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% of Radiologists in Garbage Jobs
Anyone know where to find numbers on % of radiologists in garbage jobs? By garbage I mean all TELERADS and all Corporate jobs. My guesstimate is 30%, but im curious to see some real hard data. And is there site that will show the breakdown over the past several years?
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50 Replies
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But not all teleradiology jobs are garbage, which makes it impossible to accurately poll.
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Well that may be the case in the past couple years after private practices have caught on to use telerads as well, but before then majority of all telerad jobs were garbage.
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As suggested above, a garbage job is defined differently for different people: lifestyle/enough money or work hard/play hard; leisurely pace and chat at the water cooler vs. higher volume and few interactions while you are there, to earn more; all outpatient vs. hospital with tumor boards and committees; teleradiology vs. on site.
It may be better to think of jobs as such: Jobs that most radiologists would consider a good job (few); jobs that could be a good job for some, but not for others (most); and jobs that most radiologists would NOT consider a good job (a minority).
The important thing is to find a group that fits your values, around which you can build the best life for you.
Looking at a job and passing judgement simply based on money and vacation is lacking in important nuance, in my opinion.
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I still don’t understand why all telerad jobs are considered garbage ? Ha ha.
Is this a case of
a) Sour grapes?
b) Extreme jealousy.
c) Extreme ignorance.
d) All of the above.-
Quote from RADD2010
I still don’t understand why all telerad jobs are considered garbage ? Ha ha.
Is this a case of
a) Sour grapes?
b) Extreme jealousy.
c) Extreme ignorance.
d) All of the above.
I think he means corporate telerads. Why? The pay garbage rates.
People are only in them because they are too lazy to look for a better tele job, which do exist and are spreading as rural and semirural practices continue to be unable to hire locally.-
RADD2010
I choose d) all of above
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Quote from RADD2010
I still don’t understand why all telerad jobs are considered garbage ? Ha ha.
Is this a case of
a) Sour grapes?
b) Extreme jealousy.
c) Extreme ignorance.
d) All of the above.Garbage jobs. Its really details about a job that makes them garbage such as:
-1 in 4/1 in 5 on site weekend call-150 + cases/day ,10-12Hrs on site in the hospital.
-3 days of that crap in a row covering 2 to 3 holidays a year.
-Being solely responsible for all minor IR procedures in the practice on day nights/weekendssuch as drainages, and lumbar punctures.
-Hiring senior partners that compel all readers to handle mammography and thus share the medical legal burden-despite the dedicated mammo rads being in the practice that handle breast imaging much more quickly and safely.
-Starting an associate off with anything less than 400K despite demanding top-notch educated talent and same responsibilities as partners.
– Any and all buy-ins of accounts receivable nowadays. And, for that matter, having to overpay for a practice’s own imaging infrastructure, which is a rapidly depreciating asset in this environment.
-Having to live in East Bumf*ck-Hicksville to get an income that can exceed by a small margin what you can get as an IC with 1099 income (and its associated benefits).
-Practice meetings listening to the billers or practice discontents go on for hours.
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garbage is relative so this is inherently pointless. some people have very specific location or schedule constraints so perhaps what you think is “garbage” enables them to lead the life they want.
compared to the golden days where you read 3 CT a day and made stupid money for it, I think a lot of people would call all jobs today “garbage”-
good point. Compared to some other medical specialties who start at 9 and are closed for lunch from 12 to 2, and then close by 4 or 5, and have half days on Fridays, and do not have a gun pointed to their heads in order to meet rvus, almost every radiology job at least in private practice is a garbage job.
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[link=https://www.radiologybusiness.com/topics/leadership/radiology-mentally-demanding-physician-workload-burnout]https://www.radiologybusi…ician-workload-burnout[/link]
Most radiology jobs are garbage and will knowingly or unknowingly destroy your mental and physical health for the sake of money. Its getting worse with increasing RVU requirements and decreasing reimbursement.
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I agree one mans garbage is another mans treasure as they say.
But I would venture to say that at least 50% of current radiology jobs a bad/garbage (whether it is corporate trash, bad tele jobs, or top down PP that take advantage of new associates). Many of these bad jobs a combo of these. I bet there is maybe another 30% plus that are okay ( good and bad things but not downright malignant). IMO 10% or less are actually good jobs. Obviously this depends on the situation those in partnerships feel much differently than those on the outside looking in.
But I can say that most of my friends and colleagues on the young end of things have changed jobs at least once. While some of this was for location purposes most were not.
My 2 cents
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Make sure to add predatory PP job in there.
Either employee tract job with no partnership opportunity but make you work way harder than corps.
Or partnership jobs where they pay you below market for 5 years and then sold on the 4th.
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I peek at the unsolicited headhunter emails from time to time to feel better about my current situation, even when they tend to be the worst of the most u fillable jobs.
I think the current winner was rotating, multi town of in person coverage (so awful commutes), in the middle of nowhere doing abdomen Mr, daily min of 70 to 80 cases, all for 400 starting with long partner track and buy in.
And this was the supposed to be the overly optimistic recruiter pitch.
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There are relatively painful, relatively low-paying, radiologist jobs with relatively little job security, for sure.
But just to introduce some perspective, talk to someone who actually hauls garbage for a living about a position that pays in the top 1% income in the wealthiest country on earth, with over 8 weeks vacation a year, and it is clear that none of these jobs are garbage jobs, it’s just hyperbole.-
Comparing radiologist job and the amount of effort it takes to get there compared to Garbage collector is apples to oranges.
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This number would be impossible to ascertain through objective data as there is no clear definition for “garbage”. Additionally, it depends on someone’s perception of their job and also how long they have been there and whether they are partner or not. I would say about 50% of jobs are now garbage (especially with all the PE groups out there) either with any or all of low pay, excessive workload, and bad lifestyle. 35% of jobs are good (mostly in less desirable places to live-of course that is relative), and 15% are fair/tolerable. For those looking for jobs, the numbers are much different with 80% of jobs being garbage, 10% being good, and 10% being fair/tolerable.
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Great…..GREAT answer. It’s all about perspective. Whenever I start feeling stressed, which is quite often, I try (“TRY” being the operative word here) to realize that we all get paid a crap ton of money. Yes, some more than others. But still, there are countless individuals that would give anything the make a fraction of what we do.
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$20-$30 Rvu = Garbage
$40/RVU = average
$50+/RVU = good
Now there’s other factors like complexity of cases and actual case mix that you enjoy vs what you actually have to do. Weekends, nights, and call could sway you one way or the other? Anyways, Looks like there’s no numbers published on the type of jobs anyone could give. Maybe they should simply do a poll – Rate your current job vs other potential radiologist jobs out there – A)Garbage B) OK C) Great!
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“Garbage jobs” – very condescending towards fellow rads.
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Quote from striker79
$20-$30 Rvu = Garbage
$40/RVU = average
$50+/RVU = good
Is 40/RVU really average and 50 is above average?
Do you have a source for that data? -
Quote from sandeep panga
Quote from striker79
$20-$30 Rvu = Garbage
$40/RVU = average
$50+/RVU = good
Is 40/RVU really average and 50 is above average?
Do you have a source for that data?Those figures sound very anachronistic from a decade ago (probably longer). Or, possibly theyre figures from one imaging contract that generates 3 to 5 studies a day (mobile PET-CT). From personal experience negotiating these deals, hospital networks would be deeply in the red offering that much reimbursement in this day and age. Ive seen high physician reimbursement lead to the broad dismissal of hospitals C-suite execs. Also, hospitals are frequently bought by competing medical networks, which nearly always triggers a re-opening of physician reimbursement contracts.
More likely those figures are cited as an attempt to sway younger rads to populate private practices, instead of academia or teleradiology. You almost cant blame someone for trying to do that. To any young rad, just be skeptical of running into salesmen-like pitches such as this. Theres a reason why the average rad now has been in 5 or more practices, mostly because of getting fooled by some touting the prior/ expired inflated value of his/her private practice. Very few groups are worth a buy-in, or, more than a 6 month-1 year wait for partnership.
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Numbers are very regional
I completely agree with the rvu scale above. But thats in a good payer state. Which typically also comes with high state income taxes -
Much more to a garbage job then simply pay per rvu!
How about the culture, time off, people, location, wRVU goals, equipment you work on, admin, stability, type of cases you read and procedures, brutality of weekend work, etc?
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I already put other factors in there, but rads like to hang their hat on a specific RVU number the way oncologists hang their hat on a specific SUV number. Many factors affect both things, general idea though was to get a sense of how many people are in jobs they dont like much and how much real opporunity is there for the better jobs out there. The “Cyclical Job Market” speak that has been thrown on here forever I think is finally dead as people know this is not a cycle anymore. This is a nail in the coffin for radiology upside. There will be no cycling back to a boom. Most rads got this wrong when they spoke of job market cycling back for years and years. Maybe Dan Corbett can give actual data on the # or percentage of jobs that are stil private practice partnership jobs?
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I would posit that what makes radiology jobs garbage is not tele, onsite, PP or whatever else…none of us control our patients or referral patterns. It is that groups have consistently made the field more commoditized in the interest of TAT, etc. and not pushed back against overutilization, thus all of us are akin to Sisyphus reading the next BS study to keep the hospital admin happy and the list clean. Ridiculously, this has extended to “STAT” inpatients or ER studies ordered by residents and NPs with no actual critical clinical justification to necessitate such. Burn out is, not surprisingly, a linear correlation.
That is no different if you are an on site PP partner or a telerad. At least tele is in PJs and not doing tumor board… -
When was the last time you heard of major malpractice suits on overutilization ? Theres no incentive to do otherwise. Youd think insurance companiesd be all over this
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Any corporate job like RP Mednax envision etc is garbage.
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Lol hospitals would be deeply in read paying 40/rvu, what a joke
Get the trolls/corporate shills out of here
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The whole job market is trending towards garbage. Its all about perception
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My predictions:
1- Radiology job market will be tight for the foreseeable future.
2- We won’t see a significant change in marketshare of Corporates versus academics versus true private practice in the foreseeable future. The whole healthcare will be in a stalemate for the next decade.3- Radiology salaries will stay flat for the next decade but the number of studies/radiology will go up a little bit. In other words, pay/study will be down about 10-15% and the new norm in radiology will be reading 10-15% more than the current volumes.
4- AI won’t have a huge impact in the next decade despite all the hype.
5- The field of IR won’t change that much despite all the excitement about new IR residency.
6- Radiologists will continue to have a good earning but will continue complaining here on auntminnie about how $hitty their job is.
7- As mentioned above, radiologists will read about 10-15% more studies but will still complain on auntminnie about burning out and will CLAIM that they are looking for a lifestyle job and less work. But in practice, they are the ones who will vote to read more studies rather than hiring.
8- Old habits barely change.
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9. Auntminnie forum continues to troll corp and tele, so to keep enough supply for PP sweatshop, more important than ever for their income after medicare cut
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The more things change the more they stay the same!! Right
As for some of the points previously mentioned I think it is highly likely that the market will stagnate for rad pay over the next 5-10 yrs or even go down, especially with Medicare cuts if they stay. As mentioned it will lead to demands for reading cases faster, which will increase the number of crap job (well over 50% now). The job market will tighten like 2008-2009 and groups will remake position to be nonpartner to take advantage of those in search of jobs without options, hence more garbage work.
But I disagree that the consolidation in healthcare is going to stop. If anything it will worsen especially because recent financial/economic mismanagement by governors and congress. Many remaining independent practices and health system with fall in line and join with local corporate lords in the name of increasing access to care whether this local academic health system creep or corporate meds. This will also in turn increase the number of crappy jobs leading to many young rads forced to take bad jobs (its not easy to change course in medicine we arent midlevels who can decide one day we a rad experts and the next day run the cardiac expert because we changed jobs).
I also disagree about IR. IR and DR are heading for a divorce ,especially as the old guard of part time IRs retire with their golden parachutes. In my short time practicing Ive already seen many more IRs move to independent practices or join other specialist like VS or Cards. This trend is only going to accelerate and may lead to more garbage jobs as DR positions within hospital weaken especially once the pseudo exclusive contracts are killed off and independent IR can get their own privileges at local hospitals.
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The high debt will imprison the young rads.
Bad decisions, bad luck, golden handcuffs and lack of other things to do will keep the older rads reading cases until they cant.
We will have plenty of rads to do the work no matter what the conditions or pay are. No matter how hard we complain.
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Auntminnie forum continues to troll corp and tele, so to keep enough supply for PP sweatshop, more important than ever for their income after medicare cut
I honestly think this is a trope, however common here, that has no bearing to reality.
Neither I nor any PP radiologist Im aware of has ever spoken negatively of Telerad jobs or corporate jobs in order to have more trainees to exploit as employees in our sweatshops. If I say something negative about a job, it’s because I think there’s something negative about the job and that the applicant should be aware of. It is true that I don’t think these corporate telerad jobs are the best first jobs for most rads coming out of training, and that someone who sacrifices their career development to read in their underwear may ultimately have no career development nor have any underwear. Errr, or something like. You know what I mean.
Trainees should take an honest look at all their options and do whats best for them, no one can fault them for that. But thinking that older radiologists in the community wish younger radiologists harm is untrue and unfair. It hurts the camaraderie for no good reason.
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Quote from RVU
Quote from sandeep panga
Quote from striker79
$20-$30 Rvu = Garbage
$40/RVU = average
$50+/RVU = good
Do you have a source for that data?
Those figures sound very anachronistic from a decade ago (probably longer). Or, possibly theyre figures from one imaging contract that generates 3 to 5 studies a day (mobile PET-CT). From personal experience negotiating these deals, hospital networks would be deeply in the red offering that much reimbursement in this day and age. Ive seen high physician reimbursement lead to the broad dismissal of hospitals C-suite execs. Also, hospitals are frequently bought by competing medical networks, which nearly always triggers a re-opening of physician reimbursement contracts.
More likely those figures are cited as an attempt to sway younger rads to populate private practices, instead of academia or teleradiology. You almost cant blame someone for trying to do that. To any young rad, just be skeptical of running into salesmen-like pitches such as this. Theres a reason why the average rad now has been in 5 or more practices, mostly because of getting fooled by some touting the prior/ expired inflated value of his/her private practice. Very few groups are worth a buy-in, or, more than a 6 month-1 year wait for partnership.
Actually I was thinking those numbers sound very low for private practice. They sound like telerad rates. -
The worst sweat shop private practice job is like heaven compared to the best teleradiology or corporate job.
I would rather be unemployed than work for another Radiology Corporation.
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The PP rads that I came across in my 1st job were the most greedy and cruel human beings that I have ever come across. My fear of radiology colleagues as predators comes from PP experience and my telerad gig is awesome.
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When working for a corporation youre going to be treated as essentially livestock that can make them RVUs. They will pay you as little as possible.
They will also skimp on things like equipment and techs and your image quality is going to be trash, your techs will be underpaid, underqualified, and disgruntled, and you will wind up working for at least one or two MBA managers who treat you like a McDonalds employee because they attended a Six Sigma course and an online correspondence degree on how to be a manager.
Your contract will be essentially meaningless and subject to change based on corporate whims, new investment bankers buying out the corporation, or just any excuse they can come up with.
Your physician colleagues will either be disgruntled, hate you because they think that maybe you are being more efficient for less money, or simply ignore you.
And in the end if you have any problems like reimbursement, benefits, etc. youll just be bounced around a chain of emails to people who never answer messages and make the VA look efficient.
The biggest mistake doctors made was giving away our authority and working for people who arent physicians.
Corporations look at the bottom dollar and everything will be cheap as hell and your input as a physician will be ignored.
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Ive experience both situations.
Plenty of greedy ass PP rads who dont give a flying expletive about associates or future partners as long as the gravy train doesnt stop. Many of these group also dont care about the quality of what they put out either.
Ive also seen the corporatist who could care less about you( any rad for that matter) or the quality of care as long as they cant keep shoveling money into the trough for the investors. They have no bones about skimping of product or quality, if they can save a few bucks on the ledger to show their boss or CEO. A guy from RP admitted as much to me about a couple years back.
Overall the state of radiology and medicine in this country is pretty much a cesspool at this point. But as others have stated once youre shackled with debt from training there isnt much you can do about. Weve all become high priced fast food workers!
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Situations like these is why Radiologists discuss and start threads about net worth, short successful careers, and FI/RE in case anybody was wondering.
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Quote from CaptainWaffles
I peek at the unsolicited headhunter emails from time to time to feel better about my current situation, even when they tend to be the worst of the most u fillable jobs.
I think the current winner was rotating, multi town of in person coverage (so awful commutes), in the middle of nowhere doing abdomen Mr, daily min of 70 to 80 cases, all for 400 starting with long partner track and buy in.
And this was the supposed to be the overly optimistic recruiter pitch.
They read 70-80 body MR per day at minimum?
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Quote from IR27
Quote from CaptainWaffles
I think the current winner was rotating, multi town of in person coverage (so awful commutes), in the middle of nowhere doing abdomen Mr, daily min of 70 to 80 cases, all for 400 starting with long partner track and buy in.
They read 70-80 body MR per day at minimum?
I call shenanigans.
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Garbage jobs often have garbage hours like nights or evenings, which for most people are intolerable/not sustainable.
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The evening and night jobs exist to make the other jobs less garbage.
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LOL @ the poster saying starting an associate at anything under 400k is garbage!
For a job on a partner track in a desirable location, with decent volume and benefits, I’ve found nothing even close to that.
Buy-in’s I agree are annoying, but in the practice I joined we get the buy-in back if we leave the group or when we retire, so not the end of the world.
The best balance I found was 3xx starting with decent vacation, lower end work volume, and short partner track with a ‘ok’ buy in cost, with partner income and vacation top quartile. With how much radiology is evolving, I have no clue if the job could completely change in the next couple years, but unless you go the academic route or move to BUFU, there is no real certainty in the near future, so any job could be a garbage job. -
From the flyer:
Case Mix: No less than 80% Body MRI, remaining work will be non-interventional diagnostic. Requires up to date MQSALater in email with much smaller font:
Expected productivity is 90 to 100 studies per day, from beginning of contract.Its vague and poorly written, but it sure seems like an awful Mr volume and then also some radiographs or cts to increase the pain. I guess if you read 30 prostates and 50 cxr your rvu mix would be 80/20
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Sorry to hear. The job that you have described sounds painful. It is good to have insight….hope u can find a better gig.
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Quote from RADD2010
Quote from MRImadman
Garbage jobs. Its really details about a job that makes them garbage such as:
-1 in 4/1 in 5 on site weekend call-150 + cases/day ,10-12Hrs on site in the hospital.
-3 days of that crap in a row covering 2 to 3 holidays a year.
-Being solely responsible for all minor IR procedures in the practice on day nights/weekendssuch as drainages, and lumbar punctures.
-Hiring senior partners that compel all readers to handle mammography and thus share the medical legal burden-despite the dedicated mammo rads being in the practice that handle breast imaging much more quickly and safely.
-Starting an associate off with anything less than 400K despite demanding top-notch educated talent and same responsibilities as partners.
– Any and all buy-ins of accounts receivable nowadays. And, for that matter, having to overpay for a practice’s own imaging infrastructure, which is a rapidly depreciating asset in this environment.
-Having to live in East Bumf*ck-Hicksville to get an income that can exceed by a small margin what you can get as an IC with 1099 income (and its associated benefits).
-Practice meetings listening to the billers or practice discontents go on for hours.Sorry to hear. The job that you have described sounds painful. It is good to have insight….hope u can find a better gig.
No reason to be sorry. That was the composite experience of myself and several I know who have had unfortunate dealings with top-down PP groups, which are a majority of groups unfortunately. Ive safely avoided them over a decade ago. Been much happier, healthier and more prosperous taking alternative routes in radiology like teleradiology.
I hope posts like in this thread would help out any young rad in training or starting out. Incorporating oneself and legally deferring income will make one multi-mils in 10-15 years time. “Buying-in” on a declining PP asset (or even worse a practice name) is tantamount to burning a big pile of cash. Dont take the blue pill and endlessly seek PP nirvana. It exists in very few places.
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