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Woke train is off the rails
Its my opinion and the opinion of many that the woke industrial complex is out of control. Joe Rogan is but the latest example of the absurdity. The rock supported him then backtracked (this coming from the guy who called someone a tranvestite). Biden did the same thing Rogan did on video yet somehow the context matters in that case.
This country doesnt care about free speech anymore. It cares about control and mob politics. Youre either with the woke mob or you will be struck down by any means necessary no matter how disingenuous. They will hypocritically attempt to destroy one guys livelihood while others who have done the same get a free pass if they are on the correct side. Its pitiful the state of affairs on both sides to be honest, but the woke mob is the topic of this thread. I dont want to hear how bad the far right is because I wont be able to defend their absurdity either. Im talking about the topic of woke nonsense. M
If youre a wokester, change my mind. If youre not then feel free to say your piece.
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434 Replies
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I think people that use the word woke are woke.
Joe Rogan does spread a lot of BS and he does it under the ruse of “I want to hear other opinions”. Thinking he’s ridiculous for that doesn’t make woke. I know he like to pump up ivermectin. Is that really sound medicine? Then he’ll say something like I’m cancelled by cancel culture. WTF even is that. If you’re an entertainer and people don’t like the waft of your BS, oh well. You’re not entitled to anything.
As far as his comedy goes. I can take it or leave it. I think comedy has been about pushing boundaries for a long time. If you’re offended by him saying the N word or whatever, you don’t have to listen. It’s not like that’s just him either.-
Its not about agreeing with what he has to say. I dont agree with half the crap he says. However he should not be attacked for what is his right in a free society. We cant go stifling free speech just because it triggers someone
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How is his free speech being stifled? He’s amplified by a large platform to a lot of people. Nobody’s stopping him from saying whatever he wants. Isn’t it my free speech not to support him, or his program?
This is sort of like Trump talking about how bad he’s treated. If you want positive than perhaps be positive. You reap what you sow.-
People are actively trying to get him cancelled. Even the whitehouse and politicians have weighed in. Not sure what you need to happen for it to be an assault against free speech? There is a line and it is being crossed.
The point being made is the absurdity of the woke mob. Everyone must be cancelled it they dont conform to the woke political propaganda machine. Its not enough for them just to not listen to him. They want to wipe him off the airwaves so to speak
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People boycott entities for political reasons all the time. It is its own free speech action.
Joe Rogans constitutional protection for free speech does not mandate a private company giving him a platform.
Citizens are free to exercise their free speech rights to speak out against speech they find objectionable.
Citizens are free to exercise their economic rights to pressure private companies into taking action.
Private companies are free to decide whether or not they wish to respond to said economic pressure.
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence of speech.
I have absolutely no problem with Spotify artists/ consumers exercising their own free speech rights to convince the company to remove Joe Rogan.
Am I personally dropping my account? Nope. I don’t think the boycott efforts are likely to be successful, either in getting Rogan removed from mainstream platform or as a political exercise.
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The planet of the apes comments and bantering after thats was just a tad bit over the top
But hey joe said he wasnt racist so that makes it OK
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It’s still a mystery to me who he is and why I should care.
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Quote from fw
It’s still a mystery to me who he is and why I should care.
I always chuckle when people post these types of comments.
Imagine commenting about someone you don’t care about.-
So you care.
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And Spotify isn’t an American company, so shouldn’t winge about them not caring about the first amendment.
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Quote from walshnuc
And Spotify isn’t an American company, so shouldn’t winge about them not caring about the first amendment.
There is no first amendment concern in the Rogan case.
Spotify is a private company and is free to host or not host speech as it sees fit (barring incitement and other non-protected speech). Whether or not it is HQd in the US makes no difference.-
I agree fw and dergon.
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Oh, scary thought, Im being called woke
Idiot argument by snowflakes offended by woke-ness.
When Larry Flint was alive with his Hustler magazine (tame by todays porn standards), the Right tried to shut his platform down for years & always failed. The fact that I did not buy or read his magazine absolutely never meant I, as a woke person was trying to deny Larry a platform & his 1st Amendment rights. I did not support Larry because his magazine was in poor taste & not exactly high level reading to my taste. But then Larry was not accused of serial lying either.
By the same token, I fully supported Larrys efforts defending his own 1st Amendment free speech rights.And that said, I also do not subscribe to Spotify.
I also cancelled my cable TV subscription as thats where Fox gets its funding. I do not have to support Foxs lies either just because Im afraid someone will accuse me of being woke & trying to deny Fox a platform to lie using my money.
I welcome the pushback against serial liars like Joe & Fox.
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Larry Flint is completely different than Joe Rogan.
With Flint there *was* a clear first amendment issue because the government was the entity trying to restrict the speech. ([b]The People[/b] vs Larry Flint)
There is no similar first amendment concern in the Rogan case. It is about private entities.
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Quote from dergon
Larry Flint is completely different than Joe Rogan.
With Flint there *was* a clear first amendment issue because the government was the entity trying to restrict the speech. ([b]The People[/b] vs Larry Flint)
There is no similar first amendment concern in the Rogan case. It is about private entities.
The argument being made by the Right is all about 1st Amendment free speech rights. Thats exactly what they are selling to the boobs. It is exactly what BIG boy explicitly stated in his opening post.
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Yes. And I was pointing out that the “right” is completely wrong about the first amendment in this case (and in the entire arena of “de-platforming”)
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On that I do agree. Its a made up BS argument.
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Thats not the main point I was trying to make. My main point was to address woke mob politics. Seems its easier to just pick apart what is first amendment and if attacked or not. Thats fine if you dont think the government is trying to intervene in first amendment issues. It seems a bunch of snowflakes are easily triggered in this thread. The point is that the woke mob attacks whoever doesnt represent their views via any means necessary. It doesnt matter if Biden did the same thing as Rogan or if the rock called someone a transvestite in the past. They dont care about that because those people have their same political views.
But instead of addressing this all we got was first amendment wasnt involved in this case. Blah blah blah. Lets say its not involved. Doesnt change the fact that the far left woke mob only hypocritically attacks those who arent on their side. Hard to defend that I know which is why I dont see any explanations for it.
Gina Carano and whoopi goldberg are good examples. One was cancelled while the other given a slap on the wrist. The woke left mob is often happy to offer forgiveness to their constituents (although not always and plenty examples of that as well)
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To which I say
one person’s “woke mob” is another person’s “concerned citizens exercising their first amendment rights to free speech and association”
As I said above, I don’t personally think the attack against Rogan is particularly effective or helpful, but if people want to challenge him and pressure private companies to change their behavior they are just as much within their rights as Rogan is to drop n-bombs and say that Ivermectin is a miracle drug . -
But but but
We are all gazpacho type evil because some kids are wearing masks
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Joes skills remain with his ability to get people to drink donkeys piss & semen. He lives on no higher plane than that. If he actually gets deplatformed he can return to gourmet piss & semen. I will celebrate that day he rediscovers his calling.
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
People are actively trying to get him cancelled. Even the whitehouse and politicians have weighed in. Not sure what you need to happen for it to be an assault against free speech? There is a line and it is being crossed.
The point being made is the absurdity of the woke mob. Everyone must be cancelled it they dont conform to the woke political propaganda machine. Its not enough for them just to not listen to him. They want to wipe him off the airwaves so to speak
It’s their right to do so. free speech works both ways. Woke and cancel culture is a made up boogie man.
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Quote from fw
It’s still a mystery to me who he is and why I should care.
I have never listened to a minute of it except as presented in news clips.
But as for the “why I should care” part… he reaches an audience of over 10 million people. That is bigger than all the cable news talking heads combined.-
Quote from dergon
Quote from fw
It’s still a mystery to me who he is and why I should care.
I have never listened to a minute of it except as presented in news clips.
But as for the “why I should care” part… he reaches an audience of over 10 million people. That is bigger than all the cable news talking heads combined.
After hearing about Rogans popularity, I tried listening to him to see why.
A mystery. Hes an idiot shilling right wing disinformation & getting rich doing it.
I do however enjoy the other Rogan who goes by the name of Seth. His nonsense is enjoyable.
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Off Pol [i][b]is[/b][/i] a woke mob, BIG
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Yeah I just want to hear an explanation for the woke mob hypocrisy from the horses mouth. Instead all I get are passive aggressive straw man attacks like gazpacho evil masks blah blah blah. Its hard for them to offer a logical explanation.
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Spreading anti vaccine info just makes you an idiot
But laughing about black people and comparing them
To apes from planet of the apes then somehow saying But Im not racistIm sorry but if thinking the arsewipe should be off the air makes me woke
Then ok Im woke
You win the argument
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
Yeah I just want to hear an explanation for the woke mob hypocrisy from the horses mouth. Instead all I get are passive aggressive straw man attacks like gazpacho evil masks blah blah blah. Its hard for them to offer a logical explanation.
You need to explain how my not purchasing a commercial product that I dont like is somehow infringing on Rogans 1st Amendment rights & makes me woke, therefore anti-free speech.
The onus is on you to make the argument-
Dude just wants to start a stupid argument
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
Yeah I just want to hear an explanation for the woke mob hypocrisy from the horses mouth. Instead all I get are passive aggressive straw man attacks like gazpacho evil masks blah blah blah. Its hard for them to offer a logical explanation.
I don’t see the behavior as necessarily hypocritical either.
Is there the possibility that the behavior has a chilling effect on legitimate speech that should be heard? Yes. That is a fair concern.
OTOH, the days where the majority of the population believed that the best, most truthful speech would win out in the end simply because it was truthful or better are now long gone.
Many in this “woke mob” are highly engaged, highly concerned citizen fearing that the speech of Rogan his ilk is so pervasive and far reaching that it is damaging our society and our democracy more than the benefit that is gained from letting the speech stand.
As an analogy, when bikers rev their engines it’s loud and annoying to most people. When they do it at a graveyard during a memorial sevice it is [b]very[/b] annoying.
But when they rev their engines at funeral because it prevents the Westboro Baptist Church from harassing the parents of dead gay kids calling them soulless f*ggots over megaphones, then there’s a net benefit in doing so.
(In this analogy, the people pressuring Spotify to drop Rogan are the bikers, Rogan is the Westboro Baptist Church, and American society are the parents)
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And then
there is that woke mob who dont want their innocent children taught that slavery actually existed
Because they might feel bad
But of course they arent woke snowflakes at all. They are just protecting their poor childrens fragility so they may someday be able to accept their participation trophies
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Quote from dergon
Quote from sartoriusBIG
Yeah I just want to hear an explanation for the woke mob hypocrisy from the horses mouth. Instead all I get are passive aggressive straw man attacks like gazpacho evil masks blah blah blah. Its hard for them to offer a logical explanation.
I don’t see the behavior as necessarily hypocritical either.
Is there the possibility that the behavior has a chilling effect on legitimate speech that should be heard? Yes. That is a fair concern.
OTOH, the days where the majority of the population believed that the best, most truthful speech would win out in the end simply because it was truthful or better are now long gone.
Many in this “woke mob” are highly engaged, highly concerned citizen fearing that the speech of Rogan his ilk is so pervasive and far reaching that it is damaging our society and our democracy more than the benefit that is gained from letting the speech stand.
As an analogy, when bikers rev their engines it’s loud and annoying to most people. When they do it at a graveyard during a memorial sevice it is [b]very[/b] annoying.
But when they rev their engines at funeral because it prevents the Westboro Baptist Church from harassing the parents of dead gay kids calling them soulless f*ggots over megaphones, then there’s a net benefit in doing so.
(In this analogy, the people pressuring Spotify to drop Rogan are the bikers, Rogan is the Westboro Baptist Church, and American society are the parents)
Chitown you should spend some time reading dergon’s response here. He is “left” of me in a few areas and IMO roots too hard for the home team to be productive in political conversation, but his analogies are usually spot on.
This is not a free speech issue. Rogan benefitted from his platform when it looked like one could get away with thinly veiled bigotry in the name of “conservatism” and being “anti-woke”. He has to expect to pay the price when those who provided the platform change their minds do to the will of the listeners.
It’s a free country!
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If the White house asked Spotify to silence Rogan we would have a first amendment issue.
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Funny I said forget the first amendment and nobody wants to offer an explanation to my main point. Lets say for the sake of argument there is 100% no freedom of speech issue here. It doesnt change the fact that cancel culture is wrong. Cancelling someone is not the same as a boycott. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything and Im not disputing that. And sure being part of the woke mob and their attempt to cancel someone is also not in any way shape or form illegal. However that doesnt make it right. Frankly its childish and akin to a boy complaining to his mother because he didnt like what his brother said to him. The same woke mob is also a bunch of fragile little snowflakes that need safe spaces and cant tolerate other opinions. Everything must be regulated. Nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable in their opinion. I feel bad for all the children growing up in these households because they wont know how to deal with any type of adversity.
Bill Maher has been pretty much hitting the nail on the head about these issues the last two years. Ive been watching his show for over a decade and its funny that a democrat comedian is one of the only public figures to speak the truth.
The truth is also that there are a lot of rational dems out there like myself that feel the same way. Ive been registered democrat since being able to vote. I can no longer support this nonsense and a lot or others will vote the same way. Watch the democrats crump in the midterms. Next president also wont be democrat. Youll still be asking yourself why it happened.
But hey keep up the strawman tricks. Dont actually acknowledge the root of the problem in the Democratic party at your own peril. The voters will decide.
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Why arent the people who want to ban critical race theory
Something that isnt even taught in our grades 1-12
Why are they OK but everyone else is part of the woke mob
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I never said there werent crazies on both sides. It was kinda nice being a democrat under the 8 years of Obama. Now Im ashamed of what the party has become. A small minority of whiny 3 year olds and a majority within the party that acquiesces to it. I can almost guarantee that people will be tired of it come election time. I kind of enjoy the dems like Zucker, cuomo x2 etc getting caught up in this. At some point it will hit critical mass and backfire when too many cancellers befome the cancelled.
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Puhlease. Cancel culture is allegedly a brand new thing? Is every snowflake a Millennial with no knowledge or experience before the year 2000? Sponsors & corporations were cancelling people for their politics long before. Whine as much as they like but reality is people lost their platforms for their politics in the 50s through the 70s and bracketed at both ends to boot into before the 50s and after the 70s.
I call Bullsh1te on all this cancel culture is a new & left wing thing. Get some history under your belts.
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Im honestly trying to understand why one is side is called woke for being upset about a guy who equates black people to planet of the apes and laughs hysterically about it
But those who dont want their kids to be about slavery because they might feel bad are patriots and good parents
Again not real sure what the original poster is arguing
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Im honestly trying to understand why one is side is called woke for being upset about a guy who equates black people to planet of the apes and laughs hysterically about it
But those who dont want their kids to be about taught slavery because they might feel bad are patriots and good parents
Again not real sure what the original poster is arguing
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Nice try on the strawman buddy. Put words in my mouth and and mischaracterize my argument. I think Im done here. Youve proved my point. The left it hypocritical and this woke mob is akin to a religion. And you cant persuade or get real insight out of someone who believes something as a matter of faith
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Google bill maher and woke in youtube. Watch those clips. Bill Maher is a true liberal.
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So basically you can only argue by your rules
Simple question
Why is one side woke
And the other who are not only trying to do the same thing but pass laws to make it illegal
Well they are fine people
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The Russians sure know how to speak the language of the American grievance Right:
Sergei Naryshkin, head of Russian foreign intelligence: “The masks are off. The West isn’t simply trying to close off Russia behind a new iron curtain. This is about an attempt to ruin our government – to ‘cancel’ it, as they now say in “tolerant” liberal-fascist circles.”
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Saw clips on Fox News of some dots saying were trying to cancel Russia. Russia just another victim of cancel culture.
Tonight on Tucker Pol Pots only crime was being too sexy
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[b]The Battle of Reedy Creek[/b][/h1]
[link=https://floridapolitics.com/archives/518189-rick-wilson-the-battle-of-reedy-creek/]Rick Wilson[/link]: Even for Floridians, Reedy Creek is obscure; a small, strange legal fiction created by the State of Florida for Walt Disney World in 1972. It was an utterly esoteric remnant in state law until Gov. Ron DeSantis set his sights on breaking Disney to his will
This stunt is all about giving DeSantis more ammunition in his nonstop culture war as he prepares to primary Donald Trump in 2024, and the Florida Legislature has covered itself in infamy for playing his game. Just as Washington Republicans lived in terror of Trumps horde, Florida House and Senate Republicans live in fear of DeSantis and his mob, including the ones who troll on the taxpayers dime.
As Americas hottest new dictator-curious Trump-manque, DeSantis signed an instantly notorious Dont Say Gay bill this spring as part of his nascent 2024 presidential campaign. Like almost every Republican moral panic and trolling operation (but I repeat myself), it was a divisive piece of legislative arson presented as a response to an imaginary threat.-
I think they fished themselves. The Florida government that is. The LT Gov went on newsmax and something along the lines of if the change their wokeness we would rethink our position. Whats the word for that? Maybe bribery or something like that. Also if simply changing their minds on this means theyre no longer groomers maybe they werent that to begin with. Id think Disney lawyers could have a field day with just 5 minutes of newsmax interview.
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the word is “extortion”
Newsmax host Eric Bolling: “Is there an opportunity for Disney to change their mind and say we will disregard this whole ‘woke’ agenda…and would the governor then say, ‘fine, you can keep your status but we’re gonna keep an eye on you now’?”
Florida Lt. Gov: “Sure!”
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Truth Social, marketed as the uncensored alternative to Twitter, embraces cancel culture …
[link=https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F2022%2Fdigital%2Fnews%2Ftrumps-truth-social-is-banning-users-who-post-about-jan-6-hearings-according-to-reports-1235290726%2Famp%2F]https://variety.com/2022/digital/new…235290726/amp/[/link]Truth Social reportedly banning members who post jan 6 updates
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[link=https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-judge-blocks-anti-woke-law-on-schools-and-businesses-2022-8]https://www.businessinsid…-and-businesses-2022-8[/link]
[h1]Florida judge blocks Gov. Ron DeSantis-backed ‘Stop WOKE Act,’ saying the state has turned into the upside-down world from ‘Stranger Things'[/h1]
“In the popular television series Stranger Things, the ‘upside down’ describes a parallel dimension containing a distorted version of our world,” Walker, a nominee of then-President Barack Obama, [link=https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22140127/preliminary-injunction-order-honeyfund-v-desantis.pdf]wrote in his opinion[/link]. “Recently, Florida has seemed like a First Amendment upside down.”
“Normally, the First Amendment bars the state from burdening speech, while private actors may burden speech freely,” Walker continued. “But in Florida, the First Amendment apparently bars private actors from burdening speech, while the state may burden speech freely.”
…
The law targeted what many Republicans call “critical race theory.” Formally, critical race theory examines racism in US institutions stemming from slavery and the Jim Crow era. Democrats have argued it’s mostly taught in law schools, and defenders of DEI trainings say they’re necessary to prevent implicit bias, discrimination, and racism.
[/QUOTE]
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God doesnt make junk.
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[h1]Democrats May Be Winning the Culture Wars[/h1] [link=https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/09/democrats-culture-wars-abortion-00055818]Politico[/link] –
Its already the consensus that abortion is going to be a good issue for Democrats in November.
Whats only now becoming clear as Republicans scrub their campaign websites of prior positions on abortion and labor to turn the focus of the midterms back to President Joe Biden and the economy is just how much the issue is altering the GOPs standard playbook.
For the first time in years, Republican and Democratic political professionals are preparing for a general election campaign in which Democrats not Republicans may be winning the culture wars, a wholesale reversal of the traditional political landscape that is poised to reshape the midterms and the run-up to 2024.
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Good. Ive always said Im socially very liberal but fiscally conservative. Ive had left leaners tell me I cant be because one needs to spend a lot of money to be socially liberal. Maybe they were wrong?
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Fascinating definition — Interested in others’ opinions
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“Florida is where woke goes to die,” DeSantis said after his reelection victory last month.
Last week, a federal judge asked his general counsel to define woke.
DeSantis’ general counsel, a former Alito clerk and FedSoc guy, answered[b] woke is “the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them.[/b]-
Im no lawyer but probably not the best definition for desantis own general counsel to win his case
Thats a pretty low bar to jump over with multiple examples
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Hell, he just dismissed justice as an American value.
Florida. Where justice is killed.
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Frank Bruni in NYT :
“”And the signature line from his stump speech is that Florida is [link=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ron-desantis-florida-where-woke-goes-to-die-midterm-election-win/]where woke goes to die[/link]. Im with him on the destructiveness of peak wokeness, but base-camp wokeness has some lessons and virtues, which a sensible centrist might acknowledge and reflect on. Cant Florida be where woke goes to decompress in the sun and surf and re-emerge in more relaxed form?”” -
I rather like the lawyers own explanation, it cuts to the chase.
[i]DeSantis’ general counsel, a former Alito clerk and FedSoc guy, answered[b] woke is “the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them.[/b] [/i] -
In Texas it would appear they’re banning or not funding any higher education that has an office of diversity, equity and inclusion.
Anyone working at a place that doesn’t have a department for DEI? Or something like that.
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[link=https://www.wsj.com/articles/woke-is-a-bad-word-for-a-real-threat-to-american-democracy-cancel-culture-freedom-11637184284]https://www.wsj.com/artic…re-freedom-11637184284[/link]
Or read this article and educate yourself.
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We dont have to call it woke if you dont want. Lets just call it the radical left. The radical right is worse. But the problem is the majority in the left acquiesce more to the radical left than the majority right does to the far right
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At what point though does someone cross the line?
As I said before
If you want to preach misinformation and disinformation about vaccines and medical treatment thats just stupid
But when you get caught calling an inner city movie theatre planet of the apes because of black
Patrons then proceed to laugh hysterically about it but claim you arent racist?Well thats a little bit different of a story
Perhaps thats why the Rock as you say backtracked
People have the right to cancel
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So do you support cancelling the rock for calling someone a transvestite? Please clarify thanks.
Also Biden also used the N word with video tape evidence of it. Should he be cancelled and impeached?
Rogan is ultimately a comedian and said this over a decade ago. Was it a bad joke and in poor taste? Sure. Is he a racist? No.
Please answer the questions if you are intellectually honest.
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Im fine with whoever wants to cancel
WhoNo skin off my arse
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Rogan is ultimately a comedian and said this over a decade ago. Was it a bad joke and in poor taste? Sure. Is he a racist? No.
Uhhhhhhhmmmmm
NO
Dudes definitely a racist
Called the black race Apes
That wasnt a joke
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Ok. Rock and Biden should be cancelled next. Trudeau should be cancelled for wearing blackface. Whoopi goldberg for demeaning Jews. The list keeps growing. Lets cancel everyone!
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Fine go ahead
Again absolutely no skin off my arse
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Sounds like the biggest list of people to be cancelled is coming form you, BIG, not your Left-wing demons. Which would indicate a manufactured issue.
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I think Im done with this section of the forum. Its an echo chamber with essentially the same 4 people on each thread. These 4 people are experts in manufactured issues and the propaganda of the far left. I will leave it to their expertise.
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
“If youre a wokester, change my mind. If youre not then feel free to say your piece.”
1 day later …
Quote from sartoriusBIG
I think Im done with this section of the forum. Its an echo chamber with essentially the same 4 people on each thread. These 4 people are experts in manufactured issues and the propaganda of the far left. I will leave it to their expertise.
In summary:
Enter forum.
Solicit opinion of forum participants.
Forum participants give opinion.
Disregard/ show disdain for said opinion.
Leave forum.
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Bye Felicia
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Quote from dergon
Quote from sartoriusBIG
“If youre a wokester, change my mind. If youre not then feel free to say your piece.”
1 day later …
Quote from sartoriusBIG
I think Im done with this section of the forum. Its an echo chamber with essentially the same 4 people on each thread. These 4 people are experts in manufactured issues and the propaganda of the far left. I will leave it to their expertise.
In summary:
Enter forum.
Solicit opinion of forum participants.
Forum participants give opinion.
Disregard/ show disdain for said opinion.
Leave forum.
Don’t forget the use of pejoratives, the best way to encourage civilized discourse. -
A patriotic very non WOKE plan by florida governor
Definitely not woke or snowflake like
Florida Advances Bill That Would Ban Making White People Feel Bad About Racism, and No, Thats Not a Joke
[link=https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/01/florida-sb-148-racism-discomfort/amp]https://www.vanityfair.co…-racism-discomfort/amp[/link]
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These guys are all about censoring the truth, they don’t care about other people, it’s all a lie. Don’t ask any questions even, like we do in science, that might get you cancelled by the ADL – and most on here would support it, as they have testified.
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Oh good, the conspiracy theorist that thinks American women aren’t feminine or deferential enough is here to save the day…
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Joe Rogan is searching for the truth like OJ Simpson is searching for the guy who killed his wife.
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I hear O.J. has some good reliable information on who might have done the double murder.
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The Dergon OJ joke reminded me of this skit from I Think You Should Leave Now.
Who drove this hotdog shaped car in here?
[link]https://youtu.be/WLfAf8oHrMo[/link]
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I’ve given you reasoned arguments, both legal and ethical, and thus far received nothing but “woke mob” in reply.
I’ve engaged in good faith. I would love it if you stuck around and did the same.-
Chitown, I believe dergon that he would love it if you stuck around and played fairly. Me too. You really havent done a very good job of explaining why your idea that woke is evil and its terrible that Rogan was canceled from a platform for spewing thinly veiled racist commentary.
However, I do have a similar frustration when I see the board each day with the same three people linking messages that they agree with and little reasoned commentary. I have tried to engage them in with a more nuanced approach. Its hard for me to see how any of what I have said is controversial. Critical perhaps. I know Frumi wont respond anymore because he thinks my attacks on him are because I am part of the evil right. Hard for him to see past any personal criticism I guess.
It makes even the politics board boring.
Oh well. I tried. Maybe a bit longer but I see little movement towards improvement. This morning is particularly emblematic.-
Nah. Im done for now. Its all about 1-2 liner comments which are effectively straw man attacks and erroneously perceived argumentum ad populum. Not to mention its not worth the effort now since volumes are way up in our group and we have someone retiring soon. Id have an easier time debating a catholic priest about the existence of god. You cant argue with people who believe things as a matter of faith. Ill wait until the movement self corrects or I have more time on my hands.
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My guess is we will see a shift after midterms when this blows up in the Democratic partys face. Or at the latest the next presidential election
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Quote from sartoriusBIG
My guess is we will see a shift after midterms
Not a chance.
This transformation on the value of speech and control of the platforms is now decades in the making and is sincerely held belief.
And it is a true “both sides” issues. Liberals see misinformation and hate speech as such a severe problem that restriction on that speech is worth the limitation on the speakers. Conservatives are equally aggressive in limiting speech, particularly in the educational/government spheres. And both believe that their approach is of net benefit to American society.
And there are no permanent majorities in American politics….. put the Republicans in charge of congress for a couple of years and their over-reach (on not just speech, but other issues) will prompt a similar backlash by the voting citizenry.
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Still dont understand how one is labeled as woke when they wan to cancel someone because they say crazy or racist things
But when one group wants to ban books forbid teachers from saying words or teaching certain topics because childrens feelings will be hurt ummmmm these people are considered to be patriots and good people
Thats why the original posters argument completely falls apart
Its a bad argument that is meant to apply to one side only with no questions asked
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Love labeling people as saying nothing when the OP himself cant seem to muster any sort of argument to support his statements.
Talk about accusing others as making straw man arguments
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The term strawman seems quite familiar
Especially when the one throwing it out there is creat his own strawman
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Quote from dergon
Quote from sartoriusBIG
“If youre a wokester, change my mind. If youre not then feel free to say your piece.”
1 day later …
Quote from sartoriusBIG
I think Im done with this section of the forum. Its an echo chamber with essentially the same 4 people on each thread. These 4 people are experts in manufactured issues and the propaganda of the far left. I will leave it to their expertise.
In summary:
Enter forum.
Solicit opinion of forum participants.
Forum participants give opinion.
Disregard/ show disdain for said opinion.
Leave forum.Almost sounds like that the right leaning folks would call a snowflake.
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Quote from Frumious
So you care.
Yes. -
[h1][b]Truth Social Bans Account Mocking Devin Nunes[/b][/h1]
Donald Trumps social media app, Truth Social, banned a user who tried to create an account called @DevinNunesCow, a nod to the Twitter parody account which purports to be run by a cow owned by former Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA), who is now the CEO of the new free speech social media platform, [link=https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fdonald-trump-truth-social-devin-nunes-cow-joke-censored-2022-2%3Fmkt_tok%3DNTU2LVlFRS05NjkAAAGCy6Wx9BEh7vUi4Nx-HYXnfK8DVQyo3Ej1Pm8wqHTUxbtnlMNpLtOKk7PGejw1v_sZhrQ2XwUZHFKE_A-vUtXrIRUE2odndsoZvA__L3jN-9y1]Insider[/link] reports.…
Cancel Culture.
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But muh free speech.
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[b]Cuomo Blames Cancel Culture for His Ouster[/b][/h1]
Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D), who resigned last year amid multiple accusations of workplace sexual misconduct, spoke out in public about his exit from office for the first time on Sunday and blamed the cancel culture mentality for his decision to leave, [link=https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/597068-cuomo-blames-cancel-culture-for-ouster-from-office]The Hill[/link] reports.
Said Cuomo: With cancel culture, we now live in a frightening new world where any accusation can trigger condemnation without facts, without due process. We are a nation of laws not a nation of Tweets. Social media and Twitter spread cancel culture like a virus. They allow the extreme minority to overpower the reasonable majority.-
I find it funny when dems complain about cancel culture only when it affects them.l personally. Granted some people have abused their power on both sides of the political spectrum and cant feel too sorry for them with they get cancelled.
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Them personally
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Cuomo gave us one great gift. The pervert or Italian meme.
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Quote from dergon
[b]Cuomo Blames Cancel Culture for His Ouster[/b]
Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D), who resigned last year amid multiple accusations of workplace sexual misconduct, spoke out in public about his exit from office for the first time on Sunday and blamed the cancel culture mentality for his decision to leave, [link=https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/597068-cuomo-blames-cancel-culture-for-ouster-from-office]The Hill[/link] reports.Said Cuomo: With cancel culture, we now live in a frightening new world where any accusation can trigger condemnation without facts, without due process. We are a nation of laws not a nation of Tweets. Social media and Twitter spread cancel culture like a virus. They allow the extreme minority to overpower the reasonable majority.
What got him pushed out was icompetence at CNN. They failed at burying the story. Anchor, chief marketing officer, president of the company, all involved.-
Volodymer Zelenzky…. head conductor on the woke train. Who knew?
[link=https://www.axios.com/cawthorn-ukraine-zelensky-thug-woke-ideologies-6d9ef5f4-86f9-4a44-bb79-7da30bba0ffd.html] Madison Cawthorn: Zelensky gov’t “pushing woke ideologies”
[/link]
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Putin just said that the West is trying to cancel Russia
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No, just you Vlad.
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Is that a Stand by me reference?
Because thats how my brain heard it
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Not intentionally. I’m not sure what you are referencing. Is it something that would give you particular insight into my stance if it was?
If it was confusing here it is:
My first thought when I saw your post was that the West is absolutely trying to cancel Russia. With more time I realized it was Putin whom everyone wants to cancel. Most recognize the Russian people and the country are under the control of a brutal dictator. Hard to hold them accountable.-
[link]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wko3rDPq0t0[/link]
Theres a scene in Stand by Me where Kroger Sutherlands character,Ace, the local bully punk has pushed the kids too far
And the one kid draws a gun.
Sutherland says what are going to do kid, kill us all?
And the kid says No, just you Ace.
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Quote from dergon
Is that a Stand by me reference?
Because thats how my brain heard it
I’m probably misspelling but it’s Echard Tolle. He was sort of guru. He’s a got a few books and such. I only know that because I saw it on Twitter from someone else.
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The larger point is
Putin by reference of cancel culture is directly trying to appeal to the American Right
The Fox News OAN and newsmax groups who he successfully manipulated with his trolls for the last 6-7 years
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This is the danger of the Tucker Carlsons The margorie Taylor Green Paul Gosar Madison Cawthorn Matt Gaetz etc etc etc types
They are playing for the other team
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They’re beyond the term useful idiot. That much is certain.
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Ah I see dergon. I remember that now. No, not intentional but it does apply.
DCD you are correct about the quote, but thats not what dergon was asking about.
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Quote from Chirorad84
This is the danger of the Tucker Carlsons The margorie Taylor Green Paul Gosar Madison Cawthorn Matt Gaetz etc etc etc types
They are playing for the other team
Yes, yes they are. It gives me great pleasure to see how Putin unified the home team against him and them. Many people who did not have the political courage to do the right thing are now unifying in the face of a brutal totalitarian force, two of them really.
Putin will fail in his overall mission because he underestimated the power of democracy. Same with Trump and the rest of his teammates you list.
It’s a heartening thing to watch in an otherwise horrible situation.
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Quote from Chirorad84
Putin by reference of cancel culture is directly trying to appeal to the American Right
You think?
It would have been a lot more successful if he said that before he committed war crimes. Even comrade Tucker has turned away. Does Putin really think the “American Right” is going to be his savior now?-
Yes
It worked before
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Knowing the context is important. Somehow the war crimes part is going to be an issue now.
I doubt he really thinks he will get enough support to make a difference. He does know that this will trigger more divisiveness. He also knows that tends to lead to an ununified approach. He calculated wrong this time.
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Quote from Thread Killer
Quote from Chirorad84
Putin by reference of cancel culture is directly trying to appeal to the American Right
You think?
It would have been a lot more successful if he said that before he committed war crimes. Even comrade Tucker has turned away. Does Putin really think the “American Right” is going to be his savior now?
Savior? No.
But does he think that making sure America’s divisions remain bitter and severe it is less likely that they will be able to maintain sustained bipartisan leadership that cause some domestic economic pain to the citizenry? Yes.
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Absolutely
Sew division
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I doubt he really thinks he will get enough support to make a difference. He does know that this will trigger more divisiveness. He also knows that tends to lead to an ununified approach. He calculated wrong this time.
Not sure of either of you agree with my last sentence but your last two posts sure mesh with this. -
Quote from Chirorad84
Absolutely
Sew division
Divide et impera -Julius Ceasar
Putin is a devoted student of this tactic.-
I agree with the editors of the New York Times.
[link=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/opinion/cancel-culture-free-speech-poll.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DODm8SiOMNAo6B_EGKbqNlbNY3mj-GQMNcKrJqSuZ_w6pEJ0FgQAntupyAnNIFPyAx48qVb18B4qjsD_o-4CO4KS6wMvt-z7my-E_cO2PoXPGPzSErIQ16pZRgIEX52ScI2qzPR7Ny3YR_ia9yBotoBmtVPFn8tPPrCR19PN6UPFqLukRtBbYvCXyElsWc6rkAbAxTFVrMKXt-6m8549tZU8gFaOe9d1VzPZqj3shCTzBgP4yrBJYuRoXLl7sMsbTFqBKEyMTe1OxeDDFWe5zVC0xmoAiPK7-L&smid=url-share]https://www.nytimes.com/2…7-L&smid=url-share[/link]
For all the tolerance and enlightenment that modern society claims, Americans are losing hold of a fundamental right as citizens of a free country: the right to speak their minds and voice their opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned.
This social silencing, this depluralizing of America, has been evident for years, but dealing with it stirs yet more fear. It feels like a third rail, dangerous. For a strong nation and open society, that is dangerous.
How has this happened? In large part, its because the political left and the right are caught in a destructive loop of condemnation and recrimination around cancel culture. Many on the left refuse to acknowledge that cancel culture exists at all, believing that those who complain about it are offering cover for bigots to peddle hate speech. Many on the right, for all their braying about cancel culture, have embraced an even more extreme version of censoriousness as a bulwark against a rapidly changing society, with laws that would ban books, stifle teachers and discourage open discussion in classrooms.
We believe it isnt enough for Americans to just believe in the rights of others to speak freely; they should also find ways to actively support and protect those rights.
We are under no illusions that this is easy. Our era, especially, is not made for this; social media is awash in speech of the point-scoring, picking-apart, piling-on, put-down variety. A deluge of misinformation and disinformation online has heightened this tension. Making the internet a more gracious place does not seem high on anyones agenda, and certainly not for most of the tech companies that control it.
But there is a difference between hate speech and [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/opinion/sunday/when-is-speech-violence.html]speech that challenges us[/link] in ways that we might find difficult or even offensive.
Liberals and anyone concerned with protecting free speech are right to fight against these pernicious laws. But legal limits are not the only constraints on Americans freedom of speech. On college campuses and in many workplaces, speech that others find harmful or offensive can result not only in online shaming but also in the loss of livelihood. Some progressives believe this has provided a necessary, and even welcome, check on those in power. But when social norms around acceptable speech are constantly shifting, and when there is no clear definition of harm, these constraints on speech can turn into arbitrary rules with disproportionate consequences.
At the same time, all Americans should be deeply concerned about an avalanche of legislation passed by Republican-controlled legislatures around the country that gag discussion of certain topics and clearly violate the spirit of the First Amendment, if not the letter of the law.
It goes far beyond conservative states [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/07/opinion/culture/maus-tennessee-book-bans.html]yanking books[/link] about race and sex from [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/09/opinion/book-banning-parents.html]public school libraries[/link]. Since 2021, 175 different bills have been introduced or pre-filed in 40 state legislatures which target what teachers can say and what students can learn, often with severe penalties. Of those, 13 have become law in 11 states and 106 are still under consideration. All told, 99 bills currently target K-12 public schools, 44 target higher education and 59 included punishment for violators, according to a [link=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tj5WQVBmB6SQg-zP_M8uZsQQGH09TxmBY73v23zpyr0/edit#gid=267763711]running tally kept by PEN America[/link]. In [link=https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2022/02/28/hb-1134-indiana-senate-kills-crt-critical-race-theory-inspired-legislation/9323738002/]some instance[/link]s, the proposed bills failed to become law. In other cases, the courts should declare them unconstitutional.
These bills include [link=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/opinion/florida-dont-say-gay-bill.html]Floridas Dont Say Gay bill[/link], which restricts what teachers and students can talk about and allows for parents to file lawsuits. If the law goes into force, watch for lawsuits against schools that restrict the free speech rights of students to discuss things like sexuality, established by earlier Supreme Court rulings.
The new gag laws coincide with a similar barrage of bills that ostensibly target critical race theory, an idea that has percolated down from law schools to the broader public in recent years as a way to understand the pervasiveness of racism. The moral panic around critical race theory has morphed into a vast effort to restrict discussions of race, sex, American history and other topics that conservatives say are divisive. Several states have now passed these gag laws restricting what can be said in public schools, colleges and universities, and state agencies and institutions.
Now, conservatives have used the idea of harmful speech to their own ends: An anti-critical-race-theory law in Tennessee [link=https://legiscan.com/TN/text/HB0580/id/2408921]passed last year[/link], for instance, makes lesson plans illegal if any students should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or another form of psychological distress. (Unmentioned, of course, is the potential discomfort felt by students who are fed a whitewashed version of American history.)
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Again I dont understand who exactly is Woke
Is it the terrible liberals or the patriotic Putin lovin Mericans
I honestly dont get it
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Frumi — that is dead on. The failing New York times hits it on the head.
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This is quite amusing. Im tempted to say meh like dergon did when a young woman from a university in Virginia said basically the same thing on the same pages.
Instead Ill just be glad that I can say I agree as well.
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No surprise the response based on the part Feumi quoted. How about this part:
Consider this finding from our poll: 55 percent of respondents said that they had personally held their tongue over the past year because they were concerned about retaliation or harsh criticism. Women were more likely to report doing so, 61 percent compared to 49 percent of men. Older respondents were less likely to have done so than other age groups. Republicans (58 percent) were slightly more likely to have held their tongues than Democrats (52 percent) or independents (56 percent).
At the same time, 22 percent of adults reported that they had retaliated against or were harshly critical of someone else over something they said. Adults 18 to 34 years old were far more likely to have done so than older Americans; liberals were more likely to have done so than moderates or conservatives.
Elijah Afere, a 25-year-old I.T. technician from Union, N.J., said that he worried about the larger implications of chilled speech for democracy. You cant give people the benefit of the doubt to just hold a conversation anymore. Youve got to worry about feeling judged, he said. Political views can even affect your family ties, how you relate to your uncle or the other side. Its really not good.
Roy Block, 76, from San Antonio, described himself as conservative and said he has been alarmed by scenes of parents being silenced at school board meetings over the past year. I think its mostly conservatives that are being silenced, he said. But regardless, I think it should be a two-way street. Everybody should have an opportunity to speak and especially in open gathering and open forum.
Sound familiar?
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Liberals and anyone concerned with protecting free speech are right to fight against these pernicious laws. But legal limits are not the only constraints on Americans freedom of speech. On college campuses and in many workplaces, speech that others find harmful or offensive can result not only in online shaming but also in the loss of livelihood. Some progressives believe this has provided a necessary, and even welcome, check on those in power. But when social norms around acceptable speech are constantly shifting, and when there is no clear definition of harm, these constraints on speech can turn into arbitrary rules with disproportionate consequences
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Frumi thank you for sharing that NYT editorial. If one takes the time to read the whole thing and not identify only with the items that a ripe for confirmation bias we will all be able to help improve free speech in this country.
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Im still not sure which group is Woke
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Nobody who has anything helpful to say cares.
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Quote from Chirorad84
Im still not sure which group is Woke
One side is social pressure through social media. The other side is making actual legislation that has actual legal consequences like court, fines, jail.
This is anything but a simple “both sides” do it equally argument. Democratic legislators are not making laws to punish individuals and corporations for not following their ideology, that’s all Right-wingnut work to use the government to silence critics and opposing opinions.-
So now you are arguing with the article you just posted in the same thread you posted it? Precious.
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What is precious is your lack of reading comprehension.
The article upholds the thing I said, Republicans are using government to make laws with legal consequences & penalties including loss of employment, fines & even jail to silence critics and control information.
Democrats are doing no such thing as legislators.
I suppose all this is too complicated for you to grasp the difference in scope and consequences, who it affects and how many it affects.
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Quote from Frumious
The article upholds the thing I said, Republicans are using government to make laws with legal consequences & penalties including loss of employment, fines & even jail to silence critics and control information.
The part you quoted does. Did you read the whole thing? Did you notice the conclusions the editorial board came to? No wonder they posted that opinion piece from the college senior. They are planning an ongoing discussion about how to improve things. Hint, they don’t plan the “your side is worse” attack.-
Frumi. That article ended your argument forever. I love that you ar ethe one that posted it and dergon jumped on board for support. I wonder if dergon read the whole thing before posting? It’s going to be fun to watch you denounce what it says based on your own inability to read and understand anything that does not fit your narrow definitions.
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A molehill is NOT the same as a mountain.
I know that’s difficult for you to grasp but it is true nonetheless.-
Nobody is comparing hills except you. The New York Times just called out your approach. Its the truth. Own it.
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1 above the ground is still not the same as 5,280 feet above the ground. Both are above the ground but hardly equal.
You think the Times is making the argument that both sides are doing the same thing; you are sadly mistaken. I am sure you already know that which is what makes you a hobby posting troll.
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1 above the ground is still not the same as 5,280 feet above the ground. Both are above the ground but hardly equal.
You think the Times is making the argument that both sides are doing the same thing; you are sadly mistaken. But you you already know that
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Quote from Frumious
1 above the ground is still not the same as 5,280 feet above the ground. Both are above the ground but hardly equal.
[b]You think the Times is making the argument that both sides are doing the same thing;[/b] you are sadly mistaken. But you you already know that
Nope. You are fixated on this argument, not me. The article isn’t comparing things at all.
You should read it again. They’d be embarrassed to see your response here. In fact, this is the exact thing they are bemoaning.-
I’ll quote the concluding paragraphs again because they are so true.
“Liberals and anyone concerned with protecting free speech are right to fight against these pernicious laws. But legal limits are not the only constraints on Americans freedom of speech. On college campuses and in many workplaces, speech that others find harmful or offensive can result not only in online shaming but also in the loss of livelihood. Some progressives believe this has provided a necessary, and even welcome, check on those in power.[b] But when social norms around acceptable speech are constantly shifting and when there is no clear definition of harm, these constraints on speech can turn into arbitrary rules with disproportionate consequences.[/b]
Free speech is predicated on mutual respect that of people for one another and of a government for the people it serves. Every day, in communities across the country, Americans must speak to one another freely to refine and improve the elements of our social contract: What do we owe the most vulnerable in our neighborhoods? What conduct should we expect from public servants? What ideas are so essential to understanding American democracy that they should be taught in schools? When public discourse in America is narrowed, it becomes harder to answer these and the many other urgent questions we face as a society.”
Show me where they compared one side to another and used that as an example how one side is better.
I’ve told you over and over that you are absolutely right about the idiotic anti speech laws of the right. I argued with you against CF. I’ve never once used the “one side is better or the higher hill or 1″ v 1 mile above the ground” argument. You own that one entirely.
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I just listened to Ignition by R. Kelly … and it’s still great.
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[link=https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/598818-same-sex-kiss-put-back-in-pixars-lightyear-after-disney]Same-sex kiss put back in Pixar’s ‘Lightyear’ after Disney employees’ complaint: report[/link]
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[link=https://thehill.com/opinion/education/599455-ted-cruzs-new-mccarthyism]Ted Cruz, CRT and the “New McCarthyism”[/link]
Purging libraries, of course, was the essence of McCarthyism. In March 1953, McCarthy sent his chief counsel, Roy Cohn, on a tour of U.S. cultural center libraries in Europe for the purpose of identifying and removing so-called communist books from the shelves.
Predating Cruzs critical race discoveries by almost 70 years, Cohn [link=https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=ffGPAAAAMAAJ&dq=schine++%22Definition+of+Communism%22+text&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=libraries]found[/link] the American libraries to be fairly teeming with anti-American, pro-Soviet books written by Communists and fellow travelers. Meeting with reporters in Frankfurt, for example, he [link=https://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/17/opinion/l-roy-cohn-s-descent-on-the-libraries-of-europe-798186.html]triumphantly displayed[/link] The Maltese Falcon, by the hard-boiled mystery writer Dashiell Hammett, as proof that there were indeed Communists represented in the American library.
Like Cruz at the Jackson hearing, McCarthy was determined to blame the presence of the damnable books on somebody, anybody, whether or not they had actually been aware of them. He [link=https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=ffGPAAAAMAAJ&dq=schine++%22Definition+of+Communism%22+text&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=libraries]pledged[/link] to pin down those who were directly responsible for placing the U.S. stamp of approval on a vast number of well-known Communist authors. Under orders from Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, many books stocked in our libraries throughout the world were soon removed.
…To its shame, the U.S. Senate indulged McCarthys witch-hunts for far too long, including his campaign against disagreeable reading material. McCarthys Senate Committee on Investigations unanimously [link=https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=ffGPAAAAMAAJ&dq=schine++%22Definition+of+Communism%22+text&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=libraries]backed[/link] Cohns finding of Communist infiltration of our libraries. To his credit, President Dwight Eisenhower refused to go along. [link=https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25548889.pdf]Speaking[/link] at the Dartmouth College commencement, he told the graduates, Dont join the book burners. Dont be afraid to go in your library and read every book.
Somebody on the Senate Judiciary Committee should deliver Ikes message to Ted Cruz, letting him know that his pitiful rehash of McCarthys literary investigations should be relegated to the sorry history where they both belong.[/QUOTE]Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
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I feel for these people that have to sit there and just kind of nod and smile through these hearing. I heard the clip of him asking if he could identify as an Asian. Like just SMH. Something wrong with his medulla oblongata
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