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ACR Jobs posts decline from 1100+ to 800+
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2000 or bust. Boomers are either rich, tired of working or decrepit and wont be able to hang around when the next economic downturn hits. I could see total acr job postings hitting 2000 next year. Keep in mind that there are roughly 1100 graduating rads each year. Spitballing here but probably 20% of those are looking for lifestyle gigs or part time (because this generation is not the hardworking boomer gen) and Im guessing at least 500-600 boomers will retire by July. Also keep in mind a lot of fellows have probably already accepted jobs (Id say at least 20% by now). I think shortage isnt even close to peeking when factoring in boomer attrition and incoming lifestyle seekers.
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
2000 or bust. Boomers are either rich, tired of working or decrepit and wont be able to hang around when the next economic downturn hits. I could see total acr job postings hitting 2000 next year. Keep in mind that there are roughly 1100 graduating rads each year. Spitballing here but probably 20% of those are looking for lifestyle gigs or part time (because this generation is not the hardworking boomer gen) and Im guessing at least 500-600 boomers will retire by July. Also keep in mind a lot of fellows have probably already accepted jobs (Id say at least 20% by now). I think shortage isnt even close to peeking when factoring in boomer attrition and incoming lifestyle seekers.
Good points…hopefully we settle into the sweet spot of shortage (not so extreme that crazy legislature is passed that allows anyone to interpret studies)-
Supplemental income from hospitals would be helpful for recruiting. A lot of hospitals are already hemorrhaging month though, in part due to travel agencies that leave the nurses, techs etc.
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Quote from Umichfan
Supplemental income from hospitals would be helpful for recruiting. A lot of hospitals are already hemorrhaging month though, in part due to travel agencies that leave the nurses, techs etc.
I apologize for redundant posts but as stated multiple times before, hospitalists do not produce enough wRVU to cover their compensation yet they exist and are perfectly content with requiring that hospitals pay them yet rads are scared to ask for any subsidization despite the fact that we are scarce, are as essential as electricity, and hospitals are making a killing on tech fees 24/7???
I’ve been out about 10 years and have practiced in 4 different states coast to coast. Common theme being that all hospitals are renovating/expanding, have more sophisticated/expensive marketing, and are starting to look more and more like hotels. Money is coming from somewhere when/as needed. I doubt any hospital/HC system CEO/CFO or whoever is taking a pay cut bc of extra pay to techs/RNs etc…My current group receives subsidization from our HC system bc it was part of contract negotiations. If you don’t ask you won’t get.-
Exactly. Radiologists are a very timid bunch on average. Esp diagnostic rads. Dont ask for something and you wont get it for sure.
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Seriously. Subsidy for radiology group should become new standard not just in rural areas. We asked, hospital balked and gave in after looking around. Maybe the new admin of quality assurance of light switches and carpet will have to take a pay cut. Off topic, but are admins now saying thank you for partnering with me on patient care. I hate it. Whens the last time they worked a weekend or after 5pm? Rise up rads.
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The boldness was not there in the past b/c you have to be able to call their bluff and in the past our group did not have a plan B, if the admins said no way. You have to be able to follow through on your contingency plan if the admins dare you to leave when they don’t meet your demands. Plus later on, once they realize there are no other decent options and cave, you may not want to go back to them. It’s definitely a gutsy move and you better have the nuts in your hand to back it up.
Quote from AKOMAN
Seriously. Subsidy for radiology group should become new standard not just in rural areas. We asked, hospital balked and gave in after looking around. Maybe the new admin of quality assurance of light switches and carpet will have to take a pay cut. Off topic, but are admins now saying thank you for partnering with me on patient care. I hate it. Whens the last time they worked a weekend or after 5pm? Rise up rads.
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Totally agree. Only possible now that supply and demand favor radiologists. I have no shame in making hay while the sun shines or whatever the saying is. Encourage all rads to do the same. Now is a good time to negotiate.
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Quote from AKOMAN
Seriously. Subsidy for radiology group should become new standard not just in rural areas. We asked, hospital balked and gave in after looking around. Maybe the new admin of quality assurance of light switches and carpet will have to take a pay cut. Off topic, but are admins now saying thank you for partnering with me on patient care. I hate it. Whens the last time they worked a weekend or after 5pm? Rise up rads.
My feel is that rad groups have been negotiating with little leverage for the past 15-20 years or so for multiple reasons. Contract renewal were more or less likely based on the way things were done previously. While the job market has been increasingly opening up since around 2014-ish, PE infiltration/increasing tele-rad presence simultaneously occurred which essentially undercut negotiating power for true independent PP…It will be interesting to see how things play out moving forward. The reality of PE stealing a contract from mid/large groups (35-40+) which would require having a handful of fellowship trained breast imagers and a larger handful of IR rads to be physically on site seems less likely these days and hopefully PP groups will take advantage.-
Quote from jd4540
Quote from AKOMAN
Seriously. Subsidy for radiology group should become new standard not just in rural areas. We asked, hospital balked and gave in after looking around. Maybe the new admin of quality assurance of light switches and carpet will have to take a pay cut. Off topic, but are admins now saying thank you for partnering with me on patient care. I hate it. Whens the last time they worked a weekend or after 5pm? Rise up rads.
My feel is that rad groups have been negotiating with little leverage for the past 15-20 years or so for multiple reasons. Contract renewal were more or less likely based on the way things were done previously. While the job market has been increasingly opening up since around 2014-ish, PE infiltration/increasing tele-rad presence simultaneously occurred which essentially undercut negotiating power for true independent PP…It will be interesting to see how things play out moving forward. The reality of PE stealing a contract from mid/large groups (35-40+) which would require having a handful of fellowship trained breast imagers and a larger handful of IR rads to be physically on site seems less likely these days and hopefully PP groups will take advantage.
I see your point and raise. I *suspect* (daytime) PE groups will have to start doing what night corporates are already doing, pulling back contracts because they can’t find bodies.
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1806!
Is there any one left to read out the list? -
Im trying to analyze the meaning of the numbers. Obviously, fellows are signing contracts left and right. Is there one rad retiring for every fellow that signs? Im sure theres also an element of practice expansion and transitions to part time.
Our practice is on a major struggle bus though.
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I also see an increasing trend of groups putting out multiple listings at once. Like they’re way short.
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Quote from IGotKids2Feed
I also see an increasing trend of groups putting out multiple listings at once. Like they’re way short.
Groups are *way* short.
Yesterday I had a long conversation with a friend who is in leadership at our local competitor institution. We are both struggling to get radiologists on board. It is particularly difficult, nigh on impossible at the moment, to get someone to sign on for a “butt in chair” on site gig.
Everyone wants to be a telerad. They like the idea of a salary and the stability of a large group/institution …. but they don’t want to be in house.
It’s not 2005 bad, but it’s bad.
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With the markets not doing well and recession coming (or already here), what are the chances of a turn-around. i.e. rads delaying retirement or deciding against part-time b/c they need to replenish their accounts?
Quote from dergon
Quote from IGotKids2Feed
I also see an increasing trend of groups putting out multiple listings at once. Like they’re way short.
Groups are *way* short.
Yesterday I had a long conversation with a friend who is in leadership at our local competitor institution. We are both struggling to get radiologists on board. It is particularly difficult, nigh on impossible at the moment, to get someone to sign on for a “butt in chair” on site gig.
Everyone wants to be a telerad. They like the idea of a salary and the stability of a large group/institution …. but they don’t want to be in house.
It’s not 2005 bad, but it’s bad.
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Your not ready for retirement if a 20-25% drawdown prevents you from retiring. Nows a good time as any with valuations lower and expected future returns higher.
Radiology has become very intense and non stop. I dont think many who can retire will hesitate to do so.
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most likely more than 1 rad retiring for each new signee.
But I think more of the rads who are >55 yo want to get away from the “full-time” schedule and cut back and work less so that puts an even bigger strain on the overall staffing. Many got a taste of remote reading during pandemic and they want more of it.
Quote from Umichfan
Im trying to analyze the meaning of the numbers. Obviously, fellows are signing contracts left and right. Is there one rad retiring for every fellow that signs? Im sure theres also an element of practice expansion and transitions to part time.
Our practice is on a major struggle bus though.
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not just the new grads from fellowship/residency looking for lifestyle gigs.
lots of late 40s, early 50s rads are tired of the grind. they want something less than full time.
Quote from sartoriusBIG
2000 or bust. Boomers are either rich, tired of working or decrepit and wont be able to hang around when the next economic downturn hits. I could see total acr job postings hitting 2000 next year. Keep in mind that there are roughly 1100 graduating rads each year. Spitballing here but probably 20% of those are looking for lifestyle gigs or part time (because this generation is not the hardworking boomer gen) and Im guessing at least 500-600 boomers will retire by July. Also keep in mind a lot of fellows have probably already accepted jobs (Id say at least 20% by now). I think shortage isnt even close to peeking when factoring in boomer attrition and incoming lifestyle seekers.
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Quote from dergon
Quote from IGotKids2Feed
I also see an increasing trend of groups putting out multiple listings at once. Like they’re way short.
Groups are *way* short.
Yesterday I had a long conversation with a friend who is in leadership at our local competitor institution. We are both struggling to get radiologists on board. It is particularly difficult, nigh on impossible at the moment, to get someone to sign on for a “butt in chair” on site gig.
Everyone wants to be a telerad. They like the idea of a salary and the stability of a large group/institution …. but they don’t want to be in house.
It’s not 2005 bad, but it’s bad.
Quote from PPRad
With the markets not doing well and recession coming (or already here), what are the chances of a turn-around. i.e. rads delaying retirement or deciding against part-time b/c they need to replenish their accounts?
I suppose it’s possible. But I just don’t see it. We’re having rads ask *more* for part time even during this downturn …. from older folks all the way down to new hires.
And I don’t see volumes levelling …
I can’t see the future, but if I had to guess, even a recession isn’t go to dent the radiology job market to deeply or for too long.-
Down to 1448 now. Are some some groups just giving up on looking? Anecdotally still a significant shortage or radiologists from what I’m seeing.
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Always goes down the closer we get to June. Fellows are actively signing job contracts now. Expect it to start going back up around March/April once all the stragglers finally sign by then. Also probably some component of people giving up I suppose
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Looked back and it was around 1400ish at this point last year. Buckle up for the longhaul. Shortage is here to stay for the rest of the decade minimum
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OK thanks makes sense.
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It’s always slow this time of the year bc of holidays. It will go back up to 1600s very soon.
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1400 is still a hot job market.
That said, there is a sea of red ink out there on hospital system balance sheets. Big systems are hundreds of millions of dollars behind and many places are responding to revenue shortfalls with hiring freezes.
In the short term, that might negatively impact the radiology job, particularly for hospital-employed rads.
Hiring freezes in non-radiology specialties that drive volume can also have secondary impacts.
And the cuts to capital expenditures will throttle volume growth.
And finally, a US recession will hurt on the volume side as fewer people seek care, particularly elective care.
So 2023 could be a significant dip in the radiology job market.
But I still can’t see how that would be anything but transitory.-
Work for a large health system and we are near fully staffed now, after the flurry of turnover in past couple years. The job market has slightly tilted, at least in my neck of the woods. Still a solid market though.
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Weve gone from 20+ down to about 7 down
(Cleveland has always been a tough town to recruit into. We only get to fully staffed in the real bear markets … mid-late 90s, 2010-2015)
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Quote from ultimaterads
It’s always slow this time of the year bc of holidays. It will go back up to 1600s very soon.
And just like that it’s back up to 1560 now-
Quote from IGotKids2Feed
Quote from ultimaterads
It’s always slow this time of the year bc of holidays. It will go back up to 1600s very soon.
And just like that it’s back up to 1560 now
Yup, not surprising at all. It will prob go to 1700s again soon. Lots of jobs, although many are private equity and suboptimal, working for a suit.
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Any dip in the radiology job would be like dropping a pebble in a pond. Short term ripple at best. Remember 1/8 physicians retired in 2021. If you think another 5-10% didnt retire in 2022, I have a bridge to sell you in Alaska
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
Any dip in the radiology job would be like dropping a pebble in a pond. Short term ripple at best. Remember 1/8 physicians retired in 2021. If you think another 5-10% didnt retire in 2022, I have a bridge to sell you in Alaska
Any one know how many rads retired since covid?
There are approx 40k rads, so if 5% retired each year, that’s 6k retirements since 2020!
If 1/8 rads retired in 2021, that would be over 4k retirees alone in 2021!
And I think we are only putting out 1000-1500 trainees a year.-
Actually there are only about 21K radiologists currently involved in direct patient care according to a recent editorial article in the ACR bulletin. But I don’t see any answers to the quandry of high recent attrition combined with continued increases in imaging volumes. We have all heard the stories of practices that are unable to hire. There could be some improvement with use of AI combined with relative rationing of high-end imaging, but it really looks like we are heading for a UK-type situation where studies may go weeks without being read.
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I am willing to read more, even 50% more volume, but will have to be paid $1M plus a year. Until the MBA suits or corp middlemen pay up, I will stay at my slow and steady current pace. Plenty of Rads would read more, but for a price. Maybe we don’t have Rad shortage, we have a middleman skimmers excess??
Why work extra hard for peanut per RVU rates? There is no incentive to d more than minimum when someone is taking a skim off your back.
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Or even raise our rates to what they were 20 years ago?
Quote from Waduh Dong
I am willing to read more, even 50% more volume, but will have to be paid $1M plus a year. Until the MBA suits or corp middlemen pay up, I will stay at my slow and steady current pace. Plenty of Rads would read more, but for a price. Maybe we don’t have Rad shortage, we have a middleman skimmers excess??
Why work extra hard for peanut per RVU rates? There is no incentive to d more than minimum when someone is taking a skim off your back.
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We are entering an era of radiology where we are working very hard, but being compensated at a high level. A lot of this is because we are all running extremely lean..leaner than most are comfortable with…and comps are still decent. Idk how much longer this will last…but hope like me, others are just putting money in the bank.
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Quote from Nabdul
but it really looks like we are heading for a UK-type situation where studies may go weeks without being read.
I dont see it going THIS bad. The American public wont stand for it. Americans are too accustomed to convenience.-
I don’t think they actually have a choice, to be honest.
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Our turnaround time is never beyond 2 days for outpatient studies. ER is less than an hour, and we are BUSY. More than a few days would be a riot in the hospital.
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Thats what Im saying. UK, Israel, NZ, etc. The reason there are dire rad shortages there is because the money isnt there. We dont have that problem in the US.
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1803 postings on ACR! Never seen it this high! And some postings are offering multiple positions. So real number is prob over 2000.
Are the admins subsidizing employed positions yet?
How are the private groups doing in this market?
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Hospitals are going to be paying income guarantee stipends to radiology going forward. The groups that can’t get them will fail.
Supply and demand as always.
Take advantage of the leverage we have now.
You never know, the huge hospital lobby may convince congress to stop cutting pay every year.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Hospitals are going to be paying income guarantee stipends to radiology going forward. The groups that can’t get them will fail.
Supply and demand as always.
Take advantage of the leverage we have now.
You never know, the huge hospital lobby may convince congress to stop cutting pay every year.
Agree…My cynical side would throw in that some PP groups will be hesitant asking hospital admin for stipends-especially since many will claim not doable due to losses sustained in past few years. These PP groups will likely implode…Strange times but it seems like individual rads have equal/if not greater leverage than PP groups/hospital admin, given how tele has become mainstream.-
Nope. Noctors are coming …Just watch. If Rads cannot read the studies, admin WILL find people to get them read. I mentioned before that I met an Uber driver turned PA who was doing derm, after a couple years of training.
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Noctors wont be reading for the forseeable future. Its like pathology- cant just wing it like in ED, derm etc. I think they will take over minor procedures like para thora thyroid fna etc. that frees up a rad to dictate cases.
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Quote from RADD2010
Nope. Noctors are coming …Just watch. If Rads cannot read the studies, admin WILL find people to get them read.
maybe in the long term
but not in the short / medium term
(and … today is a nice to remind everyone that it was 7 years ago in 2016 that Ezekiel Emmanuel published that we should stop training new radiologists because AI was going to eliminate the need for those jobs in 5-10 years)-
Our hospital was like a nightmare trying to get privileges for our PA do to procedures. Sure let the PA manage grandpas stroke or MI in the ED. But waaaaaait a second- paracentesis and thyroid fna is serious stuff! Haha. Nah, we have nothing to worry about. AI will happen before any serious midlevel encroachment
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Many of the ads look like private equity and duplicate. For example, they will be on for each state’s individual listing, so one postion sometimes more than 20x ads.
Academics look like they have been pillaged based on rsna website jobs. Guessing many have left for allure of remote work with better pay rather than dealing with politics, competition, and relatively low pay.
Job market very healthy overall but not seeing the most competitive jobs available like Cedars Sinai and Mayo Scottsdale like in early 2022 or 2006, where even the best groups/locations had to put out ads.-
Wow havent heard that before mostly PE jobs. Of course thats the case as has been hashed and rehashed countless times on these forums. But again, it is still a proxy for number of overall jobs out there. As per usual, the best jobs are via word of mouth and filled without even a whisper on the acr jobs board. If someone is only searching on ACR jobs board, they are doing it wrong.
Either way, the radiology shortage appears to be worsening. PE c-suite is shaking in their boots wondering if they should switch jobs before the ship finally sinks or ride it til they end up hanging onto a piece of debris like the Titanic movie. Hospitals are becoming increasingly unhappy with PE radiology. Some PE/corporate sites are having to pay per rvu to squeeze out every last ounce of productivity from rads which causes all kinds of problems like nobody wanting to touch the xray list. Ive heard stories of outpatient xrays sitting on the list for 4-5 days before being read. Patients are complaining. Clinicians are complaining. Eventually hospital admin will be tired of it and contracts will be given away to PP groups looking to expand and take a vacation hit for a couple years until they can fully staff with rads looking for a eat what you kill job.
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Quote from Cubsfan10
Hospitals are going to be paying income guarantee stipends to radiology going forward. The groups that can’t get them will fail.
Supply and demand as always.
Take advantage of the leverage we have now.
You never know, the huge hospital lobby may convince congress to stop cutting pay every year.
these are definitely interesting times, and not just for radiologists– lots of parts of healthcare having trouble staffing (nurses, techs, etc). I wish I knew how the next 5-10 years were going to play out, but I don’t. A couple things though.
1. yes, you’re right about leverage etc. There should be opportunities for those who figure out how to best use it and are positioned to do so. Oftentimes this means playing hardball however and being willing to term contracts, relocate, etc. A lot of groups won’t do the first, and many people can’t do the 2nd.
2. There seems to be a persistent, serious supply/demand issue with radiology. Hard to see that getting resolved nationwide in the short term, unless something drastic happens to increase supply, which means NP/PA reading lots of studies or non-US licensed rads doing the same (I think that’s a non-starter, at least in any legal way). Seems to me one possibility, if we start seeing hospitals subsidize rads to get better service, is more of a redistribution in a zero-sum game rather than a real solution: those hospitals that can afford it get more rads, better service etc, but at the expense of hospitals that can’t afford it where service will get even worse.-
To add to BHEs 2nd point, radiology has the benefit (and curse) of our mistakes plainly laid out in black and white (pun intended) forever.
Its WAY easier for a primary care or ED PA/NP to record some fake physical exam, order a few tests, and wait to be told what to do as far as admitting or consulting. A lot of gray area and not always straightforward to see what they botched.
With the current medico-legal environment, noctors final signing diagnostic exams is just asking for major trouble (not to mention obvious patient care issues). The same bad medicine that can be swept under the rug in some fields just wont fly in radiology.
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Exactly. ED noctors get away with it because they just pan scan every patien when in doubt. Derm noctors just overbiopsy. One of my derm friends told me the biopsy rate of Noctors is something like 30% more. The only money being saved by Noctors is hospital money. Hospitals love the cost savings and profit generating noctors. The truth is they actually cost the healthcare system overall. Medicare and health insurance companies foot the bill for all the overordering and unnecessary bx. And that then trickles down to taxpayers and insurance premiums. Such a perverse incentive for hospitals and PE to employ noctors.
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Yup. The buck has to stop somewhere.
If they want to save money with lots of noctors on the front lines and in the ICU, they cant also have noctors behind the scenes running the show in radiology.
They have made their bed with this strategy, but now have to deal with the consequences that go along with it.
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Yup, yup and yup. The radiology evidence is there forever. Explains why clinicians have this double standard with our reports vs theirs. Half of their reports are BS.
Abdomen: Soft and nontender.
Come on man, you know you didnt touch that abdomen!-
Corporate groups backed by PE are demanding subsidies from hospitals to staff difficult to staff locations. I have heard this from insiders. This actually would present golden opportunities to a group of enterprising Rads who want to form a new PP group and undercut PE backed practices. My feeling is that Rads these days dont have any interest in such things tho and just want a cushy Tele WFH gig.
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Quote from IGotKids2Feed
Yup, yup and yup. The radiology evidence is there forever. Explains why clinicians have this double standard with our reports vs theirs. Half of their reports are BS.
Abdomen: Soft and nontender.
Come on man, you know you didnt touch that abdomen!
The physical exam used to be a prospective evaluation by a doctor in an effort to come to a diagnosis and formulate a plan.
Patient charts are now littered with physical exams (often made up or incomplete) primarily serving the purpose of fitting a narrative for patient disposition that’s already been decided by labs and rads.
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I’ve been through several radiology market cycles and when it’s going well, I recall the same sayings everytime. Volumes will go up forever. Radiology shortage will last for generations. The parallel with the stock market at highs and lows is similar.
It’s still cyclical but the time length causes repetitive amnesia. Either radiologists may become more productive (quite possible given homestations) or more prevalent (increasing residency spots) or demand may flatten (slower growth).
I’d be ecstatic if I can finish my career with decades of a hot market but not naive.-
Quote from lk
I’ve been through several radiology market cycles and when it’s going well, I recall the same sayings everytime. Volumes will go up forever. Radiology shortage will last for generations. The parallel with the stock market at highs and lows is similar.
It’s still cyclical but the time length causes repetitive amnesia. Either radiologists may become more productive (quite possible given homestations) or more prevalent (increasing residency spots) or demand may flatten (slower growth).
I’d be ecstatic if I can finish my career with decades of a hot market but not naive.
Hate to he the person to say this time is different. But this time is different. We are facing a demographic hurricane at the same time new radiologists are coming on looking for lifestyle gigs. The boomer demographic is now fading into retirement faster and faster. This demographic is a work til you give up the ghost demographic. They and gen X raised softer and softer generations until we are where we are now. Incoming rads are not looking to work full steam til 70. Try 55-60 at best before they go part time or retire. We may see a little dip toward a tighter job market if the economy tanks like 2008-2011. But I doubt it. Also keep in mind the boomers are the largest generation ever and they are now the biggest patient population in need of more and more imaging. The boomers are the only thing keeping us from a shortage crisis. Remember the post recently about 1 in 8 physicians retired in 2021? Bet the majority of those are boomers. How many boomers are left? They are holding on for now. I wouldnt be shocked to see that another 1 in 8 physicians retired over 2022/2023.
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Quote from Radsoxfan
To add to BHEs 2nd point, radiology has the benefit (and curse) of our mistakes plainly laid out in black and white (pun intended) forever.
Its WAY easier for a primary care or ED PA/NP to record some fake physical exam, order a few tests, and wait to be told what to do as far as admitting or consulting. A lot of gray area and not always straightforward to see what they botched.
With the current medico-legal environment, noctors final signing diagnostic exams is just asking for major trouble (not to mention obvious patient care issues). The same bad medicine that can be swept under the rug in some fields just wont fly in radiology.
Quote from IGotKids2Feed
Yup, yup and yup. The radiology evidence is there forever. Explains why clinicians have this double standard with our reports vs theirs. Half of their reports are BS.
Abdomen: Soft and nontender.
Come on man, you know you didnt touch that abdomen!
Only lawsuit I’ve ever had judgement against me was pretty much exactly this. (I read a abdomen PF and got dragged down for nothing … no real miss … hospital settled and attributed a portion to me without my consent … down side of being an employee )
Fournier’s gangrene. NP documents in the record a normal digital rectal exam performed in the ED. Patient claims that no rectal was ever performed.
At deposition, the noctor admits that no rectal was performed because “they just told us we had to check that off in order to bill for it.”
Bang! The hospital settles fast and down I go.
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Same happened to me years back. And it keeps happening to colleagues. Crappy way off history of abdominal symptoms. Then the actual finding on CT is across the map from mentioned history. L flank pain, rule out stone on non con CT. Actually its an inflammatory process across is a different time zone and can barely be seen in retrospect. Imagine NPs trying to decode the abdomen with always crappy history. And they dont even know how the examine the patient.
Another one is patient presents with significant abdominal pain. CT PE and Supine KUB ordered by NP for reasons unknown. Of course the patient continues to get worse and CT Abdomen pelvis a few days later shows perforated viscus with significant free air. The unmitigated gall to be asked why the free air wasnt seen on the prior X-ray.
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Quote from Umichfan
CT PE and Supine KUB ordered by NP for reasons unknown.
Surprised they would bother to order a KUB. Easier on the index finger to order CT PE + CT a/p.
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“I dont see it going THIS bad. The American public wont stand for it. Americans are too accustomed to convenience.”
Kaiser Socal definitely has outpatient studies on the list for 1-2 weeks already.-
so then here is a question – do you (hospital) pay a higher professional fee to get these xrays read out so they can process the claim so that the hospital (Kaiser or some other) can get paid something for the tech fee on that xray? The hospital cannot get submit a claim the insurer or CMS for the xray until there is a finalized/signed report. Do you sacrifice a little of your tech fee to subsidize the xray pro fee to entice some retired rads to knock these out?
Quote from qwerty89
“I dont see it going THIS bad. The American public wont stand for it. Americans are too accustomed to convenience.”
Kaiser Socal definitely has outpatient studies on the list for 1-2 weeks already.
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Good question, don’t know, but that sounds logical. Maybe even sacrifice *more* than a little of the tech fee to keep that imaging tech fee ATM going. In the form of subsidies?
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[link=https://www.acr.org/Practice-Management-Quality-Informatics/ACR-Bulletin/Articles/March-2022/The-Radiology-Labor-Shortage]https://www.acr.org/Pract…diology-Labor-Shortage[/link]
“The current radiologist population is skewed toward seasoned professionals who may be looking at retirement.[b] Of the 20,970 radiologists engaged in active patient care, 82% are age 45 and over, while 53% are age 55 and over.”[/b]-
Quote from dergon
[link=https://www.acr.org/Practice-Management-Quality-Informatics/ACR-Bulletin/Articles/March-2022/The-Radiology-Labor-Shortage]https://www.acr.org/Pract…diology-Labor-Shortage[/link]
“The current radiologist population is skewed toward seasoned professionals who may be looking at retirement.[b] Of the 20,970 radiologists engaged in active patient care, 82% are age 45 and over, while 53% are age 55 and over.”[/b]
Wow-that 53% figure is particularly alarming. I would imagine that many of these rads likely already have one foot out of the door. Is this unique to our field or the general trend?-
To echo the above, I’ve noticed our applicants over the past couple years have wanted lifestyle positions and many ask for part time right out of fellowship. Part of the problem may be that our ‘part time’ may be more than full time in any non-medical field except maybe those guys that live in and maintain lighthouses.
I am not saying they are wrong to want a reasonable lifestyle with no practice management commitments, but it is hard to run a practice without enough coverage hours and without people willing to make decisions and actually run the practice. If we continue to hire part timers it requires X more radiologists and as we know they aren’t abundant at the moment. We have some guys that work 2x more than, *double*, what the new applicants are requesting as full time, so this is a challenge for sure.-
And then those rads working 2x approach burnout even faster or make so much money that early retirement becomes more realistic?
Quote from sandeep panga
To echo the above, I’ve noticed our applicants over the past couple years have wanted lifestyle positions and many ask for part time right out of fellowship. Part of the problem may be that our ‘part time’ may be more than full time in any non-medical field except maybe those guys that live in and maintain lighthouses.
I am not saying they are wrong to want a reasonable lifestyle with no practice management commitments, but it is hard to run a practice without enough coverage hours and without people willing to make decisions and actually run the practice. If we continue to hire part timers it requires X more radiologists and as we know they aren’t abundant at the moment. We have some guys that work 2x more than, *double*, what the new applicants are requesting as full time, so this is a challenge for sure.-
They tend to burn out faster, but a small % thrive and have been doing it for some time.
Quote from PPRad
And then those rads working 2x approach burnout even faster or make so much money that early retirement becomes more realistic?
Quote from sandeep panga
To echo the above, I’ve noticed our applicants over the past couple years have wanted lifestyle positions and many ask for part time right out of fellowship. Part of the problem may be that our ‘part time’ may be more than full time in any non-medical field except maybe those guys that live in and maintain lighthouses.
I am not saying they are wrong to want a reasonable lifestyle with no practice management commitments, but it is hard to run a practice without enough coverage hours and without people willing to make decisions and actually run the practice. If we continue to hire part timers it requires X more radiologists and as we know they aren’t abundant at the moment. We have some guys that work 2x more than, *double*, what the new applicants are requesting as full time, so this is a challenge for sure.-
80/20 rule?
Maybe 80% of all rad exams are read out by 20% of the rads in the USA?
Quote from sandeep panga
They tend to burn out faster, but a small % thrive and have been doing it for some time.
Quote from PPRad
And then those rads working 2x approach burnout even faster or make so much money that early retirement becomes more realistic?
Quote from sandeep panga
To echo the above, I’ve noticed our applicants over the past couple years have wanted lifestyle positions and many ask for part time right out of fellowship. Part of the problem may be that our ‘part time’ may be more than full time in any non-medical field except maybe those guys that live in and maintain lighthouses.
I am not saying they are wrong to want a reasonable lifestyle with no practice management commitments, but it is hard to run a practice without enough coverage hours and without people willing to make decisions and actually run the practice. If we continue to hire part timers it requires X more radiologists and as we know they aren’t abundant at the moment. We have some guys that work 2x more than, *double*, what the new applicants are requesting as full time, so this is a challenge for sure.-
1815 now. May be the highest of all time.
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People are slowly coming to realize that the faster you read, the more you will be given, and the less you will be paid per read. Why even bother?
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Its probably more than 1800 since some ads are looking for multiple rads.
If workload was more reasonable in this country, wed be looking at a shortage 2x-3x
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I think its actually much less than 1800. ACR job board is just Rad Partners and a few other PE firms spamming the same crap jobs over and over again.
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90% of those listed are total trash. Many repeated or resubmitted without the original post being cancelled.
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I really thought the total # of practicing radiologists in the USA was around 30,000 radiologists. That 21,000 figure is much lower than expected. Does anyone think it’s underestimating the number of radiologists?
Quote from jd4540
Quote from dergon
[link=https://www.acr.org/Practice-Management-Quality-Informatics/ACR-Bulletin/Articles/March-2022/The-Radiology-Labor-Shortage]https://www.acr.org/Pract…diology-Labor-Shortage[/link]
“The current radiologist population is skewed toward seasoned professionals who may be looking at retirement.[b] Of the 20,970 radiologists engaged in active patient care, 82% are age 45 and over, while 53% are age 55 and over.”[/b]
Wow-that 53% figure is particularly alarming. I would imagine that many of these rads likely already have one foot out of the door. Is this unique to our field or the general trend?
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Quote from PPRad
I really thought the total # of practicing radiologists in the USA was around 30,000 radiologists. That 21,000 figure is much lower than expected. Does anyone think it’s underestimating the number of radiologists?
Quote from jd4540
Quote from dergon
[link=https://www.acr.org/Practice-Management-Quality-Informatics/ACR-Bulletin/Articles/March-2022/The-Radiology-Labor-Shortage]https://www.acr.org/Pract…diology-Labor-Shortage[/link]
“The current radiologist population is skewed toward seasoned professionals who may be looking at retirement.[b] Of the 20,970 radiologists engaged in active patient care, 82% are age 45 and over, while 53% are age 55 and over.”[/b]
Wow-that 53% figure is particularly alarming. I would imagine that many of these rads likely already have one foot out of the door. Is this unique to our field or the general trend?
This doesn’t make sense to me either. There are about 1000 (1100? Something like that) new board certificates handed out every year. The median age of taking your boards is ~32-33 (31 if you go straight through with no breaks in your schooling / training, but many people take a break).
If you figure that most (populations of) people start retiring in their late 50s and some don’t retire until they’re 80, you can roughtly come up with 4 quartiles (ROUGHLY);
33-43 – everybody is still working
43-53 – everybody is still working
53-65 – some people start to retire
65+ – some people stop at 65, some go on until they’re 80+
The 20,000 number seems low. That number was taken from an ACR paper referenced above. The ACR paper in turn took it from a Vrad article ([link=https://blog.vrad.com/radiologist-staffing-trends-2021);]https://blog.vrad.com/rad…staffing-trends-2021);[/link] let’s say I wouldn’t take it as ground truth. Even the chart in that article shows the number closer to >30,000.
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Lose more people than youd think just to retirement alone. Some go out ignominiously, driving Teslas off 250 foot cliffs in mid 40s..
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You think?
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Doesnt matter if they are total trash. Its still a marker of the job market. Shortage is worsening. And it doesnt take a smart person to know its like that everywhere. Cant think of a single group that would say, yeah we are adequately staffed. People are just drowning in studies as if thats normal. Nothing normal about reading 150 studies half cross sectional every day. Heck even 100 half cross sectional is draining after a few years. My ideal workload would be 80 studies half CT/MRI, 20 ultrasound and 20 plain films. I feel lucky to have a day of 100 studies at this point.
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Market is tightening IMHO. Whereas we had no difficulty hiring multiple rads last year (good job with good pay), can’t find a single one now. Feels very different. I’m not even getting people that want to feel the job out. A couple times I’ve called rads I thought might be interested only to find out they were hoping to hire me instead.
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Ive heard of that too. Ive literally seen people in charge of recruiting for their group leave for another job because they come across a much better gig whilst recruiting. Crazy the market we are in
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Im not sure. I hear all about this great market so I peruse the ACR job bored every so often and agree the vast majority of the jobs look like trash.
I also get the $1M income job Ads in the mail and am skeptical these are not horrible high volume sweatshop gigs.
I think the market was much better in the 2001 – 2008 time frame in terms of job quality.
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CMS paid $38/RVU in 2008 and now under $34/RVU in 2023. I know not the only factor in a job market but an important one in terms of what people can make and be paid from a PP stand point.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
Im not sure. I hear all about this great market so I peruse the ACR job bored every so often and agree the vast majority of the jobs look like trash.
I also get the $1M income job Ads in the mail and am skeptical these are not horrible high volume sweatshop gigs.
I think the market was much better in the 2001 – 2008 time frame in terms of job quality.
The market wasn’t consolidated back then. Small practices are more fragile and have to pay more than giant ones. No tele to compete with either. I remember those days- great job market then.
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Even in tight markets, the best jobs never get listed.
Has always been the case.-
My job was listed back then and it turned out to be a great gig.
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Weve had good luck with IR fellowship rads who want to practice DR too. Ours are good at a lot of stuff.
It seems there are a bunch looking for jobs too, at least comparatively.
Medium/or especially small size groups dont have the luxury of subspecialization. Once you start that road you create imbalances that are almost impossible to rectify. Mammadonnas are a problem, but primadonnas are not unique to breast imaging. There are some groups who hire the wrong rads short term, only to create unmanageable problems in the near future.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
My job was listed back then and it turned out to be a great gig.Like most things, we cant rely on anecdotal evidence. Trend is the trend. Increasing jobs available and not enough rads to fill them. The majority of jobs on ACR being trash is irrelevant other than perhaps a future contributing factor to the demise of PE.
Also most good jobs still do not advertise. The fact you got lucky and found one is great for you but really doesnt mean much. Recommendation is still the same for graduating fellows- sure see whats on ACR but more importantly talk to anyone with contacts at good practices in your community of choice to see if they have a position available. For the right candidate, a group will even run fat for a few years if they have someone retiring in 2-3 years. Even really good/stable groups take the right candidate when it makes sense. Too risky nowadays to wait until someone is within 6 months-1 year of retirement to find a replacement. Plus running a little fat is a nice luxury to have and can give a group a little 1-2 year breather as they get their new recruit up to speed volume wise..
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
Quote from Waduh Dong
My job was listed back then and it turned out to be a great gig.
Like most things, we cant rely on anecdotal evidence. Trend is the trend. Increasing jobs available and not enough rads to fill them. The majority of jobs on ACR being trash is irrelevant other than perhaps a future contributing factor to the demise of PE.
Also most good jobs still do not advertise. The fact you got lucky and found one is great for you but really doesnt mean much. Recommendation is still the same for graduating fellows- sure see whats on ACR but more importantly talk to anyone with contacts at good practices in your community of choice to see if they have a position available. For the right candidate, a group will even run fat for a few years if they have someone retiring in 2-3 years. Even really good/stable groups take the right candidate when it makes sense. Too risky nowadays to wait until someone is within 6 months-1 year of retirement to find a replacement. Plus running a little fat is a nice luxury to have and can give a group a little 1-2 year breather as they get their new recruit up to speed volume wise..
I have always felt the group got lucky…. LOL kidding.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
Quote from sartoriusBIG
Quote from Waduh Dong
My job was listed back then and it turned out to be a great gig.
Like most things, we cant rely on anecdotal evidence. Trend is the trend. Increasing jobs available and not enough rads to fill them. The majority of jobs on ACR being trash is irrelevant other than perhaps a future contributing factor to the demise of PE.
Also most good jobs still do not advertise. The fact you got lucky and found one is great for you but really doesnt mean much. Recommendation is still the same for graduating fellows- sure see whats on ACR but more importantly talk to anyone with contacts at good practices in your community of choice to see if they have a position available. For the right candidate, a group will even run fat for a few years if they have someone retiring in 2-3 years. Even really good/stable groups take the right candidate when it makes sense. Too risky nowadays to wait until someone is within 6 months-1 year of retirement to find a replacement. Plus running a little fat is a nice luxury to have and can give a group a little 1-2 year breather as they get their new recruit up to speed volume wise..
I have always felt the group got lucky…. LOL kidding.
many smaller groups in AZ, TX, FL have been corporatized. Consider your group lucky.
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Quote from dergon
Even in tight markets, the best jobs never get listed.
Has always been the case.
In a big city yes. In smaller towns no. Rads aren’t waiting in the wings to go to Lima or Zanesville or Youngstown.
-Depends on what the definition of best jobs is.-
What is consensus – Telerad or rural boots on the ground for get max income?
Not for me, I am cool with my setup at present. However, when I came out those residents looking for max income would head to rural area small groups.
Nowadays, it seems like Telerad can be a way to outearn those Rads if one is willing to crank volume.
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Quote from Waduh Dong
What is consensus – Telerad or rural boots on the ground for get max income?Not for me, I am cool with my setup at present. However, when I came out those residents looking for max income would head to rural area small groups.
Nowadays, it seems like Telerad can be a way to outearn those Rads if one is willing to crank volume.
For most rads rural. For the likes of SLACman- tele.
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