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  • 20+ Years Radiology and Still Full Time

    Posted by Unknown Member on September 27, 2020 at 8:04 pm

    Ive always wondered why there are so many rads who have worked for over 20 years who are still working full time.  All these rads should have the money to be retired and if they like to keep doing it because they like the money, I would think they would be doing it part time.  Ive actually never asked any of them why they stay full time, Ive assumed the most likely thing is either
     
    A) Divorce (and so they actually need the money to be financially independent)
    B)  Extremely exorbitant lifestyles 
    C)  Poor Investing (Although if you are investing properly, this shouldnt be an issue.  All market downturns are handled just fine with proper asset allocation and re balancing).
    D) No life/identity outside of radiology (although cutting half time would probably be better for these people?)
    E) They love radiology and never thought about cutting back?
     
     
    Anyone know what the most common reason is for these people to be working full time still?   Maybe its just the baby boomer mentality.  I know millenials will retire as soon as they are financially independent.  
     

    aaishafatima999_432 replied 4 years, 1 month ago 20 Members · 41 Replies
  • 41 Replies
  • dzerangel_635

    Member
    September 27, 2020 at 8:07 pm

    Paying way more than $750 a year in taxes.

    • satyanar

      Member
      September 27, 2020 at 8:09 pm

      Our full time is basically part time.

      • Unknown Member

        Deleted User
        September 27, 2020 at 9:43 pm

        Outside of athletes and firefighter/police/military type jobs I don’t see a lot of 55year olds retiring from their jobs, which is what you’re basically asking. Empirically, if money were the main determining factor, neurosurgeons, CT surgeons and the like would be retiring in the sub-60 year old range and I don’t see that happening either.

        To the contrary, diag rads are perfectly fit to work into their 70s and I suspect most who stay that long do so for the love of the field.

        • DanielQuilli

          Member
          September 28, 2020 at 3:42 am

          A and D in my experience. Its always been very disappointing to me that so many people, not just in radiology, have no passions/intense interests in life and are content to just live out a humdrum routine .

          • ljohnson_509

            Member
            September 28, 2020 at 5:35 am

            You are almost guaranteed to be financially independent at a basic level at 50 assuming you avoid divorce, McMansions and other trappings of a rich life. That may explain a big chunk of why we dont see many early retirements,

            • Melenas

              Member
              September 28, 2020 at 6:00 am

              The answer to your question would require knowing their financial situation. Most Im sure do it cause they are used to it and dont mind doing it. Sitting at home dealing with the wife or kids isnt all that fun. And it isnt like you can stay home and blow a bunch of money doing whatever you want. You still have to ration. So why not just work and get a little pay. 
               
              Remember as radiologist, we dont have to do much. We sit in the dark room with AC, play background music. Once in awhile get up and sling some barium or stick a needle somewhere. All the images are taken for you. And the differential diagnosis for a neck mass hasnt changed with the newer and faster scanners (or what you have to say if you see a mass).  It is still all the same despite what the academics will tell you. Thats not true of other areas of medicine. New drugs with new side effects, patients wanting to talk to you, forms to fill, claims etc… We are shielded from many of these things in radiology. 
               
              It cost money to retire unless u wanna garden every day. Travel cost money. Hobbies can get expensive. 
               
              Thus, may do not retire because there is easy money in radiology so why not make more of it. I bet if these radiologist were to make less than 150k for the same amount of work they do, many would retire. It is only because they can make over 500k doing what they were doing for the past 15 years. Sure there are CME requirements but really? Is there anything much new to learn in private practice? It is usually a refresher more than keeping up with some new thing. 

              • Dr_Cocciolillo

                Member
                September 28, 2020 at 6:55 am

                I wonder if divorce rate among highly paid physicians is similar to the general population. There are 2 competing forces at work
                1. Ill lose my shirt therefore Ill put up with my spouse and what the spouse wants (rad perspective )

                2. Spouse perspective – I can be FI just because my rad spouse makes good money. Divorce it is. I no longer need this person to support me. The courts are gonna give me what I rightfully deserve

                • julie.young_645

                  Member
                  September 28, 2020 at 7:07 am

                  Those I have observed in that status have made extremely poor decisions, although they are excellent radiologists. There is usually some combination of divorce, poor investment (“timing” the market, pursuing bubbles like tech stocks, trusting the investment manager who mistakes a bull market for investment expertise, thinking you know a lot more about stocks than you do, etc.), SPENDING (MULTIPLE “investment” properties that have monthly HOA fees, mortgages, etc., that add up rapidly, new car every year, lavish vacations, redecorating the house room by room and when finished starting all over again, $200k weddings, etc.).
                   
                  Rarely mentioned is paying for the problems of one’s troubled CHILDREN, who end up suffering from their parents’ partying and workaholism. Wilderness schools, drug rehab, supporting grandchildren when the baby-daddy is out of the picture…it adds up. Fast.
                   
                  As I mentioned in another thread, if the people that have found themselves in this position are making the decisions about staffing and vacation, their agendas might not quite match yours, e.g., they might insist on absolute minimal staffing and hiring, and working dangerously lean, so revenue and time off is maximized. Of course, that bludgeons those who are working at any one time, forcing them to read too many studies and read them hazardously fast. 

                  • aaco

                    Member
                    September 28, 2020 at 7:31 am

                    Agree.

                    • aaishafatima999_432

                      Member
                      September 28, 2020 at 7:40 am

                      Been in practice since the late 80’s. 
                      None of the above apply to me. 
                      Still full time. I pay the young rads to take call , at a very generous rate. VERY generous. They value $ over time and less stress. 
                      That’s OK, Win/Win.
                      Just get tired, but could still do it no problem. 
                      Still OK w/ the mental part of it, not demented, etc. 
                      $ has very little to do w/it. 
                      Enjoy the work, feel like I still help folks (why I got into medicine the first place), send lots of $ to WinRed, support local charities, help the kids/grandkids learn to handle finances, invest and respect others and their grandfathers who hit the beach at Normandy and Guadalcanal. 
                      Important stuff to me. Sites worldwide? been there.
                       

                  • Unknown Member

                    Deleted User
                    September 28, 2020 at 7:32 am

                    Quote from DoctorDalai

                    Those I have observed in that status have made extremely poor decisions, although they are excellent radiologists. There is usually some combination of divorce, poor investment (“timing” the market, pursuing bubbles like tech stocks, trusting the investment manager who mistakes a bull market for investment expertise, thinking you know a lot more about stocks than you do, etc.), SPENDING (MULTIPLE “investment” properties that have monthly HOA fees, mortgages, etc., that add up rapidly, new car every year, lavish vacations, redecorating the house room by room and when finished starting all over again, $200k weddings, etc.).

                    Rarely mentioned is paying for the problems of one’s troubled CHILDREN, who end up suffering from their parents’ partying and workaholism. Wilderness schools, drug rehab, supporting grandchildren when the baby-daddy is out of the picture…it adds up. Fast.

                    As I mentioned in another thread, if the people that have found themselves in this position are making the decisions about staffing and vacation, their agendas might not quite match yours, e.g., they might insist on absolute minimal staffing and hiring, and working dangerously lean, so revenue and time off is maximized. Of course, that bludgeons those who are working at any one time, forcing them to read too many studies and read them hazardously fast. 

                    A bit of parenting prejudgement here.
                    I’ve seen great parents with sh!tty kids; and what I see as lousy parents with great kids. It’s a complex beast.
                    Also, people encounter unpredictable hurdles, sick kids [organic and otherwise], personal tragedy, justifiable divorce [too many times on AM it’s always the other persons fault, divorce can happen to 2 good people] etc.
                    Life can be hard.  
                    So in general, living modestly behooves a family all around. It prepares one for the unexpected crises in life. Self insurance in a way. We are lucky to have that opportunity. 
                    Living on the edge, expecting nothing to go wrong, is a fools game.

                    • ester.mancuso_108

                      Member
                      September 28, 2020 at 7:50 am

                      Quote from boomer

                      Quote from DoctorDalai

                      Those I have observed in that status have made extremely poor decisions, although they are excellent radiologists. There is usually some combination of divorce, poor investment (“timing” the market, pursuing bubbles like tech stocks, trusting the investment manager who mistakes a bull market for investment expertise, thinking you know a lot more about stocks than you do, etc.), SPENDING (MULTIPLE “investment” properties that have monthly HOA fees, mortgages, etc., that add up rapidly, new car every year, lavish vacations, redecorating the house room by room and when finished starting all over again, $200k weddings, etc.).

                      Rarely mentioned is paying for the problems of one’s troubled CHILDREN, [b]who end up suffering from their parents’ partying and workaholism. [/b]Wilderness schools, drug rehab, supporting grandchildren when the baby-daddy is out of the picture…it adds up. Fast.

                      As I mentioned in another thread, if the people that have found themselves in this position are making the decisions about staffing and vacation, their agendas might not quite match yours, e.g., they might insist on absolute minimal staffing and hiring, and working dangerously lean, so revenue and time off is maximized. Of course, that bludgeons those who are working at any one time, forcing them to read too many studies and read them hazardously fast. 

                      [b]A bit of parenting prejudgement here. [/b]
                      I’ve seen great parents with sh!tty kids; and what I see as lousy parents with great kids. It’s a complex beast.
                      Also, people encounter unpredictable hurdles, sick kids [organic and otherwise], personal tragedy, justifiable divorce [too many times on AM it’s always the other persons fault, divorce can happen to 2 good people] etc.
                      Life can be hard.  
                      So in general, living modestly behooves a family all around. It prepares one for the unexpected crises in life. Self insurance in a way. We are lucky to have that opportunity. 
                      Living on the edge, expecting nothing to go wrong, is a fools game.

                       
                      Kids end up making their own choices eventually. Don’t take all the credit for their successes because then you set yourself up for thinking you need to take all the blame for their failures. 

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      September 28, 2020 at 8:05 am

                      Working to support a lifestyle until ones life runs out.

                      What pretty cages we build for ourselves.

                    • Melenas

                      Member
                      September 28, 2020 at 8:25 am

                      Why not?
                       
                      I mean whats the point of living?
                       
                      If it is to sit around and eat food. You dont need anything. You can live in a third world country and get by on 10k a year. 
                       
                       
                       

                      Quote from radgrinder

                      Working to support a lifestyle until ones life runs out.

                      What pretty cages we build for ourselves.

                    • DanielQuilli

                      Member
                      September 28, 2020 at 8:43 am

                      I would think at some point one would want to learn new things/skills/endeavors in a way not possible working a full time job. I mean once Ive read 500,000 mammograms I hope I still have the intellectual curiosity to apply myself to some other pursuit.

                    • Melenas

                      Member
                      September 28, 2020 at 9:26 am

                      One would think.

                      Quote from tigershark06

                      I would think at some point one would want to learn new things/skills/endeavors in a way not possible working a full time job. I mean once Ive read 500,000 mammograms I hope I still have the intellectual curiosity to apply myself to some other pursuit.

                    • william.wang_997

                      Member
                      September 28, 2020 at 10:11 am

                      If some one is “waiting” to retire to do stuff, thats pretty sad. If u are able to keep up with your interests/ travel/ things u wanna do while u are working, why would you want to retire ?

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      September 28, 2020 at 10:28 am

                      I love my academic job and plan on working as long as I can. I did get started in medicine about 5 years after traditional grads. I enjoy the cases, helping our clinicians treat the patients, teaching residents and fellows, and collaborating on projects.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      September 28, 2020 at 11:54 am

                      I like what I do. That said, Id rather spend 3/7th of my life doing it rather than 5/7th like I do now.

                    • julie.young_645

                      Member
                      September 28, 2020 at 8:23 am

                      Quote from Pedrad2017

                      Kids end up making their own choices eventually. Don’t take all the credit for their successes because then you set yourself up for thinking you need to take all the blame for their failures. 

                       
                      Eventually, they do. But patterns for such decisions are set by their upbringing. One of my old friends from residency has a daughter who, while in high-school, would climb out a window at midnight so her boyfriend could pick her up and take her to his house, and my friend would go get her from the boyfriend’s house the next morning. She now has a couple of illegitimate kids by a guy who is currently in jail, and my friend will be working until he’s found dead at his workstation to support the extended family. Oh, by the way, the daughter would crash her car about every six months and would receive a brand new one from dear old Dad. 
                       
                      I could go on.  

                • Unknown Member

                  Deleted User
                  September 28, 2020 at 7:23 am

                  Quote from wisdom

                  I wonder if divorce rate among highly paid physicians is similar to the general population. There are 2 competing forces at work
                  1. Ill lose my shirt therefore Ill put up with my spouse and what the spouse wants (rad perspective )

                  2. Spouse perspective – I can be FI just because my rad spouse makes good money. Divorce it is. I no longer need this person to support me. The courts are gonna give me what I rightfully deserve

                  I have seen the above repeatedly amongst some partners. 
                  Wives essentially cash out once the kids are older. Almost like it was a predestined plan all the way.
                  Sad to see.

          • jennycullmann

            Member
            September 28, 2020 at 4:55 pm

            Quote from tigershark06

            A and D in my experience. Its always been very disappointing to me that so many people, not just in radiology, have no passions/intense interests in life and are content to just live out a humdrum routine .

             
            Combine this with mental security and an idea of “leaving money on the table” so keeping on with their boring lives, yes. Most people aren’t risk takers or inertia changers, it’s just how humans are. Especially when everything is silver plattered for them in America, although those days are ending sooner than later.

            • Unknown Member

              Deleted User
              September 28, 2020 at 5:44 pm

              Health insurance costs from age 60-65 can reach 50K per year with plans on the exchange and no subsidy.

              • julie.young_645

                Member
                September 28, 2020 at 5:47 pm

                That is awfully high. I’m paying about $24K for my wife and myself, $8K deductible. 

                • Unknown Member

                  Deleted User
                  September 28, 2020 at 6:03 pm

                  24+8 is 32k, which is roughly 50k after taxes.

                  • Unknown Member

                    Deleted User
                    September 28, 2020 at 6:42 pm

                    Somehow the majority of people who responded to this thread assumed I was talking about why these people did not retire.  That was not my question.  My question was why these people were still going at it FULL TIME, to me it makes sense for 100% of those that are financially independent to drop down to 1/2 time or less.  One person responded that they just like doing radiology so much, perhaps there are a lot more of these kinds of people than I thought.  I myself have other interests and as much as I love them, I could not imagine doing any of them more than 20 hours a week if i no longer needed the pay.  

                    • aldoctc

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 6:32 am

                      Quote from striker79

                      Somehow the majority of people who responded to this thread assumed I was talking about why these people did not retire.  That was not my question.  My question was why these people were still going at it FULL TIME, to me it makes sense for 100% of those that are financially independent to drop down to 1/2 time or less.  One person responded that they just like doing radiology so much, perhaps there are a lot more of these kinds of people than I thought.  I myself have other interests and as much as I love them, I could not imagine doing any of them more than 20 hours a week if i no longer needed the pay.  

                       
                      Responding personally to your original post, my answer would be that I like what I do as it matches my interests and talents, I enjoy the sensation of feeling like I’m making a positive impact on other’s lives and it gives meaning to my life.  Planning on doing it for another 10-12 years.  Currently I have plenty of time off and have hobbies/interests outside of radiology/medicine, however, during the darkest times of the divorce the two things that kept me sane at times were my career and my exercise regimen. .  For perspective, my ex is a doc so I didn’t get tagged with the “lifetime maintenance plan” that seems a fixture of family law these days and my ex and I are pretty frugal so we ended up arguing over assets, not debts.  Divorce was a huge financial hit to be sure, but it’s not like I “have* to work because of it.   From a broader perspective, I’ve seen plenty of examples of the other choices you presented.  
                       
                      As to FT/PT, some practices don’t have the option to go PT or if they do, it can be such a crappy deal that it dissuades rads from doing it.  For example, my current gig has no PT option.  My experience has been that even in practices that do have a PT option there’s dissatisfaction on both sides.  That is, the PT rad feels screwed by his former partners (and frankly, *is*) while the remaining FT rads somehow feel that the PT rad is taking advantage of them, “the system”, or somehow or another being given a “special deal” that they resent.  There’s no getting around human psychology.  
                       
                       

                    • Ali.zavareh

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 9:14 am

                      I know millenials will retire as soon as they are financially independent.

                      You speak for thousands of radiologists? Blanket statements like this are meaningless. Some millennials (even radiologists) like working hard, saving appropriately, and running their own businesses. Not all of us want to live in a split level, buy our clothes at goodwill, and vacation in national parks so we can achieve FIRE at 45. Different strokes for different folks.

                    • jennycullmann

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 9:37 am

                      The other thing is that the corporate and gov’t creep will produce more man hating and diversity/not merit madness, so the really productive people on which all taxes are distributed in what’s left of the economy (mostly the hated white male) will be off to 1099 land and the women and minorities will run the stupid corporations into the ground; they’re half way there already because of “social justice” businesses.

                    • leann2001nl

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 9:57 am

                      It is really sad how much money people were making in the golden age for reading like 4 CTs a day with slices so thick you cant see anything, yet theyre still grinding away because they cant financial plan or reign in their spending like responsible adults. Which results in the job landscape as it is now.

                    • Dr_Cocciolillo

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 10:19 am

                      Not true on many fronts.

                      My PP group didnt start making a lot until they started working a lot. I have salary records from 90s to now.

                      4 cts with hanging all comps was not that easy but that was not in the 90s. Maybe 80s.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      September 29, 2020 at 10:57 am

                      Quote from Casino Royale

                      The other thing is that the corporate and gov’t creep will produce more man hating and diversity/not merit madness, so the really productive people on which all taxes are distributed in what’s left of the economy (mostly the hated white male) will be off to 1099 land and the women and minorities will run the stupid corporations into the ground; they’re half way there already because of “social justice” businesses.

                      There are radiologists who actually believe this racial drivel? That the white male radiologist is oppressed and is having his rightful place in some PP hierarchy usurped by undeserving women and minority radiologists. Hilarious.     

                    • nicolasvg.1003

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 11:29 am

                      Seems like Flounce hasn’t been paying attention to the rhetoric emanating from Trump / the Right in the country for the last few years….. 

                    • aaishafatima999_432

                      Member
                      September 30, 2020 at 7:37 pm

                      We never say that, just for the record.

                    • william.wang_997

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 11:32 am

                      Merit madness ? You really think people in PP get hired or promoted by merit ?

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      September 29, 2020 at 2:13 pm

                      A lot of Casino’s posts eventually devolve into the “persecuted white male complex”.  It’s pretty strange.

                    • skysdad

                      Member
                      September 29, 2020 at 2:41 pm

                      Quote from Casino Royale

                      The other thing is that the corporate and gov’t creep will produce more man hating and diversity/not merit madness, so the really productive people on which all taxes are distributed in what’s left of the economy (mostly the hated white male) will be off to 1099 land and the women and minorities will run the stupid corporations into the ground; they’re half way there already because of “social justice” businesses.

                       
                      Haha okay buddy, do you want a hug?

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      September 29, 2020 at 3:14 pm

                      Casino Royale / Reblablabla or whatever / Castlevania / Fager:
                       
                      Even your idols of the ” alt right ” movement are now focusing on religion, family values. The movement has petered out. Banging chicks abroad is passe.

                    • Unknown Member

                      Deleted User
                      September 29, 2020 at 5:34 pm

                      Not this crap again. 

                    • jennycullmann

                      Member
                      September 30, 2020 at 7:11 pm

                      Quote from irfellowship2020

                      Casino Royale / Reblablabla or whatever / Castlevania / ****er:

                      Even your idols of the ” alt right ” movement are now focusing on religion, family values. The movement has petered out. Banging chicks abroad is passe.

                       
                      Huh?
                       
                      Do I have to post modules I’ve done on implicit bias = you are a racist, you just don’t know it. Now stop working hard, doing better than others, getting to work on time … that makes other races look bad (unreal how funny this actually is in what it really shows).
                       
                      If you honestly think this stuff doesn’t exist, and that many are making money off of it (even worse) you just aren’t paying attention. I’m just reporting the cold hard facts. For that reason I left the gov’t/corporate atmosphere where I actually experienced it.
                       
                      I guess I’m just lying because you guys don’t want to believe reality. Sounds familiar.

                    • enrirad2000

                      Member
                      September 30, 2020 at 7:36 pm

                      Many Rads are supporting multiple family members, and may be the only person making so much money. I am not talking about paying alimony to ex wife and kids, but instead paying for parents, grand parents, siblings, and family members in poor/developing foreign nations where unemployment rates are high.  I personally know few radiologists who are in this situation. Therefore, they can not retire.