[ruszja]

If someone avoids rads due to Jimbo, it’s their own fault.

[btomba_77]

I am asked by prospective students about this all the time.

I tell them that I have many serious concerns about the future of the profession of radiology in the US

Being replaced by AI is about 10th on the list.

[ester.mancuso_108]

Netanel: any of you have Chest CAT scan image so I do AI find Covid 19?

That about sums up AIs chances of replacing us.

[Unknown Member]

What we should do is say no thanks to AI. Stop buying AI tools. Lobby lawmakers. Show them that it’s dangerous to patient care, which will be easy to do while AI is still developing. Harder to do later when it gets better. Ask them to give us the control so we can place hurdles too large to overcome.

Learn from our brethrens in anedthesiology who stomped on Sedasys before it wedged its foot in the door.

[Unknown Member]

Remember for 6 years jimbo has been screaming that AI will replace radiologist in 5 years

In 6 more years jimbo will still be saying AI will replace radiologists in 5 years

Moral of the story is dont listen to jimbo

[ruszja]

Baby steps.

– give me an AI powered motion correction for CTPA

– give me a mammo CAD that doesn’t get mesmerized by vascular calcs

[debra.paulk_16]

Give me automated hanging protocols and co-registration to comparisons. 

[ruszja]

Quote from jopo

Give me automated hanging protocols and co-registration to comparisons. 

You mean like recognizing a T2 axial even if ‘BF nowhere memorial hosptal’ labeled it ‘picture with bright ventricles’ and hanging it in the right comparison slot ?

[anabarcelo_18]

i’m still well connected with many rising MS4s at my old med school.
and, yes, people are absolutely avoiding radiology solely bc of the fear of AI.
and that is completely understandable.
hell, most daily publications on this site are highlighting AI in narrow task uses that already function on par or better than radiologists
sure, it’s just narrow task, BUT these applying med students won’t be out in practice for 6-7 years. 
these med students have 250-300k in debt at 6%
that is taking a big time risk, and imo, not worth the gamble… especially when the BEST answer you get about how AI will impact the field is “I DON’t KNOW”

[ranweiss]

Yes. Tons of bright medical students avoiding DR because of AI fears, similar to outsourcing fears a few years back.
 
Quality of applicants is still better than IM , anesthesia, etc, but far behind  (especially for non big league name programs) when compared to EM, surgical subspecialties, etc. 
 
Heck, I know someone that DIDNT MATCH PM/R for godssake that scrambled into radiology.

[khodadadi_babak89]

Quote from coldfeetmike

i’m still well connected with many rising MS4s at my old med school.
and, yes, people are absolutely avoiding radiology solely bc of the fear of AI.
and that is completely understandable.
hell, most daily publications on this site are highlighting AI in narrow task uses that already function on par or better than radiologists
sure, it’s just narrow task, BUT these applying med students won’t be out in practice for 6-7 years. 
these med students have 250-300k in debt at 6%
that is taking a big time risk, and imo, not worth the gamble… especially when the BEST answer you get about how AI will impact the field is “I DON’t KNOW”

Good post, 

OP noted that it was our fault. (I think meaning radiologists). It is not. We cannot control the ignorant self-promotional rants of people like Andrew Ng, and Hinton. They are promoting their career and income with unsupportable hype that the media LOVES, LOVES, LOVES!
But you bring up a great point. Each story on AM that pushes AI should come with an analysis of the paper, written by a non-partisan, pointing out the strong limitations that each has. 
We cannot possibly prevent progress in computer science as it applies to radiology, nor would we want to. Savvy  promoters know to label each report as somehow an AI application so that they get press. We radiologists have always used computer advances to advance patient care. RSNA and ACR are taking steps to insure that radiologists control the growth and insure that it is clinically valid, and to insure we don’t have computer scientists becoming de facto physicians through their software. Will radiology succeed in preventing ignorant software from harming patients? yet to be seen. 

[debra.paulk_16]

Quote from fw

Quote from jopo

Give me automated hanging protocols and co-registration to comparisons. 

You mean like recognizing a T2 axial even if ‘BF nowhere memorial hosptal’ labeled it ‘picture with bright ventricles’ and hanging it in the right comparison slot ?

That would be game changing wouldn’t it. 

[msc5405]

I would support AI for thyroid ultrasounds. 

[Unknown Member]

make brew

[suman]

Quote from fw

– give me a mammo CAD that doesn’t get mesmerized by vascular calcs

this already exists

[suman]

Quote from Jimboboy

What we should do is say no thanks to AI. Stop buying AI tools. Lobby lawmakers. Show them that it’s dangerous to patient care, which will be easy to do while AI is still developing. Harder to do later when it gets better. Ask them to give us the control so we can place hurdles too large to overcome.

Learn from our brethrens in anedthesiology who stomped on Sedasys before it wedged its foot in the door.

Better yet, ACR should call in all the banners to have rads storm Google campus, and smash their computers (and microkitchens). They are out of office anyways due to COVID. Wave Black Lives Matter banners while you’re at to gain public support.

[satyanar]

Im confused as to why anyone in radiology would worry about students not choosing it. Just makes it that much easier to outshine your peers. If you like the job go for it. If not stay away. The presence of AI is irrelevant unless you are afraid you cant pass muster.

[cchandc]

EM and Primary Care fields is ripe for the picking when it comes to AI. Easy to replace MD with midlevel+AI; probably easier to automate than rads. Probably better patient care too.

[Mohamed]

Icu too, most smaller hospitals are like a 10 bed units with an overnight PA or NP who is just following a book of flow charts and patching into the supervising crit care doctor on a Webcam in a central bunker watching of like a dozen these outfits

[Unknown Member]

Coldfeet—MS4s are like clueless ducklings.  I’ve seen people make huge mistakes in career choices based on ridiculous forecasts.  It’s pretty simple, if you love rads, do it.  If you’re on the fence, make up your mind. And look WITHIN.  You’re a fool though if you let extrinsic factors like AI influence you.

[Unknown Member]

Quote from Voxeled

Coldfeet—MS4s are like clueless ducklings.  I’ve seen people make huge mistakes in career choices based on ridiculous forecasts.  It’s pretty simple, if you love rads, do it.  If you’re on the fence, make up your mind. And look WITHIN.  You’re a fool though if you let extrinsic factors like AI influence you.

I think this is accurate. One can outsmart oneself easily.
I have all sorts of anecdotes re medical students trying to pick their future based on forecasts.
And my advice was always, pick what you like. 
If you don’t know that; a dilemma. But if radiology appeals to you; not a dilemma.
 

[aldoctc]

Quote from Voxeled

Coldfeet—MS4s are like clueless ducklings.  I’ve seen people make huge mistakes in career choices based on ridiculous forecasts.  It’s pretty simple, if you love rads, do it.  If you’re on the fence, make up your mind. And look WITHIN.  You’re a fool though if you let extrinsic factors like AI influence you.

 
Yup.  I was fortunate enough to have received a wise observation about picking a medical specialty when I was a med student:  “Picking a residency for specialty training based on your experiences as a MS3 is like deciding you want to be a rock star after going to your first concert.”  Allowed me to take a more rational and disinterested view of medicine and think about what mattered to me for my professional life.  Now, nearing the end of my professional career, I can look back and say I made the right choice for me.  
 
Is AI over-hyped?  Sure, at least at this point.  
 
Do I think I can work for the next 6-8 years (my current retirement horizon) without fear of being replaced by AI?  Absolutely.  
 
If I were finishing med school now and looking at radiology with a plan to work for 30 years would I be worried about being replaced by AI?  Now that’s a bit more anxiety provoking…..
 

[abd.fawzi_217]

I agree with you flounce. But as a med student, I feel like the downsides of rads are inextricably linked to its upsides. Yes, the fact that rads can be done anywhere means its more likely to be commoditized. But that means that I can live wherever i want without necessarily worrying about having to take some crap job. You don’t own your patients, but you get 8-12 weeks off, can swap shifts, more easily go part-time, etc.
 
For AI, I would like to see no more cashiers, truck drivers, pilots, etc before worrying about highly specialized physicians losing their jobs. Imagine if in 2015 you avoided rads because some numbskull said in 5 years there would be no jobs?

[Unknown Member]

AI is for real, and if you don’t think so it’s just wishful thinking.
 
Now how it specifically affects radiology is another question. It will certainly change things drastically. 
 
Medical students need to fundamentally believe they want to be imagers, however that will be defined, and regardless of remuneration. With that, a fruitful career is possible.
 
But to make the judgement based on a well off relative radiologist who works part time from home is a suckers bet. I am quite sure the salaries will be competitive, but more modest. The hours will be more standardized, and more onerous. The workload will be very challenging. 
 
The golden age as we know it is over; but there will remain a righteous profession for those interested and motivated.

[Unknown Member]

Quote from boggles

I agree with you flounce. But as a med student, I feel like the downsides of rads are inextricably linked to its upsides. Yes, the fact that rads can be done anywhere means its more likely to be commoditized. But that means that I can live wherever i want without necessarily worrying about having to take some crap job. You don’t own your patients, but you get 8-12 weeks off, can swap shifts, more easily go part-time, etc.

For AI, I would like to see no more cashiers, truck drivers, pilots, etc before worrying about highly specialized physicians losing their jobs. Imagine if in 2015 you avoided rads because some numbskull said in 5 years there would be no jobs?

 
It seems you have bought into radiology, head over heals, very early on; and it comes across as more about the accoutrements than the profession itself. 
It’s like you fell in love with a mail order bride, but haven’t even met her. 
Think about the work; is it what you want to do?  You really can’t predict the status of the profession in 10 years time. Don’t forgo radiology because of AI, but don’t go into it because of unfounded expectations based on current circumstances. 

[william.wang_997]

I am both with boggles and boomer on this. The telerads has changed the game of radiology forever, lifestyle wise. My OB and gas friends look at me with envy.
However, The 1st subspecialty to fall for AI will be Neuroradiology. It is easier to create a database for a boxed organ such as brain. It is already happening.

[abd.fawzi_217]

Quote from boomer

Quote from boggles

I agree with you flounce. But as a med student, I feel like the downsides of rads are inextricably linked to its upsides. Yes, the fact that rads can be done anywhere means its more likely to be commoditized. But that means that I can live wherever i want without necessarily worrying about having to take some crap job. You don’t own your patients, but you get 8-12 weeks off, can swap shifts, more easily go part-time, etc.

For AI, I would like to see no more cashiers, truck drivers, pilots, etc before worrying about highly specialized physicians losing their jobs. Imagine if in 2015 you avoided rads because some numbskull said in 5 years there would be no jobs?

It seems you have bought into radiology, head over heals, very early on; and it comes across as more about the accoutrements than the profession itself. 
It’s like you fell in love with a mail order bride, but haven’t even met her. 
Think about the work; is it what you want to do?  You really can’t predict the status of the profession in 10 years time. Don’t forgo radiology because of AI, but don’t go into it because of unfounded expectations based on current circumstances. 

 
Yeah, I was speaking about the non-professional aspects. As of now though I do believe though that if money, lifestyle, job market, etc were the same rads would be the best fit for me. I have no clue what the future will look like, and im sure if the state of things was bad enough it would make me dislike any field but it doesn’t seem worth it to worry about while things are good/normal. Ive been interested in radiology for a few years now and frankly am a little bummed that the job market/WFH aspects exploded post-pandemic because it seems these things have made it much more competitive to match into than even in 2020.

[Unknown Member]

Quote from boggles

I agree with you flounce. But as a med student, I feel like the downsides of rads are inextricably linked to its upsides. Yes, the fact that rads can be done anywhere means its more likely to be commoditized. But that means that I can live wherever i want without necessarily worrying about having to take some crap job. You don’t own your patients, but you get 8-12 weeks off, can swap shifts, more easily go part-time, etc.

 
I understand what you’re saying and I would agree – i.e. it would be more than a fair trade, hey call me a commodity and I’ll just sit in my home office make 500-800K a year as an independent contractor – *if* I thought this was a new steady state rather than a snapshot in time.  
 
Working from home is fantastic comfortable. When I work from home, my gym is in my office so I get my lifts in during the workday, I have Amazon Prime/Netflix playing on a dedicated monitor to the right, sometimes I grill a steak for lunch or poke the missus, or help my kids with a particular tricky math problem. What’s not to like?   
 
I don’t have much confidence that the current reimbursements for telerads will last. It’s like breast imagers writing their ticket in a tough market – no call, no weekends, no MRIs, no coverage, and equal partner.  But when the pendulum swings away, someone who went into breast imaging because they thought they could get that same sweet deal is going to be disappointed.
 
Currently, telerads in my area who are fast generally make *more* than the partners in the brick and mortar groups. More money, more vacation, less hassle, no commute or tumor board or fluoro, great stuff. It’s all based on volume. As newly minted grads enter the job market as telerads and rads in crappy community groups enter telerads, the supply side of interpretations is going to increase and with time the amount paid for a study – especially if prelims by a corporate group – is going to go down, that’s my fear. And it can go down and down and there will still be teleradiologists living in Santa Monica and NYC and SF who will read it for even less if they can get the cases. 
 
Maybe I’m wrong, hopefully I’m wrong and telerad continues to have their cake and eat it, too. But I don’t like the way it looks. I’m very happy with radiology as a field for myself, but for my son, I see the outlook for, say, a hand surgeon or vascular surgeon or trauma ortho to be more secure and rewarding than a diagnostic radiologist, even if those professions are busier. I also sense that they feel more useful than radiologists feel useful, whether or not that is indeed the case, as we know that calling a 2AM ER noncon head “neg acute” is plenty useful for the treating physician even if it doesn’t feel like much to this radiologist. Many docs just care about how much money they’re printing. To me, I feel like the work needs to feel important and impactful, that’s worth something. Medicine in general is superior to many other fields in this regard, and some fields within medicine (I think) offer more of that feeling than other fields. To me, that’s worth something. 

[tom.claikens_334]

error

[abd.fawzi_217]

Quote from Flounce

Quote from boggles

I agree with you flounce. But as a med student, I feel like the downsides of rads are inextricably linked to its upsides. Yes, the fact that rads can be done anywhere means its more likely to be commoditized. But that means that I can live wherever i want without necessarily worrying about having to take some crap job. You don’t own your patients, but you get 8-12 weeks off, can swap shifts, more easily go part-time, etc.

I understand what you’re saying and I would agree – i.e. it would be more than a fair trade, hey call me a commodity and I’ll just sit in my home office make 500-800K a year as an independent contractor – *if* I thought this was a new steady state rather than a snapshot in time.  

Working from home is fantastic comfortable. When I work from home, my gym is in my office so I get my lifts in during the workday, I have Amazon Prime/Netflix playing on a dedicated monitor to the right, sometimes I grill a steak for lunch or poke the missus, or help my kids with a particular tricky math problem. What’s not to like?   

I don’t have much confidence that the current reimbursements for telerads will last. It’s like breast imagers writing their ticket in a tough market – no call, no weekends, no MRIs, no coverage, and equal partner.  But when the pendulum swings away, someone who went into breast imaging because they thought they could get that same sweet deal is going to be disappointed.

Currently, telerads in my area who are fast generally make *more* than the partners in the brick and mortar groups. More money, more vacation, less hassle, no commute or tumor board or fluoro, great stuff. It’s all based on volume. As newly minted grads enter the job market as telerads and rads in crappy community groups enter telerads, the supply side of interpretations is going to increase and with time the amount paid for a study – especially if prelims by a corporate group – is going to go down, that’s my fear. And it can go down and down and there will still be teleradiologists living in Santa Monica and NYC and SF who will read it for even less if they can get the cases. 

Maybe I’m wrong, hopefully I’m wrong and telerad continues to have their cake and eat it, too. But I don’t like the way it looks. I’m very happy with radiology as a field for myself, but for my son, I see the outlook for, say, a hand surgeon or vascular surgeon or trauma ortho to be more secure and rewarding than a diagnostic radiologist, even if those professions are busier. I also sense that they feel more useful than radiologists feel useful, whether or not that is indeed the case, as we know that calling a 2AM ER noncon head “neg acute” is plenty useful for the treating physician even if it doesn’t feel like much to this radiologist. Many docs just care about how much money they’re printing. To me, I feel like the work needs to feel important and impactful, that’s worth something. Medicine in general is superior to many other fields in this regard, and some fields within medicine (I think) offer more of that feeling than other fields. To me, that’s worth something. 

 
definitely a very interesting time… I agree with you that now is the ultimate employee market but who knows how it will play out. As great as it is to come into a blazing market i’d be pretty torn between going “red-pilled” tele and a more traditional PP gig, especially if theres not as many good ones in your desired locale. Hopefully in the 7 or so years itll take until I’m an attending things will become more clear.

[jonhanse_770]

I’m not sure how more articles I have to write with documentation to have you all understand that AI will be a compliment to radiologists and not take over their jobs. After all, who do you sue if AI misses a call? That and about 16,273 other issues keep AI from taking over radiology. Yes, there will be applications for AI only reads- typically in third world countries for TB scanning, etc- but in the US will we see AI taking over all of radiology? Not just no but hell no. 
 
PACSMan
 
 

[tom.claikens_334]

error

[Robbro524_990]

I, for One, Welcome Our Robot Overlords.

[Unknown Member]

^ Boo.

[jonhanse_770]

.I need more articles with more documentation. What you’ve written so far was poorly done. You need to do better.

I guess thats why almost everything I write is among the top 2 or 3 articles of the week when published…. because they are so poorly written…LOL 
 
I inlcude as much solid documentation as I can find whenever I find it but frankly most of what is published out there is total crap. It includes so many undocumented statements, studies that have no factual basis or studies that read “Ten radiologists used it five of them loved it therefore 50% of the 30,000+ radiologists in the US both like and embrace AI.”  Ummmm…no. Wait…was that YOUR study? LOL….
 
Feel free to submit something that you feel has SOLID documenation behind it. IF it gets published I’ll read it and either be impressed or tell you  “You need more articles with more documentation. What you’ve written so far was poorly done. You need to do better.” Laugh,
 
Make it a great weekend
 
PACSMan
 
 
 
 
 
 

[susquam]

Don’t let this person get to you.
 
All there posts are like this.
 
Not sure if always trying to be sarcastic or not but the humor never makes it through to me if they are…

[Robbro524_990]

Agree with the above. I assume this person is either trolling (most likely) or truly just an a$$. Don’t sweat it…

[buckeyeguy]

I’m a huge skeptic, but in any case before AI can do anything even remotely substantial the real thing to worry about is the country/health cartel/printing/debt system of the USA. That’s the first shoe to drop and then [i]it may[/i] go to some service (like AI) that isn’t worth crap but is required, whether it is good or not, due to being broke.

[Unknown Member]

a huge skeptic, but in any case before AI can do anything even remotely substantial the real thing to worry about is the country/health cartel/printing/debt system of the USA.

Please explain what exactly is country/health cartel/printing/debt system of the USA

[toumeray]

I think what he means is that AI may become mandated by congress or some regulatory body because it can be sold for large amounts of money to hospitals and allow some politicians who have suspiciously well timed investments in AI tech companies to make lots of money. We are mandated to use CAD software for mamms even though its useless. Its feasible that AI will go down the same road.

[Unknown Member]

Uhhhhhhh

I would not worry about that

[ruszja]

Spoke to a radonc program director at a big academic program. They can’t find residents to fill their slots.

[buckeyeguy]

Quote from fw

Spoke to a radonc program director at a big academic program. They can’t find residents to fill their slots.

 
I have a friend who is a radonc and went through all sorts of practice problems in big cities. What was happening to rad oncs (at least in those big cities) was just as bad or worse than radiologists during the bad times of 2011-2018. They had slightly worse manipulation of residents/production of colleagues and major lowballing by “partners” waiting for people to be abused.

[Unknown Member]

Yes, that’s part of the marketing of it. You focus on the scammy political side of it, which of course will happen, so good point. The larger point in that short post of mine though was that since it becomes “doing things cheaper” (not paying rads or paying them bare bones to oversee now that this “does it all!”), of course they’ll choose it in a broke health care system/one that is insolvent/one supported by money printing or joke-like debts. The pols benefiting from this is just a reason to believe it’ll happen even more (in this fashion).

Who is this chiro guy? it’s quite easy to read these posts, and if you disagree with them state why my man, don’t post pithy nothings that add zero value.

Well blasting cigar whatever your name is I just wanted you to further describe what stated in more concrete terms

The vague anti government rant can pretty much mean anything

And even after your attempt at a clarification I will
State the following

While Im STILL unclear on what you actually mean. Im not worried about it.

No machine can go do or job and with the rise of Er hospitalist intensivist Noctors etc we are more vital than ever

And its not changing in the next 25 years

So Im not worried

[Unknown Member]

Honestly the biggest threat I see is new rads wanting to read from home only

Anyone who sits in a hospital seat daily knows how vital we are to the day day functions of a hospital

The only threat I worry about is we become so invisible that these Noctors and second levels learn to live without us

[tdetlie_105]

Quote from Chirorad84

Honestly the biggest threat I see is new rads wanting to read from home only

Anyone who sits in a hospital seat daily knows how vital we are to the day day functions of a hospital

The only threat I worry about is we become so invisible that these Noctors and second levels learn to live without us

 
Good point.  I understand the convenience of reading from home but it’s isolating as hell.  
 
Dergon raised some solid points but I think a lot of these are not unique to radiology but are an overall threat to practicing physicians of all fields  
 
Given the rising costs of medical education and just about everything else, deciding on med school these days is a lot more dicier 

[buckeyeguy]

Quote from jd4540

Given the rising costs of medical education and just about everything else, deciding on med school these days is a lot more dicier 

 
I think this is the larger, more important question. Payments are definitely going to go down for anyone in med school right now or considering it, and how long does it take for the med school’s to end the overcharging? I don’t see that ending for another 5 years at least.

[satyanar]

Which is the more relevant thread?

[buckeyeguy]

Quote from Thread Killer

Which is the more relevant thread?

 
Regarding what topic, TK?

[satyanar]

Quote from Dream Run

Quote from Thread Killer

Which is the more relevant thread?

Regarding what topic, TK?

 
I was musing on the fact that there is another thread that is touting the competitiveness of radiology residencies and this one that has the premise that students aren’t choosing rads because of the fear of AI.

[abd.fawzi_217]

Thread Killer is correct, currently the article makes no sense because of immense med student interest in radiology

[Unknown Member]

It seems like med students are more comfortable assessing exponential technological growth than the seasoned rads in the forum. 

[buckeyeguy]

Quote from Skripnik

It seems like med students are more comfortable assessing exponential technological growth than the seasoned rads in the forum. 

 
Is this the only thing we disagree on? Usually you have choice takes.

[buckeyeguy]

Quote from Alwaysbereading

I think what he means is that AI may become mandated by congress or some regulatory body because it can be sold for large amounts of money to hospitals and allow some politicians who have suspiciously well timed investments in AI tech companies to make lots of money. We are mandated to use CAD software for mamms even though its useless. Its feasible that AI will go down the same road.

 
Yes, that’s part of the marketing of it. You focus on the scammy political side of it, which of course will happen, so good point. The larger point in that short post of mine though was that since it becomes “doing things cheaper” (not paying rads or paying them bare bones to oversee now that this “does it all!”), of course they’ll choose it in a broke health care system/one that is insolvent/one supported by money printing or joke-like debts. The pols benefiting from this is just a reason to believe it’ll happen even more (in this fashion).
 
Who is this chiro guy? it’s quite easy to read these posts, and if you disagree with them state why my man, don’t post pithy nothings that add zero value.

[anabarcelo_18]

what other concerns do you have? mainly continued corp infiltration and elimination of PP?
single payer implementation would likely/ obviously be extremely detrimental, but look at AUS and Canada so maybe some hope?
 
further, another reason i see med students avoiding rads is that it is a LONG training path. 6 years (which can be 7 if you graduate into a tough market) is a long time. EM, gas, IM among other fields can pretty easily make 250-400k, and my understanding is that most rads are making 350-450k. but we train for 3 extra years…
and i understand why the training is LONG. radiology is HARD

[ranweiss]

Quote from coldfeetmike

what other concerns do you have? mainly continued corp infiltration and elimination of PP?
single payer implementation would likely/ obviously be extremely detrimental, but look at AUS and Canada so maybe some hope?

further, another reason i see med students avoiding rads is that it is a LONG training path. 6 years (which can be 7 if you graduate into a tough market) is a long time. EM, gas, IM among other fields can pretty easily make 250-400k, and my understanding is that most rads are making 350-450k. but we train for 3 extra years…
and i understand why the training is LONG. [b]radiology is HARD [/b]

Extremely. But apparently some tech entrepreneurs are going to have us all out of jobs b/c they will train computers how to do our jobs better within the next 5-10 years. *eye roll*

[ruszja]

Quote from coldfeetmike

further, another reason i see med students avoiding rads is that it is a LONG training path. 6 years (which can be 7 if you graduate into a tough market) is a long time. EM, gas, IM among other fields can pretty easily make 250-400k, and my understanding is that most rads are making 350-450k. but we train for 3 extra years…
and i understand why the training is LONG. radiology is HARD

 
Anyone who would avoid rads in favor of EM or Gas due to the corporate takeover and AI doesn’t have any insight into the struggles in those specialties. They are already for the most part corporate and both can be easily replaced with midlevels and with IM moonlighters. Heck, during a call shift I maybe speak to 10 PAs/NPs for any time I speak to a boarded ER doc.

[jtvanaus]

[size=”0″]Are U.S. medical students APPLYING radiology due to COVID?[/size]

[fun00n66m_267]

fw, do you feel any group of professionals that are shift workers (EM, hospitalists, anesthesia) are more subject to corporatization, commodization and replacement by midlevels?

[ruszja]

Quote from turftoe

fw, do you feel any group of professionals that are shift workers (EM, hospitalists, anesthesia) are more subject to corporatization, commodization and replacement by midlevels?

 
Anything that doesn’t allow you as doctor to build a following and rapport with [u]your[/u] patients is subject to displacement by corporate outfits and midlevels. Occasionally I have a mammo patient as for ‘Dr X’ to read her mammogram because he has been reading them for the past 20 years, but that is rare. My wife is in a surgical specialty, she gets christmas cards, gift baskets, potted plants and offers to deliver slaughtered farm animals in time for the holidays 😉  While there is lots of PE inroads into her field, unless the corporates find a way to slant the playing field in their favor, there is nothing they can offer her at this time that would motivate her to sell her practice.

[mthx9155]

Don’t know about that. Family medicine/outpatient primary care is the prime example of a specialty that relies on following and building a rapport with your patients, yet is one of the biggest targets of mid-level takeover. 
 
Mid-level takeover has more to do with any specialties that involve a lot of repetitive/algorithmic or non-medical decision-making, has nothing to do with building rapport with patients (which mid-levels claim to do better, inaccurately, anyway). For example, many IR practices have PAs that can do simple venous access or biopsies…but I have never heard of a practice where mid-levels do GI bleeds or angioplasty. Too much variability in medical decision-making and potential for complications even between individual cases. 
 
Corporate takeover is an entirely different entity from mid-level takeover and has its own separate reasons. 

[Patrick]

I think AM threads turn off more med students than the threat of AI.

[afazio.uk_887]

There is certainly risk in entering Radiology training at this point in time.  It is very possible the traditional PP will be dead outside of BFE locations by the time these students are out of training.  AI is certainly a risk that is hanging out there and nobody knows for sure the effect it will have. Plus, training in Rads is quite long.   If a student has many options, it is smart to look at all the angles. 

[ljohnson_509]

Graduating into a bad job market is always a risk, but even a small chance of graduating into obsolescence (AI) is not acceptable given the effort. Theres a lot of options out there.

[ruszja]

Quote from qxrt

Don’t know about that. Family medicine/outpatient primary care is the prime example of a specialty that relies on following and building a rapport with your patients, yet is one of the biggest targets of mid-level takeover. 

 
In the employed corporate or clinic setting sure, the bean counters can buy almost 2 alphabet soups for every doctor. Except for the few little niches that require a ‘physician’, eventually corporate primary care will be 100% midlevel run. If you own your practice and you provide good service in primary care, there is going to be a line down the block. There is again nothing the corporate raiders can offer that would beat what you can provide. Oh, and once you get busy, you can hire midlevels….. 

[Unknown Member]

These guys cant even make a PACS thats stable. When the PACS with AI crashes, will a robot be doing the prelims off the CT scanner monitor.

All dreams, no reality.

[btomba_77]

Newly published by one of my colleagues and section mates:
 
[link=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0363018822001165]https://www.sciencedirect…/pii/S0363018822001165[/link]
 
[b]
Dear Medical Students – Artificial Intelligence is NOT taking away a Radiologist’s Job[/b][/h1]  
 
Given the limited exposure to radiology during the pre-clinical and clinical training years, it has always been a challenge to recruit medical students to the field. This challenge has been compounded by recent stress and anxiety among medical students in pursuing radiology due to concerns of artificial intelligence (AI) taking away a radiologist’s job. A 2022 study by Reeder et. al demonstrated that one-sixth of medical students who would have chosen radiology as their first choice did not due to concerns of AI (2).
 
Given the relatively recent growth in medical research, AI is a topic that generally has limited discussion throughout medical school training. As a result, this presents an opportunity for misinformation and unfounded concerns over the impact it may have on medical specialties, particularly radiology….
 

[abd.fawzi_217]

Considering the match rate for US MD seniors went from 96% in 2020 to 83% in 2022, and is now in the 60s for DO seniors, it certainly doesnt seem like theres any issue recruiting for radiology.

For students the issue is theres not enough spots!

[satyanar]

Quote from dergon

Newly published by one of my colleagues and section mates:

[link=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0363018822001165]https://www.sciencedirect…/pii/S0363018822001165[/link]

[b]
Dear Medical Students – Artificial Intelligence is NOT taking away a Radiologist’s Job[/b]  

Given the limited exposure to radiology during the pre-clinical and clinical training years,[b] it has always been a challenge to recruit medical students to the field.[/b] This challenge has been compounded by recent stress and anxiety among medical students in pursuing radiology due to concerns of artificial intelligence (AI) taking away a radiologist’s job. A 2022 study by Reeder et. al demonstrated that one-sixth of medical students who would have chosen radiology as their first choice did not due to concerns of AI (2).

Given the relatively recent growth in medical research, AI is a topic that generally has limited discussion throughout medical school training. As a result, this presents an opportunity for misinformation and unfounded concerns over the impact it may have on medical specialties, particularly radiology….

 
Do you find the bolded to be true? 

[vascularinter]

for my part – I would avoid radiology because of corporate medicine taking over, but also because of AI to some extent

For clarity – I am CLEAR that AI can’t do our jobs. But I am equally clear that those pulling the strings now – hospitals, and corporate medicine people either do not understand this, or understand but see it as a way to pay midlevels to do radiology regardless of the decline in quality. They know they can easily hide any quality deficiencies.
So – I am not afraid of AI, I am afraid of the people who will use it as a weapon against us.

Note – Radiology was prominently mentioned on a podcast by an AI guru – Gary Marcus.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224]https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224[/link]

He mentions prominently Geoffrey Hinton’s arrogant prediction in 2015 that we would all be gone in 5 years. And also says this is a proximate cause of Medical students not going into Radiology and causing a shortage.
The segment about radiology starts about 50 minutes in, but it is all worthwhile to listen to.
 

[satyanar]

Quote from RadiologistX

for my part – I would avoid radiology because of corporate medicine taking over, but also because of AI to some extent

For clarity – I am CLEAR that AI can’t do our jobs. But I am equally clear that those pulling the strings now – hospitals, and corporate medicine people either do not understand this, or understand but see it as a way to pay midlevels to do radiology regardless of the decline in quality. They know they can easily hide any quality deficiencies.
So – I am not afraid of AI, I am afraid of the people who will use it as a weapon against us.

Note – Radiology was prominently mentioned on a podcast by an AI guru – Gary Marcus.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224]https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224[/link]

He mentions prominently Geoffrey Hinton’s arrogant prediction in 2015 that we would all be gone in 5 years. And also says this is a [b]proximate cause of Medical students not going into Radiology and causing a shortage[/b].
The segment about radiology starts about 50 minutes in, but it is all worthwhile to listen to.

 
Again, is the bolded really a thing? 
 
 

[vascularinter]

Quote from Thread Killer

Quote from RadiologistX

for my part – I would avoid radiology because of corporate medicine taking over, but also because of AI to some extent

For clarity – I am CLEAR that AI can’t do our jobs. But I am equally clear that those pulling the strings now – hospitals, and corporate medicine people either do not understand this, or understand but see it as a way to pay midlevels to do radiology regardless of the decline in quality. They know they can easily hide any quality deficiencies.
So – I am not afraid of AI, I am afraid of the people who will use it as a weapon against us.

Note – Radiology was prominently mentioned on a podcast by an AI guru – Gary Marcus.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224]https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224[/link]

He mentions prominently Geoffrey Hinton’s arrogant prediction in 2015 that we would all be gone in 5 years. And also says this is a [b]proximate cause of Medical students not going into Radiology and causing a shortage[/b].
The segment about radiology starts about 50 minutes in, but it is all worthwhile to listen to.

Again, is the bolded really a thing? 

 
IF I am being a skeptical scientist – I would say he presents no evidence of that – but others above do provide some anecdotal evidence
 

[satyanar]

Evidence of there being a shortage of medical students going into radiology? Are there unfilled positions in programs that are causing a decrease in graduates?
 
The program I am most familiar with has gotten RRC approval multiple times for a short term increase in spots to accommodate demand.

[satyanar]

Ill take the silence to mean there is no shortage of medical students going into radiology.

[nicolasvg.1003]

AI is an abstract threat but I do believe it will be prevalent in 20 yrs. There are many ways it could go tho and making Rads obsolete seems like the least likely outcome imo.

[Unknown Member]

I’m not worried about AI for all the reasons mentioned. But I think AI and corporate teleradiology should give a med student pause in considering radiology. My son is only in high school and wants to be a doctor;  I would recommend he become some surgical subspecialist (or any surgeon for that matter) rather than a radiologist. 

[mario.mtz30_447]

Why, because of the necessity of human dexterity?  (for now)

[abd.fawzi_217]

The problem with being a surgeon though is you have to give up your life and the OR sucks

[Unknown Member]

Just my opinion. 
 
I think surgery is harder to commoditize nationally, as opposed to diagnostic imaging and tele-medicine evaluations whether outpatient, inpatient or ER. At some point there’ll probably be widespread technology for remote surgeries – e.g. a surgeon in New York operates through a console on a patient in New Mexico – whereas today a radiologist in New York can already be providing interpretations on imaging of a patient in New Mexico. For a long while, your surgeon will have to be physically within a certain distance of where you are, and that’s job security. 
 
Surgeons own the patient, diagnostic radiologists / path / anesthesia etc are ancillary and depend on other docs using them. Owning the patient is better. 
 
I think the sense of one’s impact is greater when you are hands deep inside a patient and cutting and sewing them. Looking at images of a patient and dictating a report is much further removed and the sense of reward / making a difference is more vague. 

[Unknown Member]

You people are delusional if you think AI won’t take over in 10 years. Radiology and pathology are ripe for AI, since they are all about pattern recognition which a computer once it has been fed a threshold amount of data can do much better and faster. 
 
Saying an AI can’t do the work is like saying a 5 year old can’t drive stick. Yeah maybe, but in 10 years that 15yo is going to be doing way more than driving stick, and that’s human learning which is linear. Computer advancements are exponential. The curve of time and AI capabilities will be parabolic. 
 
I hope I’m wrong but in 10 years I will probably be doing AI overreads before PE and hospitals just stop hiring rads. 

[satyanar]

Quote from RadiologistX

Quote from Thread Killer

Quote from RadiologistX

for my part – I would avoid radiology because of corporate medicine taking over, but also because of AI to some extent

For clarity – I am CLEAR that AI can’t do our jobs. But I am equally clear that those pulling the strings now – hospitals, and corporate medicine people either do not understand this, or understand but see it as a way to pay midlevels to do radiology regardless of the decline in quality. They know they can easily hide any quality deficiencies.
So – I am not afraid of AI, I am afraid of the people who will use it as a weapon against us.

Note – Radiology was prominently mentioned on a podcast by an AI guru – Gary Marcus.
[link=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224]https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-michael-shermer-show/id1352860989?i=1000576268224[/link]

He mentions prominently Geoffrey Hinton’s arrogant prediction in 2015 that we would all be gone in 5 years. And also says this is a [b]proximate cause of Medical students not going into Radiology and causing a shortage[/b].
The segment about radiology starts about 50 minutes in, but it is all worthwhile to listen to.

Again, is the bolded really a thing? 

IF I am being a skeptical scientist – I would say he presents no evidence of that – but others above do provide some anecdotal evidence

 
This discussion was going on a few months ago. Do we have an answer?

[buckeyeguy]

Yes, sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy that doesn’t actually matter. If anything, it provided a double whammy – helping out our field by at least suggesting a shortage (whether real or not, or greater demand in any case) and at the same time proving that AI isn’t here currently and there’s no reason to believe it will be. Even if they manage to convince people that it works, regardless of if it does (it doesn’t), that won’t happen until 2026-7 earliest.

[enrirad2000]

Is AI going to replace us in 5 years??

[ranweiss]

Per the experts…we would already be instinct secondary to AI by now. 
 
Don’t think it’s going to do much other than hopefully improve our workflow for the next decade or two. 

[buckeyeguy]

Quote from ar123

Per the experts…we would already be instinct secondary to AI by now. 

Don’t think it’s going to do much other than hopefully improve our workflow for the next decade or two. 

 
This.

[Unknown Member]

If my kids really wanted to do radiology, I’d suggest they have a fellowship in IR or breast and still read general. Maybe be like SNACman and make over a million dollars a year! “Money for nothing and your chicks for free”

[buckeyeguy]

Would you recommend being a physician, given the future of the healthcare system in the US, Flounce? To your kids or your friends kids …
 
I ask because you generally have charitable takes on things, so it is interesting to me what you might say/recommend

[Unknown Member]

Yes.
 
As a purely financial investment of time and money – the ROI on medical education and training has gotten exponentially worse. Autonomy and satisfaction has also plummeted among physicians compared to yesteryear. 
 
Yet as far as it fallen, average and median physician compensation remains high compared to the population, I don’t know at what percentile we physicians earn but it remains relatively high. If one in three people are accepted into medical school (I don’t know current numbers) and the vast majority admits to med school become practicing physicians, it is still a good gig for something that basically requires some grit and organization, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist. And let’s face it, most of us have some children who are not gonna be a rocket scientist, they can be 12 years old and we can already see that. 
 
The huge upside of medicine in my opinion is a subjective one, which is to say, it is a pretty flippin amazing responsibility and role to play. Someone lets themselves be made unconscious and gives you permission to stick a sharp piece of metal in them to filet them open and cut them up and sew them up again, in it’s most extreme form. But even on the other end of the spectrum, say an inpatient nurse helping a cripple wipe his bum or drain a plastic bulb of goo coming out of his belly, I still think is pretty badazz in what providers do for a living. 
 
I feel the same sort of awe for law enforcement, military operators, firefighters, and many educators who feel a sense of mission. And yeah, I’ve told my teenage son I’d be proud of him if he became a physician or if he joined the military after undergrad and became a warfighter. At the end of the day, all these jobs pay the bills and let you go on vacation and raise a family on an honest living, even if they don’t print money like radiologists. At the end of a life, I feel like you want to look back on what you did and say, damn that was a pretty cool way to make a living or spend your time.  
 
But I know I am in the minority here, few people look at a job in terms of glory or service or nobleness or a feeling of dedication to a Cause or sense of belonging to a Tribe, they just want to make money and take part in the rat race and find themselves clinking champagne glasses on a private jet flying to some tropical island like in a commercial. 

[g.giancaspro_108]

Admin should be replaced long before doctors.

[link=https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/gaming-company-appoints-ai-bot-as-new-ceo-sees-record-breaking-growth-in-stock-market-2347298-2023-03-16]https://www.indiatoday.in…ket-2347298-2023-03-16[/link]

[buckeyeguy]

Yes. And thanks for the response, Flounce.

[marciorka]

does anyone know how match went in radiology? I know ER had like 555 unfilled

[emilielegay]

0 open spots

[btomba_77]

Quote from Lmfiondss

0 open spots

And applications up by like 10%

[ljohnson_509]

Are rad resident potions expanding compared to previous years?

[Mohamed]

Slower than other specialties, a lot of residency expansion is in for profit places like HCA where they can use IM/EM for cheap labor.

The problem with those EM openings is that even if there were enough spots for all us seniors (and there aren’t, there are way too mant med school seats vs residency spots) , every single one of those slots would still be filled this week with international grads.

[marciorka]

Thanks. But this after SOAP or before SOAP?
 

Quote from Lmfiondss

0 open spots

[abd.fawzi_217]

Before soap

[afazio.uk_887]

 
Rads has the highest increase in applicants over the last 4-5 years.  Whatever potential threats are out there, Rads right now considered one of the best fields to go into. 
 
I don’t see that changing given how clinical medicine continues to devolve.  ER match stats are unbelievable – when I was in med school, ER was a desirable match.  What a dumpster fire that field has become. 

[spc44_369]

12 people applied radiology as was told to me by 4th year medical students at my residency program, the highest in years . 4 went unmatched. If you guys go on reddit youll see radiology is often very hyped on there

[22002469]

Quote from Dear Dr. Rad

does anyone know how match went in radiology? I know ER had like 555 unfilled

 
Here is a good snapshot.  Job market/WFH >>> AI concerns (for the moment). 
 
Will that be a smart move? Time will tell. But right now, rads is one of the most sought after residency spots. 
 
 

[ruszja]

It appears that neither mid-level encroachment nor chat-gpt or WFH managed to deter people from matching into rads.

Interestingly for the match at large, the match rate for DOs is almost on par with MDs.

[Mohamed]

Remember the current grads still slugged out portions of their clinical years in the depths of covid hell and workforce shortages so even getting gouged at a bad telerads job is huge draw to people stuck doing covid services staffed by remote attendings who never stepped foot into the hospital or got the educational enrichment of paying tens of thousands in tuition to get turned into asswipers when the pcas all quit to double their salary doing fast food.

[buckeyeguy]

Quote from CaptainWaffles

Remember the current grads still slugged out portions of their clinical years in the depths of covid hell and workforce shortages so even getting gouged at a bad telerads job is huge draw to people stuck doing covid services staffed by remote attendings who never stepped foot into the hospital or got the educational enrichment of paying tens of thousands in tuition to get turned into asswipers when the pcas all quit to double their salary doing fast food.

 
I love you, man
 
Remember that commercial? I think it was Bud Light. Great stuff waffles
At this point if something huge happened to DC or the City of London or whatever, it’d be a huge upgrade for everybody except the transfer payment people …

[tdetlie_105]

Quote from Radsoxfan

Quote from Dear Dr. Rad

does anyone know how match went in radiology? I know ER had like 555 unfilled

Here is a good snapshot.  Job market/WFH >>> AI concerns (for the moment). 

Will that be a smart move? Time will tell. But right now, rads is one of the most sought after residency spots. 

 
Good info. Thx for sharing

[buckeyeguy]

How many of the 2400 applicants matched, did you guys say 2000 some where?

[abd.fawzi_217]

theres only like 1300 spots

[afazio.uk_887]

Radiology is a hot field again despite looming AI threat. Guess the med students think its worth the risk.

[22002469]

Quote from boggles

theres only like 1300 spots

 
Seems so. Only 67% of applicants matched (81% of US MDs matched). Big declines. 
 
Total number of applicants in this chart are different than the prior chart I posted, maybe related to people applying to multiple specialties/using rads as a backup?
 
 

[btomba_77]

xxxxxx

[btomba_77]

Quote from dergon

I am asked by prospective students about this all the time.

I tell them that I have many serious concerns about the future of the profession of radiology in the US

Being replaced by AI is about 10th on the list.

 

Quote from coldfeetmike

what other concerns do you have? 

Extensive consolidation making rads hostages to an oligopoly of groups, especially in certain markets.
 
Disintermediation by corporate practices, be those private equity or “physician owned” practices that decrease compensation and damage radiology quality of life.
 
Government regulation that truly limits access to advanced imaging, perhaps through a marked expansion of bundled payments or capitation.
 
Move to a single payer or “medicare for all” system that quickly outstrips forecasted expenses and requires painful across the board reimbursement cuts from the government.
 
Government deregulation that allows for non US based radiologists to render final interpretations on CMS studies
 
Encroachment of mid-level providers into radiology image interpretation.
 
Continued encroachment of other physician specialties into interpretation of high RVU imaging.
 
….
 
 
OK… I can’t get to 10 off the top of my head.  But I consider all of those to be a greater risk to the profession of American radiology than AI.
 
 

[lisbef3_453]

Quote from dergon

Extensive consolidation making rads hostages to an oligopoly of groups, especially in certain markets.

Disintermediation by corporate practices, be those private equity or “physician owned” practices that decrease compensation and damage radiology quality of life.

Government regulation that truly limits access to advanced imaging, perhaps through a marked expansion of bundled payments or capitation.

Move to a single payer or “medicare for all” system that quickly outstrips forecasted expenses and requires painful across the board reimbursement cuts from the government.

Government deregulation that allows for non US based radiologists to render final interpretations on CMS studies

Encroachment of mid-level providers into radiology image interpretation.

Continued encroachment of other physician specialties into interpretation of high RVU imaging
….

Impressive.  They are quite well informed.  I would argue that limited capitation in the ED would be beneficial, unless you’d like to follow the trendline down to reading a CT for five (inflation corrected) bucks.  Also, replace ‘Medicare for all’ with ‘Medicaid’, and accepting it will be a condition of licensure in some states.
 
The biggest risk of AI will be its potential to suck the financial oxygen out of the room.   Well connected grift is the norm.   
 
Rads employed by the big health systems and VC will be ‘supervising’ noctor reads (it will be mandatory, as ED docs now do) long before AI will be capable of doing anything of import. 

[Unknown Member]

Quote from dergon

Quote from dergon

I am asked by prospective students about this all the time.

I tell them that I have many serious concerns about the future of the profession of radiology in the US

Being replaced by AI is about 10th on the list.

Quote from coldfeetmike

what other concerns do you have? 

Extensive consolidation making rads hostages to an oligopoly of groups, especially in certain markets.

Disintermediation by corporate practices, be those private equity or “physician owned” practices that decrease compensation and damage radiology quality of life.

Government regulation that truly limits access to advanced imaging, perhaps through a marked expansion of bundled payments or capitation.

Move to a single payer or “medicare for all” system that quickly outstrips forecasted expenses and requires painful across the board reimbursement cuts from the government.

Government deregulation that allows for non US based radiologists to render final interpretations on CMS studies

Encroachment of mid-level providers into radiology image interpretation.

Continued encroachment of other physician specialties into interpretation of high RVU imaging.

….

OK… I can’t get to 10 off the top of my head.  But I consider all of those to be a greater risk to the profession of American radiology than AI.

These are all great reasons for med students to think carefully about choosing radiology.
 
Procedure based specialties are still natural monopolies. The doctor’s face is marketed by the hospital. Radiology has been commoditized by tele. Do intelligent people who have ran the gauntlet of medical school want to destroy their social capital by becoming a cheap, faceless, nameless commodity?
 
Is choosing radiology today an act of immolation? No suti?
 
I love radiology but wouldn’t choose it today. It just wouldn’t be prudent.
 
 

[william.wang_997]

+1
 

Quote from dergon

I am asked by prospective students about this all the time.

I tell them that I have many serious concerns about the future of the profession of radiology in the US

Being replaced by AI is about 10th on the list.