade, ie, Chrysler bondholders in 2009

[aaishafatima999_432]

One of the main planks of Obama’s proposal on the table to negotiate with the GOP house right now is to tax interest on municipal bonds (currently tax free) on those with incomes above the 28% bracket. So, at the 39.6% bracket , 39.6-28=11.6 % tax on your interest. This is his answer to current difficulties.
Bad idea. More tax equals less investment $ likely in municipal projects, sewers, water supply, schools, universities, etc. Obama says wealthy should pay more.

[Unknown Member]

Quote from MSK/SW

One of the main planks of Obama’s proposal on the table to negotiate with the GOP house right now is to tax interest on municipal bonds (currently tax free) on those with incomes above the 28% bracket. So, at the 39.6% bracket , 39.6-28=11.6 % tax on your interest. This is his answer to current difficulties.
Bad idea. More tax equals less investment $ likely in municipal projects, sewers, water supply, schools, universities, etc. Obama says wealthy should pay more.

And of course the money will cost more, so both less will be done, and taxpayers will have to pay more in taxes to cover this.
 
I think our Pres has a one layer mind – can’t think to the obvious second tier effects, forget about going to three. 

[jquinones8812_854]

Taxing muni bonds is a nonstarter.  States are already in trouble.  If you tax their major source of infrastructure funds, you may as well call it a day for local infrastructure spending. 

[btomba_77]

Quote from MISTRAD

Taxing muni bonds is a nonstarter.  States are already in trouble.  If you tax their major source of infrastructure funds, you may as well call it a day for local infrastructure spending. 

[link=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/03/27/dont_mess_with_our_bonds_roads_need_fixing_117662.html]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/03/27/dont_mess_with_our_bonds_roads_need_fixing_117662.html[/link]

Quote from U.S. Conference of Mayors

 

Congress and the White House have targeted the tax-exempt status of these bonds as a way to raise revenue. Mayors and local elected officials, however, know that would be a penny-wise, pound-foolish decision.
Over [link=http://www.usmayors.org/pressreleases/uploads/2013/0320-release-munibondcoalition.pdf]50 diverse groups[/link] representing governments, housing, transportation, infrastructure and private industry have urged Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Minority Leader Mitch McConnell to keep tax-exempt municipal bonds in the budget. A Senate budget resolution, however, suggests a cap will be placed on them. Heres why that should not stand:
[b]Muni bonds are currently funding over $3.7 trillion worth of essential infrastructure.[/b] Ninety percent of infrastructure muni-bond financing went to schools, hospitals, water and sewer facilities, public power utilities, roads and public transit over the last 10 years. In 2012 alone, more than 6,600 tax-exempt municipal bonds financed more than $179 billion worth of infrastructure projects in communities in every part of the country.
[b]Jobs will be lost.[/b] While Wall Street maybe flourishing, Main Street is not. We still have a long way to go to recover from the severe economic losses from 2008 to now. Thanks to partisan bickering and stalemate in Washington, D.C., local and state officials have had to bear the brunt of not only the Great Recession but also sequestration. Now comes the cap on our tax-exempt bonds.
[b]Eliminating the deduction or including it as part of any cap on deductions will increase the borrowing costs[/b] that public entities will have to pay for improvements. The result will be increased costs for public infrastructure and less funding for teachers, fire and police officers, hospital workers, librarians, and construction and maintenance workers. Any change to the tax-exempt status of municipal bonds will ultimately result in less overall infrastructure spending, fewer jobs and dampened economic activity.
Dont mess with our bonds by throwing out a federal program that has been proven to work. More importantly, dont think that doing so will save money because it wont. Somebody has to fix the roads and open the schools.
Somebody has to pay the bill.

[jquinones8812_854]

Quote from dergon

Quote from MISTRAD

Taxing muni bonds is a nonstarter.  States are already in trouble.  If you tax their major source of infrastructure funds, you may as well call it a day for local infrastructure spending. 

[link=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/03/27/dont_mess_with_our_bonds_roads_need_fixing_117662.html]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/03/27/dont_mess_with_our_bonds_roads_need_fixing_117662.html[/link]

Quote from U.S. Conference of Mayors

Congress and the White House have targeted the tax-exempt status of these bonds as a way to raise revenue. Mayors and local elected officials, however, know that would be a penny-wise, pound-foolish decision.
Over [link=http://www.usmayors.org/pressreleases/uploads/2013/0320-release-munibondcoalition.pdf]50 diverse groups[/link] representing governments, housing, transportation, infrastructure and private industry have urged Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Minority Leader Mitch McConnell to keep tax-exempt municipal bonds in the budget. A Senate budget resolution, however, suggests a cap will be placed on them. Heres why that should not stand:
[b]Muni bonds are currently funding over $3.7 trillion worth of essential infrastructure.[/b] Ninety percent of infrastructure muni-bond financing went to schools, hospitals, water and sewer facilities, public power utilities, roads and public transit over the last 10 years. In 2012 alone, more than 6,600 tax-exempt municipal bonds financed more than $179 billion worth of infrastructure projects in communities in every part of the country.
[b]Jobs will be lost.[/b] While Wall Street maybe flourishing, Main Street is not. We still have a long way to go to recover from the severe economic losses from 2008 to now. Thanks to partisan bickering and stalemate in Washington, D.C., local and state officials have had to bear the brunt of not only the Great Recession but also sequestration. Now comes the cap on our tax-exempt bonds.
[b]Eliminating the deduction or including it as part of any cap on deductions will increase the borrowing costs[/b] that public entities will have to pay for improvements. The result will be increased costs for public infrastructure and less funding for teachers, fire and police officers, hospital workers, librarians, and construction and maintenance workers. Any change to the tax-exempt status of municipal bonds will ultimately result in less overall infrastructure spending, fewer jobs and dampened economic activity.
Dont mess with our bonds by throwing out a federal program that has been proven to work. More importantly, dont think that doing so will save money because it wont. Somebody has to fix the roads and open the schools.
Somebody has to pay the bill.

 
Oh, I know they are talking about it.  But they can’t do it.  Cities and states are already in dire straights. For example, without these bonds, there are some that believe Illinois would have already had to declare bankruptcy.  Are they going to fool around with that?  They need the large cash inflows to Munis to keep state and local spending going. 

[aaishafatima999_432]

Agree , probably a no go. I agree 100% this is not a good idea. But…..
Could be a trading chip for another tax that hurts in a different way. Or, just pass it as a tax on the interest on only ‘millionaires and billionaires’, ie above the 28%-35%  bracket or for those who make over 450K married jointly. Will that hurt the muni bond sales? may not.
Already, the lowering of state income taxes proposed or in place in NC and a couple of other states have hurt muni sales.
 
 

[jquinones8812_854]

Quote from MSK/SW

Agree , probably a no go. I agree 100% this is not a good idea. But…..
Could be a trading chip for another tax that hurts in a different way. Or, just pass it as a tax on the interest on only ‘millionaires and billionaires’, ie above the 28%-35%  bracket or for those who make over 450K married jointly. Will that hurt the muni bond sales? may not.
Already, the lowering of state income taxes proposed or in place in NC and a couple of other states have hurt muni sales.

 
If you look at the statistics, the biggest buyers of munis are the rich.  So if you get rid of their tax benefit…the bonds are going to have trouble.  They are borrowing at record low rates right now…that cost would skyrocket.  

Anyone that supports infrastructure spending might as well call it a day. 

[Unknown Member]

The yields would go up

[jquinones8812_854]

Quote from kpack123

The yields would go up

Yup…meaning the cost for municipalities would increase. 

Basically, they would have to compete with the corporate bond market. 

[medical8]

Quote from MISTRAD

Quote from kpack123

The yields would go up

Yup…meaning the cost for municipalities would increase. 

Basically, they would have to compete with the corporate bond market. 

 
Basically, the extremely wealthy, ie, greater than 1M annual gross income are controlling the country. We are all just along for the ride. Whether its donating several hundred K to a politician for political favor or purchasing several hundred K in shares of a company to manipulate the market, they can do whatever they want.
 
Need proof? Visit Greenwich, CT and surrounding areas in Fairfield County. These are where these crooks live, because property tax rates are approx 1/3 of NY, but they can still easily commute into manhattan. They walk around town treating everyone like their servants. Some of these guys are earning 20M+ annual income!!!!!!
 
But I am sure its the same in wealthy areas of Texas, California, etc. Texas has plenty of oil wealth. This is why the country is turning to sh*t.

[aaishafatima999_432]

Is Hollywood $ included in this indictment?

[medical8]

Quote from MSK/SW

Is Hollywood $ included in this indictment?

 
Yes, all industries are involved. For the sake of brevity I chose not to list them all. The only people who are not involved are physicians, to the best of my knowledge. That’s because we are too busy treating the sick, to form PACs and advocacy groups. So we rely on AMA and ACR who do nothing for us.
 
There is a lot of talk on Aunt Minnie for private groups to “Take back the night” from teleradiology. How about some of you guys getting involved in local political action?

[Unknown Member]

I’m already working the weekends. Let somebody else in the group work the nights.

[medical8]

Quote from Weekendwarrior

I’m already working the weekends. Let somebody else in the group work the nights.

 
Did u actually read my post? Or is this a poor attempt at humor?
 
For those young rads who need or are looking for investment advice, see this link:
 
[link=http://www.dimespring.com/articles/i-am-1-percent-how-compound-interest-has-made-me-a-millionaire#.UWWwBA_BZ2c.gmail]http://www.dimespring.com…ire#.[/link]

[btomba_77]

Thank you dergon of the past.  You set a google alert to remind yourself to post about “gold will be 3500 in a few years” after a “a few years” had passed.
 
This weekend is the 3 year mark of the Gold $3500 No Risk call.
 
 
So what do we have?
 
Since March 20, 2013 gold has gone from roughly  $1,500/oz to $1,250/oz about a 13% decline.
 
When compared to the S&P which has gone from 1570 to 2050, a 30% increase.
 
 
___
 
 
For me personally I’ve decided to defer going part-time for at least a few more years.  That’s mostly based on a negotiation with mrs_dergon who is mid career and really enjoying her work as well an increase in my job satisfaction over the last 2 years or so.      

[tselvidas_246]

We follow Warren’s advice–S&P

[suyanebenevides_151]

Quote from dergon

Thank you dergon of the past.  You set a google alert to remind yourself to post about “gold will be 3500 in a few years” after a “a few years” had passed.

This weekend is the 3 year mark of the Gold $3500 No Risk call.

So what do we have?

Since March 20, 2013 gold has gone from roughly  $1,500/oz to $1,250/oz about a 13% decline.

When compared to the S&P which has gone from 1570 to 2050, a 30% increase.

___

For me personally I’ve decided to defer going part-time for at least a few more years.  That’s mostly based on a negotiation with mrs_dergon who is mid career and really enjoying her work as well an increase in my job satisfaction over the last 2 years or so.      

 
Nothing about what you posted is totally honest, and unless you are selling it’s meaningless. As far as what you are pointing out, the fact that the S&P can go higher is the pure fact that it is also more volatile (high risk = high gain). I’ve always said that gold has a lower ceiling, but also has a higher floor. But this is the point that you guys who want to manipulate the data always omit: If you were holding throughout the 2000s, gold was by far the superior investment. I know you can’t time it, but that’s also MY point: Are you selling right now or just chest thumping because you [i]could [/i]sell if you wanted?
 
I maintain the view that the market is more tenuous than people think and it’s worth waiting for a big drop, sitting on the sidelines until then. You might say it’s a missed opportunity. I say it’s worth the wait because the drop might be big. Then of course I’d agree, get in and make some smart buys.

[Unknown Member]

[b]Thank you dergon of the past.  You set a google alert to remind yourself to post about “gold will be 3500 in a few years” after a “a few years” had passed. [/b]
  
[b]This weekend is the 3 year mark of the Gold $3500 No Risk call. [/b]
  
  
[b]So what do we have? [/b]
  
[b]Since March 20, 2013 gold has gone from roughly  $1,500/oz to $1,250/oz about a 13% decline. [/b]
  
[b]When compared to the S&P which has gone from 1570 to 2050, a 30% increase. [/b]
 
 
I remember that post Quite well…………………… One of the Agenda driven Emotion based posters making perhaps the dumbest prediction Ive ever seen on this board
 
A few general rules to always always always remember.
 
1.  Never invest with your emotions
 
2. Never let your political leanings cloud your investing judgement….Its all business
 
3. And perhaps most impoirtant ………..when the charlatans try to sell you these doomsday absoultely no risks  gimmicks then run like HELLO because you know they are trying tod dump spomething that they own a lot of .
 
Seen it in Gold
 
Seen it oil
 
Seen it in most commodities